Latest / Rosters to Rings Podcast / The Coaching Carousel - Firings, Patience, and Perspective

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The Coaching Carousel - Firings, Patience, and Perspective · Rosters to Rings Podcast

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to Rosters to Rings everyone. I am Ryan mcdonoughk,
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: joined as always by fad Levine, and we have one
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: of our favorites. He's a regular on this program. You
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: know him as the former general manager of the Chargers
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: and the Raiders. That is Tom to LESCo. So we'll
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: hear from Tom in a minute. A lot going on
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: in the NFL world, in the college football world as well.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: James Franklin shockingly fired at Penn State on a three
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: game losing streak with a biot approaching fifty million dollars.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: We'll get into that as well. But that and Tom
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: and I want to start this show by talking about
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: the process of firing coaches. Hiring coaches. It is nuanced,
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: it's not always fair. There are a number of different
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: layers that go into these decisions. We identified a few
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: of the keys. Expectations. What are the expectations coming into
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: the job, obviously wins and losses, How did a coach perform?
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: Did a coach lose the locker room or the clubhouse?
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: In Major League Baseball, was there a feud with a
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: star player? Did somebody need to be the scapegoat for organization?
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: And was there a transgression, and then the big one
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: was there a conflict with the owner. That happens a lot.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: Despite winning records, you know, performance on the field or court,
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: you know, guys do get fired for different reasons. So
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: that's where I want to start the show. I know
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: you've studied this and that. One of the things that
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: I think stood out to Tom and I when we
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: were looking at the numbers is it's one thing to say, well,
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: these coaches get paid a lot of money, which they do,
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: and they're hired to be fired. These guys get fired
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: all the time, which they do. The three of us
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: have been hired and fired as general managers, so we
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: understand that better than anybody. But that the numbers you
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: came up with as far as the average tenure for
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: these head coaches and managers was pretty shocking to me. Yeah,
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: and Ryan and Tom and I just want to share
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: this with the listeners just as we start this conversation.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: I was also shocked, candidly. I mean, we've lived.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: Working in these industries forever and these numbers were pretty
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: pretty shocking. So if you look at the average tenure
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: across the five major sports, we're going to include FBS football,
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: coaches as well. NHL head coaches have an average tenure
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: of one point eight years. They're the lowest. The NBA
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: is three years, Major League Baseball three point one years,
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: NCAA FBS head coaches three point seven years, and NFL
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: head coaches lead the pack at three point eight years.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: So it's just staggering to me. These are coveted jobs.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: A lot of these guys do get second opportunities, but
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: the facts are the facts. Those are the average tenures
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: for the per position. And by and large, when you
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: inherit a team, you may be turning it around. You
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: want to create a new culture, you want to create
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: a new paradigm of like play calling. It's tough to
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: do in that short period of time. And it just
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: goes to show how hot these seats tend to be
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: from the minute you get them. And so, Tom, I
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: wanted to start off with some kind of recent news.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: We just Ryan referenced it. James Franklin loses his job
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: a story franchise in Penn State. What's your assessment of
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: what happened in that situation.
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: First of all, those numbers are amazing to me. I
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: can't believe the NFL is the model of stability when
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: it comes to head coaching or manager changes, and I
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: think college is a little bit different than professional sports.
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: But with the James Franklin situation, I actually wasn't shocked
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: at the timing of it and watching when they played
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: out here against UCLA. It was a game that we're
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: watching here more just because of being a Southern California
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: and watching how that game played out and seeing the
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: shocking look on not only James Franklin's face, but really
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: their players in the sideline, you just had the feel
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: that maybe it's time. And I think we've seen it
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: with all different head coaches and different teams. I think
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: there's sometimes you can be in one place for too long.
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: I mean he's there for twelve years. That's a long time,
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: even at the college level, and I think there's a
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: shelf life for coaches no matter your success. And watching
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: some of his press conferences the last couple of weeks,
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: it just seemed like he was a coach that he
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: was kind of ready to move on, like the constant
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: negativity starts to wear you down. He took a program
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: and really was the bridge between the Joe Bratno era
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: and where they are now because as you remember, when
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: the Joe Bratno era ended, they were on probation for
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: a couple of years for the Jerry Sandusky situation, and
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: that's when Bill O'Brien was there. So they're on probation
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: for a couple of years, you know, lost a lot
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: of scholarships, couldn't go to any bowl games. And even
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: then you heard about there's the paternal people and then
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: there's this divide and then they're the next head coach,
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: when at that time was Bill O'Brien. And honestly, actually
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: today I'm driving up to lax and it's raining today,
• 4:40
  Speaker 3: so in southern California, nobody can drive in the rain.
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: So the drive took a long time. So I'm flipping
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: around the radio and LeVar Arrington was on one of
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: the shows this morning, and you know, nobody knows Penn
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: State football better than he does, and he talks about
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: even now, there's still a divide between the paternal people
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: and the head coach, you know, which is James Franklin
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: right now with everything that James had done, so I
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: think for James Franklin, I think that just wears you
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: out after a while. And I know you know, he
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: did a great job, you know, getting that program back
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: up and running at a high level, that number two
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: ranked team in the country for a bit this year.
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: But then you know his record against top ten opponents,
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: his record against other Big ten teams that are ranked
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: the top ten, not where it would expect it to be.
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: And whenever your performance doesn't equal or even exceed your expectations,
• 5:26
  Speaker 3: change happens. And I think that's why we're seeing that
• 5:30
  Speaker 3: at Penn State right now.
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: James Frank will land on his feet somewhere, probably very
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: in a good job at some point. But you know,
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: with all the work he did there, like I said,
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: sometimes you just feel like, between the head coach, the
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: ad administrators, boosters, you could probably be at one place
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: for too long. I think twelve years was enough for him.
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: He'll move on and Penn State will move on.
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: And Tom, I think maybe one thing that we left
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: off the list that Ryan read off at the beginning
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: is exactly what you said. Sometimes things just run their course.
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: You know, relationships aren't meant to be never ending. In
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: as much as three years is a short time, sometimes
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: twelve years is a long time. And you know you're
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: reiterating the message. I think, as people who worked in
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: professional sports, our initial reaction anytime somebody gets you know,
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: let go, as you're kind of sensitive and you want
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: to defend them. But as you dig into the numbers
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: that you referenced, I mean, he was four and twenty
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: one against top ten teams, he was one in eighteen
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: against top ten big ten teams, Like those are staggering
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: numbers over a period of time, and those tell a story,
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: and so you look at it and you think, hey,
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: he did get a real opportunity here. And I think
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: this is something that Ryan said at the outset of
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: the show, which is they had exceptionally high expectations and
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: they were ranked second, you know, which was commensurate with
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: those high expectations. When you lose back to back games
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: against teams who you're favored by more than twenty points,
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: which was the first time that that had happened since
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: nineteen seventy eight, like sometimes you know, the repercussions.
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: For that absolutely, Thad. And one of the other things
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: that I think interesting is you went over the numbers
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: for average tenure. I bet if we put the median
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: tenure in there, it's even shorter. Because on the average
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: average of all of them at the high end across sports,
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: you have guys like Eric Spolstra and Steve Kerr. In
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: the NBA it was Greg Popovich was the dean of
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: coaches across all sports. Tom, in your league, Mike Tomlin,
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: you know Harbaugh, John Harbard Down and Baltimore. Those guys
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: dragged the average way up because they've been there so
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: long and had so much success. There are a number
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: of other guys like Brian Callahan and Tennessee who didn't
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: get to the middle of the year too, you know,
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: just kind of won and done. And it's really remarkable
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: to me and something I wanted to get your take on, Tom,
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: because my alma mater. I can't believe this University of
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: North Carolina tar Heels. But after five or six games
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: on a bye week, they're talking about is it time
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: to move on from Bill Belichick? And there's been this
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: circus like atmosphere around the Carolina program to the extent
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: that the Chancellor of the University of North Carolina was
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: with Bill Belichick on a Monday press conference coming off
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: of buy I don't know if I've ever seen that
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: in college football, but Tom, I want to get your
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: take on that, as much from a historical perspective as
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: from a unc specific perspective, because it seems to me
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: that I don't know if it's social media and the
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: twenty four to seven news cycle or the amount of
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: money these guys are making and how much money boosters
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: are willing to throw at bad hires or requestable decisions
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: to kind of make them go away and restart. My guest,
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: Tom's probably some combination of all of it, but it
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: seems to me, looking at it objectively, that the snap
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: decision and pressure cycle on a head coach, under fire,
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: an athletic director, even to some extent a general manager,
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: that is coming quicker and more viciously than it ever
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: has in the past.
