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Joe Greene the Diva?! · Pittsburgh Sports Memories

0:00
SPEAKER_03: Hi everybody, welcome to the Pittsburgh Sports Memories Podcast.
0:04
SPEAKER_03: My name is Tim Hannon and I am joined by uh Steve Wirt.
0:09
SPEAKER_03: Hi, Steve.
0:10
SPEAKER_00: Hey Tim.
0:11
SPEAKER_03: In this episode, we're gonna talk about Joe Green the Diva?
0:15
SPEAKER_00: What?
0:16
SPEAKER_00: Diva?
0:17
SPEAKER_00: Did he come out like high heels and sing like show tunes or something?
0:38
SPEAKER_03: Uh I thought this would be an interesting topic to cover because we live in an era today where we as fans are, I would say, hypersensitive to anyone on the Steelers getting out of line in any way.
0:50
SPEAKER_03: If there's a guy that takes selfish penalties or writes dumb stuff on social media or fights with teammates or whatever it is, we tend to jump down that guy's throat, probably deservedly so, right?
1:03
SPEAKER_03: And we want him sent packing.
1:04
SPEAKER_03: We want the head coach sent packing because he allowed this stuff to manifest.
1:08
SPEAKER_03: And and we've had plenty of examples of that in recent years, mostly in the wide receiver room, but but elsewhere too on the roster.
1:16
SPEAKER_03: And for us as a fan base, we just don't like it, right, Steve?
1:21
SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, it's not not Steeler like.
1:25
SPEAKER_00: It's not the Steeler way, as we'd say, but I think we're going to find out that the Stealer way is the better you are, the more crap they'll put up with, I think is and I remember that going back even to the Bill Cower era.
1:40
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
1:41
SPEAKER_03: Yes, like when when Josh Miller was the only guy that got screamed at.
1:44
SPEAKER_03: Right.
1:46
SPEAKER_00: Like Eric Green could do whatever idiocy he wanted, and they kept him around.
1:51
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:51
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:51
SPEAKER_03: So so we will talk about that as we get into this.
1:55
SPEAKER_03: And in the case of Joe Green, he does a lot of stuff early in his career that today we'd we'd have zero tolerance for.
2:02
SPEAKER_03: But not only is his behavior allowed to happen, he also creates this unparalleled legacy in Pittsburgh sports history.
2:09
SPEAKER_03: So I think that's pretty interesting and worth a deeper dive.
2:12
SPEAKER_03: So let's kick this off by setting some context here.
2:15
SPEAKER_03: What is Joe Green's legacy?
2:18
SPEAKER_03: Dan Rooney called him the greatest stealer ever and said, quote, he made it what it meant to be a Pittsburgh Steeler.
2:26
SPEAKER_03: Art II said that Joe Green was, quote, the unquestioned leader of the Steelers dynasty.
2:31
SPEAKER_03: Andy Russell said Joe Green was unquestionably the NFL's best player in the 70s.
2:36
SPEAKER_03: No player had a greater impact or did more for his team.
2:39
SPEAKER_03: Bell Blunt said Joe Green was the guy who anchored that whole football team.
2:44
SPEAKER_03: He's a two-time defensive player of the year, a ten-time Pro Bowler, a four-time Super Bowl winner.
2:50
SPEAKER_03: He's in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
2:52
SPEAKER_03: He was named to the NFL's 100th anniversary all-time team.
2:56
SPEAKER_03: He's one of only three players ever to have his number retired by the Steelers.
3:01
SPEAKER_03: And Steve may be the most important accolade of all.
3:04
SPEAKER_03: He was number two on the Pittsburgh Sports Memories podcast list of 100 greatest athletes in Pittsburgh sports history.
3:12
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's the one he puts up on his mantle for sure.
3:16
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
3:16
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
3:16
SPEAKER_03: I mean, those other ones are nice too, I guess.
3:19
SPEAKER_03: But that was a big deal.
3:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
3:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
3:22
SPEAKER_03: But it didn't exactly start off that way.
3:24
SPEAKER_03: So let's get into some of that.
3:27
SPEAKER_03: Charles Edward Green grows up in Texas.
3:30
SPEAKER_03: And yeah, that's a fun fact.
3:31
SPEAKER_03: His name is actually Charles Green.
3:34
SPEAKER_03: Joe Joe is actually just a nickname given to him by his aunt, who thought that he looked like Joe Lewis.
3:40
SPEAKER_00: So he's not even his name isn't even real.
3:43
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's a first example of Diva that's right there.
3:48
SPEAKER_00: I thought his first name was mean.
3:51
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, right.
3:52
SPEAKER_03: He just went by his middle name of Joe.
3:54
SPEAKER_00: His parents just picked when he was born, like, this kid's just mean.
4:00
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, Joe, Joe, Joseph's not even in his uh legal name.
4:04
SPEAKER_03: Uh Green says that on a scale of one to ten of being a good athlete, that he rated himself as a zero.
4:12
SPEAKER_03: He says he was terrible at every sport as a kid.
4:14
SPEAKER_03: And he actually gets picked on a lot in school until this one incident where a bully named Speedy stole five dollars from his mom, and Green goes to Speedy's house and apparently beats the hell out of them, and after that, no one really messes with Joe Green anymore.
4:31
SPEAKER_00: I don't see a problem with that.
4:33
SPEAKER_00: That's not diva-like behavior.
4:35
SPEAKER_00: That's just that's just standing up for year for family.
4:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
4:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
4:39
SPEAKER_03: So nope, nope.
4:40
SPEAKER_03: We're not we're not quite diva level yet.
4:42
SPEAKER_03: He also starts playing football and he's pretty good at football, uh, but his team is not, and that's going to be kind of a theme going forward.
4:50
SPEAKER_03: And he also has quite the temper, Steve.
4:52
SPEAKER_03: He gets thrown out of nine of the ten games he plays in his junior year, and he gets thrown out of every game he plays in his senior year of high school.
5:01
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
5:01
SPEAKER_03: So that's not good.
5:03
SPEAKER_03: There's also an incident where he sees the team who just beat his school eating ice cream at a diner after the game, and he's so enraged about losing that he attacks one of the kids at the diner and then chases the entire team onto their bus.
5:18
SPEAKER_03: So we know two things at this point.
5:20
SPEAKER_03: Joe Green hates losing and he has a hard time controlling his emotions.
5:25
SPEAKER_00: Or maybe he doesn't like ice cream, I don't know.
5:28
SPEAKER_03: Or anybody else eating ice cream.
5:31
SPEAKER_03: Uh he says, quote, in hindsight, I can see that I was a really emotional young man.
5:35
SPEAKER_03: I can see that I was immature for sure, but I never associated my bad habits on the field with being immature or selfish.
5:42
SPEAKER_03: I just didn't link them to my attitude.
5:45
SPEAKER_03: So that's high school.
5:47
SPEAKER_03: A lot of people were immature in high school.
5:49
SPEAKER_03: Um Steve and I were friends in high school.
5:51
SPEAKER_03: I can certainly say that uh Steve was very mature, but I wasn't.
5:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
5:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure.
5:59
SPEAKER_03: Um Green Green goes to college at North Texas State, which is a pretty small school.
6:05
SPEAKER_00: Are they still do they still exist?
6:07
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, they still exist.
6:08
SPEAKER_00: Or did that North Texas Green Machine or whatever?
6:11
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's right.
6:12
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's that's actually how he gets the name because it was like the mean green or whatever.
6:18
SPEAKER_03: That's actually he got that new name from college.
6:21
SPEAKER_03: Not because he was actually mean, even though he kind of was.
6:25
SPEAKER_03: Uh he starts attracting some national attention at that school, including from legendary Steeler Scout Bill Nunn.
6:32
SPEAKER_03: He doesn't really have any of the incidents, like getting thrown out of games in college.
6:36
SPEAKER_03: And the difference is he's part of a good team.
6:38
SPEAKER_03: North Texas State wins like 80% of the games during Green's time there.
6:44
SPEAKER_03: So when he's winning, he seems to be a little bit more controlled.
6:49
SPEAKER_03: Uh that's going to change here in the NFL.
6:53
SPEAKER_03: The Steelers select him as the fourth overall pick in the 1969 draft.
6:58
SPEAKER_03: It's an underwhelming pick at the time.
7:00
SPEAKER_03: The Pittsburgh press famously interviews a bunch of fans who say they've never heard of him and that the Steelers just screwed up again.
7:08
SPEAKER_03: That's that whole Joe Who headline, Steve, if you remember that.
