Latest / Paws Between Us - Pet Stories, Welfare and Building A Bond / A Dog Behaviourist’s Guide to common problems

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A Dog Behaviourist’s Guide to common problems · Paws Between Us - Pet Stories, Welfare and Building A Bond

• 0:00
  Welcome to the PauseBetweeners podcast, co-hosted by best friends Natalie and Sasha.
• 0:06
  We're lifelong animal lovers and proud pet parents. Between us, we share our lives with
• 0:13
  cats Murray and Weaver and Betty the pug.
• 0:17
  So welcome to a new episode. This was an exciting one. We've got a great guest coming up, Rachel
• 0:21
  from Nose to Trail. So listen up. But before we introduce her, say hello to Sash. Hey,
• 0:28
  hi, how's everyone doing? Or how are you Nat?
• 0:32
  Yeah, not too bad. I'm all right. Well, I hurt my, I told you earlier, I hurt my ankle
• 0:36
  because I fell over on Saturday. So I've got bruised and swollen ankle.
• 0:40
  Bless you. I hope you're not in too much pain.
• 0:42
  Yeah, so it's fine. Yeah, that's fine. Although we did have a little vet visit just to check on
• 0:48
  Weaver's back and the medication, which I mentioned last week, but nothing really,
• 0:52
  no news there. It's, she's doing well. They said that actually she seems fit and healthy otherwise.
• 0:58
  She is still twinging on her back when they press it. So there's something still there that she needs
• 1:03
  the gabapentin for. So that's the path going forward for the short term. Well, long term,
• 1:09
  we don't know. We'll keep an eye on it and see, keep going back for some checkups and stuff. But
• 1:12
  yeah, but she's well, she's good. So that's all right. How's things with you?
• 1:16
  Yeah, not bad. We've had a long weekend for Easter. So that always helps. I took a couple
• 1:25
  of days off either side of the long weekend to make it even longer. So yeah, that was good. I
• 1:33
  needed that. I needed some time out. Yeah, I mean, Betty is well, she is currently sleeping alongside
• 1:41
  me. So no surprises there. Betty's always asleep, less so now she's older. But we went out to the
• 1:46
  park today and got some sunshine. So she enjoyed that. We were very, very slowly. And in a way,
• 1:53
  it's good because it's slowing me down on walks as well. And because it's been so lovely,
• 1:57
  just an opportunity to take in the sights and sounds of North London and not be in too much
• 2:03
  of a hurry. So stop and chat to a few neighbours, which is nice. See a few other dogs living in our
• 2:09
  community. So stopping and having a little stroke with them, giving them a treat or two. And yeah,
• 2:15
  just getting to the park and taking it all in, feeling like sort of sunny days are really with
• 2:22
  us now, which is good. I bumped into a dog walker in the park and he said, oh, gosh, I've been
• 2:29
  waiting six months for this sunshine. Of course, he's out all day, every day. He said, you know,
• 2:34
  I've been in the wind and the rain the past few months and it's been awful. But then we both
• 2:40
  agreed that before too long, we'd be complaining that it's too hot. So we all love complaining
• 2:46
  about the weather. No, but we're like making the most of this beautiful sunshine. So yeah,
• 2:52
  all good. Still progressing with Betty's physio, trying to do that. Although,
• 2:57
  yeah, I may be not doing it at home as often as I should be. We're supposed to be doing it three
• 3:02
  days a week at home, but life's just been so busy. So I'm actually going to do a little bit
• 3:07
  of physio after this with her. Yeah. Yeah, it's tough, isn't it, when you've got a whole other
• 3:13
  thing going on and lots of stuff in your life, it's hard to kind of even do that for yourself,
• 3:17
  isn't it? Like do your own physio or do your own health and well-being. Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying not
• 3:22
  to beat myself up because I'm saying, you know, I'm doing the best I can. Yeah. If it's not three
• 3:28
  times a week, so be it. But at least I'm trying. Yeah. But yeah, really looking forward to speaking
• 3:34
  to Rachel shortly just because I know she's going to touch on separation anxiety and that's something
• 3:39
  that Betty's experienced or does experience and that I've talked about on the other podcast. So
• 3:44
  it'll be good to get her advice on that to see how she tackles it. But just to hear from her
• 3:50
  generally in her role, I think it's really fascinating what she does. Yeah, it'll be
• 3:55
  interesting because it'll be something for me, new for me to learn because not having a dog.
• 3:59
  And I've always thought animal behaviourists were for dogs more so than cats. And, you know,
• 4:05
  so I've not really kind of looked into thinking more about my cat in that way. So I'd be interested
• 4:11
  to hear more about like how they work and what they focus on. So, yeah, Rachel's it's been
• 4:16
  brilliant that Rachel's agreed to come on. Indeed. Indeed. So, yeah, I mean, shall we
• 4:23
  shall we get cracking speaking to Rachel? Yeah, because I know that she's got lots to share and
• 4:28
  be good to dedicate this podcast really to hearing from Rachel and getting a glimpse into her role
• 4:35
  and also the experience that she has. So, yeah, should we should we do it? Let's do it. Let's do it.
• 4:49
  Hello, everybody. We're here. Another edition of Pause Between Us and we've got a very special
• 4:54
  guest today. It's very exciting. This is Rachel Rogers. She's a clinical animal behaviourist based
• 4:59
  in, well, Cheshire, but you can tell exactly if that's right, Rachel. She helps people with
• 5:03
  difficult behaviours from doggies, such as separation and anxiety and reactivity, won lots
• 5:09
  of awards in animal behaviouring and dog training, which is excellent. Well done, Rachel. And we
• 5:14
  connected through TikTok social media and I just loved your approach, thought you were really
• 5:19
  interesting. You had lots of great ideas. The trails thing was something new to me because
• 5:23
  I'm not a dog owner. So that was what really drew me in. I was like, what is this about? I've not
• 5:27
  heard this before as an approach to help with behaviour, but it's amazing. So, yeah, we invited
• 5:32
  you in and thanks for coming along. It's so exciting to have you. So welcome, Rachel.