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: It certainly seems that way. And with Brian Callahan, he
• 8:44
  Speaker 3: got six games with his quarterback cam Ward, who they
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: just drafted number one overall, So it's hard to put
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: together a plan, a development plan for the quarterback game
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: for the team in six games. So it does feel
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: like that there's less patience now than it used to be.
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: I don't know if that's true or not, of it
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: certainly feels that way, and everybody just wants everything done immediately.
• 9:07
  Speaker 3: But this is the other this is the flip side
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: of this is you look at what Mike Rabel is
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: doing in New England right now, what Liam Cohen is
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: doing in Jacksonville right now. If you're another owner, you're like, well, look,
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: they just walked into their situations which weren't great when
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: they walked in, and look where they have their team.
• 9:22
  Speaker 3: So you know, owners see that, and not only owners
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: see that, but fans see that. So it's hard to
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: preach patients when you can look across the street and
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: you see somebody doing it much quicker. But there's certainly
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: situations that you need to have the patients to build it.
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: But it's just at every level and probably every professional sport,
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: very few owners can handle that pressure, that the external
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: pressure from the fan base that want to put up
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: with the hard times. I mean, we know about Dan
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: Campbell and we start off I think Owen eleven or
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: Owen nine or something like that, and there's about three
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: or four o their coaches the same thing. They start
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: off fer to start their careers as first time head coaches,
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: and you have to weather the storm, and it's easier
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: said than done. It's very difficult to do to weather
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: the storm, especially if you start off you know, one
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: to five oh one six, the way the Jets are
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: right now, to start off like that, but that's what
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: you know. If you're going to lead an organization, whether
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: you're a GM or you're an owner, you have to
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: have some of that. You have to have some big
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: picture and some perspective on what it's going to take
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: to get there.
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: And I think it's so vital to maintain perspective, like
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: when you set up your roster for the season. As
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: a general manager, we inherently know what the talent is
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: that we're offering up to our head coach or our manager.
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: I think it's really not fair to them when we
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: then hold them accountable to a expectation that none of
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: us truly had. Like I think we have to own
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: the quality the resources we're providing them and then hold
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: them accountable accordingly, Tom, one more question I have for
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: you about the college football space is I just am wondering,
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: and this is to Ryan's point. Earlier are teams having
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: to make decisions earlier in the seasons based upon the
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: transfer portal? Because I wonder if you can't really wait
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: till the end of the season, make a coaching change
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: in a time in which there's a frenzy of putting
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: together your roster for the next year. It seems like
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: you have to have your head coach in place by
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: that point and you no longer can wait till the
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: end of the season. I wonder if that factored at
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: all into Penn State's decision, and if that's factoring at
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: all into the UNC situation and how the scrutiny is
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: levied so hard this early in the season.
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: Well, I think in the Penn State situation, and because
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: they're doing it so early, I don't think I have
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: much to do with the portal, and now that they
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: have changed the portal rules, but there is still going
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: to be that. I think it's a two week open
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: portal in mid January. But I think in Penn State situation,
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: I just think, you know, whoever made the decision, and
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: it's probably not the AD is probably more boosters around
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: the AD. They knew what the expectations were going into
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: the season, which were huge. Drew Roler could have come
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: out in the draft last year, their quarterback. You could
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: have come out in the draft last year. He decided
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: to stay in school. They have two big time running backs.
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: They went out in the portal and got the best
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: receivers that they could buy at the time. They have
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: a good offensive line. This Their expectation was a national
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: championship this year. So when you go to UCLA and
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: lose to where UCLA was at that time, CLA looks
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: a lot better now than they did three weeks ago.
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: But when you lose at UCLA and then lose Northwestern
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: at home, and the fan base was already screaming for change,
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: and they've been screaming for change, I think for a
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: number of years, just because James Franklin hasn't won enough games.
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: But we also know fan bases. They're passionate, but they
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: don't always have great perspective on what he's done there.
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: I just think they were tired of the noise and
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: they wanted to make a change, maybe even thinking that
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: that they could spark the team a little bit. Now,
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: Drew Raller's out for the year, so they're gonna have
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: a tough time getting back into this. But I think
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: you will start seeing some changes potentially, I'd say in
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: November for teams for that very reason, because of the
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: portal because you have to get your ducks in a row.
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: Just because you make that change, you may not know
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: your head coaches, and that obviously effects recruiting a lot
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: and just being out here in southern California, and you know,
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: just I spend a lot of time with high school
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: football out here and watch how recruiting is right now,
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: and there are so many players that are committed to
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: schools that will decommit because there's head coaching changes. There's
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: so many head coaching changes that will take place after
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: the season. There's so many portal changes that are happening.
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: As far as players transferring, There's just so much movement
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: in college football. But as far as Penn State, I
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: just think they got tired of the noise and just
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: want to make this move right now.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: In UCLA, you bring up the Bruins, another historic program
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: made an early season change with a Bruins legend, Toshan Foster.
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: Their former running back was a short time head coach.
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: It did not go great and they moved on from
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: him early in the season, and that's another reason to
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: do it or think about making a head coaching change.
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: Seems like the current group Tom has done relatively well
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: I know Rick new Hazel's son ecceiveing a blanket on
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: his first name, but he's seemingly getting a lot of
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: attention as the offensive coordinator. He got carried off the
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: field after the first game. And then another example that
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: the touch on an earlier point you made, Tom, is
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: what Kurt Signetti is doing at Indiana.
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: That may be.
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: Unfair to the rest of the coaches, but that I
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: think if I'm an athletic director in the Big Ten
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: for decades, I looked at the SEC and the Southern
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: teams in general. If you want to throw in Texas
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: and a few others who weren't in the SEC at
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: the time but won national championships, USC dominate if you
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: look at the national champions going back a couple decades
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: in college football, but the last couple of years the
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: Michigan Wolverines led by Jim Harbaugh and then last year
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: Ohio State led by Ryan Day. So I think with
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: nil with the money, that those Big Ten schools in
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: particular have the pressure mounts. And then they look at
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: Kurt Signetti and say, wait a minute, this guy wasn't
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: hired as a head coach till he was in his sixties.
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: Comes from James Madison and in year one as Indiana,
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: of all places in the college Football Playoff, now the
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: ranked in the top three in the country. So we
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: can debate, the three of us can debate whether that's
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: fair or not, but the reality is that is what
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: owners and athletic directors and chancellors and boosters look at,
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: and that is the standard where if you underperform expectations,
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: and that was the key to me that I think
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: in this Penn State James Franklin situation, they were among
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: the top ranked teams, if not the top ranked team
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: in the country coming in the season. The expectations were
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: sky high. The other Big Ten teams have played very
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: well this year and over the past couple of years
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: they fell short, So I think that led them to
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: have a quick trigger and pull the plug on James Franklin.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, with that question, I think he got a fair shake.
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: He was there for twelve seasons, the record did not
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: support his arguments, and then the expectations were just so
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: unfortunately he fell so short this year, and I think
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: at that point a change needs to be made. And
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: you know, I think another thing Tom alluded to this
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: earlier is just you know, there's a point in which
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: your mess which sometimes does get stale, and there needs
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: to be a new voice in the locker room. And
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: that very well maybe the case. He had a twelve
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: year run as we learned earlier, that's like three and
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: a half times longer than the average person. And he
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: was under you know, the spotlight in one of the
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: biggest programs in the country. So like to do that
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: and do it there is a tremendous accomplishment for him.
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: We probably should be focused less on why he lost
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: the job, but all the accomplishments he had along the way.
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: Tom I wanted to shift the attention. We had one
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: other firing this week. You know, you referenced it earlier.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: Bill Callahan loses his job with the Tennessee Titans. You
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: already said he didn't have much of a runway there
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: with cam Ward their number one pick this year. How
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: do you assess that situation and how does it differ
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: from the Penn State circumstances.
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: This one is just so unique, This whole situation with
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: in the last really the last three years with the Titans.
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: I mean, okay, follow me on this. This one is
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: just so unique. So they had this is three years ago.
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: They had John Robinson as a GM, Mike Rabel as
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: a head coach, both really well respected in the industry
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: and had a four year run where they you know,
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: won some division titles, made the playoffs, and then had
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: two years back to back with losing wreckers. But their
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: body at work was really really good. I don't know
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: what happened behind the scenes there, but ownership decided, you
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: know what we're gonna We're gonna let the GM go
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: and keep the head coach. Okay, fine, that happens all
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: the time. They make the move, but then they hire
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: Ran Cartin as GM. Okay, so Ran comes in and
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: after one year he decides or ownership decides, we're going
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: to fire Mike Rabel. You know, maybe he wanted to
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: have his own head coach. I don't really know. But
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: now the new GM now fires the head coach, Mike Rabel,
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: and then they hire Brian Callahan. And at the same time,
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: and this is where it gets a little bit unique.
