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The Gerard Barron Pattern: Why a CEO Who Watched One Deep-Sea Mining Company Collapse Is Trying Again · How To Protect The Ocean

• 0:00
  Why would someone who watched one company collapse after destroying the
• 0:04
  sea floor go back and try it again?
• 0:07
  Like, this is not just a hypothetical.
• 0:09
  This actually happened with the same people, the same industry,
• 0:13
  and some of the same licenses.
• 0:15
  And the story that you're gonna hear on this episode of the How to Protect the
• 0:18
  Ocean podcast, it's not really, like, an accusation on this particular individual.
• 0:22
  It's really just a documented sequence of decisions.
• 0:25
  And by the end, you can decide for yourself whether
• 0:29
  what that motive looks like.
• 0:31
  Cause a lot of the times when we hear this type of story, the story of a CEO
• 0:37
  who is working in natural resources, where they're exploiting natural resources.
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  There's one thing of having it as natural resource that we've exploited
• 0:45
  in the past, but when they go into a new domain, and we really don't understand
• 0:51
  the ramifications that are gonna happen in this domain from this activity,
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  it really begs the question of, why the heck are we really doing this?
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  Is it really just for the money?
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  Is this just something, like, a business person kinda looked at?
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  So, what I wanna do today is I wanna look at what I call the Gerard Barron pattern.
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  And so essentially what this is, is you have this person
• 1:14
  who is a business guy, right?
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  He's a business person, and he wants to have business and develop
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  businesses, and maybe go into new frontiers and do something that would
• 1:22
  help his legacy or help their legacy.
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  I'm not just saying it's a man, it could be a woman, too.
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  And we see a lot of these people who wanna be CEOs, who wanna do something
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  bold and something really cool.
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  But at the end of the day, who is it really supporting?
• 1:37
  Who is it really helping?
• 1:39
  And so that's what we're gonna talk about in today's episode of the How to Protect
• 1:42
  the Ocean podcast, your source for ocean news, updates on science and conservation
• 1:48
  from Monday to Fridays every weekday.
• 1:51
  So, if you like this kinda stuff that we're doing, I'm trying something, like,
• 1:53
  a new storytelling thing this week.
• 1:55
  So if you've been with me for a while and you haven't followed, you can
• 1:57
  follow right now if you like this stuff.
• 1:59
  And of course, you can let me know.
• 2:00
  Just hit me up on my socials.
• 2:01
  The links are in the show notes, 'cause I'd love to hear your thoughts
• 2:03
  on this new type of, storytelling, I guess, is what we're really doing.
• 2:07
  Anyway, let's get into it, right?
• 2:09
  'Cause wanna know just why this really matters.
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  Let's talk about the person that we're gonna talk about.
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  It's Gerard Barron, who is the CEO of The Metals Company.
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  Probably one of the most prominent and best-funded companies pushing to start
• 2:21
  commercial deep-sea mining right now.
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  Now, TMC, so The Metals Company also known as TMC, is the company that triggered the
• 2:28
  two-year rule at the International Seabed Authority through its partner nation,
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  Nauru, forcing the pace on mining regulations before the science was ready.
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  They did this a few years ago.
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  It really accelerated and panicked a lot of people when they started
• 2:44
  to do this, because I remember covering, you know, talking to people
• 2:47
  who went to the ISA meetings, and these are done in Kingston, Jamaica.
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  And it got to a point where they were putting scientists
• 2:53
  and NGOs in different rooms.
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  So it made it a lot more difficult for them to discuss
• 2:58
  with member nations, especially if member nations had questions.
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  So we had experts like Dr. Diva Amon, who were, like, in separate rooms.
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  She's a deep-sea scientist, deep-sea ecologist.
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  She's the one that you should be going to, being like, "Hey, if we decide to
• 3:09
  do this, what would be the consequences? Like, can we do this? Can we not do
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  this?" And they were in different rooms, so it made it really difficult
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  for them to have that kind of connection.
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  So TMC was responsible for doing this.
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  They have been the one pushing for this stuff.
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  And I should mention again, according to the, like, this is the idea of the story,
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  that when TMC pushed that two-year rule, all of a sudden their stock went up.
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  And the CEO, Gerard Barron, made millions off of it.
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  So, like, all of this is all related to this story and to the
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  sort of motive of what is really the motive of some of these CEOs.
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  Now, TMC is also the company that has pursued the unilateral path
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  through the Trump administration and NOAA to get a mining permit
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  outside of the ISA process entirely.
