Latest / Beyond The Horizon / Mega Edition: Dr. Baden, Joni Johnson And John Kelly Weigh In On The Murders (9/11/26)

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Mega Edition: Dr. Baden, Joni Johnson And John Kelly Weigh In On The Murders (9/11/26) · Beyond The Horizon

0:00
Speaker 1: What's up, everyone, and welcome back to the program.
0:03
Speaker 2: We have heard from many experts since Brian Kohlberger's arrest
0:08
Speaker 2: and since these murders occurred. In this episode, we're going
0:12
Speaker 2: to hear from another expert. Her name is Joni Johnston,
0:16
Speaker 2: and she's a veteran forensic psychologist. And she certainly had
0:20
Speaker 2: a few interesting things to add about what she thinks
0:24
Speaker 2: about Brian Kohlberger and his motivations. So let's get into
0:28
Speaker 2: this article from The Sun. And let's see what's what. Headline,
0:33
Speaker 2: no genius. Idaho killer Brian Koberger is a fantasist with
0:37
Speaker 2: no common sense and returned to the scene to live
0:40
Speaker 2: out his dream. An expert claims this article was authored
0:44
Speaker 2: by Luke Kenton. Koberger, 28, arrested in late December of 2022.
0:52
Speaker 2: was charged with first-degree murder and burglary in connection with
0:56
Speaker 2: the deaths of four students in Moscow, Idaho, on November 13th.
1:01
Speaker 2: The victims, Kaylee Gonsalves, Madison Mogan, Zanna Kernodle, and her boyfriend,
1:05
Speaker 2: Ethan Chapin, were all stabbed to death in the early
1:09
Speaker 2: hours of the morning. The search for their killer lasted
1:12
Speaker 2: several weeks before Koberger was apprehended in Pennsylvania on December 30th.
1:18
Speaker 2: He remains the only suspect in the case. Unless you
1:21
Speaker 2: ask some people on Reddit or some of these other
1:23
Speaker 2: forums where people are absolutely batshit insane. They have all
1:27
Speaker 2: kinds of theories. Three people were involved. Five people were involved. Oh,
1:32
Speaker 2: it's still a cartel hit.
1:33
Speaker 1: Breaking news.
1:35
Speaker 2: The cartel doesn't pull off hits like this. You want
1:38
Speaker 2: to see something that has the hallmarks of a cartel hit?
1:41
Speaker 2: Go up to Goshen, California, up in Tulare County and
1:44
Speaker 2: see the family of six that was assassinated in their home.
1:48
Speaker 2: That's how the cartel rolls.
1:50
Speaker 1: They come in there.
1:51
Speaker 2: A few sicarios, and they use guns, not knives, and
1:55
Speaker 2: they don't leave anyone alive. Do you really think if
1:57
Speaker 2: that was a cartel hit, the other two roommates would
2:00
Speaker 2: have been left alive?
2:01
Speaker 1: Zero chance. That's not how the cartel rolls.
2:04
Speaker 2: They're coming in and they're killing every last person in
2:07
Speaker 2: that house if they're looking to send a message. Police
2:11
Speaker 2: say DNA evidence found on a knife sheath left behind
2:14
Speaker 2: at the crime scene was a match for Kohlberger. Cell
2:17
Speaker 2: phone records also show the criminology student visited the crime
2:21
Speaker 2: scene 12 times since June of 2022, with the most
2:24
Speaker 2: recent occurring the morning after the murders, according to an
2:28
Speaker 2: arrest affidavit. A motive for the crime remains unclear. Police
2:33
Speaker 2: have also not yet determined who, if any of the
2:37
Speaker 2: four victims, was the intended target of the killing spree.
2:41
Speaker 1: However... Sources with knowledge of.
2:43
Speaker 2: The matter told people that Koberger had messaged one of
2:47
Speaker 2: the female victims multiple times on Instagram, but never received
2:51
Speaker 2: a reply. According to the source, Koberger followed Madison, Kaylee,
2:56
Speaker 2: and Zanna on Instagram. The identity of the recipient has
3:00
Speaker 2: not yet been revealed, so we still don't know. Anything really.
3:05
Speaker 2: About his so called interaction. With these girls on Instagram.
3:09
Speaker 2: Now what I've told you from the beginning. Is the
3:11
Speaker 2: Instagram account in question. I saw it all before it
3:15
Speaker 2: was wiped. With my own eyes. So I saw that
3:18
Speaker 2: account itself. Was for sure following Kaylee.
3:21
Speaker 1: And Madison.
3:22
Speaker 2: But it comes out now that he was following Zanna
3:25
Speaker 2: as well. I didn't see that with my own eyes.
3:28
Speaker 2: But I did see this account. That's in question. Following
3:31
Speaker 2: Kaylee and Madison. So that's why I've been so adamant
3:35
Speaker 2: that at the very least, there were those slight ties
3:39
Speaker 2: between them. And then you add in the mad Greek
3:42
Speaker 2: rumors that we've heard. And if you believe those rumors,
3:45
Speaker 2: and I do, then it really starts to put things
3:47
Speaker 2: in perspective about how Brian Koberger might have, remember, might
3:51
Speaker 2: have originally met these girls or seen them, and then
3:55
Speaker 2: how it all evolved from there. When news of the
3:59
Speaker 2: murders first broke, It appeared as though the culprit had
4:03
Speaker 2: pulled off the perfect crime, with police seemingly struggling to
4:06
Speaker 2: find leads, leaving the victims' families furious. However, since Koberger's
4:11
Speaker 2: arrest last month, the evidence disclosed by investigators revealed the Ph.D.
4:17
Speaker 2: criminology student allegedly made a host of rookie errors that
4:21
Speaker 2: led the police right to his door. Veteran forensic psychologist Dr.
4:26
Speaker 2: Joni Johnston told the U.S. Sun that that his purported
4:29
Speaker 2: mistakes show Kohlberger to be an obsessive fantasist rather than
4:33
Speaker 2: a criminal mastermind he may have believed himself to be.
4:37
Speaker 2: And when you're a narcissist and you have such a
4:40
Speaker 2: high opinion of yourself, it's easy to get caught up
4:43
Speaker 2: in your own self-worship, right? And forget about the big
4:47
Speaker 2: picture and forget that other people out there are, breaking.
4:51
Speaker 1: News, smarter than you are.
4:53
Speaker 2: There's clear evidence that this was pre-planned for months or
4:56
Speaker 2: weeks ahead of time, said Johnston, but this crime was
5:00
Speaker 2: certainly not meticulously planned. He drove his own car to
5:03
Speaker 2: the murder scene. He brought his own phone with him.
5:06
Speaker 2: He left his nightsheet there. So that doesn't sound meticulous
5:09
Speaker 2: to me. Me either. In fact, if all of this
5:12
Speaker 2: turns out to be true and Brian Kohlberger did make
5:15
Speaker 2: all of these mistakes, he'll go down as the Moscow
5:19
Speaker 2: moron from here on out. Instead, it seems to me
5:23
Speaker 2: like someone who is very obsessed and fantasizing about the
5:26
Speaker 2: act of killing and thinking about it, thinking about what
5:29
Speaker 2: weapon he's going to use and think about what time
5:32
Speaker 2: he's going to go in and thinking about how he's
5:35
Speaker 2: going to get in and watching the house, perhaps. But
5:39
Speaker 2: it appears he then had no common sense in terms
5:41
Speaker 2: of thinking about, OK, how am I going to not
5:44
Speaker 2: get caught?
5:45
Speaker 1: The basics. And it's true.