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: The assistant GM who's there under Ran Carthin he gets
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: promoted to president obviously, I guess by ownership. Now he's
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: above the GM, and then the next year he fires
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: the GM ran Carthin and hires his own GM, Mike Borganzi,
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: and then they still have Callahan as the head coach.
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: And then the new GM or the new president or
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: the ownership they fire Callahan. So it's a constant back
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: and forth between we'll fire the GM ware the head
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: coach for the GM forare the head coach. So there's
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: you talk about no stability in an organization and that
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: that's where and that's why their roster kind of is
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: where it is right now. I mean this year. I
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: mean I watched the Titans Raiders game this weekend because
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: I have an interest in the Raiders obviously, and it
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: was a hard watch if you're a Titans fan. It
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: was just it was really it was uncompetitive. There was
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: just no juice, no energy. It was a hard watch.
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: I actually mentioned to my wife, I'm like, this is
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: hard for me to watch. I can't imagine if you're
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: a Titans fan. I think that probably led to right now, Hey,
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: we're making this move because bad losses kind of end
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: up there. You lose a Northwestern a home, that's going
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: to affect a lot of people, like Penn State did so.
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: But the for the head coach, I mean the roster
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: isn't anywhere near where it needs to be, and that's
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: because of all these changes. Changes in head coaches means
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: the scheme changes, changed in GMS means the process changes.
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: And they're just a huge talent disparity with the Titans
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: versus the rest of the league. They have a solid
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: interior offensive line. The two tackle spots are struggling. They
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: have a first round draft pick at right tackle, who
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: or jac Latham. Some of us thought he's a very
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: good player, but maybe he's more of a guard than
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: a tackle. Maybe doesn't have the feet to play outside,
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: and that's kind of showing up with him right now.
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: They put big money into the left tackle, Dan Moore,
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: who didn't have a great career early part of his
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: career at Pittsburgh, and they put a lot of money
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: into him. He was an inconsistent player at Pittsburgh. So
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: the offensive line hasn't really panned out yet. They just
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: don't have a lot of pieces on offense around the
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: quarterback yet. And defensively, they've taken a lot of shortcuts
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: and parties regime changes. I think people trying to get
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: things started quickly. So you know, we need a number
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: one corner. Well, we'll try Raide four and then pay
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: Ladarius Sneed Jerious Need. It's a lot of resources in
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: just one player when you have a whole roster you
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: need to build out. Now he hasn't played way as
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: well as he did in Kansas City. But again, it's
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: the bigger part is they use a lot of resources
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: into one player when the whole team needs to be
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: built out. So it's just a difficult situation there. Now
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: they're going to start over again. I don't know if
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: there's so now. Right now they have a president, they
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: have a GM and a head coach, and those eventually
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: have a head coach and those three will kind of
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: run the team. A lot of times the NFL is
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: a GM and the head coach partnership. This has be
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: more of like a three person I guess three person
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: headed monster, if you want to look at it that way.
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: I don't know if there's any precedent that I know
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: that The Nuggets have a unique, unorthodox, you know, for
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: an office structure. I don't know if there's any parallels there.
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: But with the Titans, there's just now it's a combination
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: of the roster. It's going to take two three years
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: to get this roster where it needs to go, and
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: at some point there's gonna have to be some stability
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: at both the front office and the head coach to
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: get you there.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: Well, I think two or three years, Tom. That gives
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: me idea for a TV show Game of Thrones Nashville
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: or the Music City Massacre. I'm still work shopping the title,
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: but it seems like warring factions, you know, at the end,
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: everybody seems to get killed, and just say they bring
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: in a new crop and let's let them fight it out.
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: But since you asked about the Denver Nuggets, I think
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: they're a good example. And then that I want to
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: get your take on the Milwaukee Brewers. You and I
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: talked about Milwaukee as well, But with the Denver Nuggets,
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: who you just brought up, Tom, a recent example of
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: a team that had a superstar, top executive and Tim Connolly,
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: who drafted Nikole Jokic, probably the best draft pick in
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: NBA history based on where he was selected in the
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: second round. Now a three time MVP, almost wanted again
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: last year, widely regard as the best player in the world.
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: So Tim Connelly drafts him. He drafts a number of
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: other talented players or trades for them Jamal Murray, Gary Harris,
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: Aaron Gordon, Michael Porter Junior, etc. And then his contracts
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: up with Denver and the Cronkys and there to they
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: have a sports empire. The owners of the Denver Nuggets.
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: They also own Arsenal, They own the Rams in your
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: league town. They own a bunch of teams, so they
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: are worried about precedent and things like that. But anyways,
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: the Minnesota Timberwolves, led by new ownership and Mark Laurie
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: and Alex Rodriguez, offered Tim Connolly a lot of money.
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: Denver makes some kind of an offer, but it's not
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: close to what Minnesota's offer is, and so Connolly takes
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: the Timberwolves offer, moves his family to Minneapolis, and since
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: then that you know, you live there. They've been to
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: the Western Conference Finals twice in the past two years.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: They've only been once ever in the history of the franchise,
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: which goes back decades and then circling back to Denver,
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: they win the championship in twenty twenty three. Do the
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: Nuggets with the core of the team that Tim Connolly
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: brought in Less than two years later, their head coach,
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: Michael Malone, and the general manager who was escalated and replaced,
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: Tim Connolly and Calvin Booth. Those two guys are at
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: each other's throats and we talk about power struggles with
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: the Titans. That is common across sports. Unfortunately, Josh Cronkey
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: and his father Stan, who run the Nuggets, basically looked
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: at both sides and said, you know what, I'm not
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: going to pick a side. We're going to fire both
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: of you guys. You're both done. We're going to start over.
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: And that's what happened. And so I bring it up
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: to that because there are different examples of organizations that
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: you know, get a lot of things wrong consistently, others
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: that get things right some of the time and wrong
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: other times. I think that's a majority of the organizations.
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: And then one that really stood out to me that
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: after talking to you about it, because they're currently playing
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: in the National League Championship Series is the Milwaukee Brewers,
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: who seem to have moved on from some of their
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: top guys, but you know, despite the departures, seem to
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: be doing quite well well.
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: You know, listening to your guys' stories, there are some
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: common themes here. But you know, Tom, when you just
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: delineate the amount of change that has happened in Tennessee,
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: like no wonder they've struggled. You know, it's impossible with
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: the backtrop of that level of instability to have consistency
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: on the field. Similarly, Ryan might take away of the
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: nuggets which is so unique? Is it is so that
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: one individual has such a profound impact. We all can
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: probably cite the people in our respective leagues. They make
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: the Hall of Fame, right, These are guys who transcend
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: systems and they just whenever they show up, they tend
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: to win. And you know, in baseball, I'm I'm thinking
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: of guys like John Hart and Pat Gillick and theo Epstein.
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: You know, these guys just kind of won in multiple
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: spots and they seem to be individuals who led almost
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: immediately to success. Well, Milwaukee's kind of the other end
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: of that spectrum. Milwaukee is what we all aspire to
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: build when we're executives, which is an environment where all
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: the employees just raise their level of excellence and excel.
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: And so you know, I'm just going to cite a
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: few people who have left Milwaukee who are excellent performers.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: These guys are undoubtedly competitive advantages in the sport. Derek Johnson,
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: was one of the foremost pitching coaches in all of
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: Major League Baseball, left them after twenty eighteen to go
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: join a division rival in the Cincinnati Reds, and you know,
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: Chris hook has taken over there and all they've done
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: since then, from that date to this is they've been
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: a top five pitching staff in the major leagues. David
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: Stearns leaves to go become the general manager of the
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: New York Mets. David Stearns is regarded as one of
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: the biggest competitive advantages as a GM in Major League Baseball.
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: All the team has done is finish in first place
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: every year since he left. And then lastly, Craig Counsel,
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: who is regarded as one of the best managers in
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: all of baseball, leaves for another division rival to go
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: to the Chicago Cubs, and since that day they have
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: ultimately won the division, the same division that they are in,
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: and their manager has won the Manager of the Year
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: in twenty twenty four and probably is in position to
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: win it again this year. So I guess my conclusion
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: as I look at that is all three of those
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: guys who left are exceptionally talented individuals. They all left
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: and somehow Milwaukee. I'm not going to sit here and
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: say they didn't miss a beat, because I'm sure there
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: were voids to fill there, but there was a kind
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: of sense of the next man. Pat Murphy has done
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: an excellent job in the club house for the Milwaukee Brewers,
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: Matt Arnold has availed himself as one of the best
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: general managers in the game, and Chris Hook has had
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: tremendous success. So I think we all aspire to build
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: those situations which have these systems that transcend to any
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: one individual. If you don't have a Tim Conley, if
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: you don't have a Pat Gillick, if you don't have
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: a Mike Tomlin, you probably need a system that works well.
