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FanDuel Nation · Q & A, Hosted by Jay Nordlinger

0:00
SPEAKER_02: Hello, everyone, and welcome to Q&A.
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SPEAKER_02: I'm Jay Nordlinger, and today our podcast is a sportscast.
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I'm joined by my two main gurus,
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David French,
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the New York Timesman,
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and SEC Haas.
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SPEAKER_02: and Vivek Dave, the corporate high flyer and Motor City bad boy.
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SPEAKER_02: Hey, you two, good to see you.
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SPEAKER_02: And I don't mean to sound like the Oscar person on the red carpet,
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SPEAKER_02: but Vivek,
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SPEAKER_02: what are you wearing?
0:29
SPEAKER_02: What are you sporting there?
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SPEAKER_00: This is St.
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SPEAKER_00: Ignatius High School in Chicago.
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SPEAKER_00: This is the alma mater of
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uh current and future of five of my nephews and one niece so
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i'm representing uh
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saint ignatius chicago if there's any anyone out there well
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that is uh saint
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ignatius chicago is right not far from de la salle chicago
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where my uh my youngest
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daughter goes to goes down schools yeah yeah there you go all
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part of the same
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SPEAKER_00: parochial family yep yep yep okay good good shout out for them
1:06
SPEAKER_01: David, what does your hat signify?
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SPEAKER_01: So this is I got this at the Museum of the American Revolution,
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SPEAKER_01: which everyone should go to at least once.
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SPEAKER_01: It's really great.
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SPEAKER_01: It's in it's in Center City, Philly, not far from Independence Hall.
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SPEAKER_01: And this is the George Washington battle flag hat.
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In other words,
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the star here was the star that was on George Washington's
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battle flag.
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SPEAKER_01: in the revolution, the six-pointed star.
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SPEAKER_01: And if what I was told in the museum is correct,
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SPEAKER_01: I'm just regurgitating what I read and saw in the museum,
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that this was a star that was considered for the star for the
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American flag,
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SPEAKER_01: a six-pointed star instead of five.
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SPEAKER_01: But no, I love it.
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SPEAKER_01: I think it's cool.
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SPEAKER_01: And everyone asks, and I get to talk about George Washington.
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SPEAKER_01: So win-win.
1:53
SPEAKER_02: Well, we have a less happy subject now.
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SPEAKER_01: Sports is less happy.
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SPEAKER_01: Well, for this year, for this year.
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SPEAKER_02: No, sports is marvelous.
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SPEAKER_02: I was going to start with gambling.
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SPEAKER_03: Oh, yes.
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And we can all quote that line from Casablanca uttered by
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Captain Renault.
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SPEAKER_02: I looked it up.
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SPEAKER_02: I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here.
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SPEAKER_02: And so...
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SPEAKER_02: I don't pretend to be shocked because gambling is as old as sports.
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SPEAKER_02: And here in America, one might think of the Black Sox scandal of 1919.
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SPEAKER_02: So I don't pretend this is something new.
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SPEAKER_02: But now it's so easy, so widespread.
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SPEAKER_02: It's ubiquitous,
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SPEAKER_02: and I think it's really bad,
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SPEAKER_02: and I would as a social conservative,
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SPEAKER_02: but I just think it's something like a nationwide affliction.
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SPEAKER_02: I wonder what you two think.
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SPEAKER_02: David, start us off.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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I'm glad we're starting with this because I actually think if
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you're looking at a
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SPEAKER_01: history of sports written 50 years from now,
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SPEAKER_01: this is going to be story number one.
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I think that if you're going to have a historian's eye view of
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what's happening now
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SPEAKER_01: in the world of sports,
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that what's happening with gambling is going to be looked back
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on as an inflection
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SPEAKER_01: point and hopefully a...
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SPEAKER_01: A brief detour that we went down a particular road,
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SPEAKER_01: realized it was pretty dreadful and snapped back.
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SPEAKER_01: But I'm very worried, Jay.
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SPEAKER_01: And I'll tell you this.
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SPEAKER_01: I'll just open with a confession that at first,
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SPEAKER_01: when sports gambling became much more broadly legalized,
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SPEAKER_01: I wasn't particularly alarmed.
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SPEAKER_01: I sort of had this view that it's been happening.
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SPEAKER_01: It's going to happen.
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SPEAKER_01: You know, making it into a more open and transparent process is...
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SPEAKER_01: Maybe gonna be better.
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SPEAKER_01: And by the way, it could sound kind of fun.
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SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm a huge sports fan.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm exactly the mark, Jay.
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I am the profile of the person who could destroy his life on
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sports gambling
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SPEAKER_01: because I'm competitive and I follow sports closely,
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SPEAKER_01: but not professionally.
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So I have an inflated view as almost all like really hardcore
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sports fans do.
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SPEAKER_01: We all have an inflated view of our own expertise.
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SPEAKER_01: And so that's exactly the person who's going to think,
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SPEAKER_01: oh,
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SPEAKER_01: I've got – Vegas is totally wrong about this spread.
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SPEAKER_01: Or I know what LeBron's going to do in the next two to three games.
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And so I remember getting one of those – I can't remember if it
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was FanDuel or
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SPEAKER_01: whatever,
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SPEAKER_01: but they give you like free money to start.
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SPEAKER_01: And I lost it all in maybe –
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SPEAKER_01: four hours.
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SPEAKER_01: And then I realized, okay, this is not, I do not need to be doing this.
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But then as I sort of looked at what was happening around me
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and especially with
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SPEAKER_01: young men,
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SPEAKER_01: I realized that this is actually getting kind of scary.
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SPEAKER_01: Like the level of intensity
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SPEAKER_01: with which people were picking up on this.
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And then as you began to get more stories and some of them
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initially rumors,
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like this is really altering the way the players are
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experiencing life because
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SPEAKER_01: they're getting threats now related to their in-game performance,
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SPEAKER_01: not because they helped the team or not,
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but because they didn't score enough points or they missed a
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free throw or they
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made a free throw they should have missed that was all related
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to these in-game
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SPEAKER_01: bets.
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SPEAKER_01: And you began to see that, okay, this distortion is getting extreme.
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SPEAKER_01: And then the indictments start coming.
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SPEAKER_01: And you begin to realize that,
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SPEAKER_01: okay,
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SPEAKER_01: this is by legalizing it,
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SPEAKER_01: we just took the lid off of something that had been not...
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SPEAKER_01: super contained,
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SPEAKER_01: but somewhat contained,
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and is now just breaking out everywhere to the point where it's
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not unusual to see
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people isolating individual players in highlights and isolating
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individual plays
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SPEAKER_01: and saying,
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SPEAKER_01: is there some evidence right there of rigging or fixing a bet?
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And so now we are even beginning to lose confidence in the
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integrity of what we're watching.
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SPEAKER_01: And I don't think we're done with indictments here, guys.
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SPEAKER_01: I don't think we're done.
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I don't think what's happened is the FBI has swooped in and
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sort of rooted out the corruption.
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SPEAKER_01: And now we can go forward, FanDuel away, guys.
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SPEAKER_01: No, I think it's much more tip of the iceberg.
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And I'm very worried about what's coming in the next three to
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five years when it
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SPEAKER_01: comes to additional indictments,
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SPEAKER_01: revelations.
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SPEAKER_01: It's just deeply corrupting, deeply corrupting.
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SPEAKER_01: And and so I have made a complete change from curiosity.
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SPEAKER_01: Oh, this could be interesting to failed experiment already.
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SPEAKER_01: It's pretty clear.
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SPEAKER_01: So I'm very worried about it.
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SPEAKER_01: Vivek Dave.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I agree.
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SPEAKER_00: It's interesting.
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SPEAKER_00: Something has to change.
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SPEAKER_00: I think the toothpaste is out of the tube, though.
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SPEAKER_00: I don't think we're going back.
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SPEAKER_00: I think, you know, we can make corrections, you know, here and there.
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SPEAKER_00: But,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: living here in the Detroit area,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: when I turn on a Pistons game,
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SPEAKER_00: every single commercial is either a personal injury law firm or FanDuel,
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SPEAKER_00: BetVegas,
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SPEAKER_00: BetMGM,
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SPEAKER_00: one of these things,
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SPEAKER_00: right?
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SPEAKER_00: And you've got celebrities touting these...
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SPEAKER_00: online casino, online gaming sites.
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SPEAKER_00: And yeah,
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SPEAKER_00: to David's point,
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SPEAKER_00: I think in 50 years,
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SPEAKER_00: we're going to look back on it,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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the same way that celebrities were pumping the tobacco industry
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and and and doing
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SPEAKER_00: all that.
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SPEAKER_00: Right.
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SPEAKER_00: It didn't, you know, didn't realize the dangers of it.
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SPEAKER_00: Now you look back, you're like, oh, my goodness, I cannot believe it.
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SPEAKER_00: And if you were
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SPEAKER_00: a celebrity cashing checks at the time, right?
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SPEAKER_00: That was just normal.
