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Roast the Post: Happy Hour... Redux · Roast the Post Podcast

0:10
SPEAKER_00: Hey everybody, Jen and I are circling back like we said we would from our
0:15
SPEAKER_00: experiment where we took your questions in an AMA format from the
0:20
SPEAKER_00: pub in Toronto when Jen was in town.
0:22
SPEAKER_00: There were tons that we didn't get to
0:23
SPEAKER_00: because we had such a great experience talking with everybody
0:26
SPEAKER_00: who attended.
0:26
SPEAKER_00: Thank you again for joining us on our very first
0:30
SPEAKER_00: Substack live.
0:30
SPEAKER_00: We had a bunch of questions we didn't get to and we were
0:33
SPEAKER_00: like, "Ah, these are so cool, these are great questions."
0:38
SPEAKER_00: So, here we are.
0:39
SPEAKER_00: We are coming back to them.
0:41
This is the follow-up from the happy hour Substack live in the
0:44
pub.
0:45
SPEAKER_00: You ready, Jen?
0:46
SPEAKER_01: I'm ready.
0:47
SPEAKER_01: Instead of a glass of white wine, I've got some cold coffee and a half
0:51
SPEAKER_01: drunk protein shake.
0:53
SPEAKER_01: So, a little bit of a different vibe, but we're
0:56
SPEAKER_01: here.
0:56
SPEAKER_01: We're here for it all.
0:58
SPEAKER_00: Cold coffee is definitely the
1:00
SPEAKER_00: Thursday 1:30 p.m. drink of choice on the West Coast, I hear.
1:05
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
1:07
SPEAKER_00: So, first question that we did not get to that I wanted to
1:12
SPEAKER_00: come back to.
1:12
SPEAKER_00: This is a great question.
1:15
SPEAKER_00: It's from Emma and she wrote in ahead of time and said,
1:19
SPEAKER_00: "How can I ensure I'm not just hiring for skills and experience, but also
1:24
SPEAKER_00: for cultural fit and long-term alignment with our company,
1:28
SPEAKER_00: which is really mission-driven?
1:29
SPEAKER_00: I want people who can execute, but also
1:32
SPEAKER_00: who believe in what we're building.
1:34
SPEAKER_00: How do I balance these priorities
1:36
SPEAKER_00: during the interview process?"
1:37
SPEAKER_00: And Emma also said in her submission
1:39
SPEAKER_00: that she was a founder.
1:40
SPEAKER_00: She started a small direct-to-consumer kind of
1:44
SPEAKER_00: subscription e-commerce company.
1:46
SPEAKER_00: So that's like the background context
1:49
SPEAKER_00: for what she asked and it's a great topic to dig into.
1:52
SPEAKER_00: Like, how do you balance cultural fit with the ability to get stuff done?
1:56
SPEAKER_00: What do you think?
1:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this is a really great question
2:00
SPEAKER_01: and it's such a challenge, especially like when you were the founder and
2:04
SPEAKER_01: this is your baby and you care so much about it.
2:09
SPEAKER_01: And all of those things are so important.
2:13
SPEAKER_01: I think that it is really you say you're mission-driven.
2:17
Like,
2:17
what are your values and how do those play into your hiring
2:22
process?
2:23
SPEAKER_01: What do you value more?
2:25
SPEAKER_01: Because you're going to have to make trade-offs.
2:27
SPEAKER_01: Every once in a while, there's that perfect person who can do the job and
2:32
SPEAKER_01: they are a good fit for your organization.
2:35
SPEAKER_01: But that doesn't happen very often.
2:37
SPEAKER_01: So, would you rather have
2:39
someone who is culturally aligned and maybe needs a bit more
2:45
time to get up
2:46
SPEAKER_01: to speed or do you want someone who can hit the ground running and maybe
2:51
SPEAKER_01: they're not quite culturally aligned?
2:53
SPEAKER_01: I could tell you what I would prefer,
2:56
SPEAKER_01: which would be somebody who is more values and mission-aligned and might
3:05
SPEAKER_01: take a little bit longer to learn what they need to to do the job.
3:09
And the reason for that is if you get someone in the
3:11
organization who is a
3:16
SPEAKER_01: cultural atomic bomb, you're screwed.
3:21
SPEAKER_01: And that spreads.
3:22
It spreads so much just like somebody who is like really
3:27
values-aligned and
3:29
SPEAKER_01: just like a great cultural addition to your organization.
3:34
Just how that will spread so will the opposite,
3:39
and it can be detrimental to
3:41
SPEAKER_01: the organization.
3:41
SPEAKER_01: So I think it depends on your team size and your bandwidth
3:45
SPEAKER_01: and how much you have to give to this person to train them to where they
3:48
SPEAKER_01: need to be.
3:49
SPEAKER_01: In terms of how you can kind of assess for that...
3:51
SPEAKER_01: that's a tough one.
3:53
SPEAKER_01: I was recently told about—and I can't remember if we
3:56
SPEAKER_01: discussed this or not—but I looked at a company that does
4:00
SPEAKER_01: not list their values, anywhere on their website or in their job
4:04
SPEAKER_01: postings.
4:05
SPEAKER_01: Because they try to tease that out of the person
4:07
SPEAKER_01: through the interview process.
4:10
SPEAKER_01: And that way they know that it's like
4:12
SPEAKER_01: it's an authentic, values- aligned hire.
4:16
SPEAKER_01: because it's just going to surface through their process instead of
4:19
SPEAKER_01: someone saying, "I align with these values X, Y, and Z" because they read
4:24
SPEAKER_01: it on your socials or on the job posting and they can kind of like
4:29
SPEAKER_01: engineer their interview to tell you all the things that they think you
4:33
SPEAKER_01: want to hear.
4:34
SPEAKER_01: This is a way of surfacing it organically.
4:39
SPEAKER_01: So that's something to play around with as well.
4:42
SPEAKER_01: We could go into the mechanics of what that could look like,
4:45
SPEAKER_01: but I want to give you an opportunity to share your thoughts on Emma's
4:48
SPEAKER_01: really great question.
4:49
SPEAKER_00: That's so fascinating.
4:50
SPEAKER_00: Like a company that deliberately obfuscates their mission, vision,
4:56
SPEAKER_00: values so that they can have kind of honest, organic conversations in
5:03
SPEAKER_00: recruiting.
5:04
SPEAKER_00: That's a huge sacrifice
5:06
SPEAKER_00: because that means that you're not using your MVV to build brand value
5:11
SPEAKER_00: and for purpose-aligned marketing.
5:13
SPEAKER_00: That's a big sacrifice that they've
5:15
SPEAKER_00: purposefully made to be able to do that.
5:18
SPEAKER_00: I kind of get it.
5:19
SPEAKER_00: I kind of dig it.
5:21
SPEAKER_00: I would wonder if the trade-off is worth it in the long run...
5:24
SPEAKER_00: But if it's a very people-oriented company and the success of the
5:29
SPEAKER_00: organization really rests on having those purpose-driven people on the
5:37
SPEAKER_00: bandwagon... maybe it's worth it.
5:39
SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's worth it.
5:40
But you get the gist of it anyway by knowing what the company
5:42
does,
5:43
right?
5:44
SPEAKER_01: Like, you would get the gist of what their values just might be based on
5:49
SPEAKER_01: the organization itself.
5:50
SPEAKER_01: And maybe it's not the mission.
5:52
SPEAKER_01: For this
5:53
SPEAKER_01: instance it was the values... the core values... that were not
5:57
SPEAKER_01: shared ahead of time.
5:58
SPEAKER_01: It's like a secret club, right?
5:59
SPEAKER_01: Like it's very interesting in that way.
6:04
SPEAKER_01: Again, we could do a whole episode on
6:07
SPEAKER_01: that and maybe we should as just kind of an exploration.
6:11
But yeah,
6:11
what about your thoughts on how you kind of gauge for that or
6:12
how
6:13
SPEAKER_01: you make that trade-off or decide what's most important to you?
6:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm kind of in the same camp as you.
6:24
SPEAKER_00: The potential cost of having a hire who is toxic is huge.
6:37
SPEAKER_00: Like, one person who's toxic can derail and kind of pollute the outlook
6:44
SPEAKER_00: and the other people in the organization and cause them to
6:47
SPEAKER_00: get off track too.
6:48
SPEAKER_00: So I would also lean a lot more towards making sure that
6:54
the people dynamic side of it—like the culture and the fit and
6:56
everything—
6:58
SPEAKER_00: is more in place than it is like the get $*&# done part of it.
7:02
SPEAKER_00: Like, small company, yeah, you want people who can get $*&# done.