• 5:36
  Thank you. And it's really nice to reach out to people on TikTok as well because it's not
• 5:40
  always that social media is the nicest place to be. So it's nice to get some friendly messages
• 5:45
  rather than the more usual grumpy ones. Everyone has an opinion, don't they?
• 5:51
  Yeah. No, I mean, I found it like I've been on a little while just testing the waters and I
• 5:55
  found it such a lovely community of people if you join together over a common interest. But
• 6:00
  yeah, there are some darker sides to social media, but we've found a good one.
• 6:07
  We have. We're all about positivity here or positivity, aren't we? And you're in a
• 6:13
  kind, welcoming, supportive space here. So yeah, we can leave the negativity at the door on TikTok.
• 6:22
  So yeah, Rachel, thank you so much. So I've done a little intro, but it'd be great to hear
• 6:26
  about you from you. So tell us a little bit about yourself and your little fur family.
• 6:30
  Yeah. So I am the crazy dog lady now. I have three.
• 6:34
  So I do meet that stereotype. So I have two dogs who are kind of working slash retired and then one
• 6:41
  who is very much just a pet dog. So the oldest one is Maisie. She's a Jack Russell cross pug.
• 6:47
  And she is 15. She's not been very well recently. She is actually in here with me. So she may make
• 6:53
  an appearance at some point, but she's my little old girl. She's pretty much blind, got no teeth.
• 6:59
  All of the issues you have with older dogs. And we just thought every day that we have her as a
• 7:03
  blessing really now. But she's a little cutie. But we joke that she's the freeloader because Maisie
• 7:09
  has never done any work and never been paid for any work, unlike the other two. Then we have Rico
• 7:15
  and Rico is my 11 year old rescue. We think he's a Cacone. They're a breed not everybody has come
• 7:21
  across because they are a Greek breed. They don't exist in the kennel club in the UK. But he's a
• 7:28
  little black and tan thing with fluffy ears. And he came from Portugal where he was found under a
• 7:33
  caravan. So he had a couple of days he was going to be put to sleep. So I originally paid to rescue
• 7:40
  him and get him in the donkey sanctuary to stop him being put to sleep. And then they couldn't
• 7:44
  find him a home. So he came to me to be rehabbed and never left. I had a foster failed and he has
• 7:52
  been with me 10 and a bit years now. And he was the reason I got into trailing. And he was the
• 7:57
  reason I set up Nose to Tilt. So he was really scared of men when I got him. And so we started
• 8:02
  doing what they call man trailing. So like hide and seek, find a man, get loads of rewards. And
• 8:09
  he was just really, really good at it. And then we moved on to pet trailing and lost dog search,
• 8:14
  which he has actually won all sorts of awards in including one last year from the BBC for his work
• 8:20
  reuniting lost dogs with their owners. So he's a very, very special boy. But we'll try not to only
• 8:26
  talk about him. That's amazing. Congratulations. I know I like very proud dog mum when it comes
• 8:34
  to Rico because he is just, he's so special. And when you think about where he came from to what
• 8:39
  he went on to do, it's just amazing. Absolutely amazing. He's currently in the conservatory
• 8:44
  sunbathing. Otherwise, I'm sure he'd join us. Better things to do. Loves his Portugal roots
• 8:50
  and going back to the sunshine. He hates the cold. He loves to be out in the warm.
• 8:54
  And then I've got Pebbles and she is a one year old Border Terrier. And she is currently having
• 9:01
  her second season and is feeling very sorry for herself, spending most of her time in a dog bed.
• 9:06
  We keep trying to get her to come and be with us. She doesn't want to be.
• 9:10
  Pulling the saddest faces and breaking everybody's hearts. The hormones have hit
• 9:14
  her really hard this time around. She has already, at just over a year old at the weekend,
• 9:20
  she passed her proficient pet trail assessment. So she is one level away from being a qualified
• 9:26
  lost dog search dog already. Not that I'm a pushing mum at all. Border Terrier, not the
• 9:33
  breed people expect, I don't think, to be going out doing scent work. But her other job, because
• 9:38
  I like to keep her busy, is she is training to be my gluten detection dog. So I can't eat gluten
• 9:44
  for health reasons. And so it's very difficult to get gluten free food. I am very prone to being
• 9:51
  very sick from even the slightest bit of cross-contamination. So she is being trained
• 9:57
  and working with the gluten detection trainer, who's a dog trainer over in America, who's amazing.
• 10:03
  Gluten free dog training. And we do training and Pebbles is learning to identify different forms
• 10:09
  of gluten in food and indicate to say if it does have gluten or it doesn't have gluten.
• 10:14
  And she is doing really quite well, which I think she's surprised both me and the trainer with how
• 10:20
  quickly she's progressing. But we normally train on a Thursday and she's being allowed the week
• 10:25
  off because it is not fair to expect her to work at present when she seems to think the world is
• 10:30
  ending. So we're letting her rest, bless her. But yeah, they're my three. So they're all very
• 10:36
  different. They're all very small. Some people seem to think you can't be a dog trainer if you
• 10:39
  don't have a German Shepherd or a Mally. But I have all the small dogs and I'm fighting that.