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SPEAKER_00: And I think it's the same thing going on right now.
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SPEAKER_00: You have reputable,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: you got Wayne Gretzky,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: on these,
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SPEAKER_00: I don't even know who he's sponsoring,
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SPEAKER_00: but one of these online casinos,
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SPEAKER_00: I always see it on TV.
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SPEAKER_00: So it's, it's disturbing.
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SPEAKER_00: And what bothers me the most is,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: I think in pro sports,
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SPEAKER_00: they can,
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SPEAKER_00: the sports books,
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SPEAKER_00: they can,
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SPEAKER_00: they can do a good job regulating.
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I think the players,
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like there's always going to be some examples of,
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you know,
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players,
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SPEAKER_00: doing something here and there to maybe throw something off.
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SPEAKER_00: What I really wish to be is college, right?
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SPEAKER_00: Because college sports and all these kids, right?
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SPEAKER_00: Like it's so easy to gamble on sports, right?
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SPEAKER_00: Everyone, you know, I've got my phone, you know, looking up at it.
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Used to be you'd have to go through a bookie or to a casino to
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make a bet.
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SPEAKER_00: Now it's on your phone.
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SPEAKER_00: It's so easy.
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SPEAKER_00: And all of these
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Folks that are in college,
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these student athletes,
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they grew up in the cell phone era.
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SPEAKER_00: It is so easy to place bets.
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SPEAKER_00: So now it used to be like you watched a college game.
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SPEAKER_00: You felt like you were at least watching pure competition.
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SPEAKER_00: And now you don't know, right?
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SPEAKER_00: There's so many ways to affect a game.
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SPEAKER_00: And we don't need, you know, David talked about it.
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Like we don't need prop bets about some guy getting five
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rebounds in a game.
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SPEAKER_00: Like why do we have to have that?
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SPEAKER_02: What was that word you used?
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SPEAKER_00: a prop bet.
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SPEAKER_00: So basically like a,
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SPEAKER_00: I don't know how you define it,
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SPEAKER_00: but just kind of like a one-off bet within the game where,
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SPEAKER_00: for example,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: hey,
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SPEAKER_00: tonight Kevin Durant is going to get,
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SPEAKER_00: we're going to say he's going to get
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10 rebounds,
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if he goes over that or under it,
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you can bet on each side of it,
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right?
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SPEAKER_00: Like that's the prop bet, which is so easily influenced by the player.
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It's like betting on the game is not enough to feed the
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addiction,
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if I may.
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SPEAKER_02: You have to... Yes, yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: And those are the most attractive bets because it's just instant, right?
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SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, literally...
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we had the baseball player who was throwing the second pitch of
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the game and you
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SPEAKER_00: could bet on the type of pitch.
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SPEAKER_00: Right.
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SPEAKER_00: And he was and now he's under investigation right now.
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SPEAKER_00: Right.
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SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, is it going to be a slider?
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SPEAKER_00: Is it going to be a curveball?
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SPEAKER_00: Right.
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SPEAKER_00: You can bet on the length of the national anthem.
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SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like things like that that are just so outrageous.
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SPEAKER_00: And, you know, at first I thought, OK, you know,
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SPEAKER_00: like David said, you know, they're legalizing it.
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So this is going to weed out the corruption that comes with the
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gambling world.
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SPEAKER_00: Right.
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SPEAKER_00: We're going to see less influence with organized crime, things like that.
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SPEAKER_00: If anything, this has helped organize crime because so many people are
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out of money from the online gambling they need to go somewhere
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to get it right and
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you're now you're seeing more and more of that infiltrating and
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uh they're you know
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lending money or whatever it is right um and it's it's been a
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boon to to organize
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crime so it's it's been bad all around i don't know how you
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correct it hopefully
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SPEAKER_00: they can
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: fix some pieces of it,
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SPEAKER_00: but it's,
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SPEAKER_00: I feel like it's already,
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SPEAKER_00: we're already too far down the road.
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SPEAKER_00: It's, it's pretty, it's going to get worse.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: These prop bets,
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SPEAKER_01: Jay,
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the thing about the prop bets is it's a couple of things about
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them that are
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SPEAKER_01: particularly pernicious.
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SPEAKER_01: Number one is exactly what Vivek said,
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SPEAKER_01: which is,
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SPEAKER_01: this is stuff that's within the player's total,
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SPEAKER_01: not total control,
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SPEAKER_01: but near total control.
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If you have a,
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let's suppose,
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you know,
10:57
is second pitch going to be a strike or a ball?
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SPEAKER_01: Well, a pitcher can throw a ball if they want to throw a ball.
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If it is a prop bet on any number of things that are in the
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player's control.
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SPEAKER_01: I'll give you a good example.
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I was in an NBA game and sitting real close to the court and
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somebody yelled at one
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SPEAKER_01: of the players,
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SPEAKER_01: hey,
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SPEAKER_01: I bet on you to make first point.
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SPEAKER_01: I need you to hit the first shot.
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So he's like literally telling this player who clearly can hear
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him that I made a
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SPEAKER_01: bet on you to make the first shot.
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And so all of a sudden right there,
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he's attempting to influence the outcome of the bet.
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And where the real corruption gets in is when you have somebody
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you have prop bettors.
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SPEAKER_01: And they,
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SPEAKER_01: let's say,
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SPEAKER_01: will split the winnings with you if you do the,
11:44
SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: if you miss this free throw or if you,
11:48
SPEAKER_01: you know,
11:48
SPEAKER_01: whatever the prop bet's going to be.
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So that's number one how completely corrupting it is because so
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much is in the
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SPEAKER_01: hands of,
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SPEAKER_01: say,
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SPEAKER_01: one player.
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The other thing is it's addictive because the prop bets have
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this like what you
12:01
SPEAKER_01: might call slot machine effect.
12:03
that you just can continually roll into bet after bet after bet
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after bet and get
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that adrenaline high that you'll sometimes see online like some
12:15
of these funny
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SPEAKER_01: reels where guys are just betting on almost anything.
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And there's just this sort of celebration and there's this
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sugar high that you get
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SPEAKER_01: over these just rapid fire bets.
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SPEAKER_01: And so it's both addictive and corrupting.
12:30
And some of the statistics are really rough that 20% of online
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sports bettors
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SPEAKER_01: engage in what's called disordered gambling,
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SPEAKER_01: which is a clear signal.
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SPEAKER_01: that you're in, that you're in danger of gambling addiction.
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Gambling addiction has the highest rate of suicide of almost
12:54
all addictions,
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substantial increase in bankruptcy debt and bankruptcy rates
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and debt in states
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SPEAKER_01: that legalize online sports betting.
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SPEAKER_01: I mean,
13:05
SPEAKER_01: there's a lot of,
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it's not just anecdotal and it's not just evidence of criminal
13:09
indictments.
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SPEAKER_01: There's some systemic evidence that this is causing real problems.
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SPEAKER_02: Veve, do you have another word on this before we move on?
13:17
SPEAKER_00: No, it is.
13:18
SPEAKER_00: I mean, and I'm not one that I've dipped my toes in it.
13:20
SPEAKER_00: Right.
13:21
SPEAKER_00: I'm one of those folks that is the absolute mark for it.
13:24
SPEAKER_00: Right.
13:25
SPEAKER_00: But, you know, it can be fun.
13:27
But then you realize,
13:27
like David said,
13:28
you're like this,
13:29
this could go down a bad road.
13:31
SPEAKER_00: Right.
13:31
SPEAKER_00: It's you know,
13:31
SPEAKER_00: you might put five,
13:32
SPEAKER_00: ten bucks here and there,
13:33
SPEAKER_00: but you talk to people and it's so widespread,
13:36
SPEAKER_00: like everyone is doing it.
13:38
SPEAKER_00: Right.
13:38
SPEAKER_00: And then you talk to people and you think to yourself,
13:40
SPEAKER_00: Maybe you shouldn't be doing, you know, maybe that seems like a lot.
13:44
SPEAKER_00: Right.
13:44
SPEAKER_00: Or that just seems kind of silly.
13:46
SPEAKER_00: Right.
13:46
SPEAKER_00: And then it's it's really just out there.
13:48
SPEAKER_00: It's so prevalent.
13:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's there's a reckoning coming.
13:53
SPEAKER_00: Right.
13:54
I think if it already isn't here in the next three,
13:57
four years,
13:58
it's it's going to get bad.
14:00
Well,
14:00
guys,
14:01
on the subject of college football,
14:02
I want to put something to you.
14:03
SPEAKER_02: And you two know as much about college football as anyone I know.
14:09
SPEAKER_02: You know a great deal about college football.
14:12
SPEAKER_02: And I wonder if,
14:12
SPEAKER_02: gun to your head,
14:14
SPEAKER_02: you could tell me which teams,
14:17
SPEAKER_02: which universities or colleges are in which conferences.
14:21
SPEAKER_02: Are you still able to – Viv, could you?
