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Pastors' Perspective-10/21/26 · Pastors Perspective

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  Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to Pastor's Perspective. It's Wednesday, and we
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  Speaker 1: are here live in the studio, ready to answer the
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  Speaker 1: questions that you have about God's word, the Christian faith,
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  Speaker 1: just about anything that's on your mind, grab an open line,
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  Speaker 1: give us a call. Gonna be here till 4 at 888-564-6173.
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  Speaker 1: If you're watching online, thanks so much for watching. You
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  Speaker 1: can call in to the number's right there on the
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  Speaker 1: bottom of your screen. We're on Facebook.
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  Speaker 1: Facebook, YouTube, and Instagram right now. We've also got a
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  Speaker 1: QR code there on the bottom of your screen. If
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  Speaker 1: you scan that code, it'll take you to the pastor's
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  Speaker 1: perspective page at Kwave.com, where you can submit a question
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  Speaker 1: using that form there. You can also submit questions on
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  Speaker 1: the pastor's perspective Instagram by DMing us, or on the
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  Speaker 1: Pastor's perspective Facebook page by using Messenger, but we love
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  Speaker 1: to hear the sound of your voice. Give us a
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  Speaker 1: call at 888-5.
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  Speaker 1: 646173. Answering your questions today, we've got Brian Broderson, the
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  Speaker 1: pastor emeritus of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, and Dave Keene,
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  Speaker 1: a professor at the Talbot School of Theology at Viola
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  Speaker 1: University and also a teaching pastor at the Fields Church.
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  Speaker 1: I got it right for once in
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  Speaker 2: Oceanside Carlsbad.
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  Speaker 1: That's OK.
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  Speaker 2: I got your back. Yeah, it's so good to be
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  Speaker 2: with you guys again.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, so what's
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  Speaker 1: new with you guys? It's been a while.
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  Speaker 1: It's been a while. I haven't seen you in the
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  Speaker 1: studio in I know it's been ages. I was here
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  Speaker 1: yesterday and you were not. Um, yeah, so I got
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  Speaker 1: home on Friday from, you know, literally months and months of,
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  Speaker 1: of being gone, and, uh, yeah, so it's good to
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  Speaker 1: be back in the studio. Cheryl and I are, well,
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  Speaker 1: I've been sick since I got home, so I'm kind
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  Speaker 1: of just.
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  Speaker 1: You know, bossing her around, telling her, make me food
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  Speaker 1: and you know, pack those boxes. How is that different
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  Speaker 1: from a regular day? No, I'm joking. Well, she bosses
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  Speaker 1: me around on a regular, that's true. That's true. No, um, yeah, I,
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  Speaker 1: you know, we're in the process of, uh, putting our
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  Speaker 1: house up for sale and looking to move to, um,
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  Speaker 1: South Carolina. So yeah, so we've been there, you know,
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  Speaker 1: for quite some time, and, um.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, kind of, you know, finally got everything done, you know,
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  Speaker 1: of course I was in Connecticut for those months and
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  Speaker 1: then I was in South Carolina, so we made, we,
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  Speaker 1: you know, we made the move with, with our daughters, uh,
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  Speaker 1: from Connecticut down to South Carolina, and they're kind of
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  Speaker 1: settled now, even though my daughter called me a few
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  Speaker 1: minutes ago saying, Dad, where's the shovel?
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  Speaker 1: I said, I don't know, maybe the construction guy took it.
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  Speaker 1: She texted me back 10 minutes later. Kelsey, who's my
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  Speaker 1: other daughter, she goes, Oh, Kelsey had the shovel. This
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  Speaker 1: is a strange conversation. Two daughters asking about, asking about
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  Speaker 1: the shovel, and one has the shovel. Yeah, so anyway, uh,
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  Speaker 1: we're here and, um, it's good to be back. It's
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  Speaker 1: good to be in the studio and not in some
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  Speaker 1: strange room somewhere where people ask all kinds of strange
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  Speaker 1: questions about the decor. Yes, yes.
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  Speaker 1: So there were many questions about that, but yes, good
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  Speaker 1: to have you here, and uh, I heard you mention
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  Speaker 1: something about you don't like the, the background, you know,
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  Speaker 1: I mean, but we've had that for years, you know that,
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  Speaker 1: I know, but, but you know, it's time for an
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  Speaker 1: upgrade doing it on the doing the Zoom thing, of
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  Speaker 1: course I see, yeah, I never think about it here,
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  Speaker 1: but just as you guys are looking at my background
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  Speaker 1: when I'm on Zoom, so I'm looking at your background
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  Speaker 1: and I'm thinking.
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  Speaker 1: You get that crummy industrial building there with the, you know,
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  Speaker 1: all the um
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  Speaker 1: Air conditioners on top of it. Those telephone poles. So
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  Speaker 1: I'm taking up, uh, an offering to get you a
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  Speaker 1: good backdrop. Nice,
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  Speaker 2: a good green screen. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: a good green screen. That'd be awesome with, uh, I
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  Speaker 1: think penguins probably kind of an arctic. Yes, yeah, I'm
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  Speaker 1: an arctic. That would be the best. Yeah, that'd be
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  Speaker 1: the best. That's your thing. So yes, that is my thing, Dave.
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  Speaker 1: What's new with you?
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  Speaker 2: Uh, just enjoying the semester at Bible University. We're in
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  Speaker 2: the thick of the fall and
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  Speaker 2: Having fun and uh my son's foundation, God is continuing
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  Speaker 2: to bless and expand what, what we're able to do
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  Speaker 2: and coming alongside new young youth pastors. Um, it's just
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  Speaker 2: amazing to see God's goodness in all of that. So, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: we're having a great time. Uh, just spoke last week
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  Speaker 2: at a conference at Mariner's Church with the Download Youth
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  Speaker 2: Ministry folks. Had a chance to talk about grieving with hope.
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  Speaker 2: And so that was a
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  Speaker 2: It was a good experience just to be present and
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  Speaker 2: sharing about God's, God's hope in our lives when tragedy strikes. So, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: lots of opportunities to be sharing the story
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  Speaker 1: of Adam.
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  Speaker 1: All right guys, 888-564-6173 is the number to call. We're
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  Speaker 1: gonna start with a question that was submitted online. This
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  Speaker 1: one is from Rosalba in Irvine, who asks, I want
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  Speaker 1: to know about the Bible, what it says about forgiveness.
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  Speaker 1: God has placed it on my heart to call people
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  Speaker 1: from my past to ask for forgiveness. I've written messages,
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  Speaker 1: left voicemails, but they don't answer back. What would you
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  Speaker 1: guys recommend? Because I don't want to
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  Speaker 1: be like Sarah in the Bible glancing back into the past.
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  Speaker 1: How do I pray to move forward? Was it Sarah?
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  Speaker 1: That was Lot's wife, I think, yeah. Uh, but to
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  Speaker 1: also be kind and compassionate if I ever run to
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  Speaker 1: people from my past, because I know in the Bible
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  Speaker 1: it says to forgive 70 x 7. Brian, what would
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  Speaker 1: you say to Roselda? Well, we had, we had a
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  Speaker 1: question that I think was kind of similar to this yesterday, and, and,
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  Speaker 1: you know, the idea was, do I
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  Speaker 1: need to go, um, confess my sins to everybody that
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  Speaker 1: I've ever offended or sinned against. And, um, my answer
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  Speaker 1: yesterday was no. Um, many times that's not even a possibility. Uh,
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  Speaker 1: but if it, if it is possible and there is
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  Speaker 1: a sense that you ought to do it, then you
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  Speaker 1: probably should follow up on that. So, of course, the
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  Speaker 1: Bible does, as you mentioned, it does have a lot
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  Speaker 1: to say about forgiveness and
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  Speaker 1: Of course, the primary thing, the wonderful thing is that
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  Speaker 1: God has forgiven us. But then because God has forgiven us,
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  Speaker 1: he wants us to forgive others as well. So, you know,
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  Speaker 1: contacting people, um, writing letters, I, I don't think there's
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  Speaker 1: anything wrong with that. I think in some cases it
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  Speaker 1: could be very, um, helpful and healing. Um, do you
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  Speaker 1: have to do it? I don't think you have to
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  Speaker 1: do it, but if you feel compelled to do it,
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  Speaker 1: then
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  Speaker 1: I think it's fine. And, and yet I also wouldn't
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  Speaker 1: feel like, OK, I didn't get a response, so I
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  Speaker 1: need to write another letter or I need to leave
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  Speaker 1: another message. I think you, you did it, and then
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  Speaker 1: you just kind of leave that in God's hands. What
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  Speaker 1: do you think, Dave?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, scripture is clear that, you know, if
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  Speaker 2: we're in the midst of worship and God reminds us
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  Speaker 2: of an offense we have against someone that we know
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  Speaker 2: we're in the wrong to leave.
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  Speaker 2: Your moment of worship and to go seek to be reconciled. So,
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  Speaker 2: God does care about this, but he also doesn't make
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  Speaker 2: the outcome our responsibility, you know, Scripture in Romans 12
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  Speaker 2: talks about live at peace with each other as as
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  Speaker 2: far as possible with you. So there are times where
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  Speaker 2: you're going to seek out to be reconciled and the
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  Speaker 2: other person doesn't want it, and that, and then you're OK.
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  Speaker 2: You've been released from your obligation. So,
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  Speaker 2: Definitely, I think if God puts something upon your heart
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  Speaker 2: that you know has not been forgiven, has not been reconciled, um,
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  Speaker 2: you have some ownership in this to, to, to call
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  Speaker 2: and say I'm sorry. I think that's the, um, that's
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  Speaker 2: when you do this. You know, the idea of 70
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  Speaker 2: x 7 is really more the idea of like if
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  Speaker 2: someone keeps offending you, well, you keep saying I forgive
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  Speaker 2: you and seek to bring about reconciliation. But I do
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  Speaker 2: think God.
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  Speaker 2: Um, leaves the results with him and not upon us.
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  Speaker 1: Rosalba, thank you so much for sending in your question
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  Speaker 1: through the pastor's perspective page at Kwave.com. 888-564-6173 is our
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  Speaker 1: number and um let's go to the phones. Here is
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  Speaker 1: Rod and Menefee. Welcome to the show, Rod. Thanks for
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  Speaker 1: calling 888-564-6173.
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  Speaker 1: Oh hi, how are you doing? Doing well. How are you?
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  Speaker 1: OK, so I have a question. I'm, I'm doing well.
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  Speaker 1: I have a question. I listen to you guys every
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  Speaker 1: day even though it's pre-recorded, but I still go to
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  Speaker 1: work and I always listen. So is that a 3
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  Speaker 1: in the morning that you listen?
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  Speaker 1: Yes, I work. I build freeways, so I'm, I'm up
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  Speaker 1: on that time. Oh wow, you build the freeways, one
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  Speaker 1: of those guys that builds the freeways. Thank you.
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  Speaker 1: Are you the one that's gonna be building that stretch
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  Speaker 1: of PCH that's falling apart because that's like my favorite
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  Speaker 1: stretch of, of the beach there we just finished in, in, uh,
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  Speaker 1: in LA on Crenshaw. We've been doing a lot of
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  Speaker 1: construction right there and right now I'm coming down from
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  Speaker 1: the grapevine. Wow, on the grapevine because it's raining, yeah.
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  Speaker 1: So, anyway, my question that I have, so we used
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  Speaker 1: to go to a Catholic church, you know, but I
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  Speaker 1: like Christian church.
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  Speaker 1: And I just got baptized. I go to Cornerstone and Murrieta, and, uh,
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  Speaker 1: so I always do that, that, you know, like, uh,
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  Speaker 1: before I go to sleep, the sign of the cross,
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  Speaker 1: you know, and I know the Father, the sign of
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  Speaker 1: the Holy Spirit, and it, it makes me feel good,
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  Speaker 1: you know, or every time because I got used to that, like, uh,
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  Speaker 1: if I see a pass by the church, if I
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  Speaker 1: see the cross, then I would do the sign of
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  Speaker 1: the cross because I was taught to do that, and
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  Speaker 1: I was wondering as a, as a Christian.
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  Speaker 1: Do we still need to do that, or I mean,
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  Speaker 1: is it OK to do it? I, I, I, I
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  Speaker 1: don't know because I feel weird not doing. I mean, I, I,
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  Speaker 1: I don't know, not weird, but it just it feel like, uh, uh,
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  Speaker 1: you know, I mean, it's.
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  Speaker 1: So it's gonna be mad because I don't, I don't,
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  Speaker 1: I don't know and I'm just confused on that.
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  Speaker 1: So, uh, Rod, I grew up Catholic as well, and, um,
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  Speaker 1: went to Sunday school and things, and after we'd pray,
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  Speaker 1: we'd make the sign of the cross. So then starting
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  Speaker 1: in 5th grade, I went to a Christian school, and,
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  Speaker 1: you know, we'd start our day in prayer or whatever, and, uh,
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  Speaker 1: Uh, the first day of school after the prayer was done,
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  Speaker 1: I did the sign of the cross, but I noticed
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  Speaker 1: nobody around did it, and I just put my hand
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  Speaker 1: down like, we're not supposed to do that here. What's
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  Speaker 1: going on? It was just weird. But anyway, so Brian Broderson,
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  Speaker 1: what do you say to Rod? Well, Rod, I, I
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  Speaker 1: just want to say like I love.
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  Speaker 1: The tenderness of your heart toward, like you said, you know,
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  Speaker 1: you see a church or you see a cross, you know,
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  Speaker 1: you make the sign of the cross. I think that's,
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  Speaker 1: that's beautiful. And is there anything wrong with it? Absolutely not.
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  Speaker 1: But if you are in a place where you feel like, well,
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  Speaker 1: if I don't do it, that's gonna be bad or
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  Speaker 1: God's gonna be upset with me or I'm not gonna receive,
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  Speaker 1: you know, he's not gonna answer my prayer if I
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  Speaker 1: didn't do it, that's when it crosses over into kind
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  Speaker 1: of a legalistic thing that's not gonna be.
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  Speaker 1: Uh, it's just not going to be helpful and it's unnecessary. So,
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  Speaker 1: so I would say, uh, doing it is fine, as
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  Speaker 1: long as you're just doing it out of that, like
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  Speaker 1: you expressed, you know, that, that respect and that thankfulness,
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  Speaker 1: but just don't be feeling like, oh, no, I forgot
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  Speaker 1: to do the sign of the cross and I, I
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  Speaker 1: wonder if God's upset. That's where you cross over into
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  Speaker 1: an area that's no, you don't want to go there.
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  Speaker 1: Dave, so that, that's just, that's just for me, right? Yes,
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  Speaker 1: like when I'm by myself, you know, when
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  Speaker 1: I then,
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  Speaker 2: OK.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the practice that you're doing is to
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  Speaker 2: help your mind and your heart to focus more on
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  Speaker 2: the presence of God with you, and I think that's wonderful.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, that's what communion is whenever we participate in
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  Speaker 2: taking communion at church, it's remembering the, the grace and
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  Speaker 2: the love of Jesus, and we take this action to
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  Speaker 2: help our mind and our heart focus on what Christ
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  Speaker 2: has done for us. And so,
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  Speaker 2: The spiritual practices, they're, they're actions that help us remember,
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  Speaker 2: but they don't accomplish the work that Christ did. Christ's
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  Speaker 2: already accomplished that work on the cross, so we are
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  Speaker 2: simply remembering and honoring, um,
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  Speaker 2: God's presence in our life by these actions. So, do
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  Speaker 2: whatever practice is helping you focus on what God has
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  Speaker 2: for you.
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  Speaker 1: Well thank you very much. I appreciate that. All right, thanks, Rod.
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  Speaker 1: Thanks for calling. You know, I've, I've seen some people lately, um.
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  Speaker 1: In different church contexts who are just doing the sign
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  Speaker 1: of the cross and um I I think it was
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  Speaker 1: actually in South Carolina a couple of weeks ago I
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  Speaker 1: was at a church and you know I think people
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  Speaker 1: were walking up for communion and somebody was coming back
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  Speaker 1: and they just did it and I thought well you know.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, good, sweet. It's almost like we should have more
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  Speaker 1: of these. I think we think some of these things
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  Speaker 1: are so ritualistic or if we grew up Catholic, oh,
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  Speaker 1: it's part of my past, or I'm not supposed to
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  Speaker 1: do that anymore. But to, to think, I mean, like
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  Speaker 1: Rod said, whenever he drives by a church, he does
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  Speaker 1: the sign of the cross. What if we did something.
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  Speaker 1: Every time we drove by a church and just not
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  Speaker 1: necessarily the sign of the cross, although maybe it could
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  Speaker 1: be that, but just, just praying for the church, praying for,
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  Speaker 1: I mean, you know,
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  Speaker 2: I
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  Speaker 2: work with college students at Bio University and there's a
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  Speaker 2: number of students as they have come back.
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  Speaker 2: To, to God, really appreciate more of a liturgical service.
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  Speaker 2: And I think, you know, in some of our
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  Speaker 2: More recent backgrounds we've seen, you know, the interdenominational, the
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  Speaker 2: non-denominational church, you know, kind of where we've gotten away
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  Speaker 2: from a high liturgy, where there's kneeling and other things
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  Speaker 2: we've done, and, and young people actually are appreciating the,
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  Speaker 2: the reverence of these practices, and it helps them connect
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  Speaker 2: in a spiritual way to God that, that sometimes maybe
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  Speaker 2: that more of a free open worship experience wouldn't help create.
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  Speaker 2: And so I definitely have seen students embrace different liturgical
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  Speaker 2: practices that um are rich in history but maybe not
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  Speaker 2: practiced so much more in in our local contemporary churches.
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  Speaker 2: So I think we just have to view any ritual
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  Speaker 2: as a means to express our dependency on God and
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  Speaker 2: not to find, like you said, a legalistic.
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  Speaker 2: Uh, connection like I, God will do this because I
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  Speaker 2: did this,
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  Speaker 1: yeah,
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  Speaker 1: yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, I, I've thought about this
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  Speaker 1: because I, of course, I've recognized a younger generation that does.
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  Speaker 1: Kind of long for more of an aesthetic, you know,
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  Speaker 1: more of an experience with a ritual or a liturgical
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  Speaker 1: kind of a thing. And I think, I, I think
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  Speaker 1: back to my own experience coming out of Catholicism and
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  Speaker 1: uh coming out of a very dead Catholicism. So, you know,
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  Speaker 1: where we, we did all of the, all the liturgical stuff,
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  Speaker 1: but it just meant absolutely nothing.
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  Speaker 1: So coming out of that and then coming into a
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  Speaker 1: place where the Bible was like, oh my gosh, the
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  Speaker 1: Bible tells us this and we just, you know, we
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  Speaker 1: had had all of these freedoms and we just sort
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  Speaker 1: of jettisoned everything that wasn't in the Bible. And um
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  Speaker 1: some years ago I was speaking for a friend uh
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  Speaker 1: who was a senior minister of an Anglican church in Sydney.
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  Speaker 1: And I, he asked me if I would share in the,
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  Speaker 1: the morning service with him that I would, you know,
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  Speaker 1: serve communion and all of that, you know, and I,
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  Speaker 1: I think I wore a little bit of a robe and,
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  Speaker 1: you know, that, and, but there was something, and of
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  Speaker 1: course we, we preached the gospel, we, you know, taught
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  Speaker 1: the word of God.
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  Speaker 1: There was something rich about it. And I remember thinking like,
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  Speaker 1: I think we maybe have robbed ourselves a bit by
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  Speaker 1: just chucking everything without any consideration. Oh, it's tradition, get
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  Speaker 1: rid of it, you know, I mean, that was kind
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  Speaker 1: of the big thing, you know, back in the 80s,
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  Speaker 1: you know, you want to make sure you were iconoclast,
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  Speaker 1: you know, we're breaking the tradition. So, but it, but
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  Speaker 1: a whole generation that kind of didn't grow up.
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  Speaker 1: In a church
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  Speaker 1: Uh, with that experience is now kind of being attracted
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  Speaker 1: to some of that, which is, which is fine. It's
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  Speaker 1: not bad. Should we put the little bins of holy
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  Speaker 1: water at the entrances to the churches now too?