7:05
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
7:06
SPEAKER_00: But a toxic GSD'er is not going to work out so well for you
7:13
SPEAKER_00: in the long run.
7:14
SPEAKER_00: Where someone who maybe isn't driven but is a spectacular
7:18
SPEAKER_00: fit and can support other people and can create network effects and
7:21
SPEAKER_00: productivity?
7:23
SPEAKER_00: That's a pretty good investment to make,
7:25
SPEAKER_00: even if at the start you know you're not getting as much from them on the
7:29
SPEAKER_00: productivity side as you might like.
7:32
SPEAKER_00: How do you determine that?
7:34
SPEAKER_00: That's the age-old question.
7:36
We've talked about this a lot like the mechanisms that you can
7:38
put in place to
7:40
SPEAKER_00: determine fit.
7:41
SPEAKER_00: You can't do it on paper.
7:43
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely you can't.
7:44
SPEAKER_00: And you can't do it really well through interviews
7:48
even though our system kind of rests on doing interviews to
7:51
figure that sort
7:52
SPEAKER_00: of stuff out.
7:52
SPEAKER_00: I really feel more and more over time that you can really only
7:58
SPEAKER_00: sus out strong cultural fit and strong alignment across a team by having
8:04
SPEAKER_00: candidates with the team to do certain things.
8:07
SPEAKER_00: Again,
8:10
SPEAKER_00: don't be exploitive about it.
8:11
SPEAKER_00: Don't expect people to come in and work with
8:14
SPEAKER_00: your team for a day for free.
8:15
SPEAKER_00: That's just icky.
8:17
But figure out some sort of structure or system where you can
8:20
give people a
8:21
trial that's paid fairly and run them through a process where
8:24
everybody that
8:25
they're going to be working with really gets a sense of how
8:28
they work and how
8:29
SPEAKER_00: the fit and how the vibes are.
8:31
SPEAKER_00: Then talk to all your people and make sure that that's the case.
8:34
And for a small organization,
8:36
it's actually it can kind of be easier to do
8:38
SPEAKER_00: this when you're in a small organization versus when you're
8:41
SPEAKER_00: in a large organization.
8:42
SPEAKER_00: So like don't be scared off by the fact that you're a smaller
8:45
SPEAKER_00: organization and you're founder-led.
8:46
SPEAKER_00: I think that's actually a strength for
8:48
SPEAKER_00: doing like in-person trial days or something like that.
8:52
SPEAKER_01: And I want to speak to a couple of things here.
8:55
SPEAKER_01: One is that I have very strong feelings about cultural fit as a concept,
9:00
SPEAKER_01: to begin with.
9:00
SPEAKER_01: So when I say hiring someone for like fit, I'm not saying
9:05
like if you're a company where everyone goes for a beer
9:08
together on Friday,
9:09
SPEAKER_01: that's cultural fit.
9:12
SPEAKER_01: It's not that.
9:12
SPEAKER_01: You can have very different ways of
9:15
SPEAKER_01: being and still fit into an organization very well.
9:18
SPEAKER_01: That's a question of whether the organization kind of adapts for
9:22
SPEAKER_01: different personalities and is okay with that.
9:25
SPEAKER_01: ... so I just wanted to talk about that for a second...
9:28
SPEAKER_01: and then the other thing you mentioned too, I think that's a really
9:31
SPEAKER_01: good indication of understanding how someone will collaborate.
9:36
SPEAKER_01: What is their collaborative range and how does that work within your
9:40
SPEAKER_01: organization?
9:40
SPEAKER_01: You do that by seeing how people work together.
9:42
SPEAKER_01: Now it can be asynchronously.
9:44
SPEAKER_01: I think that the key here is to make sure that
9:46
you're doing an example like a kind of a case study that's true
9:51
to how you work.
9:52
SPEAKER_01: If you work remotely and asynchronously, then that's how it should be.
9:55
SPEAKER_01: But it should include other members of the team.
9:57
It doesn't have to be like we're going to meet up together in
9:59
person or on a
10:00
SPEAKER_01: Zoom and we're going to work through this problem together.
10:03
SPEAKER_01: If that's how you work, sure.
10:04
SPEAKER_01: But if it's not, then just replicate it to be
10:07
SPEAKER_01: true to your organization.
10:09
SPEAKER_01: I think that's really good as well.
10:13
SPEAKER_01: And, I think asking true situational questions...
10:17
SPEAKER_01: ... so, questions that are true to your organization....
10:20
SPEAKER_01: Instead of just making up like, "Tell me a time that you dealt with a
10:23
SPEAKER_01: difficult conflict at work."
10:25
SPEAKER_01: Talk about the conflicts at work that come
10:27
up for your organization and then get them to walk through that
10:30
scenario and
10:31
SPEAKER_01: what they would do in that moment.
10:32
SPEAKER_01: I think that's going to be a better
10:34
indicator of how they will fit into things and how they will
10:38
navigate within
10:39
SPEAKER_01: your environment way better than just some generic bland questions.
10:44
Generic interview questions get generic responses and you don't
10:48
want that.
10:49
SPEAKER_01: This is important.
10:49
SPEAKER_01: You have to be really intentional about how you design
10:51
SPEAKER_01: those questions.
10:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
10:53
SPEAKER_00: I've always felt...
10:54
SPEAKER_00: I've had my share of interview questions that were canned
10:58
SPEAKER_00: and formulaic and from the best practices textbook that was written
11:02
SPEAKER_00: 30 years ago and they drive me bananas.
11:05
SPEAKER_00: And you touched on a good one there.
11:07
SPEAKER_00: Like, how do you deal with conflict in the workplace?
11:10
SPEAKER_00: A lot of the time that question is phrased almost like that.
11:14
You know...
11:14
"tell me about a time that you had to navigate conflict and how
11:19
SPEAKER_00: you went about it."
11:20
SPEAKER_00: That drives me nuts because then it's like I have to sit
11:22
SPEAKER_00: there and my brain—the cognitive processes of my brain—have to switch
11:27
SPEAKER_00: to recall.
11:27
SPEAKER_00: So, automatically, I'm thinking back through like, "Oh, when
11:31
SPEAKER_00: did I have a big problem with some person and what did I do about it?"
11:36
SPEAKER_00: That's not very cognitively efficient because it relies on memory.
11:39
SPEAKER_00: And a lot of people who are like me and have just really bad memories.
11:43
SPEAKER_00: It's a tough question.
11:44
SPEAKER_00: But if you had said the question like, "Okay, imagine
11:47
SPEAKER_00: a scenario where person A and person B are working on... this...
11:51
SPEAKER_00: These are the organizational dynamics: one person is the boss,
11:55
SPEAKER_00: the other person is not directly reporting to them...
11:57
SPEAKER_00: they conflict over a billing practice, or something like that,
12:01
SPEAKER_00: You're the group, the business unit manager.
12:03
SPEAKER_00: How would you resolve that?"
12:05
SPEAKER_00: That question gets me cognitively engaged in critical thinking and in
12:10
SPEAKER_00: situational awareness and all those things.
12:12
SPEAKER_00: Like, "Okay, I can picture what this is about, this conflict.
12:15
SPEAKER_00: Let me think through the steps out loud while we discuss it."
12:19
SPEAKER_00: That's a heck of a lot more of a productive question in an interview.
12:22
SPEAKER_01: You are seeing the work behind the work.
12:24
SPEAKER_01: You're seeing
12:25
SPEAKER_01: the process that they take, all of the little hoops and stuff
12:30
SPEAKER_01: that they're doing to get to the outcome versus them,
12:33
SPEAKER_01: let's be honest, it's one thing to recall an old memory of
12:37
SPEAKER_01: a conflict you had... but a lot of people just make
12:40
SPEAKER_01: that sh*t up... because how do you know the difference?
12:43
SPEAKER_01: How would you know otherwise, right?
12:44
SPEAKER_01: And you're the hero in this situation.
12:45
SPEAKER_01: You're
12:46
SPEAKER_01: always going to be the hero in this situation.
12:49
SPEAKER_01: And is that even a question that applies to the work
12:51
SPEAKER_01: that they're going to be doing?
12:54
And I will admit that when I've been asked that question in the
13:00
past and I
13:01
couldn't come up with an answer because I couldn't remember
13:04
quickly enough,
13:05
SPEAKER_00: I made it up.
13:05
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's absolutely how I would handle it, but I made it up.
13:09
SPEAKER_01: Of course.
13:10
SPEAKER_01: And it's so like how I handled that situation was relevant to
13:14
SPEAKER_01: that organization and those dynamics and that culture.