14:23
SPEAKER_02: I mean, if you can't, no one can.
14:26
SPEAKER_00: It's hard.
14:27
SPEAKER_00: You know, I was looking at the bottom line of scores.
14:30
And I saw,
14:31
oh,
14:31
Arizona and UCLA just a few weeks ago were playing a basketball
14:34
game.
14:35
SPEAKER_00: I go, huh, it seems early for a conference game.
14:37
SPEAKER_00: And then I realized, wait, UCLA is in the Big Ten now.
14:40
So that's actually not – and Arizona,
14:42
I think,
14:42
is in the Big 12 now,
14:44
right?
14:45
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, it would be a fun game to play.
14:48
SPEAKER_00: But it's – yeah, none of it makes sense.
14:51
SPEAKER_02: I forgot it related to other sports, too.
14:52
SPEAKER_02: I don't know why I said college football.
14:54
SPEAKER_02: No, it's across sports.
14:56
SPEAKER_02: So –
14:58
SPEAKER_02: Now that this has been established,
14:59
SPEAKER_02: that everything's weird and new and unfamiliar,
15:03
SPEAKER_02: David,
15:03
SPEAKER_02: is it bad?
15:08
SPEAKER_01: Well, OK, I'm going to be I'm going to say this.
15:13
SPEAKER_01: I think, yes, it's bad, but I think there's a path through.
15:18
SPEAKER_01: So I think what we had was an unsustainable reality, which was.
15:23
SPEAKER_01: a system where players were,
15:27
SPEAKER_01: you know,
15:27
SPEAKER_01: revenue generators on a mass,
15:29
SPEAKER_01: mass,
15:30
SPEAKER_01: mass scale cut out from that revenue generation.
15:34
SPEAKER_01: In other words, you know, the coaches could make millions.
15:36
The players didn't even own their image and likeness when they
15:39
were in college.
15:41
SPEAKER_01: If you were a college athlete,
15:42
you were treated very differently from any other college
15:45
student when it comes to
15:47
SPEAKER_01: sort of your own economic opportunities and flex.
15:50
SPEAKER_01: So, for example, if I...
15:52
SPEAKER_01: if I was recruited to Harvard because I was the rock star AI,
15:57
SPEAKER_01: and I became sort of a tech rock star,
16:02
SPEAKER_01: I could market my name,
16:03
SPEAKER_01: I could market my likeness,
16:05
SPEAKER_01: and there's no issue,
16:06
SPEAKER_01: no problem.
16:07
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
16:07
SPEAKER_01: if you were a cheerleader,
16:09
SPEAKER_01: if you were a cheerleader,
16:10
cheerleaders were making gobs of money becoming influencers and
16:13
things like this.
16:13
So I think you had an exploitation situation that had to change
16:18
in college sports.
16:20
SPEAKER_01: And then,
16:22
What we've done is we've kind of gone from an exploitation
16:25
situation to a wild west
16:28
SPEAKER_01: that is not sustainable.
16:30
SPEAKER_01: That is not sustainable.
16:32
SPEAKER_01: And I think that a lot of people are realizing this.
16:35
SPEAKER_01: The games are still a ton of fun to watch.
16:37
SPEAKER_01: The competition on the field is still really great.
16:40
SPEAKER_01: But there is a systemic problem.
16:43
SPEAKER_01: And I think,
16:44
SPEAKER_01: Jay and Vivek,
16:45
I'd love to get your thoughts on this because I'm going to be
16:47
doing an event in not
16:48
SPEAKER_01: too distant future about
16:50
this NIL issue and what needs to be done because you have
16:54
massive turnover year by
16:55
SPEAKER_01: year in sports and teams.
16:57
It's become you're you genuinely are just rooting for laundry
17:01
often and not,
17:02
SPEAKER_01: you know,
17:02
SPEAKER_01: sticking with players for an extended period of time.
17:05
So I think what's going to happen is you're going to just have
17:07
the greater
17:07
professionalization of college sports where people will come in
17:11
and they sign,
17:12
SPEAKER_01: say,
17:12
SPEAKER_01: a three year contract.
17:14
SPEAKER_02: I am almost through with college sports.
17:18
SPEAKER_02: And I say that almost because I'm always drawn back.
17:21
Of course,
17:21
how can we be following these things at the age of three or so?
17:26
SPEAKER_02: But on this issue of the conferences, Vivek, someone made a point to me.
17:30
SPEAKER_02: I can't remember who it was.
17:32
SPEAKER_02: Maybe it was even you or Rahul.
17:34
SPEAKER_02: But someone was saying that...
17:36
If UCLA and Rutgers are in the same conference,
17:39
are they in the same conference,
17:40
by the way?
17:41
SPEAKER_00: Yes, they are.
17:42
SPEAKER_02: Southern California to New Jersey.
17:46
When one team travels to the other guy's place,
17:50
that's missing a lot of days.
17:54
SPEAKER_02: Before,
17:54
I guess you drove from Ann Arbor to Columbus or maybe across
17:59
the lake to Madison
18:01
SPEAKER_02: and maybe way beyond to
18:03
minnesota but you were within shouting distance but my goodness
18:09
southern california
18:10
new jersey yeah it's um yeah and this was let's not pretend
18:16
this wasn't 100
18:16
predicated on football right this is totally driven by football
18:21
it's one game a
18:22
week but what they didn't really take into account was what
18:25
about all the other
18:26
SPEAKER_00: sports right and to your point right it used to be
18:29
SPEAKER_00: If you grew up in the Midwest and your kid was an athlete,
18:32
let's say you had a daughter that was a volleyball player and
18:35
you were from
18:36
SPEAKER_00: Indiana,
18:36
you could probably drive to every one of her games and get back
18:40
within eight,
18:42
SPEAKER_00: nine hours,
18:42
SPEAKER_00: whatever.
18:43
SPEAKER_00: Maybe Minneapolis is your furthest drive or something like that.
18:46
SPEAKER_00: But now forget it, right?
18:48
SPEAKER_00: I mean, yeah.
18:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
18:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
18:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
18:51
SPEAKER_00: Right.
18:51
But like maybe that's an overnighter,
18:53
you know,
18:53
and you get back or something.
18:54
SPEAKER_00: Right.
18:55
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it's completely gone by the wayside.
18:59
SPEAKER_00: And it's it's 100 percent on football.
19:00
SPEAKER_00: I think we're about, you know, five years away from just two conferences.
19:06
SPEAKER_00: The Big Ten, the SEC are pulling away and absorbing everyone else.
19:10
SPEAKER_00: And they're just going to be like they get their own college tournament.
19:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it'll just be pro, right?
19:17
SPEAKER_00: Just semi-pro or whatever, a lighter version.
19:20
SPEAKER_00: It might even be more pro than pro because there's no rules, right?
19:24
SPEAKER_00: You can do whatever you want.
19:25
SPEAKER_00: There's no free agency period.
19:27
SPEAKER_00: There's no draft.
19:29
SPEAKER_00: It is totally the Wild West right now.
19:32
SPEAKER_02: Well, guys, I'm gonna bring up another issue and then give you a memory.
19:37
SPEAKER_02: So please bear with me.
19:38
SPEAKER_02: So this Lane Kiffin,
19:40
SPEAKER_02: coach of Ole Miss,
19:41
SPEAKER_02: and he's been there for several years and very successful.
19:44
SPEAKER_02: And he's had this very successful season with them.
19:47
And the regular season ends and then he goes off to LSU to
19:51
assume the LSU head coach job.
19:54
And so he's not coaching his team at the end of what I consider
19:59
the season.
20:00
SPEAKER_02: And to me, it's so weird.
20:01
SPEAKER_02: But of course, as an Ann Arbor kid, I had a flashback, a memory.
20:06
SPEAKER_02: Vivek and I have talked about this in recent days,
20:08
SPEAKER_02: but you probably know,
20:10
SPEAKER_02: not probably,
20:10
SPEAKER_02: you definitely know,
20:11
SPEAKER_02: David.
20:12
SPEAKER_02: And so it was 1989,
20:14
SPEAKER_02: and the Michigan basketball team was pretty good,
20:16
SPEAKER_02: and our coach was Bill Frieder.
20:18
SPEAKER_02: And he accepted a job with ASU.
20:21
SPEAKER_02: And people like me say, fine.
20:23
SPEAKER_02: Our season's about to end.
20:24
SPEAKER_02: We'll have March Madness.
20:26
SPEAKER_02: He'll coach at ASU next year.
20:28
SPEAKER_02: And then we'll have some other coach.
20:30
SPEAKER_02: And it's okay.
20:31
SPEAKER_02: Coaches have a right to leave.
20:32
SPEAKER_02: No coach is a hostage.
20:34
SPEAKER_02: I wish this news had been consummated after our season, but...
20:39
SPEAKER_02: But anyway,
20:40
SPEAKER_02: so Bo Schemacher,
20:41
SPEAKER_02: the athletic director,
20:42
SPEAKER_02: dismisses Bill Frieder and says,
20:45
SPEAKER_02: you know,
20:46
SPEAKER_02: a Michigan man is going to coach a Michigan team.