7:12
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I don't remember that, no.
7:13
SPEAKER_00: So apparently they the the paper literally wow, what an introduction to Pittsburgh, Joe Who.
7:19
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
7:19
SPEAKER_03: And and people always cite that, but it really wasn't it wasn't like the press um writing an editorial criticizing.
7:27
SPEAKER_03: It was one of those like Man on the Street, like where they interviewed like ten different fans, and that was kind of the consensus.
7:35
SPEAKER_00: Well, there's no internet, you gotta remember that.
7:38
SPEAKER_00: It wasn't like, oh, I can just Google the Texas North Texas Mean Machine roster.
7:45
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you would literally have to get a media guide from North Texas and look up their roster.
7:51
SPEAKER_00: And I mean, who's going to do that?
7:54
SPEAKER_00: I don't even think the roster was in the paper.
7:56
SPEAKER_00: I mean, what are you gonna get, like a Dallas Morning News or something?
8:00
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's yeah.
8:01
SPEAKER_03: And and I think the the NFL draft was a lot like the NHL draft is today or the MLB draft is today, where it's just under the radar, yeah.
8:11
SPEAKER_03: It's a little under the radar.
8:12
SPEAKER_03: You don't like you said, there'd be lots more much more availability of data or or footage of the guys that the Pirates or Penguins drafted.
8:22
SPEAKER_03: Uh, but you certainly wouldn't know a bunch about them beforehand.
8:26
SPEAKER_03: And in this case, like you said, there's nothing, especially for a small school like that.
8:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I mean if he was from Pitt or Penn State or maybe even like an Alabama, maybe, well, he wouldn't have been he wouldn't have been able to play for Alabama at that time.
8:41
SPEAKER_00: But um it just was what it was.
8:44
SPEAKER_00: And didn't they have the draft in like a Sheridan somewhere?
8:47
SPEAKER_00: Like off of off of like I-95, you know, like the Sheridan in New Jersey, yeah.
8:54
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, there's great footage of like this dark, smoky room.
8:57
SPEAKER_03: Pete Rosell literally takes a puff from his cigarette right before he announces the pick.
9:01
SPEAKER_00: And the Steelers with their fourth pick, fake.
9:04
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
9:06
SPEAKER_03: Literally, I I I'm not kidding.
9:08
SPEAKER_03: That's exactly what he takes a puff from his cigarette right before he announces the pick.
9:11
SPEAKER_03: So yeah, it's definitely a different scene than it is now.
9:15
SPEAKER_00: It's like Paramis, New Jersey, Sheridan Hotel.
9:18
SPEAKER_00: Right.
9:19
SPEAKER_00: From the ballroom of the Sheridan Hotel in Paramis, New Jersey.
9:23
SPEAKER_00: It's the NFL draft.
9:24
SPEAKER_03: Well, and it wasn't televised.
9:26
SPEAKER_03: All that stuff hadn't happened yet.
9:29
SPEAKER_03: Um Green Green's not thrilled about being drafted by the Steelers because the Steelers at the time are a nothing franchise who always loses.
9:38
SPEAKER_03: Green then becomes the first Steeler rookie ever to hold out of training camp.
9:43
SPEAKER_00: Oh, geez.
9:44
SPEAKER_03: And it's not pretty either.
9:46
SPEAKER_03: He says publicly, quote, I think they've used me.
9:48
SPEAKER_03: They should either pay me or trade me.
9:50
SPEAKER_03: So fans love that, right?
9:52
SPEAKER_00: When a guy holds out, a bunch of steel workers back in 1969.
9:56
SPEAKER_00: You know, they can relate.
9:58
SPEAKER_00: They can relate.
9:59
SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, why don't you write a letter to your union?
10:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
10:03
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
10:04
SPEAKER_03: So eventually the chief steps in.
10:07
SPEAKER_03: Um, Joe Green and Dan Rooney go into Art Senior's office, and Dan tells his father that he and Green they've been negotiating, and that while they're close to a contract, they're still at an impasse.
10:20
SPEAKER_03: And the chief says, Okay, you say you're close.
10:23
SPEAKER_03: How close are you?
10:24
SPEAKER_03: Dan tells him the number, and the chief says, Oh, give it to him, and then hands Joe Green a cigar, and that's how Joe Green size his first contract.
10:32
SPEAKER_00: I love the chief.
10:34
SPEAKER_00: Just pay the man.
10:35
SPEAKER_00: Pay the man.
10:36
SPEAKER_03: Yep.
10:38
SPEAKER_03: So Green comes to training camp late, and his new teammates aren't really sure what to think.
10:43
SPEAKER_03: He also gets into a shouting match with a reporter who had criticized his holdout.
10:48
SPEAKER_03: And Andy Russell says that that uh that really doesn't sit well with some of the veterans on the team.
10:54
SPEAKER_03: I I I I couldn't help but think, Steve, do you remember Ryan Leif when he came to the Chargers?
11:00
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
11:00
SPEAKER_03: He got into a shouting match with a reporter, and and there's footage of that, and you see Junior Sayel and some of the veterans just kind of like quietly like escort him away.
11:11
SPEAKER_03: Kind of like, and you can see in their faces, like, kid, you have no idea what you're doing, right?
11:17
SPEAKER_03: Like they're so disappointed that this world is.
11:19
SPEAKER_00: But then he reads like a do you ever see him read the apology?
11:23
SPEAKER_00: Like it's so like sarcastic.
11:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he it's like a written apology.
11:27
SPEAKER_00: He's like, I apologize for my offense.
11:31
SPEAKER_00: And then he like throws the letter in his locker.
11:35
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
11:36
SPEAKER_03: So so the veteran players definitely aren't thrilled about this.
11:41
SPEAKER_03: Uh, but but right away they are blown away by Green's talent.
11:45
SPEAKER_03: There's this often told story about how the first guy they line him up against in practice is Ray Mansfield, who's the all-time great center who's in the Steelers Hall of Honor.
11:55
SPEAKER_03: He's pretty good.
11:55
SPEAKER_03: And Green just tosses him aside like he's a rag doll.
11:59
SPEAKER_03: So obviously he's a he's a talent.
12:02
SPEAKER_03: The Steelers also have a new head coach that year, a guy by the name of Chuck Knoll.
12:07
SPEAKER_03: And Green's first run in with his new coach is actually over a door.
12:12
SPEAKER_03: One day Green wants to grab his practice gear before headed to the dorms at St.
12:17
SPEAKER_03: Vincent, but the door to the equipment room is locked.
12:20
SPEAKER_03: So Green decides the solution to that is he'll just kick the door down.
12:25
SPEAKER_00: Reasonable.
12:28
SPEAKER_00: Don't find somebody to unlock the door.
12:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, yeah, it was locked.
12:35
SPEAKER_03: So a couple hours later, Tuck Noel comes to his dorm room, and Green figures he's about to get chewed out over the door, but instead, Noel just calmly says, that'll be$500, Joe.
12:46
SPEAKER_03: And Noel also orders the equipment guys to stop locking the door once it does get fixed.
12:52
SPEAKER_03: And Green says he was really amazed by this.
12:55
SPEAKER_00: Gotta split the baby there, huh?
12:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
12:57
SPEAKER_03: Well, and back then the stereotypical football coach was all yelling and screaming.
13:02
SPEAKER_03: And that's not Noel's personality at all, and that'll be continue to be a big factor for Joe Green's growth.
13:08
SPEAKER_03: And you figure this was, you know, the people, the authority figures in 1969, Steve, are probably at this point the greatest generation, right?
13:19
SPEAKER_03: And they've been through World War II and everything else, and probably their way of handling younger people is drill sergeant kind of techniques, right?
13:29
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
13:30
SPEAKER_03: And that's just Joe Green says he would not have reacted well to that.
13:34
SPEAKER_03: That's not Chuck Knoll.
13:37
SPEAKER_03: Uh that first season with the Steelers starts out great.
13:40
SPEAKER_03: The Steelers beat the Lions in front of a packed crowd at Pitt Stadium on opening day.
13:44
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I bet they're gonna win a lot of games this year, too.
13:47
SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah.
13:47
SPEAKER_00: I mean, when you win the one first run right out of the gate, that's gonna lead to a great season.
13:53
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so let me let me check here.
13:56
SPEAKER_03: They then proceed to lose every single game for the rest of the season.
14:01
SPEAKER_03: They beat the Lions and then they never win again.
14:04
SPEAKER_03: Uh Green is a stud on the field.
14:07
SPEAKER_03: Opposing teams literally can't handle him.