13:19
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean that that's how I would approach the conflict at this
13:22
SPEAKER_01: organization.
13:23
SPEAKER_01: I don't have enough information to be able to tell you how.
13:27
SPEAKER_01: And you know full well that that's going to be the question that they ask
13:30
SPEAKER_01: you.
13:30
SPEAKER_01: So you can prepare ahead of time if you're a prepper and just have some
13:36
SPEAKER_01: canned response ready to go that doesn't even apply to the organization
13:42
SPEAKER_01: that you're stepping into.
13:43
SPEAKER_01: It's frustrating.
13:44
SPEAKER_01: I find that my blood pressure gets going when we talk about this because
13:48
I think that we're just injuring people in such an archaic,
13:51
antiquated way
13:52
SPEAKER_01: that just needs to change and hasn't and won't.
13:58
SPEAKER_01: I don't know unless we do something about it.
14:01
SPEAKER_01: So yeah... that's why we have the show...
14:05
And also,
14:07
Emma,
14:08
you have the ability to interview in any way that you want
14:11
SPEAKER_01: to.
14:11
SPEAKER_01: You can redesign and maybe with your team co-create, co-design a
14:17
SPEAKER_01: process that works for you.
14:19
SPEAKER_01: You don't have to do all of the steps that we are all so used to doing.
14:24
You could reimagine what it is and what makes sense for your
14:28
organization and
14:29
SPEAKER_01: then just do it that way.
14:30
SPEAKER_01: That's so exciting to me.
14:33
SPEAKER_01: I'm excited for you that you get to completely redesign it.
14:39
SPEAKER_01: And maybe it's not you.
14:40
SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's someone on your team who has a really
14:42
SPEAKER_01: good critical thinking, emotional intelligence, is someone who's really
14:45
SPEAKER_01: innovative.
14:46
SPEAKER_01: Maybe give them that opportunity to be like,
14:49
SPEAKER_01: "If you could redesign this process and forget everything we know about
14:55
SPEAKER_01: hiring, what would it look like?"
14:57
SPEAKER_00: That would be a great learning and
14:59
SPEAKER_00: development opportunity for somebody too, right?
15:01
SPEAKER_00: Like, to give someone a project like that and say, "Hey, reimagine the
15:05
SPEAKER_00: hiring process."
15:06
SPEAKER_00: That'd be awesome.
15:07
SPEAKER_00: That'd be so awesome for somebody in
15:09
SPEAKER_00: the organization.
15:10
SPEAKER_00: And I think that, to your point, more and more
15:14
SPEAKER_00: companies are going to
15:15
have to start reimagining their hiring process like in the
15:18
backdrop of we've
15:20
SPEAKER_00: got this AI arms race going on, right?
15:22
SPEAKER_00: Where, increasingly ATS systems and
15:26
candidate pipelines are run by AI,
15:28
which will kind of converge on a single
15:31
way of doing things for every company,
15:34
regardless of whether or not it's the
15:35
SPEAKER_00: right way of doing things.
15:36
SPEAKER_00: Then on the other side, you've got the
15:38
SPEAKER_00: candidates who are using AI to write their resumes and their resumes and
15:42
SPEAKER_00: all their supporting materials and stuff are being based on the job
15:44
SPEAKER_00: description which is also written by AI...
15:47
So you've got AI talking to AI and kind of putting people in
15:50
the middle as
15:51
like this weird intermediator between two systems that are
15:54
supposed to have
15:55
SPEAKER_00: been trained to reflect how people think and act.
16:00
SPEAKER_00: And like it's all going to break down.
16:01
SPEAKER_00: I think we're seeing some signs of
16:03
SPEAKER_00: that already.
16:03
SPEAKER_00: So companies are going to have to reimagine how to do this and
16:06
SPEAKER_00: they're going to have to be creative about what works for them.
16:11
One thing I'd like to add,
16:12
I know we're taking so much time answering this
16:16
SPEAKER_01: question, but it is such a good question... awesome question!
16:19
SPEAKER_01: We both have so much to say about it.
16:20
SPEAKER_01: I worked at a big, national corporation
16:25
years and years ago and one of the things like there was a lot
16:27
that I didn't
16:28
like about working in corporate,
16:30
but I also had some really great learnings.
16:32
SPEAKER_01: One of the things they talked about was the concept that we are all
16:36
SPEAKER_01: recruiters, all of us at every level of the organization.
16:40
So,
16:40
for example,
16:41
if you go to Starbucks every day and get your drink and there's
16:44
SPEAKER_01: a barista serving you who just remembers everyone's names or just
16:49
SPEAKER_01: connects with people or just has a certain kind of vibe to them, or it's
16:55
SPEAKER_01: your bank teller or wherever it is... that is your pipeline.
17:01
If you're like seeing that person,
17:02
they've got something there,
17:04
why not recruit
17:06
SPEAKER_01: that person?
17:08
SPEAKER_01: If it's a culture that you're looking for, that is the most
17:11
SPEAKER_01: important.
17:12
SPEAKER_01: Skills and all sorts of things, depending on the role, they can
17:17
SPEAKER_01: learn them.
17:17
SPEAKER_01: And the right type of person can learn them very quickly.
17:20
And the right type of environment creates an amazing
17:24
opportunity for that.
17:25
SPEAKER_01: But we are all recruiters.
17:28
SPEAKER_01: I was doing some gun thing there.
17:30
SPEAKER_01: We are all recruiters.
17:30
SPEAKER_01: I'm getting annoyed with myself because I'm
17:32
SPEAKER_01: talking too much.
17:33
SPEAKER_01: Identify those people.
17:36
SPEAKER_01: They're out there in your community and in your world.
17:39
SPEAKER_01: You're interacting with them, day-to-day,
17:41
SPEAKER_01: and so are other members of
17:42
SPEAKER_01: your team.
17:42
SPEAKER_01: So, that's a newer way of moving forward with this.
17:49
SPEAKER_01: There are people that you're interacting with on the daily who
17:52
SPEAKER_01: would be the right person for your team.
17:55
SPEAKER_01: Get them, talk to them, ask them, "Hey, what's up?
17:59
SPEAKER_01: Come join this
18:00
SPEAKER_01: organization"... or start your process from there.
18:03
SPEAKER_01: So, I think that that might be an option as well.
18:06
SPEAKER_00: For some companies,
18:07
SPEAKER_00: for some teams that are in charge of recruiting...
18:10
SPEAKER_00: that will be a nice, friendly alternative to what we have now...
18:16
SPEAKER_00: where you post a job and get a thousand applications for it
18:19
SPEAKER_00: in about six minutes because that's
18:21
SPEAKER_00: tough to manage too.
18:23
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
18:24
SPEAKER_01: Have a card or have some kind of cool QR thing with you and your team
18:29
members at all times and anytime you see someone who you think
18:31
would be an
18:33
SPEAKER_01: awesome person to work with, just start that connection.
18:39
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
18:39
SPEAKER_00: Let's move on to the next question on the list here, that I
18:43
SPEAKER_00: though was kind of interesting from the submissions at the Live.
18:48
SPEAKER_00: This is from Alexei and he wrote in to ask how to identify companies that
18:53
and for context Alexei is a recent—not recent but fairly
18:57
new—from graduating.
18:59
SPEAKER_00: So, a couple of years in the workforce and
19:02
SPEAKER_00: He seems like a very kind of values, purpose-driven person.
19:05
SPEAKER_00: He asks, "How do I identify companies that genuinely invest in the
19:10
SPEAKER_00: development of new grads rather than just using them as cheap labor?
19:13
SPEAKER_00: Great question.
19:14
SPEAKER_00: I want to find a workplace that values mentorship and
19:16
SPEAKER_00: long-term growth, but I'm not sure how to spot the red flags during the
19:22
SPEAKER_00: hiring process and how to really determine whether or not a company is
19:26
SPEAKER_00: going to support me and support my growth over time."
19:29
SPEAKER_00: Great question.
19:30
SPEAKER_01: Really great question and so true.
19:34
SPEAKER_01: I've seen job postings—one that I actually want to bring on Roast the
19:39
SPEAKER_01: Post for us to dissect.
19:41
SPEAKER_01: And it's specific like... new grad, or I can't
19:46
SPEAKER_01: remember how they named it, but it was very much like... early career,
19:50
SPEAKER_01: I think is what they said.
19:50
SPEAKER_01: And what does that mean?
19:53
SPEAKER_01: Does that mean that you can exploit them and just pay them less?
19:57
SPEAKER_01: Or does it mean you want someone that you can like train and mentor into
20:00
SPEAKER_01: something?
20:00
SPEAKER_01: So, it's a very good question being asked.