• 10:45
  Doing for the small dogs. That's astonishing. I mean, this is what I love. I mean, as people know
• 10:50
  on the, who've been listening, hopefully, that I'm more of a cat person. I've had dogs through my
• 10:55
  grandma and my nana, don't say grandma, my nana and my grandad. But yeah, not really kind of lived
• 11:00
  or been brought up with dogs. But I love the fact that they can do and support us with so much in
• 11:04
  our lives, you know, doing rescues. I mean, I've been around guide dogs as part of one of my jobs
• 11:09
  before, hearing dogs, just all the lovely things and all this sort of medical scientific stuff
• 11:14
  that can help us with. It's just amazing. It's just gorgeous to know that we can work together
• 11:20
  in such a positive way. Yeah. And it's fascinating. She's got a little don't feed me jacket
• 11:26
  because as part of her kind of working, she can't eat gluten either. So she's got like a little
• 11:32
  jacket because people always try and feed them treats, don't they, when they're out and about.
• 11:35
  And unless it's gluten free, she can't have it. So she's got like a little don't pet me,
• 11:39
  don't distract me, like little jacket that she wears. And she looks so cute. But I think everyone
• 11:44
  expects Labrador, big dog to be like a proper assistance dog. And so when she's, she's dinky,
• 11:50
  she is dinky peps. People kind of go, what? She comes in, but I mean, she fits nice under tables
• 11:56
  and they eat their food, they eat their ham strips. So they're, they're really, they're quite a good
• 12:00
  choice, I think, albeit I'm biased, for being an assistance dog because she is small. She,
• 12:05
  she keeps out the way and she isn't messy. Yeah. And I suppose if you're taking them to like public
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  spaces, with food, it's going to be restaurants, isn't it, particularly. So if she's small and can
• 12:15
  kind of not be a distraction to the public, then that's going to be a bonus, isn't it, really?
• 12:20
  Yeah. And I don't want like a drooling Newfoundland or something, do I? Like if I'm
• 12:24
  putting up like a peanut bread to go, can you sniff this and check for gluten? No.
• 12:29
  Yummy, yummy. You don't want sliver on top, thank you.
• 12:34
  So you mentioned actually that they, well, it was Rico, wasn't it, the reason that you got into this.
• 12:40
  I mean, tell us a little bit more what, what clinical animal behaviourist means.
• 12:43
  Yeah. So we're at a really interesting time to be having this conversation, actually. So a clinical
• 12:49
  animal behaviourist at the minute is not what we class as a protected title. So doctor, dentist,
• 12:55
  lawyer, if someone pretends they are a doctor, that is an actual crime. You can't just claim
• 13:01
  you're a doctor. However, anybody can claim they are a behaviourist. And that is where I think as
• 13:07
  a pet owner, there are a lot of problems because people go to Facebook, we go to Google, we put
• 13:13
  dog behaviourist, dog trainer near me, and you get the good, but you get the bad and the outright
• 13:19
  ugly as well, because there is no kind of regulation within the industry at the minute.
• 13:25
  So I actually was sent last week, the government are doing a petition on trying, like it's a
• 13:31
  consultation period, I guess, on whether we should become part of the actual kind of vet group
• 13:37
  or as paraprofessionals where it does become a protected title. And it's a really interesting
• 13:43
  time. I would love to see regulation in our industry, because you've got quote unquote
• 13:49
  behaviourists at the minute, who they are very prevalent on social media with no qualification,
• 13:56
  no kind of formal training in working with animals, whereas a registered clinical animal behaviourist
• 14:02
  like myself, who sits under what's called the ABTC, because the animal world loves an acronym,
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  the Animal Behaviour Training Council, which is where people should go if they want help with
• 14:13
  their cat, with their dog, whatever, those professionals on there are properly rigorously
• 14:18
  assessed and have to have a minimum level of knowledge as well as experience to be on there.
• 14:24
  So you know you're getting a safe, ethical professional if you go there. And they do dog
• 14:29
  trainers as well as clinical animal behaviourists. But from the clinical animal behaviour viewpoint,
• 14:33
  we work only on vet referral, because we know that up to 82% of behaviour problems are caused by,
• 14:42
  or at least partly caused by, health issues. So some of those are often kind of undiagnosed at
• 14:47
  the point the dog comes to me, but the vet has to agree to working with me, and I have to get the
• 14:53
  full medical history of the dog before I can start working with them. And that's really, really
• 14:57
  important. So if we look at a case that I've got at the minute, he's a lovely dog, golden retriever
• 15:02
  that I'm working with, but he had bitten a person. What we found when he had his full health check
• 15:07
  before they came to work with me, is he had a broken tooth. It was actually cracked, all the
• 15:12
  nerve endings were out, he needed surgery to remove that tooth. He was in excruciating pain,
• 15:16
  someone went to stroke him, and we all stroke dogs where they actually don't want to be stroked,
• 15:21
  we stroke them all over the head. And so he bit the hand, because he was thinking, do not touch me,
• 15:25
  that's going to really hurt me. But they had no idea, because we don't open our dog's mouths and
• 15:30
  poke around and have a look, do we? So we had no idea. So once that was treated, you know,
• 15:35
  he was feeling much better, the chances of him biting again significantly decreased.
• 15:40
  But we've continued to work together for many months to make sure that we build up that
• 15:45
  relationship and that trust with him again, so that he feels safe around people and he doesn't
• 15:49
  want to grumble and tell them to leave him alone. So behaviour slightly different to training,
• 15:54
  training typically teaching the dog new things, behaviour dealing with problem issues and finding
• 15:59
  the cause to the problem. That's my oversimplified way of dealing with it.