20:48
SPEAKER_02: And I guess the number one assistant was promoted, Steve Fisher.
20:52
SPEAKER_02: Michigan went on to win the NCAA tournament.
20:55
SPEAKER_02: So that makes it extra interesting, but that's not really the point.
21:00
SPEAKER_02: And I remember in this case of this guy,
21:01
SPEAKER_02: this Kiffin,
21:03
SPEAKER_02: a simpleton like me said,
21:05
SPEAKER_02: I'm not being falsely modest,
21:06
SPEAKER_02: but on these issues,
21:07
SPEAKER_02: I really am fairly simple.
21:09
SPEAKER_02: It just doesn't seem, it just seems so, your season's cresting.
21:13
SPEAKER_02: You're driving toward the end.
21:14
SPEAKER_02: It's all very exciting.
21:16
SPEAKER_02: You may even win the national championship.
21:18
SPEAKER_02: I have no idea how good Ole Miss is.
21:20
SPEAKER_02: I may be way off.
21:21
SPEAKER_02: But just, and it just seems like such a, it seems so wrong to me.
21:26
SPEAKER_02: Just, and I realize I'm a creature of the 20th century.
21:29
SPEAKER_02: I'm a dinosaur, but, so I'm through with my monologue.
21:35
SPEAKER_02: David French, talk to me.
21:37
SPEAKER_01: So there's so much about this story that I hate,
21:41
although I do not think this is a story of the problems of
21:44
modern college football.
21:45
SPEAKER_01: I think in modern college sports,
21:47
SPEAKER_01: Jay,
21:48
SPEAKER_01: that going back to that story,
21:50
SPEAKER_01: this is an old story in college sports.
21:52
SPEAKER_01: And this is one of the sort of original arguments for the
21:56
SPEAKER_01: the unfairness that players experience compared to coaches.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: Coaches have always had this mobility.
22:02
Coaches have always had this ability to make,
22:03
you know,
22:04
large,
22:04
fast sums of money.
22:06
SPEAKER_01: And so this is an old school college sports program.
22:09
SPEAKER_01: It's a problem.
22:10
It's almost like a great little throwback compared to gambling
22:13
and NIL and everything else.
22:16
SPEAKER_01: But there's a couple of questions here.
22:18
SPEAKER_01: One is,
22:21
SPEAKER_01: Why does the coaching change have to happen now?
22:26
In other words,
22:27
if LSU is wanting to pursue Lane Kiffin,
22:30
why does it launch the pursuit?
22:32
SPEAKER_01: Right.
22:33
SPEAKER_01: I mean, even before the season is over.
22:36
SPEAKER_01: So you've got this dance between LSU and Kiffin.
22:39
SPEAKER_01: And regardless of how this thing ends,
22:42
SPEAKER_01: where,
22:42
SPEAKER_01: you know,
22:43
SPEAKER_01: Kiffin wants to coach,
22:44
SPEAKER_01: but for a million understandable reasons,
22:47
SPEAKER_01: Ole Miss wouldn't want him to coach while he's
22:49
while he's also got one eye in lsu i mean there's a million
22:53
understandable reasons
22:54
why did this all have to unfold now i mean this is this is you
22:59
know and i'm sure
22:59
that why doesn't the coach say talk to me after i finish my yes
23:03
we're doing exactly
23:04
i got a season going on here and we're coming to the climax
23:07
it's a critical it's a
23:08
crescendo yeah exactly so that's one of my chief questions here
23:13
why does this all
23:13
SPEAKER_01: unfold now um and then you know i'm i'm with you jay i i think
23:20
There is this,
23:21
and I actually had the,
23:22
I'm gonna go meta here for a minute.
23:25
SPEAKER_01: And I had this really interesting conversation yesterday,
23:29
SPEAKER_01: a Zoom conversation with a guy who's really thinking through cultivating
23:34
SPEAKER_01: leadership.
23:35
SPEAKER_01: And I said,
23:35
one of the biggest problems we have in this country is we have
23:40
cultivated leaders,
23:41
we have cultivated and mentored young people towards
23:44
accomplishment more than
23:45
SPEAKER_01: character.
23:47
SPEAKER_01: And when you cultivate someone towards accomplishment,
23:51
SPEAKER_01: you create this exact kind of mercenary sort of outlook.
23:55
SPEAKER_01: Well,
23:55
SPEAKER_01: of course,
23:56
SPEAKER_01: if in the pecking order,
23:58
SPEAKER_01: even though I have elevated Ole Miss and we're in the playoff,
24:01
SPEAKER_01: but in the traditional pecking order,
24:03
SPEAKER_01: LSU is way above Ole Miss in the college football pecking order.
24:07
SPEAKER_01: Well, then of course you go to LSU.
24:09
And of course you go when LSU calls because you've been
24:12
cultivated towards accomplishment.
24:14
But if you're cultivated towards character,
24:17
it's a very different kind of mental calculus.
24:20
SPEAKER_02: And plus you can raise Mississippi to the LSU level.
24:25
SPEAKER_01: Which they did this year.
24:26
SPEAKER_02: These levels weren't established at the dawn of time.
24:30
SPEAKER_02: It happened through winning, correct?
24:33
Well,
24:33
it happened through winning,
24:34
but also there are some resource disparities,
24:37
arguably.
24:37
SPEAKER_01: But I do think that,
24:40
SPEAKER_01: but if you're cultivating towards character,
24:41
SPEAKER_01: there's a very different way and form of leadership.
24:44
SPEAKER_01: And so what traditionally,
24:47
and this is one of the reasons why I had this conversation with
24:49
Jordan Peterson
24:51
SPEAKER_01: several months ago.
24:52
SPEAKER_01: And I said, we're talking about male mentors.
24:55
SPEAKER_01: And I said,
24:55
SPEAKER_01: the best male mentors,
24:56
SPEAKER_01: some of the best mentors I've ever known are football coaches.
24:59
SPEAKER_01: And some of the worst mentors I've ever seen are football coaches.
25:03
SPEAKER_01: Because a good coach mentor teaches about self-sacrifice,
25:08
SPEAKER_01: physical courage,
25:10
SPEAKER_01: really about building community and brotherhood.
25:15
SPEAKER_01: Good football coach mentors are phenomenal.
25:18
SPEAKER_01: Bad football coach mentors, it's about...
25:21
SPEAKER_01: you know, punishment, violence.
25:24
You know,
25:24
it's about,
25:25
it's about,
25:26
you know,
25:27
getting what's yours,
25:28
dominating,
25:29
et cetera.
25:30
SPEAKER_01: And you get this sense that when you've got like a Lane Kiffin character,
25:35
SPEAKER_01: what you're talking about is a guy who at the end of the day,
25:38
SPEAKER_01: it's like,
25:41
SPEAKER_01: And I'm just a striber, man.
25:44
SPEAKER_01: How high can I get on that ladder?
25:47
SPEAKER_01: And I think the irony of it all,
25:48
SPEAKER_01: and then I'll stop my monologuing,
25:50
SPEAKER_01: is that ultimately,
25:52
character-based leadership is the kind of leadership that
25:55
ultimately endures and
25:58
SPEAKER_01: results in truly meaningful and enduring accomplishments.
26:02
SPEAKER_01: So even though you're not cultivating for accomplishment,
26:05
SPEAKER_01: you're cultivating for character,
26:07
SPEAKER_01: at the end of the day,
26:08
the end result in the aggregate is that cultivating for
26:12
character actually results
26:14
SPEAKER_01: in more meaningful accomplishment.
26:16
SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, anyway, that's my sort of like side rant.
26:20
SPEAKER_01: Sorry about that.
26:21
SPEAKER_01: Not at all.
26:21
SPEAKER_01: That's what we're here for.
26:23
SPEAKER_02: Vivek P. Dave.
26:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm not a, I mean, I'm not a Kiffin guy, but I also think
26:29
SPEAKER_00: You know,
26:29
we're kind of long past the time where we can really get on a
26:34
guy for taking a
26:35
SPEAKER_00: better job.
26:36
SPEAKER_00: Right.
26:36
SPEAKER_00: I think an LSU is one of those jobs where the timing that I get that.
26:43
SPEAKER_00: But I think that's.
26:44
SPEAKER_00: It's just what it is.
26:45
SPEAKER_00: It's now like we know what the recruiting cycles are, right?
26:48
SPEAKER_00: You know,
26:48
SPEAKER_00: if a top program wants a coach,
26:51
they have to get them in place before National Signing Day so
26:55
that they can get
26:55
SPEAKER_00: their recruiting class.
26:56
SPEAKER_00: They can get players maybe from their old school, right?
27:00
SPEAKER_00: If they're worthy of coming to the new school.
27:03
And LSU is one of those jobs where you can just fall ass
27:05
backwards into a national
27:06
SPEAKER_00: championship.
