Latest / Monero Talk / Profits Over Justice: The Disturbing Crypto Prosecution of Roman Sterlingov w/ Michael Hassard & Tor Ekeland #Monerotopia23
Transcript
- 1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:22,879 [Applause] 2 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:22,879 [Music] 3 00:00:23,039 --> 00:00:28,160 next up we have Mike and Tor think we 4 00:00:26,119 --> 00:00:34,239 are your slides up here Mike and T work 5 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:37,520 for a law firm that is defending 6 00:00:34,239 --> 00:00:39,280 the guy who was running uh Bitcoin fog 7 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:43,200 it was a it was the Bitcoin 8 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:48,199 mixer and uh they they have come 9 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:50,000 to realize that chain analysis and the 10 00:00:48,199 --> 00:00:53,960 chain analysis 11 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:56,079 ecosystem may not be looking out for all 12 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:58,559 of our best interests so they're they're 13 00:00:56,079 --> 00:01:00,000 going to be doing a a fantastic talk on 14 00:00:58,559 --> 00:01:03,680 that and then we're also going to have 15 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:05,119 them on the Chain analysis panel which I 16 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:07,479 I think is tomorrow I think that's 17 00:01:05,119 --> 00:01:09,600 tomorrow so guys come on up really 18 00:01:07,479 --> 00:01:12,280 appreciate it guys like I said if you 19 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:13,759 get that cup you get coffee all weekend 20 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:16,320 you're gonna need it you're gonna need 21 00:01:13,759 --> 00:01:19,400 the all you can drink coffee I guarantee 22 00:01:16,320 --> 00:01:20,799 it uh this is gonna be Marathon uh thank 23 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:22,920 you guys take it away do we have two 24 00:01:20,799 --> 00:01:25,240 working microphones how how do you guys 25 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:25,240 want to do 26 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:31,840 it all right y 27 00:01:35,799 --> 00:01:39,240 hey everybody thank you for coming out 28 00:01:37,079 --> 00:01:41,320 tonight to hear this important case and 29 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:43,159 first off I'd like to clear something up 30 00:01:41,320 --> 00:01:44,759 Doug said that he uh he was the operator 31 00:01:43,159 --> 00:01:48,119 of Bitcoin fog I'd like to say that he 32 00:01:44,759 --> 00:01:50,520 was not the operator of Bitcoin fog this 33 00:01:48,119 --> 00:01:53,439 story is how an innocent user of a 34 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:54,759 mixing service can get caught up in the 35 00:01:53,439 --> 00:01:57,079 apparatus of the United States 36 00:01:54,759 --> 00:02:00,000 government courtesy of chainalysis and 37 00:01:57,079 --> 00:02:02,759 wind up in an absolute Kafka s nightmare 38 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:04,159 my name is Mike Hazard this is tor Ean 39 00:02:02,759 --> 00:02:08,000 the story about Roman 40 00:02:04,159 --> 00:02:10,920 Sterling and um there's not a single 41 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:12,480 piece of evidence nothing in anything 42 00:02:10,920 --> 00:02:15,800 that we've been given by the United 43 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:19,879 States government that ever shows Roman 44 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:22,280 Sterling off operating BL so how did we 45 00:02:19,879 --> 00:02:25,519 get here um 46 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:28,040 this starts from 2003 when Roman 47 00:02:25,519 --> 00:02:31,640 Sterling off was 14 years old and he 48 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:34,519 moves from Russia to Sweden with his mom 49 00:02:31,640 --> 00:02:35,680 leaving his dad behind and I mentioned 50 00:02:34,519 --> 00:02:38,599 that because the United States 51 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:41,360 government was for a while obsessed with 52 00:02:38,599 --> 00:02:43,920 Roman being a Russian and everything in 53 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:46,319 this case was Russian this Russian that 54 00:02:43,920 --> 00:02:48,640 and this case actually starts at the 55 00:02:46,319 --> 00:02:50,640 national security desk in Philadelphia 56 00:02:48,640 --> 00:02:52,840 the Russian 57 00:02:50,640 --> 00:02:55,800 division but jump forward a little bit 58 00:02:52,840 --> 00:03:01,760 to about 200920 Roman is an early 59 00:02:55,800 --> 00:03:01,760 adopter of Bitcoin um in January 1st 20 60 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:18,519 akti now akti omu means happy new year 61 00:03:17,640 --> 00:03:20,959 in 62 00:03:18,519 --> 00:03:22,799 Japanese and this is the pseudonym that 63 00:03:20,959 --> 00:03:25,799 was used for the creator of Bitcoin fog 64 00:03:22,799 --> 00:03:28,159 to promote his new mixing service on the 65 00:03:25,799 --> 00:03:29,799 Bitcoin talk forms and it's ACR of the 66 00:03:28,159 --> 00:03:32,519 evidence that the government uses the 67 00:03:29,799 --> 00:03:34,920 say that Aku is communicating and 68 00:03:32,519 --> 00:03:38,360 sharing knowledge with the darket 69 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:41,159 marketplaces darket very scary right 70 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:43,040 like a Goro Silk Road and the like this 71 00:03:41,159 --> 00:03:44,239 is where the criminality comes from the 72 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:48,680 mixing 73 00:03:44,239 --> 00:03:51,280 services so one thing about Amo his name 74 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:55,079 I'm never gonna remember blow that at 75 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:56,879 trial um that's happy news in Japanese 76 00:03:55,079 --> 00:04:00,640 you might notice that there's some Mount 77 00:03:56,879 --> 00:04:01,920 gaau accounts up there well Roman 78 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:05,200 because early on there's really no 79 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:09,720 exchanges he's he gets a m Mount GA 80 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:13,760 account early on they're taking all of 81 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:15,680 their like IP address matches saying 82 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:19,359 that basically what they say is that he 83 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:21,519 used the same IP address as the shint 84 00:04:19,359 --> 00:04:23,440 hotmail.com email address which actually 85 00:04:21,519 --> 00:04:25,680 if you look at the Microsoft search War 86 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:27,919 returns registered in someone else's 87 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:30,240 name a person named Andrew White in San 88 00:04:27,919 --> 00:04:33,520 Francisco who did the crypto 89 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:34,960 and there's all this stuff in in in Sky 90 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:37,560 throughout case you have evidence 91 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:40,880 pointing to other people but the 92 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:43,600 investigation be with Roman as a Target 93 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:45,840 and the confirmation bias perpetrates 94 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:46,960 and lies throughout the investigation 95 00:04:45,840 --> 00:04:49,400 pain the 96 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:51,560 investigation so Mount goau which 97 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:54,759 everybody probably knows is run out of 98 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:56,320 Japan and was run by somebody named Mark 99 00:04:54,759 --> 00:04:59,600 carpus 100 00:04:56,320 --> 00:05:03,600 um Mark carpus interestingly enough is 101 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:07,400 is um arrested in Japan and convicted 102 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:09,160 for um falsifying mount gox data so 103 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:12,080 mount gax data we have in this case is 104 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:13,600 all on spreadsheets and we read if 105 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:15,280 you're familiar with Andy Greenberg's 106 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:18,280 book that just came out tracers on the 107 00:05:15,280 --> 00:05:21,000 dark the global hunt for the crime Lords 108 00:05:18,280 --> 00:05:23,639 of cryptocurrency some crap like that um 109 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:26,560 in it there's a story about r g 110 00:05:23,639 --> 00:05:29,919 everyone's favorite firm Jan Allison 111 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:33,120 because this place is very much the 112 00:05:29,919 --> 00:05:36,160 story of CH analysis is rise and how 113 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:39,440 they go from a company with a zero 114 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:41,039 dollar relation to the Black Box 115 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:45,319 government surveillance firm they are 116 00:05:41,039 --> 00:05:48,479 today with an 8.6 billion doll valuation 117 00:05:45,319 --> 00:05:51,720 in 2014 Michael Groner is over in Japan 118 00:05:48,479 --> 00:05:54,560 he's working on the mount go hacks and 119 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:57,280 um Mark capis who the government just 120 00:05:54,560 --> 00:06:00,680 refused to sub for today 121 00:05:57,280 --> 00:06:03,680 um gives Michael grer a thumb drive of 122 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:05,840 all the mount go data Michael grer looks 123 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:07,080 at it it says there's missing files here 124 00:06:05,840 --> 00:06:11,759 there's files that have been deleted 125 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:13,400 this data is corrupt and he says what's 126 00:06:11,759 --> 00:06:15,160 up with this do you what's up with this 127 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:16,960 and he oh yeah our servers got hacked 128 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:19,680 they physically got access and Michael 129 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:22,880 gruner asks him do you have a backup of 130 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:27,960 the data and he says 131 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:31,880 no okay well this mount gaau 132 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:33,720 data almost the entire prod of the 133 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:37,360 government's because that's what they 134 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:39,240 use to say that Roman is using to talkit 135 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:44,120 talk and 136 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:46,759 when when this Amad am whatever Happy 137 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:49,199 New Year's on he's talk he talks about 138 00:06:46,759 --> 00:06:53,080 running Bitcoin TR and how they keep 139 00:06:49,199 --> 00:06:55,520 silver logs how he's got a whole staff 140 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:57,400 they do all sorts of stuff well you 141 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:59,599 guessed it there's no server logs in 142 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:01,800 this case there's nothing there's no 143 00:06:59,599 --> 00:07:03,919 servers there's no 144 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:06,639 Communications there's nothing we're a 145 00:07:03,919 --> 00:07:09,440 little bit mystified how they even 146 00:07:06,639 --> 00:07:11,560 called in on Roman like one of our 147 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:13,560 guesses is that Maris is trying to throw 148 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:16,560 somebody under the bus and just like 149 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:19,039 grab somebody randomly from out gox well 150 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:20,759 it does appear it does appear that the 151 00:07:19,039 --> 00:07:23,520 investigation started with a Target on 152 00:07:20,759 --> 00:07:26,520 Roman's back because this investigation 153 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:28,599 starts at the Philadelphia desk of the 154 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:30,039 Russia Security Office of the United 155 00:07:28,599 --> 00:07:32,720 States 156 00:07:30,039 --> 00:07:34,319 the agent on that case who initiated it 157 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:37,800 and sent the intelligence love to the 158 00:07:34,319 --> 00:07:40,319 FBI internet targeting investigation for 159 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:42,080 money Laing criminal Enterprise money 160 00:07:40,319 --> 00:07:44,560 and listing Roman as one of the people 161 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:46,280 who they think might have done it would 162 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:50,319 set up and and set around by a woman 163 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:54,319 named Katherine helker now this is in 164 00:07:50,319 --> 00:07:57,159 2014 now in 2023 cther pelker is the 165 00:07:54,319 --> 00:07:58,759 lead prosecutor on this case so this 166 00:07:57,159 --> 00:08:00,080 puts us in an interesting position 167 00:07:58,759 --> 00:08:03,039 because in the United States you can't 168 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:05,159 call a prosecutor as a witness you have 169 00:08:03,039 --> 00:08:07,400 a right to call an FBI agent who's your 170 00:08:05,159 --> 00:08:10,199 accuser under the Sixth Amendment as a 171 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:13,000 witness so what happens with a person 172 00:08:10,199 --> 00:08:15,440 who original and originating FBI officer 173 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:17,440 your accuser who then goes to the law 174 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:19,800 school where the case is transferred to 175 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:21,400 to Washington she went to Georgetown and 176 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:24,800 then she gets submitted as a lawyer and 177 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:26,240 becomes a prosecutor on this case Cas is 178 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:29,840 her baby and she's been building her 179 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:32,519 career on this on the back of an men so 180 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:34,680 in the United States you you can't you 181 00:08:32,519 --> 00:08:36,479 represent somebody as a lawyer in a case 182 00:08:34,680 --> 00:08:38,560 that you're material fact 183 00:08:36,479 --> 00:08:40,880 witnessing every I've been doing 184 00:08:38,560 --> 00:08:43,000 computer law for 10 years uh defending 185 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:44,920 people accused of computer crimes in 186 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:47,200 Federal Criminal Court and in every 187 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:49,640 single case I've had I have 188 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:52,160 cross-examined the FBI agent who 189 