5:48
Speaker 2: You take a look at all of this evidence here
5:50
Speaker 2: and it looks like an amateur did this. That's why
5:53
Speaker 2: it's so confounding to some people out there who are like, well,
5:56
Speaker 2: he's a PhD student. He should have been a lot
5:59
Speaker 2: smarter than this, but we really can't account for hubris.
6:04
Speaker 1: We really can't account for ego.
6:07
Speaker 2: And when somebody thinks that they're a lot smarter than
6:09
Speaker 2: everybody else, They're going to act in that manner, right?
6:13
Speaker 1: I'm smarter than you. You'll never catch me. And this
6:16
Speaker 1: is why.
6:18
Speaker 2: I've heard a lot of people say, well, why wasn't
6:20
Speaker 2: he focusing on forensics as a criminology student? But he
6:24
Speaker 2: was basically studying the criminal mind, not forensic science, she added.
6:28
Speaker 2: I don't think he was studying how to make sure
6:30
Speaker 2: a blood splatter goes in the right way or anything
6:33
Speaker 2: like that. I think he was focusing on the psychology
6:36
Speaker 2: of it. I think it was very obsessively pre-planned and
6:39
Speaker 2: I think he was obsessed with the fantasy of it all.
6:42
Speaker 1: This is my theory. And again, just her theory, right?
6:46
Speaker 2: You can agree with it or not, but the idea
6:49
Speaker 2: is to have as much information as possible and to
6:52
Speaker 2: have a profile built by as many of these experts
6:55
Speaker 2: as possible so we can get an idea of who
6:58
Speaker 2: it is we're dealing with here. Because most of us
7:01
Speaker 2: who are following along with the case, well, we're not
7:03
Speaker 2: forensic scientists or you know criminal psychologists so we look
7:08
Speaker 2: at someone like this and we're like oh this guy's
7:10
Speaker 2: fucking crazy but the reality is there's a whole lot
7:13
Speaker 2: that goes into it there's a whole lot.
7:16
Speaker 1: That is underlying right here and a whole lot that.
7:19
Speaker 2: Needs to be peeled back and it's not just oh
7:22
Speaker 2: he's crazy there was motivation here there was premeditation here
7:27
Speaker 2: and obviously there was some sort of obsessive component what
7:31
Speaker 2: that component is or who it was we just don't
7:34
Speaker 2: know yet.
7:37
Speaker 1: Rookie errors.
7:38
Speaker 2: Some of the apparent mistakes wouldn't have even been made
7:41
Speaker 2: by the average true crime sleuth if they decided to
7:44
Speaker 2: commit a crime. When asked whether she believed the mistakes
7:47
Speaker 2: were a product of a lack of common sense or
7:50
Speaker 2: whether Koberger may have been consumed by his aforementioned fantasy
7:54
Speaker 2: that he overlooked the basic planning, Johnson.
7:57
Speaker 1: Theorized it was the latter.
7:59
Speaker 2: Or there's that other camp out there, remember, who says
8:02
Speaker 2: that Koberger wanted to get caught so he could fight
8:04
Speaker 2: this in court. Remember, there is a legion of people
8:08
Speaker 2: out there who ascribe to that as well. For someone
8:13
Speaker 2: who was planning a murder, he left out a lot
8:15
Speaker 2: of essential details if getting caught was not on the agenda,
8:18
Speaker 2: which I'm sure it was, she said. My sense is
8:22
Speaker 2: that he focused on what was the fantasy. What he
8:26
Speaker 2: focused on meticulously were the things that fulfilled that fantasy,
8:30
Speaker 2: such as maybe the clothes he was going to wear
8:32
Speaker 2: or the mask he was going to wear or the
8:35
Speaker 2: weapon he was going to use or what he was
8:37
Speaker 2: going to say to the victims. But I don't think
8:40
Speaker 2: he focused on the thought about the more important details
8:43
Speaker 2: if you're talking about avoiding capture. So this is why
8:46
Speaker 2: there is that camp of people who say that maybe,
8:48
Speaker 2: just maybe, Koberger wanted to get caught for whatever reason. Now,
8:54
Speaker 2: I don't find that the likeliest Scenario here, but I
8:57
Speaker 2: won't discount it yet because I don't know So I
9:04
Speaker 2: think he got caught up in a fantasy and focused
9:06
Speaker 2: on those things at the expense of stepping back and
9:09
Speaker 2: going Okay, this is a crime. I'm committing murder if
9:12
Speaker 2: I'm going to evade capture I need to do this
9:15
Speaker 2: as opposed to I'm going to fulfill this fantasy that
9:18
Speaker 2: I've had for so long. I And I certainly think
9:21
Speaker 2: there is an element of all of that. Getting a
9:23
Speaker 2: little too carried away, finally living out your fantasy, and
9:27
Speaker 2: then when you're committing the act, forgetting yourself. Returning to
9:32
Speaker 2: see the circus. After allegedly murdering Gonsalves, Mogan, Kurnodal, and Chapin,
9:37
Speaker 2: Koberger returned to the scene of the crime at 1122
9:40
Speaker 2: King Street the following morning, police claim, with his cell
9:43
Speaker 2: phone pinging in the area around 9 a.m. It's unclear
9:47
Speaker 2: what reason Koberger has given to the police for being
9:50
Speaker 2: in the area at the time, if any. If he
9:53
Speaker 2: was smart, he wouldn't say a word. Not one word
9:55
Speaker 2: to the police. At the time of the murders, Koberger
9:59
Speaker 2: was studied. for a doctorate in criminology at Washington State University,
10:03
Speaker 2: which is roughly a 15-minute drive from Moscow. In Johnston's
10:09
Speaker 2: professional opinion, she believes Koberger returned to the scene of
10:12
Speaker 2: the crime to relive the fantasy.
10:15
Speaker 1: That's what I said, too.
10:16
Speaker 2: I think that if he was back there like the
10:18
Speaker 2: Pings say he was, he was going to observe his work.
10:21
Speaker 2: Either that or he was worried that there wasn't a
10:24
Speaker 2: bigger police presence or any police presence considering these murders
10:28
Speaker 2: occurred so many hours previously. So he might have been
10:32
Speaker 2: a little shook by that as well. She said it's
10:36
Speaker 2: not typical for murderers to return to the scene of
10:39
Speaker 2: the crime, but a larger percentage of serial killers do.
10:42
Speaker 2: And I think that's to relive their fantasy and what
10:45
Speaker 2: they did. Why did Koberger do it? It could be
10:49
Speaker 2: as practical as, damn it, I left my knife sheath behind.
10:52
Speaker 2: Let me see if I can go and get it. Maybe,
10:54
Speaker 2: but I doubt that. Or he could have gone to
10:58
Speaker 2: see if anything had been discovered yet. This is part
11:00
Speaker 2: of the fantasy. Let me see if anyone found them
11:03
Speaker 2: or if the police are there. I think he wanted
11:06
Speaker 2: to watch the circus unfold firsthand only because it's so
11:09
Speaker 2: hard to imagine that at 9 o'clock in the morning,
11:12
Speaker 2: you're going to what? Slip back in in broad daylight
11:15
Speaker 2: and go and get the knife sheath? I think it's
11:17
Speaker 2: more likely he wanted to see if anything had been
11:19
Speaker 2: discovered at this point. And I think that's probably what
11:23
Speaker 2: was going on. He wanted to see what was going
11:25
Speaker 2: on at the house, if anything was cracking off yet,
11:28
Speaker 2: and he wanted to admire his work. Lurking in chat rooms?