14:10
SPEAKER_03: He's named the NFL's Defensive Rookie of the Year.
14:12
SPEAKER_03: He's selected to the Pro Bowl.
14:14
SPEAKER_03: He's also starting to develop this reputation as a player to be feared.
14:18
SPEAKER_03: There's a game at Chicago where Bears linebacker Dick Butkiss blindsides LC Greenwood on a special teams play and he knocks Greenwood out.
14:29
SPEAKER_03: Now, if you don't know who Dick Dick Butkiss was, uh watch the movie Hamburger.
14:36
SPEAKER_00: No.
14:38
SPEAKER_00: An 80s B movie, which he is in.
14:41
SPEAKER_03: He was in wasn't he in a bunch of stuff acting wise?
14:45
SPEAKER_03: I remember that.
14:46
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
14:46
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
14:47
SPEAKER_03: But but when he played, I mean, he was maybe the most feared football player of all time.
14:51
SPEAKER_00: I mean Yes, for sure.
14:53
SPEAKER_03: Literally, there was the there's a famous quote there's a running back for the Packers who said he'd rather go one-on-one with a grizzly bear than face Dick Buccus.
15:02
SPEAKER_03: Um, but you know who's not afraid of Dick Buccus, do you?
15:05
SPEAKER_00: That'd probably be Joe Green.
15:07
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, Joe Green.
15:08
SPEAKER_03: He comes off the sidelines, he gets right in Buccus' face.
15:11
SPEAKER_03: And then this is where the story gets a little murky depending on who's telling in.
15:15
SPEAKER_03: Because according to both Myron Cope and Ray Mansfield, Green spits on Buccus and Buccus runs away scared.
15:24
SPEAKER_03: According to Joe Green, that never happened.
15:27
SPEAKER_03: Green says Buccus would, quote, still be whipping me had I done that.
15:31
SPEAKER_03: And according to Buccus, he did walk away from the confrontation, but it was only because he wasn't going to let some rookie bait him into getting thrown out of the game.
15:39
SPEAKER_03: Either way, Joe Green is developing a reputation as a pretty fierce defender.
15:47
SPEAKER_03: But he's also becoming a liability.
15:49
SPEAKER_03: He really does not like officials, and he frequently takes 15-yard penalties for berating them.
15:56
SPEAKER_03: So that's a problem.
15:58
SPEAKER_03: In week four against New York, Green is ejected for hitting Giants quarterback Fran Tarkington late.
16:05
SPEAKER_03: In week 10, he's ejected again, this time for hitting two Vikings players on consecutive plays with premeditated forearms.
16:14
SPEAKER_00: Why do you get thrown out of games in the 70s?
16:16
SPEAKER_00: You must have really like done something that was like they let a lot of stuff go back then.
16:24
SPEAKER_03: They they did.
16:25
SPEAKER_03: You're right.
16:26
SPEAKER_03: I mean, you you you're absolutely right.
16:28
SPEAKER_03: So you really had to work hard to make a hit that got you thrown out of a game.
16:34
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I know Fran Tarkington's kind of like one of those face of league guys, but yeah, what what did he do to Fran Tarkington?
16:40
SPEAKER_00: Jeez.
16:41
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
16:42
SPEAKER_03: Uh well, that's not that it's not just that, Steve.
16:45
SPEAKER_03: The the Minnesota game, as he comes off the field in that game in Minnesota, Carl Eller and Alan Page, who two of two legendary Vikings defenders, they make the mistake of admonishing Green.
16:58
SPEAKER_03: So Green goes over to the trainer's toolbox on the bench and he pulls out a large pair of scissors and then charges the Vikings bench, swinging these scissors at Eller and Page.
17:08
SPEAKER_00: Oh my god.
17:09
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
17:10
SPEAKER_00: You know, in less enlightened times, I would be considered assault.
17:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
17:15
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
17:15
SPEAKER_03: So what's what is the reaction to this, right?
17:18
SPEAKER_00: You would have been says, like, you do that today, you're you're you'd be lucky to ever play in the league ever again.
17:24
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
17:25
SPEAKER_03: And this is going to be a theme.
17:26
SPEAKER_03: We're going to have a lot of incidents where you're going to be able to say that same thing.
17:30
SPEAKER_00: This isn't even the one.
17:33
SPEAKER_03: So you have this obviously very talented rookie, but he's hurting the team with penalties and ejections.
17:39
SPEAKER_03: He's chasing people with scissors on the field.
17:42
SPEAKER_03: So this is a big thing.
17:43
SPEAKER_00: baby's mother never told him to not run with scissors.
17:47
SPEAKER_03: So so this is obviously a big story in the media, right?
17:51
SPEAKER_03: Well, not really.
17:52
SPEAKER_00: Back page of the sports section.
17:54
SPEAKER_03: Joe Green.
17:55
SPEAKER_03: I did a lot of old newspaper reading for this episode.
17:59
SPEAKER_03: The Post Gazette says little about the Vikings incident in their coverage the next day.
18:04
SPEAKER_03: They do note that Joe Green was ejected and that this penalties led to a touchdown, but that the game was like pretty much decided at that point because Minnesota was up by a bunch of points, so it didn't really matter.
18:15
SPEAKER_03: The Pittsburgh Press, they they do an entire column about the Giants incident with Fran Tarkington.
18:21
SPEAKER_03: But they quote Green, he kind of says that he didn't think it was late hit.
18:26
SPEAKER_03: He's he's sort of like, well, I thought he still had the ball when I hit him.
18:29
SPEAKER_03: I didn't see him release it.
18:31
SPEAKER_03: And they interview the Giants coach, and he says he didn't even see the play, which is weird because why wouldn't you be watching the game if you're the head coach?
18:41
SPEAKER_00: He was busy smoking a cigarette.
18:44
SPEAKER_03: Possibly, quite possibly.
18:46
SPEAKER_03: Uh and and and he's upset about what happened, but not because he's upset at Joe Green.
18:52
SPEAKER_03: What he's upset about is that after that hit, Tarkinton started calling passing plays instead of running plays to kill the clock.
19:00
SPEAKER_03: And he wonders if maybe that hit made Tarkinton's mind unclear.
19:04
SPEAKER_03: So the Giants coach is more worried about like Tarkinton calling the wrong plays after he got hit than he was about to hit itself.
19:11
SPEAKER_03: And then Chuck Knoll's reaction is even crazier.
19:14
SPEAKER_03: And I'm going to read this verbatim from the article in the Pittsburgh Press, Steve.
19:17
SPEAKER_03: This is exactly what the Pittsburgh Press wrote the day after that game.
19:20
SPEAKER_03: Quote, Coach Chuck Knoll wasn't overly disturbed that one of his tackles had been banished for over-aggressive football.
19:28
SPEAKER_03: He may have even enjoyed it.
19:29
SPEAKER_03: It's a first for the Steelers, smiled Knowle.
19:32
SPEAKER_00: Well, I guess maybe he's just happy somebody cares.
19:36
SPEAKER_00: I I I I don't so why so the coach for the Giants, because this is Parkington at the end of his career.
19:43
SPEAKER_00: He doesn't is it.
19:45
SPEAKER_03: No, this is this is he had two stints in Minnesota.
19:47
SPEAKER_03: He went to the Giants in between.
19:49
SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
19:51
SPEAKER_00: And so, wow, whatever.
19:53
SPEAKER_03: Well, let's let's do this.
19:55
SPEAKER_03: Let's imagine this same scenario today.
19:58
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
19:59
SPEAKER_03: Let's say that like George Pickens got himself ejected from multiple games and took personal foul penalties and other games for arguing with the refs, and then chased Lamar Jackson with a pair of scissors.
20:10
SPEAKER_03: And then let's imagine that Mike Tomlin smiled about it and shrugged it off.
20:14
SPEAKER_03: I I feel like if that happened today, there would be a full-fledged riot in the middle of Market Square.
20:20
SPEAKER_03: Like, I'm not kidding.
20:22
SPEAKER_03: Like people would literally riot in the streets of Pittsburgh if you saw that today.
20:26
SPEAKER_03: But here in 1969, not a lot of criticism that I can find for Noel or for Green.
20:32
SPEAKER_00: There's no clips of it either, I imagine.
20:35
SPEAKER_00: There's no tape.
20:36
SPEAKER_00: So that makes a difference.
20:38
SPEAKER_00: That makes a big difference.
20:40
SPEAKER_02: That's true.
20:40
SPEAKER_02: That's true.