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  Now, the US is not part of the UNCLOS, which is the UN
• 3:55
  Convention of the Law of the Sea.
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  They're not ratified, I guess.
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  They're not signed onto it.
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  They can't be a part of the International Seabed Authority, member committee
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  meetings and things like that.
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  But they can pursue their own deep sea mining path in
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  their exclusive economic zone.
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  So whatever happens with deep sea mining over the next few years
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  in the Clarion-Clipperton Zone specifically, largely runs through
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  this one company and this one CEO.
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  And recently, like just as a couple of days ago as of recording this
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  podcast, the US issued another leasing license, or the announcement
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  that they're gonna be issuing another leasing license just outside the
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  CNMI, so the, Northern Mariana Islands.
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  And it's like a 69 million acre area.
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  And this is all pushed on by this CEO, by Gerard Barron.
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  This is where it all begins.
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  Like, this is where we're at right now.
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  We're at this precipice of going into a new frontier and doing
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  something new, a frontier that we don't really know much about.
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  We haven't surveyed, we haven't mapped a lot of the areas.
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  We know specific areas, and we know that there has been damage done by deep sea
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  mining through, like, this research thing.
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  We know that there are studies that show that for three or four years after deep
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  sea mining has occurred, the biodiversity that was affected did not recover.
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  So we know there's not a quick recovery to deep sea mining
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  when this damage has been done.
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  The question is, really is, do people care?
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  Because it seems like people like Gerard Barron are gonna continue to pursue
• 5:21
  this dream to be able to go there.
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  But to understand sort of like the mind of a CEO such as Gerard Barron,
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  we have to go back to his story.
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  So he started off as an ad tech business CEO, Adstream, which
• 5:34
  was founded in Sydney in 2000 by three others, Brett Sullivan,
• 5:38
  Julian Chow, and James Carpenter.
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  It was basically to solve the delivery of TV commercials and
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  ad materials to broadcasters.
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  So as the digital age was coming in, this was something that was really important.
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  So Barron became the CEO once the company needed investment and formal leadership
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  with a holding company formalized in 2001, which is the date of most of his official
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  bios point and as to when he founded it.
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  He was the CEO, but did he really found it?
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  Apparently there's a bit of controversy around there.
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  Now, under Barron, the Adstream grew from a single office in Sydney
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  to more than 40 offices in 30 countries, eventually pulling in
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  over $100 million a year in revenue.
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  Now, he ran it as a CEO until December 2013.
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  And so, like, he wasn't a mining person before this.
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  He was a business person.
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  He was going into ad revenue.
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  That he was providing digital ads to TV shows and programs and things like that.
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  Nothing this crazy, but he was definitely into technology,
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  but in the advertising space.
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  He was an advertising exec.
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  So he was like the mad men of the '50s, but he was in the 2000s, right?
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  So it's obviously a lucrative deal.
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  He did very well in growing the company, whether it's all of him or the people
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  that were under him, who knows, right?
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  But, you know, when you're a CEO, you're the one who gets the credit for all this
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  that's happening and good on him for being able to grow that company to that amount.
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  Now, his friend David Hayden, a geologist he knew through tennis,
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  pitched him on a new venture.
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  An underwater mining company called Nautilus Minerals around the same time
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  Adstream was getting off the ground.
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  So this is around 2001.
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  He said it pretty plainly in his own words to NPR, that he knew very little about
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  the ocean and very little about mining.
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  But he was curious.
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  It was a new frontier.
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  In a separate interview, he described being fascinated to learn
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  that the ocean is full of metal.
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  Not the ocean is teeming with life, the ocean is full of metal.
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  And that it seemed like an interesting project, despite knowing nothing
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  about mining and never having invested in a mining company before.
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  So this is completely new.
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  It's a big challenge for him.
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  Doesn't know much about the ocean, intrigued that there's metal.
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  This is something that's really interesting.
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  Now, years later, reflecting on that decision at a mining conference, he
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  said he was fascinated by the new ideas and probably knew too little
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  to be scared of the challenges.
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  So if he had gone back again, maybe he wouldn't have done it.
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  But he did put in his own money and helped round up other investors.
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  So, you're looking at a guy from Adstream, gets presented with this deal to invest
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  in this company called Nautilus Minerals.
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  And so he has this area.
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  And so it's not as if he's been intrigued by the ocean, intrigued
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  by the metal all of his life.
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  He comes from ad tech businesses, grows that really well and now into a new
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  challenge and be like, "Hey, I don't know much about the ocean, so I'm probably not
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  scared enough to really understand how difficult it is to do deep sea mining."
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  So I think, he's someone who didn't really understand business risks.
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  He put in a lot of his own money, and he got investors to do it as well.
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  So, you know, he's very good at bringing in money.
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  He's a very good CEO, he's a very good business person in
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  convincing people to bring in.
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  And he's consistently told the same story across, interviews
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  at, like, spanning years.
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  So it's not as if he switches his story.
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  Like, he just knows what he went through and how he felt, and he's
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  sticking to those type stories.
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  Well, now whether that happened exactly, I have no idea.
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  I don't wanna, like, put words into his mouth, but this is what
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  he's been saying over the years.
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  Now, Nautilus went after underwater mineral deposits
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  called seafloor massive sulfides.
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  So off the coast of Papua New Guinea, rich in copper, gold, silver, and zinc.
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  And the company eventually raised hundreds of millions of dollars
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  from investors, including the government of Papua New Guinea itself.
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  And this is really important to understand.
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  Now, Barron sold his shares and exited, walking away, a return
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  reported as high as $30 million on his own original investment.
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  So made money.
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  As a business person, this guy made a boatload of money.
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  He started early, left early, before anything could really be
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  done, got the government of Papua New Guinea itself to invest in it.
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  And a lot of times the CEO is that, is the mouthpiece, is the messenger.
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  They're the person who you look to for the success.
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  He's had a successful ad tech business.
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  He's getting into this.
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  He's got a lot of investors, including a government who probably doesn't have
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  a lot of money, like in developing countries like Papua New Guinea, but
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  they're invested in what he talked about.
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  Sold his shares, made a reported 30 million.
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  This is interesting 'cause it's like the first time, like he got into like deep
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  sea mining, got out, made a ton of money.
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  This was good.
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  Didn't even mine anything at this point, like commercially.
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  They may have done some little research here and there, but didn't
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  even mine anything commercially.
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  But he got out before anything could have gone wrong.
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  That's where the key comes in.
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  Now, Barron was never Nautilus' CEO or manager.
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  He was an early investor and a promoter who helped raise the money, while
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  David Hayden served as the company's actual CEO, his friend who originally
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  presented the idea from 2002 to 2008.
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  Now, by Barron's own account, he had largely sold out of his position
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  by the time Papua New Guinea government invested in the project.
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  So it's not as if he convinced it in there well over a decade
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  before this company went bankrupt.
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  Now, Barron himself has named three reasons for the collapse.
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  So he talked about the wrong technology for the job, the difficulty in operating
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  and developing in a nation like Papua New Guinea, and simply never finding as
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  much of the target resource as expected.
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  So really everything that could have gone wrong went wrong, but it's a new company.
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  It's something that's new.
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  Deep sea mining hasn't really been done that much before.
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  Now, independent reporting adds financial detail to this whole thing.
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  Nautilus originally projected operating costs of about $70 per ton, but those
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  costs spiraled into $192 per ton, which triggered its delisting from the Toronto
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  Stock Exchange here in Canada, and its filing for creditor protection.
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  So it couldn't really make the money that it really wanted.
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  And then, of course, Papua New Guinea's own prime minister said the country
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  burned through nearly 300 million kina, which is their money, which is
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  equivalent to about $72 million US, calling the project a total failure.
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  Now, on the operational side, a shipyard building the company's
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  specialized support vessel canceled the contract after Nautilus failed
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  to pay an $18 million installment.
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  So that's another thing that went wrong.
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  So not only did they leave the government hanging, they left the
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  shipyard who was building the ship.
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  And Nautilus filed for bankruptcy protection in a Canadian court in
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  February 2019, failed to find a buyer during the restructuring, and
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  was fully liquidated by that August.
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  Now, along the way, the project destroyed sensitive seabed habitat
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  in Papua New Guinea's waters.
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  Now, the government's which had invested heavily in the project, was left
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  facing not only a debt equivalent of roughly a third of the country's annual
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  health budget, but also, part of the environment that was destroyed of what
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  they were trying to bring together.
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  So right now, if you really look at it, the business people have learned that if
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  you create a company and you talk about mining in a new frontier, the deep sea,
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  you can get a lot of interest from people.
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  People who may not understand the ocean, business people who may not understand the
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  ocean, but have the money to invest large sums of money, like, tens of millions
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  of dollars to put things together.