11:33
Speaker 2: It's also Johnson's belief that Koberger may have been lurking
11:36
Speaker 2: in chat rooms and forums discussing the case, as he
11:39
Speaker 2: has been suggested and rumored online. Some followers of the
11:43
Speaker 2: case believe Koberger was behind a Facebook user by the
11:46
Speaker 2: name of Papa Rogers and the Reddit poster Inside Looking,
11:49
Speaker 2: which both appeared to have detailed knowledge of the case
11:52
Speaker 2: in the weeks following the murders.
11:54
Speaker 1: I don't believe that he was either of those people,
11:56
Speaker 1: just to be clear.
11:58
Speaker 2: I think that it was just, you know, the typical
12:00
Speaker 2: trolls that you see in cases like this, inserting themselves
12:04
Speaker 2: into the conversation and trying to get some serotonin pops
12:08
Speaker 2: from getting likes on the internet or whatever. Papa Rogers
12:12
Speaker 2: was a member of the University of Idaho Murders Case
12:15
Speaker 2: Discussion Facebook group until the account was removed after posting
12:19
Speaker 2: some really creepy stuff. Group administrator Christine Cameron said, on
12:23
Speaker 2: November 30th, Papa Rogers posted in the group, of the
12:27
Speaker 2: evidence released, the murder weapon has been consistent as a
12:30
Speaker 2: large fixed blade knife. This leads me to believe they
12:33
Speaker 2: found the sheath. This evidence was released prior to autopsies.
12:37
Speaker 2: So very simply could have made a good guess, right?
12:41
Speaker 2: They know it's a fixed blade knife. So how do
12:43
Speaker 2: they know that? Well, either the wounds or the dude
12:46
Speaker 2: left the sheath. So it's not that huge of a leap, right?
12:51
Speaker 2: And automatically people thinking that this guy was Papa Roger
12:54
Speaker 2: was a bit laughable to me to tell you the truth.
12:58
Speaker 2: Police had revealed they were looking for a bladed murder weapon,
13:01
Speaker 2: but the discovery of the sheath wouldn't be revealed until January.
13:05
Speaker 2: Jennifer Kofendaffer, a former FBI agent, tweeted her belief that
13:09
Speaker 2: Koberger was behind the account. And while I think that
13:13
Speaker 2: Jennifer Kofendaffer does a great job when she's breaking down
13:16
Speaker 2: these cases and talking about them, I don't agree with
13:19
Speaker 2: her here. I don't think that this was Brian Koberger.
13:23
Speaker 2: Johnston Johnston believes that Kohlberger would have been engaging with
13:27
Speaker 2: posts about the murders online to stroke his ego. He
13:30
Speaker 2: strikes me as somebody who would definitely want to scratch
13:34
Speaker 2: that itch, but also would really need to be involved
13:37
Speaker 2: in the media coverage. But under the radar, she said,
13:40
Speaker 2: and I think it was more lurking for Kohlberger. I
13:43
Speaker 2: don't think he was interacting. I think he was lurking
13:45
Speaker 2: and reading all the different posts about him and taking
13:48
Speaker 2: great joy in it. I think he'd feel the need
13:52
Speaker 2: to offer his opinions about things. It wouldn't surprise me
13:55
Speaker 2: if he'd been on forums speculating about these murders or
13:58
Speaker 2: putting forth pretty important ideas in a way that kind
14:02
Speaker 2: of lets people know that he's super smart and he
14:04
Speaker 2: might have some amazing criminal insights. Murderers can get some
14:08
Speaker 2: delight and satisfaction from this. I think he'd need to
14:11
Speaker 2: feed his ego this way, but not somebody who's going
14:15
Speaker 2: to write a letter to police saying, ha.
14:18
Speaker 1: Ha, catch me if you can. Unsealed warrant.
14:21
Speaker 2: On Wednesday, a Washington court unsealed a search warrant used
14:25
Speaker 2: to retrieve evidence from the home and office of Brian Kohlberger.
14:28
Speaker 2: Items retrieved from his residence included a collection of dark
14:32
Speaker 2: red cuttings from a pillow with a reddish brown stain
14:35
Speaker 2: and part of a mattress covered with stains. Other items
14:38
Speaker 2: listed include a nitrate-type black glove, store receipts, and a
14:42
Speaker 2: Dickies tag, several hair strands, dust from a vacuum, a
14:46
Speaker 2: fire TV stick, and a computer tower, among other items.
14:51
Speaker 2: The documents made no mention of items retrieved from the
14:54
Speaker 2: suspect's office. There was nothing retrieved from the suspect's office,
14:57
Speaker 2: according to the search warrant. It's currently unclear whether anything
15:02
Speaker 2: was retrieved or whether that information.
15:04
Speaker 1: Is currently under seal.
15:05
Speaker 2: Kohlberger is facing four counts of first-degree murder and a
15:09
Speaker 2: felony burglary charge. He has denied any involvement in the killings,
15:13
Speaker 2: but is yet to enter a formal plea. Kohlberger remains
15:16
Speaker 2: in custody at the Latah County Jail in Idaho. He
15:20
Speaker 2: is expected to appear in court on June 26th. All right, well,
15:24
Speaker 2: there you have it, another expert giving us their take
15:27
Speaker 2: on what they see Brian Kohlberger as and what they
15:30
Speaker 2: see his motivations possibly as being. If you'd like to
15:35
Speaker 2: contact me, you can do that at BobbyCapucci at ProtonMail.com.
15:40
Speaker 2: That's B-O-B-B-Y-C-A-P-U-C-C-I at ProtonMail.com. You can also find me on
15:48
Speaker 2: Twitter at B-O-B-B-Y underscore C-A-P-U-C-C-I. The link that I discussed
15:55
Speaker 2: can be found in the description box. What's up, everyone,
15:59
Speaker 2: and welcome back to the program. One of the most
16:04
Speaker 2: confounding things about the murders that took place in Moscow
16:08
Speaker 2: is what motivated the killer to do this.
16:13
Speaker 1: Was it a.
16:13
Speaker 2: Targeted attack against one of the students? Was it a
16:17
Speaker 2: targeted attack against the house itself? A random attack of
16:22
Speaker 2: opportunity by some sicko? We just don't know. All that
16:27
Speaker 2: we do know is that something horrendous happened in this
16:31
Speaker 2: house And these four kids were murdered. And we still
16:35
Speaker 2: have no information as far as who the suspect is,
16:39
Speaker 2: if there's a person of interest. We have no murder weapon.
16:43
Speaker 2: We can't find the Hyundai Elantra yet. So it certainly
16:47
Speaker 2: looks like the investigators still have their work cut out
16:51
Speaker 2: for them. As we're now into the seventh week of
16:54
Speaker 2: the murders of the investigation into who murdered Zanna, Ethan, Kaylee,
17:01
Speaker 2: and Madison. Today we have an article from the Express headline,
17:07
Speaker 2: Idaho murder suspect knew the place as they headed straight
17:11
Speaker 2: for one of the girls on the third floor. Idaho
17:15
Speaker 2: police have put out multiple appeals urging members of the
17:18
Speaker 2: public to come forward with information as no suspect has
17:22
Speaker 2: emerged six weeks from the killing of four students. This
17:27
Speaker 2: article was authored by Aurora Basodi. It has been six
17:34
Speaker 2: weeks since four University of Idaho students were stabbed to
17:37
Speaker 2: death in their off-campus home. The perpetrator of the gruesome
17:42
Speaker 2: Idaho murders knew the place and knew how to best
17:45
Speaker 2: reach his targets without raising the alarm, pathologist Dr. Michael
17:49
Speaker 2: Bodden has suggested. And we heard from Michael Bodden earlier
17:53
Speaker 2: in the investigation about what the coroner had to say.
17:58
Speaker 2: And of course, Michael Bodden wasn't really on board with
18:01
Speaker 2: what the coroner was talking about.