20:42
SPEAKER_03: Uh Noel really is becoming kind of a green whisperer at this point.
20:47
SPEAKER_03: Uh this is this is what Green said.
20:50
SPEAKER_03: He said, quote, we'd be watching tape, and after a bad play, I'd go on a rant and cost us another 15 yards.
20:55
SPEAKER_03: And Coach Noel would say quietly, what do we gain from handing the other team 15 yards of offense?
21:01
SPEAKER_03: The way he phrased it was so important.
21:03
SPEAKER_03: He wasn't yelling at me or screaming at me.
21:06
SPEAKER_03: He asked a simple question of me a defensive player about how my actions benefited the team.
21:11
SPEAKER_03: As time wore on that season, I gradually began to notice how negatively my attitude affected the team.
21:17
SPEAKER_03: I came to the conclusion I was hurting the team on my own.
21:20
SPEAKER_03: Slowly I took control of my temper and harnessed it between the whistles.
21:24
SPEAKER_03: I truly don't know if I if that would have happened as quickly or at all with a different coach.
21:31
SPEAKER_00: It's almost like like in uh psycho psychiatric circle, they call it cognitive behavioral therapy, where you get people to think about their actions.
21:40
SPEAKER_00: And that's that's kind of exactly what Chuck Knoll did there without realizing it.
21:44
SPEAKER_00: Or maybe he did realize it.
21:45
SPEAKER_00: He was pretty smart and well cultured.
21:48
SPEAKER_03: So Yeah.
21:49
SPEAKER_03: What whatever w I mean another coach, probably a lot of coaches back then, you know, What are you doing?
21:55
SPEAKER_03: What what's wrong with you?
21:56
SPEAKER_03: You can't do this, right?
21:58
SPEAKER_03: Just yelling and screaming and Yeah, and people don't hear that next game.
22:02
SPEAKER_00: They don't hear that.
22:03
SPEAKER_00: They just, you know, whereas this, you're more of like kind of piercing through all the emotions and you're just getting to where they can think about their actions and how that's negatively affecting them.
22:14
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
22:15
SPEAKER_03: As the 1970 season gets underway, uh Green does seem to tone it down a bit on the field, but off the field he's still causing issues.
22:24
SPEAKER_03: Uh there's a labor dispute that season between the players and the owners, and Pittsburgh press writer Pat Livingston writes a column criticizing the players, which isn't a surprise.
22:34
SPEAKER_03: I mean, even today, I think when there's labor disputes, fans and sometimes side with ownership back then.
22:40
SPEAKER_03: I mean, man, you're lucky you're getting paid to play a game.
22:44
SPEAKER_03: You should play it for free, right?
22:45
SPEAKER_03: That was the attitude.
22:46
SPEAKER_03: Right.
22:47
SPEAKER_03: Uh well that doesn't sit well with Joe Green.
22:49
SPEAKER_03: So when he sees Pat Livingston, he spits right into his face.
22:54
SPEAKER_03: The press threatens to sue the Steelers.
22:57
SPEAKER_03: They actually use the word assault to describe the incident, Steve.
23:00
SPEAKER_03: He talked about the scissor thing, which you know, would have been classified as assault.
23:04
SPEAKER_03: Um they're they're saying this was assault.
23:06
SPEAKER_03: I think that would be classified as assault today, too, actually.
23:10
SPEAKER_03: The editor uh of the press prints a note bashing Joe Green, which ends with quote, Joe Green is old enough and big enough to act as grown up as he looks.
23:21
SPEAKER_03: Green, for his part, is unapologetic and says, I'd do it again.
23:27
SPEAKER_03: So once again, this would be a huge story today, and we'd probably get a guy suspended, if not outright released.
23:34
SPEAKER_03: Again, Steve, imagine if, I don't know, Cam Sutton spit on Adam Schefter and then said he would do it again, right?
23:42
SPEAKER_03: Like you can just imagine.
23:44
SPEAKER_03: But in 1970, it just kind of is what it is.
23:48
SPEAKER_00: Maybe shouldn't be asking so many dumb questions.
23:52
SPEAKER_03: Maybe you should just write all positive articles about the team.
23:56
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
23:57
SPEAKER_03: Uh 1970 is a bit of a sophomore slump.
24:00
SPEAKER_03: Green not playing as well as he did as a rookie, and opponents are really starting to key on him now with double teams.
24:06
SPEAKER_03: So he's nowhere near as effective.
24:08
SPEAKER_03: He's also doing things like getting fined by Noel for coming in late for curfew, things of that nature.
24:14
SPEAKER_00: Does he show up late for playoff games?
24:17
SPEAKER_00: Because I hear that's a popular thing to do in this town.
24:20
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
24:20
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
24:21
SPEAKER_03: Uh there were no playoff games, so that wasn't a problem.
24:24
SPEAKER_00: At least he just showed the show up maybe late for regular season games.
24:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:30
SPEAKER_03: The uh the final game of the season in 1970 is at Philadelphia.
24:35
SPEAKER_03: It also happens to be the final ever NFL gameplay that Franklin field.
24:39
SPEAKER_03: And Green is being held all game long.
24:42
SPEAKER_03: The refs aren't calling holding.
24:44
SPEAKER_03: So finally, he threatens the guard for the Eagles.
24:47
SPEAKER_03: He says, Man, if you hold me one more time, I'm going to have to hurt you.
24:51
SPEAKER_03: And sure enough, the guy holds him again, and the next thing you know, they're literally bringing a stretcher out for the guard.
24:57
SPEAKER_03: So they pull it on the backup guard.
24:59
SPEAKER_03: He holds green, and green knocks him out of the game.
25:03
SPEAKER_03: Now they send in a rookie.
25:04
SPEAKER_03: This is literally like the third guy they're sending in to play guard.
25:08
SPEAKER_03: And this guy had gone to North Texas State.
25:11
SPEAKER_03: So he and Green were friends.
25:13
SPEAKER_03: And Green says, now don't be holding me like there's other guys.
25:17
SPEAKER_03: You know how much I hate that.
25:18
SPEAKER_03: But the guy holds him anyway because it's the only way to stop him.
25:22
SPEAKER_03: Green doesn't want to hurt his former teammate.
25:25
SPEAKER_03: So now he's stuck.
25:26
SPEAKER_03: He's really ticked off.
25:27
SPEAKER_03: He feels like the refs aren't doing anything about it.
25:29
SPEAKER_03: So the next play, the Eagles are coming up to the line of scrimmage.
25:33
SPEAKER_03: Green walks up and he picks up the ball.
25:36
SPEAKER_03: And he looks at the refs and he says, if you're not going to start calling penalties, then this game is over.
25:44
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
25:45
SPEAKER_00: Isn't that delay of game?
25:47
SPEAKER_03: So the headlines says, if you don't put the ball down, we will flag you for delay of game and we will eject you.
25:54
SPEAKER_03: But Green doesn't budge, he just stands there with the ball.
25:57
SPEAKER_03: Another ref asks Andy Russell, who's the team captain, to intervene.
26:02
SPEAKER_03: And Russell's given conflicting versions of his response.
26:04
SPEAKER_03: He has said both that he tried to talk to Green and Hey, just give him the ball back.
26:10
SPEAKER_03: And Green said no.
26:11
SPEAKER_03: And he's also said that he told the ref, like, I'm not talking to him right now.
26:14
SPEAKER_03: You do it.
26:17
SPEAKER_03: Either way, the end result is that Joe Green is not putting that ball down, and the game is at a standstill.
26:23
SPEAKER_03: And at this point, the crowd starts to boo.
26:26
SPEAKER_03: And you know, it's Philadelphia.
26:28
SPEAKER_03: I've given Philly fans a lot of grief on the show, and certainly their reputation is far from unblemished, but I gotta say, in this instance, I can't blame them.
26:36
SPEAKER_03: Like here we are, the game has stopped because one of the opposing players literally took the ball and won't give it back.
26:42
SPEAKER_00: What is this third grade recess?
26:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
26:45
SPEAKER_03: Like, yeah, seriously.
26:47
SPEAKER_03: So Green yells something at the fans and then he heaves the ball high into the stands.
26:52
SPEAKER_03: And this is another one where, depending on who's telling the story, Green either like threw it into the first row of the crowd or he tucked it like beyond the upper deck, like out of the stadium with a superhuman throw that Terry Brazzard couldn't have even made.
27:06
SPEAKER_03: Regardless, he definitely throws the ball into the stands and then he walks off the field.
27:10
SPEAKER_03: And the refs don't formally eject him from the game because he kind of ejects himself.