27:07
SPEAKER_00: Like you don't have to be this amazing X's and O's coach.
27:11
SPEAKER_00: The recruiting there just does it for itself.
27:13
SPEAKER_00: They had Ed Orgeron won a national championship.
27:15
SPEAKER_00: Les Miles won a national championship.
27:16
SPEAKER_00: These guys didn't do anything after they left LSU, right?
27:19
SPEAKER_00: Nick Saban obviously won a national championship.
27:21
SPEAKER_00: He was a pretty good coach after that.
27:23
But it's one of those programs where,
27:26
you know,
27:26
it's like I remember,
27:28
you know,
27:28
growing up,
27:29
You know,
27:29
we had a sportscaster in Detroit,
27:32
Bernie Smilovitz,
27:33
and he was great.
27:35
And he left for a job in New York,
27:38
right,
27:38
to be the whatever the New York affiliate was.
27:42
SPEAKER_00: At the time, I was like, oh, you've got to be kidding me.
27:44
SPEAKER_00: Like, why is he taking that job?
27:45
SPEAKER_00: Right.
27:45
SPEAKER_00: You know, my mind, I'm thinking like, that's no better.
27:48
SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, the same thing happened.
27:50
SPEAKER_00: We had a columnist,
27:50
SPEAKER_00: Michael Rosenberg,
27:51
SPEAKER_00: for the Detroit Free Press,
27:52
SPEAKER_00: who left for a job for The New York Times.
27:54
SPEAKER_00: And we were all put off by it.
27:56
SPEAKER_00: As I get older, like that was a better job.
27:58
SPEAKER_00: Right.
27:59
SPEAKER_00: You know, and nowadays with the players,
28:01
it used to be like you felt bad right because they were stuck
28:04
they couldn't go
28:05
anywhere they can go anywhere they want now they can follow him
28:08
possibly to lsu and
28:09
david said it earlier these guys are one-year mercenaries now
28:12
anyway they're going
28:13
to go to the next nil gig they're not stuck like they used to
28:17
be i think it used to
28:17
be when a coach left these guys were in the lurch they had
28:20
nowhere to go and they
28:21
were you know kind of the victims in this now the players have
28:24
full autonomy so
28:26
SPEAKER_00: I think it's lessened.
28:28
SPEAKER_00: You still don't like it if you're on the other side of it.
28:32
But yeah,
28:32
I think we're kind of long past getting upset about this kind
28:35
of stuff.
28:37
SPEAKER_02: Well, guys, Vivek gave me an idea.
28:41
SPEAKER_02: Nick Saban,
28:43
SPEAKER_02: he might have another job left in him,
28:45
SPEAKER_02: and the Michigan Wolverines job is open,
28:49
SPEAKER_02: and maybe Nick would like to crown his career in Ann Arbor.
28:53
So there's been this awful situation in Ann Arbor at Michigan
28:57
with the head coach,
28:58
SPEAKER_02: Sharon Moore,
29:00
SPEAKER_02: caught in very bad behavior,
29:02
SPEAKER_02: and he
29:03
SPEAKER_02: I think it's really a story about sin and normal human frailty.
29:10
But it's also a story about sports and college football,
29:14
and it's pretty miserable.
29:17
SPEAKER_02: Veve, what do you have to say about this?
29:20
SPEAKER_00: I have a lot, but I'm more interested in your thoughts, Jay, as an alum.
29:26
SPEAKER_00: Just what's happened the last...
29:29
SPEAKER_00: Three days,
29:31
SPEAKER_00: you know,
29:31
the guy went from coaching in the biggest college football game
29:35
of the season every
29:35
SPEAKER_00: year,
29:36
SPEAKER_00: not even two weeks ago.
29:37
And,
29:38
you know,
29:38
yesterday he's on a Zoom call doing a hearing in a prison
29:43
jumpsuit.
29:45
SPEAKER_00: Curious.
29:45
SPEAKER_00: You're just what your thoughts are.
29:49
SPEAKER_02: I wish I had something to say.
29:51
SPEAKER_02: It's just it's so human.
29:54
SPEAKER_02: And I've seen this a lot.
29:57
SPEAKER_02: Usually people aren't as well known as Sharon Moore.
30:00
SPEAKER_02: They're less high profile.
30:01
SPEAKER_02: It's just, especially when sex is involved, it's just...
30:09
SPEAKER_02: You know, it's very odd for me.
30:10
SPEAKER_02: I don't know what to say.
30:12
SPEAKER_02: I really don't.
30:16
SPEAKER_02: This is as old as time.
30:18
SPEAKER_02: And people are bedeviled by this.
30:21
And I've seen one person after another destroy himself or
30:25
herself through things like this.
30:27
And I can only hope for redemption and second chances and third
30:30
chances and fourth
30:31
SPEAKER_02: chances and all that and getting straightened out.
30:35
um i think that his dismissal was right uh because i think
30:39
there was violence
30:40
involved or the threat of violence criminality you know so i
30:46
don't think there's
30:46
any question of of retaining him that's but i just i hope he
30:51
gets better and i hope
30:53
this won't be the last sort of public act of his life i hope
30:56
there'll be reform and
30:57
SPEAKER_02: another job and
30:58
I think,
30:59
look,
31:00
you guys know how much I know about football,
31:03
which is not very much.
31:04
SPEAKER_02: I know some.
31:05
It seemed to me that he was a good coach,
31:07
maybe not a Hall of Fame coach,
31:08
but a good coach.
31:09
SPEAKER_02: And I guess I feel bad about it.
31:12
SPEAKER_02: I wish I had something more profound to say.
31:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's sad.
31:17
SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, the business of college football is such that
31:23
SPEAKER_00: I think if he had won,
31:24
SPEAKER_00: and this is speculation,
31:26
SPEAKER_00: I think if he had won the Ohio State game,
31:27
SPEAKER_00: I don't think you'd heard about this story.
31:29
SPEAKER_00: I think it became something that from all I've heard around here.
31:35
SPEAKER_02: But there was an arrest, right?
31:36
SPEAKER_02: And a public hearing.
31:38
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
31:39
SPEAKER_00: But you couldn't sweep that under the rug, I wouldn't.
31:41
SPEAKER_00: Well, no, because maybe it came to light.
31:45
SPEAKER_00: because of pressure from the inside in the last week.
31:48
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I see.
31:49
SPEAKER_00: And then that caused this chain of events,
31:52
SPEAKER_00: which eventually led to him doing what he did to get arrested.
31:56
SPEAKER_00: But it's very possible that had they won the Ohio State game,
32:00
SPEAKER_00: because according to the reports,
32:02
SPEAKER_00: this investigation has been going on for months.
32:04
SPEAKER_00: Oh, really?
32:04
SPEAKER_00: It just came to light this week, right?
32:07
SPEAKER_00: Stories kind of changed.
32:09
I admit to you,
32:09
I haven't read the reports that headlines and subheadings were
32:12
kind of enough.
32:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:13
SPEAKER_00: It's been salacious, but the, so I think, you know, but, you know,
32:19
SPEAKER_00: had he won that game and they were preparing for a playoff.
32:21
SPEAKER_00: I don't think this is even a story right now.
32:23
SPEAKER_00: I think it's swept under the rubber cap.
32:25
SPEAKER_00: Right.
32:26
I think this is one of those things where it came to light
32:29
because he lost the game
32:30
SPEAKER_00: and now you have a reason to make a change.
32:32
SPEAKER_00: Right.
32:33
SPEAKER_00: And then it completely, uh, you know, it came out in a major way.
32:36
SPEAKER_00: I don't think they expected him to react the way he did.
32:39
SPEAKER_02: I think David French and I would both say, um,
32:45
SPEAKER_02: For a lot of people, if a candidate wins, that excuses everything.
32:49
SPEAKER_02: What?
32:51
SPEAKER_01: Jay, has that ever happened?
32:52
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
32:56
SPEAKER_02: David, add anything you like, David.
32:58
SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry I'm so weak on this subject.
33:01
SPEAKER_01: It's incredibly, incredibly sad.
33:03
SPEAKER_02: You'll find it all in the Bible, yeah.
33:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's just incredibly sad.
33:07
I mean,
33:07
you know,
33:08
I think firing him for this an affair with the staffer is fully
33:12
justified.
33:13
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
33:13
SPEAKER_01: And then the meltdown that he had afterwards is just horrible.
33:18
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
33:19
SPEAKER_01: And it's one of those things from a distance.
33:20
Do you is it is it mental health or is it actually just this is
33:24
a bad guy?
33:24
SPEAKER_01: You know, there's a lot of a lot of questions you don't know.
33:28
SPEAKER_01: But I don't know if this is too soon,
33:31
but I have a funny comment that was on the Athletic website to
33:34
read that this is...
33:36
SPEAKER_01: So it says,
33:38
SPEAKER_01: something I regularly fail to grasp is how people in very busy,
33:41
highly complex jobs manage to even get there while also
33:45
managing a double life.