18:03
Speaker 1: Had his own opinions.
18:05
Speaker 2: And this is a man, for those of you not familiar,
18:07
Speaker 2: who has his own share of controversy throughout the years,
18:11
Speaker 2: but also a.
18:11
Speaker 1: Man who has sat in for.
18:15
Speaker 2: So many autopsies that it's not even funny, hundreds and
18:17
Speaker 2: hundreds and hundreds.
18:19
Speaker 1: And in fact, he was brought in.
18:21
Speaker 2: As an expert for Jeffrey Epstein's autopsy as well by
18:25
Speaker 2: Jeffrey Epstein's brother. And he was the one who found
18:29
Speaker 2: out or pointed out Things like the hyoid bone being broken,
18:33
Speaker 2: some of the other issues with the condition of Jeffrey
18:37
Speaker 2: Epstein's body that would lead people to believe that it
18:40
Speaker 2: wasn't a suicide. So it was Michael Bodden who brought
18:44
Speaker 2: a lot of that up. And there's some people that
18:47
Speaker 2: swear by what Michael Bodden does. And there's other people
18:51
Speaker 2: who think he's a charlatan. So like everything else, you'll
18:55
Speaker 2: have to make up your own mind about that. The
19:01
Speaker 2: bodies of University of Idaho students Kaylee Gonsalves, Madison Mogan,
19:05
Speaker 2: Zanna Kernodle, and Kernodle's boyfriend, Ethan Chapin, were found over
19:10
Speaker 2: two floors of an off-campus residence in Moscow on November 13th.
19:15
Speaker 1: Dr.
19:16
Speaker 2: Bodden claimed evidence suggested the killer knew at least one
19:19
Speaker 2: of the victims and acted with precision to hit his target.
19:23
Speaker 2: So according to Dr. Bodden, This was a targeted attack
19:27
Speaker 2: on one of the students upstairs, and they knew who
19:31
Speaker 2: the person was that they were looking to kill, and
19:34
Speaker 2: they did it with precision. Now, remember, Dr. Botten doesn't
19:39
Speaker 2: have access to the crime scene. He doesn't have access
19:42
Speaker 2: to all of the information that the investigators have, but
19:46
Speaker 2: he's giving his expert opinion on the information that we
19:50
Speaker 2: have available the forensic pathologist said the evidence thus far
19:55
Speaker 2: would indicate that whoever went into the residence and killed
19:58
Speaker 2: the four people stabbed them with the same knife and
20:02
Speaker 2: they knew the place so that certainly fits with what
20:05
Speaker 2: we've heard from the official narrative they haven't said anything
20:08
Speaker 2: about multiple weapons In fact, they're looking for a military
20:12
Speaker 2: style K-Bar slash Rambo knife. And they went around to
20:17
Speaker 2: some of the stores in Moscow looking to see if
20:20
Speaker 2: anyone had purchased a knife like that. Then we find
20:23
Speaker 2: out in an article following that up that they didn't
20:26
Speaker 2: go to some of the stores that were in Moscow.
20:29
Speaker 2: And some of these sporting goods stores never even seen
20:32
Speaker 2: a detective show up there looking.
20:34
Speaker 1: For the knife.
20:35
Speaker 2: Now, for me, I don't find that to be that
20:37
Speaker 2: big of a deal. Because I don't think that this
20:40
Speaker 2: knife was purchased in Moscow anyway. I think this person
20:44
Speaker 2: came with this knife already and used this knife that
20:48
Speaker 2: they've already had in their possession. Why would you purchase
20:52
Speaker 2: the weapon right before you're going to commit the murders?
20:55
Speaker 2: Unless you don't care about getting caught. And everything we
20:58
Speaker 2: can see up to this point, at least in my opinion,
21:01
Speaker 2: shows me that this person has no desire to be captured.
21:08
Speaker 1: He knew how to get up to the third floor.
21:10
Speaker 2: It appears to be that one of the girls on
21:12
Speaker 2: the third floor was a target and would have known
21:15
Speaker 2: the person. Then they went downstairs, woke up the people
21:18
Speaker 2: on the second floor, and stabbed them to death. So
21:22
Speaker 2: according to Dr. Bodden, in his opinion, either Kaylee or
21:26
Speaker 2: Madison was the target. And the killer went upstairs directly
21:31
Speaker 2: to their rooms and murdered them first. Now again, we
21:35
Speaker 2: have to remember, Dr. Bodden only has access to what
21:38
Speaker 2: we have access to. Now, maybe he has someone close
21:42
Speaker 2: to the investigation that's a source or something like that.
21:45
Speaker 2: I can't comment on anything like that because I don't know.
21:49
Speaker 2: But he's not part of the official investigation. I just
21:52
Speaker 2: want to make that clear. The two people on the
21:57
Speaker 2: first floor, which is away from the other floors, were
22:00
Speaker 2: not touched and did not hear anything. For the moment,
22:03
Speaker 2: it's four unsolved murders Six weeks later, and real fear.
22:07
Speaker 2: He is not wrong about any of that. The fear
22:11
Speaker 2: is palpable. And some of the emails I've received from
22:15
Speaker 2: people in the local area, people are really feeling scared
22:18
Speaker 2: about what went on. And people are concerned that this
22:21
Speaker 2: killer is still in their community. I've had people send
22:25
Speaker 2: me emails talking about how they've went out and bought shotguns,
22:29
Speaker 2: how they're walking around with mace, all kinds of stuff.
22:35
Speaker 2: The bodies were discovered by the four victims' surviving roommates,
22:39
Speaker 2: Dylan Mortensen and Bethany Funk, on the morning of November 13th.
22:44
Speaker 2: All five residents and Mr. Chapin had been out the
22:47
Speaker 2: evening before and returned separately to the residence after midnight.
22:51
Speaker 2: And again, I just can't shake the fact, or the
22:54
Speaker 2: feeling I guess I should say, that something went down
22:57
Speaker 2: at that Sigma Chi party. Something happened there, whatever it was.
23:01
Speaker 2: I don't know if it was the catalyst that led
23:04
Speaker 2: to these murders or whatever, but we're not getting enough
23:07
Speaker 2: information out of that Sigma Chi house. And I would
23:11
Speaker 2: think that we would be getting a whole ton more
23:13
Speaker 2: than what we're receiving, considering the day and age we're
23:16
Speaker 2: living in. And fraternity dudes are always on their phones,
23:20
Speaker 2: just like sorority girls. The coroner's report found all four
23:24
Speaker 2: of the victims were likely asleep when they were stabbed repeatedly,
23:28
Speaker 2: and some of them had defensive wounds. Former FBI agent
23:32
Speaker 2: Mary Ellen O'Toole suggested the killer used a pretty sturdy
23:36
Speaker 2: knife they had employed before and likely did not dispose
23:40
Speaker 2: of it after the murder.
23:42
Speaker 1: Now, I don't know about all that.
23:44
Speaker 2: Obviously, I'm not a trained FBI agent, but it would
23:47
Speaker 2: seem to me unless this is like really a serial
23:50
Speaker 2: killer type situation where they memorialize things that this person would.
23:55
Speaker 1: Get rid of the weapon.
23:56
Speaker 2: You don't want to get caught with a murder weapon
23:58
Speaker 2: that you use to kill four people with. toss that
24:02
Speaker 2: bad boy right in the lake, toss it in the ocean,
24:05
Speaker 2: whatever it is, but don't get caught with it. Now,
24:08
Speaker 2: if you're a serial killer or some kind of psychopath
24:10
Speaker 2: who takes souvenirs and stuff like that, that's a whole
24:15
Speaker 2: different ballgame. But I don't know if that's where we're
24:18
Speaker 2: at in this case. I don't know if this is
24:20
Speaker 2: a serial killer. I have no idea, folks. I'll just
24:24
Speaker 2: be very honest with you. Usually I'm blowing with the
24:27
Speaker 2: wind and I have an idea one way or the other,
24:30
Speaker 2: but here... Man, this is confounding. Moscow police said in
24:37
Speaker 2: an update last week that they had received thousands of
24:40
Speaker 2: tips and continue to investigate potential leads to solve the murder.