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  Speaker 1: Than the Catholic Church did that. I remember the Catholic
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: Church did that. What was the significance of that? I
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: don't remember. I just remember walking by it every time
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: and every time you walk by it, you had to, yeah,
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, obviously there, there are those elements
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: that are superstitious, and there are those things. So you
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: have to be careful. And I think that is like, well, you're,
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: you know, you're coming in and you basically dip your hand.
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: In the water and then you do the sign of
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: the cross. So you're kind of putting, you're kind of
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: sanctifying yourself as you go in and then do the
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: same thing on the way out.
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: So, not that it did anything, but that's what it
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: was intended to do or supposed to do. Rod, thanks
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: for calling us today here on Pastor's Perspective at 888-564-6173.
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: Pastors Brian Broderson and Dave Keene are taking your calls
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: till 4, so call in. Here is Thomas in Dallas, Texas.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: He's watching us on YouTube. Hi there, Thomas, what's going on?
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: What's your question?
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: Uh, yeah, first of all, blessings be upon you all
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: in the most holy and the merciful name of Jesus Christ.
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: Uh, how are you, pastor?
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: Good, thank you.
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: Uh, yup. So my question will be about Mr. Judith Escort. Uh, so, uh,
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: I was watching a video on YouTube and I believe, uh,
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: I encountered a video where they were sort of
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: Telling us that Judas Iscariot, uh, was not a traitor
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: to Jesus Christ, uh, like he was one of the
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: closest apostle of Jesus, and then they referred for a book, uh,
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: named the Gospel of Judas, uh, in which, uh, Judas
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: helped Jesus Christ to sort of accomplish the goal, to
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: sort of leave the human body, uh, and go in
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: the heavens and afterwards.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: Uh, they were sort of telling us that Judas was
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: the most beloved, uh, apostle of Jesus Christ. So that
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: will be my question. OK. By the way, where are
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: you from? We love your accent.
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: Uh, Originally, uh, I'm from Pakistan. Pakistan, OK, yeah, you
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: don't sound like you're from Texas. I had a feeling
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: that that wasn't the case, but Dave, what do you
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: say to Thomas?
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so Tom, uh, so, Judas was one of the
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: key disciples. He was trusted. He was the treasure of
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: the disciples. Um, however, he, um, sometimes took from within
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: the money, um, to do his own thing. Judas actually
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: really was identified in a brand of religious zealots that
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: wanted to see the Romans kicked out. And so there's
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: some discussion.
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: That perhaps part of the reason why Judas betrayed Jesus and,
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: you know, brought the Romans to him is he was
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: trying to get Jesus to pick a fight. He wanted
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: Jesus to respond. He wanted Jesus to, to rise up
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: and kick out the Romans and bring the glory days
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: of Israel back. And, and we know that God's kingdom
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: was established, but it was started through a spiritual kingdom that,
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: you know, and, and so Judas really missed the point.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: He was very remorseful.
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: After the fact, but we do see in scripture that there's, um,
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: condemnation placed upon him. The, the Gospel of Judas that
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: we have floating around today, we look at as a
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: book that comes from the Gnostic perspective. Um, the early
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: church dealt with this book. This is not a newly
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: discovered book. This is a book that the early church
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: dealt with and rejected as authoritative. So we know that
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: Judas quickly.
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: Um, killed himself after, uh, the crucifixion of Jesus. And
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: so Judas wasn't the writer of this. It's someone wrote this,
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: they slapped Jesus' name on it to give it authority.
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: The already church dealt with it, they rejected it from
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: the beginning, and so we reject the writings and the
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: message of the Gospel of Judas. And, and unfortunately, Judas
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: played a role so much like Pharaoh in the Old
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: Testament that
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: God allowed his heart to be steered away from God,
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: and God allowed him to play this, this player of
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: betrayal and, and treason to bring Jesus to the point
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: of the crucifixion, and I think that's
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: It is appropriate to think of him as a traitor,
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: but we also have, you know,
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: Compassion for him, because we see his remorse after the fact,
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: you know, he recognized what he did was wrong, he
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: was trying to get Jesus to stand up and pick
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: a fight, and Jesus didn't, and he saw what he
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: had done to his friend, and so, you know, in
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: that sense, he really did betray his friend, um, and the,
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: and the purpose of what Jesus was all about.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: Anything to add, Brian? Well, I just read that, um,
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: the account in John's Gospel, uh, today, so it's kind
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: of fresh on my mind, and I think, um, you know,
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: obviously it's a big surprise to everybody that Judas is
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: the one who's betraying Jesus. Jesus says, uh, one of
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: you is gonna betray me and nobody knows, well, who
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: could it be? And then, um, you know, Jesus says,
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: the one to whom I dip the bread after I
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: Uh, or the one to who I give the bread
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: after I dip it, that, that'll be the person. And
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: so that was Judas, and it says very specifically, it says,
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: at that moment, Satan entered him.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: So he really made a, a covenant with the devil
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: to betray Jesus. So I know there's um.
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: You know, there, there are some that want to have a.
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: You know, kind of sympathy for Judas.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: And um I think that's maybe a little bit misguided, so, uh,
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: but I, I, you know, I have a friend who
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: I, I think he wrote a book on it actually about,
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: you know, whether Judas would be in heaven, and I,
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: I think he was wrong, but, but his premise was,
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: which I did agree with, he, he said if Judas repented.
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: Would God have forgiven him? And I said, well, of course,
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: I think, you know, why wouldn't he? I mean, he
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: forgives anybody who repents, but there's no indication in Scripture
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: that Judas repented. He, he thought that there was because
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: of the fact that Judas was remorseful and said, I
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: betrayed innocent blood and all of that. So, uh, that's
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: another story.
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: It also shows you the potential mercy of God, you know,
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: like we're not the judge. We don't know where Judas
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: ended up with his faith in Christ at that moment,
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: but
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: Um, he does, he is very conniving, you know, he's
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: looking for an opportunity. It tells us to, to hand
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: you this over. This is not a, a, you know,
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: a
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: flash thought. And, and even, you know, a little bit
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: further back in the story in John's Gospel, even where Jesus,
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: he speaks of the fact that I've chosen the 12,
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: and yet one of you is a devil. So Judas
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: was already on that course before we arrive at the,
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: the Last Supper.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: In the garden. When Jesus dipped his hand in the bowl,
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: and I mean that right there should have been the
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: clue to everyone else. It's him. Why wasn't there like
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: a mob or something? Get him or something. It was
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: just very like it just goes on to the next
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: verse like I mean it is, and it is kind of,
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: it's a little bit ambiguous because the other gospels, you know,
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: tell it just slightly different. So you do wonder, I mean,
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: if it was so clear, the, the communication.