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: The Milwaukee Brewers are that example in Major League Baseball.
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: That's pretty cool. Is just as far as just like
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: professional development, career development of people in your organization and
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: then have them move on and then be successful. That's
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: that's just the mark of a really strong develop organization because,
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: as you guys know, is as GM of a professional team,
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: I mean, you have to develop the people that are
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: below you, fully knowing that they may leave and go
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: help somebody else. But that's part of our job is
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: to develop. I mean I was developed as a as
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: a young scout by Bill Pollying. And Bill did that
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: with a lot of staffers, the GM at the Browns,
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: at Andrew, i mean Bill's son, Chris Polling. There's a
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: whole bunch of us that he mentored within his kind
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: of his system and his philosophies. And then we kind
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: of take that and to move on. But that's just
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: a sign of a strong organization the way the Brewers
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: do that.
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: I think we all benefited from that that, you know,
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: with the Boston Celtics, where I started out, a historic
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: organization led by a great executive and Danny Ainge like Tom,
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: you know, with Indianapolis being around Bill Pollion. From our
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: group with the Celtics, we had at least three guys
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: off the top of my head on that staff, myself,
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: Chris Wallace who went on to become the general manager
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: of the Memphis Grizzlies, and Darryl Morey, who went on
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: to be the GM of the Houston Rockets now runs
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: the Philadelphia seventy six ers. On the coaching side Tom Thibodeau,
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: who all our listeners know who Tom is given his
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: work in Chicago, Minnesota and now New York. And then
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: Lawrence Frank, who was an assistant replaced Tom just for
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: one year, got the head coaching job in Detroit with
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: the Pistons, now runs basketball operations for the LA Clippers.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: You know, all those guys came off one stand off
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: with the Celtics and that, you know, talking to you
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: a little bit about I think most of our listeners
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: remember you, certainly from Minnesota, mainly from before that going
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: back to your Texas days, but a lot of them
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: probably don't realize the younger ones is you know your
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: start with the color rock brought a Rockies and just
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: how loaded that staff was that you were part of
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: as a young employee getting your start in the business.
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I just want to echo what you guys are saying,
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: like such appreciation I have for my first opportunity. I
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: worked with Dan O'Dowd was the general manager of the
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: Colorado Rockies, and we ended up building out a staff
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: there and that was a time where I think we
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: only had fifteen people working in the front office. And
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: I got a chance to work with a lot of
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: general managers, guys who wanted to be general managers. Jerry Depoto,
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: who's still in the playoffs with the Seattle Mariners right now,
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: Josh Burns, Michael Hill, Matt Clintech, Billy Eppler, John Daniels,
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: a guy who went on to become a manager, who's
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: been on our show, Scott's Service, And it's like you
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: just look back on those times and you know, getting
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: to work with so many people who went on to
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: become general managers. I've often thought there should be a
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: wing of every sports Hall of Fame for the guy
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: who has cultivated more people who have gone on to
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: have success than other people have, because it's such it
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: impacts so many people's lives. And you know, Tom, I
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: think we all grew up in an era where people
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: talked about Bill Walsh and his family tree, and then
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: the incredible number of people who somehow have worked for
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: the Washington Commanders, past tense Redskins who went on to
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: become successful head coaches. Nowadays, these these leaders who cultivate
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: these environments where you can become the best version of
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: yourself and then promote your candidacy, whether it's with that
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: own organization or someone else in the industry. I think
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: they're so magnanimous and they're so uniquely skilled, and I
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: think they deserve real consideration in the Hall of Fame.
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: You know, we're all a product of who we learned from.
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: So like for me, like I learned the ex'es and
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: O is a football from my high school coaches and
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: college coaches. And then I learn everything about the NFL
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: roster building, team building, everything that goes into running an
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: NFL team from Bill Pulling and Chris Pulling. If I
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: had to come up in a different organization with with
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: maybe a different GM, maybe I wouldn't have learned nearly
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: as much. I probably wouldn't have so, And I know
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: when I when I first became JAM with the Chargers,
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: you know, I was forty forty one years old, first
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: time GM. About a year in I kind of looked
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: around and I thought to myself, I'm not doing enough
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: with our younger staffers, scouting assistance area scouts to kind
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: of develop and get them ready. But then I'm thinking myself, like, look,
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: I'm a first time GM, Like I got a lot
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: of stuff going on. Like you know, with Bill, it
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: was just kind of natural. Now Bill had been in
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: the job for a long time. Bill could mentor us
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: when when he didn't even know he was mentoring us.
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: And then as I grew into the job and was
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: there longer, I'd tried to do a better job of
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: making sure we're developing our young our young staffers. Jojo
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: Wooden is our director player of personnel. He did a
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: better job than I did. I just I got caught
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: up in so much of the job, but what had
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: to be done. I kind of lost that development part.
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: That's why it.
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: Guess it's so hard to do, which is why Bill's
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: in the Hall of Fame. But it's such a big
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: part of not like growing the game, but just growing
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: your staff and with morale and trying to help everybody
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: kind of move up. But it's a unique skill to
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: have that some people have, and Bill had it. I
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: didn't quite have it as much, but he was tremendous
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: at it.
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: Well.
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of that comes with time and
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: experience you go into the job, the comfort of it.
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought up that point because I think
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: a lot of our listeners who have not worked for
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: teams probably don't realize so much of your job is
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: prioritization and how do you manage your time because you
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: can't do all of it. You can't be all things
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: to all people. I think the three of us who
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: came up as grinders and kind of started at the
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: bottom of the organizations then climb the ladder rung by run.
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: We're used to rolling up our sleeves and trying to
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: do everything, and then you realize pretty quickly when you're
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: in that top chair you just can't. There aren't enough
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: hours in the day. You have to delegate, you have
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: to mentor you have to assign things to certain people
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: and live with the results. Tom One interesting trend that
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: that and I we're talking about in the NFL that
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: we'd love to get your opinion on. Are you know
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: we talked early in the show about how quick the
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: decision cycle moves, especially on head coaches. It also seems
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: to move reve to quickly on quarterbacks, especially young quarterbacks.
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: I think the best example now, and we're not trying
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: to pick on any one team, but what was the
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: Cleveland Browns with what they've gone through Sean Watson situation,
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: the kind of revolving door, you know, Shader Sanders Dylan Gabriel,
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: all of that and the cruel irony of it. Tom,
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: as a sports fan who follows the NFL relatively closely
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: but doesn't know it nearly as well as you, is
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: the guy that they deemed as the guy years ago.
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: Baker Mayfield is now down in Tampa Bay, dominating the
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: league and on the short list of MVP candidates. So, Tom,
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: what do you attribute that to? Mac Jones? What he's
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: done in San Francisco, I think would shock a lot
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: of Patriots fans who are really tough on him as
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: a young player. Why do you think some of these
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: guys who are getting a chance with either second, third,
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: or even fourth team, maybe in the case of Baker Mayfield,
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: or things are finally starting to click and they're starting
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: to thrive in new environments.
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: You know, sometimes it's just right place, right time, right situation,
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: right coordinator, right talent around them. And then also the
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: fact that every player kind of develops at a different
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: at a different speed. And yeah, I think we're seeing
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: between Sam Donald justin well, probably not so much justin
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: fields at this point, because Sam Donald, mac Jones, Daniel Jones,
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: Baker Mayfield. It's almost like that, like that that rehab process, like,
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: all right, it didn't work at my first team. It
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: could have been for a number of reasons, but the
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: production just wasn't there. And you look at what Daniel
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: Jones did didn't work out in New York. He got
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: released during the middle of the season last year. Is
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: a point where when I was with the Raiders, we
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: tried to sign and put him on the active roster,
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: just trying to improve our quarterback situation. He decided to
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: go sign the practice squad with Minnesota and essentially rehab
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: a little bit like a professional football rehab, learned something different,
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: learned from Kevin O'Connell, and then be a free agent
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: and then try and find the place where I have
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: the best chance of success, the team with the with
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: the most talent, and the team where I can go
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: actually compete for a job. And Daniel Jones goes to
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: the Colts with a chance to compete for the job,
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: and he wins the job, and you know, he's doing
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: extremely well. They're with five and one Baker Mayfield. Pretty
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: kind of similar as far as I got to find
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: a place to go where I can compete for a job.
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: And then obviously he took a couple more teams to
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: get there, but he gets to Tampa with the right
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: players around him, the right coordinator, and he's taken off.