• 16:04
  Of course, no, I mean, that is so useful and really insightful to kind of hopefully lots of people who are
• 16:09
  listening, because having that regulated role, I think will help a lot of people. And you're right,
• 16:14
  because I, as an inexperienced person in this kind of world, would have Googled animal behaviourist
• 16:20
  local to me and then maybe just picked anybody. I probably would have gone a little bit into sort of
• 16:24
  seeing what they'd written about their qualifications, but I wouldn't have known
• 16:27
  whether somebody was regulated or not. And I probably agree with you that I think that's a
• 16:31
  really good step forward to make sure that people are getting the right service. And the fact that
• 16:35
  I didn't know that as well, that it was linked to vet referrals, because like you say,
• 16:39
  if there is an underlying health condition that that needs to be dealt with first and that it
• 16:43
  gets picked up is brilliant as well. And interestingly, Sash, we had a friend who had
• 16:48
  an incident with a dog and she got bitten. And we actually, we don't know whether that was something
• 16:53
  that was a behavioural kind of reaction to something or whether, like you say, whether
• 16:57
  there was actually an underlying illness problem with the dog. That's really insightful for me. It's
• 17:02
  really new information, which I'm sort of learning already, which is just great, Rachel. Thank you.
• 17:08
  I think for me, it's a big red flag when I see these kind of TikTok videos and things where
• 17:13
  people are saying, I will quote unquote fix your dog. And when you have a look into that process,
• 17:18
  at no point does it mention that they will require a vet referral and they will look at the dog's
• 17:23
  medical history. I work hand in hand with the vet. So any report I write on the dog goes to the vet.
• 17:29
  If I have any concerns, they go to the vet. I saw even a puppy yesterday. So normal puppy training,
• 17:34
  because I do training as well, but just went to see a puppy and noticed that his like outer toe
• 17:39
  doesn't ever touch the floor. It like hovers up. So the paw pad doesn't touch the floor,
• 17:44
  the nails up in the air. And I thought, oh, that's interesting. Now, there's no obvious sign that
• 17:49
  it's causing the pain at the minute. But my thoughts are that's going to impact the dog's
• 17:54
  balance. It's going to impact the way they put their foot down. So over time, are they going to
• 17:58
  have injuries from overcompensating in how they move? So I just said, look, you're there for
• 18:04
  further vaccinations in a couple of weeks. Just ask. Just mention it. Show them the pictures.
• 18:08
  Ask them. And then at least we know with that. But yeah, the ones who don't ever mention it,
• 18:13
  that's a big red flag for me, particularly if they use the kind of aversive methods like
• 18:19
  prong collars and e collars. Because if a dog is barking, lunging, snarling, because actually
• 18:24
  they've got arthritis and they're in pain every single day. To me, it's completely unethical
• 18:30
  to put an aversive tool on that dog to stop it when all it's trying to do is communicate and
• 18:36
  protect itself. So to me, we do need that regulation for the dogs, for all the animals,
• 18:41
  really, for their safety. And also as a pet owner, as a guardian, you're looking for help.
• 18:48
  You're trying to do right by your dog. But if you chose someone who made it worse, you'd feel
• 18:53
  terrible, wouldn't you? You'd feel awful. Yeah. I was just thinking that because as pet owners,
• 18:58
  we want to do the right thing. But actually, you could cause so much damage without realising
• 19:04
  because you're choosing the wrong person with the lack of experience, people that don't really know
• 19:12
  what they're doing. And then you just make matters so much worse. And I don't know if you see pets
• 19:18
  where that's happened. So a dog that's come to you that's been to a different trainer
• 19:22
  and actually that other trainer has caused so many more problems and you've got to then try and work
• 19:28
  with that and unravel that. Do you see that quite a bit where people come to you and quite exasperated
• 19:33
  feeling that they're really desperate to get some help? Yeah. And it's really, people have
• 19:39
  limited funds, don't they? And I think we're at a time now where more than ever, people are feeling the pinch.
• 19:45
  And so I really feel for people and people reach out to me on social media all the time.
• 19:49
  I've spent thousands of pounds with X trainer. You're my last hope. Can you help for free? And I
• 19:56
  really struggle with that because I want to help the dogs, but equally is my paid job. But it's
• 20:02
  really hard because I want to help the dog. So we made the decision a few years ago, actually,
• 20:06
  myself and the girls who work for me as a team that rather than doing pro bono work for general
• 20:13
  public, our free work we do for our local kennels. So we have a Romanian rescue kennels that is
• 20:21
  a stone's throw from where we are and we go there. So we do free sessions for the staff.
• 20:27
  They're part of our membership. We support them. And then any work that we do with them,
• 20:32
  any additional work, we offer exceptionally discounted for them. We basically cover the
• 20:37
  staff's travel costs. And that's how we do it because it's so hard. And it's also unfair on
• 20:42
  our paid clients if we then do free behavior consults for someone because they've reached out
• 20:47
  in desperation on social media. But we need to prevent us getting to that stage in the first
• 20:52
  place and people able to be signposted to appropriate support. In my membership, we do
• 20:57
  have that because a lot of people are local. So I am kind of Cheshire, Shropshire area, and they
• 21:02
  kind of chat amongst themselves. And I think it is actually quite nice for them to have the peer
• 21:07
  support. But actually, if you've got a dog with a health issue, you need a proper behaviorist who
• 21:12
  is going to work alongside your vet because a sausage dog with a spinal issue being put on a
• 21:18
  prom collar and paraded around the local park is not the right approach for a dog. And then they
• 21:23
  end up not leaving the house, being shut down and really struggling. So it's horrible. And I do get
• 21:30
  frustrated and you have to keep it in and not have keyboard wars with other local trainers because
• 21:35
  that then doesn't look professional. But yeah, it's hard. It's hard at times.