20:05
I think that the whole reason why we do Roast the Post is
20:06
because the company
20:09
SPEAKER_01: is telling you everything you need to know in that job posting.
20:12
SPEAKER_01: If they do it and they name it, it's there.
20:17
SPEAKER_01: If it's not named, they're not
20:18
SPEAKER_01: doing it.
20:20
SPEAKER_01: So, companies, what I don't see often on job postings is mentoring
20:25
SPEAKER_01: programs or anything about like your career and development or you know
20:29
SPEAKER_01: what they're going to give back to you.
20:31
SPEAKER_01: So I think right then and there, an
20:33
SPEAKER_01: early red flag is that it's not named in the job posting.
20:39
When we go into the interview process itself,
20:42
there are a lot of questions
20:44
SPEAKER_01: that you can ask to surface that.
20:47
SPEAKER_01: Give interviewers time to ask your own
20:53
SPEAKER_01: questions and just be prepared to ask literally ask that question like,
20:57
SPEAKER_01: "How do you support new grads and what does mentoring look like at your
21:01
SPEAKER_01: organization?"
21:02
SPEAKER_01: You have the right to ask those questions.
21:04
SPEAKER_01: And if anybody's like, "Oh my god, you asked that question.
21:07
SPEAKER_01: We're not
21:08
SPEAKER_01: hiring you."
21:08
SPEAKER_01: Well, then you don't want to work there anyway.
21:11
And if they're very ambiguous and vague about it,
21:15
it means that they don't have
21:17
SPEAKER_01: that.
21:18
SPEAKER_01: Because if they do, they'll be able to tell you.
21:21
SPEAKER_01: They'll be able to say, "Actually, great question.
21:22
SPEAKER_01: This is what we do."
21:24
SPEAKER_01: So, it's quite straight- forward, I think.
21:27
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
21:27
SPEAKER_00: And typically that's the kind of stuff that you really want to ask of
21:32
SPEAKER_00: the hiring manager or the direct hiring team than I would the recruiter
21:37
SPEAKER_00: early on when you're doing kind of like a phone screen or whatever.
21:40
SPEAKER_00: Because recruiters, a lot of the time, are outsourced.
21:43
SPEAKER_00: They're not actually a part of the company.
21:45
So,
21:45
you can be talking to a recruiter who's been hired to hire you,
21:50
but they
21:51
SPEAKER_00: don't know Jack about how the company really functions.
21:55
SPEAKER_00: And they're not going to be able to answer questions with nuance and
21:58
SPEAKER_00: detail very well.
21:59
SPEAKER_00: So, kind of reserve those questions for the hiring
22:02
manager or the hiring team,
22:03
someone who's directly employed by the company.
22:05
SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, you could get into a situation where the recruiter gives a
22:10
SPEAKER_00: terrible answer, but there's really a good program in place.
22:14
SPEAKER_00: They just didn't know about it, right?
22:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you want to direct your questions kind of to the right person,
22:21
SPEAKER_00: Alexei.
22:22
SPEAKER_00: And to echo what Jen said, like if a company doesn't talk about it,
22:26
SPEAKER_00: they don't really do it.
22:27
SPEAKER_00: That's true.
22:27
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely true.
22:29
SPEAKER_00: So, if you just very point blank say, "How do you approach mentorship?"
22:33
SPEAKER_00: Because that's important to me.
22:34
SPEAKER_00: I want to grow professionally.
22:37
SPEAKER_00: How do you go about it?
22:37
SPEAKER_00: If they can't answer, they haven't thought about it.
22:39
SPEAKER_00: They don't do it.
22:40
SPEAKER_00: So, it might not be a match for you.
22:42
SPEAKER_01: I think another early signal is the pay band.
22:47
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, more and more we're seeing pay bands listed in job
22:51
postings and that's an indicator to you,
22:54
as well,
22:55
how invested they are in
22:57
SPEAKER_01: new grads.
22:57
SPEAKER_01: If it's like an obnoxiously low salary, that's a good indication of
23:04
SPEAKER_01: what they think about new grads and how they will be treated.
23:07
SPEAKER_01: Just because someone's a new grad doesn't mean that they have to be paid
23:11
SPEAKER_01: like in rocks.
23:13
SPEAKER_01: Give them a salary.
23:14
SPEAKER_01: Show them that they have the
23:16
SPEAKER_01: opportunity to build a career at that organization.
23:19
So I think that's also an early signal to you about how you
23:22
would be treated
23:24
SPEAKER_01: as a new grad.
23:26
SPEAKER_00: Let's go on to—this is a really good one.
23:31
We both might struggle with this one a little bit because
23:35
neither of us are
23:36
SPEAKER_00: recruiters, but it's an interesting question nonetheless.
23:39
SPEAKER_00: This is from Jordan and Jordan says, "I'm a new recruiter and I have a
23:45
nightmare client whose requirements make it hard to keep
23:47
candidates moving
23:48
SPEAKER_00: through the pipeline, to the point of hire.
23:52
SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of attrition.
23:53
SPEAKER_00: Like he's losing people to attrition because of
23:57
SPEAKER_00: this client."
23:58
SPEAKER_00: And he asked, "Do you have any advice for pushing back on
24:01
SPEAKER_00: their requests so I can finish the job?
24:03
SPEAKER_00: I lose so many great candidates to
24:06
SPEAKER_00: slow progress."
24:08
SPEAKER_00: And that really drives at the heart
24:11
SPEAKER_00: of a lot of the stuff that you and I get so
24:13
SPEAKER_00: pissed off about.
24:15
SPEAKER_01: Um, that sucks.
24:17
SPEAKER_01: I do not envy your situation at all.
24:22
SPEAKER_01: Like Paul said, neither of us are
24:24
actually recruiters,
24:26
which is hilarious that we have this podcast and everything.
24:31
But we do have a lot of experience and so I guess my advice
24:35
comes from a place
24:36
SPEAKER_01: of experience.
24:37
SPEAKER_01: When I'm trying to, when I'm struggling to get something across
24:41
SPEAKER_01: the finish line...data is the most important thing that you can bring to
24:49
SPEAKER_01: the table.
24:49
SPEAKER_01: You need to be able to speak the language that they'll
24:52
SPEAKER_01: understand.
24:52
SPEAKER_01: The way that you are explaining it right now to the
24:55
SPEAKER_01: stakeholders isn't translating.
24:57
SPEAKER_01: They don't care because you're not giving
25:00
SPEAKER_01: them information they care about.
25:01
SPEAKER_01: What do they care about?
25:03
SPEAKER_01: Figure out what it is that they need to hear.
25:05
SPEAKER_01: Is this costing them a lot of money?
25:09
SPEAKER_01: Then speak that language.
25:11
SPEAKER_01: Give it to them in numbers.
25:12
SPEAKER_01: Whatever it is that you can do to translate what
25:15
SPEAKER_01: is broken in a language that they will understand and will catch their
25:20
SPEAKER_01: attention is your path forward for this.
25:24
SPEAKER_01: That's kind of my advice there.
25:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:27
SPEAKER_00: Echoing that.
25:28
SPEAKER_00: It's about incentive structures, right?
25:31
SPEAKER_00: I hope that your billing model as a recruiter working for this company
25:38
SPEAKER_00: kind of captures, in monetary value, some of those losses.
25:44
SPEAKER_00: Like, are you being paid a retainer per week, per month?
25:49
SPEAKER_00: Are you being paid a head-hunting fee with a percentage commission?
25:52
Like,
25:52
if you're being paid a head-hunting fee based on a percentage
25:55
of first
25:56
SPEAKER_00: year's salary, then they absolutely don't care how many candidates get
26:00
SPEAKER_00: dropped out of the process because there's no financial penalty for that
26:05
SPEAKER_00: inefficiency.
26:05
SPEAKER_00: So like maybe that's something that you just got to rethink
26:08
SPEAKER_00: a little bit like how to create the incentive structure with your clients
26:11
SPEAKER_00: that makes all of this work.
26:13
SPEAKER_00: But to also echo what Jen said, figure out how
26:16
to frame this challenge in a way that they will care about,
26:19
in a way that will
26:20
SPEAKER_00: care about.
26:21
SPEAKER_00: In a way that will
26:23
SPEAKER_00: kind of make sense to them.
26:25
SPEAKER_00: And the money side of it makes a lot of sense
26:27
SPEAKER_00: to me.
26:27
SPEAKER_00: Like if you can demonstrate, "Hey, you know, the opportunity cost
26:30
of us losing all these candidates is X,
26:33
whatever the role is," and then just
26:35
say that to your client and that opens up a conversation where
26:37
you can say,
26:38
SPEAKER_00: "You know what, these things that you're asking for are actually barriers
26:43
SPEAKER_00: for you finishing this.