33:46
I have a very undemanding full-time job in a family and I can
33:52
barely manage to wash
33:53
SPEAKER_01: pots and pans.
33:54
SPEAKER_01: These dudes are out there running recruiting,
33:56
SPEAKER_01: managing,
33:57
SPEAKER_01: coaching staffs,
33:58
SPEAKER_01: game prep,
33:58
SPEAKER_01: press interviews,
33:59
and somehow have the bandwidth for amassing a cache of OnlyFans
34:03
follows on a burner
34:04
SPEAKER_01: IG account,
34:05
SPEAKER_01: have an affair with a staffer,
34:06
SPEAKER_01: payout for an abortion,
34:08
SPEAKER_01: etc.
34:08
SPEAKER_01: And then this last line kills me.
34:10
Like,
34:11
half my week falls apart if I have to return a pair of pants
34:14
that don't fit.
34:15
SPEAKER_02: No, I won't do it, in fact.
34:18
SPEAKER_02: I'll just not use the pants.
34:20
SPEAKER_02: I won't even bother with that.
34:23
SPEAKER_02: No, that's so true.
34:24
SPEAKER_02: That,
34:24
SPEAKER_02: by the way,
34:24
SPEAKER_02: not to get into intelligence history in the spook world,
34:28
SPEAKER_02: but that's why so many spies and double agents crater.
34:31
SPEAKER_02: It's just too hard to sort of keep track of everything.
34:34
SPEAKER_02: The last thing I want to say on this subject is this,
34:36
SPEAKER_02: that there are,
34:38
SPEAKER_02: as in all other walks of life,
34:39
SPEAKER_02: there are princes in coaching.
34:41
SPEAKER_02: My grandfather.
34:43
SPEAKER_02: John Wooden, Tom Izzo, John Beeline, the princess.
34:50
SPEAKER_02: But others are less princely.
34:54
SPEAKER_02: It's just very human.
34:57
SPEAKER_00: I think, though, what we have to be careful, though, of is...
35:02
SPEAKER_00: thinking that these guys are perfect, right?
35:04
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
35:05
SPEAKER_00: I would love to think that Tom Mizo and John Beeline,
35:08
SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
35:08
SPEAKER_00: and I don't want to,
35:09
SPEAKER_00: you know,
35:10
SPEAKER_00: crown them and build a statue.
35:13
SPEAKER_02: They just seem so admirable.
35:14
SPEAKER_00: I agree.
35:15
SPEAKER_00: I agree.
35:15
But now I think it's like we're constantly used to being
35:18
disappointed by these guys
35:20
SPEAKER_00: that,
35:21
SPEAKER_00: you know,
35:21
SPEAKER_00: we build statues,
35:22
SPEAKER_00: you know,
35:22
SPEAKER_00: look at,
35:23
SPEAKER_00: you know,
35:24
SPEAKER_00: Paterno and Bo and all these guys and then stuff comes out later.
35:28
SPEAKER_00: So it's very dangerous.
35:32
SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure Bo was guilty in the same way Paterno was.
35:35
SPEAKER_02: Anyway, those are big subjects.
35:37
SPEAKER_02: Guys, Notre Dame.
35:40
SPEAKER_02: Notre Dame is complaining about being excluded from the college playoff.
35:44
SPEAKER_02: I shouldn't comment.
35:46
SPEAKER_02: I don't know enough about it.
35:47
SPEAKER_02: But my reaction wasn't very friendly to Notre Dame.
35:51
SPEAKER_02: Maybe I'm wrong.
35:52
SPEAKER_02: Veve?
35:54
I'm shocked because I just assumed that the playoff committee
35:58
was always in the bag
35:59
SPEAKER_00: of the TV ratings,
36:00
SPEAKER_00: folks.
36:00
SPEAKER_00: Right.
36:01
SPEAKER_00: And so I Notre Dame gets eyeballs.
36:06
SPEAKER_00: So I was actually pleasantly surprised.
36:07
SPEAKER_00: I don't think Notre Dame deserved to be in.
36:09
SPEAKER_00: Maybe they did.
36:10
SPEAKER_00: You know, they lost to Miami head to head.
36:12
SPEAKER_00: It was early in the season.
36:14
SPEAKER_00: And that was the team that that knocked them out of the playoff.
36:18
SPEAKER_00: I think Notre Dame was worthy of being in the playoff.
36:19
But I just for the longest time,
36:22
I've just given up on the playoff committee.
36:24
You know,
36:24
I just assume they always took the big name team right over
36:27
someone else.
36:28
SPEAKER_00: Right.
36:28
SPEAKER_00: Just in the interest of ratings.
36:29
SPEAKER_00: And Miami is a big program, too, but not like Notre Dame.
36:32
So I was I was I was pleasantly surprised that they didn't go
36:37
in favor of of the
36:39
SPEAKER_00: the traditional big name program for once.
36:42
SPEAKER_01: David.
36:44
SPEAKER_01: Prime of your river, Notre Dame.
36:46
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you're, you, yeah, you did win.
36:49
SPEAKER_01: You did go on an almighty winning streak there at the end of the year,
36:52
SPEAKER_01: but I mean,
36:52
SPEAKER_01: the last,
36:53
SPEAKER_01: you know,
36:53
SPEAKER_01: the,
36:54
SPEAKER_01: you're,
36:54
SPEAKER_01: you did have a great 10 game winning streak,
36:57
SPEAKER_01: but you've got one ranked win.
36:59
SPEAKER_01: One at home against not even that great of a ranked team.
37:04
And,
37:05
and look,
37:05
I mean,
37:05
10 and two is a record to be proud of a hundred percent.
37:09
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
37:10
SPEAKER_01: But there are just other teams that were more accomplished.
37:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
37:13
SPEAKER_01: You know, and it's same thing with Texas.
37:16
SPEAKER_01: Cry me a freaking river, Texas.
37:18
You know,
37:18
look,
37:18
you've got some high quality wins,
37:20
but you went and you got walloped.
37:22
SPEAKER_01: You got smacked by Florida and Florida was horrible this year.
37:26
SPEAKER_01: And I mean, Kentucky destroyed Florida this year.
37:30
SPEAKER_01: What is happening?
37:32
SPEAKER_01: And you lost to Florida.
37:33
SPEAKER_01: And look, I get it.
37:34
SPEAKER_01: You can make these arguments about strength of schedule, et cetera.
37:37
SPEAKER_01: But if you didn't lose to one of the worst teams in the SEC,
37:41
SPEAKER_01: You're in the playoff.
37:42
SPEAKER_01: That's not even an issue.
37:44
SPEAKER_01: You're in.
37:45
SPEAKER_01: So,
37:46
SPEAKER_01: you know,
37:47
I'm kind of really tired of all these people who'd be floating
37:49
around at like an
37:50
SPEAKER_01: 11-12 seed if they were going to be in,
37:53
SPEAKER_01: just feeling like they're super entitled to it.
37:56
SPEAKER_01: Now,
37:57
SPEAKER_01: you know,
37:58
SPEAKER_01: I've grown to have some affection for Vandy football,
38:01
SPEAKER_01: which you never would have convinced me of years ago.
38:04
SPEAKER_01: I've never been a big Vandy guy.
38:07
SPEAKER_01: But I thought they had as good a case for it as Notre Dame or Texas.
38:13
SPEAKER_01: But I have absolutely no problems with the current field.
38:17
And I do think it's actually kind of fun to have these
38:19
controversies about who's in,
38:20
who's out.
38:21
SPEAKER_01: And I wouldn't necessarily love to see an expansion to 16 teams.
38:26
Because at some point,
38:27
like the fight over the 17th versus the 16th just gets boring,
38:31
you know.
38:32
SPEAKER_01: But no,
38:34
it reminds me of the old school bowl controversies and the old
38:38
school ratings
38:38
SPEAKER_01: controversies before we had the playoff.
38:41
SPEAKER_01: And it's kind of fun to participate in it.
38:43
But the bottom line is if Notre Dame had taken care of business
38:47
on the field,
38:48
SPEAKER_01: they'd be in the playoff.
38:49
SPEAKER_01: Same with Texas.
38:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
38:50
The one good thing about this,
38:51
sorry,
38:52
Jay,
38:52
but about the expanded playoff is...
38:55
SPEAKER_00: that when you're arguing over the 12th and 13th team,
38:57
SPEAKER_00: no one cares after the first weekend,
38:59
SPEAKER_00: right?
38:59
SPEAKER_00: It's like the NCAA tournament,
39:01
SPEAKER_00: but the team that doesn't get in,
39:02
SPEAKER_00: that was on the bubble after the first weekend,
39:04
SPEAKER_00: no one cares,
39:05
SPEAKER_00: right?
39:05
SPEAKER_00: Because that team probably wasn't going to win the title anyway.
39:08
SPEAKER_00: So it's a mood point.
39:09
Now in the old days when it was two teams or four teams,
39:12
yeah,
39:12
it was a big deal.