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  And as a business person, if you get out at the right time, or an investor,
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  if you get out at the right time, you can make your money because of
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  all, just the excitement of it all.
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  Everybody's putting in money, putting in money, so your stock goes up.
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  And I'm not an economist, I don't understand all that, but I know your
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  stock goes up to the point where Barron's is like, "Hey, you know what?
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  I'm gonna get out.
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  I got $30 million now compared to my initial investment.
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  Like, that's pretty cool." Right now, this entire company, everybody
• 12:34
  who was involved, not just Baron.
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  Baron got out before really all the damages was done.
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  But, you look at what this company did, caused damage and took out a lot of the
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  money from Papua New Guinea's government, which probably didn't have the money to
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  really burn through like that, just in general because it's a developing country
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  and its people need other things, right?
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  But they, took a chance and they lost.
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  So Pacific Nation invested public money and got left holding both the
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  financial and environmental damage.
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  But some of the business people made money.
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  This is what really happened.
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  Now, in 2011, so people connected to Nautilus, including Hayden, started
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  a new company called DeepGreen.
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  Now, Baron became involved early, then took over as chairman and CEO in 2018.
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  So we advanced almost 10 years.
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  Now, DeepGreen eventually became the Metals Company, which is
• 13:16
  also known as TMZ, which we know now is still active today.
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  Now, TMC's exploring license in the Clarion-Clipperton Zone once belonged to
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  Nautilus, so it got taken over by TMC.
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  So this is look- looks like a deja vu.
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  You get the both people who were initially involved in Nautilus.
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  You got Hayden and Baron both involved together again.
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  Baron made money.
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  I don't know exactly how Hayden kinda left after Nautilus, but they made money.
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  And now they're taking over the leases that Nautilus had into an
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  area called the Clarion- Clipperton Zone, which is in the Pacific.
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  It's a deep sea area that's known to have minerals, like these
• 13:49
  critical minerals for batteries.
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  Like, you gotta remember, this is all for, and especially now, EVs
• 13:54
  are really starting to catch on.
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  The batteries need critical minerals.
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  Not only do the EVs need it, but they also, like phones and everything
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  like that, we need critical minerals.
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  There are reports and videos of people in the Congo who are actively
• 14:06
  mining, open-pit mining for these minerals that are going through
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  awful human rights crimes and they're being treated like crap.
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  They're dying, and there are kids that are in there and all that.
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  It's awful.
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  So you have this, this area where it's like we're not harming anybody,
• 14:19
  like from a human rights perspective.
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  Now we can see.
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  We've already been through it, and then from a business perspective,
• 14:24
  we've made a lot of money from it, or at least Baron has.
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  And so, hey, why don't we just try and take this again?
• 14:30
  We have a lease.
• 14:31
  We can do it.
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  Now going back on Nautilus, Barron said publicly that he and his
• 14:35
  colleagues are not ashamed of what happened with Nautilus, even
• 14:38
  though they left the government hanging and the environment damaged.
• 14:41
  He comparing themselves to pioneers who end up with arrows in the back,
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  and arguing that without Nautilus, the wider deep sea mining industry
• 14:48
  would never have gotten started.
• 14:49
  And that's probably true.
• 14:50
  Like, they're probably pioneers in that area, but they
• 14:52
  haven't shown that it worked.
• 14:55
  They didn't have the right equipment.
• 14:56
  It wasn't the right materials that they were going after.
• 14:59
  And they eventually, they just couldn't do it with the equipment that they had, and
• 15:02
  they couldn't make it financially viable.
• 15:04
  The mistakes he names are technical and financial, not environmental.
• 15:07
  He never mentioned the environment, never mentioned the damage of the environment.
• 15:10
  He specifically criticizes equipment Nautilus used on the sea
• 15:13
  floor, like I mentioned before.
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  Calling those machines big, angry rock grabbers that filled him with
• 15:18
  horror, and contrast that with the nodule collection machine TMC uses
• 15:23
  now, which he calls gentle giants.
• 15:25
  Now, these are still machines.
• 15:26
  These are still things that are gonna be grabbing things, and they're gonna get
• 15:29
  into the sand, they're gonna get into the bottom, and they're gonna muck it all up.
• 15:33
  Now, he frames the location as part of the problem, too, in Papua New
• 15:36
  Guinea, noting that the challenge of operating in a developing nation
• 15:39
  like Papua New Guinea says that he had largely sold out of the project
• 15:42
  by the time the government invested, but didn't really tell the government
• 15:44
  that he was sold out, that I know of,
• 15:47
  Cause they bought in huge.
