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Israel and the End Times: Was 1948 a Prophetic Clock? · The Remnant Radio's Podcast

0:51
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
0:52
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
0:52
SPEAKER_00: Hey everybody, welcome back to the wonderful world of Remnant Radio.
0:55
SPEAKER_00: Uh, in this episode, talking about Revelation, we are going to be talking about the nation of Israel.
0:59
SPEAKER_00: It's going to be an interesting program.
1:00
SPEAKER_00: You guys stay tuned.
1:04
SPEAKER_00: Michael, we are back uh talking through your book by and large, because you've done so much work on your book, going through the book of Revelation.
1:11
SPEAKER_00: People can go check out that book at the link in the description.
1:13
SPEAKER_00: It should be released uh here pretty soon, uh, maybe at the time of the releasing of this video.
1:17
SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure.
1:18
SPEAKER_00: But you can for sure go have a pre-order in the link below, if not.
1:22
SPEAKER_00: Uh, but today we're talking about everyone's favorite subject, either uh you love to celebrate them or uh you're anti-Semitic.
1:30
SPEAKER_00: Those are the two options that we have before us today.
1:32
SPEAKER_00: I say that tongue in cheek because I don't believe that.
1:33
SPEAKER_00: I think it's silly uh how often people will make uh the conversation about where you stand on Israel a racist sort of thing.
1:43
SPEAKER_00: It's really silly, but it needs to be discussed from a theological perspective.
1:47
SPEAKER_00: And I'm glad to have my buddy, my partner in crime, Michael Roundtree here to discuss it with us today.
1:52
SPEAKER_00: Michael, uh, tell us a little bit about what we're planning on discussing, man.
1:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, talking about the role of Israel in the end times.
1:59
SPEAKER_01: And like you said, it's it's hugely debated.
2:02
SPEAKER_01: And you mentioned anti-Semitism.
2:04
SPEAKER_01: And I just want to say at the outset, I am greatly concerned by the way people on the far right have been talking about uh, and I'm not even trying to get political here, uh, but uh the way people on the far right have been talking about Israel is basically being responsible for all the world's problems.
2:23
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I read a book about the KKK a few um probably about a year ago, and it talked about how all all of these conspiracy theories about the Jews were arising at the time of the height of the KKK, and it became like part and parcel of the nature of the KKK, and I'm seeing that same sort of racism.
2:44
SPEAKER_01: And yet, at the same time, in the same breath, I'll say this, Josh, that like just because somebody doesn't view Israel's role as central in the end times, it doesn't put them in that category either.
2:55
SPEAKER_01: And I I think that we are way too quick to label people that we're either way too quick or way too slow to label someone anti-Semitic.
3:04
SPEAKER_01: And so uh yeah, it's a it's a real problem today.
3:08
SPEAKER_01: And uh and and yet the you know the scripture talks a lot about uh I mean obviously talks a lot about Israel, but there's a uh an eschatological dimension that we have to to talk about here too, and that's where we're gonna focus our time.
3:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, man, it's a it's an interesting subject for sure because the man, it felt like for a long time there were people who would say, hey, if you don't agree with us about Israel, you're anti-Semitic.
3:32
SPEAKER_00: But man, in the last five years, the uptick in real anti-Semitism uh has been so intense.
3:40
SPEAKER_00: And it's difficult because I wasn't seeing at the time, and maybe I was just living under a rock, I didn't see a bunch of Christians or self-professing Christians uh walk around with what could be anti-Semitic views, and yet today there there are, and and that's just it's a wild kind of paradigm to kind of make sense of.
3:58
SPEAKER_00: You know, the Bible says if we, you know, love God, hate our brother, truth's not in us.
4:03
SPEAKER_00: And I mean, I think this subject has been really difficult.
4:07
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, there for a while I had a group of folks at my local church, and in my local church, they were really pushing for, you know, circumcision and dietary laws and following festivals, and they were what the book of Galatians would call kind of Judaizers, and that's really unfortunate.
4:23
SPEAKER_00: I'm not trying to throw anybody under the bus.
4:25
SPEAKER_00: Uh, if you happen to be watching this episode, I apologize.
4:28
SPEAKER_00: But that's what the book of Galatians calls, folks, who are trying to force those sorts of things.
4:32
SPEAKER_00: It's serious, it's a serious concern on the theological side.
4:36
SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, I kind of preach through uh uh the book of Galatians.
4:40
SPEAKER_00: I preached through um, man, what what is required of us as Gentile peoples coming to faith?
4:45
SPEAKER_00: Uh, what's the requirement uh in the distinction amongst Jews and Gentiles?
4:49
SPEAKER_00: And and kind of made my theological argument.
4:51
SPEAKER_00: And those folks are no longer at our church, it's unfortunate because uh I wanted to see that transformation in their life.
4:57
SPEAKER_00: Uh, but the opposite is also true, uh, where you've got people over here who are wanting to become Israel, and you've got another group over here really, I mean, chastising Israel for anything that they say and do, and trying to come into the midst of that, um, you I think we're probably gonna get hit by both sides of traffic because we're probably not going to be yeah, they're gonna hate us uh either way because we're we're gonna probably say things that are uh uh corrective of the hey, we are gonna become Israel crowd, uh, because there is a distinction, and we're probably not going to appeal to the uh burn Israel to the ground crowd because we don't agree with those views either.
5:37
SPEAKER_00: So I I I often find that when we're sitting in the middle of the road getting hit by both sides of traffic, we're probably exactly where Jesus wants us to be.
5:44
SPEAKER_00: So uh uh let's talk about Israel, Michael.
5:48
SPEAKER_00: Let's let's set up this this whole kind of uh discussion because uh there's so many different places that we could go.
5:55
SPEAKER_00: Where do you want to start?
5:56
SPEAKER_01: Well, maybe we should start with the term uh replacement theology.
6:00
SPEAKER_01: And so uh this term has been thrown around.
6:03
SPEAKER_01: I don't like it.
6:04
SPEAKER_01: Uh I I don't anyone who is identified as replacement theology, they wouldn't identify themselves that way.
6:11
SPEAKER_01: And I think we should seek to be charitable toward one another.
6:14
SPEAKER_01: I know what's meant by it, but actually, no, I don't.
6:17
SPEAKER_01: And I don't even think it's always clear what people mean by it.
6:20
SPEAKER_01: So, like, uh if uh and and so I'll just tell you where I stand on this.
6:24
SPEAKER_01: If if replacement means that uh God has discarded the Jews and replaced them with Gentile people, then I unequivocally reject replacement theology.
6:35
SPEAKER_01: But uh, but I will say this I actually do, and we'll get to this, I do expect a widespread conversion of Israel per Romans 11 and a few other passages.
6:47
SPEAKER_01: And obviously those interpretations are uh are distinct but uh are are debated, but I do expect uh call it a Jewish great awakening uh just before the end of the age.
6:58
SPEAKER_01: I I actually do expect that.
7:00
SPEAKER_01: And so I do think there is significance to ethnic Jewishness.
7:04
SPEAKER_01: And even on that note, Josh, we have to distinguish a few things.
7:08
SPEAKER_01: We're gonna we're gonna need to at some point, and we can go into this however you want, like who are the people of God?
7:13
SPEAKER_01: Are there one people of God?
7:14
SPEAKER_01: Are there two people of God?
7:15
SPEAKER_01: We can we can talk about that.
7:17
SPEAKER_01: But let me talk about a few categories of Israel that we need to learn to distinguish.
7:21
SPEAKER_01: One is ethnic Israel.
7:23
SPEAKER_01: Uh, like people who have Jewish hist uh Jewish heritage, whether they live in the political nation of Israel or they're part of the diaspora somewhere, they are ethnically Jewish.
7:33
SPEAKER_01: You know, one of our co-hosts, Michael Miller, is ethnically Jewish.
7:37
SPEAKER_01: Uh and then secondly, we have national or political Israel.
7:41
SPEAKER_01: So this is the nation, the territory, the government itself.
7:45
SPEAKER_01: And I have found and been very concerned with uh while on on one side you have those who are like everything Israel does is evil and we must hate them.
7:55
SPEAKER_01: You have people on that side, or if they don't overtly say we must hate them, they imply it, uh, or it's the subtext of their speech.
8:03
SPEAKER_01: Uh, but on the other side, and this is the way it's been for decades, and I think one is a reaction to the other, is that essentially faithfulness to Jesus requires agreement with in and even support for everything Israel does.
8:17
SPEAKER_01: That's lunacy.
8:18
SPEAKER_01: In fact, that's a that is a recipe for falling into the the political warnings of the book of Revelation is if you give any government a pass, be it Israel or any other, no government gets a pass.
8:30
SPEAKER_01: So uh so we've got ethnic Israel, national Israel or political Israel, and then God's covenant people in Christ.
8:38
SPEAKER_01: And so this consists of both Jews and Gentiles, and Ephesians 2 refers to this as the new man, the dividing wall of hostility between Jew and Gentile is torn down in Christ, and we become a new man.
8:51
SPEAKER_01: And this was unique because even though the Old Testament talked about Gentiles are gonna stream into the kingdom, uh, it it was unclear exactly what that was going to look like.
9:01
SPEAKER_01: And if you asked your average Jew, it was gonna look like Jews are the center of the universe, and gentiles would be sort of like our supporting subjugated subjects.
9:10
SPEAKER_01: Uh but then Paul comes around and the New Testament uh is written, and we start to see Paul says in Ephesians 3, this is a new revelation to the apostles and the prophets, not before seen.
9:22
SPEAKER_01: So even though they saw Gentiles coming in, they didn't see Gentiles being on equal footing.