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:54,120 investigated the case so kathern Alden 190 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:57,120 pelker who is now the lead prosecutor on 191 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:59,560 this case was the originating FBI 192 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:01,959 investigative agent and so when we first 193 00:08:59,560 --> 00:09:04,360 met with the government uh I looked at 194 00:09:01,959 --> 00:09:06,959 her and I said you can't be a prosecutor 195 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:09,160 on this case you're a material fact 196 00:09:06,959 --> 00:09:13,079 witness and she just looked at me and 197 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:14,680 said no no and I don't know what to say 198 00:09:13,079 --> 00:09:16,240 to that so right now there like a big 199 00:09:14,680 --> 00:09:19,920 battle about whether or not she's even 200 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:23,519 gonna uh testify but it's just one of 201 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:26,279 the like really the numerous insane 202 00:09:23,519 --> 00:09:28,279 things about this case and it goes on 203 00:09:26,279 --> 00:09:30,720 and on there's so many things like this 204 00:09:28,279 --> 00:09:32,279 that just do not add up other than the 205 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,320 fact that everybody involved with it 206 00:09:32,279 --> 00:09:37,040 from the prosecutors the government 207 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:38,640 agents to chainalysis have been doing 208 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:40,200 this entire and conducting this entire 209 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:42,519 investigation and prosecution with 210 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:45,279 dollar signs and stars in their eyes 211 00:09:42,519 --> 00:09:46,839 yeah so chain analysis comes in in 2015 212 00:09:45,279 --> 00:09:48,800 this is one of the first cases that they 213 00:09:46,839 --> 00:09:50,120 ever work on and if you know anything 214 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:52,040 about chain analysis the way that 215 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:54,120 they've made their money essentially 216 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:55,880 they've built relationships with the 217 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:58,320 United States Department of Justice 218 00:09:55,880 --> 00:10:00,720 which has a $44 billion budget and the 219 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:05,000 serious crime office in the UK which has 220 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:07,360 a a similarly huge budget and so you see 221 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:09,760 them working on this case but one of the 222 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:11,560 interesting things to me is they're 223 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:14,560 working on this case they're working the 224 00:10:11,560 --> 00:10:16,600 relationships um it starts with Treasury 225 00:10:14,560 --> 00:10:18,959 and it goes from Treasury and the IRS 226 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:21,079 over to the FBI because helker brings it 227 00:10:18,959 --> 00:10:23,200 over there is that they're talking to 228 00:10:21,079 --> 00:10:25,519 Andy Greenberg and basically the press 229 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:27,440 the entire time which is a big no no on 230 00:10:25,519 --> 00:10:30,079 appending shal criminal investigation 231 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:34,120 this has not gone to trial yet goes to 232 00:10:30,079 --> 00:10:38,399 trial in September and 233 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:40,160 um when wman is finally arrested in 2021 234 00:10:38,399 --> 00:10:42,320 after what is like seven years of 235 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:45,279 Investigation oh by the way they uh in 236 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:47,560 2017 Roman goes to the United States he 237 00:10:45,279 --> 00:10:49,920 goes to Miami with his girlfriend they 238 00:10:47,560 --> 00:10:52,920 put him under physical surveillance you 239 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:54,480 know they put him under wir tap and then 240 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:56,000 they do something called a pen trap 241 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:58,680 which is where they they catch all your 242 00:10:56,000 --> 00:11:00,560 internet signal traffic you know what 243 00:10:58,680 --> 00:11:03,880 evidence they got there of him operating 244 00:11:00,560 --> 00:11:06,399 Bitcoin fog nothing absolutely nothing 245 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:08,320 so fast forward to 2021 when they decide 246 00:11:06,399 --> 00:11:09,959 to arrest him at the 247 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:12,920 airport 248 00:11:09,959 --> 00:11:15,839 um doj always does press releases when 249 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:17,800 they arrest somebody but before the doj 250 00:11:15,839 --> 00:11:19,480 press release comes out uh the Wired 251 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:20,639 Magazine runs an exclusive because 252 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:22,560 they've all been talking to Andy 253 00:11:20,639 --> 00:11:26,040 Greenberg because they've all got stars 254 00:11:22,560 --> 00:11:29,240 in their eyes and that press release 255 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:31,680 features Jonathan Lan who's can't 256 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:35,120 remember he Co or CTO co-founder of 257 00:11:31,680 --> 00:11:36,440 chainalysis Michael grer and Coy even 258 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:39,480 though that chain Alys has been working 259 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:40,639 on this case since 2015 he doesn't say 260 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,120 oh you know this is a victory for 261 00:11:40,639 --> 00:11:44,279 chainalysis he doesn't even mention that 262 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:46,920 chainalysis has been working on the case 263 00:11:44,279 --> 00:11:51,639 what he says is this proves that this 264 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:54,760 type of blockchain forensics Works about 265 00:11:51,639 --> 00:11:57,959 uh four weeks later they do a Series E 266 00:11:54,760 --> 00:12:01,839 fundraising around for $150 million and 267 00:11:57,959 --> 00:12:04,160 if you look at doj press releases and 268 00:12:01,839 --> 00:12:05,880 you match them up with chainalysis 269 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:08,360 fundraising rounds you see that there's 270 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:10,560 a correlation right and if you're a 271 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:13,720 company this is kind of obvious that is 272 00:12:10,560 --> 00:12:16,880 trying to sell software uh tracing 273 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:18,199 software to a big client like the United 274 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:21,279 States government you're not going to 275 00:12:18,199 --> 00:12:23,639 sell any if you're not successful so I 276 00:12:21,279 --> 00:12:25,560 think one of the key problems with this 277 00:12:23,639 --> 00:12:27,720 case is that the profit motive has 278 00:12:25,560 --> 00:12:30,320 distorted everything in it and they've 279 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:34,560 just turned their eyes away from 280 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:36,240 anything that contracts them and I think 281 00:12:34,560 --> 00:12:37,519 they thought that when they arrested him 282 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:39,639 or at some point they would find 283 00:12:37,519 --> 00:12:42,240 evidence that he was operating bitcorn 284 00:12:39,639 --> 00:12:44,240 jog but they've absolutely absolutely 285 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:47,279 failed in that they've fallen on their 286 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:49,440 face every single time when Romans in 287 00:12:47,279 --> 00:12:51,560 Miami in 2017 they have them under 288 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:54,519 pentra they have them under surveillance 289 00:12:51,560 --> 00:12:56,440 they fly nothing when Roman lands in LAX 290 00:12:54,519 --> 00:12:58,199 and sees all of his computers they get 291 00:12:56,440 --> 00:13:00,079 his backup codes for his crypto accounts 292 00:12:58,199 --> 00:13:03,120 they have a h huge bag with all of his 293 00:13:00,079 --> 00:13:05,480 hard drives in it nothing and you see 294 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:06,880 this in the discovery every time the 295 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:08,079 government thinks they're gonna make 296 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:09,360 something you know if they think they're 297 00:13:08,079 --> 00:13:11,160 gonna find something they're gonna find 298 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:14,240 the golden knife to be able to prove 299 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:16,880 that he ran Bitcoin fog they fall flat 300 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:18,560 on their face and it's repeated times in 301 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:20,279 the discovery where we have agents 302 00:13:18,560 --> 00:13:21,720 working on the case particularly a 303 00:13:20,279 --> 00:13:24,680 character named Aaron 304 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:27,000 BCE and every time they fall on the face 305 00:13:24,680 --> 00:13:30,320 you know and he starts to question do we 306 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:33,720 have the wrong guy investigation 307 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:35,959 misguided well yes it is but they 308 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:38,160 continue anyways because this book is 309 00:13:35,959 --> 00:13:41,560 being made because they're getting jobs 310 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:43,920 at analysis and it just goes on and on 311 00:13:41,560 --> 00:13:45,560 and on and and the victim of this entire 312 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:47,639 insestuous relationship between CH 313 00:13:45,560 --> 00:13:50,160 analysis and the federal government has 314 00:13:47,639 --> 00:13:52,240 resulted in an innocent man being locked 315 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:54,759 up pre-trial for over two years waiting 316 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:57,759 his day of Court eron Bice is one of my 317 00:13:54,759 --> 00:13:59,560 favorite parts of this case and the the 318 00:13:57,759 --> 00:14:02,800 the the doubt that he was expressing 319 00:13:59,560 --> 00:14:04,759 that Michael's talking about see him he 320 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:07,800 he there there he's like oh my God you 321 00:14:04,759 --> 00:14:09,240 know what if what if what long here what 322 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:11,480 if it's this other person that we're 323 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:13,839 looking at has a lot of I'm not gonna 324 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:14,839 look at it I'm not gonna look at and he 325 00:14:13,839 --> 00:14:16,279 does something else it's very 326 00:14:14,839 --> 00:14:18,360 interesting and I've never seen in AAL 327 00:14:16,279 --> 00:14:20,240 criminal Kings before he's working for 328 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:25,399 the IRS as a criminal investigator and 329 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:28,000 he starts a private company called exit 330 00:14:25,399 --> 00:14:29,600 LLC and it works on this case and we 331 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,680 can't find any contracts they're not 332 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:33,920 giving us any information on it but when 333 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:34,880 Wellman's arrested and the press release 334 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:37,920 comes 335 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:39,600 out uh the Press relas thanks all these 336 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:41,680 government agencies all these you blah 337 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:43,839 blah blah blah blah at the top of the 338 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:45,839 thank yous like you know idle page 339 00:14:43,839 --> 00:14:50,399 billing as they would say in the theater 340 00:14:45,839 --> 00:14:51,839 um it thanks exent LLC well guess what 341 00:14:50,399 --> 00:14:54,519 happens five months afterwards 342 00:14:51,839 --> 00:14:56,880 chainalysis bies exent they're an 343 00:14:54,519 --> 00:14:58,680 undisclosed sum which we think is 344 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:01,240 probably millions of dollars and exent 345 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:02,839 now has a $10 million web stream and uh 346 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:07,480 from the United States government and 347 00:15:02,839 --> 00:15:10,360 chenis has about a $330 million Revenue 348 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:12,600 stream and it's worth 8.6 billion 349 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:15,440 dollars as the last accounting and 350 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:17,240 chainal is also hires one of the 351 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:20,720 prosecutors on this case who is another 352 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:24,160 senior legal and lier Julie 353 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:25,360 Le so going back to what kind of 354 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:27,040 evidence is the government building 355 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:30,160 their case on they're claiming that 356 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:33,680 Roman in 2011 Reg the domain name to the 357 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:35,160 Bitcoin fog.com website not illegal and 358 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:37,040 the statute of limitations on what 359 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,639 they're they're charging them with is 360 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:40,519 five years so it's six years outside of 361 00:15:38,639 --> 00:15:43,880 the statute of limitations even if 362 00:15:40,519 --> 00:15:46,000 somehow you construe it as illegal which 363 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:47,240 I don't understand how you could um the 364 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:49,480 other thing they're saying he did is 365 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:52,839 they're saying that he sent some 366 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:55,079 transactions uh to bitcoin fog like 367 00:15:52,839 --> 00:15:57,839 they're calling them beta transactions 368 00:15:55,079 --> 00:16:01,160 before uh the coin fog was announced to 369 00:15:57,839 --> 00:16:03,440 the public in oer 2011 but uh the 370 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:05,079 tracing on that a complete [ __ ] mess 371 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:08,000 and everybody who youve had look at it 372 00:16:05,079 --> 00:16:09,319 says this just not