• 15:48
  To a third of what they could have.
• 15:51
  So again, no regret on his part from the environmental aspect.
• 15:55
  Made a ton of money from that project, and is ready to do it again because he
• 15:59
  thinks now they're in a different zone.
• 16:01
  It's in the high seas, so it's not tied to a specific country, let alone a developing
• 16:05
  country, so don't have to deal with those.
• 16:07
  And he says he's got better vehicles now, and he can do it better.
• 16:11
  But again, not talking about the environment.
• 16:13
  More talking about the business and the sustainability economically.
• 16:17
  So the regret's more about the geography and equipment, not the environment.
• 16:20
  Now, across multiple interviews spanning years, Barron has not expressed
• 16:23
  uncertainty or worry about whether deep sea mining itself harms the ocean,
• 16:27
  which a lot of people are talking about.
• 16:29
  And his consistent argument is a comparison one.
• 16:31
  He said that mining the seabed is less environmentally damaged
• 16:34
  than mining on land, right?
• 16:36
  In the BBC interview, he described the Clarion-Clipperton Zone as having
• 16:39
  essentially zero plant life and only about 10 grams of biomass per square
• 16:43
  meter, compared to the far higher biomass equatorial rainforest, where
• 16:47
  land-based nickel mining happens.
• 16:49
  So when Greenpeace published a report critical of the deep sea mining industry,
• 16:52
  TMC's response was that Greenpeace had fundamentally misunderstood the
• 16:55
  industry, not that the concerns had merit.
• 16:58
  And by the way, the 10 grams of biomass per square meter,
• 17:01
  it wasn't even close to that.
• 17:02
  It was a lot higher.
• 17:04
  Again, so looking at the character of the CEO, not just Barron, but a CEO
• 17:09
  looking at, " Hey, I have this industry.
• 17:11
  I made a ton of money last time.
• 17:13
  I'm gonna go into it again, even though it didn't survive, and 'cause
• 17:17
  I think I can do it better this time.
• 17:18
  We don't have to worry about the country, the geography, we don't
• 17:20
  have to worry about the equipment," according to him, according to the
• 17:23
  CEO, But he never is really concerned about this desert of a deep sea, and
• 17:28
  it's better than mining in a rainforest that it was done in the Congo.
• 17:33
  We're still looking at, is it really equitable?
• 17:35
  I don't know.
• 17:36
  But obviously there's the extra added like human rights offenses that happened
• 17:40
  in a lot of these mines in Africa and the Congo where this happens.
• 17:44
  Again, you're looking at a business person who wants business, who
• 17:47
  wants this to survive so he can make a boat ton of money.
• 17:51
  Now, the Wall Street Journal summarized the arc, this way
• 17:54
  when the TMZ went public.
• 17:55
  The company Baron backed for the first time lost half a billion
• 17:58
  dollars, got crosswise with the South Pacific government, destroyed
• 18:02
  sensitive seabed habitat, and went broke, and now he's trying it
• 18:06
  again because he made $30 million.
• 18:07
  The company lost half a billion, but he made $30 million.
• 18:12
  Again, it's just like this came like a mainstream financial publication.
• 18:17
  It's not just like an environmentalist here.
• 18:19
  it's something like a publication that looks at like finances.
• 18:22
  That's what they look at.
• 18:24
  And I think when we look at how this is pursued, , if you take the Gerard
• 18:29
  Baron pattern and you kind of blow it up a little bit and you look around to
• 18:33
  other natural resource companies or even other companies, the people involved
• 18:38
  a lot of the time see the process.
• 18:40
  You know, they see the operations.
• 18:42
  They don't necessarily see ahead of the damage that they could cause.
• 18:47
  We're looking at a new frontier in the deep sea that
• 18:50
  we don't know anything about.
• 18:52
  We're looking at doing something that could damage something that
• 18:55
  could really mess up our planet if we knew what we were messing up.
• 18:59
  We saw damage done off the coast of Papua New Guinea.
• 19:02
  We saw studies saying that the recovery is not four years.
• 19:05
  It's longer than that.
• 19:07
  We don't know how much.
• 19:07
  But we've also seen studies in the deep sea that I covered yesterday where
• 19:11
  we look at seamount trawling and, you know, you're looking at destroying
• 19:14
  habitat that took centuries to create because they're such slow-growing
• 19:17
  species that create this habitat.
