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REALLY JEWISH S1:E5 - Resilience · REALLY JEWISH with Oliver Joseph

• Yair Eldan: Welcome to Really Jewish. Welcome to our conversation about what it is to be Jewish. Hi, Oliver. If you back for another listen welcome back. If you are here for the first time, shalom, bruchim habayim. We are delighted to have you. The Really Jewish Project is one where we think about big topics that shape the Jewish world, but also is a personal examination of who we are and how we are personally. Oliver Spike Joseph: Hi. Yair Eldan: affected by how live out our Jewish life. I am Yair Eldan. I'm a law professor in Israel. With is Oliver Joseph. I am ⁓ secular. