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The Bad Podcast Ideas That Refuse to Die · Your Mic

• 0:00
  An alphabetical order if you will your hot take. We're just gonna choose violence from the start
• 0:05
  This is kind of like and I don't think so honey, you know on on lost cultureistas
• 0:10
  I'm kind of saying like here's what I don't want anymore when it comes to podcasting
• 0:14
  I'm gonna start with a violent one that Lauren. I know will agree with and it's not violent
• 0:20
  Okay, I'll just go stop with the caveats. Stop making air horn sounds with your mouth
• 0:26
  come on
• 0:28
  Yeah, pisses me off and this is such small stakes, but I really believe it
• 0:35
  Stop doing it stop doing it. It's really personal. I just hate it. Zero particular genre of
• 0:40
  Podcasting that is most guilty comedy comedy comedy comedy really? Yeah, they love my laptop. Yes and this. Please
• 0:48
  I think it to me it signals
• 0:51
  that the guest, and this isn't always true, but that the guest maybe doesn't have confidence and that they are uncomfortable to not, they don't have the confidence, they're like, I've got to, I don't know what to say, I haven't been there before.
• 1:04
  Yeah, like, I'm going to, I don't have words, I don't have the confidence to just be here with my presence.
• 1:11
  So I'm, yeah, of course you can. I think it means that often I think it just means that they don't listen to other podcasts because, and this is, this is also a hot take is stop starting podcasts without being a fan of the medium.
• 1:34
  Yeah, you can be a fan in a lot of different ways. You know, you don't have to be listening to five, 10 hours of podcasts every single day or even every single week, but you've got to have some reverence for the people that came before you in order to figure out what kind of vibe you want to go for yourself, learn the rules before you break them blah, blah, blah.
• 1:52
  And I think people are probably going to be like, what is this air horn thing? How does this tie in, but personally it pisses me off. And now I'm trying to figure out how to, how to make it, how to flow it into the rest of the narrative.
• 2:04
  Well, it's like you can do anything you want, but you're not, you're not going to be, if you want to be the best guest, you should listen.
• 2:10
  If you want to be the best guest, of course anyone can go on without being a podcast listener, the more you listen to podcasts, the better guest you'll be the more you listen to podcasts, the better creator you'll be the more you listen to podcasts, the better
• 2:21
  podcast, the marketer you will be all of the above.
• 2:24
  It also feels like you say that comedy is most guilty of this heinous crime against podcast listeners.
• 2:31
  I feel like if you're having to make a noise like that, that maybe you're not funny, but that's just, but that's just me.
• 2:41
  Look, I will say that there's so many people that are way more funnier than I am. So I hate even saying that I hate, I hate choosing violence against comedians because I know I'm not funny all the time.
• 2:49
  No, I think you're right. But the thing is though, sorry, also Ariel and I interrupt each other. It means we're excited.
• 2:56
  It's a beautiful thing. It's a beautiful thing. Um, I, Ariel, you know, I'm talking about I feel like we have. Yeah, of course there's funny people that do it though. And I'm thinking of one in particular.
• 3:06
  I'm not going to say you a comedian that we both really like that does it and we want to shake this person and please say, please stop if you're listening and you're very fun.
• 3:14
  And I bet people find it funny. I don't know. Somebody out there probably finds it funny. Shout out in the comments. Oh my gosh. I don't either.
• 3:22
  But you asked us here for our hot takes and not everybody has to agree has to agree with us on this. But so the airport might not be a crime against humanity.
• 3:31
  It's a crime against my humans. Me too. I want to know we should do a poll Ariel. We should do poll. I hate it. I hate it. I think about it a lot.
• 3:41
  Because I hear it a lot. It hurts at this point. Yeah. What about your hot take Lauren? I think in like maybe not a year, but in a short amount of time, we will be laughing about podcasts on Netflix.
• 3:56
  Because it will not have worked. We'll be like, remember when that happened. So hard.
• 4:01
  Remember when they tried to come back from like a downturn in I think I just I just saw I think it was their fourth year in a row that they reported lower earnings.
• 4:12
  And I just thought to myself, what are you supposed to do as a company if you are not growing? Does that automatically mean that you got to shut down everything or change the model completely?
• 4:23
  Like why does every single this is so like anti capitalism, but why does every single company have to constantly make the line go up? Can't there be a world where just like nurturing the customers that you do have is okay.
• 4:35
  And obviously this goes back to the podcast thing because, okay, let's announce podcasts because that allows us to have all of these pretty cheaply made non-union talk shows that people might be interested in. But I don't know, it's on calm podcast. I don't know. Anyway.
• 4:49
  So you don't agree with me. No, no, no, I do. No, I'm joking. I'm joking. No, absolutely. And also like from a creator standpoint, the people that are going to do it, like everyone can make their own decisions.
• 4:59
  But kind of what you're saying, Ariel, like what's wrong with having the confidence in your own show and your own audience and continuing to make something great on your own control, right?
• 5:09
  Because these people aren't allowed to be on YouTube right if they're on Netflix. So it's like it's usually the deal with Netflix. Yeah.
• 5:15
  So they're kind of giving so much up to Netflix and good luck. Hope it works.
• 5:20
  For the headlines. Hope it works because I would prefer because now you're making something it's like you're making a Netflix show but worse.
• 5:31
  And let's just have the confidence in your show and your strategy and your plan and your audience.
• 5:39
  But who are you speaking to here? Because so it's not like indie creators are having this opportunity. It's like the ringer. You know, it's like the slate of shows from these big production companies that maybe they're getting looped into this and they're excited by it because of the initial press hit that they get.
• 5:57
  You know, oh, that's so exciting. Let's see how it shakes out. I agree with you. I mean that I think we're going to be laughing.
• 6:03
  I think we're going to be laughing. I feel like the people I haven't I should look at.
• 6:07
  I haven't seen a list of all the ones that are going to be at Netflix. I would like that's an exercise I'd like to do. They're there already. It's crazy.
• 6:13
  Yeah. But like that are there. Yeah. When you try on Netflix now, it's terrifying because when I first saw it, I was like, wait, I thought this was going to be something that was happening in our dystopian future.
• 6:22
  But it's now. But a couple of them were ones that I was like, what? Like I've never been like some of them are big shows, but some of them are like, what is that?
• 6:32
  Like so there might be some people that maybe weren't as big, but saw this as a big like they don't know enough about podcasting to know that it's I think that it's just going to remember how here's what I think will happen.
• 6:45
  I'm allowed to save space. We're laughing about luminary, right? Like I sometimes I giggle myself to sleep remembering luminary.
• 6:54
  I feel like the bunny tweet. Do you remember the bunny tweet? Oh my god. All the social media.
• 6:59
  If we can find that Freddie, we'll share that so you can link to it in the show notes because man, it was good.
• 7:05
  When you need a little giggle, just remember luminary, the hubris and out of touch and this.
• 7:13
  And I think can you explain it just in case.
• 7:17
  Yeah, please. I have no idea what you talk about.
• 7:20
  Sorry.
• 7:22
  I mean, luminary.
• 7:25
  Swooped up a bunch of podcasters and completely pay walled it and charge for subscription service.
• 7:32
  So basically they were paying their creators a lot of money, a ton of money to give them zero listeners because no one was on luminary.
• 7:41
  You had to download an app and this was in 2018 before subscriptions were a thing.
• 7:47
  Subscriptions only really became a thing in 2021 and even still people are very averse to them.
• 7:52
  This was in 2018 and they launched onto the scene with this.
• 7:55
  It's so much money.
• 7:57
  Remember that tweet format a while ago that was like the ASCII, you know, like text that.
• 8:05
  So it would be like a bunny holding up a sign and the sign said like who need podcasts.
• 8:11
  It was like I forget exactly what it was, but it was like you should podcasts aren't free or something like the gist of it was like podcasts aren't always free or pay for these exclusive podcasts or something like that.
• 8:24
  And people did not and a lot of the shows within luminary either it was either.
• 8:29
  It was some shows that existed and they went, you know, under the luminary banner and then it was a lot of net new shows that they paid these creators like Lauren said a ton of money to develop under this banner and they some of them were were good and eventually when they were released into the RSS wild they found audiences thank God of their own but yeah they were definitely.
• 8:52
  They were definitely hampered by by this you know exclusivity.
• 8:57
  I remember thinking when someone's luminary my oh, go ahead.
• 9:00
  No, you go ahead.
• 9:01
  No, no, you go.
• 9:03
  No, I was only going to say thank you for bringing up the timeline because in 2018 I was still in my previous radio world so I had no idea.
• 9:12
  And of course I would have probably been like yeah, well, it should be free for everybody because you know it's dumb world right and they were and they continue to be thank God.
• 9:21
  Yeah, but it sounds to me like it was a messaging error on their part because they were too early.
• 9:29
  Also it was a little bit of a stop I think the reason in my memory.
• 9:34
  It was like watching a car crash.
• 9:38
  Because the way that they their messaging was off as Ariel just pointed out in that tweet like they had billboards all over New York City like they did tons of money.
• 9:48
  I did not look there at the time.
• 9:50
  Yeah, they had tons of money.
• 9:52
  They had I was just talking to somebody who said that they would get a daily press release of every single episode they put out so they were paying someone to do that which is a waste of money like wow.
• 10:05
  So it was partially that they had so much money and that they were so out of touch and this was when.
• 10:11
  I guess even someone knew there was still this like.
• 10:14
  There it was still a kind of small place a small special place you know like the timing with everything was wrong but and so I feel like something someone might happen like where you know and I remember thinking of the time if somebody went to
• 10:28
  that in that case we have a lot of money to pay for the money and that's where they were going to be.
• 10:34
  So they were going to be like okay, so you want money but you don't want listeners.
• 10:42
  And I feel I'm seeing some parallels here with the Netflix thing because it's like you want money right now and you're going to hope that pays off in the long run.
• 10:49
  But if it doesn't, where did your listeners go.
• 10:52
  where they paid a lot of people to be exclusive to Spotify.
• 10:55
  Doesn't mean that the podcasts themselves were paid.
• 10:58
  You were probably already paying for Spotify
• 11:00
  or you were okay with the ad-supported model
• 11:03
  of listening to podcasts and music on Spotify.
• 11:05
  And Spotify did not really do a great job
• 11:10
  in app sending their users to become podcast listeners
• 11:14
  beyond a few podcasts every once in a while.
• 11:18
  And this meant that a lot of the podcasters
• 11:21
  that were given these exclusive deals to be exclusive
• 11:24
  to Spotify didn't find it worth it after a while.
• 11:26
  And eventually when their contracts were up,
• 11:28
  they went back to being available everywhere
• 11:30
  for fitting this minimum guarantee dollar amount.
• 11:34
  And I know Freddie that you asked for hot takes
• 11:38
  and this is Lauren and I being invited onto a podcast together.
• 11:42
  I mean, we're sorry.
• 11:44
  This is why nothing to apologize for.
• 11:48
  But I'm wondering, it sort of begs the question.
• 11:51
  Is it just a matter of, at the end of the day,
• 11:53
  it's just a bunch of humans trying to figure out
• 11:55
  the next big thing and podcasting is,
• 11:58
  oh, well, we got to get on podcasting.
• 12:00
  Oh, well, I'm running this mega corporation called Spotify
• 12:03
  and oh, podcasting is the next big thing.
• 12:05
  So what do we do?
• 12:06
  Oh, well, that's a great idea.
• 12:07
  Lauren, why don't we go ahead and attract
• 12:08
  a whole bunch of podcasters and Ariel?
• 12:10
  Why don't you go ahead and do this?
• 12:11
  And oh, wait, let's forget about how the app actually operates
• 12:14
  and we're going to forget to promote shows in app
• 12:16
  like what you were saying.
• 12:17
  Not even shows.
• 12:18
  I think they forgot to, not even, not forgot.
• 12:20
  But I think they didn't do as much in-app trigger pushing
• 12:24
  people who use the app for music or who, you know,
• 12:26
  who are there to browse.
• 12:28
  Maybe it's a contextual thing where, you know,
• 12:30
  after you listen to these five songs,
• 12:32
  maybe you're in the mood to listen to something uplifting
• 12:35
  or something about grief or whatever.
• 12:38
  I think that there could have been a bunch of in-app.
• 12:41
  I don't even know the exact words
• 12:42
  because I'm not a mobile app developer.
• 12:44
  But they're needed to be a little bit more fostering
• 12:46
  of the podcast listening community,
• 12:49
  rather than just getting it.
• 12:51
  Basically, they did build it and they will come.
• 12:53
  They built it, the people were technically there,
• 12:56
  but they didn't move over to, I don't know, the house next door
• 12:59
  in order to listen to these podcasts.
• 13:01
  Well, there's also no one thinks,
• 13:03
  not all enough people think about growth in general.
• 13:06
  So it's another, like, that's audience problem out.
• 13:08
  Yeah.
• 13:09
  Yeah.
• 13:10
  What are your thoughts on a third of podcast
• 13:13
  consumers on Spotify now watching their podcasts?
• 13:17
  You know, there's the whole debate about audio versus video,
• 13:20
  audio on YouTube, video on YouTube,
• 13:23
  but Spotify is starting out as audio,
• 13:25
  but music only and then podcasting
• 13:27
  and a third of people now prefer watching it on Spotify.
• 13:30
  I thought was really kind of surprising.
• 13:32
  My hot take or what did you ask for?
• 13:34
  Yeah, what are your thoughts?
• 13:35
  What are your thoughts?
• 13:36
  Well, I have a hot take.
• 13:37
  I have a hot take, which is that out of that one.
• 13:39
  What did you say a third?
• 13:41
  Yeah, it's like 28%.
• 13:42
  OK, out of that 28%,
• 13:45
  I would bet you that more than 50%
• 13:49
  turn the video on 50% of the 28%.
• 13:54
  So if we knew the actual numbers,
• 13:55
  we could probably come to something here, but I don't know.
• 13:57
  I think a good chunk of the people who are,
• 14:00
  who are, you know, discovering
• 14:02
  or or consuming podcasts by way of video
• 14:05
  on Spotify or hitting play,
• 14:07
  they're watching it for a few seconds
• 14:09
  and then they're going about their day
• 14:12
  and they're glancing every once in a while.
• 14:14
  It's just fine.
• 14:15
  It's just like YouTube.
• 14:16
  I am fine with people discovering podcasts.
• 14:19
  However, whether it's video, whether it's clips,
• 14:22
  whether it's a social post,
• 14:23
  whether it's word of mouth, whatever.
• 14:24
  I'm also fine with people consuming it
• 14:26
  wherever they consume it.
• 14:28
  I'm just a little bit tired of and here's another hot take.
• 14:31
  Please.
• 14:32
  The word video, just meaning
• 14:35
  that you need to shirk all of the beauty
• 14:39
  and the possibility of audio only or audio first
• 14:42
  or audio focused because I still need to forget
• 14:45
  that there's listeners there.
• 14:46
  Yes, because now I'm getting, I'm hearing podcasts
• 14:49
  where I'm like, oh, clearly people,
• 14:51
  I'm supposed to be watching because they're talking
• 14:52
  to somebody who's watching.
• 14:53
  Sorry, dinner.
• 14:54
  They're not referring to, you know,
• 14:57
  if they're talking about something visual,
• 14:58
  they're not nodding to the people who are listening.
• 15:01
  Amy Poler has done a good job changing this
• 15:04
  when she started her podcast almost 10 months ago or so.
• 15:08
  It was a video, it is a video podcast.
• 15:10
  It's a video show that distributes also an audio feed
• 15:13
  and she was at first referring to things visually
• 15:16
  that I didn't understand because I was listening
• 15:19
  and you know, I could figure it out
• 15:21
  and it's not the end of the world
• 15:22
  and I wasn't alienated but I've realized over time
• 15:25
  that she has started to explain things.
• 15:28
  Oh, for the folks who are listening,
• 15:29
  here's what's actually happening in the video
• 15:31
  that we're referring to.
• 15:32
  And I think that with the Spotify question,
• 15:36
  I am fine, 28% whatever it is, watch your podcasts.
• 15:40
  I'm not saying every once in a while
• 15:42
  if I, if I, if I'm watching something on Spotify
• 15:45
  or if I'm on Spotify, which I barely am
• 15:47
  because I'm using pocket casts,
• 15:49
  but if I'm on Spotify because someone has sent me a link
• 15:51
  to Spotify and I hit play and I hit play on the video
• 15:54
  because I'm curious about what it looks like.
• 15:56
  I am probably not going back to watch the video
• 16:00
  and that's not because the video is not great per se
• 16:03
  but it's because I just prefer to, you know,
• 16:06
  to listen and to listen only.
• 16:08
  And I'm not bitter against the idea
• 16:11
  that people discover via video
• 16:12
  because ultimately if it gets the word podcasts
• 16:15
  into more people's mouth, I'm of this belief
• 16:17
  that it'll eventually trickle down to people wanting
• 16:20
  to listen because they're eventually going to come
• 16:22
  to a time when they can't use their eyes,
• 16:24
  you know, maybe they're driving,
• 16:25
  maybe they're doing the dishes,
• 16:26
  maybe they're doing whatever, whatever it is.
• 16:29
  As James Kridland of PODNEW says,
• 16:31
  podcasts are something for your ears when your eyes are busy
• 16:34
  and I really believe that and I think
• 16:36
  that more and more people are going to come to understand that.
• 16:39
  Also, I think a lot of people will watch
• 16:41
  if they're on the subway and then they get off the subway.
• 16:44
  Like I think and they'll say, yeah, I'll watch.
• 16:47
  Like it doesn't mean that they're,
• 16:48
  they choose to all the time or I don't know, I also just don't.
• 16:51
  But I, it's this exact same thing with YouTube.
• 16:54
  A lot of those people turn it on and continue their lives.
• 16:57
  Yes.
• 16:58
  Yeah, I think, I think my, my, what's the word?
• 17:01
  My gripe, my, my hold up is with the, the desire for all
• 17:08
  of these big platforms to push video podcasting.
• 17:10
  It, it's great that video exists,
• 17:13
  but it's not the only way that people are,
• 17:16
  that people are engaging with the hosts that they love.
• 17:20
  It's also it's one of course, of course that number is going
• 17:23
  to come from Spotify or they're pushing for this.
• 17:25
  Yeah, they have to.
• 17:27
  It's all about people don't understand how to read data also.
• 17:30
  I see so many statistics, you know, published by different,
• 17:35
  either research organizations or even companies that clearly
• 17:39
  have an aim and they're putting out, they're doing a study.
• 17:42
  And if you look at the methodology behind the study,
• 17:44
  hopefully they're reporting on it accurately.
• 17:46
  Hopefully, I'm going to say that again, hopefully they're reporting
• 17:49
  on their numbers and their methodology accurately
• 17:52
  and presenting it in a way that I should be able to look at it
• 17:54
  and say, okay, what can I glean from this with a small sample size
• 17:57
  or with a sample size that skews European or whatever it is.
• 18:00
  But I think a lot of people just see the statistic
• 18:03
  that they're looking for and share it because it is exciting to share.
• 18:06
  And that right there, it feels like it was almost inherited
• 18:10
  from Rayilland in maybe even TV land because.
• 18:14
  Interesting.
• 18:15
  So like mild world, it was the arbitrawn diary method.
• 18:19
  And you could be in whatever town, whatever city.
• 18:22
  And this is back in the day where you have a diary method,
• 18:25
  like in a city of Houston where I'm at right now, back in the day.
• 18:29
  It's probably like four or five million now.
• 18:31
  It's upwards of I think like six or seven.
• 18:33
  But it'd be like a very small sample size of diaries meld out,
• 18:36
  one to Ariel, one to Lauren, and then you would each be responsible
• 18:40
  for filling out what time you got to listen to the radio
• 18:43
  and what specific show and what time and how long you listened.
• 18:49
  And that would be dependent like an entire think about Lauren.
• 18:53
  Should we do this entire radio stations.
• 18:58
  Complete strategy for a year would be dependent on the quarterly.
• 19:06
  Self reporting.
• 19:07
  Self reporting.
• 19:08
  That's nuts.
• 19:09
  We should do this.
• 19:11
  We should do this.
• 19:12
  We should make branded little notebooks that we send out to like specific random people.
• 19:16
  They might still do that in small towns too.
• 19:18
  For podcasts.
• 19:19
  No.
• 19:20
  No for radio.
• 19:21
  So it's like Nielsen, but Nielsen is not self reported, right?
• 19:25
  Or Nielsen is they call you up and they say like what have you watched and whatnot?
• 19:28
  Some like that.
• 19:29
  Yeah.
• 19:30
  And I could be mistaken there.
• 19:31
  It's possible that they're completely digital now.
• 19:33
  But back of the day, it was definitely written.
• 19:36
  That is so cool.
• 19:37
  That's hysterical.
• 19:38
  Yeah.
• 19:39
  Also, I'm getting an echo again.
• 19:40
  Me too.
• 19:41
  Anybody else?
• 19:42
  I was I was hearing it pretty bad.
• 19:44
  But I'll fix that in post.
• 19:45
  Okay.
• 19:46
  Just as long as.
• 19:47
  Yeah.
• 19:48
  It's probably not even getting picked up, but we all have headphones on.
• 19:52
  So that's weird.
• 19:53
  I just love the fact that you all are advocates for podcasting.
• 19:57
  And that's really how I discovered each of you on separate occasions is.
• 20:02
  And so I want to know what it is about podcasting that has attracted you to be such advocates
• 20:08
  for the medium and not let's say radio or TV or YouTube or something else.
• 20:15
  Lauren, would you like to do what we do best?
• 20:18
  Go for each other.
• 20:19
  Yes.
• 20:20
  Okay.
• 20:21
  Do you know my answer?
• 20:22
  Also, I.
• 20:23
  Why podcasts?
• 20:24
  Yeah.
• 20:25
  Is that the question?
• 20:26
  Okay.
• 20:27
  And also, I just like to say thank you for.
• 20:29
  I was starting to think I was starting to sound so negative.
• 20:32
  And.
• 20:33
  I'm glad that you're letting us talk about why we love it too.
• 20:36
  Yeah.
• 20:37
  But, um, I would, I think Ariel would have, would say that, um, she.
• 20:49
  Discover podcasts because she was stuck in LA traffic and kind of started listening to them and realized that they speak to her in a way that she didn't know she loved that she could learn.
• 21:01
  She could understand things through audio only in a way that she didn't even know.
• 21:06
  She could.
• 21:07
  So maybe she did in school wasn't taught to learn things with her ears.
• 21:14
  And I gave her a lack of confidence in what she was able to learn.
• 21:17
  So I think there's a lot of answers for Ariel about why she loves it.
• 21:19
  But that's like the in the door.
• 21:21
  What got her there.
• 21:22
  I think the thing maybe that keeps her there is the people.
• 21:25
  That's what I was saying.
• 21:26
  Did I answer that right today?
• 21:28
  You hit it.
• 21:29
  Good.
• 21:30
  Okay.
• 21:31
  Okay.
• 21:32
  I'm going to share a few ideas, Lauren, for why I think you love audio.
• 21:37
  First of all, you worked in book publishing.
• 21:41
  And you were a big listener at the time that you were working in book publishing.
• 21:47
  You weren't thinking about what about the podcast industry or the emerging podcast industry.
• 21:52
  You weren't thinking necessarily like, I want a job in this space, but naturally people started thinking of you for podcasts related work because you were such such an advocate, such a listener or somebody who just like word on their sleeve that that you loved this and you were always talking about it and always discovering new things.
• 22:12
  But to back up, how, how in the first place, I actually don't know the first podcast you listen to do I think it was.
• 22:25
  I do know that Lauren had a podcast early on in her podcast and career called podcast podcast where she spoke with a friend about podcast and then.
• 22:34
  That became podcast.
• 22:36
  Yeah.
• 22:37
  It was.
• 22:38
  It was too early for its time.
• 22:39
  The trailer part podcast.
• 22:40
  Yes.
• 22:41
  Almost.
• 22:42
  I just, I couldn't, I can't believe I forgot the name of this podcast, but the champs.
• 22:46
  I knew it would be something.
• 22:48
  With Neil.
• 22:49
  With Neil Brennan and Moshikasher, they used to have a podcast where they interviewed black musicians, comedians and athletes.
• 22:58
  And I mean, there weren't a lot of podcasts.
• 23:00
  So I list, I would go to maxfun.com or whatever and listen to whatever was there.
• 23:05
  I guess I, it's, I love stories and storytelling reading.
• 23:09
  And then I got injured and was on crutches.
• 23:12
  There you go.
• 23:13
  During the hip situation.
• 23:14
  Yeah.
• 23:15
  Or different.
• 23:16
  It might have been the time.
• 23:17
  It might have been a different time.
• 23:18
  But I was.
• 23:19
  I need to think so.
• 23:20
  Yeah.
• 23:26
  I think that's what I want to listen to.
• 23:29
  Lauren is one of the most aware of.
• 23:32
  Like you're like a general store of knowledge and that I feel like you really do know.
• 23:37
  More than a little, but about a lot.
• 23:39
  And every time Lauren tells me a story, I'm shocked that she has this like thing going on in her life that I'd never heard of before so much so that I.
• 23:46
  If you listen to podcasts, you probably heard of story worth.
• 23:49
  It's a, it's a product that you can eventually write a book based on stories that you write that you write from prompts that are sent to you.
• 24:00
  And they advertise on podcasts all over the place.
• 24:03
  The one that I heard it on most that eventually caused me to purchase this was who weekly, which is one of Lauren, one of our favorite podcasts, Lauren and I that we share.
• 24:12
  I was like, you know, Lauren, Lauren has so many stories I must they must be preserved in a way that's not just your brain because we need to have them forever.
• 24:22
  So that's why story worth has arrived in your inbox.
• 24:25
  And then I was listening to who weekly also and on their ad, I was informed that you could do audio recordings.
• 24:32
  So I'm actually doing audio instead of typing much easier.
• 24:36
  Every time I also says this, I must say it's because I'm old and I've been in these streets for a long time. That's what happened.
• 24:42
  But I mean, I've been I worked for print media magazines, a new local newspapers. I worked for a dating app. I worked in book publishing. I worked in blog like everything.
• 24:54
  Audio is the one where I found the best people. And that's why I'm here to stay.
• 24:58
  People are so whether whether we're all at Netflix, whatever happens in this crazy ride rod. I'm here.
• 25:05
  Yeah, what's what's something that you've been able to take from your previous world into the world of podcasting Lauren. I'm curious.
• 25:12
  Maybe that one thing I learned from working in book publishing was the power of being able to be a little fearless and fast because in book publishing, it was not like that.
• 25:28
  There's a lot of fear, very slow process. And a lot of media is like that. So I think I would go from media that was really slow.
• 25:36
  Like print like man, newspapers to then dating apps, which is really fast. So I think I learned about the benefits of being in an industry where you could quickly make changes.
• 25:46
  And there was things newly things that were newly adapted all the time. So I think that's one thing I really liked about it.
• 25:52
  So I want to go back to ads and you all talked about finding a product.
• 25:57
  Oh, wait, wait, wait. Can I answer it? Can I say one more thing?
• 26:00
  Because I'm not sure after I said I was like, I'm not sure if that's right. And I'll give you another one. And you can be like that one was better or worse.
• 26:05
  The thing that I learned though is that everything that happens has, it has all happened again and it will, or it has all happened before and it will happen again.
• 26:14
  Like everything in media, what's what we're having to see in podcasting, it's happened in the music industry.
• 26:21
  We see the stuff with books and technology. It's just, you could be really freaked out by something that's happening or you could see that it has happened and has recovered and gone up and down over and over and over again.
• 26:32
  Can I build on that? Yes, please.
• 26:34
  Because I want to get each of your opinions. I read something and pot news just this morning that there's now I think it's one ad for every two or three minutes of content and true crime podcasts.
• 26:47
  And I don't think they name names in this particular article. But to me, that's crazy.
• 26:53
  One ad for every two to three minutes. Yeah. And you know what? I'm going to, let me, but they don't, but they don't mean that on every show, right? That's an aggregate, the data on average.
• 27:04
  All right. Yeah. So like not on every show, just like, you know, like in my old world, we would play seven and a half minutes worth of commercials.
• 27:13
  Right. Twice an hour for 15 minutes in most hours of commercials. And to me, that's wild. And one of the things it seems to me that people love about podcasts is that there are few interruptions.
• 27:27
  But if you've got, if you're listening to your favorite true crime podcast and you've got an interruption every two to three minutes.
• 27:33
  And let's face it, a lot of these dynamically inserted ads are coming in at very awkward spaces. It ruins the flow.
• 27:41
  But aren't you, you're not getting interrupted every two to three minutes. You're just when you're interrupted, you're interrupted for long stretches of time.
• 27:48
  That I, that I don't remember from the article.
• 27:51
  Well, I don't think it's every two or three minutes, but it can't be. I mean, I listened to a lot of true crime podcasts. And that's not how it is.
• 27:59
  But I do get that it's annoying when the beginning of the episode starts and you have four or five minutes of ads, like you hear.
• 28:07
  You read on Reddit all the time, how annoying that is. And then the common responses, don't people know that there's a skip button. It is frustrating, but podcasts are not free to make this is a way for creators to get paid.
• 28:18
  I don't have to listen to the ads. I, I'm not saying I love that there's an increase in in ads all the time, but I will say I'm hearing from a lot of podcast networks that the ad rates that they're able to negotiate are lower and lower the advertising partners are fewer and farther between.
• 28:42
  They want to spend with the top shows, not so much with the mid the mid tier shows.
• 28:47
  So the the rakeeting lower and lower means it's broken. And I have been saying this forever. The CPM model is broke. The model we use for these advertisements is broken. We need something else.
• 28:57
  I don't know what that has yet. That's not my job. But because the other thing that annoys me is I for my job set up a promo socks with podcasts, which means I need inventory space on other shows so that I can.
• 29:10
  My client can do a promo read for their show. And there's some people I just can't work with because they're completely sold out on making not very much money.
• 29:20
  So in lieu of a great promo that could help both audiences grow and make the industry better and help listeners discover something they really like that they're getting the fourth ad in a row sometimes of something that actually makes them hate the ad more or makes me the product more and the host.
• 29:39
  And it's such a low. I mean, I could just it's low hanging for it to complain about this because it's like then you hear hosts that have to say, sorry, I heard that you all heard an ad for guns.
• 29:54
  I knew you were going to say that because I know exactly what you're talking about. Like they're slipping through the cracks. So anyway, we could. Yeah, it's easy. Everyone hates this. I'm complaining.
• 30:03
  I mean, this is not take anymore. This is just true. There's there's so many so many interesting.
• 30:10
  Different sides of the coin here. One is it's great for creators to get paid directly opposite is it's annoying when the way that creators get paid means so many ads that are potentially irrelevant or programmatically inserted that are the programmatically inserted at a volume that's way too high.
• 30:29
  You know, I like, you know, I like what blind boy cool zone media. What do they do, Ariel?
• 30:35
  Well, they they're hilarious. The way that they they neg their advertisers before they introduce them. They're basically like on behind the bastards, which is a show on cool zone media where they talk about some shitty person from history or a concept from history.
• 30:53
  And it'll be like talking about Mussolini and then it'll be like, you know, who else is a fascist?
• 31:00
  Something something something. And then and then the the guests will be like, is it our advertisers?
• 31:08
  And it's, you know, there was a while a few years ago when I first started listening to that show when I was like, I would love to do and Lauren, maybe we should do this for our newsletter.
• 31:17
  I would love to do a I would love to do an article and expose a conversation with the host of those shows plus the advertisers that they work with and whether they hate it or love it because there's two sides of this right one is it's authentic to the creator.
• 31:32
  The creator is saying, we know we have to run ads, but it's funny to make fun of them. And the advertisers saying, I wish you wouldn't shit on us, but also your if your listeners like the way that you make fun of us that they then are aware of our products and buy our products, who cares.
• 31:49
  So I don't I don't know. I don't know what the answer to this is. And I'm sure there's people on both sides of the argument, but let's do that article. Lauren and I just started a newsletter.
• 31:56
  Let's do it. We did.
• 31:57
  We just started one together like, oh, wow, like do tell hot off the press. What's it called?
• 32:03
  It's called text podcasts. We don't even know the name of it. It's so new. It's called podcasts. We text about because as you can see, we have a lot of shared thoughts.
• 32:13
  And the first thing I do when I wake up the morning is text area. The last thing I do before I go to bed is text area. I can text her.
• 32:20
  I don't have to give any context. She knows what I'm talking about. We text each other the same thing at the same time. And it's always about the industry or what we've been listening to.
• 32:29
  We're also real life friends. Really truly true podcast.
• 32:33
  Every once you have a podcast bestie like like you. I shout out to Courtney Kostak's newsletter called podcast bestie.
• 32:40
  I feel like we just can't say podcast bestie without saying podcast bestie dot sub stack dot com. But anyway, continue.
• 32:46
  Of course is a newsletter called podcast bestie. Of course.
• 32:50
  But we just wanted a place where we could talk about that stuff, but also there's not a lot of criticism in the industry and.
• 32:59
  We're not that we want to have. We're not critics at all. We're the optimists are.
• 33:05
  We are here. I mean, we're critics of the industry, I think, but we're not necessarily critics on a enough in an official capacity of like the shows that we listen to.
• 33:14
  We're actually behind the scenes. You do have some interesting criticism of the shows that we listen to.
• 33:20
  Whereas I feel like most of the time you're then like, what did you think about it? And I'm like, I don't know. I was entertained. I liked it.
• 33:25
  Would you say that it's more of like you're a critic of the industry itself, not so much the host?
• 33:30
  Yeah, I think that's right. Except for air horn people. Yeah, everyone.
• 33:35
  Fuck you guys.
• 33:37
  Yeah, but I think we for an industry to be healthy, there needs to be criticism.
• 33:41
  And I'm not we once again are not critics, but I think we're going to hopefully point out things that we just wish were different or that we noticed that.
• 33:49
  You know, like this behind the bastards thing that I don't think a lot of people pick up on or they do and it's passive.
• 33:55
  But what effect does that have on the ads and then do those advertisers come back and then is the business cool zone media behind behind the bastards is it solving because they're losing advertisers.
• 34:06
  So these are the kind of things that we want to talk about.
• 34:08
  Or do the advertisers not know this is happening and we just told them and we're going to ruin everything.
• 34:14
  We're going to be driven out.
• 34:17
  Sometimes people just need to know.
• 34:20
  I think it's really easy for all of us to get wrapped up in in our own bubbles and what we're doing on a day to day basis that sometimes we just don't know what we don't know.
• 34:28
  And so if there's if there's a newsletter with two pod besties like the two of you that are bringing it up, there's probably someone in an ivory tower somewhere that's like,
• 34:38
  Oh, I never thought of it that way.
• 34:41
  And then something happens and whether or not it's a big cataclysmic change that would remain to be seen, but at least someone now at least someone has your attention.
• 34:50
  That's a good point. It's like, yeah, there's not that many people that think about it as much as we do. So maybe we'll notice something that other people don't.
• 34:58
  Okay, so let's bring it home for the struggling independent podcaster who is let's say just shy of a dozen episodes in and their podcasts is an extension of their brand and they want to keep going.
• 35:13
  They know that it can work and that it will work and maybe they just maybe they just need like one tip, just one tip or two if you can, you know, if you're feeling friendly.
• 35:27
  Can we can we ask you for more details? Sure. What industry is it a solo host? Is it an interview show? How I know that, you know, after that, after you answer a few of those questions, you can then say no further questions. And then we'll just try to riff.
• 35:42
  Let's just say like mainly solopreneur. So whether it's, I don't know, like it could be like a coach, it could be a job.
• 35:52
  I work with one of those shows actually. I think I normally would hate myself for giving this tip and maybe Lauren will take it and then go more concrete.
• 36:03
  I'll give the the broad here, the broad reaching kind of blanket advice, which I hate. I'm on record saying I hate blanket advice, but I will say this person needs to figure out what their goals are and what their specific success metrics are.
• 36:18
  What are the things that they're going to track that equals success to them? I think it's really important. I know it's really important for creators to think about metrics to track and report on that are different and other than just to the download.
• 36:36
  So maybe you're obsessed with refreshing your podcast hosting provider to see how many downloads you have. It's not telling the full story. Try to figure out some other things that you like to track. There could be a lot of things that you like to track. One could be your listen through rate.
• 36:50
  Another thing could be comments that you receive on Spotify. Another thing could be website traffic. Does it go up after you release an episode email replies. Do you get email replies along with each episode when you put it out to you then hear from people and say, wow, that was so impactful. Find a way to measure success that is not just the vanity metric of downloads.
• 37:12
  And that will help you keep going beyond this 12th episode or whatever number you said to then figure out, is it worth it for you? Do you like this? Is it having the intended effect on you, but also on your on your audience, Lauren?
• 37:30
  I'm obsessed with that because, yeah, this industry is so obsessed with download numbers and it's only better story. It's only part of the story. And there's you can paint a beautiful story with other metrics. So yes.
• 37:46
  But I would also say everyone should do that. It doesn't matter. You could have asked other questions like what kind of shows is, I think that's good advice for everybody. And I think what I'm about to say is good advice for everybody. And it's.
• 37:57
  It minds very specific literally just start setting up promo swaps if you could do one thing. Go to other shows, find shows that are similar to yours. Maybe you ask your audience. Maybe you go to refonic.com slash graph. Find out where your audience is. Reach out to those shows and say, do you want to do a promo swap with me.
• 38:15
  And I guess the other tack onto that is just keep consistent consistency and good quality that you believe in stick with it because it takes a long time to do it right.
• 38:26
  And I think a lot of people hear promo swap or they look up a definition of promo swap and they think that's not for me. A, because I don't want to be promoting somebody else's show on my show to which we say you're in the wrong business because a lot of podcast growth is collaboration, not competition.
• 38:41
  Think about your potential collaborators. They're not your competition. You have the audience that they want. They have the audience that you want. You can find you can find each other's audience in each other's conversations.
• 38:55
  But I also want to impress upon people that promo swaps don't have to sound just like before we get to this week's episode, let me tell you about another show that listeners of this show will probably enjoy because you like conversations about farming.
• 39:12
  And we're a podcast about agriculture. No, it can be much more natural. You can negotiate all of these things. They can be 30 seconds long. They can be 50 seconds long, 15 seconds long. They could be five minutes long where it's just a natural conversation about a discussion that you had on your podcast, but they're talking about it on theirs.
• 39:31
  It does not have to sound super mechanical. It does not have to sound. Obviously, it's the easiest to set up things that are a little bit more mechanical, but that's why Lauren is a big advocate and I too am a big advocate for actually having conversations with these people getting on the phone with someone and trying to think about where your audience overlaps are.
• 39:51
  And then where are the natural places that we could fit into each other's existing show structure. This takes a lot of time, which is why a lot of people are scared off by it.
• 40:01
  It really does take a lot of time, but finding the right what Lauren calls podcast friend is a great way to continuously be building off of each other in a gradual way so that your audience is growing not at a super fast clip because often those fast clips come with sharp declines.
• 40:20
  Declines in that audience, but slowly and surely taking up comes by way of establishing these friendships and then continuing to find new ways to work together.
• 40:30
  I'm glad you said podcast friend because I feel like that's also a good place to like bring this home because I was going to say that too.
• 40:37
  And that goes even further back from my advice, which is set up per most watch, which is just fine to podcast friends, which means podcasts you can work with that you have similar audience, maybe it's not a genre match, maybe it's a vibe matches, you know, maybe it's just the kind of the same kind of person likes both of your shows just have to be a genre match.
• 40:54
  But it goes that's what Ariel and I that's what we're all about like we are friends in another parallel universe, we might have seen each other as I can't even picture that, but we might have seen each other as competitors, but we are friends in this space first and foremost, and because of that, I'm having the best time of my goddamn life and we're able to do a lot of really cool things.
• 41:14
  I think if people do see their competitors as friends, they're gonna just everything is going to bloom.
• 41:19
  I just appreciate that y'all have said that podcasting is more collaborative than competition because that's one thing that I have found to be a thousand percent true ever since getting into this by a complete accident when I started in 2022 is that it's nothing like legacy media where it's just cut throat.
• 41:40
  And oh, you can't be photographed with this person, you don't want to talk to this person it's you're right, if this was terrestrial radio and the three of us would not be on a Riverside video conference at all, we'd be plotting each other's demise in a conference room answering to some corporate overlord and thankfully it's not that.
• 41:58
  Yes, very grateful and I think that's just to go back to you mentioned you asked a few moments ago what what about podcasting got us both in here into this and we both said something along the lines of the people and it is true and it it sounds cheesy, but it is just a pleasant place to hang out when there's.
• 42:20
  RL conferences, but also on the internet most of the time it's pretty nurturing and a cool spot to be building a career okay, so Ariel's got earbuds collective the newsletter you got podcast the newsletter from Lauren.
• 42:35
  Tink media dot c o is the website and then there's the joint collab newsletter thing that's podcast that I texted close close podcast we text about dot sub stack dot com.
• 42:49
  Gotcha alright ladies, thank you so much for taking the time to chat podcasting today.
• 42:53
  Thanks for letting us be here together no one ever asked us to talk together and it's so much fun and thank you for.
• 43:00
  I would love to do i'm sure there's a software that analyzes this how much we talked versus how much you talked.
• 43:08
  Sorry, I'll upload it into perplexity i just you know that this is why I do this is why I like doing interviews because it's letting letting everybody shine.
• 43:16
  Gathering people who are gathering people who are steps ahead of me and letting them shine and share their insights because nobody wants to be a guest on a show where the host does 75% of the talking because I've been on those shows before and have wondered what am I.
• 43:32
  What am I PR guy get me into what am I doing here what am I what am I even doing here yeah so no thank you both thank you for any really great to connect with you on the internet in real life and can't wait for more.