• 19:20
  What if that happens down there?
• 19:21
  We will never be able to know the loss of any kind of endemic species
• 19:25
  that could be beneficial to the human species later on in life as we start
• 19:30
  to discover more about the ocean.
• 19:33
  You see, Scripps, Oceanog- Institute of Oceanography.
• 19:36
  You see Nautilus Live.
• 19:37
  They go deep.
• 19:38
  They take their ROVs, and they do public education.
• 19:40
  So does Ocean Networks Canada.
• 19:42
  They do public education of the deep sea.
• 19:44
  So we're starting to be able to have the technology to go in and see what's
• 19:46
  there, but we're just… We haven't even scratched the bottom of the ocean,
• 19:50
  not even the surface, the bottom of the ocean, and we're ready to go in
• 19:54
  blind and just destroy what's there.
• 19:58
  And you know, again, this is not something against Gerard Barron.
• 20:00
  He is doing what a business person does.
• 20:03
  Unfortunately, this is what business people do.
• 20:05
  They see what they can get, they can make a lot of money on it.
• 20:08
  And when people bring up things like, "Hey, you could damage the environment.
• 20:12
  We have no idea what the damage you can do to the environment."
• 20:15
  And they'd just be like, "Well, actually, we're not doing any damage."
• 20:17
  It's not as bad, which we don't know it's not as bad, as doing it on a rainforest,
• 20:21
  'cause we can see the rainforest.
• 20:22
  We can see the damage we're doing to the rainforest, we can see the damage and the
• 20:25
  human rights offenses that are happening.
• 20:27
  Like, we can see that.
• 20:28
  Those are bad.
• 20:28
  Those shouldn't happen.
• 20:30
  But it doesn't mean that we have to go with the place that is less bad,
• 20:33
  even though it could still be bad.
• 20:34
  He never said it would be bad, he just said it wouldn't
• 20:37
  be as bad as doing it on land.
• 20:39
  So why are we doing it anyway?
• 20:41
  And it's gonna be really interesting because in my interview on Friday with
• 20:45
  Matthew Gianni, he talks about some of the conclusions of the International
• 20:48
  Seabed Authority, which TMC is not even a part of anymore because they're
• 20:52
  going with the Trump administration.
• 20:53
  They want to mine.
• 20:55
  They want to deep sea mine.
• 20:56
  That's their goal.
• 20:57
  They have investors.
• 20:58
  They wanna go do this thing.
• 21:00
  Whether they can do it sustainably is gonna be another thing.
• 21:03
  At the beginning of the episode, I talked about how they really pushed for
• 21:06
  a two-year ramp-up to deep sea mine.
• 21:08
  It never went through, but I'll tell you what did.
• 21:11
  The stock price went up.
• 21:13
  It went through the roof, and then it's slowly been going down.
• 21:16
  And so Barron has been losing money because of the stock
• 21:18
  price, and he hasn't sold yet.
• 21:20
  Now, we're ramping up very quickly again with the Trump administration
• 21:24
  and issuing leases or will be issuing leases in the next coming weeks.
• 21:29
  That's gonna bring up the stock again, and whether it's actually gonna be economic
• 21:33
  or not, Barron's gonna make money.
• 21:35
  He may or may not stay with the company after he makes this money, I don't know.
• 21:38
  That'll be interesting to see and to see if this actually will go through.
• 21:42
  Stay tuned for that episode in a couple days where I talk to Matthew
• 21:45
  Gianni, who is the co-founder and the political and policy advisor for
• 21:49
  the Deep Sea Conservation Coalition, which I covered his story on Monday.
• 21:53
  And tomorrow, stay tuned because we're gonna be talking about some of Barron's
• 21:57
  indications or allegations that the deep sea is just a desert, and there's really
• 22:03
  nothing to worry about in terms of damage.
• 22:05
  So we're gonna talk about that tomorrow, whether it's true or not.
• 22:07
  Follow if you want it, if you don't wanna miss tomorrow's episode or
• 22:10
  come back, whatever you want.
• 22:12
  Trying something new.
• 22:13
  I'd love to hear your thoughts.
• 22:14
  Hit me up in the socials in the show notes.
• 22:16
  But other than that, I wanna thank you so much for joining me on today's episode
• 22:19
  of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.
• 22:20
  Have a great day.
• 22:21
  We'll talk to you next time, and happy conservation.