interesting we're 373 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:10,920 working with some very competent 374 00:16:09,319 --> 00:16:12,759 blockchain experts and every time they 375 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:13,880 take a look at the evidence in this case 376 00:16:12,759 --> 00:16:16,800 and every time they take a look at the 377 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:17,959 work analysis is done they're coming up 378 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:19,839 to us and they're saying this is 379 00:16:17,959 --> 00:16:23,279 ridiculous this is completely false this 380 00:16:19,839 --> 00:16:24,560 is misguided this is not correct and so 381 00:16:23,279 --> 00:16:27,279 the 382 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:30,880 other piece of evidence that they say 383 00:16:27,279 --> 00:16:32,399 that they have is in 2014 Roman he's 384 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:33,680 been working for a Swedish marketing 385 00:16:32,399 --> 00:16:35,759 company right he works for this 386 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:38,560 marketing company uh doing internet 387 00:16:35,759 --> 00:16:41,279 stuff uh bitcoin's appreciating enough 388 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:45,279 so he can quit his job so he quits his 389 00:16:41,279 --> 00:16:46,399 job and um he is a user of Bitcoin fog 390 00:16:45,279 --> 00:16:48,600 because somebody tells him at one of the 391 00:16:46,399 --> 00:16:50,639 meetups you should do this for privacy 392 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:52,560 and security concerns and even 393 00:16:50,639 --> 00:16:54,600 chainalysis and let this report CH 394 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:56,639 analysis has this report that says 90% 395 00:16:54,600 --> 00:17:00,240 of people who use mixers use them for 396 00:16:56,639 --> 00:17:02,560 legitimate privacy reasons so he takes 397 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:04,839 the the the Bitcoin he's accumulated 398 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:07,240 right and Bitcoin that he bought with 399 00:17:04,839 --> 00:17:09,039 his paycheck which the government knew 400 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:11,199 nothing about his job or anything his 401 00:17:09,039 --> 00:17:12,640 paycheck which is like bizarre too 402 00:17:11,199 --> 00:17:14,799 basically this entire there's no 403 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:16,240 eyewitnesses in this case everything in 404 00:17:14,799 --> 00:17:18,959 this case is people sitting in a desk 405 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:21,000 6,000 miles away from Sweden so he 406 00:17:18,959 --> 00:17:24,679 starts coming some of that money and 407 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:27,799 putting it to a kyc kraken account it 408 00:17:24,679 --> 00:17:30,520 has his name it has his ID and he starts 409 00:17:27,799 --> 00:17:32,039 to inst as his regular crypto account he 410 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:33,960 had Consolidated all the different 411 00:17:32,039 --> 00:17:36,080 wallets that he had put them through 412 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:38,039 Bitcoin fog and into his Kraken account 413 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:40,840 between 2014 414 00:17:38,039 --> 00:17:43,039 2015 now this Kraken account was seized 415 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:44,840 by the US government and they refused to 416 00:17:43,039 --> 00:17:46,480 give it up to him to pay for his lawyers 417 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:48,360 this is the whole other part of the the 418 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:50,120 case so this cracken account the 419 00:17:48,360 --> 00:17:52,000 government is saying because it came 420 00:17:50,120 --> 00:17:53,880 from Bitcoin fog and we can say it show 421 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,400 you to the chainalysis reactor software 422 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:58,080 that it came from the Bitcoin fla 423 00:17:55,400 --> 00:18:01,120 cluster like what's a cluster right 424 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:02,159 cluster [ __ ] if you ask me and uh 425 00:18:01,120 --> 00:18:04,919 they're saying that because he sent his 426 00:18:02,159 --> 00:18:07,400 money through Bitcoin fog that that's 427 00:18:04,919 --> 00:18:09,320 per that he was getting the service fees 428 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:12,159 now take a look at how much money was 429 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:13,760 going through Bitcoin fog it's net worth 430 00:18:12,159 --> 00:18:15,799 the amount of money that's in that kyc 431 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:19,840 Kraken account should be astronomical 432 00:18:15,799 --> 00:18:22,080 over 96 billion dollar you knowly modest 433 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:23,799 it's less than $2 million and he and got 434 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,880 it because Bitcoin had appreciated from 435 00:18:23,799 --> 00:18:27,880 2011 through 436 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:29,360 20145 now when you take a look at the 437 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:31,559 nature of the cing account look at the 438 00:18:29,360 --> 00:18:33,200 transactions on it you can see that it 439 00:18:31,559 --> 00:18:34,799 very clearly shows somebody who is 440 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:37,039 living off the appreciation of their 441 00:18:34,799 --> 00:18:39,120 wealth at the beginning there's some 442 00:18:37,039 --> 00:18:40,919 deposits in deposit deposit deposit 443 00:18:39,120 --> 00:18:42,520 deposit right and then you can see him 444 00:18:40,919 --> 00:18:43,960 when he quits his job start withdrawing 445 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:46,400 from it he starts living off for that 446 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:48,280 Bitcoin and the appreciation when when 447 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:50,600 the amet starts to go down a little bit 448 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:52,120 around 2017 and he's not accumulating 449 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:53,799 any more Bitcoin he starts to get 450 00:18:52,120 --> 00:18:55,840 worried you know he's like he starts 451 00:18:53,799 --> 00:18:58,520 trading it and then around 2017 you 452 00:18:55,840 --> 00:19:00,280 start to see the trades right so all the 453 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:02,360 evidence is completely consistent with 454 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:04,039 Roman's story that he had put his own 455 00:19:02,360 --> 00:19:06,799 money into the Kraken account and was 456 00:19:04,039 --> 00:19:08,880 living off of it now in his trading is 457 00:19:06,799 --> 00:19:11,080 working out he begins a couple of 458 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:13,480 businesses he starts a music studio in 459 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:16,440 his hometown of Gothenburg Sweden he 460 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:18,919 starts a VPN business with servers in 461 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:20,720 Romania and the government found out 462 00:19:18,919 --> 00:19:22,720 about these servers and it's one of 463 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:24,840 those moments in the case where the 464 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:27,159 government Falls flat on its base once 465 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:28,760 again they go to Romania they seize the 466 00:19:27,159 --> 00:19:29,919 servers you can see in their indications 467 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:32,080 they're all excited they're like we're 468 00:19:29,919 --> 00:19:33,640 going to get the Bitcoin Fox Serv we're 469 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:36,280 going to be able to prove that he 470 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:39,559 operated Bitcoin fog and then it comes 471 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:41,880 back with the the relatively lame VPN uh 472 00:19:39,559 --> 00:19:44,640 business it kind of go anywhere and once 473 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:47,360 again the government just Falls B on 474 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:49,919 space so how do we end up with Roman 475 00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:53,840 sitting in jail for two and a half years 476 00:19:49,919 --> 00:19:56,480 awaiting trial in Washington DC a town 477 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:59,080 where he's never set foot in he's never 478 00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:00,799 done business in and he's got no family 479 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,960 and friends in and this is where 480 00:20:00,799 --> 00:20:05,039 everybody in this room who's involved 481 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:07,520 with any kind of digital currency this 482 00:20:05,039 --> 00:20:10,640 is where you should be worried is scary 483 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:13,440 because it could be anybody in this road 484 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:15,080 what they do is they decide in 2019 485 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:17,960 after spending millions of this 486 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:20,720 investigation and going nowhere they 487 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:23,880 decide some IRS agents decide all right 488 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:27,280 we're going to go mix some government 489 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:28,880 Bitcoin or Bitcoin fog from Washington 490 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:30,640 DC so they 491 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:32,480 they interact with whatever the Bitcoin 492 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:34,159 what they think is Bitcoin fog help desk 493 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:37,000 or whatever they send a message that's 494 00:20:34,159 --> 00:20:39,240 basically like oh hi I we like to laer 495 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:41,520 some drug money we just sold some Molly 496 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:46,039 is your mixing site a really good site 497 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:48,880 to mix this drug money on no response 498 00:20:46,039 --> 00:20:51,960 they mixed the money uh they put it back 499 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:52,760 in the government wallet and two years 500 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:56,760 go 501 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:58,880 by and uh the government gets an alert 502 00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:01,000 that Roman who is now concerned about 503 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:04,000 his future because of the volatility of 504 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:05,520 Bitcoin and decides that okay you know 505 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:08,320 he's turning when he's like 30 turning 506 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:10,440 30 like I need to get a backup career or 507 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:12,320 something in case you know everything 508 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,799 falls apart so we decided this K to 509 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:16,159 become he wants to become a commercial 510 00:21:13,799 --> 00:21:18,400 airline pilot so he signs up for a 511 00:21:16,159 --> 00:21:21,679 flight school intensive in 512 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:23,080 California he flies to California he 513 00:21:21,679 --> 00:21:25,559 lands at 514 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:27,039 LAX FBI agents are walking down the 515 00:21:25,559 --> 00:21:28,320 aisle on the plane and you know he 516 00:21:27,039 --> 00:21:30,760 doesn't think it's for him of of course 517 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:32,840 when they get to his seat Roman will he 518 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:34,840 come with us you know put the cuffs on 519 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:36,559 him take him to a back room and LAX and 520 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:39,520 start accusing him all these crimes that 521 00:21:36,559 --> 00:21:42,480 he's committed he's like what the [ __ ] 522 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:44,559 what the [ __ ] is this you know and all 523 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:46,400 of this was based on these government 524 00:21:44,559 --> 00:21:48,760 transactions these IRS transactions 525 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:51,320 because the United States is trying to 526 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:55,039 expand its jurisdiction for criminal 527 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:56,799 charges through the internet globally 528 00:21:55,039 --> 00:21:58,720 they're saying that they interact with 529 00:21:56,799 --> 00:22:00,000 your website they're sitting in DC and 530 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:03,159 you happen to be flying to the United 531 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:06,120 States that they can take you arrest you 532 00:22:03,159 --> 00:22:06,120 and put you on trial in 533 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:16,080 DC do you love coffee and Monera as much 534 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:18,400 as we do consider making gratuitous dorg 535 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:20,520 your daily cup pay with Monera for 536 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,840 premium fresh beans and if you like what 537 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:25,279 you taste send a digital cash tip 538 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:27,720 directly to the farmers that made it 539 00:22:25,279 --> 00:22:28,520 possible use Monera to buy gifts this 540 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:30,360 year 541 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:33,760 everyone has coffee drinkers on their 542 00:22:30,360 --> 00:22:38,760 list for limited time only get 10% off 543 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:41,159 of 3 6 and 12mth gratuit us.org coffee 544 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:44,330 subscriptions proceeds help us grow this 545 00:22:41,159 --> 00:22:47,480 channel gratuitous and 546 00:22:44,330 --> 00:22:47,480 [Music] 547 00:22:50,159 --> 00:22:54,600 Monero and that's a little 548 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:57,360 constitutionally problematic very 549 00:22:54,600 --> 00:23:00,720 constitutionally problematic for an US 550 00:22:57,360 --> 00:23:02,120 Constitution nerds like me um there's 551 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,880 something in the United States 552 00:23:02,120 --> 00:23:08,039 Constitution called The Venue Clauses 553 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:09,880 and what those Clauses say that uh they 554 00:23:08,039 --> 00:23:12,760 say that any federal crial trial has to 555 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:15,039 be this in the state and the district 556 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:16,559 where the crime occurred and the reason 557 00:23:15,039 --> 00:23:18,480 that the framers put that in the United 558 00:23:16,559 --> 00:23:20,760 States Constitution is in during the 559 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:22,919 Revolutionary War the British crown was 560 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:24,880 arresting American revolutionaries in 561 00:23:22,919 --> 00:23:28,000 Philadelphia and then putting them on 562 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:31,039 trial in London when you get a very very 563 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:32,120 very different jury right but so what 564 00:23:31,039 --> 00:23:34,000 the United States government is 565 00:23:32,120 --> 00:23:35,600 essentially claiming in this case is 566 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,880 basically what Mike just said Universal 567 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:40,640 jurisdiction over the Internet for any 568 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:43,360 prosecutor who logs on to the internet 569 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:46,520 goes to your website or whatever or not 570 00:23:43,360 --> 00:23:48,240 even your we TI get to your website and 571 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:51,320 you don't even know about it and then 572 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:53,480 you go L at a US airport and you jail 573 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:56,400 for two and a half years pre-trial like 574 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:58,440 K now the United States there's only two 575 00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:01,240 reasons that you can be held with or 576 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:03,159 held pre-trial incarcerate incarceration 577 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:05,840 the first is that you're a threat to the 578 00:24:03,159 --> 00:24:06,640 community commit a very violent Act and 579 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:07,720 the government's worried that you're 580 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,000 gonna go out and do it again or hurt 581 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:12,240 somebody else you know they can detain 582 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:13,559 you and not give you Bond the second 583 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:16,960 reason is that they're considered a 584 00:24:13,559 --> 00:24:19,679 Flight Risk in this case the government 585 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:22,880 in the bond hearing said Roman is a 586 00:24:19,679 --> 00:24:25,320 Flight Risk why oh because he had four 587 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:27,279 passports on him now any of you who are 588 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,320 familiar with either Russia or Sweden 589 00:24:27,279 --> 00:24:30,440 know that 590 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,960 in Russia you're given two passports one 591 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:34,480 for internal travel between the 592 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:37,039 different oblas and the second distinct 593 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:38,640 passport for international travel in 594 00:24:37,039 --> 00:24:39,840 Sweden they're kind of internationally 595 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,320 oriented you know they want to make sure 596 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:43,320 that their citizens can go visit any 597 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:45,120 country that they want and please to so 598 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:47,159 they give their citizens a passport as 599 00:24:45,120 --> 00:24:48,440 well as a backup passport in case you 600 00:24:47,159 --> 00:24:50,399 want to go to let's say a country like 601 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:52,640 Saudi Arabia around and go to Israel you 602 00:24:50,399 --> 00:24:54,600 can use a different passport so all four 603 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,760 of these passports were completely 604 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:58,840 legitimate and the government could have 605 00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:00,480 found this out simp by checking to see 606 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:03,320 if they're real by reaching out to 607 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:06,120 Sweden reaching out to Russia they chose 608 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:08,799 not to do that they told the court that 609 00:25:06,120 --> 00:25:11,399 the passports were fake and I think that 610 00:25:08,799 --> 00:25:14,559 typifies their entire approach to this 611 00:25:11,399 --> 00:25:17,000 case where they're desperate and they 612 00:25:14,559 --> 00:25:19,440 need to play dirty pool and that's what 613 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,760 we're dealing with every step of the way 614 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:23,120 through the case before I mentioned 615 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:25,399 earlier Mr deated Mark carpus because we 616 00:25:23,120 --> 00:25:27,559 need his testimony at the dber hearing 617 00:25:25,399 --> 00:25:30,559 which is on the validity of the evidence 618 00:25:27,559 --> 00:25:31,840 of government use that trial and they 619 00:25:30,559 --> 00:25:35,080 say 620 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:38,360 accept supr chysis SCE code will refuse 621 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:40,039 to give it to us that we tell Miss toer 622 00:25:38,360 --> 00:25:42,279 that you're a material fact witness in 623 00:25:40,039 --> 00:25:46,000 this case you're the initiating FBI 624 00:25:42,279 --> 00:25:48,320 officer who starts this invation Roman 625 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:51,080 confirmation ball rolling with this 626 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:52,840 investigation again sandbagged nothing 627 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:55,720 we Suba Jonathan Levan and Michael 628 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:57,720 Groner and CH Al's lawyers who were 629 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,240 fighting with them on this too told us 630 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:02,080 that they're basically too important to 631 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:03,760 testify at a Federal Criminal tribe try 632 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,440 to get the money out the money that was 633 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,559 seized from Roman's tracking account 634 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,960 show them the evidence of the how was 635 00:26:07,559 --> 00:26:10,159 deposit deposit deposit you know 636 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,960 withdraw withdrawal gets worried that 637 00:26:10,159 --> 00:26:14,760 it's losing starts trading again the 638 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,640 court and the and the government says 639 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,440 that you know it can't be released now 640 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,640 one thing did come out of that here Amil 641 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,960 one thing that I think everybody in this 642 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:23,480 room is going to be interested in it was 643 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,200 the first time that an article three 644 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:28,159 judge looked at the evidence around 645 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:29,880 mixing services and said mixing 646 00:26:28,159 --> 00:26:31,799 per se without anything more it's 647 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:34,880 completely legal in the United 648 00:26:31,799 --> 00:26:37,039 States that's big it's the first time 649 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,399 that a judge or any government officer 650 00:26:37,039 --> 00:26:41,559 has come through and actually defined 651 00:26:38,399 --> 00:26:44,039 and said mixing is 652 00:26:41,559 --> 00:26:45,919 legal you need more you need more you 653 00:26:44,039 --> 00:26:48,559 need to be mixing illegal funds for it 654 00:26:45,919 --> 00:26:50,279 to be illegal that that that was a big 655 00:26:48,559 --> 00:26:53,080 thing and I can Al you can also see the 656 00:26:50,279 --> 00:26:57,000 judges skepticism um about the 657 00:26:53,080 --> 00:27:00,399 government's case but uh he had to just 658 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:02,080 protect the reasons assume that rman was 659 00:27:00,399 --> 00:27:03,679 the operator Bitcoin fog for the 660 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:07,440 purposes of that decision but it's going 661 00:27:03,679 --> 00:27:08,720 to be a very different standard at trial 662 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,760 but uh one of the reasons we've been 663 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:13,320 going around is because they seized all 664 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:16,120 this money we're doing this case with 665 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:17,399 absolutely uh no money but you know so 666 00:27:16,120 --> 00:27:20,240 lot I'm committed to it and that's what 667 00:27:17,399 --> 00:27:24,000 we've been doing our cases for years and 668 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:26,640 um so anything anybody could do to help 669 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:29,399 fund woman's defense some the appreciate 670 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:31,720 we did get um what's called criminal 671 00:27:29,399 --> 00:27:34,840 justice act funding which is like Cut 672 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:36,120 Rate funding and so I was all excited 673 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:39,039 about this and I'm doing all the 674 00:27:36,120 --> 00:27:43,320 paperwork and then they told me you know 675 00:27:39,039 --> 00:27:44,440 um probably get paid maybe after trial 676 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,440 I'm like that's great this is going to 677 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:49,960 be a month-long trial in Washington DC 678 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:53,000 on September 14th with you know multiple 679 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:55,360 experts and curiously no Witnesses 680 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:57,919 because this is something that Z icates 681 00:27:55,360 --> 00:28:00,320 me about this case now one of the 682 00:27:57,919 --> 00:28:02,039 interesting things also is that all the 683 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:04,600 block sheet analysis that the analysis 684 00:28:02,039 --> 00:28:06,799 is coming forward and and the government 685 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:09,240 is using to identify Roman as a ported 686 00:28:06,799 --> 00:28:12,279 operator of Bitcoin fog the entire 687 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:14,519 blockchain forensic industry completely 688 00:28:12,279 --> 00:28:16,840 standardless and they're completely 689 00:28:14,519 --> 00:28:18,360 refusing to show us any of their math 690 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,760 we've been sandbagged on that front as 691 00:28:18,360 --> 00:28:22,519 well we asked the see chain reactor we 692 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,720 asked to see the input data sets that 693 00:28:22,519 --> 00:28:27,200 they use we asked to see that everything 694 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:29,799 and and and they've said No in fact none 695 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:31,760 of it been turned over and Discovery so 696 00:28:29,799 --> 00:28:34,080 in many ways T analysis is acting like 697 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:36,000 this wizard behind the curtain and we're 698 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:38,279 just supposed to trust them trust that 699 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,880 their analysis is correct even though we 700 00:28:38,279 --> 00:28:43,159 know that nothing in the blockchain 701 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:44,960 forensics world has accepted standards 702 00:28:43,159 --> 00:28:47,279 we've come across this in other cases as 703 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:49,320 well if you're dealing with uh let's say 704 00:28:47,279 --> 00:28:51,039 e Discovery you know these standards on 705 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,720 how e Discovery is supposed to be shared 706 00:28:51,039 --> 00:28:54,799 and presented and what what it's worth 707 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:57,720 at trial these standards are thought 708 00:28:54,799 --> 00:28:59,240 about at a conference in Sedona Arizona 709 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,679 know they release uh peer-reviewed 710 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,960 papers where they talk about the 711 00:29:00,679 --> 00:29:03,720 standards that are made and why they 712 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,960 should be this way for blockchain 713 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:08,159 forensics there's none of them there's 714 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:10,200 an interesting book by Chris Faber Camp 715 00:29:08,159 --> 00:29:13,440 from the Innocence Project called junp 716 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:15,320 science and he talks about how new kinds 717 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:18,840 of forensics when they're coming out you 718 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:21,600 know fingerprint forensics DNA forensics 719 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:26,159 Dental record forensics when they're 720 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:28,279 new they're often inaccurate in fact 51% 721 00:29:26,159 --> 00:29:30,720 of the of the wrongful convictions that 722 00:29:28,279 --> 00:29:32,840 the Innocence Project is able been 723 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,679 overturned have been the result of this 724 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,159 kind of junk science and that's exactly 725 00:29:34,679 --> 00:29:37,320 what we have here with ch analysis 726 00:29:36,159 --> 00:29:38,480 because they're trying to make up their 727 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:41,480 rules and they're not they're not 728 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:44,760 showing us to work and this is the first 729 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:47,519 time uh that CH analysis is going to be 730 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:50,519 challenged in the US federal court at 731 00:29:47,519 --> 00:29:53,720 trial um if you're familiar with the US 732 00:29:50,519 --> 00:29:55,399 system at all 90% of the cases go to a 733 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,720 plea people just take a guilty plea 734 00:29:55,399 --> 00:29:58,880 because they don't have the2 to four 735 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:01,399 million doll should need fight the 736 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:03,640 United States government a lot of people 737 00:30:01,399 --> 00:30:06,000 in the United States who are innocent 738 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:07,480 take police for that reason it's it's 739 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:10,640 just basically turned into a police 740 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:14,399 system of rest of the other 10% of the 741 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:18,600 cases 8% are dismissed 2% actually go to 742 00:30:14,399 --> 00:30:20,919 trial less than 1% result in the quiddle 743 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:23,200 you can see the there because uh that's 744 00:30:20,919 --> 00:30:25,600 just a [ __ ] rot system and i' been in 745 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:27,760 it 10 years but we do have an 746 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:30,320 interesting opportunity here 747 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:32,159 because in a lot of the cases you know I 748 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:33,960 don't want to say you know but the 749 00:30:32,159 --> 00:30:35,440 Govern the defendant is guilty you know 750 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:38,200 there's TR operating evidence to prove 751 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:41,640 it here we have somebody who is 752 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:43,799 completely clean this is our chance to 753 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:46,159 challenge chain analysis this is our 754 00:30:43,799 --> 00:30:47,840 chance to challenge how they manipulate 755 00:30:46,159 --> 00:30:49,960 data transics in order to support the 756 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,799 government's op and and get those big 757 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:54,360 contracts and get those jobs at CH 758 00:30:51,799 --> 00:30:57,880 analysis when they leave doj the fact 759 00:30:54,360 --> 00:31:00,200 that Roman is innocent is incredible 760 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,919 yeah I me when we got this case on our 761 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:04,120 desk a little bit because we kind of 762 00:31:01,919 --> 00:31:06,159 thought oh like everybody does this is 763 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:08,320 the natural reaction you must have done 764 00:31:06,159 --> 00:31:09,919 something you must have known somebody 765 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,399 right I figured okay well we'll just cut 766 00:31:09,919 --> 00:31:14,080 some [ __ ] deal even didn't do this 767 00:31:11,399 --> 00:31:15,919 [ __ ] we know somebody or whatever and 768 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,360 then we went down to talk to him in jail 769 00:31:15,919 --> 00:31:19,919 and we talked him five minutes and we 770 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:22,799 were like holy [ __ ] dude you're 771 00:31:19,919 --> 00:31:25,120 innocent in Z that's a game changer 772 00:31:22,799 --> 00:31:27,000 we've just been on aade since and 773 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,639 everybody we brought in on this case and 774 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,720 now we've unfortunate to have some very 775 00:31:28,639 --> 00:31:32,360 very good people working on we tell them 776 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:35,320 we just say listen if you see one thing 777 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:38,639 that makes you he's guilty you let us 778 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:39,960 know to dat nobody's pointed out any 779 00:31:38,639 --> 00:31:41,559 people just get really really pissed off 780 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:44,840 and work on this case 781 00:31:41,559 --> 00:31:47,559 harder the really thing doug because 782 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:49,159 Doug put us on the Monero podcast and 783 00:31:47,559 --> 00:31:50,919 that was the first podcast where he 784 00:31:49,159 --> 00:31:53,639 actually got a chance to tell Roman's 785 00:31:50,919 --> 00:31:55,880 story once that podcast got out we got 786 00:31:53,639 --> 00:31:58,000 invited by a man named Lucas bear who 787 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,840 runs a Swiss Association he said you 788 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,720 know what this is really [ __ ] up and 789 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:03,840 we want to help us the word so he 790 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,519 invited us to Europe put us in touch 791 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:09,600 with the other Bitcoin meetups we went 792 00:32:05,519 --> 00:32:11,039 to Durk Munich Berlin Stuart and these 793 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,559 were the people these were the same 794 00:32:11,039 --> 00:32:15,960 meetups that Roman was attending back in 795 00:32:13,559 --> 00:32:18,840 2011 and it gave us an opportunity to 796 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:20,919 get to know his tribe where he comes 797 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,840 from what kind of ideas are being passed 798 00:32:20,919 --> 00:32:24,559 around and we've been on a couple other 799 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:26,440 podcasts since and now you know the 800 00:32:24,559 --> 00:32:28,720 momentum behind Roman's case it's really 801 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,399 just starting to build you know and and 802 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:32,399 it's because of people like you in this 803 00:32:30,399 --> 00:32:34,440 room who are hearing this story and 804 00:32:32,399 --> 00:32:36,760 thinking hey that's [ __ ] up you know 805 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:39,279 we can't let this 806 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:41,880 happen so I think we're reaching the end 807 00:32:39,279 --> 00:32:44,200 of our lot of time here I mean we're 808 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:46,600 happy to answer questions we're also G 809 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:49,320 to be around all weekend at we have one 810 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,320 person back 811 00:32:55,159 --> 00:33:01,200 want sure sure sure of course 812 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:03,799 hey first off like Round of Applause for 813 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:05,840 these guys for fighting 814 00:33:03,799 --> 00:33:08,639 for 815 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:10,440 um I I didn't I didn't mention this 816 00:33:08,639 --> 00:33:12,760 during my talk but I mentioned report on 817 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:15,080 the crypto space I was in New York City 818 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:16,840 during Ross s Rick's entire trial and 819 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,600 Andy Greenberg was responsible for all 820 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:20,600 the horrible stories about Ross paining 821 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:22,559 him as a Kingpin you know all this 822 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:25,360 criminal activity so it doesn't surprise 823 00:33:22,559 --> 00:33:27,880 me to see that journalist is on Roman 824 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:29,840 story um it's I'm happy to help in any 825 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,240 way I can to amplify this story as well 826 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:34,679 but is there a main website that people 827 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:35,840 can find to find perect if you just got 828 00:33:34,679 --> 00:33:38,720 it 829 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:41,000 t.com there's a link with info on the 830 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:44,039 case and how to donate you got you guys 831 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:45,440 need a Monero donation address we do we 832 00:33:44,039 --> 00:33:47,600 we have one we have one if you go to the 833 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:49,519 website there is one we we put one on 834 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:52,679 perfect example right I may not want the 835 00:33:49,519 --> 00:33:54,279 world to know that I I've donated this 836 00:33:52,679 --> 00:33:58,080 campaign right and we've been getting 837 00:33:54,279 --> 00:33:59,799 mon donations thank you everybody 838 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:02,919 yeah 839 00:33:59,799 --> 00:34:05,799 no and but and by the way my my opening 840 00:34:02,919 --> 00:34:08,480 FAA where I basically said he created 841 00:34:05,799 --> 00:34:12,800 bitcoin that's the problem right so it's 842 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:16,000 guilty it's guilty to 843 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:18,359 right right it's it's no more innocent 844 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:21,720 until proven guilty right and they they 845 00:34:18,359 --> 00:34:23,879 win by by owning the Mind share and 846 00:34:21,720 --> 00:34:27,480 getting getting the work like all of us 847 00:34:23,879 --> 00:34:30,200 here right we're we're we're you know we 848 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:32,520 are by far the this the super minority 849 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:34,879 right we're very suspicious but the vast 850 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:38,440 majority reads a headline and just 851 00:34:34,879 --> 00:34:41,399 assumes this guy's a 852 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:42,679 criminal hearings know we're saying that 853 00:34:41,399 --> 00:34:44,200 the government has to prove Beyond a 854 00:34:42,679 --> 00:34:45,679 reasonable doubt that this guy's guilty 855 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:47,520 there's no evidence like why is this 856 00:34:45,679 --> 00:34:49,839 going on like just release them already 857 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:51,399 right the prosecutors come up to us and 858 00:34:49,839 --> 00:34:53,159 they say no no this thing wasn't coming 859 00:34:51,399 --> 00:34:55,639 up to us this was on the [ __ ] record 860 00:34:53,159 --> 00:34:58,200 dude this just to the judge this and 861 00:34:55,639 --> 00:35:00,359 they say you you know the defense has 862 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:02,960 Pro that he's innocent and we're like 863 00:35:00,359 --> 00:35:04,640 wait what you know I I heard that you 864 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:07,680 heard that at Federal Federal Criminal 865 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:10,640 Court the transcripts a prosecutor said 866 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:13,640 that the def has to prove what he's 867 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:15,119 innocent this your shows like they're 868 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:17,240 not used to trials you know they're not 869 00:35:15,119 --> 00:35:19,200 used to Guys Like Us coming back up in 870 00:35:17,240 --> 00:35:20,520 person and go so gungho when the 871 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,920 government takes all of its money you 872 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,560 know we're going mon with r we're 873 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:25,920 fighting the case we're going around the 874 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:28,200 world to tell people like you you know 875 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:30,280 every's not used to this the police 876 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,760 system you know they better get used to 877 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:34,920 it 878 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:36,359 though any any other questions what what 879 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:39,480 is you know I just want to do the what 880 00:35:36,359 --> 00:35:41,920 do you guys think this means for Monero 881 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:44,680 right which is default private doesn't 882 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:46,880 require any mixers but there's this 883 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:50,240 worry that the government may just try 884 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:53,560 to ban something like Monero you spoke 885 00:35:50,240 --> 00:35:56,680 about that mixing itself uh has been 886 00:35:53,560 --> 00:36:00,599 defined legally defined as being legal 887 00:35:56,680 --> 00:36:02,160 um is there should be concern that 888 00:36:00,599 --> 00:36:05,520 perhaps the United States might try to 889 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:10,200 ban Monero or or some other some other 890 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:12,640 major state or is is it an absurd 891 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:14,640 notion I think that uh it's much more 892 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:17,359 likely that the government is going to 893 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:20,040 use these standardless junk science 894 00:36:17,359 --> 00:36:21,160 forensics justification and try to 895 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,839 convince the government and try to 896 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,079 convince people that they could trace it 897 00:36:22,839 --> 00:36:25,240 whether or not they can't because 898 00:36:24,079 --> 00:36:27,079 apparently they don't have to show their 899 00:36:25,240 --> 00:36:28,160 data show their map you know I think 900 00:36:27,079 --> 00:36:31,040 it's much more likely that they're going 901 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:33,280 to use a company like chainalysis to you 902 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:35,760 know shut it down to these kind of cases 903 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:38,079 and that that's the most dangerous thing 904 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:40,520 I think the United States government um 905 00:36:38,079 --> 00:36:43,240 wants to control all the currency in the 906 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:46,240 world and they're losing their mind when 907 00:36:43,240 --> 00:36:47,960 Bitcoin and then monar and everything 908 00:36:46,240 --> 00:36:49,960 and they seem to think that anything 909 00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:52,359 involved with the digital cency is 910 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:54,720 somehow criminal it's it's just it's 911 00:36:52,359 --> 00:36:57,040 this weird psychology to have so I would 912 00:36:54,720 --> 00:36:58,319 be concerned about that and I I see 913 00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,560 there's a lot of questions which is 914 00:36:58,319 --> 00:37:01,200 great and these guys are going to be on 915 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,480 our chain analysis panalty so there'll 916 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:04,880 be another hopefully another we'll be 917 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:08,960 hanging out all weekend go 918 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:11,400 ahead um a few years ago there were a 919 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:14,119 lot of um people using algorithms for 920 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:16,000 sentencing and all this sort of and the 921 00:37:14,119 --> 00:37:18,560 case got pushed up to the US Supreme 922 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:21,480 Court and Justice uh chief justice 923 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:23,240 Roberts issued an opinion that said that 924 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:26,000 you know all this machine learning it's 925 00:37:23,240 --> 00:37:28,359 basically a bunch of gapa leuk and are 926 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:31,119 you g to be to use that higher Court 927 00:37:28,359 --> 00:37:35,040 opinion in order to force the source 928 00:37:31,119 --> 00:37:37,000 code for G analysis to be revealed uh 929 00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:38,400 I'm our argument is essential if you're 930 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,720 not going to show us the source Court 931 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:42,160 you should none of this comes in as 932 00:37:39,720 --> 00:37:44,720 evidence and and they they're saying 933 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:47,119 they came back in in their they moved to 934 00:37:44,720 --> 00:37:49,400 quash Suba and they were basically like 935 00:37:47,119 --> 00:37:52,240 our stuff's proprietary and we were like 936 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:53,920 [ __ ] you don't you voluntarily chose to 937 00:37:52,240 --> 00:37:55,760 go into the law enforcement business and 938 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:58,680 if you want to put somebody away for 50 939 00:37:55,760 --> 00:38:00,160 years to life show the damn math and and 940 00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:02,599 one of the things the themes for us in 941 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:04,880 this case is Wan's not hiding anything 942 00:38:02,599 --> 00:38:06,520 it's the government hiding anything W's 943 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:08,760 not making any money it's the government 944 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:11,040 and chain houses making all the money 945 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:12,599 you know so yeah I mean I'm totally down 946 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:14,119 with that I hate I hate those sensing 947 00:38:12,599 --> 00:38:15,480 algorithm the other thing with the 948 00:38:14,119 --> 00:38:17,480 sentencing algorithms is that the 949 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:19,560 sentencing guidelines are completely 950 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:21,160 arbitrary and they don't really make a 951 00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,400 lot of sense you know you might have 952 00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:24,200 somebody who committed like a really 953 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:26,119 heinous crime and he can out the 954 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,680 sentencing guidelines doesn't get nearly 955 00:38:26,119 --> 00:38:31,280 as what somebody who did a very 956 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:33,359 relatively minor crime so when you imp 957 00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:35,720 guidelines into AI you're just going to 958 00:38:33,359 --> 00:38:37,319 get like convoluted like terrible 959 00:38:35,720 --> 00:38:39,359 results nobody would really think is 960 00:38:37,319 --> 00:38:41,440 just and I think that's one of the major 961 00:38:39,359 --> 00:38:44,079 themes of this case overall is that 962 00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:46,400 there are being profits Fame are being 963 00:38:44,079 --> 00:38:48,079 placed over top of Justice when you have 964 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:50,160 private companies like Al that's coming 965 00:38:48,079 --> 00:38:51,520 into the law enforcement States and 966 00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:53,359 trying to hide their work and trying to 967 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,560 make money and go on for private Equity 968 00:38:53,359 --> 00:38:56,800 funding rounds every time there's an 969 00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:58,079 arrest release and then Co Le saying 970 00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,400 that oh because there's an arrest that 971 00:38:58,079 --> 00:39:03,440 means that our software works you know 972 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:05,560 this is dangerous Justice and Andy's 973 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:07,839 book by the way has been optioned uh by 974 00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:10,560 Hollywood an Oscar womaning documentary 975 00:39:07,839 --> 00:39:13,359 filmmaker named Andy kidney was Andy 976 00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:16,720 Andy kidney right Alex KY thank you Alex 977 00:39:13,359 --> 00:39:19,119 K we thought about subing him too 978 00:39:16,720 --> 00:39:21,839 but I have a couple of questions here I 979 00:39:19,119 --> 00:39:25,960 mean I've been studying What I Call F 980 00:39:21,839 --> 00:39:29,920 surveillance which in fact isit my in my 981 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:32,800 in kind of claim to C reception analysis 982 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:35,040 do that um and and I'm actually of the 983 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:36,520 opinion that it doesn't work on bitcoin 984 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:38,640 um one of the main reasons of motivation 985 00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:40,520 for this and it is that one of the 986 00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:42,319 justifications of the list monara for 987 00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:46,720 exchanges has been the fact that it 988 00:39:42,319 --> 00:39:48,800 breaks this type of um Blain sance my 989 00:39:46,720 --> 00:39:52,440 question is have trouble are you aware 990 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:54,560 of any evidence of failure of blockchain 991 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:57,200 surveillance in other cases of 992 00:39:54,560 --> 00:40:00,720 situations or data that would indicate 993 00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:02,119 to go add questions to that failure 994 00:40:00,720 --> 00:40:04,760 that's a really good question because 995 00:40:02,119 --> 00:40:06,960 what's interesting about every other 996 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:10,160 case except for this one is that they've 997 00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:13,440 got some kind of collaborating evidence 998 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:16,920 that confirms what they were saying that 999 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:19,520 that they tracing showed so it's hard to 1000 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:21,720 tell actually how good the tracing is 1001 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:23,960 because when uh for instance like Ross 1002 00:40:21,720 --> 00:40:26,839 Alber he's arrested in in a public 1003 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:29,240 library with his laptop open to the 1004 00:40:26,839 --> 00:40:30,839 admin panel for silk road right there's 1005 00:40:29,240 --> 00:40:33,119 another case called Harmon where a guy 1006 00:40:30,839 --> 00:40:36,040 accidentally takes uh he takes his GL 1007 00:40:33,119 --> 00:40:38,079 glasses off he accident takes a photo of 1008 00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:41,440 the Advent panel so it's not clear to me 1009 00:40:38,079 --> 00:40:43,480 actually how effective tracing has been 1010 00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:47,119 in these cases because almost all of 1011 00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:50,040 them are also plea deals so on a plea 1012 00:40:47,119 --> 00:40:51,800 deal because the standard is so low like 1013 00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:56,359 nothing gets tested and that's why this 1014 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:58,720 is the first case where anybody's going 1015 00:40:56,359 --> 00:41:01,040 get one for real so it's it's hard to 1016 00:40:58,720 --> 00:41:03,880 tell because you know I mean the whole 1017 00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:06,319 analysis is a probability analysis which 1018 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:07,800 is basically [ __ ] guessing and we are 1019 00:41:06,319 --> 00:41:10,280 seeing all sorts of mistakes all over 1020 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:12,599 the place so I can imagine that being a 1021 00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:12,599 problem 1022 00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:18,200 elsewhere yeah those cases you know like 1023 00:41:16,359 --> 00:41:19,560 kman is just such a funny one that's 1024 00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:21,319 what I was trying to mention you know 1025 00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,720 how he takes the Google Glasses off and 1026 00:41:21,319 --> 00:41:25,079 that's their main piece of evidence you 1027 00:41:22,720 --> 00:41:27,520 know but here there's nothing there's 1028 00:41:25,079 --> 00:41:29,480 absolutely no corroborating evidence you 1029 00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:32,040 know there's no logs there's no nothing 1030 00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:33,560 and you know this is almost working 1031 00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,040 against us because the government is 1032 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:37,280 coming out and they're saying because 1033 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:38,960 there's no evidence it's evidence that 1034 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:40,800 he's a mastermind cyber internet 1035 00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:43,160 criminal you know he was so good at 1036 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:45,400 hiting it that he must be the creator of 1037 00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:47,760 Bitcoin fog because it's so 1038 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:50,400 sophisticated and they 1039 00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:52,599 sophisticated because they can't trace 1040 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:55,000 through it that's why Roman wound up in 1041 00:41:52,599 --> 00:41:56,839 the situation because through all even 1042 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,960 through CH analysis is Li and their 1043 00:41:56,839 --> 00:42:00,960 misguided blockchain approaches you know 1044 00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:02,680 they still can't find the real operator 1045 00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:04,560 Bitcoin fog with that an analytical 1046 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:08,839 methods that they're using mixing 1047 00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:08,839 service work and it scares the living 1048 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:14,480 [ __ ] my my my second question referring 1049 00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:17,760 evidence outside of the of the legal 1050 00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:20,400 realm um and in particular there was a 1051 00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:24,440 um a report put out by the financial 1052 00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:25,800 acction task force where they send um H 1053 00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:29,599 I think seven different blockchain 1054 00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:32,960 surveillance companies to measure the 1055 00:42:29,599 --> 00:42:36,480 percentage of the listed activity in the 1056 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:38,800 Bitcoin blockchain and and I think was 1057 00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:41,280 about four or five year period for each 1058 00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:44,280 year and the ranges for the averages 1059 00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:46,440 that they got range from 0.4% so like 1060 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:48,800 12.5% are you familiar with this report 1061 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:52,359 at all no I don't know that but I 1062 00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:56,240 haven't found any peer reviewed papers 1063 00:42:52,359 --> 00:42:58,720 on any of this crap like Jane alysis 1064 00:42:56,240 --> 00:43:01,160 thing like it's one of the I think 1065 00:42:58,720 --> 00:43:03,359 problems with the this whole field is 1066 00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:06,559 it's based on juristic which is the 1067 00:43:03,359 --> 00:43:09,040 Greek word for ging and it's incredibly 1068 00:43:06,559 --> 00:43:10,760 subjective well the the reason I'm say 1069 00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:13,240 this is because what that would indicate 1070 00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:15,480 to me is that the average istically are 1071 00:43:13,240 --> 00:43:18,640 so far off it's quite impossible toate 1072 00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:20,640 any reli evidence of case I mean that 1073 00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:23,200 that's why I'm saying and so it comes to 1074 00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:24,880 the next question um apart from 1075 00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:26,880 obviously fundraising are there other 1076 00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:30,640 ways where we and the Monero can help 1077 00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:33,079 you gather or at least B 1078 00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:35,559 information on this sort of the 1079 00:43:33,079 --> 00:43:37,880 flawlessness of surveillance in the 1080 00:43:35,559 --> 00:43:40,319 general sense that will be helpful for 1081 00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:43,119 the case and how will we go about doing 1082 00:43:40,319 --> 00:43:46,200 that absolutely we've already you've 1083 00:43:43,119 --> 00:43:48,480 already gotten a lot of great ideas from 1084 00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:50,520 people because you first all you just 1085 00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:52,599 email us if you go to our website 1086 00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:55,200 there's an email it's 1087 00:43:52,599 --> 00:43:57,559 info.com reach out to us because we've 1088 00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:59,359 got our heads in this so deeply we miss 1089 00:43:57,559 --> 00:44:01,359 the obvious sometime I think it was like 1090 00:43:59,359 --> 00:44:03,359 like a Zer or someone just made this 1091 00:44:01,359 --> 00:44:06,119 great point they were like if this guy's 1092 00:44:03,359 --> 00:44:08,160 such a criminal mastermind and he's such 1093 00:44:06,119 --> 00:44:10,079 a genius and he's like cleared all his 1094 00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:13,000 tracks and there's no evidence why the 1095 00:44:10,079 --> 00:44:15,480 [ __ ] is he using