9:28
SPEAKER_01: He says, fellow partakers with the Jews.
9:32
SPEAKER_01: And so I am against any sort of hierarchy that puts Jews as like the super awesome best and Gentiles as second-class citizens for all eternity.
9:42
SPEAKER_01: And the way I hear some people talk, that is the way it's gonna be.
9:45
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I don't agree with that.
9:47
SPEAKER_01: I think that violates what Paul says in Ephesians 2, among other other places.
9:51
SPEAKER_01: We are fellow partakers, we are brothers and sisters in Christ.
9:55
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I do, you know, honor what Paul says in Romans 3 and Romans 6 that there is advantage in Jewishness, that theirs is the patriarchs, theirs is the promise in Romans 9.
10:03
SPEAKER_01: Uh and so I I I can see that, and I do agree with that, that there's an honor that's deserved there.
10:10
SPEAKER_01: Romans chapter 5, Paul appeals to uh the church in Rome to honor the Jews uh with their financial contributions because uh they received spiritual riches from the Jews, so they should be willing to contribute material uh of their material goods to their welfare, speaking specifically of the impoverished Jewish saints.
10:30
SPEAKER_01: And so there is a real honor that's supposed to uh to take place there, but that's not the same as saying that the end times is is entirely Jew centric and uh and we essentially have to just shy.
10:43
SPEAKER_01: This would be too pejorative.
10:44
SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna say it, but um I I would reject that.
10:48
SPEAKER_01: I so I I I'm kind of splitting this this issue here, Josh, and and then I'm affirming I I do believe in one people of God, uh, and and I do believe that Jew and Gentile are fellow partakers, brothers and sisters, of all the promises of the patriarchs that come to us in Christ Jesus.
11:09
SPEAKER_01: And so I I affirm all of that uh while at the same time saying, I do believe there is a future for ethnic Israel.
11:17
SPEAKER_01: I do believe one day there's gonna be a great um ingathering of Jew ethnic Jews who will who will be saved.
11:27
SPEAKER_01: And uh so I actually do think though that will happen too.
11:30
SPEAKER_01: So uh maybe no side will like me today, but that's where I stand.
11:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I there you you used the phrase replacement theology a moment ago, and I think that's important that we realize that that language is it right that it's called supersessionism theologically, but like in layman's term is often called um replacement theology.
11:50
SPEAKER_00: That that idea is like a label being tossed on people.
11:53
SPEAKER_00: And and there are varying degrees of this.
11:55
SPEAKER_00: I I'm not quite uh replacement theology, supersessionist to the nth degree, but every time I go into the Old Testament or the New Testament and I see the word Israel, that I rip it out and I put the word church in there.
12:07
SPEAKER_00: Um there are folks who do this.
12:09
SPEAKER_00: And yet I will also acknowledge there are texts given, it appears, to ethnic Israel that are fulfilled in the church, which I find really interesting.
12:19
SPEAKER_00: I was I was pulling up a couple of them.
12:21
SPEAKER_00: One that's worth uh taking a look at is in Hosea, um, there is a promise given to Israel, the those who have been uh dispersed in captivity.
12:29
SPEAKER_00: Hey, you're not my people, and I'm gonna, you know, reclaim you as my people.
12:33
SPEAKER_00: That is being given to ethnic Israel, but then Paul seems to address that in Romans chapter 9, verses 24 through 26 to Gentile people, like, hey, you are not my people and now you're my people.
12:43
SPEAKER_00: So a passage that was given to Israel is being fulfilled in the church.
13:02
SPEAKER_00: And I think that we should be able to say that in some part that that's got to be the case, uh or else Paul you know is in error.
13:08
SPEAKER_00: So there are times when that happens, times when it doesn't happen, but but it leaves the questioner, who are the people of God?
13:16
SPEAKER_00: Because if the promises of God are given to ethnic Israel and they're being fulfilled in the church now, is it fair to say that unbelieving Israel is not the people of God?
13:28
SPEAKER_00: How many peoples of God are there?
13:29
SPEAKER_00: Because, you know, when you talk to a dispensationalist, they'll they'll talk about Israel being God's chosen people.
13:34
SPEAKER_00: And then you talk to a reformed guy, and then they'll say, Yeah, they were chosen to bring about the oracles, to bring forth Christ, but they don't refer to them today as God's chosen people in in the same way that a dispensationalist might.
13:45
SPEAKER_00: So help us parse through some of that language.
13:48
SPEAKER_00: Who are the chosen people of God?
13:50
SPEAKER_00: Is Israel chosen in a sense?
13:51
SPEAKER_00: Uh help me unpack that.
13:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh great question.
13:56
SPEAKER_01: So I said earlier, I do believe in one people of God, in that there's a there's a covenant people of God, uh, which was mostly comprised of Israel in the Old Testament.
14:06
SPEAKER_01: Right now, it's more composed of ethnic Gentiles than it is of ethnic Israelites.
14:12
SPEAKER_01: Um, and and you know, you mentioned that there are passages where, and I'm gonna quote one, where it does really look like the promises given to Israel are really the churches.
14:22
SPEAKER_01: I mean, there are a lot of passages we could go to, but if this one specifically addresses the people, just like the one you just mentioned.
14:28
SPEAKER_01: It says, But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people of his own possession.
14:35
SPEAKER_01: So this is these are all Old Testament quotes that apply directly to Israel, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness and into light.
14:42
SPEAKER_01: Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people.
14:45
SPEAKER_01: So clearly, God's people is the church, because it directly says it in this statement, and it says so using Old Testament language that spoke specifically to Israelites.
14:56
SPEAKER_01: And so I do believe there's one uh one people of God, and uh and and yet at the same time, I think that language is flexible enough that I have to ask a follow-up question of what do people mean when they ask, are the Jews the people of God?
15:11
SPEAKER_01: Um, because an unbelieving Jew, for instance, well, they're not the people of God in Christ.
15:17
SPEAKER_01: Uh if they die in their unbelief, they will be damned just as any Gentile would be damned.
15:22
SPEAKER_01: So they're not the people of God in the sense that they're automatically saved on their account of their ethnicity.
15:28
SPEAKER_01: Nobody's the people of God on that account.
15:30
SPEAKER_01: We're all the people of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
15:32
SPEAKER_01: And if we have faith, we belong to the people of God in the uh eternally elect sense, so to speak.
15:40
SPEAKER_01: So, and I don't want to get lost in election uh debates, but that said, uh Christ does not erase distinctions in ethnicity.
15:50
SPEAKER_01: Uh, those still apply.
15:52
SPEAKER_01: You know, Paul's method of preaching the gospel was first to the Jew and then to the Gentile.
15:57
SPEAKER_01: And in Romans 9 through 11, he'll make an argument about the significance of ethnic Jewishness.
16:04
SPEAKER_01: And it seems like his argument is, hey, that distinction's not totally erased when it comes to enjoyment of the person of God and the promises of God, whoever has faith in Christ Jesus has full and equal access.
16:20
SPEAKER_01: There are no second class citizens in the kingdom.
16:23
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
16:24
SPEAKER_01: So uh so in that sense it's one people of God, it's the people of faith.
16:29
SPEAKER_01: Uh but in another sense, if by people of God we mean uh uh like in reference to Jews, if we want to include uh Jewish unbel like I I would be open to like say Jewish unbelievers, if people of God means that the covenants made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are still relevant for them, I would say yes, in this sense, in the sense that the word of God has not failed, as it says in the book of Romans.
16:58
SPEAKER_01: And it's not like God just gave up on the Jews.
17:01
SPEAKER_01: I believe there will be a final in-gathering.
17:03
SPEAKER_01: And so that's really where I draw the line is the final in-gathering, um, which, even though, you know, we talked about this, I'm an all-Millennial, but um, that sounds more premillennialist because premillennialists are more likely to emphasize that, although, you know, there can be some bleed over.
17:19
SPEAKER_01: I know all millennialists who believe exactly like me on this issue.
17:22
SPEAKER_01: And so uh I think we have to be careful about over-categorizing people uh eschatologically speaking.
17:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I I think I'm I'm with you, to be fair.
17:32
SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, obviously I've got a yeah, I'm gonna play that card where it's like, oh, I'm not racist, I've got a black friend.
17:37
SPEAKER_00: Like, one of my co-hosts is Jewish, so it's like I I I feel I feel with a clean conscience, you know, hanging out here uh talking about this issue in some sense, because uh I go, yes, I look at the book of Romans and I know some people disagree with me, but I go, well, actually, a lot of people disagree with me in the reformed camp.
17:53
SPEAKER_00: Uh, but I do think it is referring to an ethnic revival, if you will, of Israel, uh, kind of before the end.
18:00
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and yet, if someone were to ask me, are there people who who are the people of God, I'm gonna say unequivocally the church.
18:07
SPEAKER_00: And if they asked me and try to really press in on, you know, is Israel the people of God, I'd say no.
18:12
SPEAKER_00: Um, because there are all those are of Abraham are not of Abraham, and their ethnic lineage doesn't account for much.
18:19
SPEAKER_00: And when I look to, you know, the minor prophets in particular, um, God disinherits Israel, it appears, multiple times.
18:27
SPEAKER_00: In the book of Zechariah uh and the book of Ezekiel, I mean, we we have all kinds of language that has been given there.
18:32
SPEAKER_00: And man, I remember when I was teaching through Zechariah, the language there of like what is Jerusalem is fascinating.
18:39
SPEAKER_00: Because if you jump to you know Zechariah 14, it's like, okay, yeah, the city's gonna be besieged, it's very intense.
18:44
SPEAKER_00: It's kind of this in times army picture uh that I understood.
18:47
SPEAKER_00: But but when I went back to the beginning of the book and I and I read the references of Jerusalem and what Jerusalem was, that Jerusalem would be a city without walls, without a border, that Gentiles would be streaming into Jerusalem, that uh Gentiles would cling hold to a Jew.
19:03
SPEAKER_00: And I think that the singular there is referring to Christ.
19:05
SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, I I look at these kinds of passages and I look at the way Zechariah is referring to Jerusalem.
19:11
SPEAKER_00: No, I don't think every reference to Jerusalem and Israel in the Bible is in a reference to the church, but the way Zechariah seems to use it, it just makes sense that this is the people of God, the church being articulated in the only way Zechariah knows how to do to refer to the people of God as he knows them.
19:29
SPEAKER_00: Um so hidden in shadow, revealed in Christ.
19:32
SPEAKER_01: Right.
19:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:33
SPEAKER_01: So if by people of God we mean those who are saved, um, yeah, it's one people of God.
19:39
SPEAKER_01: You're only saved through Christ Jesus, whether uh through faith in Christ Jesus, whether you're Jew or Gentile.
19:45
SPEAKER_01: But if people of God is broadened to include that God has purposes for Israel, uh for the future, we both would stand in the same position.
19:56
SPEAKER_01: So uh so I I can get on board, Josh, with your articulation that like your first response is going to be um one people of God uh and and Jews are not it.
20:06
SPEAKER_01: And Paul will say in Romans uh that as it regards the gospel, uh their enemies, all unbelievers are uh in hostility toward God, and yet for the sake of election and the former promises made, uh they uh they are beloved.
20:22
SPEAKER_01: And so uh and so I think there's a sort of dual sense in which we have to even think about this question.
20:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, I mentioned a moment ago Jerusalem being sacked.
20:33
SPEAKER_00: Uh there's a lot of a lot of there, there's enough eschatological language of uh Israel being pretty central in in Times argumentation, uh, you know, to say that Israel had to be a nation again uh after their uh dispersion, after the defeat and the destruction of the temple in 70 AD.
20:55
SPEAKER_00: Here there are these dispersed people uh that that happened subsequent to that conquering.
21:00
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and then they're gathered back together to be one nation in 1948.
21:04
SPEAKER_00: And a lot of people said, look, here's the prophetic time clock.
21:08
SPEAKER_00: It is now all started.
21:09
SPEAKER_00: We we needed Israel to be a nation for the you know uh antichrist figure that we talked about in a prior episode to stand up in the temple and declare that he is God?
21:19
SPEAKER_00: We we needed uh Jerusalem to be a space so the nations could gather against uh Israel.
21:24
SPEAKER_00: Uh, we needed these sorts of things to take place.
21:27
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I'm just curious when it comes to your understanding of the book of Revelation in times theology, um, if Israel is not the people of God in the first sense that we referred to, um, what markers do they play when it comes to the kind of prophetic time clock and unfolding of history as you see it?
21:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I would say 1948, way too much has been made out of this date.
21:53
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and yeah, I remember listening to a preacher go on and on and uh about how all God's promises to the Jews are being fulfilled, they're fulfilled in our day, and there were all these statistics about people moving back to Israel and saying this is fulfilled.
22:08
SPEAKER_01: And and the the reality is it's not fulfilled because if you read any of the promises from the Old Testament about a return to the land for Israel, and there are lots of those promises, uh, they're always connected spiritually.
22:23
SPEAKER_01: So it's not just a physical restoration, it's a spiritual restoration that's at play.
22:29
SPEAKER_01: And so that that's the first problem.
22:30
SPEAKER_01: But I mean, to just give you an example of how this plays out and and uh and why this theory I think is gonna die in the next, I don't know, few years.
22:39
SPEAKER_01: But uh Israel was thought, so the the thought was like this 1948 was the start of Israel.
22:46
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and so people taught that was the beginning of God's prophetic time clock for Israel.
22:51
SPEAKER_01: And so they would say, you know, like since Jesus in the Olivet Discourse says uh, you know, he's talks about this generation will not pass away until these things come to pass.
23:01
SPEAKER_01: I am in my opinion, the most natural way of reading that is the generation that was living.
23:06
SPEAKER_01: Listening to Jesus talk about it is the one that he was addressing.
23:10
SPEAKER_01: And that is how first century Christians took it.
23:13
SPEAKER_01: Uh, when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies, just as the Olivet Discourse, as recorded in Luke 21, says, Jerusalem was surrounded by armies at the destruction of Jerusalem.
23:23
SPEAKER_01: And uh, yes, for the record, I do believe there's some dual fulfillment taking place in the Olivet Discourse, but we don't have time for all of that.
23:31
SPEAKER_01: Uh, but this school of thought says that in 1948, the time clock started.
23:36
SPEAKER_01: This generation means that Jesus would come back within a generation of Israel reforming in 1948.
23:42
SPEAKER_01: And so they counted a generation out, which they understood to be 40 years, which put it at 1988.
23:49
SPEAKER_01: And uh, and so then this was interpreted in various ways.
23:52
SPEAKER_01: Some said, well, since the rapture is seven years prior to that, go back and watch a rapture episode, uh, because the dispensationalists believe in a two-part second coming of Jesus.
24:04
SPEAKER_01: Uh the first part just before the Great Tribulation, where he calls the saints up to dine with him in heaven while earth goes to pot.
24:10
SPEAKER_01: And then the second, uh, and then at the second coming, he the glorious second coming, he uh comes back very publicly and judges the world, et cetera.
24:19
SPEAKER_01: And in between they would say is the Great Tribulation.
24:22
SPEAKER_01: And so some people would say, okay, if Jesus is coming back in 1988, you know, they would say, Well, you don't know the day or the hour, but you might know the year.
24:29
SPEAKER_01: Then they calculated in 1981 he's coming back.
24:32
SPEAKER_01: Of course, that didn't happen.
24:33
SPEAKER_01: And then there were books written, like 88 reasons Jesus would come back in 1988, and of course he didn't come back in 1988.
24:39
SPEAKER_01: So then they revised their estimation of what a generation is, and they said, Well, in Psalm 90, Moses says 70 or 80 years is a generation.
24:47
SPEAKER_01: Uh, so 1948 plus 70, what is that, 2018?
24:52
SPEAKER_01: Um is when they expected fireworks to happen, then it didn't happen.
24:57
SPEAKER_01: And so I've heard people say 2028 is when it's gonna happen.
25:00
SPEAKER_01: And of course, that's I say, of course.
25:03
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I don't expect Jesus to come back by 2028.
25:07
SPEAKER_01: I'm just telling you, I think we should all be ready.
25:09
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I don't believe the scripture teaches at any moment rapture.
25:14
SPEAKER_01: Uh anyway, you can go back and and watch that episode.
25:17
SPEAKER_01: I think there are signs preceding, and those signs have not occurred yet.
25:20
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I say signs preceding Christ's return.
25:24
SPEAKER_01: But um anyway, so there are all these calculations, Josh, surrounding a generation and surrounding this 1948.
25:33
SPEAKER_01: And so much is made of it, and yet the Bible says there will there will be a spiritual restoration for Israel, not just a physical restoration.
25:42
SPEAKER_01: And then there's a whole nother matter that has to be contended with, which is this that, like Romans 4.13, it says that Abraham was heir of the world through the promises made to him.
25:56
SPEAKER_01: So not just a promised land, but the whole world.
26:00
SPEAKER_01: Abraham was heir of the world, and we who believe are heirs with him.
26:04
SPEAKER_01: So uh I'm not one who believes that the land promises were annulled or canceled.
26:11
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I think they were expanded.
26:14
SPEAKER_01: And if you follow and trace that through line throughout the Old Testament, the territory seems to be growing and growing, and that seems to be what Paul is picking up on.
26:23
SPEAKER_01: And and and the idea is that just as Genesis chapter one envisioned mankind ruling over the entire earth, read Greg Beale uh on his book, The Temple and the Church's Mission, it's like expanding Eden to encompass the entire earth, to make the whole world look like God is in charge.
26:42
SPEAKER_01: Essentially a global Eden, that was the original vision.
26:46
SPEAKER_01: And of course, that went away, and they were exiled from Eden.
26:51
SPEAKER_01: And so God starts again and gives them a little plot, a promised land, just as Adam and Eve are exiled from Eden.
26:57
SPEAKER_01: Israel is exiled from that promised land.
26:59
SPEAKER_01: But each of these were just plots, and God's original vision was always the whole world.
27:05
SPEAKER_01: And so I believe God's ultimate fulfillment is gonna be in the new heavens and the new earth.
27:11
SPEAKER_01: And uh, and at that time, the land promises will be very fulfilled, not just for Israel, but as Gentiles, we are fellow heirs, and so we inherit the earth together.
27:21
SPEAKER_01: Matthew 5, 5, the meek will inherit the earth.
27:23
SPEAKER_01: I think that's the ultimate fulfillment.
27:25
SPEAKER_01: Now, one more question I want to address, Josh, is does that mean 1948 is completely irrelevant?
27:31
SPEAKER_01: I don't think so.
27:32
SPEAKER_01: Uh here's the thing: revivals tend to happen in places.
27:37
SPEAKER_01: Welsh revival.
27:38
SPEAKER_01: What does it mean?
27:39
SPEAKER_01: A revival has started in Wales.
27:41
SPEAKER_01: And so we can think of, you know, like there was debate over the Asbury revival.
27:46
SPEAKER_01: Is it a revival or is it an awakening?
27:48
SPEAKER_01: Whatever.
27:48
SPEAKER_01: It happened at Asbury.
27:50
SPEAKER_01: And so revivals tend to happen in places.
27:54
SPEAKER_01: Could it be that God is gathering the Jewish people all to uh all to one place, the uh the ancient land of Israel, whereby a widespread revival will occur and Jews in mass will come to mass will come to know Christ?
28:09
SPEAKER_01: I think it's possible.
28:11
SPEAKER_01: But even if that happens, I wouldn't call that the ultimate fulfillment, because when we follow the through line of the Old Testament and Romans 4 13 and new heavens and new earth, ultimately, I think that's where physically and spiritually Israel is restored and that and all nations inherit the earth together.
28:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think in the in the subsequent uh connection with that, you and I would both celebrate the fact that right now there is probably taking place in Israel more of a revival than there ever has been, in the sense that there are more Christian um Jewish people in Israel today than there's ever been, from what I understand.
28:50
SPEAKER_00: And I've gotten these numbers from other people.
28:51
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if they're accurate, but I only assume that they are true because I trust the people who have given them to me.
28:56
SPEAKER_00: Um so there seems to be a mighty work of God in Israel that we can all celebrate.
29:01
SPEAKER_00: Uh, genuinely, the heart of God is to take no pleasure in the death of the wicked.
29:07
SPEAKER_00: And for anyone who is a Christian, uh I think our default posture is to see a very big heaven and a very little hell.
29:14
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I I like what you said a moment ago of that the kingdom of Israel is expanding, Abraham's, you know, uh as as heir to the world.
29:23
SPEAKER_00: It's an interesting language because, you know, of his government, not Abraham, but of Jesus, of his government and of his kingdom there will be no end, like this idea of his peace continuing to conquer.
29:33
SPEAKER_00: And with that, there are some kind of usurping pictures that take place, right?
29:37
SPEAKER_00: How Jesus conquers.
29:39
SPEAKER_00: You know, um, nobody saw expected him in his first coming to come the way that he came.
29:44
SPEAKER_00: Uh, but then in the book of Revelation, we see some of those images compounded with who Jesus really is, what are these heavenly armies, what are the temple, those kinds of things seem to be redefined in some sense.
29:55
SPEAKER_00: You want to walk us through Revelation 5, Revelation 7, Revelation uh 11.
30:00
SPEAKER_00: And I might have put an S on one of those revelation on accident, uh, but but those chapters to uh, you know, kind of walk us through how the picture is being usurped in some sense and being reinterpreted.
30:12
SPEAKER_00: Um I'll let you walk through some of that for us.
30:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:16
SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, when it comes to eschatology, there are always expectations, and God has the full right and prerogative to annihilate our expectations and fulfill them in a whole different way, in a far better way.
30:29
SPEAKER_01: And uh, and of course, that's what he does in the first coming of Jesus.
30:33
SPEAKER_01: Uh, even though the prophets foresaw this, nobody foresaw it happening quite like it did, how glorious it is.
30:39
SPEAKER_01: And so uh I believe this is portrayed in Revelation 5, 7, and 11.
30:44
SPEAKER_01: And we talked about this, we touched on it in one episode, but in uh it starts in Revelation 5, where uh where John is longing for a redeemer, because if there's no redeemer, the whole universe is toast.
30:57
SPEAKER_01: And so he's sobbing, you know, weeping for this redeemer, and none can be found.
31:03
SPEAKER_01: And then he hears that there's a lion, which was the image of a military conqueror, which also represented your average Israelite and their expectation Messiah would come and he would toss toss around the enemies of Israel like beanbags, and then Israel would be on top.
31:20
SPEAKER_01: That's how they expected it.
31:21
SPEAKER_01: He hears of a lion, he hears, think probably thinking military conqueror, since that's what the image conveys, but then he turns and he sees a lamb.
31:31
SPEAKER_01: And the point is that Jesus did conquer, he just didn't conquer like people imagined.
31:36
SPEAKER_01: He conquered through sacrifice by laying down his life.
31:40
SPEAKER_01: Uh, they expected a military messiah and got a martyr one.
31:44
SPEAKER_01: And that see or that here and then see sequence, he hears of a lion and sees the lamb, shows that the two images are actually one image.
31:53
SPEAKER_01: It's just that the image disrupted their expectation.
31:57
SPEAKER_01: You start to see the same thing play out in Revelation 7 and Revelation 11.
32:01
SPEAKER_01: And what's unique about Revelation 7 and Revelation 11, scholars will sometimes call this an intercollation, uh, but basically it's a gap, the gray space between the sixth and seventh seal and then the sixth and seventh trumpet.
32:16
SPEAKER_01: Um, you you see this adjustment of expectation once more.
32:22
SPEAKER_01: And in between the like you get to the end of Revelation chapter six, Christ is at the door, people are crying out for rocks to fall on him, saying, like, who will save us from the wrath of God and of the Lamb?
32:33
SPEAKER_01: And you think the end is right around the corner, but John is just going to expand it like an accordion and show us more.
32:41
SPEAKER_01: And in between that sixth and that seventh uh trumpet, the seventh trumpet doesn't occur until chapters later in Revelation chapter 11, uh, which does portray the return of Christ.
32:54
SPEAKER_01: And so, right before, in that, like I said, that gray space, that intercalation, you see the sequence of Revelation chapter seven, and it follows the same sequence we saw in chapter five.
33:05
SPEAKER_01: John heard something, but then he turned and saw something different.
33:09
SPEAKER_01: He heard of numbered Jewish tribes, 144,000, but then he turned and he saw innumerable tribes from every time uh tribes from every nation uh and they're in heaven.
33:28
SPEAKER_01: And so just as uh John just as the lion is the lamb, by my interpretation, the 144,000 Jewish tribes are the innumerable tribes uh from around the world.
33:45
SPEAKER_01: They're one and the same.
33:47
SPEAKER_01: This is the church, and the significance of this is that the censuses in Israel's history, like that of the 144,000, it goes about 12,000 per tribe, uh throughout Israel's history, they would number their fighting men.
34:02
SPEAKER_01: And so just like Israel had an expectation of a military messiah, they also had an expectation to be part of the Messiah's army that would conquer the Gentiles.
34:15
SPEAKER_01: However, what we see is that rather than shedding the blood of Gentiles and showing that Israel was on top, as was the Old Testament expectation, uh, or I would say the Jewish expectation after reading the Old Testament uh typically, that adjustment, uh the expectation is adjusted because now they've laid their lives down.
34:37
SPEAKER_01: These are martyrs in heaven.
34:39
SPEAKER_01: The the they have a white robe, Revelation 7, just like the white robe given to martyrs in Revelation chapter 6.
34:45
SPEAKER_01: And so these are martyrs in heaven who, like their slain lamb commander, have likewise laid their lives down, and the gospel is spread to the ends of the earth.
34:54
SPEAKER_01: And so uh they expected uh they expected a military messiah, they got a martyr messiah, they expected to be part of his military, and yet the church spreads through the blood of the martyrs.
35:07
SPEAKER_01: So once again, it's an justed expectation.
35:10
SPEAKER_01: The church leads in sacrificial love because the church follows uh the lamb who was slain.
35:16
SPEAKER_01: Then you get to Revelation chapter 11.
35:19
SPEAKER_01: There was also an expectation of a rebuilt temple, Ezekiel 40 through 48.
35:24
SPEAKER_01: Never uh that promise of the temple had never been fulfilled up until that point.
35:30
SPEAKER_01: And we can talk about that temple here in a minute if we want.
35:33
SPEAKER_01: But there was this expectation of a rebuilt temple, and of course, there's lots of talk about it today, and uh, and so that uh in between the sixth and seventh trumpets, you see it again.
35:45
SPEAKER_01: Uh, there's another uh gray space, another intercalation where God will adjust Israel's expectation.
35:53
SPEAKER_01: And just as it was numbered tribes, but this time it's a measured temple, and that measured temple is associated with two lampstands, two prophets, two olive trees, uh, etc.
36:08
SPEAKER_01: I would interpret this temple to be the church.
36:11
SPEAKER_01: And uh, and so once again to kind of follow through it, they expected a military messiah, they got a martyr messiah, they expected to be part of his military, but the church actually lays their lives down in sacrificial love.
36:24
SPEAKER_01: Uh, they expected a rebuilt temple in this age, and instead that temple is actually us, and there are some intertextual connections where Revelation chapter three promises that we'll become pillars in the temple of God.
36:39
SPEAKER_01: Uh, Revelation 13 actually calls believers the dwelling of God, and uh, which is basically you know how the Bible talks about temple.
36:49
SPEAKER_01: And so uh this is the image throughout Revelation, is that temple is us.
36:54
SPEAKER_01: And so I don't agree with the preterist interpretation there that that temple is like you know a reference to the past pre-70 AD temple that would ultimately be destroyed.
37:04
SPEAKER_01: I don't believe that.
37:06
SPEAKER_01: Uh, nor do I believe that this is talking about some kind of rebuilt end times temple.
37:11
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I don't believe that either.
37:13
SPEAKER_01: Um, many people believe in two additional temples that will re be rebuilt, one at the end of this age, uh, where the Antichrist will, you know, take his seat in that temple, and then they believe in another future millennial temple, which will fulfill Ezekiel's temple.
37:28
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I don't believe that either.
37:30
SPEAKER_01: And the reason is there are uh and when Paul or sorry, John talks about the millennium in Revelation 20, uh, there's there's no mention of a temple.
37:41
SPEAKER_01: What a wonderful opportunity to mention a millennial temple and the fulfillment of Ezekiel's vision in Ezekiel 40 through 48, but he never does it once.