• 21:40
  Because for me, there's so much emotion attached with animals. It's so extremely upset and also
• 21:47
  extremely angry. And I really struggle to manage that sometimes. And I have to kind of put my
• 21:52
  fingers in the ears. I'm so kind of affected by the good and the bad of animals. It's so extreme.
• 21:59
  And if I was in your profession, it would be really difficult for me to ignore so much. But you've got
• 22:05
  to for your own sake, haven't you? Your own sanity. Yeah, I think compassion fatigue is huge
• 22:10
  in our industry. My way of dealing with it is I wild swim. I do long open water swims because
• 22:17
  if I know I've got a five or a 10k swim to do, I can't be thinking about the dogs. Whereas at home,
• 22:23
  I can't sit and watch TV. My other half thinks I'm crackers, but I can't. There's always something
• 22:29
  more I can be doing, another bit of work I can be doing. And I think if you're not self-employed
• 22:34
  and you've got a normal nine to five job where nothing catastrophic is going to happen overnight,
• 22:39
  you can switch off from it. But there are cases, I have a case at the minute where I'm genuinely
• 22:45
  really worried about the welfare of the dog. And we were out for dinner, like Easter holidays,
• 22:50
  got my stepson, my partner, you know, we'll go out for a nice pub meal. And I could not switch
• 22:55
  off from it. All I can think about is like that dog is in pain, that dog needs to see the vet,
• 23:00
  that dog, we need to get this sorted. And there's nothing I can do at eight o'clock on a Tuesday
• 23:04
  night. There is nothing, but it's all I can think about. And so I do, like I lose sleep over people's
• 23:11
  dogs. Some dogs I've never even met. I mean, Sash, you've got this same thing, haven't you? You just,
• 23:18
  you're always on the go and always thinking about your pets and what you can do more as well,
• 23:22
  aren't you? I am. Yeah. So what you're describing sounds very similar to me. I struggle to sit still
• 23:29
  and I do a lot of work with animal charities. So do some volunteering with dogs on the streets
• 23:36
  and the Cinnamon Trust, so some volunteer dog walking. And yeah, I also want to help every
• 23:43
  single dog I meet, but I know that that's not possible. If I had a bigger place or I lived in
• 23:48
  the countryside and had a big cottage or a farm, I'm sure I would be adopting many more dogs. But
• 23:54
  in the city, it's quite tricky, but yeah, it is hard, isn't it? And I struggle to switch off
• 24:00
  sometimes, but I think it's also about some of the small steps that you can take. And I
• 24:05
  think what you talked about around raising awareness of how to find a well-trained,
• 24:12
  well-informed clinical animal behaviourist or a trainer that has the right qualifications is
• 24:18
  a good step because not everyone knows what to look for. So I think just educating people,
• 24:23
  raising awareness is also helping in other ways, even though you can't help that pet directly,
• 24:29
  maybe you could through your TikTok account or whatever you're doing, help others learn a bit
• 24:33
  more about what to look for, who to find, the skills and the qualifications. And I suppose
• 24:38
  that's one small way of contributing, if that makes sense. But yeah, I feel you, definitely.
• 24:46
  I'm someone who puts the TV on to try and switch off and I usually fall asleep, but then I'm always
• 24:50
  checking my phone thinking, I wonder how so-and-so is, or what are they up to, or are they okay?
• 24:55
  Since we started this, I can't stop. I'm just on it, on it, on it, wanting to try and find
• 24:59
  great guests and get loads more information out there to more people.
• 25:02
  My whole life has ramped up since doing this. It's great. It's great. I love it.
• 25:16
  Rachel, you talked about, obviously, some of the little things you do. It'd be great to
• 25:19
  learn a little bit more about some of the behaviours you come across. Like,
• 25:23
  what are some of the common things you're working on most days?
• 25:27
  Yeah, so they're pretty much a 50-50 split at the minute. Because I spend a lot of time focused on
• 25:35
  what people tend to call separation anxiety, I see a lot of separation-related cases. But the
• 25:40
  other half in our local area tend to be what people deem as reactivity, so barking, lunging,
• 25:45
  snarling at the end of the lead, whether that's towards dogs or whether it's towards people.
• 25:51
  They tend to be the most common things that people come to me with. We do get others. I
• 25:56
  do see dogs for repetitive behaviours, so tail-chasing and light-chasing and stuff like
• 26:01
  that. But they tend to, fortunately, be kind of few and far in between getting cases like that.
• 26:08
  And we do get quite a lot of resource-guarding issues, so dogs protecting things in the house.
• 26:13
  But again, that quite often is tied to a dog who's then also unhappy outside of the house.
• 26:19
  So then they're reactive as well, so they tend to go with those. So I spend a lot of time doing
• 26:24
  the trailing, hence it's nose to trail. Because it's scent work that really helps the behavioural
• 26:29
  recovery of dogs, regardless of what their behaviour issue is. But then when I am on a
• 26:35
  computer, not normally doing this, I am normally doing separation cases because I tend to do those
• 26:40
  virtually. So I have clients all across the UK and abroad when we look at separation cases.
• 26:45
  It's so interesting. So what does that usually tell you about the dogs then?
• 26:50
  Is it like a learned behaviour? I mean, I suppose it could be many things you talked about. It could
• 26:54
  be health issues. So is it a case of trying to just sort of work out what's going on deep down
• 26:59
  before putting in place any kind of mechanism or sort of retraining?