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: But everybody develops at a different amount of time. Is
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: there a lot of patience when you draft a quarterback high? No,
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: there probably isn't, which is why you probably see some
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: of these changes, probably a little bit quicker than you'd like.
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: But if it's not working, it's not working from from
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: that team standpoint. So trying to figure out where that
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: that balance point is of when you when you make
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: a move on a quarterback and play somebody else is difficult.
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: But we're certainly seeing Like all those quarterbacks we mentioned,
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: they're all high draft picks, so they all had talent
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: in college. But sometimes you just got to get in
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: the right environment. And when I look at say, you know,
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: Daniel Jones with the Colts, he has a head coach
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: and Shane Stiken, who is an awesome offensive play caller.
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: He has an outstanding running back behind him, Jonathan Taylor.
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: You know that's this sa Kwon Barkley from the Giants.
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: Essentially very similar players, a really good offensive line. They
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: have a tight end from Penn State, Tyler Warren, who
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: was a rookie who was outstanding. They have a good
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: receiving course, he has a lot of talent around him,
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: and he's playing very well. So the big thing is
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: just got to get in the right spot. You know,
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: a nice stable program. And unfortunately, when you're say you're
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: a team picking first in the draft, that usually means
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: you've had a pretty poor year of the year before
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: and it may not be the most stable situation. And
• 35:48
  Speaker 3: we've seen some of the recent first first overall picks
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: a quarterback. Those head coaches haven't lasted very long because
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: I think people expect results immediately when you draft the
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: quarterback number one, and it's not always going to be immediate,
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: so you see those changes happen. But I got to
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: assume this has happened over the years, last thirty forty years.
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: It just seems like it's happening more now than it
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: ever has.
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: Right. I was blown away by your reference to Baker
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: Mayfield because as a fan, once again not somebody who
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: studies at the NFL like you do, Tom, it seemed
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: like he was the cautionary tale out of the draft
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: of like, this is how you don't draft a quarterback
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: high and set him up to not succeed, and no,
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: all of a sudden he's on the other side of
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: the factru where I'm guessing every scout room is, hey,
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: go find us the next Baker Mayfield, and that's where
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: you get all these guys getting these second and third opportunities. Tom,
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: I was wondering if you could take us into your
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: decision when you were a general manager, you draft Justin
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: Herbert in the first round? Refresh us like, how quickly
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: did you get him on the field and what went
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: into your decision as to when was the appropriate time
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: to balance the notion of development. I think Green Bay
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: has always given so much credit for Aaron Rodgers sitting
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: behind Brett and then Jordan Loves sitting behind Aaron Rodgers.
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: Most teams don't do it that way. I think ideally
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: you would love to do it that way. But to
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: your point, most guys are getting drafted in the first
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: round now are playing if not week one, you know
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: Dart's playing week three or four. How was you How
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: did you approach it with Justin Herbert?
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: It's really interesting because you know there's different ways to
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: look at should they sit immediately, should they sit behind
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: a veteran first, should they play early? I think it's
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: different for every situation and different for every quarterback. Now,
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: with Justin Herbert, the plan was, believe it or not,
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: was he was going to sit behind Tarrod Taylor. We
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: had signed Tyrod from Buffalo. He'd actually gone to the
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: Pro Bowl, I think with Buffalo the year before. Anthony
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: Lynn knew Tyrod Taylor very well. Tarad is outstanding leader
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: in tangible's pretty mobile quarterback, quick release like. He has
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: some some starter level skills, and the thought was we're
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: gonna sign him. Let Justin kind of learn from Taylor,
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: and Taylor was going to play play it out now.
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: We didn't have a specific Hey, we want Justin to
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: sit for a year. We never really talked about time frame,
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: but at least initially in training camp and this was COVID,
• 38:19
  Speaker 3: so in training camp, to Rod was the number one,
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: Justin was the number two. Justin had some just coming
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: from a college offense to a pro offense. There's just
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: a lot of transition. There's a lot of you know,
• 38:29
  Speaker 3: just little things like taking a snap under center, the
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: play calls coming in. It's no longer we're in college
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: where a lot of teams just hold up a big
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: billboard in a sideline with four pictures on there, and
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: you picked in one of the pictures is live, and
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: that's to play like it's the play calls are along,
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: you're in a huddle. The cadence is different. There's a
• 38:47
  Speaker 3: lot of things to learn. So we're going to take
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: our time with him. And Taylor was was going to
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: be the starter. The funny thing is we had no
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: preseason games that year, so he had no live work
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: against other teams. So we thought this was the right
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: move to make that Taylor is the starter number one,
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: and Justin will be the backup and then lo and
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: behold to Rod. Taylor in game one had a bruise
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: or broken ribs in game one, and then Game two
• 39:13
  Speaker 3: against Kansas City is when the unfortunate incident when when
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: he was getting some i'll say a medical procedure on
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: his ribs that didn't work exactly the way we had anticipated,
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: and Justin comes in the game drives us down for
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: a score this first drive in the game. By the way,
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: that was the first time any of his teammates are
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: coaches that'd seen him play live football because we didn't
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: have any preseason games. So he does that and everyone's like, okay,
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: it's I mean, it's not hard to see sometimes when
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: you have a guy. But he did that really with
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: no warning. This is about a minute or two before kickoff. Hey,
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: you're in, drives us down, gets a score. We end
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: up losing a tight game at the end, and then
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: the rest is history. He's in there, he plays the
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: rest of the year, and I think he was Rookie
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: of the Year. So but look, we were not smarter
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: than anybody else. I thought was he's going to sit
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: for a while he wasn't ready. Well guess what, he
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: was ready, which is why there's a lot of amazing
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: things about Justin. But the fact that one training camp,
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: no preseason games, and he's out there in Week two
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: against the Kansas City Chiefs and playing at a high level.
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: It's just an amazing feat. But every situation a little
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: bit different, just based on where you are. Like with
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: the Giants, look at this point, Jackson Dart, it probably
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: could help him to sit and learn, but he's their
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: best quarterback right now, So how do you not play
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: your best quarterback? And that's what happens a lot of
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: times with these moves.
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: Well, another interesting angle there, Tom, going back to what
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: we were talking about earlier, is objectively looking from the outside,
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: it seems like there is a decent amount of pressure
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: on Brian dabol the head coach in the GM. I
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: think Joe showns his name. There's pressure on those guys. So,
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: as a head coach or an executive, if you have
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: a young player who's developing and you can point to say, well, now,
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: I know the when lost record isn't what we hope
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: they would be, but we're going to build around this guy.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: What every team is looking for. And frankly, as a
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: head coach or executive, that can buy you more time
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: and give you a longer runway to kind of, you know,
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: try to finish what you started, Tom, or to kind
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: of see through, you know, the promising start to a
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: young player's career.
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and you have to, like, you know, if you
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: draft a quarterback high in the first round and you
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: already have a veteran there and you decide to start
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: the veteran, you have to know with that veteran quarterback,
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: the first interception, the first loss, there's gonna be so
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: much external pressure and internal pressure even in the building. Hey,
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: we draft the quarterback in the first round. He's talented,
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: it's time to get him out there. And which is
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: why I know with Justin Herbert, I did not want
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: to say, hey, we want to sit him for a year.
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: We want to sit him for ten or twelve weeks
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: like because things happen, things change. So with the Giants,
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: you know, as soon as Russell Wilson has a has
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: an off series and off half and the fans start booing,
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: they want the number one pick in there. We've seen
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: this play out plenty of times with other teams. You
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: draft a quarterback high, people want to see him play
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: inside the building and outside the building. So the pressure
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: comes on and they're in there quickly and Jackson dark
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: can handle it. But there's some other quarterbacks if you
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: play them through, really it's just hard to handle. But
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: you have to know that going in.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: And I think we keep adding to the list of
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: reasons why we make decisions, but pressure certainly is one
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: of them. The owner applies a lot of pressure to
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: the general manager. The general manager in turn applies a
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: lot of pressure to the head coach, who in turn
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: applies a lot of pressure to the quarterback. For instance,
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: in this case, and we all aspire to absorb all
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: of that pressure and not defray it to other people
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: and or have an impact or decision making. But we're
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: all human, you know. I always looked at it sometimes
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: in baseball when you're scrutinizing the development of a franchise
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: and you see them make a very dramatic turn every
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: three or four years that you think, oh, I guess
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: that must be the contract here for this guy, and
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: he just pitched his owner on a total new plan
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: that they're now embarking upon to to get the next
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: three to four year contract. Well, you know, the reality
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: is there is a lot of pressure that's applied to us.