26:43
SPEAKER_00: Like, let's resolve those."
26:46
SPEAKER_01: Maybe how to go about it.
26:48
SPEAKER_01: I think another thing that I will say is that
26:52
when my dogs were puppies,
26:54
I had to figure out the best way to train them.
26:58
SPEAKER_01: One was food motivated... clients are puppies...
27:02
SPEAKER_01: What's that?
27:03
SPEAKER_00: Clients are puppies!
27:05
SPEAKER_01: One was food motivated, one was play motivated.
27:09
SPEAKER_01: So the reason I'm saying that is because maybe relaying numbers won't
27:13
SPEAKER_01: work for them.
27:14
SPEAKER_01: Maybe because you've lost great candidates, maybe you can go
27:18
and find where those candidates landed and bring that
27:22
information back to your
27:23
client and say,
27:24
"Hey,
27:24
because this process took this long,
27:26
this candidate,
27:29
SPEAKER_01: Josie, is now working at Google as the blah blah blah, right?"
27:33
Like say to them,
27:34
here's a snapshot of where the candidates we have lost have
27:38
SPEAKER_01: landed.
27:39
SPEAKER_01: They've gone to these amazing companies which means that this
27:43
SPEAKER_01: reinforces the idea that these were phenomenal candidates.
27:47
And we lost out on them and we lost out on them because of
27:50
taking too long.
27:52
SPEAKER_01: So again, motivating... is it food motivated?
27:55
SPEAKER_01: Is it play motivated?
27:56
SPEAKER_01: Is it numbers?
27:57
SPEAKER_01: Is it proving to them that really great companies snapped up
28:02
SPEAKER_01: these candidates?
28:04
SPEAKER_01: So figure out what it is that's going to hook them.
28:08
And treat them like puppies because they're little cute puppies
28:12
that don't
28:13
SPEAKER_01: know any better.
28:13
SPEAKER_01: So you have to train them.
28:16
I don't think that I'm allowed to say roll up a newspaper and
28:17
spank them on
28:18
SPEAKER_01: the butt anymore, but maybe you need to figure that out, too.
28:24
SPEAKER_00: Next question is from Sierra.
28:27
SPEAKER_00: She wrote in and says, "I work in finance and I'm trying to fill an empty
28:31
SPEAKER_00: role on my team, but I'm not getting good matches from our HR team.
28:36
SPEAKER_00: They work in a different office in a different city and I feel like I'm
28:40
SPEAKER_00: being ignored.
28:41
SPEAKER_00: How do I fix this?"
28:42
SPEAKER_00: Oo, I feel like I need a bit more
28:44
SPEAKER_01: information.
28:44
SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, the HR team who is elsewhere is just not giving you
28:49
SPEAKER_01: good candidates.
28:49
SPEAKER_01: Is that That's what it sounds like.
28:54
SPEAKER_00: It sounds like Sierra is just kind of and you know Sierra if we're
28:58
mischaracterizing what you're saying,
28:59
like,
28:59
just get in touch with us like
29:01
shoot us a DM on Substack or you know find us on Instagram or
29:04
something like
29:05
SPEAKER_00: that and just ping us.
29:06
SPEAKER_00: But it sounds like she's just getting ignored because
29:09
SPEAKER_00: their priorities are elsewhere.
29:11
SPEAKER_00: And that's easy to do when you're not in the
29:13
SPEAKER_00: same physical location as somebody who is competing for the time of an HR
29:19
SPEAKER_00: person.
29:19
SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, maybe Sierra's in Montreal, but these folks, the HR
29:25
SPEAKER_00: team are in an office in Toronto.
29:26
SPEAKER_00: And so, of course, all the people in Toronto
29:28
SPEAKER_00: can just walk by the HR team's little co-working area and be like,
29:31
SPEAKER_00: "Hey guys, what about blah blah blah?"
29:33
SPEAKER_01: This is so hard.
29:36
SPEAKER_01: And I think that...
29:41
SPEAKER_01: I have a lot of thoughts...
29:44
SPEAKER_01: And the root of it, to me, is proximity,
29:47
SPEAKER_01: sure, but also you kind of named it: they are not finance people so they
29:53
SPEAKER_01: don't know what to look for.
29:56
SPEAKER_01: So they might not be screening properly...
30:01
And so,
30:01
bear with me,
30:04
because this might be asking you to put more on your plate
30:07
SPEAKER_01: than you would like, but maybe you have someone on your team that you can
30:11
SPEAKER_01: delegate this to.
30:12
SPEAKER_01: I would ask for an earlier short list of what they're
30:18
SPEAKER_01: sending you.
30:20
SPEAKER_01: Instead of them screening and then them giving you a short list
30:25
SPEAKER_01: of who they think should be moving forward and you're like, "What are you
30:29
SPEAKER_01: doing?
30:29
SPEAKER_01: These are not the right candidates."
30:31
SPEAKER_01: Maybe try to get into the process a little bit sooner.
30:34
SPEAKER_01: So maybe see like, "Hey, can you can you scrape from your list like 50
30:40
SPEAKER_01: people?
30:41
SPEAKER_01: Don't pre-screen them.
30:42
SPEAKER_01: Just give me 50 resumes of applicants who
30:45
have applied for this role and either you or someone on your
30:49
team can then
30:51
SPEAKER_01: shortlist and then give it back to the HR people and be like,
30:55
SPEAKER_01: "Here's who we want to meet with.
30:57
SPEAKER_01: Set up these calls for us."
30:58
Again,
30:58
I know that's more work,
31:00
but in the long term,
31:01
because if you're not
31:02
SPEAKER_01: correcting this problem, it's going to keep happening.
31:06
SPEAKER_01: and you are training them on what it is to look for because they're
31:11
SPEAKER_01: missing that piece of information.
31:14
SPEAKER_01: Getting them to kind of move faster,
31:16
SPEAKER_01: that's a whole different systemic organizational issue.
31:19
SPEAKER_01: But if you're very clear and direct and be like, "Here's what I need from
31:23
SPEAKER_01: you.
31:23
SPEAKER_01: Get this to me by the end of this week."
31:28
SPEAKER_01: Then you're yeah, again you're training that system now.
31:31
You are kind of reshaping what it is and hopefully you won't
31:33
have to do that
31:35
SPEAKER_01: many times.
31:35
SPEAKER_01: But if they're not sending you quality candidates and you had any
31:40
SPEAKER_01: say in the job posting, that's not the problem.
31:43
SPEAKER_01: The problem is they don't know what they're looking for.
31:46
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, that's a great diagnostic approach too.
31:51
SPEAKER_00: If you say, "hey... send me 50 resumes from the general pool."
31:56
SPEAKER_00: you'll also be able to tell kind of where the problem lies, where the
32:00
SPEAKER_00: barrier lies, the friction or inefficiency.
32:03
SPEAKER_00: If the problem is that they're not getting great applicants, then that's
32:07
SPEAKER_00: one problem.
32:08
SPEAKER_00: Then you need to take a look at the comp structure.
32:10
SPEAKER_00: You need to take a look at the benefits.
32:11
SPEAKER_00: You need to take a look at the
32:14
SPEAKER_00: campaign structure for recruiting.
32:15
SPEAKER_00: Like where are you posting these job
32:17
SPEAKER_00: ads?
32:17
SPEAKER_00: What does all that look like?
32:19
SPEAKER_00: If the resumes themselves are not a
32:22
SPEAKER_00: fit, your problem's kind of in that area.
32:25
SPEAKER_00: But if the resumes that you get that pool, there's a bunch of really good
32:28
SPEAKER_00: ones.
32:28
SPEAKER_00: Then like Jen said, it's about training that HR team and kind of
32:32
SPEAKER_00: helping them along so you know that the problem area is kind of internal
32:36
SPEAKER_00: versus structural and external.
32:37
SPEAKER_00: So it's
32:38
SPEAKER_00: that's a great diagnostic mechanism is what I would add to Jen's answer.
32:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:43
SPEAKER_01: Like figure out where the actual problem is because right now we're
32:47
SPEAKER_01: making an assumption on where the problem is, but yeah, sometimes it's
32:50
SPEAKER_01: not always that obvious.
32:51
SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, a little bit of extra work for
32:55
you and your team in the beginning to get to the place where
32:58
you need to be.
32:59
SPEAKER_01: No, don't do their job for them.
33:00
SPEAKER_01: Do not get into that.
33:04
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, diagnose the right problem and then go from there.