24:45
Speaker 2: They confirm Ms. Funk and Ms. Mortensen are not believed
24:48
Speaker 2: to have been involved and several suspects have already been cleared.
24:53
Speaker 1: Dr.
24:53
Speaker 2: Bodden said the information available so far suggests the case
24:57
Speaker 2: is unlikely to go cold and the.
24:58
Speaker 1: Police will locate the killer.
25:01
Speaker 2: He added one in 50% now in the United States
25:04
Speaker 2: become cold cases don't get solved. So that has to
25:09
Speaker 2: be kept in mind, but there should be a lot
25:12
Speaker 2: of information available at the scene and the close community.
25:15
Speaker 2: It doesn't look like it will become a cold case.
25:18
Speaker 2: And I agree with that. I think there is way
25:20
Speaker 2: too much coming in still for this to even be
25:22
Speaker 2: thought about as being cold yet. Now, does that mean
25:25
Speaker 2: it won't become cold? I can't say that either. I mean,
25:29
Speaker 2: look at the Delphi case. You had two young girls
25:33
Speaker 2: murdered brutally. And it took how long to bring Richard
25:37
Speaker 2: Allen's bitch ass in? However, some of the families of
25:42
Speaker 2: the victims have questioned the conduct of the local police
25:44
Speaker 2: department and called for other agencies to be involved in
25:48
Speaker 2: the investigation. Well, we know that other agencies are involved.
25:51
Speaker 2: The FBI, ISP, and I'm sure a plethora of other
25:57
Speaker 2: agencies around the country have offered their help. Olivia Gonsalves,
26:03
Speaker 2: sister to victim Kaylee Gonsalves, took particular issue with suggestions
26:07
Speaker 2: the murder was a targeted attack on one of the
26:10
Speaker 2: residents of the house. Ms. Gonsalves said, law enforcement is
26:14
Speaker 2: kind of throwing around this word targeted, but we don't
26:17
Speaker 2: know what that means. And it almost makes it feel
26:19
Speaker 2: alienating because we don't have any more information on that.
26:24
Speaker 2: I just don't know who the target was. If it
26:26
Speaker 2: was one of them, if it was all of them,
26:28
Speaker 2: I just don't know. And I think that's where we're
26:31
Speaker 2: all at, right? None of us know. And the investigators,
26:35
Speaker 2: they aren't going to release that information. They feel like
26:38
Speaker 2: that's an integral part of their investigation and they're going
26:42
Speaker 2: to play that close to the vest. So we'll have
26:45
Speaker 2: to see what comes of all of this. But it's
26:47
Speaker 2: pretty interesting when you start looking at all of these
26:50
Speaker 2: opinions that these experts are giving about what might have
26:54
Speaker 2: went down. And if you start piecing it all together,
26:56
Speaker 2: a bit of a profile starts to emerge.
27:00
Speaker 1: So that's going to do it for this one, folks.
27:03
Speaker 2: If you'd like to contact me, you can do that
27:05
Speaker 2: at bobbycapucci at protonmail.com. That's B-O-B-B-Y-C-A-P-U-C-C-I at protonmail.com. You can
27:14
Speaker 2: also find me on Twitter at B-O-B-B-Y underscore C-A-P-U-C-C-I. The
27:21
Speaker 2: link that I discussed can be found in the description box. Everyone,
27:26
Speaker 2: and welcome back to the program. I think in the
27:29
Speaker 2: wake of the affidavit, everybody's wondering the same thing. Why
27:34
Speaker 2: didn't Brian Koberger kill the other roommate when he ran
27:38
Speaker 2: into her in that hallway? And by the grace of God,
27:41
Speaker 2: or whatever it is you believe in, she was able
27:45
Speaker 2: to not be murdered by this madman. But the question is, why?
27:51
Speaker 2: Why would Brian Koberger Spare anyone else in this home.
27:55
Speaker 2: Especially after he just committed. These gruesome grisly.
27:59
Speaker 1: Other crimes.
28:01
Speaker 2: Well. We have a guy named John Kelly. Who is
28:04
Speaker 2: a former FBI agent. Who is talking about it. Here
28:07
Speaker 2: in this article from Fox News. So let's dive in.
28:11
Speaker 2: And see what he has to say. About this situation.
28:16
Speaker 1: Headline.
28:17
Speaker 2: Stunning new Idaho murder detail. Shows killer appeared to want
28:20
Speaker 2: to get out of Dodge. John Kelly also analyzes the
28:25
Speaker 2: cannibalistic tendencies of some serial killers. Now, the idea of
28:30
Speaker 2: eating another human being is so disgustingly absurd to me
28:34
Speaker 2: that I can't even put it into words almost. What
28:37
Speaker 2: would make you want to eat another human being? But
28:41
Speaker 2: there's people out there, as we all know, who are
28:44
Speaker 2: really into it. This article was authored by Charles Kreetz.
28:50
Speaker 2: An expert criminal profiler explained to Fox News why he
28:54
Speaker 2: believes a roommate of the four Idaho college students slain
28:58
Speaker 2: was reportedly spared after spotting the killer, a detail gleaned
29:02
Speaker 2: from a newly released court filing.
29:05
Speaker 1: And it's interesting.
29:06
Speaker 2: It's the same thing I said to myself as we
29:08
Speaker 2: were reading through that yesterday on air. And I was
29:11
Speaker 2: asking myself as I was reading through it, what would
29:15
Speaker 2: motivate him to spare one of these roommates if he
29:18
Speaker 2: ran into them in the hallway like this? It's not
29:21
Speaker 2: like he just avoided their rooms and didn't see them
29:24
Speaker 2: and left their rooms undisturbed. He actually ran in to
29:27
Speaker 2: one of the roommates and considering the carnage that he
29:30
Speaker 2: had just engaged in, I find it to be a
29:33
Speaker 2: miracle that we're not talking about five murdered kids here
29:37
Speaker 2: and only talking about four. For whatever reason, reasons that
29:41
Speaker 2: only Brian Koberger knows, he didn't attack that other roommate.
29:45
Speaker 2: And it's going to come back to haunt him because
29:48
Speaker 2: she is going to testify against him at this trial.
29:51
Speaker 2: She is the only eyewitness that can place a man
29:54
Speaker 2: that fits the description of Brian Koberger at the scene
29:58
Speaker 2: of the crime. So along with all of that other evidence,
30:00
Speaker 2: the digital evidence and the rest of it, she's going
30:03
Speaker 2: to also provide her testimony to the jurors. And that's
30:07
Speaker 2: going to be powerful. It's going to be emotional and
30:10
Speaker 2: it's going to be hard for Brian Koberger and his
30:12
Speaker 2: team to deal with it. The killer likely wanted to
30:16
Speaker 2: get out of Dodge after slaying four other people. Criminal
30:20
Speaker 2: profiler John Kelly told the Ingraham Angle on Thursday after
30:24
Speaker 2: the affidavit claimed a surviving roommate heard crying and saw
30:28
Speaker 2: a figure clad in black clothing and a mask walking
30:31
Speaker 2: toward her. Now imagine that scenario playing out in your
30:35
Speaker 2: own home. Even being a man, if I wake up
30:38
Speaker 2: in the middle of the night and I'm going downstairs
30:40
Speaker 2: to get a drink or something and there's some dude
30:43
Speaker 2: lurking around, It's going to be a problem, especially if
30:46
Speaker 2: he has a big ass knife. I'm under no illusions
30:49
Speaker 2: that I'm Superman or some kind of, you know, super
30:53
Speaker 2: human strength individual. We're all human beings. And if somebody
30:57
Speaker 2: gets the jump on you and you're sleeping or you're tired,
31:00
Speaker 2: there's no hope. But imagine being this girl coming and
31:04
Speaker 2: seeing this. I can't even begin to understand how terrified
31:08
Speaker 2: she was or what sort of trauma she was going through.