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: We do the best we can to not defray that
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: to other people, be the lightning route for the whole organization,
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: But at times it does influence our decisions and we
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: start short short changing things when we know development is
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: the right track. But we have to give way to
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: the notion of what's the most competitive team I can
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: put on the on the field, the court, what have
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: you tonight, And it usually involves that superstar young player
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: who's probably not ready for the opportunity, but just has
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: more talent than some of the other.
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: Options, and that becomes a battle at times, as you
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: guys know, between the front office, who said, go ahead,
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: play the young guys. We brought them in, we believe
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: in them, and the head coach says, well, wait a minute,
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: I'm going to be judged don wins and losses. You know,
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: I'm not taking a bunch of losses. If you guys
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: are going to fire me anyways, I'm not, you know,
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: trotting out a bunch of young guys getting our asses
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: just like the Browns right now, yeah, yeah, and then
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: you probably make a change. And even if one of
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: the young players said that we're is Dylan Gabriel, Shader, Sanders, whoever, Tom,
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: even if they developed, they're not going to develop for
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: me as a head coach. If I'm you know, Kevin
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: Stefanski in this example, right, it's gonna be the next
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: guy who reaped the benefits of that. And I think
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: that that is that is real across sports. And you know,
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: just Pipen we talked about earlier town. But I think
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: that pressure is exacerbated given how quickly some of these
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: things move. I mean, I didn't have to go back
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: very far when we were talking about the Tennessee Titans.
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: Earlier in the show. I remembered some of these names
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: off the top of my head. But my goodness, you
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: had at least four or five general managers and head
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: coaches since like twenty twenty one, you know, So that's
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: that's the reality approach sports today. You know, we had
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: different length tenures. I was the shortest of the GM
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: at just under five and a half years. But the
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: three of us those look like, you know, I don't know,
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: dinosaur like ages, so compared to some the opportunities, some
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: of these guys get or don't get where the doors
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: open today and it slams shut tomorrow, and the reality
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: is tom a lot of these cases, Unfortunately, some guys,
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: even if it's a very short tenure. We'll see what
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: happens with Brian Callahan, but some guys never get to
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: be head coach or GM again. And really, if you
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: look at it objectively, judging somebody on that small of
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: a sample size is probably not very fair to that individual.
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: It's really difficult.
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, you know, I I was looking at
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: from our last episode, we talked about the Anaheim Angels.
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: They're perhaps to hire their fifth manager since twenty nineteen.
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: That's also about the number of years there has been
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: since twenty nineteen. I was look at a Major League
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: Baseball as a whole. If you look at it, once
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: all the openings are filled. You know, the San Diego
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: Padres now have an opening. We have another eight guys
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: on them. Are eight teams on the market. Going into
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty six, fourteen teams will have managers that have
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: been in their posts for less than two years. There
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: are only thirty teams in the major leagues, fourteen of
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: them are going to be that short tenured. I mean it, really,
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: it's remarkable when you look at the numbers. Right now,
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: there's not a ton of job security. And I remember
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: when I started my career Josh Burns, who was a
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: mentor of mindset. Your contract is financial security, it's not
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: job security. Your job performance is your job security. And
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: you hope to work long enough and have enough of
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: a reputation that you can stay in your industry for
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: a while. But you're not entitled to work for one
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: team in perpetuity, and that's certainly playing out right now
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: in Major League Baseball.
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: I think our advice to head coaches or gms is
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: rent don't buy you know, rom month to month. If
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: you can do it, you know, keep your furniture mobile,
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: you know you can, you can move somewhere else. That
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: one question I had for you. We're recording this show
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: early on in the League Championship Round, the final four
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: of Major League Baseball, so Tom and I would love
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: to get your opinion. Put you on the hot seat
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: a little bit as far as what do you think
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: is going to happen. You know, Seattle's off to a
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: lead in the ALCS, the Dodgers up early in the NLCS.
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: Thatad put on your your tinfoil hat and project out
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: a couple of weeks in the future. Who's in the
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: World Series, who's the champion? And in no way do
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: we promise that we're not going to replay this if
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: you're completely wrong on the show a couple of weeks
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: from now. Just to show how little you know about
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: Major League Baseball.
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm going to I'm going to rewind three days
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: because my dad, Michael Levine, my son Quinn Levine, and
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: I have a text stream and we've been picking every
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: single one of these games as it's gone, as it's gone.
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: So I'm going to tell you what I did at
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: that point, and not benefit from the three games that
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: have been played. So when we did this, I was
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: picking with my heart. In my head a little bit differently.
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: So you know, as we all can attest, we all
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: have a lot of friends in the game. I really
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: wanted to see Seattle make it to the World Series.
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: That are the only franchise in Major League Baseball to
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: not actually show up in the World Series. They've never
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: been to the World Series, never won a World Series.
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: I think it would just be wonderful for that franchise,
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: for that fan base, for that community, to get a
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: chance to at least play in the World Series. So
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: with my heart, I was picking the Seattle Mariners. My head, though,
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: I was really on the side of the Toronto Blue Jays,
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: mostly because Seattle had just played this amazing, knockdown, dragout
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: game in their winner, take all Game five against the
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: Detroit Tigers, in which they played fifteen innings, they pitched
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: almost their entire starting rotation. Then they had to hop
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: on a plane for twenty three hundred miles to get
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: to Toronto and play it about twenty four hours later.
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: So I thought they were going to be kind of
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: playing on fumes compromise. From a starting pitching standpoint, Toronto
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: was totally arrested. They had their number one and two
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: starters and Seattle was going to have to like piece
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: it together, you know, duct tape and a little bubble
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: gum to get through those first two games. Well, they
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: end up winning the first two games. Now they come
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: home and really in the driver's seat. A lot of
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: unfinished business. But the numbers are prohibitive. When you win
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: the first two games on the road, you are a
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: prohibitive favorite to win. So my heart was with Seattle.
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: My head was with Toronto. Looks like my heart maybe
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: winning that right now. And then it's so hard to
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: pick against the Los Angeles Dodgers. The depth of that
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: franchise is so exceptional. I think it's a better team
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: than they had last year when they won the World Series.
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: They're starting rotation right now, which is healthy. Is frightening,
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: you know the Snell bi Like Snell pitched an eight
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: inning gem last night. You got Sho hey o Tani.
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: You've got a healthy Tyler Glass. Now you've got Yamamoto.
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: And then what is probably another top three starter for
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: most other franchises, Roki Sasaki is closing out these games.
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: That is an extremely formidable rotation to go with, you know,
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: three or four Hall of famers who just are sitting
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: in the middle of their batting order. I think it's
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: gonna be very tough. I'd love to see Milwaukee prevail,
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: just because they're kind of more of that team first
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: rather than star led team. But I think it's going
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: to be the Dodgers. I'm gonna stick with my heart
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: now that I have the benefit of the two games
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: in say Seattle. But if I'm being honest, I'd pick
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: Toronto and and the Los Angeles Dodgers to meet up
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: in the World Series.
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: I would have picked the same fat, the Toronto and
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: the Dodgers. In fact, despite the odds, I'm still going
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: with Toronto down O two. I probably went a lot
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: of money in Vegas if I actually bet on such things.
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: If the Blue Jays come back and win the series,
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: which now they'll almost certainly get swept, and I'll look
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: like a fool making that prediction. But to me fat
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: as a layperson and you know, a fan of all sports,
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: the Dodgers, you know, they look a little bit different.
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: I think sometimes when you watch these teams, these star
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: studded teams. You know what Blake Snell did in Game
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: one the other night, and just you know, look up
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: and down the lineup. They have stars, and they have
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: guys who you know, Otani, Bets and whoever. And I
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: can trast that with Milwaukee. And that's why the fan
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: of all sports part of me would love to see
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: Milwaukee win it for the reasons you mentioned earlier. Seemingly
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: a great franchise top to bottom, who builds things the
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: right way with depth, and they draft well and developed
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: well and manage well and a lot their money very
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: well given how successful they are best record major League Baseball.
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: But tom, as you know, sometimes when you get down
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: to it, in the final four in particular, it's who
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: has the best guys, And Dodgers have won two titles
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: since COVID I think twenty twenty and then again last
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: year in twenty twenty four. And to me, as a
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: fan of baseball, say, oh, yeah, that team looks a
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: little bit different. Those guys look a little bit different. Yes,
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: they have the biggest payroll in the league and have
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: some huge advantages, but I don't know if that you know,
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: we ask you for the World Series, pick Toronto and La.
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: I'm going to go Toronto in La, but I'm going
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: to go with La over whoever to win World Series,
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: just because to me, I think, you know, the way
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: Snell is pitching in with their their team, they look
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: they look pretty loaded. Tom, how closely you follow MLB,
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: but if you have an opinion on any of those
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: four squads.