33:09
SPEAKER_00: And if you need to, escalate like a $*&#, those people got bosses.
33:14
And if they're just not doing their job for some reason,
33:16
go to their boss.
33:18
SPEAKER_00: That's a bridge you don't want to burn too early, but it's there for you.
33:22
SPEAKER_01: And that's the thing, too.
33:22
SPEAKER_01: What I'm trying to prevent is being like,
33:28
SPEAKER_01: "Well, this isn't working."
33:28
SPEAKER_01: Like, be more creative about trying to figure out
33:31
SPEAKER_01: what the actual problem is and then address that problem instead of just
33:34
SPEAKER_01: kind of going on a wild goose chase.
33:36
SPEAKER_01: So, yep.
33:38
Next question,
33:39
and this is kind of a good news question,
33:40
which I think is a
33:43
nice change from the doom and gloom in the state of the labor
33:45
market that we
33:46
SPEAKER_00: kind of hear about right now.
33:48
SPEAKER_00: This is from Alisa.
33:49
SPEAKER_00: She says, "I've been quietly job hunting for two years
33:54
SPEAKER_00: with no luck and I've given up.
33:55
SPEAKER_00: Things turned recently and I have three good
33:58
SPEAKER_00: offers to choose from.
33:58
SPEAKER_00: It was unexpected and I'm overwhelmed.
34:03
SPEAKER_01: What do I decide what to do?"
34:04
SPEAKER_01: I'm really interested in what turned.
34:06
SPEAKER_01: Like you had given up and then something turned and you had three
34:09
SPEAKER_01: offers.
34:09
SPEAKER_01: I'm really interested in that aspect.
34:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it sounds like emotionally she'd just kind of given up.
34:17
Maybe she was still applying for stuff and all of a sudden
34:18
something clicked
34:20
and she's gone through interviews and she has three offers but
34:22
now she's got
34:23
SPEAKER_00: a different problem.
34:23
SPEAKER_00: Doesn't know what to do.
34:24
SPEAKER_00: Doesn't know which one to
34:26
SPEAKER_01: accept.
34:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I can't.
34:28
SPEAKER_01: This is one question
34:30
SPEAKER_01: that I can't answer for you.
34:31
SPEAKER_01: Like I cannot answer for you at all.
34:37
SPEAKER_01: Because that's it just depends on what it is that you need.
34:43
Luckily I was just at a conference and we talked about like
34:48
designing your
34:49
SPEAKER_01: life.
34:49
SPEAKER_01: There's that book, "Designing Your Next Chapter," "Designing Your
34:52
SPEAKER_01: Life."
34:52
SPEAKER_01: And there are a couple of frameworks and things that you can do
34:56
that will help you—again only you can answer these
34:57
questions—but that will
34:59
SPEAKER_01: help you make an informed decision.
35:01
And so if you look at and I have like my little notebook from
35:03
the conference,
35:05
SPEAKER_01: but you know if you take a moment to do what's called an energy audit and
35:12
list what,
35:13
in your work life,
35:15
what drains you...
35:16
and what energizes you,
35:18
and then
35:19
try to map those roles into what you will be essentially doing
35:23
more of that
35:24
SPEAKER_01: energizes you.
35:26
SPEAKER_01: That might be helpful.
35:29
There's also buckets of in your life,
35:32
assess on a scale of one to five how
35:36
SPEAKER_01: are you feeling about how much time you have in your life to do things?
35:39
SPEAKER_01: How are you feeling about like where you're at physically, your physical
35:42
SPEAKER_01: health?
35:44
SPEAKER_01: Socially, do you have time to have develop like meaningful
35:49
SPEAKER_01: relationships with your friends, with your community, with your family,
35:53
SPEAKER_01: whatever?
35:53
SPEAKER_01: How are things going for you mentally, mental health-wise, and then
35:58
financially,
35:58
how are things,
35:59
how's the picture looking financially on a scale
36:02
SPEAKER_01: of 1 to 5 for each of those things?
36:04
SPEAKER_01: And then again, go back and look at
36:06
those three job offers and see which one is going to suit your
36:11
needs more.
36:12
It's a really it's really about making the right decision based
36:17
on what your
36:18
SPEAKER_01: needs are and your family's needs or whatever else you have going on in
36:22
SPEAKER_01: your life.
36:23
SPEAKER_01: It's a good problem to have and it's so funny like there's a drought
36:28
and then when it rains it pours and now you're kind of
36:30
overwhelmed with this
36:32
idea,
36:32
but think about what would have felt perfect to you when you
36:35
were in
36:36
SPEAKER_01: that drought phase.
36:38
SPEAKER_01: What you really would have needed and then pick that
36:42
SPEAKER_01: one.
36:42
SPEAKER_01: Do your research on the companies as well.
36:48
SPEAKER_01: There's nothing wrong with asking people, reaching out on LinkedIn to
36:51
SPEAKER_01: employees to say like, "Hey, how do you like working at this company?"
36:55
SPEAKER_01: You don't have to give them all the information.
36:56
SPEAKER_01: You don't have to say,
36:57
SPEAKER_01: "I'm weighing three options."
36:58
SPEAKER_01: But just try to get as much—again, data is
37:01
SPEAKER_01: power, so try to get as much information as you can.
37:04
SPEAKER_01: I don't know, Paul, what are your thoughts on that?
37:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
37:07
SPEAKER_00: To kind of add to what Jen said there, like it's a tough question to
37:12
SPEAKER_00: answer because so much of it is personal to you.
37:18
SPEAKER_00: If it were me and I was in this position, this is kind of what I would
37:23
SPEAKER_00: do.
37:23
You know,
37:23
I would look at the three offers and say,
37:26
"Okay,
37:26
kind of condition
37:28
set number one:
37:30
Which of these offers or how many of these offers provides the
37:37
SPEAKER_00: financial stability and certainty that you need?"
37:41
SPEAKER_00: That would be kind of like number one for me.
37:44
SPEAKER_00: Number two for me, the second kind of condition set...
37:48
SPEAKER_00: I would use that to filter out something that maybe doesn't
37:51
SPEAKER_00: meet my financial needs, and say... "alright, one of these sucks,
37:53
SPEAKER_00: so I've got two left.
37:53
SPEAKER_00: Great."
37:54
SPEAKER_00: The second condition set
37:56
SPEAKER_00: that I'd be looking at is...
37:58
SPEAKER_00: which of these offers will support work-life balance the best?
38:03
SPEAKER_00: Like, where can I expect to have respectful, in essence, just respect for
38:12
SPEAKER_00: my personal life, for my own time?
38:13
SPEAKER_00: Because at the stage of my life that
38:15
I'm in right now I do not want another employer who feels like
38:20
they have kind
38:21
SPEAKER_00: of all access to me 24 hours a day and that my established workday that's
38:25
SPEAKER_00: supposed to be, you know, 40 hours a week is actually 70 or 80.
38:28
SPEAKER_00: I've done that enough.
38:29
SPEAKER_00: Thanks, no more.
38:31
SPEAKER_00: So I'd be looking at that, you know, which job kind of supports that the
38:35
SPEAKER_00: best.
38:36
SPEAKER_00: And then the last thing that I would be looking at is which of these
38:42
SPEAKER_00: offers me the most opportunity for fulfillment?
38:47
SPEAKER_00: And Jen talked about this like what energizes you, what drains you.
38:51
SPEAKER_00: That's a part of it.
38:51
SPEAKER_00: But for me also, I'd be looking at what has the most
38:54
SPEAKER_00: potential for me to be doing interesting stuff.
38:57
SPEAKER_00: By nature, I'm a very intellectually curious person.
38:59
SPEAKER_00: So, I would look at those three job offers and say,
39:02
SPEAKER_00: "Okay, these three roles that I'd be doing, which one or which ones am I
39:07
SPEAKER_00: potentially going to be doing really cool $*&# in?"
39:09
That would be something that I kind of consider to be like
39:11
right up there.
39:13
SPEAKER_00: That's about how I would go about it.
39:14
SPEAKER_00: Like your criteria might be a little bit
39:17
different,
39:17
but I think the point that we're both driving at is that you
39:21
should
39:22
SPEAKER_00: spend a little bit of time thinking through what your framework is and
39:27
then run these three offers through that framework,
39:29
and say this is what I need,
39:32
this is what I don't need,
39:34
where do each of these offers kind of like rate
39:36
SPEAKER_00: in that system or that framework or that scale or whatever.
39:40
I agree and I would say that once you make that decision,
39:42
I strongly advise
39:45
SPEAKER_01: you not to... if the job that you pick doesn't end up being what you
39:51
hoped it would be,
39:51
not to look back and be like,
39:53
"I should have taken this
39:54
SPEAKER_01: job.