• 27:04
  Yeah, absolutely that. And I think that's what sometimes surprises people,
• 27:09
  because what you see on the TV programmes with dog trainers is someone turns up and they are
• 27:14
  proactively doing training with treats or whatever instantly. Where from a behaviourist viewpoint,
• 27:22
  most of my initial consults are done virtually. And that is irrelevant as to the client's location,
• 27:29
  you know, they could literally be around the corner from me, I will still do it online.
• 27:32
  So the first session tends to be an hour and a half, two hours of really deep diving into the
• 27:38
  dog's history, both medical and behavioural, to find out exactly like you said, what has caused
• 27:44
  this? Why is the dog doing it? And we need to know that to make sure that the actual training that we
• 27:49
  put in place is appropriate. So if we look at the reactive dogs, so the barking, lunging, snarling
• 27:55
  ones, they may be dogs that are in pain. So they're doing distance increasing behaviours to
• 28:00
  say leave me alone, because your interaction with me could hurt. But it could be that that is learnt
• 28:05
  because they've had a bad experience. It could be that they never had an experience. So, you know,
• 28:11
  as a puppy, they just weren't appropriate or wrongly socialised. And so now they don't behave
• 28:17
  in the right way out and about. But it can also be the opposite, they've been over socialised,
• 28:23
  sent to doggy daycare and their expectation in life is I run around awfully playing with other
• 28:28
  dogs. So it can look very similar to the lay person, you know, and I mean that with the greatest
• 28:34
  respect. I don't mean that in like a how can you not tell the difference. To most people, it's a
• 28:39
  barking, lunging dog at the end of the lead. It looks nasty. But actually, if we look at the fact
• 28:44
  some of those are fear or anxiety driven, and some of those are frustration driven, how I then implement
• 28:50
  the training is going to be totally different. Because if a dog's frustration is I want to go
• 28:54
  and play with the other dogs, me telling it dog equals nice thing and have cheese isn't going to
• 28:59
  help because they already know dogs are nice things. That's why they want to get it and they
• 29:02
  want to go and play. So what training we then do is very different. And it's the same with the
• 29:07
  separation side as well. Everyone Googles separation anxiety, when they mean my dog
• 29:12
  can't be left home alone. But we have loads of different types of reasons dogs can't be left
• 29:17
  home alone. And a lot of those at the minute are frustration based, because COVID hit, we all
• 29:22
  worked from home, the dog's expectation is someone's always there. And so when someone's not,
• 29:27
  I'm annoyed by that. They're not actually fearful or anxious, they can be frustrated. So then it's
• 29:32
  a different way again, in terms of what training we do. So that initial session, while some people
• 29:37
  don't really understand or they call us an armchair behaviorist, because we're not proactively
• 29:43
  doing something with the dog. To me, it is really important, because it means that I do the right
• 29:47
  training from the beginning. I understand what's going on with the pet. I love all this, because
• 29:52
  I've got a psychology degree. I mean, it could have been years ago, but that human behavior
• 29:58
  and just understanding why people do something, why people feel the way they feel. And it's just
• 30:03
  so fascinating to me. And like you're saying, distance learning, counseling can happen at a
• 30:08
  distance. It's the same with humans, you can still gleam and learn and build a relationship with
• 30:13
  somebody from a distance. We're doing this now. And I feel like I know you really well. And we've
• 30:17
  been, so I can understand why you can get a lot from just talking to somebody from,
• 30:22
  you know, through a Zoom call or whatever and learn more about their animal. I think that's just so
• 30:26
  far. I love that approach. This is also new to me is, you know, coming kind of to this
• 30:32
  clinical animal behaviorist world, actually. And I'm just loving what you're telling me. It's
• 30:37
  sort of lighting up all these things inside that I just think it's just perfect. And you're
• 30:41
  approaching it in such a gorgeous way that's sort of really kind of, I don't know, I'm just
• 30:47
  finding it really interesting. It's just so approachable and so warm and you kind of,
• 30:51
  you can tell you really care. And I just think that's great. And you're obviously very knowledgeable.
• 30:56
  So I'm loving this. I mean, Sasha, you wanted to speak about Betty's separation because that
• 31:01
  was something that you were experiencing. Do you want to come in on that? Yeah. And just to say,
• 31:06
  though, I agree with everything you've just said. I've learned a lot just in this short conversation.
• 31:11
  And I think what's interesting is the point you made around with separation anxiety when dogs get
• 31:16
  used to you being around. Actually, they're not feeling sadness when you're no longer around.
• 31:21
  They're feeling frustration. That's new to me because I have this fear that if I leave Betty,
• 31:27
  she's going to be really unhappy because I know that she barks at the door and she howls.
• 31:32
  And the howling always sounds a little bit like, I don't know, just really sad. So with my case,
• 31:38
  I've had Betty for 10 years. We've spent a lot of time together anyway. But during the pandemic,
• 31:44
  we spent every day, every hour together. And things did change after that because we could
• 31:50
  leave her before. Now we can't leave her at all. And I also recognize that there's part of me that
• 31:56
  doesn't want to leave her because I feel this sense of guilt or this fear in myself that if
• 32:02
  I leave her, something bad's going to happen. So I've been trying to work on me as well as her.
• 32:07
  But she's nearly 12. Her physical health isn't too good, which I've talked about on another
• 32:12
  podcast. So there are other things at play as well. But it's got to a point now where we can't
• 32:17
  really go anywhere. We've adapted our lives so that if we do go somewhere, Betty comes with us.
• 32:22
  Even if we have family or friends around to sit with her, she doesn't like that either. She still
• 32:28
  goes to the door and barks and howls. And so I've developed this deep attachment with Betty. And I
• 32:33
  know that part of it is me and how I feel rather than how she's feeling. But yeah, that is just
• 32:38
  interesting to say you've got a pug crossed with a Jack Russell. So I don't know whether it's a
• 32:43
  pug thing that I'm describing and you've seen it with yours or, you know, pugs love to be with you.