• 51:11
  Speaker 3: Well, I'm a baseball fan by no means and experts,
• 51:15
  Speaker 3: so I handicapp it a little bit differently. So I
• 51:17
  Speaker 3: live in southern California. I got to know Dave Roberts
• 51:20
  Speaker 3: when he's with the Padres. He's a friend of mine,
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: huge football fan, big Charger fan. So you know, you guys, know,
• 51:27
  Speaker 3: you know, when you work at professional sports, usually root
• 51:30
  Speaker 3: for people that you know more so than teams, just
• 51:34
  Speaker 3: because as you start to because we all know what
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: we what we all go through. So I'm Dodgers. And
• 51:40
  Speaker 3: then since I grew up in Buffalo and used to
• 51:42
  Speaker 3: go to Exhibition Stadium to see the Blue Jays play
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: every now and then when Tony Fernandez was a short stop,
• 51:46
  Speaker 3: I used to love Tony Fernandez and I was a
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: short stop growing up, So I go Blue Jays Dodgers.
• 51:52
  Speaker 3: That's kind of how I handicap it as a real
• 51:55
  Speaker 3: lay person when it comes to baseball.
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: Well, one thing I just want to add to this
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: that maybe the average fan doesn't realize is just how
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: electric the fan bases are in Seattle in Toronto, Like,
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: I think it would be wonderful to see those types
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: of teams on the big stage and just have fans
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: understand like these are rabid fan bases, so overdue for
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: the opportunity. You know that Toronto Blue Jays won the
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: World Series twice in the early nineteen nineties, haven't been
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: back since. Seattle's never been one of those two teams
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: will be represented in the World Series. It's going to
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: be wonderful to see those fan bases on full display
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: in the World Series. Right, I want to shift your
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: attention to the preseason. The NBA is winding down, the
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: season's about to start. We learned last week how gifted
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: you and your younger sister were in helping your father
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: pick games. Are what's striking you as some of the
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: over unders on the win totals heading into the NBA season.
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: Anything jumping out to.
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: You, Yeah, So Tom Thad and I talk about this
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: all the time when people ask us, even when we're
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: a general manager of teams, what do you think is
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: going to happen tonight? If I was honest, I say,
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: I have no idea. I imagine it was the same
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: way in the NFL, where when I was with the
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: Boston Celtics or Phoenix Suns, we'd have a morning practice,
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: we'd be crisp and then get blown out that night,
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: or the opposite happened. I was sloppy, it was unfocused.
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: I think we're going to get drilled and then we
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: come out and blow out the opponent. So I bring
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: that up because whenever my buddies asked me, I imagine
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: you guys get asked as well in your respective sports. Hey,
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: what do you think is going to happen in this
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: game tonight? Especially my degenerate friends who gamble on just
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: about everything. I said, Look, don't ask me. I have
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: no idea what's going to happen in this game tonight. However,
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: I would say that over time, I think I have
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: a decent feel for what's going to happen. So let
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: me give you guys three overs in the NBA that
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: stood out that as far as the season win totals.
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: They call it over and under. How many games these
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: teams are going to win out of the eighty over
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: the eighty two game regular season, so the three overs.
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: I like that.
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: The Golden State Warriors at forty five and a half.
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: They traded for Jimmy Butler mid season last year from
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: the Miami Heat. From that point on, they were twenty
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: three and seven with Jimmy in the lineup. They still
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: have Steph Curry and Draymond Green and Steve Kerr, all
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: of whom are going to the Hall of Fame. That
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: twenty three and seven record came along with the third
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: best net rating in the league. So I think forty
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: five and a half is too low in Golden State.
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: Another team kind of this hovered around five hundred the
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: last few years, the Chicago Bulls. They're over under is
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: thirty two and a half, and I don't think people
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: were paying as close to attention as they should at
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: Chicago was one of my favorite teams to watch last year.
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: They traded some veterans in de mar de Rozan and
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: Zach Lavine. They brought in Josh Giddy last offseason at
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: point guard. He really thrived in a Bulls uniform, so
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: Chicago for me, guys, thirty two and a half, that's
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: too low. This team has won between thirty nine and
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: forty games the last couple of years, and they finished
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: last year with a young team on an upswing seventeen
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: and ten after they traded Zach Lavine. So I like
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: to over from the Bulls and the final one New
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: Orleans and over the thirty and a half. We know
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: the issues that Zion Williamson has had in New Orleans
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: staying in shape, staying healthy. But this is a talented team.
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: We'll see what happens with the John t Moury, how
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: he looks when he comes back, but Herb Jones, Trey
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: Murphy on the wing. This is one where I think
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: people look at the record and do a lot of
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: it based on last year's record. Well, I think they
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: were the most injured team as far as your stars
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: and your rotational players. They lost the most talented minutes
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: to injury. In terms of the guys who actually play
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: for you in your rotation, I think they were leading
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: the league by a mile. So if you bank on
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: regression to the mean, those guys come back, they stay healthy,
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: they play Zion is motivated, which hopefully he is with
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: the new front office in place who did not draft him.
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: I like New Orleans stat as my third thirty and
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: a half is too low. I think they easily exceed
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: that win to.
• 55:44
  Speaker 3: We need a draftking sponsorship or fan duel or something.
• 55:47
  Speaker 3: That's some good info right there.
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: I appreciate it.
• 55:50
  Speaker 3: Him.
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: Do you run all this by your sisters what we
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: were really dying to know? Yeah?
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: I did.
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: I did.
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: I think, you know, she loves the restaurants in San Francisco,
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: Chicago and New Orleans, you know, I think how she
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: tends to pick him great cuisine in those three cities.
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: And yeah, Tom, I completely agree with what you said.
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: As far as a sponsorship, we could use a betting sponsor.
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: We would make every segment, you know, some kind of
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: sports betting involved here. So just to finish the thought,
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: I'll give you guys the two unders. And I hate
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: to and this is the tough part for the three
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: of us, right saying these teams aren't going to be
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: as good. But frankly, I think the two teams I pick,
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: they know they're not going to be very good. I'm
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: not telling anything they don't know. The first is the
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: Washington Wizards at twenty one and a half. I know
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: that's a low total, but basically, guys, what I'm fairly
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: certain they're going to do is play one of the
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: youngest rotations in NBA history. They're gonna play a bunch
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: of teenagers against men. They've already bought out one of
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: their veterans in Marcus Smart this offseason, who's now a
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: member of the LA Lakers, other veterans like CG. McCollum
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: and Chris Middleton. I think if those guys play well,
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: then Washington will trade them to get more draft picks
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: and young players, or if there's no trade, they'll just
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: buy them out and then play even more young guy.
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: One other factor leading me to lean toward the under
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: for the teams with low projected totals anyways, is the
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty six NBA Draft that's coming up in June
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: is absolutely loaded. We'll talk about that on rosters Rinks
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: here later this season, but looking at it based on
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: the body of work from these guys playing high school
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: aau USA basketball, you get familiar with names like Darren Peterson,
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: Cam Boozer, who's Carlos Boozer's son, AJ demants at BYU
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: and others Nate Aman to Tennessee mckel brown. Here at
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: Louisville is not just a one player draft either. There
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: are five or six guys at the top of this
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: draft to in the preseason look like studs. So I
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: think Washington at twenty one and a half and then
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: Brooklyn the Nets at twenty and a half, who became
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: the first team ever to draft five first round picks,
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: and all my hand up here admitting I was wrong
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: as far as you know draft previews on here, in
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: serious XM and some of the different media stuff I do.
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: I said there's no way they actually draft five guys
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: in the first round because nobody's ever done that. Well,
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: they did it, and they're going to play those guys.
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: So keep in mind, if you draft five rookies, that's
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: a third of your roster. That combined with loaded draft,
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: combined with the fact that they traded away Cam Johnson
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: it was the best player last year. And like Washington,
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: I think they look to trade other vets to free
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: up minutes for young guys and bring in more draft
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: picks and young players. So I like those two under
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: I know the totals are low Washington and Brooklyn, But
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: I think it's going to be a struggle, guys, for
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: those two teams to win any significant amount of games.
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: Well, Ryan, I think you shed light on a few
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: things that are worth conversation, and maybe it's for future episodes,
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: but the Washington Wizards is certainly a franchise that has
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: struggled for a prolonged period of time. A dissection of
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: them maybe something on the horizon for us. But then also,
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: how do you govern your franchise when there is a
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: loaded draft coming up? I think does influence us a
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: little bit. You know, Washington and or Brooklyn may be
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: willing to take a little bit more of a shot
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: of saying they're purely going to develop this year and
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: maybe wins, be damned to see. And because one of
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: the benefits of that is you're giving all these young
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: players real minutes and opportunities to develop and cultivate their skills.