31:13
Speaker 2: So I think that all of the criticism that is
31:15
Speaker 2: being thrown her way is a little bit misguided. Now,
31:18
Speaker 2: of course, there are questions that have to be asked,
31:21
Speaker 2: like why was no 911 call made till, you know,
31:24
Speaker 2: the afternoon? But I'm sure that there's going to be
31:27
Speaker 2: a reason for it. We just don't have that reason
31:29
Speaker 2: given to us yet. Remember, it's all about context, folks.
31:33
Speaker 2: And when you're looking at something out of context, it's
31:36
Speaker 2: easy to misinterpret things. It's easy to miss things. And
31:40
Speaker 2: it's certainly easy to lose the plot. And while we
31:43
Speaker 2: do have the affidavit explaining some of this, it's not
31:46
Speaker 2: a full-on explanation like somebody sitting down and telling you
31:50
Speaker 2: what went down. This is a report that was written
31:53
Speaker 2: for the purpose of securing probable cause. So I'm sure
31:57
Speaker 2: we're going to get more context about all of this
31:59
Speaker 2: as it moves forward. Why that phone call wasn't made
32:02
Speaker 2: and what was going through her head, all of that stuff.
32:05
Speaker 2: But honestly, right now, if I was the family of
32:09
Speaker 2: the surviving roommates.
32:12
Speaker 1: I would hope that they are getting.
32:13
Speaker 2: So much love and support that it's not even funny
32:17
Speaker 2: because that's what they need right now. Remember, these are
32:19
Speaker 2: young kids we're talking about. They're on their way to,
32:23
Speaker 2: you know, becoming college graduates and chasing down their future. Now,
32:28
Speaker 2: four of them are never going to get to do that.
32:30
Speaker 2: And these other two are going to have to live
32:32
Speaker 2: with a life of trauma, a life of PTSD, and
32:36
Speaker 2: certainly a life full of survivor's guilt. So I have
32:39
Speaker 2: a lot of empathy for them. And if you want
32:42
Speaker 2: to rage out at somebody and you want to hold
32:44
Speaker 2: somebody responsible, then you should hold the suspect responsible, not
32:48
Speaker 2: the people that he victimized. The female, only identified as DM,
32:54
Speaker 2: stood in frozen shock before locking herself in the room.
32:57
Speaker 1: The affidavit stated.
32:59
Speaker 2: Host Laura Ingraham called, asked Kelly why a murderer would
33:03
Speaker 2: want to leave a surviving witness to such a grisly crime.
33:06
Speaker 2: And that's a question I had as well. Once I
33:09
Speaker 2: read that affidavit and saw that he ran into her,
33:12
Speaker 2: I was absolutely blown away that a criminology student like
33:15
Speaker 2: this working on his PhD would leave a surviving witness.
33:20
Speaker 1: That is just insane. I don't know if I buy
33:23
Speaker 1: into that.
33:45
Speaker 2: He seems like the kind of guy that was very
33:48
Speaker 2: calculated with what he was doing, knew what his goals
33:50
Speaker 2: were when he entered that home and planned on achieving
33:54
Speaker 2: those goals no matter what. And perhaps DM just wasn't
33:58
Speaker 2: part of the plan. Experts said the murderer likely believed
34:01
Speaker 2: staying in the home to kill a fifth victim would
34:03
Speaker 2: have been riskier than escaping more quickly, given that he
34:06
Speaker 2: was reportedly clad and all black and had a mask
34:09
Speaker 2: obscuring at least part of his face. I think he
34:12
Speaker 2: just had his fill for the night. and wanted out
34:15
Speaker 2: of there, Kelly said.
34:17
Speaker 1: Now look, Mr.
34:17
Speaker 2: Kelly here is obviously a professional at this and knows
34:20
Speaker 2: a lot more than I do about the criminal mind
34:23
Speaker 2: and the way these dudes operate. But it seems to
34:26
Speaker 2: me that Kohlberger doesn't fit the description of somebody who's
34:30
Speaker 2: looking to get out of Dodge. And after already committing
34:33
Speaker 2: four murders, I would expect somebody like that to commit
34:37
Speaker 2: a fifth. I truly feel like it's a miracle that
34:40
Speaker 2: she wasn't harmed or killed by this madman. Police arrested
34:44
Speaker 2: a suspect in the case, Brian Koberger, who was a
34:47
Speaker 2: PhD student at nearby Washington State University. Koberger was taken
34:52
Speaker 2: into custody at his parents' house in the Poconos after
34:55
Speaker 2: driving cross-country for the holidays. He was extradited to Idaho
35:00
Speaker 2: from a Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania jail. In regard to Koberger specifically,
35:05
Speaker 2: Ingraham cited a Newsweek story in which a forensic psychiatrist
35:09
Speaker 2: told the outlet the suspect's obsessive-compulsive eating habits indicated that
35:14
Speaker 2: He'd be afraid he'd be addicted to meat.
35:16
Speaker 1: If he ate it.
35:18
Speaker 2: Now that's quite a leap, huh? But again, these are
35:20
Speaker 2: psychologists talking like that. What the hell do I know?
35:23
Speaker 2: I'm lucky I can tie my shoes, folks, and pair
35:26
Speaker 2: my socks. So if these psychologists are saying that something
35:29
Speaker 2: like that's possible, okay. And it represented his struggle against
35:34
Speaker 2: his cannibalistic urges. The host read on, calling the report
35:37
Speaker 2: freak show central. I mean, really, all everything about this
35:41
Speaker 2: is freak show central. In my opinion, you have to
35:44
Speaker 2: be an inhuman monster to murder four people in their
35:48
Speaker 2: home while some of them are in bed. So in
35:51
Speaker 2: my opinion, calling it freakish is putting it lightly. Kelly agreed,
35:56
Speaker 2: saying the situation does sound freakish. You're absolutely right. I mean,
36:00
Speaker 2: I don't know what I'm going to hear.
36:01
Speaker 1: Next, he said.
36:02
Speaker 2: Adding serial killers like Jeffrey Dahmer had cannibalistic tendencies in
36:06
Speaker 2: terms of eating meat. Bottom line is when you look
36:10
Speaker 2: at this obsessive compulsive behavior, if you look at every
36:13
Speaker 2: single serial killer, and we've done research on this, you
36:16
Speaker 2: will find that they have some type of obsessive compulsive disorder.
36:20
Speaker 2: And like Dahmer, cannibalism is up for grabs. You know,
36:24
Speaker 2: it can happen, he said. Now, I don't know how
36:26
Speaker 2: far or how much I put into that theory of
36:29
Speaker 2: the cannibalism here, because shit, what do I know, right?
36:34
Speaker 2: I'm not going to sit here and make pretend I
36:36
Speaker 2: know the psyche of someone like Brian Koberger.
36:39
Speaker 1: I do not. What I do know is this.
36:42
Speaker 2: The fact that the other two roommates survived Is basically
36:47
Speaker 2: a miracle. And I'll continue to say that. Because when
36:50
Speaker 2: you have a madman. Going through the house.