39:13
SPEAKER_00: Whoever got shut out, right?
39:15
SPEAKER_00: You're taking a team that could win it.
39:16
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, now it's like, who cares after the first weekend?
39:21
SPEAKER_02: Guys,
39:21
SPEAKER_02: in your view,
39:22
SPEAKER_02: has the college playoff,
39:25
SPEAKER_02: the college football playoff system rendered bowl games kind of jokes?
39:34
SPEAKER_02: Maybe that's too harsh.
39:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they are jokes.
39:37
SPEAKER_00: Maybe the word... That's right, yeah.
39:40
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, I jumped in there, but yeah.
39:42
SPEAKER_02: Do you think they ought to be discontinued, Vive, or...?
39:46
SPEAKER_00: They're...
39:48
SPEAKER_00: They're exhibition games now, right?
39:50
SPEAKER_00: If it's not a playoff game,
39:52
SPEAKER_00: anyone who,
39:54
unless they're being compensated specifically to play in that
39:57
game for some reason,
39:58
SPEAKER_00: if they have any sort of NFL prospects,
40:01
SPEAKER_00: they're not going to play in the game and risk an injury in that game.
40:06
SPEAKER_00: These guys aren't you're not going to see your best.
40:08
SPEAKER_00: It's basically a tune up.
40:09
SPEAKER_00: It's almost like an extra spring game at this point.
40:11
SPEAKER_00: Right.
40:12
SPEAKER_00: You want to get young guys to play and you get the extra practice time.
40:16
SPEAKER_00: But they used to be so fun and meaningful.
40:19
SPEAKER_00: Right.
40:19
SPEAKER_00: New Year's Day,
40:21
SPEAKER_00: you know,
40:22
conference versus conference and every game mattered and guys
40:26
didn't sit out these
40:26
SPEAKER_00: games.
40:27
And yeah,
40:28
now like the thing is,
40:29
they're not going away because they make money,
40:31
right?
40:32
Like there's money's going into people's pockets who organize
40:34
these games.
40:35
SPEAKER_00: It's still people tune in and watch.
40:37
SPEAKER_00: They think that, you know, the games still matter.
40:40
SPEAKER_00: So from that standpoint, they're not going anywhere.
40:42
But yeah,
40:42
the same thing with the conference championship games too,
40:44
right?
40:45
SPEAKER_00: The Big Ten, you know, they might matter.
40:47
SPEAKER_00: The Big Ten championship last week,
40:49
SPEAKER_00: Indiana versus Ohio State,
40:50
SPEAKER_00: it was one versus two,
40:51
SPEAKER_00: but it was actually a meaningless game,
40:52
SPEAKER_00: right?
40:53
SPEAKER_00: Because both teams were...
40:55
Locked into the top four of the playoff and they had to play an
40:59
extra tough game.
41:01
SPEAKER_00: Right.
41:02
SPEAKER_00: And risk injury and and risk their chances in the playoffs.
41:05
SPEAKER_00: So,
41:06
SPEAKER_00: you know,
41:06
it used to be you had to win your conference to get into the
41:08
playoff when it was a
41:09
SPEAKER_00: four team in that situation.
41:11
SPEAKER_00: But,
41:11
SPEAKER_00: you know,
41:12
SPEAKER_00: a one versus two matchup in the Big Ten championship,
41:14
SPEAKER_00: it was it was actually a meaningless game last week.
41:16
SPEAKER_00: I bet both teams would have rather have just sat it out.
41:20
SPEAKER_01: David, do you concur generally?
41:23
SPEAKER_01: You know, there is no question the games mean much less.
41:28
SPEAKER_01: I mean...
41:29
SPEAKER_01: And they used to mean quite a bit.
41:32
I remember very distinctly going to Nashville Music City Bowl
41:35
when Kentucky played
41:37
SPEAKER_01: Clemson for its first bowl appearance in years.
41:40
And then I was there when we won our first bowl game in maybe
41:43
20,
41:44
25 years.
41:45
SPEAKER_01: It had been a long time.
41:48
SPEAKER_02: And the we was University of Kentucky.
41:50
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
41:51
SPEAKER_01: Were you living in Georgetown, Kentucky?
41:53
SPEAKER_01: I was in, this was when we had moved to Tennessee.
41:56
SPEAKER_01: So I was to the music city bowl.
41:57
I just drive up to Nashville and go and had,
42:02
it was,
42:03
it was so fun to win that game.
42:04
SPEAKER_01: It was, and it felt so meaningful.
42:06
SPEAKER_01: First bowl victory.
42:08
SPEAKER_01: And,
42:08
SPEAKER_01: you know, 20-whatever years.
42:11
SPEAKER_01: Now,
42:12
SPEAKER_01: okay,
42:13
SPEAKER_01: you want to win because you want to win everything,
42:16
SPEAKER_01: whether it's an exhibition or not.
42:18
But the idea that I would leave a Music City Bowl with a
42:20
Kentucky win going,
42:22
SPEAKER_01: man,
42:22
SPEAKER_01: this is just a great life moment,
42:24
SPEAKER_01: like I felt then.
42:26
SPEAKER_01: It's just no way.
42:29
SPEAKER_01: I think now...
42:31
SPEAKER_01: you know,
42:31
SPEAKER_01: what's really meaningful for second tier teams,
42:34
SPEAKER_01: the teams that don't make the playoffs is your big regular season wins.
42:38
So,
42:39
you know,
42:39
when Kentucky went down and beat Ole Miss at Ole Miss last
42:42
year,
42:42
that's a big win.
42:43
SPEAKER_01: That was bigger than anything that was possible in a bowl game.
42:46
SPEAKER_01: And so I think that the, Beeb said it very well.
42:50
SPEAKER_01: I don't think they're going away so long as they make money,
42:52
but I do wonder how long they'll make money so long as they
42:54
don't matter because
42:56
SPEAKER_01: exhibition game attendance,
42:59
SPEAKER_01: unless you're,
42:59
SPEAKER_01: you know,
43:00
SPEAKER_01: the super megawatt sport that is the NFL,
43:03
SPEAKER_01: where they will get a lot of people like at preseason games.
43:08
You know,
43:08
there's a reason people don't pack out exhibitions is they
43:12
don't actually count.
43:13
SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, I'm sorry, sorry.
43:16
SPEAKER_02: I'm wondering what does pack out mean?
43:19
SPEAKER_01: Does that mean fill this?
43:20
SPEAKER_01: Oh, in other words, fill up the stadiums.
43:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
43:23
SPEAKER_00: I'm not even sure that matters, though.
43:24
SPEAKER_00: I think it's just the TV, right?
43:26
I think,
43:26
you know,
43:27
like Michigan and Texas are going to play each other in the
43:30
Citrus Bowl.
43:31
SPEAKER_00: People will watch that game.
43:33
SPEAKER_00: They'll tune in, right?
43:34
SPEAKER_00: There might not be the first stringers out there.
43:36
SPEAKER_00: People don't know that, right?
43:38
SPEAKER_00: They see the helmets.
43:38
They're going to watch the game and,
43:40
you know,
43:41
it'll get good ratings,
43:42
right?
43:42
SPEAKER_00: But the stadium might be half full, right?
43:45
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's like,
43:46
You watch the NCAA tournament the first round,
43:48
those games are empty,
43:49
right?
43:50
SPEAKER_00: But the TV, the eyeballs are on the TV, right?
43:52
SPEAKER_00: So I think, you know, that's not going anywhere.
43:56
Well,
43:56
guys,
43:57
we've had a good meaty discussion,
43:59
and I think I'd like to leave it here.
44:01
But before we go,
44:02
we haven't touched on the NFL or the NBA or college basketball.
44:08
And before we go,
44:09
I just wonder whether you guys,
44:11
you'd like to say something about –
44:13
SPEAKER_02: Any of that, anything you think is important or interesting.
44:18
SPEAKER_02: I realize I put you on the spot here.
44:21
SPEAKER_02: David, do you... Jay.
44:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, please.
44:23
SPEAKER_01: Why are you trying to hurt me so badly?
44:25
SPEAKER_02: Because... You having a bad season somewhere?
44:28
SPEAKER_01: Everywhere.
44:28
SPEAKER_01: Everywhere.
44:29
SPEAKER_01: Oh, no.
44:30
SPEAKER_01: Your Grizzlies aren't so hot.
44:31
SPEAKER_01: I haven't been following.
44:32
SPEAKER_01: My Grizzlies have been torn apart by controversy, injuries, ridiculous.
44:36
SPEAKER_01: Is John Moran even trying?
44:38
SPEAKER_01: Jaron Jackson even trying right now?
44:40
SPEAKER_01: Oh, no.
44:41
SPEAKER_01: It's bad.
44:41
SPEAKER_01: It's bad.
44:41
SPEAKER_03: Oh, no.
44:42
And then my Titans are probably the worst team in the NFL for
44:46
the second year in a row.
44:47
SPEAKER_01: Oh, no, man.