39:54
SPEAKER_01: I should have taken, you know, I made a mistake or whatever."
39:58
SPEAKER_01: And just use this as more data for next time, a learning opportunity.
40:04
Because it's not going to be whichever one you pick is not
40:06
going to be perfect
40:07
SPEAKER_01: and it's not going to tick all of your boxes.
40:09
SPEAKER_01: Inevitably, when you have different decisions, options—
40:17
SPEAKER_01: you will always look back and think, "Well, was this the right choice?"
40:21
SPEAKER_01: So forward, move forward.
40:23
SPEAKER_01: Because you are going to make... you're not going to
40:27
SPEAKER_01: steer yourself in the wrong direction, ever, ever, ever.
40:30
It will always serve a greater purpose that's very hard to see
40:34
in that moment.
40:36
SPEAKER_01: And you do yourself a major disservice by looking back in it with regret.
40:41
SPEAKER_01: So, just keep moving forward.
40:43
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
40:45
SPEAKER_00: Nothing's going to be perfect.
40:46
SPEAKER_00: There are trade-offs.
40:47
SPEAKER_01: What are your trade-offs that you're willing to accept?
40:50
SPEAKER_00: And I think this will be our last question.
40:53
SPEAKER_00: We have talked, alot, about
40:56
SPEAKER_00: these questions too because they're just so great.
40:57
SPEAKER_00: So Jen, I I think that we're
40:59
going to have to do like a circle-circle back Q&A and record
41:02
another episode to
41:04
SPEAKER_00: to carry on because man, these are some really good questions.
41:09
SPEAKER_00: The last one
41:10
that we'll cover today though is a big question and it's
41:14
something that we talk
41:15
about a lot,
41:16
indirectly,
41:17
on the show,
41:18
but we don't actually ever really drill in
41:22
SPEAKER_00: on this question directly.
41:23
SPEAKER_00: So, let's do that.
41:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
41:26
SPEAKER_00: Taryn wrote in and said, very simply, "If you were writing a job ad,
41:33
SPEAKER_00: how would you do it?"
41:35
SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, this is a full episode.
41:39
SPEAKER_00: I can't answer that right now.
41:40
SPEAKER_00: Maybe let's maybe let's keep it brief
41:42
SPEAKER_01: and we can do a full dehydrated.
41:44
SPEAKER_01: I don't have the energy to
41:45
SPEAKER_01: answer this question right now.
41:47
SPEAKER_01: I've been traveling.
41:47
SPEAKER_01: That's a really great
41:51
SPEAKER_01: question.
41:53
SPEAKER_01: And I think that...
41:57
SPEAKER_01: I think, I don't even know...
41:59
SPEAKER_01: I don't
42:00
SPEAKER_01: even know where to start.
42:00
SPEAKER_01: I think Paul and I like we've been talking about
42:03
SPEAKER_01: writing even like a book on this... we have been...
42:07
SPEAKER_01: So, I don't know that I can answer this question
42:11
SPEAKER_01: in the amount of time that we have in a thoughtful way.
42:15
SPEAKER_01: But I think that
42:17
SPEAKER_01: it would be a a full redesign.
42:19
SPEAKER_01: Not just like...
42:21
SPEAKER_01: I think the problem is
42:22
SPEAKER_01: deeper than there's something wrong with job ads.
42:25
SPEAKER_01: I think the problem is that
42:26
SPEAKER_01: there's something wrong with how we are hiring.
42:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
42:32
SPEAKER_01: Right.
42:32
SPEAKER_01: There's a systemic, major systemic problem.
42:33
SPEAKER_01: And so to answer that question,
42:35
SPEAKER_01: we would have to go so, so, so deep, like, up and down.
42:40
SPEAKER_01: I can't do
42:44
SPEAKER_01: that in this... in this format right now.
42:48
SPEAKER_00: I think where we are with this question is: we are going to write a book
42:52
for you,
42:53
and,
42:54
if you're the only person that buys it,
42:56
the price will be about...
42:58
SPEAKER_00: what do you think?
42:58
SPEAKER_00: $25,000?
43:00
SPEAKER_00: But if other people buy it, maybe it'll
43:02
SPEAKER_00: be $12.95.
43:02
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
43:03
SPEAKER_00: We'll maybe, we will like go ahead and write that
43:06
book or maybe this will be a part of the book that we
43:07
eventually do write.
43:10
SPEAKER_00: yeah, it's a big question.
43:11
SPEAKER_00: So, for me, I would say...
43:14
SPEAKER_00: I would give you this
43:15
SPEAKER_00: advice, Taran.
43:16
SPEAKER_00: When you're writing a job ad, number one, make sure that
43:20
SPEAKER_00: everything that is in your job ad connects to your ideal candidate.
43:25
SPEAKER_00: So
43:26
that means you need to think ahead about what your ideal
43:28
candidate looks like.
43:32
And that's not necessarily has an MBA,
43:32
has seven plus years of experience doing
43:35
SPEAKER_00: blah blah blah, whatever.
43:36
SPEAKER_00: Like sure, that's kind of a part of it.
43:37
SPEAKER_00: But if you
43:38
SPEAKER_00: think about it, education and experience and job history are a proxy for
43:44
SPEAKER_00: competence.
43:45
SPEAKER_00: So when you rest on those things, kind of copping out a little
43:48
SPEAKER_00: bit.
43:49
SPEAKER_00: Everyone does it, but it's kind of lame, especially in this labour market
43:55
SPEAKER_00: and especially with people with talent who are so dynamic and so
43:59
SPEAKER_00: crossfunctional and have so many different experiences.
44:02
SPEAKER_00: We're doing
44:03
SPEAKER_00: everybody a disservice by using those proxies in the recruiting process.
44:07
SPEAKER_00: So,
44:08
SPEAKER_00: that's number one, like start with your ideal candidate profile.
44:10
SPEAKER_00: Think about
44:12
SPEAKER_00: them when you're writing the job ad.
44:13
SPEAKER_00: Number two, think about your employer
44:15
SPEAKER_00: branding.
44:15
SPEAKER_00: What do you bring to the table that is more than... more than like
44:21
salary and benefits and you know role and responsibilities and
44:23
all that stuff?
44:25
What can the candidate what can your ideal candidate get out of
44:27
this from a
44:29
SPEAKER_00: personal fulfillment standpoint?
44:30
SPEAKER_00: Even if you're in an organization that... not
44:33
SPEAKER_00: really big on that still think through that what's in it for them.
44:39
SPEAKER_00: communicate your benefits in a way that makes sense.
44:42
SPEAKER_00: You know be honest, be
44:43
SPEAKER_00: transparent, be as detailed as you can.
44:45
SPEAKER_00: If you don't feel like you have great
44:47
benefits,
44:48
go back to the drawing board,
44:49
start conversations about developing
44:52
SPEAKER_00: great benefits.
44:53
SPEAKER_00: And that doesn't mean that you have to kind of blow like your
44:56
budget for the entire year putting in place really fancy
45:00
expensive benefits
45:01
SPEAKER_00: that have all the bells and whistles and whatnot.
45:03
SPEAKER_00: Your benefits can be
45:05
targeted to your ideal candidate profile and they can be very
45:08
simple,
45:08
you know,
45:09
SPEAKER_00: like one that I came across recently that I quite liked was there was an
45:15
SPEAKER_00: organization that was in... they're in kind of like grooming and that
45:23
SPEAKER_00: type of stuff like take your dog in and give them a bath or whatever.
45:25
SPEAKER_00: One
45:26
SPEAKER_00: benefit that they grooming
45:29
SPEAKER_00: What's that?
45:29
SPEAKER_01: I was like what kind of grooming are we
45:31
SPEAKER_01: talking about here?
45:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, shampoo your dog.
45:34
SPEAKER_00: That kind of
45:35
SPEAKER_00: grooming.
45:37
SPEAKER_00: One of the benefits that they offered was if you had pets,
45:41
you could make use of all of the stuff for free to groom your
45:44
own pets,
45:44
which
45:46
SPEAKER_00: doesn't sound like a huge benefit or anything, but they're saying that on
45:50
their dime,
45:51
like you can book your pet,
45:52
you can groom your pet using their
45:55
SPEAKER_00: equipment, their supplies, dog shampoo or whatever.
45:59
SPEAKER_00: And that's what it is.
46:01
SPEAKER_00: It's not huge, but it's nice.
46:02
SPEAKER_00: It's kind of targeted to the kind of person that
46:06
SPEAKER_00: they want there, right?