27:17
SPEAKER_03: Uh and he's just kind of like, hey, if they're not going to call it fair, then I'm done playing today.
27:22
SPEAKER_00: He took his ball and went he took his ball and went home.
27:25
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well, he tried to take his ball.
27:27
SPEAKER_03: He definitely went home.
27:29
SPEAKER_03: Uh so what yeah, so again, what's the response to this?
27:32
SPEAKER_03: Like 1970 Twitter must be blowing up, right?
27:36
SPEAKER_00: The editorial sections of the Post Gazette is going nuts.
27:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:39
SPEAKER_03: So so I read the coverage of that game from the December 21st, 1970 edition of the Post Gazette.
27:46
SPEAKER_03: They don't even mention the incident.
27:48
SPEAKER_03: They do note that Nell Blunt that Nel Blunt and an Eagles player got kicked out for fighting, but the article says nothing about green.
27:57
SPEAKER_03: So, okay, fine.
27:59
SPEAKER_03: The BDA is not really invested in that, but ownership must have a problem with all this, right?
28:03
SPEAKER_03: Well, Dan Rooney says years later that he's at that game at Franklin Field, sitting in the in the box with his father, and he looks at the chief and he says, Wow, this is a special guy if he cares that much about losing.
28:17
SPEAKER_03: Now, is that true or is that just what he said in retrospect years later, knowing that Joe Green was Joe Green?
28:26
SPEAKER_03: But it I it's just hard to imagine that.
28:29
SPEAKER_03: Like the guy took the ball, wouldn't give it back, threw it into the stands, and walked off the field, and the owner's like, now there's now there's a winner.
28:37
SPEAKER_03: You know?
28:38
SPEAKER_03: It just it made me think of like that scene in office space where the main character like is not coming to work, and the consultants are like, now there's a guy with with management written all over him.
28:52
SPEAKER_00: So we think we're not challenging him enough.
28:56
SPEAKER_00: Right.
28:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
28:59
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
29:00
SPEAKER_03: Uh Green, meanwhile, is pretty miserable.
29:02
SPEAKER_03: He says the losing magnifies all the things he hates about being in Pittsburgh, the cold weather, the smoky air, the lack of fan interest.
29:11
SPEAKER_03: So he's not having a good time.
29:13
SPEAKER_03: 1971 is a little better of a year for the team.
29:16
SPEAKER_03: They're starting to improve, and they actually have a shot at the playoffs late in the season, but they're still growing pains.
29:23
SPEAKER_03: Green says games are often erratic.
29:26
SPEAKER_03: He says, quote, we'd get a sack, then a penalty.
29:28
SPEAKER_03: We'd pick off the other team, then fumble the ball back to them.
29:32
SPEAKER_03: Seemingly every time we did something good, something bad would happen.
29:36
SPEAKER_03: So that's the kind of team the Steelers have in 1971, like it's starting to get good, but they're not quite there yet.
29:41
SPEAKER_03: And Green continues to struggle with losing.
29:44
SPEAKER_03: There's a game at Chicago where the Steelers lose on a last-second touchdown pass by Bears quarterback Kent Nicks, who used to be the Steelers quarterback.
29:53
SPEAKER_03: And Green says, quote, I'll never forget the anger that surged through my body as the clock ticked down.
29:59
SPEAKER_03: I turned the other way, and I was so furious about the loss that I threw my helmet as far as I could and then hit the goalpost.
30:07
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
30:09
SPEAKER_03: He also still largely seems to resent the fans.
30:13
SPEAKER_03: There's a game at Three River Stadium that year against the Chargers, where San Diego is driving for the potential game-winning touchdown in the final seconds, but they're out of timeouts.
30:23
SPEAKER_03: While the fans are so loud that the refs actually stop the game, which obviously benefits the Chargers.
30:29
SPEAKER_03: And of course, today you would want your fans to be super loud as the other team was driving in the final seconds.
30:35
SPEAKER_03: But back then, as we've talked about on the show before, referees were instructed to stop the game if one of the teams couldn't hear their signals.
30:42
SPEAKER_03: The Steelers still hold on for the win, but after the game, Green calls out the fans and says he's really upset about how they almost cost them the game.
30:50
SPEAKER_00: What a different era.
30:52
SPEAKER_03: Yep.
30:54
SPEAKER_00: Like I the only last time, like, so what?
30:56
SPEAKER_00: Were they doing like that thing where the Jets were doing like years and years ago under Parcells?
31:01
SPEAKER_00: Remember that?
31:01
SPEAKER_02: Like Neil O'Donnell was like, uh, I can't hear, I can't hear.
31:04
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's exactly what they were doing.
31:06
SPEAKER_03: And then the refs I will take away a timeout.
31:09
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
31:10
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and that well, they and just stopping the game because the Chargers didn't have any timeouts.
31:14
SPEAKER_03: They're driving, but they're out of timeouts, and the refs blow a whistle to stop the play, which obviously helps the Chargers, right?
31:22
SPEAKER_03: And uh until the fans quiet down, which is yeah, hard to believe that that was a thing for so many years, but it was.
31:29
SPEAKER_00: I bet that rule's still on the rule book.
31:32
SPEAKER_00: Guarantee you it's still on the rule book.
31:34
SPEAKER_03: It would be an interesting thing to look up.
31:36
SPEAKER_00: I'm surprised Bill Belichick didn't try it.
31:38
SPEAKER_00: It's like that that would be something, you know, not gonna run the play.
31:43
SPEAKER_03: You know, that would be a very Belichick-in, like obscure role to dig up.
31:49
SPEAKER_03: Uh, 1972 is finally the year that the Steelers' fortunes start to turn.
31:53
SPEAKER_03: They draft a running back that year, some guy named Franco Harris.
31:57
SPEAKER_03: And Green's talked a lot over the years about how important he felt that Franco was to the Steelers.
32:02
SPEAKER_03: He said, quote, Franco changed everything for us.
32:05
SPEAKER_03: Back then it was a running league, and you had to have a dynamic runner.
32:09
SPEAKER_03: And for many years, we had what I'd say was the best in the league.
32:14
SPEAKER_03: So getting Franco really turned things around.
32:16
SPEAKER_03: The Steelers start stacking wins that year.
32:19
SPEAKER_03: But Green says the big turning point for him actually comes in a loss at Dallas.
32:25
SPEAKER_03: Green says that by 1972, football had stopped being fun and he seriously considered quitting.
32:31
SPEAKER_03: But what changes his mind is the Cowboys actually beating the Steelers 17 to 13 in week four.
32:37
SPEAKER_03: And Green says what was different about that game, he says it's the first time that he can remember where they didn't give the game away.
32:44
SPEAKER_03: Like Dallas was just the better team.
32:47
SPEAKER_03: And even though they lost, it was like they lost legitimately instead of the Steelers doing something dumb to hand them the win.
32:53
SPEAKER_03: He actually said that was his turning point.
32:57
SPEAKER_00: Well, they they say you look more you learn more from a loss than a win.
33:02
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I guess that's true in this case.
33:05
SPEAKER_03: Uh meanwhile, Green is very dominant on the field.
33:09
SPEAKER_03: Uh, there's a preseason game against New York where Jets coach Weeb Eubank says, quote, the Steelers have a good team, but we just couldn't contain Green.
33:18
SPEAKER_03: At least Joe Namath got out of there alive.
33:20
SPEAKER_03: That's literally Weeb Eubank after the game.
33:23
SPEAKER_03: Uh quotes offensive lineman John Williams that year tells a reporter, When you go up against Phil Green, you really have to psych yourself up because it's either you or him.
33:32
SPEAKER_03: And then Paul Brown, the legendary Bengals coach, is coming up with what he called junk blocking schemes to stop Green, basically just multiple guys blocking him on different plays.
33:44
SPEAKER_03: And Green wins the NFL's Defensive Player of the Year award that season.
33:49
SPEAKER_03: Uh, he's also still very intense.
33:51
SPEAKER_03: Uh, he punches Brown center Bob DeMarco and knocks out a few of DeMarco's teeth.
33:56
SPEAKER_03: So he's still a guy that doesn't like being held or messed with on the field, but he does seem to be controlling his temper a little bit better by this point.
34:04
SPEAKER_00: Has he kicked anybody in the groin yet?
34:06
SPEAKER_03: No, that happens a few years later.
34:08
SPEAKER_00: That's also the Browns.
34:10
SPEAKER_03: Uh he credits some of the veterans on the team for showing him the right way to carry himself.