44:48
SPEAKER_01: Painful.
44:50
SPEAKER_01: But I will say I am enjoying the heck out of watching slim down Luca play
44:55
SPEAKER_01: basketball for the Lakers.
44:56
SPEAKER_01: He has been amazing.
45:00
SPEAKER_01: And then this emergence of Austin Reeves from undrafted, like undrafted.
45:06
SPEAKER_01: And now he's averaging in the high 20s, had a 50 point game.
45:11
SPEAKER_01: I love his nickname, Hillbilly Kobe.
45:13
SPEAKER_01: It's hilarious.
45:17
One of the things as I get older is I'm more a fan of the
45:21
sports overall than I used to be.
45:25
SPEAKER_01: Even when my teams are struggling,
45:26
SPEAKER_01: as they are badly,
45:28
SPEAKER_01: I love to latch on to good storylines and follow good storylines.
45:32
SPEAKER_01: I still have a great time watching the NBA and NFL.
45:35
SPEAKER_01: It's just that...
45:36
SPEAKER_01: It's against the backdrop of hopelessness, sadness.
45:40
SPEAKER_02: I want to tell you something.
45:41
SPEAKER_02: I want to tell you guys something.
45:42
SPEAKER_02: I didn't mention this last year because who am I to talk about fitness?
45:48
SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm not a great model, but I was watching Luca.
45:52
SPEAKER_02: and he was a little chubby,
45:54
SPEAKER_02: but the thing is,
45:55
SPEAKER_02: he seemed so tired,
45:57
SPEAKER_02: seemed so gassed,
45:59
SPEAKER_02: and it was affecting his shooting,
46:00
SPEAKER_02: I could tell.
46:01
SPEAKER_02: I mean, this wasn't a looks or vanity thing.
46:04
SPEAKER_02: Luca looked great to me, chubby or not, but he was tired.
46:08
SPEAKER_02: He was really,
46:09
SPEAKER_02: really tired,
46:12
SPEAKER_02: and as you guys know,
46:13
SPEAKER_02: the legs have a lot to do with shooting a basketball,
46:16
SPEAKER_02: although that may not be obvious to the first-timer.
46:20
SPEAKER_02: Anyway, I
46:22
SPEAKER_02: I meant my remark to be lighter than it came out, but I did notice this.
46:27
SPEAKER_02: VPD?
46:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
46:29
SPEAKER_00: I think,
46:30
SPEAKER_00: you know,
46:31
SPEAKER_00: the Luka trade,
46:32
SPEAKER_00: you know,
46:33
SPEAKER_00: it's going to go down as one of the worst trades,
46:35
SPEAKER_00: obviously,
46:35
SPEAKER_00: for the Mavericks.
46:36
SPEAKER_00: But I don't know if you get skinny Luka if he's still in Dallas, right?
46:39
SPEAKER_00: I think,
46:40
SPEAKER_00: you know,
46:40
SPEAKER_00: it took the,
46:42
SPEAKER_00: it's like when you break up with someone,
46:44
SPEAKER_00: someone always gets in better shape after the breakup,
46:46
SPEAKER_00: right?
46:46
SPEAKER_00: It's like they're just,
46:47
SPEAKER_00: They're staying in relationship.
46:49
SPEAKER_00: No one, no one changes.
46:50
SPEAKER_00: Right.
46:50
SPEAKER_00: So this is one of those things where I think Luca needed this to,
46:54
SPEAKER_00: to be able to,
46:55
SPEAKER_00: to kind of change the trajectory of his career.
46:58
SPEAKER_00: It's been,
46:59
SPEAKER_00: it's been really good for him,
47:00
SPEAKER_00: but Jade,
47:01
SPEAKER_00: uh,
47:02
SPEAKER_00: you know,
47:02
SPEAKER_00: I know,
47:03
SPEAKER_00: I know David is having,
47:04
SPEAKER_00: uh,
47:04
SPEAKER_00: you know,
47:05
SPEAKER_00: problems in Memphis.
47:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
47:08
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
47:08
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
47:09
SPEAKER_00: the Detroit Pistons are,
47:10
SPEAKER_00: are 21 and five,
47:12
SPEAKER_00: I think as of this record,
47:13
SPEAKER_00: 20 and five.
47:14
SPEAKER_00: And, uh,
47:15
SPEAKER_02: And we deserve it, David.
47:17
SPEAKER_02: We've been down for so long.
47:18
Just a fun team,
47:20
a fun team of a bunch of guys who are under 25,
47:24
who hustle like hell.
47:25
SPEAKER_00: They play defense.
47:27
SPEAKER_00: They're deep.
47:28
SPEAKER_00: They share the ball.
47:30
SPEAKER_00: Cade Cunningham is becoming a superstar in front of our eyes.
47:33
SPEAKER_00: He's only 24 years old.
47:35
SPEAKER_00: Jalen Dern is 22, a Memphis guy.
47:37
SPEAKER_00: Asar Thompson is 22.
47:37
SPEAKER_00: Jaden Ivey is 23, 24, whatever he is.
47:45
SPEAKER_00: Super young, super fun team.
47:47
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, we deserve it because we were in such a dark place for so long.
47:52
SPEAKER_00: So I don't know what they're going to do.
47:53
SPEAKER_00: Ultimately,
47:54
my expectations for the season was I just hope they can finish
47:57
in the top four in
47:58
SPEAKER_00: the East.
47:58
SPEAKER_00: But the East is wide open, right?
48:00
You've got,
48:01
you know,
48:02
with with Halliburton hurt in Indiana and Tatum out in Boston.
48:07
SPEAKER_00: You know,
48:07
it's really like there could be a path to to going deep in the
48:12
East playoffs for
48:13
SPEAKER_00: the Pistons.
48:13
SPEAKER_00: So why not?
48:15
SPEAKER_02: Vivek, I confess I'm so spoiled.
48:18
I'm just a spoiled brat because our Detroit Lions were pretty
48:21
much the worst
48:22
SPEAKER_02: franchise in professional sports for decades.
48:24
SPEAKER_02: And then we started to win.
48:26
And so when we don't win every game or we have more than two or
48:29
three losses,
48:30
I feel all pouty.
48:31
SPEAKER_00: Right.
48:32
SPEAKER_02: I'm sort of ashamed of myself, but that's the way I feel.
48:35
SPEAKER_02: What do you say about our Lions?
48:36
yeah yeah we uh i still remember the dark days so i don't take
48:40
anything for granted
48:41
so i'm still happy that we're we're in the playoff race but
48:44
around here it's it's
48:45
doom and gloom you know i think people got got spoiled i think
48:48
they forgot the last
48:49
50 years uh and assumed that football started two years ago um
48:54
and uh so there's
48:55
still a lot of season left the lions can still make a run they
48:58
keep getting on the
48:59
SPEAKER_00: wrong side of the injury bug here but
49:02
uh there's still time and they're eight and five right it could
49:04
be you know they're
49:05
eight and five with uh four games left in the season all are
49:08
potentially winnable
49:09
games there was a time i would have done cartwheels to be eight
49:12
hundred percent
49:13
hundred percent just to be in the in the conversation of being
49:16
a playoff team i
49:17
SPEAKER_02: would have done cartwheels david final word my friend
49:22
SPEAKER_01: No real final word,
49:23
because as we've dived back in the NBA NFL and I'm hearing you
49:26
all celebrate,
49:27
SPEAKER_01: I'm so happy for you.
49:28
SPEAKER_01: I'm so glad to see that much of your misery is ending.
49:32
SPEAKER_01: And I say, as I feel like,
49:35
I'm in the middle of or only in the front end of what may well
49:41
be a long trek
49:44
SPEAKER_01: through the athletic wilderness.
49:45
David,
49:46
to quote a line from the 1992 presidential campaign,
49:50
Vivek and I feel your pain.
49:52
SPEAKER_02: We really do.
49:53
SPEAKER_01: You do.
49:54
SPEAKER_01: You do.
49:55
SPEAKER_01: So that's why I do not begrudge you your success at all.
49:57
SPEAKER_01: I have a lot of friends from Boston.
49:59
who I can remember being so thrilled for them when the Red Sox
50:03
broke the curse.
50:03
SPEAKER_01: And now I'm so sick of Boston professional sports teams winning titles.
50:10
SPEAKER_01: Like this new resurgence of the Patriots.
50:12
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, come on, guys.
50:15
SPEAKER_01: Couldn't you have wandered in the wilderness for like five more minutes?
50:18
SPEAKER_01: Now you're number one seed.
50:20
SPEAKER_01: What on earth?
50:22
SPEAKER_02: Well,
50:22
SPEAKER_02: ladies and gentlemen,
50:23
I am Jay Nordlinger doing Q&A with two of my favorite people in
50:26
all the world,
50:28
SPEAKER_02: Vivek P.
50:28
SPEAKER_02: Dave and David A.
50:30
SPEAKER_02: French.
50:31
SPEAKER_02: Thanks to them and all of you.