37:49
SPEAKER_01: But guess what?
37:49
SPEAKER_01: In the new heavens and the new earth, where God says there will be no temple, Ezekiel 40 through 48 is alluded to something like maybe eight times, which is to say John, John's vision portrays the temple of Ezekiel as being fulfilled when the entire cosmos becomes God's temple, which was the original design in Genesis 1.
38:11
SPEAKER_01: So, no, I don't believe there will be a future millennial uh temple.
38:16
SPEAKER_01: So that would distinguish me from premillennials, pre-millennialists, and no, I don't believe that there will be sacrifices made in that temple and you know, propitiatory sacrifices, as it says in Ezekiel.
38:27
SPEAKER_01: I don't believe that.
38:29
SPEAKER_01: Um, so anyway, but there you uh Josh, I've talked a lot.
38:33
SPEAKER_01: Why don't you ask me another question or poke a hole or whatever you want to do?
38:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because that that is also mentioned at the end of uh Zechariah 14 that Gentiles come and offer sacrifices at the temple.
38:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, a couple things that I think is interesting here.
38:47
SPEAKER_00: Um well, uh maybe some things I want clarification on.
38:51
SPEAKER_00: Do you think there could be a temple?
38:54
SPEAKER_00: Would that be prophetic, not prophetic, if there were a temple that goes up?
38:58
SPEAKER_00: You know, people have talked about the I think it's the temple institute.
39:00
SPEAKER_00: They've got all the stuff.
39:01
SPEAKER_00: They're ready.
39:02
SPEAKER_00: They they find a red heaver every five years and they're like, ah, we're gonna rebuild the temple if we're gonna get everything we need.
39:07
SPEAKER_00: Um one, could there be a rebuilt temple?
39:11
SPEAKER_00: Wouldn't it be necessary for a rebuilt temple just merely for the Antichrist to set up and say, you know, I'm God?
39:18
SPEAKER_00: Like, is it isn't that necessary?
39:20
SPEAKER_00: Um, or could that be fulfilled in the church?
39:22
SPEAKER_00: If it were fulfilled literally, would that would that undermine any of your theology?
39:26
SPEAKER_00: Would you have a problem with it happening literally, even though you take it metaphorically?
39:30
SPEAKER_00: What I hear you saying is, you know, Paul says, We're the temple of God, we're brick brick by brick, brick being built up uh into a dwelling place for the Holy Spirit.
39:38
SPEAKER_00: Look at Revelation, the prayers of the saints uh are this kind of incense that is going up, the the lamp stands that Jesus is amongst, is the church.
39:46
SPEAKER_00: So you see all these pictures in the book of Revelation uh of the church being the temple in some sense, in a kind of spiritual sense.
39:54
SPEAKER_00: Uh, could it could it also be a literal one?
39:57
SPEAKER_00: Do you have do you have negative confidence that that is actually going to happen?
40:01
SPEAKER_00: Do you think it's plausible that there is a rebuilt temple?
40:03
SPEAKER_00: Um, like like what's your take on some of that?
40:07
SPEAKER_01: Great, great question.
40:08
SPEAKER_01: So um it's really kind of twofold.
40:11
SPEAKER_01: On the millennial temple, I say absolutely not.
40:14
SPEAKER_01: I think it uh goes against Revelation 20 through 22, which I've already explained.
40:19
SPEAKER_01: I also think it violates the book of Hebrews, which I haven't explained, but maybe we can when we talk about the millennium.
40:24
SPEAKER_01: Um, but uh as for a rebuilt temple in this age, I think it's possible.
40:30
SPEAKER_01: And it wouldn't certainly wouldn't violate scripture.
40:33
SPEAKER_01: Uh I would say scripture does not demand that, but I can see how one would read the scripture and believe that a temple will be rebuilt because of the uh of the especially of 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, which borrows from Daniel chapter 11, where there is uh you know a tyrant in Daniel chapter 11 who takes his seat in the temple and makes himself out to be God.
41:00
SPEAKER_01: And and in Daniel's language and Daniel's understanding, he he probably would have thought physical temple.
41:06
SPEAKER_01: And of course, there's debate over whether that was Antiochus the fourth Epiphanes in Daniel chapter 11 or a final man of lawlessness, or both.
41:15
SPEAKER_01: And um, I would I would say both.
41:17
SPEAKER_01: I think it's first about Antiochus, but ultimately about a man of lawlessness, because Paul borrows that language in 2 Thessalonians chapter uh two.
41:24
SPEAKER_01: And when he uh and when he does do that, he says that um the man of lawlessness will ex will put himself in the temple of God.
41:34
SPEAKER_01: So very plausible that there is a temple that's rebuilt.
41:37
SPEAKER_01: And I know there are arguments for and against and why it should be the church.
41:41
SPEAKER_01: Uh the temple is you know symbolic of the church, and I just think we should be poised either way.
41:46
SPEAKER_01: I lean toward the church because that's how the New Testament normally talks about uh temple in these kinds of settings.
41:52
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and and so I think we should be poised for a wicked dictator, go back and watch our antichrist episodes, who proclaims himself to be God by essentially taking his seat in the church in some way.
42:06
SPEAKER_01: Um, maybe uh, you know, various ways that could happen.
42:10
SPEAKER_01: But uh man, if somebody was if there was a temple that was rebuilt and some kind of antichrist-like leader, some kind of man of lawlessness seeming figure, put himself in a physical rebuilt temple of some kind that was a Jewish temple in Jerusalem and made those same kinds of claims and was making signs of wonders and and saying to the world, worship me, and had a false prophet, but like if all that happened, I'd be like, Yeah, I guess this is what it was talking about.
42:35
SPEAKER_01: You know, like I think we should have some theological humility.
42:38
SPEAKER_01: I don't, I actually don't think anyone can be dogmatic about what it must mean.
42:42
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's where our danger comes eschatologically.
42:46
SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, I've I've stated my positions, um, but I reserve the right to be wrong.
42:51
SPEAKER_01: And I doubt I I I'm confident I'm not right on everything.
42:54
SPEAKER_01: I don't know that anybody is, and so I think we have to have a little bit of the theological humility here.
42:59
SPEAKER_01: And um, so that's how I would say it.
43:01
SPEAKER_01: I think that it could, in short, a uh temple could be rebuilt in this age, and uh that could be part of a fulfillment of prophecy, but the way the prophecy is worded does not demand that it's fulfilled in that way.
43:16
SPEAKER_00: I like that.
43:16
SPEAKER_00: I like that a lot because I I would I would hang out in the same space to say, uh, you know, you'd say I lean towards the church, but I'm open to a temple.
43:23
SPEAKER_00: I might say that I lean towards a temple, but I'm totally open for it happening in the church.
43:28
SPEAKER_00: Um, because I think there have been many antichrists, if you will, get up and declare that they are some kind of messianic figure.
43:36
SPEAKER_00: We we've had that even in the charismatic, you know, history, uh, where folks, you know, claim to have some kind of messianic identity.
43:44
SPEAKER_00: And uh I would, I would uh that that has not happened to the caliber or scale to which that could be fulfilled.
43:51
SPEAKER_00: Um, but uh I'd be more inclined to say if there was a temple built in Israel, every eye would be on it and we would all Christians would know, okay, here's your sign.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: So I don't know how it gets fulfilled in the church, but I'm open to both of those interpretations.
44:04
SPEAKER_00: I think that's a really great place to camp out on that.
44:08
SPEAKER_00: And I I'm very much looking forward to the conversation on the millennium because of that temple conversation.
44:14
SPEAKER_00: Uh I I have made the case, and and quite a few folks did not care for me when I said this.
44:19
SPEAKER_00: Um, but I said, look, if if there is a temple that is rebuilt and they're offering up sacrifices to Yahweh, it will be an abomination before God.
44:27
SPEAKER_00: Uh holding to Hebrews that we are rebuilding what he tore down, uh, and that the blood of bulls and goats does nothing to us.
44:33
SPEAKER_00: Um, but it actually is an affront to Christ's once for all sacrifice uh when when we do that.
44:39
SPEAKER_00: So if there is a temple that's a very important thing.
44:43
SPEAKER_01: Because there were different kinds of sacrifices and like thankgiving type offerings and wave offerings and you know those kind of things.
44:49
SPEAKER_01: But um, yeah, the the difficulty, and we'll get to this in the millennium, is that uh Ezekiel refers to them as being propitiatory.
44:56
SPEAKER_01: So the idea that they're just memorial sacrifices uh is strained.
45:00
SPEAKER_01: It's very strained.
45:02
SPEAKER_00: No, and uh I only meant in this age because you you mentioned in this age if there's a temple and in the age.
45:06
SPEAKER_00: To come.
45:07
SPEAKER_00: I when I say it would be an abomination, I am referring to what happens in this age.
45:11
SPEAKER_00: Uh, if there is some kind of like spiritual temple that like literally manifests in the earth in the millennium, I'm not gonna call that an abomination.
45:17
SPEAKER_00: God has built that, you know.
45:19
SPEAKER_00: Whatever, you know, I'll suspend a judgment on that.
45:21
SPEAKER_00: Uh I mean that if uh a group of Jewish folks were somehow able to figure out who the tribe of Aaron was through some vastly complex genetic markering.
45:31
SPEAKER_00: I'm it's on borderline science fiction at that point.
45:35
SPEAKER_00: Um, but uh hey, let's let's keep moving because I know you want to cover some more stuff.
45:38
SPEAKER_00: Uh Revelation 12, woman uh is viewed sometimes as the messianic community, 12 stars in her hair, standing on the moon, gives birth to a man child.
45:48
SPEAKER_00: I've heard a bunch of interpretations on this, but maybe we should hang out on uh and maybe if we have time, I'll I'll give you some of my uh crackpot interpretations and see what you think of them.
45:59
SPEAKER_00: Um yeah.
46:00
SPEAKER_00: But uh yeah, she she's sometimes viewed as Israel.
46:03
SPEAKER_00: Do you what's your take on that?
46:04
SPEAKER_00: Is that Mary?
46:05
SPEAKER_00: Is that is that Israel?
46:06
SPEAKER_00: Uh what'd you take on?
46:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, uh it so Israel is relevant to the image.
46:13
SPEAKER_01: Mary, I mean, so Mary obviously she literally gave birth to Jesus, and a woman is giving birth to Jesus in this scene, although he's like a man child, but still it's Jesus.
46:27
SPEAKER_01: And so uh is Mary relevant?
46:29
SPEAKER_01: Um, I mean, that's how the Roman Catholic Church takes it.
46:32
SPEAKER_01: I I just don't I I think the more relevant is is Israel because of the is of the way it starts.
46:40
SPEAKER_01: It says, a great sign appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun with the moon under her feet.
46:47
SPEAKER_01: Okay, uh, and she has uh 12 stars around her head.
46:51
SPEAKER_01: And uh let's see, it's sun and moon under her feet on her.
46:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, on her head was a crown of twelve stars.
46:56
SPEAKER_01: There it is.
46:57
SPEAKER_01: So uh this immediately makes us think of Joseph's vision and Genesis chapter 37.
47:04
SPEAKER_01: He has basically the same vision, and it's of the 12 patriarchs, and you've got uh you know each person represented by a different celestial body there, and so Israel certainly is in mind, and uh and Mary, the only real correlation there is a woman gives birth to a child, but when that woman is identified, it's the woman is identified with these 12 stars and the moon and the sun.
47:32
SPEAKER_01: Uh and so I I don't think that's really the image.
47:36
SPEAKER_01: I don't think this is trying to communicate to us about Mary, I'll put it that way.
47:41
SPEAKER_01: Uh, the other thing is I don't think it's trying to commute communicate to us about just Israel, uh or even merely ethnic Israel.
47:52
SPEAKER_01: Uh, you use the language of messianic community.
47:55
SPEAKER_01: I think that's relevant.
47:57
SPEAKER_01: Uh, because as relevant as Israel is here, it doesn't exhaust the image.
48:02
SPEAKER_01: Because as we keep reading, what we see is the woman, as she gives birth to the child, there's this dragon that called that ancient serpent the devil.
48:13
SPEAKER_01: And uh this reminds us immediately of Eden, where that ancient serpent, the devil, first tempts Eve.
48:20
SPEAKER_01: And so there are others who say, well, the woman is Eve, uh the mother of all the living.
48:25
SPEAKER_01: And uh, and I would say, I I think the woman is the messianic community, which is to say the believing community, which certainly includes ethnic Jews, also includes Gentiles.
48:38
SPEAKER_01: Israel is relevant because the only reason I, as a Gentile, am part of the messianic community is because of the promises made to Jewish patriarchs and the Jewish Messiah who died for my sins and rose again.
48:50
SPEAKER_01: And so uh Israel is relevant, of course, but I believe this is the messianic community.
48:56
SPEAKER_01: And Israel doesn't exhaust the image because as you keep tracing it back, it goes back to the ancient serpent, the devil, which we see in Eden, who tempts Eve.
49:06
SPEAKER_01: And as a result, the uh the curse that's stated is this to the to the serpent.
49:13
SPEAKER_01: God says, I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring, he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.
49:24
SPEAKER_01: It's a prophecy of the Messiah, uh, whose heel will be bruised, so to speak, in the crucifixion, but who will crush the head of the serpent.
49:33
SPEAKER_01: And interestingly, in Romans 16 20, Paul says, the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.
49:41
SPEAKER_01: So so Jesus crushes the serpent's head, but we get to join the serpent smashing party, and the church gets to be part of it too.
49:50
SPEAKER_01: But it all goes back to Genesis 3.15, where between the woman and her offspring and the serpent and his offspring, there will be enmity.
50:00
SPEAKER_01: And that's exactly what's portrayed throughout the rest of Revelation 12, where uh the dragon can't get to the woman, the corporate messianic community, like he can never crush the collective community, the church.
50:15
SPEAKER_01: Like the church will prevail, the gates of Hades will not uh prevail against us, right?
50:20
SPEAKER_01: The church corporately will survive.
50:23
SPEAKER_01: And so he tries to pick off individual members, the offspring.
50:27
SPEAKER_01: And so the individuals, Satan begins trying to pick off.
50:30
SPEAKER_01: He's cast down, Jesus defeats him, Michael defeats him, he comes down in great wrath.
50:35
SPEAKER_01: And I and I don't believe this is about like God's preservation of ethnic Israel somehow.
50:42
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I I believe this is the bigger than that.
50:45
SPEAKER_01: It goes back to Eden, it predates the existence of Israel, it's the messianic community, and the offspring are the described as those who keep the commandments of Jesus.
50:55
SPEAKER_01: Not all ethnic Jews keep the commandments of Jesus.
50:58
SPEAKER_01: This has to be the believing community uh and the individual offspring, individual believers that Satan is picking off.
51:06
SPEAKER_01: That's what's taking place in Revelation 12.
51:08
SPEAKER_01: And uh and the the language of Revelation 12 will use it almost sounds exactly like Genesis 3.15, where it is a war between the dragon and his offspring and the woman and her offspring.
51:20
SPEAKER_01: And now John's vision portrays the woman and her offspring at war with the serpent and his offspring.
51:28
SPEAKER_01: It's basically saying this ancient war is way older than Mary, it's way older than Israel.
51:34
SPEAKER_01: It goes all the way back to the garden.
51:36
SPEAKER_01: And then Jesus in John chapter 8, when like he'll show that this issue of offspring goes far deeper than biology, than complexion.
51:48
SPEAKER_01: When he when he has the Jews say to him, We have Abraham as our father, and he says, Actually, your father is the devil.
51:55
SPEAKER_01: And so even ethnic Jews can have the devil as their father if they're unbelieving.
52:00
SPEAKER_01: And that's true of anyone who's an unbeliever, Jew or Gentile, the devil is their father.
52:05
SPEAKER_01: Go read Ephesians chapter two, you see how this plays out.
52:08
SPEAKER_01: And so this is uh it's a battle between two family trees.
52:12
SPEAKER_01: The the family tree of faith, the family tree that's within the believing covenant people, uh, and the family tree of the devil, which is not.
52:23
SPEAKER_01: And there's a battle between these two family trees, and ultimately it's a spiritual battle.
52:28
SPEAKER_00: So Okay, I've got so many questions on this.
52:31
SPEAKER_01: Revelation 12.
52:32
SPEAKER_00: I I don't I don't know that you expected me to go this route, but I'm I want to read the text if that's okay, because I've got questions, okay?
52:39
SPEAKER_00: And a great sign appeared in the heavens, a woman clothed in the sun, the moon under her feet, uh, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
52:45
SPEAKER_00: She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains, uh, and agony of giving birth.
52:50
SPEAKER_00: And another sign appeared in the heavens.
52:52
SPEAKER_00: Behold, a great re a great red dragon with seven heads and ten horns, and on his head, seven diadems, with his tail he swept down a third of the stars from heaven and cast them to the earth.
53:01
SPEAKER_00: And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it.
53:08
SPEAKER_00: She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, and the woman fled into the wilderness where she has a place prepared by God in which she is nourished for a hundred one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
53:24
SPEAKER_00: Then we see the war in heaven, Michael against the uh the the dragon, dragon's cast down to the earth, and it seems like there's been an overcoming uh because of those who believe, uh, because of the blood of Lamb and the word of their testimony, right?
53:38
SPEAKER_00: So let's hang out here.
53:41
SPEAKER_00: If I'm taking a historical approach to this, saying this is a prophetic image of what has happened, I go, Israel is an ethnic people, Jesus Christ comes out of this ethnic people, he ascends into heaven.
53:54
SPEAKER_00: There was no Christians, like there was no, there was no that that wasn't a thing.
53:58
SPEAKER_00: So, like, how could this be anything other than Israel?
54:01
SPEAKER_00: You talk about the messianic community being a community of Jews and Gentiles.
54:05
SPEAKER_00: So I need to I need to understand some of that.
54:07
SPEAKER_00: And then my other question, and this had to do with one of my crackpot theories, because you you mentioned messianic community.
54:13
SPEAKER_00: Though I see only one child here being born, I also see that this child is given a rod of iron to rule the nations, Psalm 2 reference, but also I think a reference from Revelation 2, where the church in Thyatira, those who resist the woman Jezebel and the false teachings, they're given a rod of iron to rule the nations, which kind of ties into what you were saying earlier, that yes, this is a birth of Christ, but maybe the Christ we're united to Christ by faith.
54:41
SPEAKER_00: So, like both and like is there is there imagery there?
54:44
SPEAKER_00: Um how can well I guess I have room to believe that the woman is Israel, but I have a hard time seeing how the woman can be the Israel and the church, while also seeing that I see Christ, and I do see Christ in the church, because we are partaking in in Satan crushing activity or or serpent crushing activity.
55:03
SPEAKER_00: Unpack it for me, man.
55:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm not sure I totally understand the question, but um I I think what I would say is uh there is definitely some overlap between Israel and the messianic community, because by messianic community, replace it with believing community.
55:21
SPEAKER_01: Uh, there's definitely some overlap because Israel was comprised of many believers, the believing community.
55:29
SPEAKER_01: But the reason I say this is uh this is the believing community is because the language that occurs uh throughout, where like the dragon is making war on the offspring and those who keep the command of Jesus as it plays out, we see that he's attacking believers in Jesus.
55:45
SPEAKER_01: Although uh this first section in Revelation 12 breaks down into three sections, it speaks to the part pre-incarnation.
55:54
SPEAKER_01: And so uh and so Israel is definitely a part of it, Josh, but I don't think we can say Israel is the whole because it goes all the way back to Genesis chapter three, where the serpent, the ancient serpent, the devil comes into the picture, and where the um the war occurs between the two kinds of offspring.
56:16
SPEAKER_01: And if we follow the thread of those two kinds of offspring, it's those who believe and those who don't.
56:21
SPEAKER_01: And so I don't not sure I quite understand your question.
56:23
SPEAKER_01: So I just tried to answer something, hopefully that was it.
56:25
SPEAKER_01: But the other part of those who are in Christ, I think that's part of the beauty of this is that Christ shares his rewards with us.
56:31
SPEAKER_01: So uh, you know, in Revelation 3, he says, if you overcome, you'll sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat with my father on his throne.
56:39
SPEAKER_01: We who are in Christ are part of it.
56:41
SPEAKER_01: And in and sharing in the rod of judgment, now I believe that is eschatological, it's final, of course, a fulfillment of Psalm chapter two, but uh I I do believe that we are part of the eschatological judgment as well.
56:54
SPEAKER_01: We're not just rescued and redeemed, uh, but are but we're in some way part of the final judgment.
57:02
SPEAKER_01: And uh you kind of see that play out in, for instance, like Daniel chapter seven, uh, where the where the saints come out and top over these beasts.
57:09
SPEAKER_01: And so um anyway, so I don't know if I've answered your questions, but I I tried.
57:15
SPEAKER_01: It was it was a lot of verbiage there that you that you delivered me.
57:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I I think so, because uh you one, you said I think not all not all Israel is, you know, uh not not all Israel are those who come from the land of Abraham, because you go all the way back to Genesis, which is helpful, and we see the seed of the woman versus the seed of the serpent all the way back in Genesis.
57:37
SPEAKER_00: So that expands it beyond just the Abrahamic family.
57:40
SPEAKER_00: And then subsequent to that, we see many offspring.
57:43
SPEAKER_00: If you go down to 13 through uh 17, what we see is the dra the dragon pursues the woman and and wars against her and her offspring plural.
57:51
SPEAKER_00: So that's interesting because we only see one child being birthed here.
57:55
SPEAKER_00: But if this is the believing community that extends beyond just the line of Abraham, it makes sense that the believing community is still procreating, if you will.
58:05
SPEAKER_00: They're still doing evangelisms, people are still coming to faith.
58:07
SPEAKER_00: Uh, she has other children that are beyond just Christ, and that would certainly scope it beyond just ethnic Israel.
58:14
SPEAKER_00: I guess what I was thinking is just historically, well, obviously Israel gives birth to the Messiah.
58:18
SPEAKER_00: So, like, how could this be anything other than Israel?
58:20
SPEAKER_00: But when you keep reading and you go, oh, she's got more children, I guess that does make more sense.
58:24
SPEAKER_00: So that make that I think that's I'm I'm I'm I'm smelling what you're stepping in at this point.
58:30
SPEAKER_01: I don't have a problem with saying that I don't have a problem with saying it's Israel as long as we don't think Israel exhausts the image.
58:37
SPEAKER_01: You know, like I I think a lot of people will take Revelation 12 and they'll make it almost all about Israel.
58:43
SPEAKER_01: Like Israel is gonna be in a literal wilderness preserved by God.
58:47
SPEAKER_01: And uh I don't think that fits the interpretation because it ignores all the pre-Israel scriptures that are being alluded to in Revelation chapter 12, as if Israel is totalizing.
58:59
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's where I get my uh that's that's that's where I am distinct from those who there are those who totalize the nation of Israel as though it is everything.
59:09
SPEAKER_01: And these are also the most likely to support everything political Israel does.
59:15
SPEAKER_01: And and I don't think the end times are chiefly about Israel.
59:20
SPEAKER_01: I think Israel has a major role.
59:22
SPEAKER_01: The end times are chiefly about a particular Jew named Jesus, they're Jesus-centric more than they are Israel-centric.
59:30
SPEAKER_01: Now, I do believe the times of the Gentiles will be fulfilled and then all of Israel will be saved.
59:34
SPEAKER_01: But even as we live in the times of the Gentiles, I wouldn't say that the that we live in an age that's Gentile-centric.
59:40
SPEAKER_01: Uh, just as at the end of this, when Israel is saved, in my interpretation, I wouldn't call it Jew-centric.
59:46
SPEAKER_01: And I and I think you find people that land on one side or the other, and the Gentile-centric tend to hate Jews.
59:51
SPEAKER_01: And the Jew-centric tend to essentially worship Jewishness almost.
59:56
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's it's a little extreme, but in some cases it it it sounds a little borderline.
1:00:02
SPEAKER_01: And um, and no, I don't believe there are second-class citizens in God's kingdom.
1:00:07
SPEAKER_01: And so I I just want to interpret Revelation 12 on its own merit and not come with a bias that the end times are Jews are Jew-centric.
1:00:17
SPEAKER_01: I think they're Jesus-centric, who is a Jew, but I think they're Jew uh Jesus-centric, and uh, and that while Israel is prominent in this image, it is not exhaustive.
1:00:29
SPEAKER_01: It predates Israel.
1:00:30
SPEAKER_00: Well, let's let's walk through, I think, one of the final points here in our notes.
1:00:34
SPEAKER_00: We're already at 59 minutes, Michael, so we'll have to wrap up soon.
1:00:36
SPEAKER_00: Feel free to take as much time with this as you'd like.
1:00:38
SPEAKER_00: But um, the 60th, 69th week of Daniel, um, there's some interpretations that, like, hey, uh, Israel's God's chosen people.
1:00:46
SPEAKER_00: There's this little parenthesis that it's the church.
1:00:48
SPEAKER_00: The church gets sucked up and raptured.
1:00:49
SPEAKER_00: We kind of talked a little bit about that in a former episode, people can go check out.
1:00:53
SPEAKER_00: Uh, but then they say, once the church is raptured out, Israel then resumes that picture of kind of taking over as the people of God.
1:01:00
SPEAKER_00: We talked on that a little bit in a former week, but would you kind of unpack and respond to that uh that kind of thinking?
1:01:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:01:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Daniel chapter seven or chapter nine, let me open up to it.
1:01:12
SPEAKER_01: Um, so it says uh it comes in the context of uh Daniel's been praying, he's living in exile, he sees that the 70 years are approximately up from Jeremiah's prophecy from his original exile, which was 605 BC.
1:01:30
SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, it's it's like I can almost hear Daniel counting in his head.
1:01:34
SPEAKER_01: He comes across Jeremiah's prophecies in Jeremiah chapter 25 and Jeremiah chapter 29 that Israel will be exiled for 70 years.
1:01:41
SPEAKER_01: And he's like, huh, seems like 66 years, we're pretty close here.
1:01:45
SPEAKER_01: So he hits the ground, starts fasting and praying.
1:01:47
SPEAKER_01: Gabriel is sent in swift flight, and and in very short order, because this was the first year of Darius, um, in very short order, within about a year, there's going to be a decree issued by uh Cyrus that is going to say, Hey, Israelites go home.
1:02:04
SPEAKER_01: And in 2 Chronicles, it's going to consider the that decree the fulfillment of the 70 years word.
1:02:12
SPEAKER_01: And so, uh, which is right around the time within a year of when Daniel's praying here.
1:02:18
SPEAKER_01: And so there's a 70 years fulfillment.
1:02:20
SPEAKER_01: Hey, Israel, you get to go home.
1:02:22
SPEAKER_01: But Daniel's been praying for Israel's restoration, and Gabriel is going to respond with exceedingly abundantly beyond all he asks or thinks.
1:02:32
SPEAKER_01: He's going to say, Hey, this isn't just about uh your ticket home, your people's ticket home, and some architecture in Jerusalem.
1:02:41
SPEAKER_01: It's about much more than that.
1:02:42
SPEAKER_01: It's about a greater spiritual awakening that's going to take place.
1:02:46
SPEAKER_01: And verse 24, it says this 70 weeks or 77s are decreed about your people and your holy city.
1:02:54
SPEAKER_01: So remember, it's it's like he's taking it's like he's Gabriel is delivering a message from the Lord.
1:03:00
SPEAKER_01: He's taking the 70 years of Jeremiah, but now he's multiplying it by seven.
1:03:06
SPEAKER_01: So uh most interpreters would understand this to be 490 years.
1:03:11
SPEAKER_01: Um, whether taken literally or symbolically, people take it both ways.
1:03:15
SPEAKER_01: But um, the significance of 490 is that uh if you read in Leviticus chapter 25, I believe it is, I think around verses eight through twelve, it'll talk about the year of Jubilee, where you're to mark off seven sevens, and then in the uh which is 49 years, and then in the 50th year, there's a year of Jubilee where slaves are released and uh where ancestral lands are returned, etc.
1:03:42
SPEAKER_01: So it's a year of wonderful freedom.
1:03:46
SPEAKER_01: And so the fact that Gabriel's word to Daniel is building off of this same kind of language from Leviticus, and it's like he's taking the year of Jubilee and multiplying it by 10.
1:03:59
SPEAKER_01: I call it a mega jubilee.
1:04:01
SPEAKER_01: It's like he's saying, Hey, yeah, cool.