34:15
SPEAKER_03: And Noel also continues to be a huge influence.
34:18
SPEAKER_03: Uh Green says uh Coach Noel pulled me aside after I unloaded on an official, and he said to me very calmly, you know, Joe, those officials are human beings too.
34:27
SPEAKER_03: They have families and they probably don't like being talked to like that.
34:31
SPEAKER_03: And I don't know why, but after years of acting out, what Coach Noel said really sunk in.
34:37
SPEAKER_03: So that's interesting, isn't it?
34:40
SPEAKER_03: Like he hates referees and he berates them and he takes the ball away because they won't call holding.
34:46
SPEAKER_03: But Chuck Noel's like, think about it.
34:48
SPEAKER_03: They probably have kids at home.
34:50
SPEAKER_03: And he's like, Yeah, I never really thought about it that way.
34:53
SPEAKER_00: They're human too.
34:55
SPEAKER_00: Like, really?
34:56
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's amazing sometimes how little little things like that can make a big impact.
35:01
SPEAKER_03: He also says that Noel makes a speech that season saying that the Steelers are capable of winning.
35:05
SPEAKER_03: They just had to win it, and that really impacts Green.
35:08
SPEAKER_03: Uh the end result is that the Steelers are making a playoff run.
35:13
SPEAKER_03: Joe Green is maturing.
35:14
SPEAKER_03: Here's what the Pittsburgh press says about Joe Green in November of 1972.
35:18
SPEAKER_03: Quote, this is Joe Green's fourth year with the Steelers.
35:22
SPEAKER_03: He is 26 and often talks with the experience of a man 15 years older.
35:27
SPEAKER_03: On defense, Joe Green is the club leader.
35:29
SPEAKER_03: He leads in actions and words.
35:33
SPEAKER_03: In week 13, they're playing at Houston with a chance to clinch their first playoff burst since 1947.
35:39
SPEAKER_03: And Joe Green has the game of his life.
35:41
SPEAKER_03: He registers five sacks, a forced fumble, a fumble recovery, and he blocks a field goal.
35:48
SPEAKER_03: Wow.
35:48
SPEAKER_03: Former Houston head coach Lou Remkiss calls it, quote, the best performance I've ever seen from a defensive lineman.
35:54
SPEAKER_03: In the playoffs that year, as we all know, the Steelers are down seven to six to Oakland in the final seconds of the game when a pass ricochetes off Jack Tatum into the arms of Franco Harris for an immaculate victory.
36:05
SPEAKER_03: And even though the Steelers lose the AFC Championship game that year, they're clearly no longer the same old Steelers by this point.
36:14
SPEAKER_03: In 1973, the Steelers make the playoffs again, but they lose to Oakland.
36:18
SPEAKER_03: It's another good season for Green on the field, but one where he's still showing signs of some of the drama that plagued him earlier in his career.
36:26
SPEAKER_03: There's a game against Houston where Green is frustrated and he takes himself out of the game.
36:33
SPEAKER_03: And some of his teammates are pretty upset by that.
36:36
SPEAKER_03: One player says, quote, my stock in Green went way down after that.
36:40
SPEAKER_03: Tom Keating, who had just been traded to the Steelers, said he felt like he needed to call out Green for doing that, but he was the new guy.
36:48
SPEAKER_03: He didn't feel like it was his place.
36:50
SPEAKER_03: And Andy Russell said Noel would have cut anyone else who acted that way.
36:57
SPEAKER_03: In 1974, the Steelers are once again on track to win the AFC Central Division.
37:01
SPEAKER_03: Green is once again dominant.
37:03
SPEAKER_03: In fact, he ends up winning his second Defensive Player of the Year award that year.
37:07
SPEAKER_03: In week 12, the Steelers are 8, 2, and 1, and they're playing at home against the 5-6 Oilers.
37:14
SPEAKER_03: This is a game they should win.
37:16
SPEAKER_03: In fact, it's a game they need to win in order to keep pace over Cincinnati and the AFC Central Division standings.
37:22
SPEAKER_03: But the Steelers play a terrible game.
37:24
SPEAKER_03: They commit multiple turnovers, they're out of sync, and they lose 13-10.
37:29
SPEAKER_03: So that game against Houston, it's on a Sunday.
37:32
SPEAKER_03: The Monday night football game that week is Miami versus Cincinnati.
37:36
SPEAKER_03: And remember, at this point, the Dolphins are the three-time defending AFC champions, and they just completely dismantle a really good Bengals team on national TV.
37:46
SPEAKER_03: And Joe Green watches that game on television, and he says he became so jealous and enraged watching Miami just how the Dolphins executed their plays so well.
37:58
SPEAKER_03: Like this is what an elite team looks like.
38:01
SPEAKER_03: And Joe Green just thinks we're just we're not that we're not at that level, and we've just never been at that level the whole time I've been here.
38:08
SPEAKER_03: And he decides he's going to quit the Steelers.
38:12
SPEAKER_03: He literally gets all of his stuff out of his locker the next day and he walks out on the team.
38:18
SPEAKER_03: Dandy Russell called it a mind snap.
38:20
SPEAKER_03: Like we're in the middle of a late season playoff run And Joe Green is like, I'm done.
38:26
SPEAKER_03: I'm not playing for this team anymore.
38:29
SPEAKER_00: Because of something.
38:30
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
38:33
SPEAKER_00: Still some immaturity there.
38:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a shame.
38:38
SPEAKER_00: I was 74 too.
38:41
SPEAKER_00: Yikes.
38:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
38:43
SPEAKER_00: That's that's wild.
38:44
SPEAKER_00: Was that I guess was that publicly known that he had done that?
38:49
SPEAKER_03: Uh I I do not think so.
38:51
SPEAKER_03: No.
38:53
SPEAKER_03: No.
38:54
SPEAKER_03: Uh and and what ends up happening is Lionel Taylor, who is the Steelers' wide receiver coach, he's the one that stops him.
39:00
SPEAKER_03: He he sits in Joe, he like follows him out to his car.
39:03
SPEAKER_03: He sits in his car with them.
39:05
SPEAKER_03: And I guess he talks some sense into him.
39:07
SPEAKER_03: He's like, don't quit.
39:08
SPEAKER_03: You know, we have a good team.
39:10
SPEAKER_03: And Green changes his mind.
39:12
SPEAKER_03: And then after that, like as they say, the rest is history.
39:16
SPEAKER_03: By the 1974 playoffs, the Post Gazette is saying that Joe Green is like EF Hutton.
39:21
SPEAKER_03: And for those of too young to remember that reference, E.F.
39:23
SPEAKER_03: Hutton was this brokerage firm who used to run these ads that said when E.F.
39:27
SPEAKER_03: Hutton talks, people listen.
39:28
SPEAKER_03: Remember that, Steve?
39:30
SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, back before I was born, sure.
39:33
SPEAKER_03: No, that was their tagline for years.
39:35
SPEAKER_03: I remember that when I was a kid.
39:36
SPEAKER_03: Anyway, the point being that Joe Green carried a lot of weight with his teammates.
39:40
SPEAKER_00: My parents don't dabble in the stock market.
39:46
SPEAKER_03: In the playoffs against O.J.
39:48
SPEAKER_03: Simpson and the Bills, the Steelers invent this scheme called the stunt 4-3 where Green lines up in an angle between the center and the guard.
39:58
SPEAKER_03: Never figure it out.
39:59
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, Buffalo can't stop it.
40:02
SPEAKER_00: Well, I bet OJ will, you know, figure it out.
40:05
SPEAKER_00: He'll change his gloves at halftime.
40:08
SPEAKER_03: Oh.
40:14
SPEAKER_03: Green says that game is where is the one where the Steelers have finally become a team.
40:18
SPEAKER_03: He says, quote, for the first time, the fans cared for us as a team, not for individuals, not for one player or against another player, but for us.
40:27
SPEAKER_03: It was a whole new experience, and I loved every minute of it.
40:30
SPEAKER_03: In Super Bowl nine, Green dominates the Vikings.
40:33
SPEAKER_03: He has an interception and a fumble recovery.
40:36
SPEAKER_03: To this day, that is one of only three Super Bowls ever where an offense was completely shot out by defense.
40:42
SPEAKER_03: And after that, of course, the Steelers win three more Super Bowls.
40:46
SPEAKER_03: Green is the unquestioned leader, the savvy veteran.
40:49
SPEAKER_03: And as we said at the start, the greatest player in the history of one of the NFL's flagship franchises.
40:56
SPEAKER_00: And he gets a cool Coke commercial.