36:53
Speaker 1: Murdering people. Indiscriminately.
36:56
Speaker 2: The way he was with a knife. And then you
36:58
Speaker 2: have two other girls. On the other floors. And they're
37:01
Speaker 2: not murdered. And he actually has a run in. With
37:04
Speaker 2: one of them.
37:05
Speaker 1: I can't even start to wrap my mind around. That scenario.
37:09
Speaker 2: Unfurling.
37:11
Speaker 1: Never mind.
37:12
Speaker 2: Just witnessing it. Imagine being the roommate. And I can't
37:16
Speaker 2: get that out of my mind, folks. I can't get
37:18
Speaker 2: that scenario out of my mind. Her coming out in
37:22
Speaker 2: the hallway, seeing this mask clad dude, and then finding
37:26
Speaker 2: out her roommates had been murdered. That's something that is
37:29
Speaker 2: taken directly out of the pages of a horror novel.
37:33
Speaker 2: Unfortunately for her and for the rest of the people
37:37
Speaker 2: who are affected, this couldn't be any more real.
37:41
Speaker 1: All right, folks. Well, that's going to do it for
37:42
Speaker 1: this one.
37:43
Speaker 2: But I wanted to get this one added to the
37:45
Speaker 2: catalog and talk a little bit about what might have
37:47
Speaker 2: motivated Brian Koberger, the suspected murderer, not to kill the
37:53
Speaker 2: remaining roommates. If you'd like to contact me, you can
37:57
Speaker 2: do that at BobbyCapucci at ProtonMail.com. That's B-O-B-B-Y-C-A-P-U-C-C-I at ProtonMail.com.
38:06
Speaker 2: You can also find me on Twitter at B-O-B-B-Y underscore C-A-P-U-C-C-I.
38:12
Speaker 2: The link that I discussed can be found in the
38:15
Speaker 2: description box. Apply.
38:17
Speaker 1: What's up, everyone, and welcome back to the program. In
38:21
Speaker 1: this episode.
38:22
Speaker 2: We're going to hear from psychotherapist John Kelly, who has
38:26
Speaker 2: a few opinions about Brian Koberger and the sheath. Now,
38:31
Speaker 2: from the very beginning, that's been a question a lot
38:34
Speaker 2: of people have asked. How is it that a criminology
38:37
Speaker 2: student can end up leaving a sheath of his knife
38:42
Speaker 2: at the scene of the crime? you would think that
38:45
Speaker 2: the sheath would have been attached to his belt or
38:48
Speaker 2: he would have had it attached somewhere on his body
38:50
Speaker 2: so that he didn't lose it, right? Now, of course,
38:54
Speaker 2: we have to take into account the fact that he
38:57
Speaker 2: was in the middle of a frenzy and it could
39:00
Speaker 2: have fallen and he didn't realize that it fell off
39:03
Speaker 2: of him until later on.
39:06
Speaker 1: But according to Mr.
39:08
Speaker 2: Kelly, he says that this has all the hallmarks Now,
39:13
Speaker 2: what is staging, you might ask? Well, according to Psychology Today,
39:18
Speaker 2: staging and posing means that the FBI profiler may also
39:22
Speaker 2: encounter deliberate alterations of the crime scene or the victim's
39:27
Speaker 2: body position at the crime scene of the murder. If
39:30
Speaker 2: these alterations are made for the purpose of confusing or
39:34
Speaker 2: otherwise misleading criminal investigators, then they are called staging and
39:39
Speaker 2: they are considered to be part of the killer's MO.
39:43
Speaker 2: So that's a little glimpse at what staging is and
39:47
Speaker 2: what John Kelly is is talking about in this article
39:51
Speaker 2: when he's talking about staging. So with that in mind,
39:55
Speaker 2: let's get into this article from Fox News and let's
39:58
Speaker 2: get caught up. Headline, Idaho Murders. How does criminology student
40:04
Speaker 2: leave crime scene with blood dripping knife? This is staging 101,
40:10
Speaker 2: says criminal profiler John Kelly. This article was authored by
40:15
Speaker 2: Michael Ruiz. The Idaho student murder suspect may not have
40:22
Speaker 2: forgotten the K-bar knife sheath found in bed with two
40:26
Speaker 2: of the four victims. It may have been planted there
40:29
Speaker 2: in an effort to mislead investigators, according to a criminal
40:32
Speaker 2: profiler who has been following the case. And I've always
40:36
Speaker 2: found it quite odd from the very beginning that this
40:39
Speaker 2: sheath happened to be left here. Unless it's one of
40:42
Speaker 2: those things that we talked about previously, you know, him
40:46
Speaker 2: losing it in a frenzy, or maybe... one of the
40:49
Speaker 2: victims grabbing at him and accidentally ripping it off of him.
40:53
Speaker 2: That stuff's all possible. But if not, did he leave
40:57
Speaker 2: this here for that purpose of staging to try and
41:01
Speaker 2: throw the investigators off? If you took a pistol out
41:05
Speaker 2: of your holster, wouldn't you put it back in, said
41:08
Speaker 2: John Kelly, a psychotherapist with experience interviewing serial killers in
41:13
Speaker 2: an interview with Fox News Digital.
41:16
Speaker 1: I don't know anybody who wouldn't.
41:18
Speaker 2: And if I went fishing and I had to take
41:20
Speaker 2: my knife out, I would put it back in the sheath.
41:23
Speaker 2: And that's a fact, right? If it came in the sheath,
41:25
Speaker 2: chances are you're going to put it back in that sheath.
41:28
Speaker 2: What are you running through the house with just an
41:31
Speaker 2: open knife and exposed knife now? If that's the case, well,
41:34
Speaker 2: the roommate, she didn't see a knife. She didn't say
41:36
Speaker 2: she did anyway, at least not in that affidavit. So
41:41
Speaker 2: where was the knife at while he was running out
41:43
Speaker 2: of the house? tucked back into his belt maybe, without
41:47
Speaker 2: the sheath. I guess all of that's possible. But you
41:50
Speaker 2: would think that if you came in there with that sheath,
41:54
Speaker 2: and as you're leaving, you go to put your knife away,
41:57
Speaker 2: and it's not there anymore, that you'd go back and
41:59
Speaker 2: try and get it. But we have to take into
42:03
Speaker 2: account all of the other things, and all of the
42:05
Speaker 2: context that is not available to us yet, and things
42:09
Speaker 2: that might seem a bit weird. Well, when you get context,
42:12
Speaker 2: as we have seen throughout this case, It changes things, right?
42:16
Speaker 2: But I find it hard to believe that he would
42:18
Speaker 2: just leave this knife sheath.
42:20
Speaker 1: Behind and not realize that he had left it.
42:25
Speaker 2: It's a reflective action, he said, adding that a vegan-like
42:28
Speaker 2: murder suspect, Brian Kohlberger, likely put the knife away somewhere
42:32
Speaker 2: in order to keep the blood from contaminating his clothes
42:35
Speaker 2: or vehicle. You're such a clean vegan who's obsessive-compulsive about
42:40
Speaker 2: what you eat and everything else, Just the hygiene of
42:44
Speaker 2: carrying a bloody knife around, wearing it somewhere on your
42:47
Speaker 2: person as you get out of the house, he said.
42:50
Speaker 2: And I didn't even think about that aspect of it, honestly.
42:53
Speaker 2: The fact that he's a vegan. But him being a
42:55
Speaker 2: vegan didn't stop him from allegedly murdering these kids, right?