a kyc crack in account 1096 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:18,720 to take the royalty payments and you're 1097 00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:21,359 like yeah right like 1098 00:44:18,720 --> 00:44:22,760 like yeah right like there's stuff in 1099 00:44:21,359 --> 00:44:25,680 his Diaries where he's talking about how 1100 00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:28,319 broke he is right like because like just 1101 00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:30,240 sort of like the cloud mind anything 1102 00:44:28,319 --> 00:44:31,720 take a look at it if you've got if you 1103 00:44:30,240 --> 00:44:33,640 think something just reach out to us and 1104 00:44:31,720 --> 00:44:36,640 talk to us about it because we're not 1105 00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:39,359 like super Geniuses or anything stuff on 1106 00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:41,480 you know missing it's just like you know 1107 00:44:39,359 --> 00:44:44,160 we welcome the 1108 00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:47,119 help thank you guys for speaking today 1109 00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:50,119 um my question is so a little advertised 1110 00:44:47,119 --> 00:44:52,800 fact is um that the CEO of Kraken Jesse 1111 00:44:50,119 --> 00:44:56,240 Powell is a co-founder of CH 1112 00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:57,880 analysis uh any plans to subpoena him 1113 00:44:56,240 --> 00:44:59,760 and try to make it uncomfortable for 1114 00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:01,960 exchanges to associate with chain 1115 00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:04,240 analysis and rely so heavily on their 1116 00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:05,720 analysis yeah so we found the same thing 1117 00:45:04,240 --> 00:45:07,800 in particular we've taken a Michael 1118 00:45:05,720 --> 00:45:09,400 Groner you know in fact we sent him a 1119 00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:11,520 subpoena today which are waiting to hear 1120 00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:13,680 back from because we want him to testify 1121 00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:15,280 as to the Mount Go's records that he got 1122 00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:18,000 from Mar carpis when he was trying to 1123 00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:21,079 build chainalysis see Michael Groner 1124 00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:23,000 co-founded chainalysis with Jonathan L 1125 00:45:21,079 --> 00:45:25,000 and they did so on the back of trying to 1126 00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:27,720 find the missing Bitcoins from the mount 1127 00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:30,839 gox hack and it was only through this 1128 00:45:27,720 --> 00:45:33,920 book that we learned this story you know 1129 00:45:30,839 --> 00:45:35,800 nothing in the government's Discovery so 1130 00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:37,880 where the M go Circ came from how they 1131 00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:40,440 were messed up but we have to find it in 1132 00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:42,960 a in a public from our regular bookstore 1133 00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:45,480 that's going around so yes we are 1134 00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:47,680 targeting Michael groer because he uh is 1135 00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:49,920 affiliated with C but also because he 1136 00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:52,079 built chainalysis with the same Mount 1137 00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:54,880 dark records the government is now using 1138 00:45:52,079 --> 00:45:58,280 to accuse Roman of theu 1139 00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:58,280 act it's a 1140 00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:06,880 mess that's it's the the mount go stat 1141 00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:09,520 is a total mass and so when we read in 1142 00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:12,000 the book that uh it had been given to 1143 00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:13,800 grer and grer was like it's corrupt we 1144 00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:16,440 like oh you know that makes sense you 1145 00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:19,880 know that's a good 1146 00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:19,880 question all right 1147 00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:29,640 pav things I I have just two short 1148 00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:33,200 question the first question is uh 1149 00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:36,160 apparently for uh chain chain analysis 1150 00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:39,480 this was or it should be like the huge 1151 00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:41,760 repetition Scandal so my question is did 1152 00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:44,599 they apologize 1153 00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:48,119 him a stupid question I do not expect it 1154 00:46:44,599 --> 00:46:52,040 from the US government but but uh but 1155 00:46:48,119 --> 00:46:55,920 from this private company if it just 1156 00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:58,559 might come would do that for um they 1157 00:46:55,920 --> 00:47:00,839 been uh really contemptuous to us they 1158 00:46:58,559 --> 00:47:03,400 told us that they were too important to 1159 00:47:00,839 --> 00:47:04,839 testify they quoted some of my [ __ ] from 1160 00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:06,880 my Twitter feed at me which I always 1161 00:47:04,839 --> 00:47:10,599 love it when people do that um but 1162 00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:13,359 they've been really arrogant they've um 1163 00:47:10,599 --> 00:47:15,040 refused to cooperate at all uh my 1164 00:47:13,359 --> 00:47:17,760 impression is that they don't give a 1165 00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:20,079 [ __ ] about whether or not they've got 1166 00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:22,440 the right person the most important 1167 00:47:20,079 --> 00:47:26,440 thing to them is their money and their 1168 00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:30,359 government contract and and uh if get qu 1169 00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:32,200 all they're the first company we're 1170 00:47:30,359 --> 00:47:34,960 suing 1171 00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:37,440 yeah yeah I don't have yeah yeah they 1172 00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:39,800 hired like bunch of people from okay 1173 00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:42,160 thanks a lot for this I would expect it 1174 00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:45,119 um and the last question is probably you 1175 00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:48,200 know the the technical details of Ros 1176 00:47:45,119 --> 00:47:51,200 brick process legal process I know that 1177 00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:55,319 in his legal process or a lot of like 1178 00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:56,440 mistakes like a gathering the the proofs 1179 00:47:55,319 --> 00:47:59,000 and everything 1180 00:47:56,440 --> 00:48:01,280 so do you believe that it's likely in 1181 00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:06,880 the near future that his case will be 1182 00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:09,640 open G and in change and he like and the 1183 00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:13,640 the I think he has like a double life 1184 00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:16,040 pron I think R um and it's fortunate I 1185 00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:18,440 know like I I've spoken to Ross I I 1186 00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:20,319 talked to him briefly when he was GNA do 1187 00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:24,720 his Supreme Court appeal I know his mom 1188 00:48:20,319 --> 00:48:26,319 I know um I almost actually had took 1189 00:48:24,720 --> 00:48:31,200 that case and 1190 00:48:26,319 --> 00:48:33,680 I'm not g on how that was handled um but 1191 00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:33,680 um 1192 00:48:33,720 --> 00:48:39,480 I with there's this when it comes to 1193 00:48:38,240 --> 00:48:40,599 this kind of stuff and these kinds of 1194 00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:42,200 computers and the kind of stuff that 1195 00:48:40,599 --> 00:48:44,359 everybody in this room is doing and like 1196 00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:47,000 Doug you were saying you know you're the 1197 00:48:44,359 --> 00:48:48,480 minority the majority of people don't 1198 00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:51,440 know anything about computers they view 1199 00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:54,200 it as a kind of black magic don't 1200 00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:55,599 understand it and and it's it's a an odd 1201 00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:57,839 phenomena but I've seen it in every 1202 00:48:55,599 --> 00:49:00,480 every single case I've had in the last 1203 00:48:57,839 --> 00:49:04,119 10 years they they do like it's a kind 1204 00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:06,440 of Witchcraft and Ross got demonized and 1205 00:49:04,119 --> 00:49:10,000 he got demonized as this you know evil 1206 00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:12,680 guy killing people and and all this this 1207 00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:14,040 stuff and I think well I know is the 1208 00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:15,640 fact that when you get in prison if 1209 00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:18,440 you're like I've had hacker clients who 1210 00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:20,680 go into prison they'll I've had clients 1211 00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:23,079 who got like uh were convicted for 1212 00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:24,880 copying the email addresses laa silver 1213 00:49:23,079 --> 00:49:27,760 who spent the majority of their time in 1214 00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:28,960 solitary find that because there's this 1215 00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:30,960 they think that oh my God they're going 1216 00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:33,000 to get on a computer and they're going 1217 00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:35,880 to end the world from the jail it's 1218 00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:37,720 completely irrational um I hate to say 1219 00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:40,400 it I mean people should keep fighting 1220 00:49:37,720 --> 00:49:43,040 for Ross I know people who helped get 1221 00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:46,040 him out of the supermax don't give up 1222 00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:47,520 you because I I hope I'm wrong but I 1223 00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:50,319 think he's kind of [ __ ] just because 1224 00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:51,839 of the Prejudice and this view of 1225 00:49:50,319 --> 00:49:54,559 anybody who's good with computers as 1226 00:49:51,839 --> 00:49:56,359 being some kind of like Evil dark wit I 1227 00:49:54,559 --> 00:49:58,079 mean 1228 00:49:56,359 --> 00:50:00,640 hackers and the computer crowd that 1229 00:49:58,079 --> 00:50:02,960 they're the new witches as far as you 1230 00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:05,480 know and doj sees anything any kind of 1231 00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:08,119 digital currency anything they just see 1232 00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:10,040 it as criminal and and also just a 1233 00:50:08,119 --> 00:50:11,119 threat to their their control the 1234 00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:13,040 financial 1235 00:50:11,119 --> 00:50:14,400 system we have to prove that it's 1236 00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:16,440 criminal you know this is where we have 1237 00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:18,920 an opportunity you know like we 1238 00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:21,440 mentioned earlier there's no there's no 1239 00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:23,799 standards in these digital forensics 1240 00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:25,960 through this case we have a prime 1241 00:50:23,799 --> 00:50:28,440 opportunity lined up you know the line 1242 00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:30,040 up on the tea for us to really challenge 1243 00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:32,480 ke analysis and their relationship with 1244 00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:34,760 the government the government's used 1245 00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:37,440 this inaccurate blockchain eristics to 1246 00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:39,440 block people up now this is the first 1247 00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:40,720 time that's ever come about and you know 1248 00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:43,920 who knows when the next time will be 1249 00:50:40,720 --> 00:50:43,920 because all these to go to 1250 00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:52,119 pleased so there's there's a lot of uh 1251 00:50:48,559 --> 00:50:56,119 people here who know quite a bit about 1252 00:50:52,119 --> 00:50:58,960 digital opsc and uh you know 1253 00:50:56,119 --> 00:51:01,079 everybody might focus on things like guy 1254 00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:04,240 getting burned by his own Google Glasses 1255 00:51:01,079 --> 00:51:07,839 or you know uh people buying and selling 1256 00:51:04,240 --> 00:51:10,839 drugs using crypto via text message or 1257 00:51:07,839 --> 00:51:13,240 something that's already compromised but 1258 00:51:10,839 --> 00:51:16,160 I would very much appreciate if you guys 1259 00:51:13,240 --> 00:51:18,400 could comment on the old school 1260 00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:21,799 techniques of just keeping yourself off 1261 00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:24,799 the radar I'm old enough to remember 1262 00:51:21,799 --> 00:51:27,200 like the how to never get arrested again 1263 00:51:24,799 --> 00:51:29,079 because know you they used to have this 1264 00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:31,119 vog about weed I don't know if I 1265 00:51:29,079 --> 00:51:33,400 remember you know people couldn't smoke 1266 00:51:31,119 --> 00:51:35,119 weed back in the day like but if you 1267 00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:36,839 could just bring up so there's a lot of 1268 00:51:35,119 --> 00:51:38,520 young people watching this right now who 1269 00:51:36,839 --> 00:51:41,480 don't know about the old school 1270 00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:43,599 techniques of just not getting on the 1271 00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:45,839 radar in the first place we got we gotta 1272 00:51:43,599 --> 00:51:49,440 give this one to the 1273 00:51:45,839 --> 00:51:52,079 OG don't put yourself on the 1274 00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:55,040 radar should 1275 00:51:52,079 --> 00:51:57,240 well well you know this thing just like 1276 00:51:55,040 --> 00:51:58,680 with um what's so crazy about this Kings 1277 00:51:57,240 --> 00:52:00,920 is he wasn't putting himself on the 1278 00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:04,280 radar he wasn't doing anything and that 1279 00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:04,280 that's what I think is 1280 00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:13,599 so other K you 1281 00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:20,280 know a lot of the guys who I I've wed 1282 00:52:17,799 --> 00:52:22,480 who got popped mou off a lot or they 1283 00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:25,680 bragged and and and there's something 1284 00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:27,920 else man like um you could be real 1285 00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:29,880 really really really good but the really 1286 00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:33,000 really good people that I W to got 1287 00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:35,799 popped they made one mistake they made 1288 00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:38,720 one mistake and you make one mistake in 1289 00:52:35,799 --> 00:52:40,920 in this world in in computer land and 1290 00:52:38,720 --> 00:52:43,119 then they got you and then other times 1291 00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:45,760 people be with explicable stuff like um 1292 00:52:43,119 --> 00:52:47,480 I had a guy who did this all this really 1293 00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:50,119 cut of really interesting work but he 1294 00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:53,040 painted for his you know secret European 1295 00:52:50,119 --> 00:52:54,920 server uh with his own credit card 1296 00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:57,000 adding his own name or the other thing 1297 00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:59,040 you see happened is people they they set 1298 00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:01,799 up accounts before they even got into 1299 00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:03,760 stuff or whatever and they forgot about 1300 00:53:01,799 --> 00:53:05,200 them like it's and that's what's 1301 00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:07,799 incredible to me about this case when we 1302 00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:12,960 seized all this computer there's not a 1303 00:53:07,799 --> 00:53:15,920 trace on any Stu of him 1304 00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:17,280 doing people I talk to have never seen 1305 00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:20,440 that 1306 00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:21,799 before like yeah keep a low profile 1307 00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:25,319 because I mean I think the lesson of 1308 00:53:21,799 --> 00:53:28,599 this case is is again going to mano and 1309 00:53:25,319 --> 00:53:30,280 privacy is like they just grab you if 1310 00:53:28,599 --> 00:53:33,440 they just see you you don't even want to 1311 00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:35,160 be seen and I think that's why you 1312 00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:38,079 people are here I think this is 1313 00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:40,839 important because it it's like you're 1314 00:53:38,079 --> 00:53:42,799 innocent people get drowned by the 1315 00:53:40,839 --> 00:53:45,559 government I know that for a fact and 1316 00:53:42,799 --> 00:53:48,119 that's what this case is not and so you 1317 00:53:45,559 --> 00:53:50,440 should just be laying low man and like 1318 00:53:48,119 --> 00:53:53,040 covering your tracks even if you're PS 1319 00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:53,040 The Driven 1320 00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:58,240 sow yeah 1321 00:53:55,920 --> 00:54:01,280 um everybody's support on this one you 1322 00:53:58,240 --> 00:54:03,000 know the $50 $100 donations you know 1323 00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:06,359 from everybody really adds up and 1324 00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:08,119 supports room because you know he was 1325 00:54:06,359 --> 00:54:10,079 feeling terrible a couple of weeks ago 1326 00:54:08,119 --> 00:54:12,040 you know he was just so D you know it's 1327 00:54:10,079 --> 00:54:13,599 locked up in this prison Virginia and 1328 00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:15,480 we're over to Europe and and he get to 1329 00:54:13,599 --> 00:54:16,559 hold a tour cell phone and you know tell 1330 00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:18,040 him about all the support that's 1331 00:54:16,559 --> 00:54:19,319 starting to come up for him how is how 1332 00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:20,960 his words starting to spread you know 1333 00:54:19,319 --> 00:54:22,200 people are making t-shirts over there 1334 00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:24,480 people are going on radio shows and 1335 00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:26,760 podcasts and TV talking about this you 1336 00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:29,040 know about Roman you know you can see 1337 00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:30,400 fight and you he fight and spirit coming 1338 00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:32,400 up looking forward to this trial you 1339 00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:34,880 know and then it it's built right and 1340 00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:37,640 then a couple of days ago we get this 1341 00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:39,119 plea offer from the government right and 1342 00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:40,599 Rowan calls us we're talking about the 1343 00:54:39,119 --> 00:54:41,880 plea I want to hear about the plea you 1344 00:54:40,599 --> 00:54:43,240 know I want to talk about the case for 1345 00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:44,960 taking this [ __ ] you know I'm like 1346 00:54:43,240 --> 00:54:47,040 that's the [ __ ] right attitude man 1347 00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:49,559 let's [ __ ] go let's take down Shan 1348 00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:50,839 alysis let's take down doj on this on 1349 00:54:49,559 --> 00:54:55,920 you 1350 00:54:50,839 --> 00:54:57,640 know that's great uh so there's this uh 1351 00:54:55,920 --> 00:55:00,839 wallet called Samurai wallet they have a 1352 00:54:57,640 --> 00:55:03,839 wh poool and these people insist that 1353 00:55:00,839 --> 00:55:05,640 they're bulletproof from any kind of Us 1354 00:55:03,839 --> 00:55:09,319 action I well I know it can be kangaroo 1355 00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:11,680 court and all that but um is is that but 1356 00:55:09,319 --> 00:55:14,920 I've also seen a lot of mixing sites go 1357 00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:16,760 down even outside of this one and so is 1358 00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:18,160 the problem with the other mixing site I 1359 00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:20,319 mean there's also this come from this 1360 00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:22,839 judge you mentioned that said that 1361 00:55:20,319 --> 00:55:25,359 mixing is not illegal in the States but 1362 00:55:22,839 --> 00:55:26,799 is the problem with all the all thex 1363 00:55:25,359 --> 00:55:29,880 that have gotten arrested that they 1364 00:55:26,799 --> 00:55:32,640 actually take custody of your coins and 1365 00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:34,640 then give them back to you or is is that 1366 00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:36,039 has that been the problem well it it it 1367 00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:40,319 appears that every 1368 00:55:36,039 --> 00:55:42,319 time a mixer like helix or or a bank 1369 00:55:40,319 --> 00:55:44,200 like Liberty reserve from Costa Rica 1370 00:55:42,319 --> 00:55:45,799 that gets taken out with the United 1371 00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:47,520 States government they're taking that 1372 00:55:45,799 --> 00:55:49,200 entire data set and giving it to chain 1373 00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:52,480 analysis to try to make chain analysis 1374 00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:54,720 stronger you know and these other uh 1375 00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:57,520 analytical firms like oxt wallet you 1376 00:55:54,720 --> 00:56:00,319 know breadcrumbs you know their data 1377 00:55:57,520 --> 00:56:03,039 sets show a different story so we can 1378 00:56:00,319 --> 00:56:05,280 take the same wallet address and we can 1379 00:56:03,039 --> 00:56:06,400 put it through oxt and it'll have a 1380 00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:08,119 different result than when we put it 1381 00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:09,880 through breadcrumbs and I would love to 1382 00:56:08,119 --> 00:56:12,000 try CH analysis reactor but you know 1383 00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:14,920 they don't give us any access to it they 1384 00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:17,280 a black box government surveillance chm 1385 00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:18,400 but uh you know I think that s wall they 1386 00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:19,559 they're doing great things you know they 1387 00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:20,760 they're trying to help us on the case 1388 00:56:19,559 --> 00:56:22,240 these are the kinds of people guys from 1389 00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:25,000 o guys from breadcrumbs these are the 1390 00:56:22,240 --> 00:56:26,960 mindes that are behind us that these are 1391 00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:28,280 people who are invested in taking down 1392 00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:30,359 chainalysis because they're a 1393 00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:31,640 chainalysis editor and we're kind of 1394 00:56:30,359 --> 00:56:33,200 just letting them take it and run with 1395 00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:34,799 it and you know if they find something 1396 00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:37,359 great show it to us we'll try to present 1397 00:56:34,799 --> 00:56:40,640 it in court and free it in 1398 00:56:37,359 --> 00:56:44,359 man I would use a cial 1399 00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:48,640 mix I just based on this case just to 1400 00:56:44,359 --> 00:56:51,839 take it full circle back to Monero 1401 00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:53,920 motopia would you suggest using Monero 1402 00:56:51,839 --> 00:56:56,599 does does Bitcoin put you at risk of 1403 00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:59,359 being FSE ly accused of 1404 00:56:56,599 --> 00:57:01,079 crims yeah and actually was some of the 1405 00:56:59,359 --> 00:57:03,680 only digital currency that the 1406 00:57:01,079 --> 00:57:06,280 government didn't seize was mon out and 1407 00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:07,960 we were actually able that was great we 1408 00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:10,839 were actually able to get his Monero and 1409 00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:15,000 fund the case a little 1410 00:57:10,839 --> 00:57:17,520 bit yep yeah yeah had yes on an old 1411 00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:18,960 account the government uh they didn't 1412 00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:20,359 they didn't seize it you know and we put 1413 00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:22,400 it on his financial statement and we 1414 00:57:20,359 --> 00:57:24,280 transferred it into uh the firm's crypto 1415 00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:25,760 accounts and then the government comes 1416 00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:27,559 out us said they're like where's this 1417 00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:29,319 money coming from for his defense we're 1418 00:57:27,559 --> 00:57:31,760 like it's it's his own money man you 1419 00:57:29,319 --> 00:57:36,200 know it was that was bizarre man like I 1420 00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:37,960 it's it's what's the they had to ask the 1421 00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:40,640 problem there's it's like really 1422 00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:43,079 irrational it's not a rational process 1423 00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:44,599 and that's the one thing people don't 1424 00:57:43,079 --> 00:57:45,720 understand because they think oh doj all 1425 00:57:44,599 --> 00:57:47,680 these people they see all these shows 1426 00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:50,359 that these people are rational 1427 00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:50,359 completely [ __ ] 1428 00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:55,960 irrational guys I think when is the 1429 00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:57,200 trial when is the September 14th it's 1430 00:57:55,960 --> 00:57:59,839 probably going to take about a month in 1431 00:57:57,200 --> 00:58:02,359 Washington DC please come if you're in 1432 00:57:59,839 --> 00:58:05,200 DC because we need people to fill our 1433 00:58:02,359 --> 00:58:07,400 side of the courtroom um and we'll be 1434 00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:10,079 we've got what a Blog going on the 1435 00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:11,720 geyser uh site if you go to our website 1436 00:58:10,079 --> 00:58:13,440 we'll have updates and everything and 1437 00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:15,720 you can we'll be around all weekend the 1438 00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:19,319 website has donation links for regular 1439 00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:21,720 old Bitcoin lightning Bitcoin Monero and 1440 00:58:19,319 --> 00:58:24,799 Fe it so in any way you guys want to 1441 00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:26,280 support we love it I know Roman needs it 1442 00:58:24,799 --> 00:58:27,920 you know and the more money we get the 1443 00:58:26,280 --> 00:58:29,559 more moneyy we have to fight these guys 1444 00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:31,119 they have an unlimited budget so it's 1445 00:58:29,559 --> 00:58:32,640 kind of like you know David and Goliath 1446 00:58:31,119 --> 00:58:34,480 kind of fight we're dealing with here 1447 00:58:32,640 --> 00:58:35,480 but thank you all for coming out and 1448 00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:38,359 thank you for the interest you're 1449 00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:39,200 showing with da I know ran appreciate so 1450 00:58:38,359 --> 00:58:42,039 thank 1451 00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:44,760 you thank you guys awesome job greatly 1452 00:58:42,039 --> 00:58:44,760 appreciate it 1453 00:58:46,350 --> 00:58:51,760 [Music] 1454 00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:56,720 guys 1455 00:59:00,640 --> 00:59:09,559 [Music]