40:58
SPEAKER_03: And he gets a cool Coke commercial.
41:02
SPEAKER_03: So let's do some analysis here about how we came to this point.
41:06
SPEAKER_03: And I just I just want to recap.
41:08
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
41:09
SPEAKER_03: Joe Green is a player who, in his first six seasons in the NFL, got ejected from multiple games, tried to stab a couple of Hall of Famers with scissors, almost gets the team sued by spitting in the face of a reporter, once delayed a game by heaving the ball into the stands because he was mad at the refs, repeatedly got in trouble for missing curfew or kicking down doors, lashed out at the fans, angered his teammates by pulling himself out of a game, and then literally quit on his team in the middle of a Super Bowl run.
41:42
SPEAKER_03: So how is this guy the greatest stealer of all time?
41:46
SPEAKER_03: And why did no one seem to care about all of this when it was happening as they probably would today?
41:53
SPEAKER_03: And I I kind of have three different reasons why this shook out the way it did, and I want your opinion on these, Steve.
42:00
SPEAKER_03: So reason number one, it's a it's a very different time.
42:06
SPEAKER_03: You know, this is an era where fans are still calling the black players the N-word.
42:10
SPEAKER_03: Uh in 1973, the Steelers kicked KDK reporter Lee Arthur out of practice because she was a woman and they said only men can are allowed to cover practice.
42:20
SPEAKER_00: As well it should be, Tim.
42:22
SPEAKER_00: As well it should be.
42:23
SPEAKER_00: Boys come, boys come up, boys, come.
42:27
SPEAKER_03: So uh it's just a different time we were living in in general, right?
42:32
SPEAKER_00: It's very distracting having a woman in the locker room, you know, and I'm trying to shower with all these other naked men.
42:39
SPEAKER_03: I mean, you know, yeah, he was literally on the he was literally at the practice field.
42:43
SPEAKER_03: He wasn't even in the locker room, but that's okay.
42:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
42:47
SPEAKER_03: Uh the NFL is definitely, you know, getting more popular at this time, but the coverage of the league is still limited.
42:55
SPEAKER_03: And and honestly, like I feel like it the the coverage of the NFL mostly stayed that way up until the internet era.
43:01
SPEAKER_03: Back then in Pittsburgh, you had the two newspapers, you had the you had the evening news, you had a handful of talk radio shows.
43:09
SPEAKER_00: NFL films.
43:10
SPEAKER_03: You had NFL films.
43:12
SPEAKER_00: But even you didn't have ESPN though to show it.
43:16
SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't know where they showed.
43:17
SPEAKER_00: Would KBK show NFL films occasionally or something?
43:21
SPEAKER_03: Probably, yeah.
43:22
SPEAKER_03: But I mean it was few and full.
43:24
SPEAKER_00: Like ESPN was until what, 1980, 1981?
43:27
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
43:28
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
43:29
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
43:30
SPEAKER_03: And and so you didn't have ESPN, you didn't have 24 by 7 coverage, there were no blogs, there was no clickbait news sites, no Twitter, no uh the top five things we learned from Sunday's game, you know, no what are they saying in Baltimore after this game, or uh weekly power rankings, right?
43:48
SPEAKER_03: None of that stuff exists, really, the not in the 70s or even in the eighties and nineties.
43:53
SPEAKER_03: That really starts in the internet era.
43:55
SPEAKER_03: Would you agree?
43:57
SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, I think.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: Think you're right.
44:01
SPEAKER_00: Like you would talk more in like among your friends or at a bar, or you know, I'm sure that's how people, you know, talked about the game or whatever.
44:11
SPEAKER_00: It was much more social, like face-to-face, whereas now it's like y'all behind a computer screen.
44:17
SPEAKER_00: So I think I prefer it.
44:18
SPEAKER_00: I think I prefer it face to face, but I'll maybe I'm just old.
44:22
SPEAKER_03: Well, and and when you talked about the game, it was because you watched it on Sunday and you're talking about what happened.
44:29
SPEAKER_00: Or oh man, I had to I had to work at the mill, you know, a swing shift and I I missed the game.
44:35
SPEAKER_00: No, what happened, Tim?
44:36
SPEAKER_00: Tell me, you know, oh, you tell me me and Joe Green threw a ball in the stands.
44:40
SPEAKER_00: It was wild.
44:41
SPEAKER_00: And just because you're at the game, sometimes you don't understand what's happening because the officials aren't mic's back then, I'm pretty sure.
44:48
SPEAKER_00: So you, you know, and then the official, like, you know, he I don't know if he kicked him out, but Joe walked off the field, and all the Philadelphia fans were going nuts, you know.
44:58
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
44:58
SPEAKER_03: You know, I mean, yeah, and that was all you had because, like I said, the the paper didn't even talk about that the next day.
45:04
SPEAKER_03: So if it's not reinforced by 18,000 media stories, what exact what you just said, Steve, that's exactly what people would have said.
45:12
SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah, that was pretty crazy.
45:13
SPEAKER_03: Then they would just sort of move on with their lives instead of like having 14,000 hot takes about it or or Facebook posts or whatever all during the week, right?
45:24
SPEAKER_03: Oh, should Chuck Mole be fired?
45:25
SPEAKER_03: He's clearly can't control his players, and you know, that would that's where it would be today.
45:30
SPEAKER_03: But that just wasn't the world we lived in in the early 70s.
45:33
SPEAKER_03: I think also this is a product of people in Pittsburgh still at this point not really being all that invested in the Steelers because pre, I would say, immaculate reception, it's still a baseball town.
45:45
SPEAKER_03: Right.
45:45
SPEAKER_03: You know, the Pirates are good in the early 70s, the Steelers are still bad.
45:49
SPEAKER_03: So maybe no one really cares all that much if some football players acting crazy.
45:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was really was like, you know, horse racing might have been more popular, or boxing at that point than pro football, at least in Pittsburgh, which is hard to believe.
46:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
46:08
SPEAKER_00: Like even college football, even college football was probably up there.
46:12
SPEAKER_00: So it still is, but yeah, yeah.
46:15
SPEAKER_03: So so like I said, very different time.
46:17
SPEAKER_03: That's that's the first reason.
46:18
SPEAKER_03: I'd say reason number two, Joe Green was really good.
46:22
SPEAKER_03: And and not just like Pro Bowl level good, like he's literally a once-in-a-generation talent.
46:28
SPEAKER_03: And right from the get-go, he's dominating the NFL.
46:31
SPEAKER_03: He continues to do that for years.
46:33
SPEAKER_03: And and for the Steelers, right?
46:36
SPEAKER_03: This is a franchise that had nothing for 40 years.
46:38
SPEAKER_03: It's it's kind of like when Mario Lemie came to the Penguins.
46:41
SPEAKER_03: Like, finally we're relevant, and it's only because of this guy.
46:45
SPEAKER_00: And we gotta sell seats too, you know.
46:47
SPEAKER_03: We gotta sell seats too.
46:48
SPEAKER_00: That's how you made your money.
46:50
SPEAKER_00: Like, the TV contracts weren't what they were now.
46:53
SPEAKER_00: How you made your money in this sport was to sell all the stadium every week.
46:57
SPEAKER_02: Yes, that's correct.
46:59
SPEAKER_00: And you only get what are the 14 games?
47:02
SPEAKER_00: So you only get seven home games plus a couple preseasons, you know.
47:06
SPEAKER_03: You got it.
47:07
SPEAKER_03: You're absolutely right.
47:08
SPEAKER_03: And and going back to that comparison with Mario, Mario, Mario had some immature things he did his first couple of years, certainly not to the level of chasing people with scissors or anything like that.
47:19
SPEAKER_03: But you could tolerate that because he was so good.
47:22
SPEAKER_03: And I think you saw that in recent, even in recent years here too.
47:26
SPEAKER_03: Like I think Le'Veon Bell and Antonio Brown and James Harrison, guys like that, were all players who had drama on and off the field, but they were so good that it was deemed worth putting up with, as opposed to maybe more, I don't know, expendable guys.
47:41
SPEAKER_03: Like Cedric, Cedric Wilson.
47:43
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, like Cedric Wilson, exactly.
47:46
SPEAKER_03: Or, you know, a handful of other guys you could probably name.
47:49
SPEAKER_03: So I think that that factored in the fact that Joe Green was that good.
47:54
SPEAKER_03: And then I think the third reason, and this is really important, is Chuck Knoll.