46:07
SPEAKER_00: There was also like a discount on pet insurance
46:10
SPEAKER_00: that they offered.
46:10
SPEAKER_00: Like they said, we will pay 50% of the premium up to X for
46:16
SPEAKER_00: your pet.
46:16
SPEAKER_00: That's another one that relatively inexpensive, but it's it's on
46:20
brand like it's valuable and it's nice for the people that they
46:22
want there.
46:22
SPEAKER_00: For
46:23
for people who are not aware,
46:25
this is called an employee value proposition,
46:31
SPEAKER_01: an EVP.
46:32
SPEAKER_01: So you need to identify what is your employee value proposition
46:39
SPEAKER_01: and that needs to be made explicit in the job posting.
46:42
SPEAKER_01: The employee has to
46:43
SPEAKER_01: understand fully what's in it for them.
46:45
SPEAKER_01: Some companies even create
46:48
SPEAKER_01: Microsoft at one point had a really cool booklet with a ring from a
46:52
binder and whenever they went to events or when we talk about
46:55
the concept of
46:57
everyone being a recruiter having that with them to hand out to
46:59
people like
47:00
SPEAKER_01: here's why you should work for us.
47:01
SPEAKER_01: That's like first and foremost, right?
47:04
SPEAKER_01: It goes beyond employer branding.
47:06
SPEAKER_01: I agree with you on that.
47:08
SPEAKER_01: I
47:09
SPEAKER_01: think designing it from who your ideal candidate profile is.
47:12
SPEAKER_01: Have the reporting
47:13
SPEAKER_01: structure in there.
47:14
SPEAKER_01: Have a bit of that EVP.
47:18
SPEAKER_01: Explain what the person can
47:21
SPEAKER_01: expect.
47:21
SPEAKER_01: I do like when companies have your first 30 days will look like blah
47:25
blah blah blah blah or like here's how we will know we hired
47:29
the right person
47:30
SPEAKER_01: for the role.
47:30
SPEAKER_01: Like give that information.
47:32
SPEAKER_01: Don't be shy with having a
47:35
SPEAKER_01: like you don't need to have a short job posting.
47:37
SPEAKER_01: It can be quite
47:42
SPEAKER_01: long and that's how you will find like-minded people.
47:44
SPEAKER_01: That's how you will
47:45
SPEAKER_01: find the right person because you will have written the job
47:49
profile,
47:49
the job posting for them,
47:51
and they will find each other,
47:52
and and if
47:54
you're trying to cut kind of cut corners or make it too generic
47:57
then you're going
47:58
SPEAKER_01: to get a whole bunch of generic applicants.
48:00
SPEAKER_01: So you really have to
48:02
SPEAKER_01: speak to your ideal candidate but you need to know who that is first.
48:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
48:06
SPEAKER_00: And the first 30-day thing is... is an example of describing the
48:13
SPEAKER_00: context behind the organization's dynamics.
48:17
SPEAKER_00: So as much as possible through the job ad, you want to give candidates
48:23
SPEAKER_00: context for what's going on there and like where where their place in the
48:27
SPEAKER_00: organization is and the purpose behind what their role is.
48:31
SPEAKER_00: So like Jen
48:32
mentioned,
48:32
and we talk about this on the show a lot...
48:34
Jen mentioned an org
48:35
SPEAKER_00: chart.
48:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
48:36
SPEAKER_00: Like talk about the team, talk about the reporting structure.
48:38
SPEAKER_00: Talk
48:39
SPEAKER_00: about at the very least who this person is reporting to.
48:43
SPEAKER_00: That is very rarely
48:44
SPEAKER_00: done.
48:45
SPEAKER_00: And it's it's easy to do and it's also great because it gives the person
48:51
SPEAKER_00: context for what they'll be doing and the relative importance of it.
48:54
SPEAKER_00: So like,
48:55
SPEAKER_00: you know, describe the context as much as you can in the job ad.
48:58
SPEAKER_00: And, you know,
48:59
SPEAKER_00: like Jen said, your job ad doesn't have to be short... but it also
49:04
SPEAKER_00: shouldn't be you know a novel necessarily on the job ad itself and
49:07
SPEAKER_00: this is where you see companies kind of shaving off parts of that that
49:13
SPEAKER_00: context to like little career sites on their website.
49:16
SPEAKER_00: So you can have like an
49:18
SPEAKER_00: employer micro site that talks about confidentially
49:22
SPEAKER_00: PII handling of data if that's appropriate... talks about benefits,
49:27
talks about culture,
49:27
talks about the team,
49:29
like you can do a whole bunch of stuff
49:32
by teasing in the job ad these topics and then just having
49:34
links out to your
49:36
SPEAKER_00: website so people who care about that stuff they'll go there and and look
49:40
SPEAKER_00: further.
49:40
SPEAKER_00: Another thing both of us really advocate for is always having a salary
49:44
SPEAKER_00: range.
49:45
SPEAKER_00: Requirement.
49:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, always have a salary range, even
49:49
SPEAKER_00: if it's not a requirement in the jurisdiction where you are.
49:53
SPEAKER_00: increasingly it is becoming a requirement and be transparent about
49:56
SPEAKER_00: that salary range.
49:57
SPEAKER_00: We've roasted some job ads recently that listed a
50:02
SPEAKER_00: earnings band of on-target earnings without any other kind of detail.
50:07
SPEAKER_00: And
50:08
SPEAKER_00: what that means is that you're grouping together the base pay and the
50:13
performance pay and the commission pay and under any other
50:16
variable structure
50:18
SPEAKER_00: pay in one number.
50:19
SPEAKER_00: That number isn't representative of what you'll actually
50:22
SPEAKER_00: earn though, which is dishonest.
50:23
SPEAKER_00: So if your job ad does have an OTE component
50:26
SPEAKER_00: to it, list the base pay and the variable earnings part separately.
50:30
SPEAKER_00: You
50:31
SPEAKER_00: know, be transparent.
50:32
SPEAKER_00: If you don't list a salary band, you're just wasting
50:35
SPEAKER_00: everybody's time.
50:35
SPEAKER_00: you know, you're going to be on the hiring side, engaging
50:39
SPEAKER_00: with and dealing with people who earn the salary and it's on the low end.
50:44
SPEAKER_00: They're not going to go through with the process.
50:45
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and are you really going to
50:48
SPEAKER_00: invest the time trying to convince somebody, who, their number is 120K to
50:53
SPEAKER_00: take 60K?
50:53
SPEAKER_01: Of course not.
50:55
SPEAKER_00: That's not going to work.
50:56
SPEAKER_00: So, you're just wasting
50:59
SPEAKER_00: your own time by not putting the salary band right there in the job ad.
51:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
51:01
SPEAKER_00: Other disclosures, like the use of AI, use of PII,
51:07
SPEAKER_00: personal information, have those up front and center, too.
51:10
SPEAKER_00: increasingly people care about that stuff, as they should.
51:13
SPEAKER_00: So, when you're
51:14
transparent about that,
51:14
it builds trust with the person that is ultimately
51:17
SPEAKER_00: looking at throwing their hat in the ring for this job.
51:20
SPEAKER_00: The more that you
51:21
can build trust through these job ads,
51:23
the easier the process unfolds and the
51:26
more engagement and excitement you'll get from candidates as
51:28
the process is
51:30
SPEAKER_00: unfolding.
51:30
SPEAKER_00: I think that's all I have to say on the matter, but yeah, we should
51:34
SPEAKER_00: we should write that book, Jen.
51:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think I think you you named it
51:37
SPEAKER_01: all.
51:37
SPEAKER_01: Like if we have to go with the way that we're hiring currently in the
51:41
SPEAKER_01: world, then yeah, I think that those are those are the main points.
51:44
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure
51:45
SPEAKER_01: we're forgetting a couple of things.
51:47
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I think you named
51:50
SPEAKER_01: most of it, if not all.
51:50
SPEAKER_00: We are probably we are probably
51:52
SPEAKER_00: forgetting a couple of things.
51:53
SPEAKER_00: We're into our second hour of taping, so we're
51:56
SPEAKER_00: both a little bit like in need of hydration and a bathroom break.
51:59
SPEAKER_00: So, we
52:00
SPEAKER_00: will wrap up there.
52:01
SPEAKER_00: That has been some of the questions that were
52:05
submitted for our live that we did last Wednesday,
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April 29th,
52:09
and we'll do
52:10
SPEAKER_00: another live in the future.
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SPEAKER_00: So, keep an eye out for that.
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SPEAKER_00: And keep an eye out
52:16
SPEAKER_00: for part three of our Q&A from the first Substack live.
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SPEAKER_00: See y'all later.