43:00
Speaker 2: So I don't know how much of an effect that
43:02
Speaker 2: would have on him carrying a knife that is soiled
43:05
Speaker 2: in blood. The answer may hinge on what a surviving housemate,
43:10
Speaker 2: the only eyewitness, saw that night. A police affidavit states
43:14
Speaker 2: that she heard noises, including whimpering and crying, and then
43:19
Speaker 2: saw a masked man with bushy eyebrows leaving through a
43:22
Speaker 2: sliding door. It makes no mention of seeing an intruder
43:25
Speaker 2: carrying a weapon. And we know the sliding glass door
43:29
Speaker 2: has been talked about previously as a point of entry
43:33
Speaker 2: for the alleged killer. And my guess is that's where
43:37
Speaker 2: he came in from. Sliding glass door in, sliding glass
43:40
Speaker 2: door out. The girl didn't say anything about seeing a knife,
43:45
Speaker 2: Kelly said. Did he put it in his clothes somewhere
43:48
Speaker 2: and have blood all over? Kelly said the sheath may
43:51
Speaker 2: have been left intentionally after being wiped clean of fingerprints,
43:55
Speaker 2: but not thoroughly enough to remove the touch DNA evidence
43:58
Speaker 2: that police found on the snap. And look, that definitely tracks.
44:03
Speaker 2: Brian Koberger thinking he's smarter than everybody else, thinking he's
44:07
Speaker 2: going to throw the police off. Oh, let me leave
44:09
Speaker 2: this military style knife here. and maybe that'll throw them
44:12
Speaker 2: in a different direction. Certainly not out of the realm
44:15
Speaker 2: of possibility, and certainly a scenario that I could see
44:19
Speaker 2: playing out. The attacker could have put the knife in
44:23
Speaker 2: a different sheath, or some other sealed container left the
44:27
Speaker 2: USMC stamp sheath behind in an effort to cast suspicion
44:31
Speaker 2: on someone with ties to the military, Kelly said. This
44:35
Speaker 2: is staging 101, he continued. They're going to look at
44:38
Speaker 2: this and they're going to think it's a military guy
44:41
Speaker 2: that did this. Some guy with some kind of training
44:44
Speaker 2: who lives up the road. And that's exactly what a
44:48
Speaker 2: lot of the people on the Internet thought right away
44:51
Speaker 2: when they heard it was a K-bar style knife. There
44:54
Speaker 2: were a few different types that people were talking about. One,
44:58
Speaker 2: obviously military. The other was a hunter type. Oh, it
45:03
Speaker 2: has to be somebody who's comfortable hunting. skinning animals and
45:06
Speaker 2: they're obviously a hunter meanwhile brian coberger is about as
45:11
Speaker 2: much of a hunter as i am an astronaut holidays
45:14
Speaker 2: have thought this was the perfect ruse again he's no
45:17
Speaker 2: genius his ruse and staging set him up to get
45:21
Speaker 2: caught kelly said so he's out here trying to be
45:24
Speaker 2: the smartest man in the room when in reality all
45:27
Speaker 2: he is is the moron from moscow If he had
45:31
Speaker 2: simply forgotten the knife, police may have found more DNA
45:35
Speaker 2: on the sheath, along with fingerprints, Kelly said. As of
45:39
Speaker 2: a gag order on January 3rd, police have still not
45:42
Speaker 2: recovered the murder weapon. And as I've said several times now,
45:47
Speaker 2: I highly doubt that murder weapon is ever going to
45:51
Speaker 2: get recovered. And the task of them trying to recover it,
45:55
Speaker 2: we're talking about monumental. Look at all of the miles
45:58
Speaker 2: Brian Koberger put between him, and law enforcement, and him,
46:03
Speaker 2: and the crime scene, and how many hours he wasn't
46:06
Speaker 2: under surveillance during that time. That knife could literally be anywhere.
46:14
Speaker 2: That could have precipitated the question, who else did you arrest,
46:18
Speaker 2: Kelly continued, referencing a rumored statement that Koberger made to
46:22
Speaker 2: police when they took him into custody on December 30th.
46:26
Speaker 2: I think he had to believe that he was going
46:29
Speaker 2: to lead them to somebody, some direction, with the sheath there.
46:33
Speaker 2: Kelly's hypothesis is not unreasonable, said Paul Morrow, a retired
46:37
Speaker 2: New York Police Department inspector who is also an attorney.
46:41
Speaker 2: And I agree with that. Certainly a hypothesis that should
46:45
Speaker 2: be looked at. And if you're looking at this crime
46:48
Speaker 2: scene as an investigator, somebody rebuilding it, recreating it, trying
46:52
Speaker 2: to build a profile on Brian Koberger, you're definitely looking
46:56
Speaker 2: at that angle for sure. The other side of that
47:01
Speaker 2: would be that he was in a mentally altered state.
47:04
Speaker 2: He told Fox News Digital. And after killing those kids,
47:09
Speaker 2: you know, he was in a euphoric state. That's how
47:12
Speaker 2: these guys get off. Unfortunately, that's what they're into. That's
47:15
Speaker 2: why they're doing this. So he could have easily had
47:19
Speaker 2: a altered state of mind and been in a rush
47:22
Speaker 2: and left that she there. That's the likeliest outcome here.
47:27
Speaker 2: But the hypothesis being put forward by Mr. Kelly certainly
47:32
Speaker 2: needs to be explored as well. Koberger, a criminal justice Ph.D.
47:36
Speaker 2: student at Washington State University, is accused of entering a
47:40
Speaker 2: six bedroom rental home near the University of Idaho campus
47:44
Speaker 2: just seven miles away around 4 a.m. on November 13th
47:49
Speaker 2: of 2022. Inside, police say he ambushed four students, some
47:55
Speaker 2: of whom may have been sleeping with a large knife.
47:58
Speaker 2: The following day, police found 21-year-old best friends Kaylee Gonsalves
48:04
Speaker 2: and Madison Mogan dead in a bed on the third floor.
48:07
Speaker 2: On the second level, they found housemate Zanna Kernodel and
48:11
Speaker 2: her visiting boyfriend Ethan Chapin. All four had been stabbed
48:15
Speaker 2: multiple times. Koberger faces four counts of first-degree murder and
48:21
Speaker 2: a felony burglary charge. He could face the death penalty
48:24
Speaker 2: if convicted. He's being held without bail and is due
48:27
Speaker 2: back in court on June 26th. Judge Megan Marshall issued
48:33
Speaker 2: the initial gag order on January 3rd, shortly after Kohlberger's arrest,
48:38
Speaker 2: restricting comment from prosecutors, the defense, law enforcement, and other officials.
48:46
Speaker 2: All right, so there is another hypothesis, another theory that's
48:51
Speaker 2: being put forward by one of the experts. Like all
48:54
Speaker 2: of those theories, like all of the hypotheses, you got
48:58
Speaker 2: to take it with a grain of salt. Until we
49:00
Speaker 2: have context, until we can see some tangible evidence in
49:05
Speaker 2: front of us that's more than circumstantial, my suggestion is
49:09
Speaker 2: to remember that these experts that are giving us their opinion,
49:13
Speaker 2: and good, qualified opinion, mind you, well, they're not working
49:17
Speaker 2: on the case behind the scenes.
49:19
Speaker 1: So they're just giving.
49:20
Speaker 2: us their expert opinion on what they know and while
49:24
Speaker 2: that's valuable it is not gospel so what do you
49:27
Speaker 2: folks think do you think that he left that sheet
49:30
Speaker 2: there on purpose or was it an accident while he
49:34
Speaker 2: was all gassed up shoot me some emails and let
49:37
Speaker 2: me know Alright everybody, that's going to do it for
49:41
Speaker 2: this one. All of the information that goes with this
49:44
Speaker 2: episode can be found in the description box.