47:59
SPEAKER_03: And and I I don't think we fully understand what we've had here in Pittsburgh because the NFL is a league where like a quarter of the head coaches get fired every year, and there's so many guys who come and go and who really have no idea how to manage a diverse group of 53 players.
48:17
SPEAKER_03: Right?
48:18
SPEAKER_03: You you every year, every single year, oh that guy, well, that defensive coordinator for that team, the he's so he's gonna be the next great NFL coach, and then three years later he's gone.
48:30
SPEAKER_03: Because it's just not the same thing.
48:32
SPEAKER_00: I still think Cliff Kingsbury could be a good head ally.
48:36
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, but that's that's every year there's guys like that.
48:39
SPEAKER_00: He he there's guys that are good coordinators and not great head coaches, though.
48:44
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, like I think Cliff Kingsbury probably falls into that category.
48:48
SPEAKER_00: I would say Bill Belichick fell into that category until some guy named Tom Brady came around.
48:54
SPEAKER_02: That's true.
48:55
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's true.
48:56
SPEAKER_03: And and and so there's not that many guys who can manage a team the way that Noel did.
49:03
SPEAKER_03: And I think he understood how to lead grown men, how to handle the ones who were uh we'll just say a little eccentric.
49:11
SPEAKER_03: Uh Roy Blunt Jr.
49:12
SPEAKER_03: wrote a book covering the Steelers during that time, and he said that Green was indulged more than anyone else on the team, which again, if you read that today, people would be flipping out that Noel lost control of the team or whatever.
49:26
SPEAKER_03: But I think Noel surmised that Green wasn't a bad seed.
49:30
SPEAKER_03: He was just a guy that was highly competitive and hated to lose.
49:34
SPEAKER_03: And did he handle losing well?
49:35
SPEAKER_03: Uh obviously not, but I think Noel figured that was something he could work with and that Green was worth the effort.
49:42
SPEAKER_03: And in the end, Noel was rewarded by having the greatest dynasty in the history of football.
49:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it is weird, like the techniques that Chuck Noel used and you know the stuff that stuck with him.
49:55
SPEAKER_00: And you know, he's not he he's such an underrated, like he's overrated and underrated at the same time, if that's weirdly enough.
50:02
SPEAKER_00: I think by that generation maybe he was a little overrated, but now as it's gone further, he's a little underrated or underappreciated what he did.
50:13
SPEAKER_00: As like people our age really didn't know him, and as you learn about him, you you realize, you know, you really should appreciate Chuck Knowle.
50:21
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
50:22
SPEAKER_03: And I think I think this this whole thing with Joe Green.
50:25
SPEAKER_03: I I don't know that Joe Green becomes Joe Green without Chuck Noel.
50:29
SPEAKER_03: And and Chuck Noel has this quote, he said, Everybody thinks leadership comes from how you talk, but it really comes from how you perform.
50:36
SPEAKER_03: And that was that was how Chuck Knowle believed in you know leaders.
50:41
SPEAKER_03: And and for his part, Joe Green says this.
50:43
SPEAKER_03: He says, It's hard to admit, but I clearly behaved selfishly early in my career.
50:48
SPEAKER_03: Being selfish lets your teammates down as much as it lets you down.
50:52
SPEAKER_03: Fortunately, football can help you overcome selfishness, especially when you're playing for someone like Coach Noel.
50:58
SPEAKER_03: You can yell at someone for being selfish all you want, but more often than not, that's not going to prevent them from being selfish.
51:05
SPEAKER_03: They need to see that other people's ideas and thoughts matter and that a greater result can be achieved when everyone works together and looks out for each other.
51:14
SPEAKER_03: So, Steve, kind of like what you said before about that kind of getting people to see the results of their actions instead of just yelling and screaming at them.
51:22
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think, yeah, and sometimes that's all people hear is yelling and they don't hear the message, they just see the way it was delivered.
51:30
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes people need that, that like the shot like when there's complacency, then you need somebody to go wild and yell and act a little crazy.
51:40
SPEAKER_00: And you know, maybe you know that helped because I'm sure the Steelers were complacent when he came because you know they had never won anything.
51:48
SPEAKER_00: Like you said in what '72 to one year or '71, they're competing for the first playoff since 1947.
51:55
SPEAKER_00: You know, they 47, 57, 60, that's over 20 years without a playoff.
52:03
SPEAKER_03: Yep.
52:04
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I think I think I think you're right.
52:06
SPEAKER_03: I think that I think any kind of yelling, screaming, or any of that stuff, that that could work as like a short-term, a very short-term fix.
52:14
SPEAKER_03: Right.
52:14
SPEAKER_03: But long term it's not going to do anything.
52:16
SPEAKER_03: And I think people make people tune it out.
52:18
SPEAKER_00: People tune it out after a while.
52:20
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
52:20
SPEAKER_03: And and you make them, especially if you have kids, you know, you think like when when a kid's three years old, you can do that.
52:26
SPEAKER_03: You will not do that.
52:27
SPEAKER_03: You'll go to your room and then the kid gets scared and and corrects their behavior.
52:32
SPEAKER_03: But that doesn't work on adults.
52:34
SPEAKER_03: It just doesn't.
52:34
SPEAKER_03: And you can threaten people with being fired and all that stuff.
52:37
SPEAKER_03: But all that does is get them to maybe uh uh clean it up enough to not get whatever the punishment is, it doesn't transform their attitude.
52:47
SPEAKER_03: And in the case of Noel, he got Green to really just change his general outlook attitude, behavior, everything.
52:55
SPEAKER_03: And that's the reason the Steelers became the Steelers.
52:59
SPEAKER_00: And it goes back to what you said, Green wanted to win.
53:02
SPEAKER_00: You know, yes.
53:03
SPEAKER_00: And he could direct that.
53:05
SPEAKER_00: Once he could direct that in the appropriate way, that the Steelers won and they won a lot.
53:10
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
53:11
SPEAKER_03: I think it's also interesting what he says about football can help you overcome selfishness.
53:16
SPEAKER_03: And I I don't think we I think we tend to not give people that opportunity today that are playing for the Steelers or anybody else.
53:24
SPEAKER_03: I mean, we see a guy who's young.
53:25
SPEAKER_03: You know, George Pickens is a good example.
53:27
SPEAKER_03: I don't know what is going to end up happening with George Pickens, but you have a guy that's in his early 20s who maybe is a little immature or does things that are selfish.
53:35
SPEAKER_03: There is a chance that guys like that could overcome that and and and maybe see things differently the way Joe Green did.
53:43
SPEAKER_03: And I feel like we're such a reactive culture in general that we just don't even think that that's possible.
53:49
SPEAKER_03: Like that guy's done.
53:51
SPEAKER_03: Get him out of here.
53:52
SPEAKER_03: It's not gonna work.
53:53
SPEAKER_03: Uh and maybe it won't.
53:55
SPEAKER_03: And maybe you do need to cut that cord at some point with guys like that.
53:59
SPEAKER_03: But but boy, I'm glad they didn't do that with Joe Green.
54:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, at some point, you know, you the trouble you cause isn't worth the talent you bring.
54:09
SPEAKER_00: You know, when when those cross over, those are the guys that normally get cut, like Deontay Johnson.
54:17
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
54:17
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
54:19
SPEAKER_03: So yeah, I thought I just thought that was interesting thinking about Joe Green, thinking about how that would have played out today.
54:24
SPEAKER_03: Because it just would have played out so so differently in the media with the fans and everything.
54:29
SPEAKER_03: Uh fortunately for Joe Green and fortunately for the Steelers, this played out in an era where uh things were just a little bit different.
54:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he he he kind of reminds me of the Dominican Sue.
54:40
SPEAKER_00: I meant to mention that.
54:41
SPEAKER_00: Like he very talented, but like did a lot of like you know, sketchy stuff.
54:48
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I think I think Sue's a good comparison because that guy was highly competitive, and I think a lot of what he did came from he really wanted to win.
54:57
SPEAKER_03: Right.
54:58
SPEAKER_03: Right.
54:58
SPEAKER_03: But then you could say everybody really wants to win, and the rest of the players control their emotions, right?
55:02
SPEAKER_03: So uh again, I the the mix of the era and Go Green being as good as he was and Chuck Knoll being there, uh really allowed, you know, despite all that stuff, Joe Green was still allowed to be Go Green.
55:17
SPEAKER_03: And and again, like I said, the city and the team uh obviously benefited from it for the long term.
55:24
SPEAKER_03: So thanks everybody for tuning in.
55:26
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55:29
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55:34
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55:36
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55:42
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55:44
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