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: But then also the downside, such as it is, is
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: you lose, but you also then enhance your chances of
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: winning the draft lottery and being able to access them
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: that talent at the top of the draft. I think
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: that's a worthwhile conversation down the road. How much has
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: that factored into our decisions in the past. How does
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: that play in each of our sports individually?
• 59:24
  Speaker 3: No, absolutely, man, I'd have a hard time with that.
• 59:28
  Speaker 3: It's just two It's just like baseball and basketball and
• 59:30
  Speaker 3: football is just completely differently with football since only I
• 59:33
  Speaker 3: have seventeen games, but I can't imagine the philosophy of
• 59:38
  Speaker 3: playing young players and maybe giving up some wins and
• 59:41
  Speaker 3: hopefully we get a top five NFL draft pick. It's
• 59:43
  Speaker 3: just totally foreign to the NFL with how that works.
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: So some of the better franchises in baseball have certainly
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: been built on the backbone of that. Know, it's tougher
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: to do now with the draft lottery, but they were
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: doing that for quite a few cycles and we're very
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: successful doing it well.
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: NBA is well, I mean, you look at Lebron, James
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: Dwight Howard, Anthony Davis. We'll see what Victor woman Yama
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: develops into. But Tom, now let me ask you a
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: question though, if that were an option hypothetically in the NFL,
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: And keep in mind in the NFL has more players
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: than any sport. With the size of the roster and
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: injuries and all that, it's more obviously historically based on
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: you know, depth, rather than the maybe high end talent.
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: We've seen teams with the high end talent not have
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: a great rosters, not win. But was there ever a
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: guy in your scouting career where you looked at him?
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm going back to even you know, I'm
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: not trying to put names in your mouth, but Peyton
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: Manning or somebody where you say, boy, objectively, if we
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: could lose and get that guy, and then sure enough,
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: whichever team got that guy as the number was the
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: number one pick, and then the team ascended. Like I know,
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: that doesn't happen a lot in the NFL, and most
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: teams don't do that, but do any stand out is
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: a little bit different. He said, geez, I thought this
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: guy was going to be great. He was a number
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: one pick, and turns out he was great and that
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: team built around him and had a long run for five, ten,
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: fifteen years on the back of that number one pick.
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just so hard to do to predict, you know,
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 3: not that you're losing games on purpose, but to predict.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 3: Can we do we have a chance to even get
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 3: the first round pick and then well that in a
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 3: lot of times that player he may be underclass and
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 3: will he even declare for the draft. I mean, there's
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 3: just there's there's so many different variables that go into
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 3: that situation where in the NFL, which why you really
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 3: don't see teams tank in the NFL for a draft pick.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 3: Number one being you're never one player away, even though
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 3: obviously the quarterbacks is completely different. But you just don't
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 3: see teams tank now in baseball and basketball. I can
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 3: see the reasons behind it and the process to go
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 3: through to get there, and that's probably your best way
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 3: to for future performance is to go that route rather
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 3: than be middle of the road every year and and
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 3: and not being able to get in that lottery to
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 3: potentially get a player. It just seems like in basketball,
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 3: like you know, you got five starters, you got twelve
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 3: on the team. You know, getting a lottery pick is
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 3: a big deal. And football is a little bit different
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 3: unless it's a quarterback obviously, but there's just so many facts.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 3: And then then the other thing is if you're the
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 3: gam and the head coach and you want to try
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 3: and enhance your possibilities to get a high draft pick,
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 3: you may not be there to make that pick because
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 3: you know, you lose too many games and somebody else
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 3: will be making that pick. So never really been. You know,
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 3: when I was with the with the Colts my second
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 3: to last year there, when we were three and thirteen,
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 3: and that was the Andrew Luck year that he was
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 3: going to be in the draft. Actually was Andrew Luck
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 3: and Robert Griffin and believe in I mean they were
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 3: they were one and two, two and one for most
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 3: of the year in that draft, But I was Andrew
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 3: Luck was probably one of the best quarterbacks I've ever
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 3: seen in college. That was probably one of the few
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 3: instances that I felt like as we got towards the
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 3: end of the year that you know, in order to
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 3: get him, we're going to have to have the worst
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 3: record in the league. So losing hurt be last you
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 3: knew you had something on the back end that you
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 3: have a chance to get Andrew Luck.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 3: Unfortunately, in order to get Andrew Luck, a lot of
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 3: people lost their jobs. I mean almost everybody in the
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 3: front office I work with at the Colts lost their job.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 3: I got Lucky to get through with the new regime
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 3: and I was there for one more year after, but
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 3: I just always had an issue as a GM. If
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 3: the team looks like that you're really rebuilding and you're
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 3: playing younger players and purposely not trying to win every game.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 3: I wouldn't be able to show myself to show my
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 3: base in the locker room for the players that were
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 3: in there and for the fan base that we're trying
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 3: to win no matter what, even though God knows, like, yeah,
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 3: higher draft backs are going to help you, it's just
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 3: that there's just no guarantees.
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: I think those Colts fans are totally at peace with
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: all you guys losing your jobs in the name of
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: getting in for luck.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 3: You know, there's no doubt.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: It does speak to this balancing act we all have,
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: which is we are trying to act in the betterment
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: of the franchise, but it's also you try to also
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: survive year to year on the job. And if the
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: scale tip's too far to just trying to survive, I
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 2: think that's when we should be removed from these roles,
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: like we should always be putting the franchise of success
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: over our popularity. It's tough to do in the real
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: time in the moment because we're trying to provide for
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: a family as well. So tom before we let you go,
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: let's move away from the notion of tanking. Let's move
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: back towards the playoff push. Are there any teams in
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: the NFL right now that you see who have losing
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: records that you still think have a legitimate path forward
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: to getting into the playoffs? So, you know, looking at
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: at teams like the Giants and the Texans and the
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: Cowboys who are making a little bit of a push
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: after slow starts, anybody jump out to you as having
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: a legitimate chance at the playoffs? Who's currently sitting with
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 2: a losing record?
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 3: I still think Baltimore. You know, we talk about organizational
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 3: stability with John Harbaugh and then with Isie Newsman and
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 3: Eric Tacassa. Those three have worked them for so long.
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 3: They've had these situations before. They've weathered storms. I know
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 3: how to readjust their troops. Lamar Jackson will be back,
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 3: if not this week, the following week. They have a
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 3: lot of injuries right now, but they're going to be
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 3: getting some players back. And their roster was to me
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 3: the best in the league going into the season. It
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 3: just didn't turn bad overnight. They just had a lot
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 3: of injuries of recent the last couple of weeks. But
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 3: to me, in their division, I just don't think Pittsburgh's
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 3: gon to run away with it. And even though the
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 3: Ravens are one in five, I still think they can
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 3: make a pretty good run here coming up. And then
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 3: you know, watching Dallas, their offense is really impressive. Dak
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 3: Prescott when he's healthy, he is one of the best
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 3: quarterbacks in the NFL, and he's playing at high level
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 3: right now with all the injuries on the offensive line,
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 3: with no CD Lamb, and they're still put putting up points.
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 3: They just got to figure out a way on defense
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 3: just to get a couple stops that that's all that
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 3: they need. But I think they still have a chance
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 3: to compete as a wildcard. And that's why in this league,
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 3: like franchise quarterbacks are so important. You pay them so
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 3: much money, and you pay them such a big part
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 3: of the salary cap because you expect them to raise
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 3: the play of everybody around them. And for instances like this,
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 3: and the same thing you see with Baker Mayfield and Tampa,
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 3: like these are rosters with a lot of injuries right now,
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 3: and the quarterback is just pulling everybody forward, not only
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 3: by talent, but by leadership. So that's what Dak Prescott
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 3: is doing right now in Dallas. I still think they
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 3: can get into this, maybe get a wild cart. I
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 3: think Baltimore is certainly still in it, even though you
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 3: look at one to five we think there's no way.
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 3: But they're going to get some guys back. They're extremely
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 3: talented and they just have great stability in the front
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 3: office that I think they can weather this and get
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 3: back in the race.
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, certain organizations let go of the rope and shut
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: it down when things don't go well.
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: Others routes and they get hard.
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: It seemed like one of those that has a chance
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: to rally.
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 2: Well.
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: No, we'll see what happens on the field, but the Ravens,
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: certainly what they built, as you mentioned, over decades, wouldn't
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: I don't think any of the three of us would
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: be shocked if they dig themselves out of that hole.
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 2: That's it for this.
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: Week, folks, Thanks as always for joining us for Thad Levine,
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: for Tom to LESCo. I am Ryan McDonald. Join us
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 1: right here next week and every week on Rosters to Rings.