• 32:49
  Yeah, it is really interesting because there are breeds that are predisposed, definitely,
• 32:55
  from a genetics viewpoint. It's fascinating. You know, if we look like I see primarily cockapoos,
• 33:01
  poodle crossers and sausage dogs for separation cases. But if we look at kind of actual scientific
• 33:09
  research that's been done on it, the one study that I always remember is it was golden retrievers
• 33:14
  were their most common breed for separation issues. And I thought that's so weird because
• 33:19
  in 12 years, I've never, touch wood, never had a golden retriever for a separation case. So I
• 33:24
  thought, well, that's really odd. But then when you look at what breeds they included, they only
• 33:27
  actually had about seven breeds in the study. Cockapoos were not a massive popular breed back
• 33:33
  then. Pugs were not included. Dachshunds were not included in the study. So what we see in practice
• 33:39
  versus what we have actual scientific literature on are not always the same, sadly. But it's
• 33:45
  interesting, Sasha, a few of the things you said, kind of age does play a role. You do then dogs who
• 33:50
  start to show perhaps early signs of cognitive decline, they can also have separation issues.
• 33:56
  So when I get an old client coming for a separation case, that's one of the variables that
• 34:01
  I want to rule out is are there any other issues going on? And you said there's health issues, so
• 34:06
  that may well play into it. But then also the learning history and the lifestyle of you were
• 34:12
  there. So we do have that potential aspect of my expectation is you should be around. And when I
• 34:17
  want you around, I need you. But we do one of the classes of kind of separation issues that we see,
• 34:24
  and yours might fall into this based on what you said, Sasha, is hyperattachment. So when a dog
• 34:29
  is really strongly bonded to one individual, and that is, I hate to break it to you, one of the
• 34:35
  hardest from a separation view. Because if you have a dog who's actually got what I would call
• 34:40
  fear of isolation, so just absolutely petrified if they are on their own, that is easier to work
• 34:46
  through. Because while we do the training, if you need to leave the dog, so long as you leave them
• 34:50
  with someone, they're fine. So like, if we look at my dogs, actually they don't, but you know,
• 34:56
  Maisie, the pug cross that you mentioned, Maisie loves anyone. She will sit on any stranger's knee.
• 35:02
  She will find you with anyone, be it a dog, be it a pet. You know, like she's not picky. She's like,
• 35:09
  oh, you're here to love me. Fantastic. So if I went out and my other half and his son are here,
• 35:14
  Maisie doesn't even notice. She doesn't bat an eyelid. She does not care. There's still people
• 35:18
  in the house. It's great. So very different, Sasha, to what you're saying about your girl who
• 35:23
  barks even if there are friends in the house. And that's where the difference in terms of training
• 35:28
  approach and the difficulty in getting a dog over that separation issue varies. Because you have
• 35:33
  less dog mum guilt if you can send your dog to daycare, have a dog sit, or have a family member
• 35:39
  around while you go off and have date night. If you go out and have date night and you know your
• 35:44
  dog is barking and is not happy the whole time you're out, you can't enjoy going out on date
• 35:49
  night because you feel guilty about what's going on at home. And then that's where there is, you
• 35:54
  know, no separation cases are the same. No behavior problems are ever the same. But it is harder if
• 35:59
  you know that your dog isn't happy regardless. So, yeah, I really feel for you. It's not easy.
• 36:03
  And I think that is in part why I like separation cases, because when we work through them and the
• 36:10
  dog gets happier at being left, it isn't just the dog's welfare that improves. There's a huge
• 36:14
  human benefit as well. And with some of my clients, it's almost like they've got their
• 36:18
  life back. You know, they can go and do things. They're able to go to the gym, go and go out to
• 36:23
  work and not feel guilty. And so it does for me, I love it. But not all behaviorists and not all
• 36:28
  trainers will touch separation issues because they are very different to the vast majority of
• 36:33
  dog training problems. Interesting. Yeah, thank you. I think you're right. It's part dog, part
• 36:38
  human. And it must be so rewarding when you see a case that is quite complex, but you're able to
• 36:43
  kind of make a difference to the pet and the owner's lives. It's also a little bit awkward
• 36:47
  when someone comes to me adamant that their dog does have true hyperattachment issues.
• 36:52
  And then I do a video of the dog and send it round the house. The dog doesn't give two hoots.
• 36:57
  And I have a really awkward conversation with the person that is the person with the attachment
• 37:01
  issue and the dog's fine. He doesn't love you that much. Your dog is fine, I promise you. No,
• 37:09
  he's not. He's constricted. I mean, no. Brilliant.