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: Is between John and Peter and Jesus. So it doesn't
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: say that the whole apostolic group was involved in the conversation. Uh,
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: Jesus said someone's gonna betray me. John is leaning, uh,
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: kind of, he's close to Jesus, he's leaning on him.
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: Peter leans over to John and says,
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: Ask him who it is. And then Jesus, you know,
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: he asked Jesus. Jesus is the one to whom. So
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: I mean this could have been just known between those three,
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: but we don't know. It is, it is a little ambiguous,
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: I think. But even those three could have started, hey, hey,
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: he's gonna do something. Let's,
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: let's honestly don't think they expected any of them to,
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: to betray you to that level of turning it over
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: to the Romans.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: Thomas, thank you for your question today here on Pastor's Perspective,
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: 888-564-6173 is our number. Let's read one that was submitted online.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: By the way, we're gonna be in the studio till
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: 4 p.m. Pacific time, so keep on calling. Michael in
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: Redlands wants to know what the Bible says about using
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: IVF in vitro fertilization to conceive between a husband and wife.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: What would you say, Brian? I would say I wish
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: Scott Ray was here in the studio telling Doctor Scott, he's,
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: he's great at answering this question. Um, you know, there's
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: lots of different opinions about this, even among Christians, you know,
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: some Christians find it, it's OK. Other Christians are very
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: adamant that it, you know, it's not right. Um, I,
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: I really don't.
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: I don't necessarily, I, I, I have to say I
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: haven't thought long and hard about it to have a,
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: a conclusion on it. I know people that have done it.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: And have a child as a result of it and
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: are thankful for the child. Uh, and I know people
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: that have done it and had several attempts and they
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: never were able to produce a child. So, what do
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: you think, Dave?
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: Well, I think with all medical, uh, procedures, our, our
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: trust is in who God is as healer. And even
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: in the case of IVF that God is the giver
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: of life. How God chooses to work in some miraculous
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: way that Christ did, you know, by just touching someone
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: or spitting in the mud or if God chooses to
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: work through doctors of medicine, our faith is still in
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: it's God who's healing me through this process. So,
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: If someone is, is, you know, unable to bear children
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: in the way God created their bodies, but there's a
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: medical procedure that gives them greater opportunity, their faith isn't
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: in the IVF. Their faith is in God that could
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: be the gear of life and using these means. And
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: I think that's the perspective of faith that we, we
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: should approach this, so that it's not.
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: My faith in the medicine, my faith is truly in God,
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: who may or may not choose to give me a
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: child through this medical procedure. Because I know with, with
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: my family, when my wife was very sick, you know, yeah,
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: we were praying God heal, and God provided doctors who
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: came alongside and helped us make right decisions and medicine
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: that helped, and all of those, I say as a
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: gift from God, you know, it wasn't the medicine, it
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: was God who did the healing. He just happened to
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: choose to use doctors and
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: And medicine in that particular case that saved my wife's life,
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: you know, and so I think we have to look
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: at these things as simply gifts that our faith is
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: not in the gift, our faith is in the giver.
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's funny to think about it that way
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: because as Christians, we wouldn't put our faith in IVF.
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: But like non-Christians, in a sense, they are putting their
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: faith in IVF and if it works, they're like, wow,
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: that was great. Christians would say, wow, thank you, Lord.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: But yeah, it's it's
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: Different
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, I think the, um, you know, there's,
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: there is to some degree a moral dilemma, you know,
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: because of the process and because of the fertilization of
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: the eggs and you know the
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: The embryo embryo and all of that. So that, that's
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: where you get into the controversial stuff, but I do
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: think that Scott, um, Doctor Scott Ray, who's been on
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: the program many times with us, um, he probably has
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: a great, uh, maybe even a podcast on it because
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: he's got some really good
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: You know, he's a guy who's thought long and hard
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: about it, and I appreciate.
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: Um, his, his thoughts. I, I.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: I know he has a new book. Uh, his ethics
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: book has been updated, revised, expanded again. Uh, yeah, and I,
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: and I think it's coming out pretty soon. And the
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: reason this is on my mind is because I'm packing
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: all my books, and two times Cheryl asked me about
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: this book. Can we get rid of this book? And
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: Well, until Scott gets his new book out, I'm gonna
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: hang on to it.
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: Well, if you do want to get rid of the
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: old one, you can bring it here. I'm sure we
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: can put it in our library. You can read what
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: Scott said. Yes, Michael, thank you so much for sending
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: in your question through the pastor's perspective page at kwave.com.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: We're gonna take a quick break and then we'll be
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: back with more of your questions. We've got pastors Brian
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: Broderson and Dave.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: Keene here until 4 o'clock. 888-564-6173 is the number to call. 888-564-6173.
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: Jay and Tustin, you'll be up next when we come
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: back from the break on Pastor's Perspective, 888-564-6173.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: Are we back? Are we sure? Yes, we're back. All right,
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: this is Pastor's perspective. Brian Perez here at 888-564-6173. We're
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: here till 4, so call in, ask your questions. We've
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: got a couple of pastors in the studio, Brian Broderson,
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: the pastor emeritus of Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa, and uh
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: Dave Keene, one of the teaching pastors at the Fields
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: Church in Carlsbad. He's also a professor.
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: At the Talbot School of Theology at Viola University, but
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: we can't go any further until, and, and people have
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: gotten used to this. It's great, but Dave, go
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: ahead.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I just want to say a good shout out
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: to Ava and to Lily who are watching live in Atlanta, Georgia.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: They're my granddaughters, and they're staying up probably past bath
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: time just to be a part of this. We actually
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: just got back from spending a few weeks back there.
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: In Atlanta and uh Ava got sick and then quickly
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: gave the cold to me, but praise God we're all
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: better now and she's having a great day. She had
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: a red ribbon week, you know, of the anti-drug campaign
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: going on at school. So she was dressed up in
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: her eighties outfit today and so cute and
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: Uh, they're just such a joy. I have 3 granddaughters,
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: one that lives here in California, Kinsley, and it's just
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: a joy to watch young children that just have such
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: a love for family and for God. And so, Ava
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: and Lily, love you guys. Make sure you listen to
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: mom and dad to go to bed tonight.
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: We love that. All right, 888-564-6173 is our number. And
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: uh as promised, let's talk to Jay in Tustin. Hey, Jay,
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: what's going on?
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: Hey, hi, thank you for taking my call. Your screener
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: was good. You kind of helped me figure out and
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: put my question across. I was kind of stumbling there
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: a bit, but we only use the best screeners here
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: on pastor's perspective. Top of the line, top shelf screeners.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: Makes the show more interesting. That's for sure. So here's my,
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: I'm in a Bible study group, and we meet on Thursdays.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: We're meeting tomorrow, and we had a discussion about, um,
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: salvation and works.
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: And there was quite a, there's like 17 in the
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: group from 75 years old to about 25 years old,
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: and the question was, first question is, is if we're
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: saved by grace, do we go, do we, are we
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: part of, will we go through judgment day with.
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: You know, it's good thing about judgment Day are those
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: who are saved, do we go through judgment, Are we
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: outside of judgment Day?
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: What would you say, Dave?
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: You know, scripture is very clear that we have been
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: forgiven of our sins, that we are, are
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: You know, righteous, right before God simply because of the
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: work of Christ. So, when Christ looks at us, he
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: does not judge us for our sins. Those have been
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: taken care of. But the judgment that we as Christians do, um,
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: face is what we call the Bemay. Uh, 2 Corinthians
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: chapter 5 talks about this, that, um, it's a call
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: to live by faith and a call to seek to
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: make it our goal to please God, and it says
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: in verse 10.
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: Uh, says, for we must all appear before the judgment
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: seat of Christ that each may receive what is due
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: him for the things he's done in the body, whether
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: good or bad. And, and this, this is not the
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: great white throne of judgment that a non-Christian, a non-believer
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: will be judged for their sins. This is a different
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: judgment seat. We call it the bema seat, and notice
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: that we're judged for good or bad.
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: So we're rewarded for the activities and just like the
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: crowns that are talked about throughout scripture we receive those
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: and the bad here isn't translated evil. The actual Greek
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: word there is better translated worthless. So the question is,
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: what are we as Christians doing that it's not necessarily sin,
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: but it's not productive for God's kingdom work and God says,
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: I've given you resources, I've given you opportunity, and if
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: you're
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: Wasting those and there's worthlessness coming out of it, that's
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: what we'll be held accountable for. We'll be held accountable
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: for not doing right with what God has given us
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: and then that's, it's not a judgment to sin to
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: be punished in hell. It's a simply like, like this
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: is a moment that I could have had more to
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: offer to God in my crowns serving, giving back to him.
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: And he says, no, some of the things that you
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: did are, are worthless.
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: What passage was that again?
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: That's in 2 Corinthians chapter 5, verse 10 is what
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: I read.
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: All right, bye.
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's great. Um, I would just add, um, that
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: this is a great passage in, um, John 5:24. Jesus says, uh, whoever, um, believes, uh,
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: Whoever believes in me and the father who sent me,
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: it's kind of both the father and son there, um,
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: has passed.
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: From death to life and will not come into judgment.
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: So that's very clear there, you know, we, there is
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: no judgment that awaits us in the sense of this condemning.
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: Judgment like we see at the great white throne in Revelation. Jay,
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: what do you think?
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: Well
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: Yes, I, I want you to receive salvation, receive salvation,
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: but the big question with this discussion, how our discussion went,
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: so what is the purpose of judgment? The, is there
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: any consequences if I have.
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: Didn't I accepted Christ, but I
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: Don't try to, I, I, I don't see a change
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: in my life. I still have my same friends and
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: we drink and, and party and, uh, fornicate, and what's,
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: what's the consequences of not having.
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: Um, good, I, I don't know the word, but having
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: good works, because I mean, I went through, I asked
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: Chad GPT to go through the Gospel through Paul, all
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: the books that Paul wrote.
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: And ask him to talk anything about salvation and judge
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: by works, and I was surprised. There's like 15 or
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: 10 or 15 verses saying that every man must work
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: out their salvation with fear and trembling. You'll be judged
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: and rewarded according to your works.
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: On and on. And so, what, it, it makes it
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: quite clear that there'll be a different type of a
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: relationship we'll have with God. Not everyone will live in
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: exact presence, they'll be saved from hell, but you won't,
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: you'll have a different
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: Degree of
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: Closeness or relationship to God.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: And I think in Revelation, I wish I had my
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: notes here, but like John in Revelation talked about the
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: seven different churches and, and you had the people of Corinth,
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: they were really righteous, and then the other ones weren't
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: so right. They had different types of blessings. All were blessed,
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: but they were of different degrees.
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: Uh, can you make a state, that's, that's one of
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: the big questions that came up. Are there different rewards?
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: Does everyone just live in the presence of God forever?
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: So I'm next to, sitting next to the person that,
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: you know, stole my wife and had a baby during
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: I was married to her, and he's lived a horrible
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: life ever since, and that, you know, he's just a bum, and, uh, he,
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: but he said he accepted Jesus. Are they all, are
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: we all in the same place?
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: So
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: The short answer is none of us deserve salvation. None
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: of us are righteous. And so all of us receive
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: mercy and salvation and grace, um.
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: To be saved. And so the, the question I think
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: is twofold. When, when someone has saving faith, in other words,
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: they're not just saying, yeah, Jesus is my savior and
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna ask for forgiveness and do whatever I want
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: to do from now on, I don't think that's saving
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: faith because saving faith recognizes there's a God and I'm
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: not it. Saving faith says it's only by what Jesus
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: has done that I have forgiveness and therefore.
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: I need to surrender my life to live for him.
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: That's what you see as fruit of, of salvation. The
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: what we call in theological terms, we call that um
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: positional sanctification. Your position with Jesus has changed. You've gone
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: from someone who is lost who is found, someone who
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: was a sinner to someone who has been forgiven, and
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: that position is secure and forever. So, you know, once
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: you've made that confession of faith.
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: Then you are saved. But then scripture talks about, and
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: this is what you found from Chat GBT, there's progressive sanctification,
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: meaning I continue to grow closer in my journey with
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: Jesus to be more like Christ and more free from sin.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: And, and that's really what, what the walk of a
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: Christian should be is be seeking out to be more
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: like Christ. If someone is not seeking to be more
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: like Christ,
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't even doubt their salvation, you know, just because
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: someone says it doesn't mean it, you know, Jesus in
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: the sword on the Mount highlights very clearly, you know,
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: blessed are you hunger and thirst for righteousness freely safe.
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: That's one of the things I tell my students all
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: the time as they wrestle with, am I a Christian?
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: I say, well, do you hunger and thirst for the
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: things of God? If you don't have any hunger or
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: thirst for the things of God, you probably don't have
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: a salvation, um, in your heart because you are.
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: Confessing not a faith in Christ, there's faith confessing a
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: faith in a religious experience, and that doesn't save us.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: And so I think in your conversation, I, I would,
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: I'd be very careful to say it's by our works
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: that we identify, but there is evidence that should be
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: seen that we have been, um, forgiven, and that should
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: cause a change in our lives.
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think too, maybe, um, if we understood salvation
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: in a little bit of a fuller sense, you know,
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: because we do, we just say, yeah, I'm saved, which
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: means basically for a lot of people just means I'm
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: not going to hell, right? Um, but if you think
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: of the terms the Bible uses, you know, the Bible
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: uses salvation is kind of like a general term.
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: And then you have justification as as an aspect of salvation.
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: You're declared righteous. And then like you said, Dave, you
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: have uh sanctification is the process. But you also have
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: what's called regeneration. And regeneration is the thing that makes
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: you alive spiritually. So you do hunger and thirst for
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: righteousness and those things. So if you don't have that,
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: then the question is, and regenerated means to be made alive.
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: So if you, if you don't have any spiritual
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: Uh, indicators in your life, then it's, it's possible that
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: you're not spiritually alive and you're not a Christian in
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: the end.
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Jesus is very clear in Matthew chapter 7 that
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: not everybody who claims to be his follower is known
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: by Him, right? There's people that said, didn't we do
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: all these religious things? And he's like, away from me.
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: I never knew you. Like you never did the will
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: of my Father. And so there are gonna be people
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: who I think.
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: Hey, you know what, I went to a church or
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: I did religious stuff, and Jesus says, no, you're not
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: obeying the will of my Father. I don't know you.
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: And that really, I think, should be a wake-up call to, to,
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: to us to say, look, yes, we are saved by
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: grace through faith alone.
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: And that salvation cannot be taken away. However, what does
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: it mean to place yourself in that position of surrendering
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: to Jesus and saying, You are my only source of salvation.
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: I'm not trusting myself, I'm not trusting my works or
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: my religious actions. I am demonstrating I love you by
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: these actions, but that doesn't save.
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: Uh, Jay, thanks so much for calling in. Uh, before
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: I go to my next call though, uh, Pastor Brian,
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: there might be somebody watching or listening right now that
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: has heard this conversation and thought, hang on, wait a minute, what?
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: Maybe I haven't been doing this right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it, it's.
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: It's certainly possible that that is the case. And and
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: if that is who you are, then let's just, you know,
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: back up a little bit and just remember to, you know,
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: to believe in Jesus is also to receive Jesus, according
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: to scripture, you know, so believe is kind of, you know,
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: the word trust is a good way to understand what
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: what the Bible is talking about when it says believe.
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: But then the Bible also says as many as received him.
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: And so as you receive Jesus, that means you're receiving
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: him as the Lord of your life or as the
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: ruler of your life. You're receiving him as the one
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: who created you, the one who uh purchased you with
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: his blood, uh, the one who's drawn you to Himself
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: for the purpose of, um, making you his disciple, his follower.
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: So it's not a just get out of hell card,
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: you know, that so many people sort of think that
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: that is what it is. Like, I got saved and,
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: you know, now I'm not going to hell, but it,
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: it doesn't have any impact on my life. That's not
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: a real salvation. And unfortunately, there's, and there has been
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: for a long time, it's not new. Unfortunately, there's too
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: much of that that goes on. And so we just
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: have to be clear that um.
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: To be, you know, to be a Christian means you
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: are becoming a follower of Jesus, and Jesus Himself by
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: the Spirit is actually going to take up a residence
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: in your life, and he's gonna empower you to follow Him.
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: But you have to basically surrender to that. You have
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: to say, OK, uh, you know, I've been Lord of
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: my life. I've been running my life. I've been doing
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: my own thing.
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: And I'm turning my life over to you, Jesus. Jesus,
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: take the wheel.
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: That's, I love that. You can, uh, read about this
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: if you want to on our website kwave.com. There's a
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: section that we have called God's Plan. It's under the
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: faith tab, so check that out. You know, I was
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: talking to a young, uh, person the other day about this,
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: and I was just
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: You know, I just said, uh, because, you know, they,
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: they've made a, a good move toward the Lord, but it's,
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: right now, it's kind of based on, well, can I
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: do this? And what if I do that? And am
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: I gonna go to hell if I party with my friends,
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: you know, and all that. And I just said, listen,
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: that's not, it's not what it is. You know, it's
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: not about that. It's about, you're, you're not gonna do
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: these things because you're scared if you don't.
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: You're gonna do these things because you wanna express thanksgiving
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: to God for all He's done for you, you know,
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: it's a love relationship. So, you know, hopefully that penetrated
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: a bit. Yep, 888-564-6173. Sharon in Eastvale. How are you
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: today and how can we help you?
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: Hi, how are you, pastors? Um, yeah, I'm a little nervous.
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: It's my first time. Don't be nervous. You're amongst friends.
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: OK, um, yes, I had a question. I was, um,
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: just trying to figure out what's the best way to
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: ask it, and I'm so sorry to the gentleman that
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: takes the information. I think I apologize like 3 times
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: to him, so, um.
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: It's OK. It's his job. He's there to take.
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: OK, my question is about, um, uh, Paul's, uh, uh, book, uh,
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: 1 Corinthians 14. It's about, um, speaking in tongues. Uh, uh,
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: what is it for, um, let me see. Anyone who
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: speaks in tongues edifies himself, and he says here, but
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: the one who prophesies edifies the church. My question is, um,
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: I've been speaking in tongues for, oh, years now. And
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: when I initially started, I, I asked the Lord for
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: it and I was telling your, um, the gentleman who
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: was helping me figure out what I wanted to say.
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: It, it came upon me like, like water. It just
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: happened and I told him that I speak it now like,
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: I like my, like second language, but I say my
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: first language because it's like I can speak it at
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: any time and when I'm speaking it, it's like uh
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: It's like almost like I know what I'm saying in
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: my head, but I couldn't tell you what I'm saying,
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: but my gestures and when I'm speaking to the Lord,
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: I feel like I'm talking to him like I know
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: what I'm saying. But the thing is that when, when
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: I read here, Paul says is, but he'd rather us prophesy.
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: So my thing is that, do I ask the same
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: way I asked the Lord to speak in tongues and
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: it happened instantly, do I ask the Lord
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: The ability to prophesy as easy as I did to
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: speak in tongues and will it happen? Or can you
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: trade it in and say, hey, instead of this tongues gift,
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: can I have the prophecy gift instead? No, because it,
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: it works for me because I, I speak to the
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: Lord quite often and it's usually at night and my
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: relationship has grown so much with Him and we talk
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: all the time.
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so Sharon, I think, um, so at the end
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: of chapter 14, Paul actually says we should be eager
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: to prophesy because the gift of prophecy isn't for telling
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: the future. The gift of prophecy is speaking God's truth
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: over people that God would give you a word of
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: encouragement based on.
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: The truth of scripture that you would speak over people.
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: Old Testament prophets spoke the word of the Lord. We
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: in the New Testament, now that revelation has been finished
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: through the Holy Spirit, we are reminded by the Holy
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: Spirit of key passages, key truths of God to speak
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: as blessing over people. And so the reason it edifies
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: the church because you're doing it in public, um, your,
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: your prayer language that you're using in private, it sounds like.
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: Um, maybe done in worship as well when you're in
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: the church, but it, it seems to be more between
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: you and God. It's probably more in reference to what
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: happens in Romans chapter 8, where that when God, um,
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: when you don't quite know exactly what to express, God
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: knows your heart and God gives you the utterances to say.
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: And so in many ways,
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: It's between you and God, and that's why it's not wrong.
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: It's not bad. It just doesn't bless other people the
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: way that if you were impressed by God about a
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: passage to speak over someone and say, man, I just
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: want to encourage you with this passage that God has
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: for you, and you speak God's truth over them. Um,
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: I've know, I've had people speak prophecy and blessing over
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: me using God's word and, and insight that God has
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: given to them.
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: Um, what I might need to hear at that moment, it's, it's,
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: it really does build up the body, and that's why
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: Paul says this is something that's good for the church
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: and we should be eager. Paul also does note then
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: chapter 11 of 1 Corinthians, um.
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: Oh sorry, 12, um, in verse 11 or verse 12, that,
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: that God's the one that gives the gifts, and he
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: gives as he determines. And so we should be eager
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: to have that role, but God may or may not
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: choose to give you that, that opportunity.
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: What do you think, Sharon?
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: I love it. OK, thank you. I appreciate it. You're welcome.
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: Did you want to add anything, Brian?
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: Uh, no, OK, thank, thank you, Sharon, for calling in today. Thanks.
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: God bless you too. 888-564-6173 is the number to call, and, uh,
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: we've got a few minutes left on today's show. Robert
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: in Gardena watching us on YouTube. Hi there, Robert, what's
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: your question for us today?
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: Uh, yes. In, uh, book of Matthew chapter 18 verse 20, uh, God,
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: Jesus mentioning that where two or more gathered in my name,
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: I am there in the midst of them, and I,
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: I'm understanding it, but, but I, I, I want to know,
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: and I'm sure you guys can give me a better
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: understanding or a deeper understanding of what God is saying
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: to us.
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: It means Jesus is in this studio right now because
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: there's 3 of us. Is it that simple, Brian?
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: So
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: are you saying Jesus isn't with me when I'm by
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: myself in your car? No, no.
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: No joking. Well, Robert, I think, you know, I think
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: just in a general sense, that's why we need to carpool.
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: I think we can believe, um, that, you know, as
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: we gather together in, in Jesus' name that he is
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: in our midst, but this passage is very specific and
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: it's very specific about um.
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: You know, kind of dealing with, uh, issues within the church.
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: It's really interesting because this is, uh, you know, this
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: is a passage where Jesus kind of gives some description on, um,
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: the church. And I remember a pastor friend of mine
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: years ago, he was, he asked me where, you know,
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: where's that passage that says, uh, that he who refuses
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: to hear the church, let him, uh, be like, you know,
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: he's a tax collector.
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: And I said, it's Matthew 18. He goes, no, that's not, no,
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: Jesus didn't say that. That's Paul. And I said, well, actually, no,
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: it's Jesus. And the point was it's kind of rare
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: for Jesus to speak about the church. He doesn't speak
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: about it that much. He says upon this rock I
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: will build my church, but you know, so here's another
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: one of those places.
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: And what he's dealing with here is he's dealing with
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: Correcting, um, you know, problems within the church. So surely
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: be bound in heaven. Whatever you loose on earth will
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: be loosed in heaven. Again, I say that if two
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: by my Father, uh, it, it will be given them
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: by my Father in heaven. For where two or three
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: are gathered together in my name, there I am in
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: their midst. So he's basically speaking to those who are
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: going to be leading his church.
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: And he's giving them uh an authority and a reminder
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: that when they make decisions, you know, they're gonna have
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: to make decisions and some of them are gonna be
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: hard decisions, uh, like maybe removing people from fellowship and
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: things like that, that he's gonna be there, uh, in
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: the midst of them as they do that.
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think this directly relates to like you're saying,
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: they're the authority of the church for discipline, especially in
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: matters where there's been wrong. And, and so, you know,
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: I've heard this, this verse applied.
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: You know, in so many wrong ways because God is
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: with the individual, God's with you wherever you go, but
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: his authority to make choices and decisions as a church
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: is when there's, there's a few gathered together versus just
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: one person who has the authority to do something on
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: their own, um, in a church setting, I think is dangerous.
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: And so I do think you see, um, this is
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: more about the authority of, you know, giving forgiveness and, and, uh.
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: And kind of dishing out discipline.
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: What do you think, Robert?
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: Uh, yeah, that clears it up. I understand it now. Yeah, that's,
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: that's similar to what my pastor said on Sunday. I
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: just like, I didn't catch it all. I, I, I
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: guess I wasn't paying attention like I should have been, but, um,
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: but yeah, that's what I also read online and I
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: just wanted it to, I wanted to confirm it with
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: you pastors because I, I know I would get a, a, a,
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: a near perfect answer from you guys, so.
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: Yes, I get it now. Thank you very much. Good. Thanks, thanks, Robert. And,
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: and it's understandable because you hear, you hear these words
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: like Dave said. I mean, most often you hear them
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: out of context. So you just assume that, well, it
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: means this or it means that or it applies to this,
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: and then you read the passage, you're like, oh, wait
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: a second, it's a very specific thing going on here
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: that Jesus is talking about.
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: Has somebody written a book? If not, you guys should
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: do it, maybe co-author a book, but I'm sure I
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: have been packing thousands of books, so people have written
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: a book on everything. Let me tell you. Yes, yes.
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: So you might even have this book in one of
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: your boxes, but just a book about all the verses
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: that people take out of context and what they really
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: mean because there's so many. I mean, that book would
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: probably be at least as thick as the Bible itself,
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: but
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: Uh, I'm sure somebody has tackled that. Um, I know
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: there's a little pamphlet that was written years ago by
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: HA Ironside called Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth, but
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: he's looking more at like a hyperdispensationalism, you know, so
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: he's kind of looking more at a bigger picture theologically
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: than just scripture verses, but
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: Yes, um.
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, OK. All right.
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: All right, that's all the time we have on today's
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: episode of Pastor's Perspective. Robert, thank you for calling in.
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: Pastor Brian, good to see you in the studio. Uh,
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: Dave Keene, good to see you here too. And uh,
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: we've got a little bit of time left. Tell people
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: about the Adam Keene Foundation. What it is. You can
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: go to Adam Keene Foundation.com. Con, uh, Keene is spelled
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: K E H N, and we're a foundation continuing the
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: legacy of my son who was a youth pastor who
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: passed away four years ago, unfortunately, due to a brain aneurysm.
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: And we're trying to come alongside brand new youth pastors
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: to help them thrive in the game of ministry, because
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: ministry is not easy, especially when you're just starting out.
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: So again, go to Adam Keen Foundation. Keene is K
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: E E H N Adam Keen Foundation.com. Maybe you want
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: to get into youth ministry, or maybe you go to
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: a church where you've got a brand new youth minister
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: and
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: He or she is kind of like, what do I do?
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: I'm kind of, yeah, free
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: coaching for anybody who applies. That's
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: awesome. Adam Keene Foundation.com. God bless you guys. We'll talk
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: to you next time here on Pastor's Perspective.