1:04:03
SPEAKER_01: Your people are gonna get to go home, they're gonna get to rebuild the temple as reading Nehemiah, they're gonna do all this wonderful thing, all these wonderful things, the rubble, all those guys we read about in the Old Testament.
1:04:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's great.
1:04:12
SPEAKER_01: But let me tell you about a spiritual uh restoration that's gonna surpass all of that.
1:04:15
SPEAKER_01: It's gonna be a mega jubilee.
1:04:18
SPEAKER_01: And uh, and then he describes what's gonna happen.
1:04:20
SPEAKER_01: And he says, 70 weeks are decreed about your people in your holy city to finish the transgression.
1:04:25
SPEAKER_01: So whatever happens in this 490th year, whether symbolic or literal, uh, transgression will be finished.
1:04:32
SPEAKER_01: You will put uh God will put an end to sin, atone for iniquity, bring about everlasting righteousness, seal both vision and prophet, which is to probably means to fulfill everything the prophet said, and to anoint a most holy place, uh, which some understand to be anoint a most holy.
1:04:50
SPEAKER_01: That's the literal, as in they take it to be a reference to the baptism of Jesus, that Jesus is being anointed.
1:04:55
SPEAKER_01: Um, and others take it to be a literal future temple.
1:04:59
SPEAKER_01: So that's just the beginning of it.
1:05:00
SPEAKER_01: And Josh, I'm not gonna have time to what he'll do from there is he'll break down the seventy-sevens into seven weeks, then sixty-two weeks, then seven more weeks, and then those last seven weeks are broken down into three and a half weeks, where an anointed one is cut off.
1:05:14
SPEAKER_01: Now, I'll start with all where all interpreters agree, pretty much, all Christian interpreters.
1:05:20
SPEAKER_01: The anointed one who is cut off is the one who helps bring about this into sin and atonement for iniquity and everlasting righteousness and fulfillment of all the prophets.
1:05:32
SPEAKER_01: The six promises made in Daniel 9 24 are fulfilled in this anointed one who's cut off three and a half years into the 70th week of Daniel.
1:05:43
SPEAKER_01: Um, but this is where uh some interpreters would agree, some would say it's not during the 70th week of Daniel.
1:05:50
SPEAKER_01: They would they would depict it differently, like there's this parentheses that happen.
1:05:54
SPEAKER_01: So that let me mention dispensationalists.
1:05:58
SPEAKER_01: Dispensationalists will tend to uh take this from am I going into too much detail, Josh?
1:06:04
SPEAKER_01: This is a lot of good.
1:06:06
SPEAKER_01: I know we gotta tie it up.
1:06:07
SPEAKER_01: But uh dispensationalists will look at this, and there were two decrees issued by Arta Xerxes uh that you can read about in Nehemiah 2 and Ezra, maybe around seven, something like that.
1:06:19
SPEAKER_01: And they occur in different years.
1:06:21
SPEAKER_01: Um, but anyway, they have various ways of calculating.
1:06:24
SPEAKER_01: One of them takes 360-day prophetic years, one takes 365 days solar years, but they essentially get the math to approximately work, or actually really close, some would say identical to um to Christ's crucifixion.
1:06:40
SPEAKER_01: And so that they would say this occurs kind of end of 69th week, beginning of 70th, kind of like in that gray space.
1:06:48
SPEAKER_01: And then the 70th week of Daniel is all like there's this giant parentheses.
1:06:54
SPEAKER_01: So the 69 weeks are chronologically sequential from uh from uh Nehemiah age or Nehemiah or Ezra, basically an Arta Xerxes decree and Until the coming of Christ, that's the first part of the timeline.
1:07:10
SPEAKER_01: Then there's this long parentheses where God turns his focus from Israel to the church.
1:07:14
SPEAKER_01: And then they would say, That's what we're living in right now, is this giant parentheses.
1:07:19
SPEAKER_01: And then the last seven years of history are the 70th week of Daniel.
1:07:23
SPEAKER_01: And that's where the rest of this is fulfilled.
1:07:25
SPEAKER_01: And if you keep reading, it talks about desolations and uh and you know, a prince who is to come, and uh and someone's and they would argue antichrist and all of this, an abomination of desolation, um to borrow language from other parts of Daniel.
1:07:41
SPEAKER_01: So um, anyway, so they they would say all of that will happen in the very last seven years of history.
1:07:47
SPEAKER_01: The rapture will occur at the beginning of that seven years, God's people will escape a great tribulation, and at the end of that seven years, Christ returns, all is made wonderful, and a launch of a new millennium.
1:07:59
SPEAKER_01: So that's one side.
1:08:00
SPEAKER_01: And then uh the other side, the non-dispensationalist side, uh, still sees fulfillment of these in Christ.
1:08:09
SPEAKER_01: And there are various interpretations we probably don't have time to get into.
1:08:12
SPEAKER_01: I would land on uh I don't think the Arta Xerxes census is relevant uh to Daniel chapter nine, because contextually I mentioned earlier this the decree under Cyrus that is much more relevant to the context of Daniel 9.
1:08:27
SPEAKER_01: I think context trumps.
1:08:29
SPEAKER_01: And um anyway, so I I do take a more symbolic view of the years, and I think uh that I could get into Ezekiel chapter four and how symbol is symbolic numbers are used there, uh, or even here in Daniel chapter nine.
1:08:44
SPEAKER_01: You mentioned Zechariah.
1:08:46
SPEAKER_01: Zechariah talks about these 70 years, 20 years after the 70 years are over.
1:08:51
SPEAKER_01: So I just think we should resist uh an over-scrupulous calendar uh on this.
1:09:00
SPEAKER_01: And I think the 490 years are symbolic of the mega jubilee, as I call it.
1:09:04
SPEAKER_01: And uh and I think that mega jubilee is fulfilled in Christ.
1:09:07
SPEAKER_01: Luke chapter 4, Isaiah 61, he quotes a an Isianic uh chapter about Jubilee being fulfilled in the Messiah, Messiah.
1:09:17
SPEAKER_01: And so uh I I think there's an already not yet to that.
1:09:20
SPEAKER_01: I think the anointed ones cut off in uh first of all, I I think the biggest weakness to the dispensationalist understanding, uh, the biggest weakness is that it after strict, strict chronology for the 69 weeks, it creates a gap that's not present in the text and says 70 week the 70th week is just gonna appear at some point in the future.
1:09:40
SPEAKER_01: I that's the very biggest problem with it.
1:09:42
SPEAKER_01: I I like how their chronology works.
1:09:44
SPEAKER_01: That's that's convenient, uh, but the start date for the decree doesn't work, in my opinion, and the giant parentheses doesn't work.
1:09:52
SPEAKER_01: And even the language of parentheses I don't like because it does make gentiles second-class citizens.
1:09:57
SPEAKER_01: I think it's partly responsible for why um why the Gentiles have been talked about in this way, uh, and why there's now an overcreat uh over-reaction in anti-Semitism.
1:10:07
SPEAKER_01: So I just think that we've got to learn to talk about uh each other's positions in a little more uh ireneic tone.
1:10:15
SPEAKER_01: But um, gosh, Josh, I talked a lot.
1:10:17
SPEAKER_01: There's so much there.
1:10:18
SPEAKER_01: It's like a whole multi-sermon that I could do on this, but um, but I I think the symbolic reading of it uh agrees the most with the context, which is a Cyrus decree.
1:10:29
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and I think it also agrees with how scripture elsewhere uses symbolic numbers.
1:10:34
SPEAKER_01: So that's what I would say, Josh.
1:10:36
SPEAKER_00: Man, I'll tell you what, uh that that's a good place to land the plane.
1:10:40
SPEAKER_00: I know it causes a lot of people to go, wait, there's so much more that I want you to touch on, which is why we would point you to the link in the description for the book.
1:10:48
SPEAKER_00: Go pick up the book.
1:10:48
SPEAKER_00: Uh, you can go do a deep dive into it.
1:10:51
SPEAKER_00: Uh, lots of really interesting stuff here.
1:10:52
SPEAKER_00: Thankful for Michael's work.
1:10:54
SPEAKER_00: Uh, man, I appreciate you coming on the show.
1:10:56
SPEAKER_00: Uh, because even even having written all of the work, it probably takes a little bit of time to pull all this up, kind of refamiliarize yourself, like uh Ezekiel, uh, Zechariah, Romans.
1:11:05
SPEAKER_00: I mean, we were all over the place today.
1:11:07
SPEAKER_00: So thank you for coming, being prepared.
1:11:09
SPEAKER_00: Guys, if you like this episode, make sure to subscribe, uh, share it around.
1:11:12
SPEAKER_00: Uh as I mean, I think this content is really important to speak about Israel, uh, speak of them with dignity and honor, because we in in in many ways have have gained and gleaned so much from Israel, giving birth to the Messiah and the oracles and the scriptures.
1:11:27
SPEAKER_00: So we we we want to give honor in that space, but then also acknowledging the people of God are those who have faith in Jesus.
1:11:34
SPEAKER_00: And the best way I think to honor those folks is evangelism.
1:11:37
SPEAKER_00: Let's let's preach the gospel in these spaces.
1:11:40
SPEAKER_00: That's an area where uh I think all peoples can agree, whether you're dispensationalist, you know, pre trib, post trib, mid trib, uh, no matter your position on the millennium, what we need is a big heaven and a small hell.
1:11:50
SPEAKER_00: Go out and do some evangelism.
1:11:52
SPEAKER_00: Guys, thank you so much for tuning into this episode.
1:11:53
SPEAKER_00: Uh, we'll see you guys next time.