• 37:15
  Counseling skills as well. So, so helpful. It's so clear. So, yeah, I mean, I suppose to end it
• 37:22
  on, Rachel, I mean, there's such insightful, so clear, knowledgeable information. They're really
• 37:27
  helpful. Hopefully lots of people have been learning a little bit here. I totally have
• 37:31
  changed my whole view of all of this. And I think the one thing for me was just like
• 37:35
  thinking about the underlying health condition and maybe saying to people like,
• 37:39
  make sure your animal's health is tip top and you go and see a vet if you're ever concerned
• 37:44
  about anything. But, and I suppose you would echo that, but Rachel, is there any, you know,
• 37:48
  if anyone wanted any more advice, be it small, be it kind of through your services, where would
• 37:53
  you suggest people go? What should they do if they are having any problems? Yeah, I think the key
• 37:57
  thing is if you notice a change in an animal's behaviour. So we're not talking like a young
• 38:02
  puppy that just needs to learn something new or a new baby kitten. You know, we're talking an adult
• 38:06
  dog that suddenly there's a behaviour change. The very first question is why and go to your vet
• 38:14
  because behaviour doesn't just change out of nowhere. Something has happened. So vet first,
• 38:19
  check that they're okay. And I know people don't want to hear that at the minute with costs,
• 38:22
  but if you've got like a vet phone line with your pet insurance, like there's First Vet,
• 38:28
  I think is linked with a lot of them, use it. Like a lot of us don't realise it's in your policy,
• 38:32
  just ring them. Use your free 15 minute consultation, get peace of mind and check on
• 38:38
  your pet's health. And then I would strongly recommend just use the ABTC. So if you've got a
• 38:43
  dog training or a pet training question or a behaviour question, don't use Google, go to the
• 38:49
  ABTC. You can put in your postcode, you can find someone who's local to you. It doesn't have to be
• 38:54
  me. I'm always happy to work with people virtually. But so long as you're going and getting a safe,
• 38:59
  local professional, that is the most important thing. And most of us do, you know, free 15
• 39:04
  minute discovery calls. So you can have a chat, see if you want to work with us. And also just
• 39:09
  on their social media accounts, then you know you're following the right people and getting
• 39:13
  the right advice. So yeah, just use the ABTC. Definitely.
• 39:17
  Brilliant. Rachel, one quick question, actually. The ABTC, does that cover cats as well?
• 39:22
  Yes. Yes. Some people are only cats. Some people do dogs and cats. It just varies. You can search
• 39:28
  by a species as well. Some people do parrots. Some people do rabbits. You name it. I typically
• 39:35
  see dogs. I've only had one cat case. I tend to find people don't want to pay for cats.
• 39:43
  They don't insure them as often as dogs either. I do on the whole just find people don't want to
• 39:49
  pay for cat stuff. I want to change that. Most of the cat stuff I get is inter-household cats
• 39:54
  fighting or house-soiling issues and litter trays and positions of litter trays and making sure
• 40:01
  there's enough litter trays and ruling out whether they've got cystitis and things like that.
• 40:05
  Yeah. Yeah. You do get people who want cats, definitely. But it'd be interesting to know,
• 40:11
  like, yeah, how far people would go to look after their cat's health. It does seem that that
• 40:16
  cat support, cat health is behind dogs. I really want to know why but also push it because I
• 40:23
  want to get way more support and diagnosis and health care for my cat. I really think it's
• 40:29
  lacking at the moment. I want to do so much more. I want to understand why people don't do that as
• 40:34
  much. I wonder if it'll change. That's what I'm... Certainly, if we look at arthritis and
• 40:39
  musculoskeletal issues, cats are so much more agile and do so much more than dogs, but yet
• 40:44
  we're so behind in terms of identifying lameness in cats. Right, yeah. It's sad. It's really sad.
• 40:55
  Lesser. That's how I perceive it anyway when I look at clients and stuff. Because on my forms,
• 41:01
  I always ask, do you have other pets? And sometimes they won't even mention the cat.
• 41:05
  And then I go around and I'm like, you've got a cat? And they're like, yeah. And I'm like,
• 41:09
  well, that impacts the dog. There's a relationship there. You will get dogs that resource guard
• 41:15
  things from cats. You'll get cats that attack the dogs. There's all sorts. And people just say,
• 41:20
  I've got a cat. It goes and goes. And I'm like... So incidental. I wonder whether,
• 41:24
  because it feels to me, I don't know if I'm correct on this, but more and more people are
• 41:28
  getting indoor cats now. And whether that relationship will start to shift because
• 41:32
  there's an outdoor cat. I had outdoor cats as a kid. Yeah, they were there. They weren't there.
• 41:36
  They came and go. I loved it to pieces, but it was way more independent. My current cats are
• 41:42
  indoor cats. They go out in the garden, but they're with me all the time. And they were
• 41:45
  a constant reminder of that. They love me. They need me. They want things. And I feel like there's
• 41:49
  a much more of an attachment. We've had separation issues with cats, but then people will go on
• 41:55
  holiday and just pay someone to come in once a day to feed them. And it's like, hang on,
• 41:59
  your cat probably likes companionship. They probably want someone to spend a few hours
• 42:03
  sat on the sofa with them. The cats of old, yes, probably didn't care. Roaming around the
• 42:08
  local estate, popping in and out of ten houses as families. But like now, it's very different.
• 42:13
  And the other thing I see is if they're not out and they're probably not hunting and doing things
• 42:18
  that they used to do, from an enrichment viewpoint, a lot of the cats are bored.
• 42:23
  I wouldn't be at all surprised in the next kind of five, ten years if we get more cat aggression
• 42:28
  cases. Yeah, that's so interesting. Oh, that's so good. Thank you so much, Rachel. That has just
• 42:33
  been so lovely and so useful. Hopefully a lot of other people will think the same. Yeah, thanks for
• 42:39
  coming along. It's been great to connect. If you want to come back, you're welcome.
• 42:43
  Yeah, no, thank you, Rachel. I agree. It's been really insightful. It's given me lots to think
• 42:47
  about. I'm going to have a little poke around on the ABTC website, familiarise myself with that.
• 42:52
  And yeah, just sending your three wonderful doggies some love their way.
• 42:59
  Listen to our next episode of Pause Between Us coming next week. In future, we have lots of
• 43:05
  special guests signed up. And if you want to reach out to us, we're on social media
• 43:09
  and all the podcast platforms. So we look forward to hearing from you. See you soon.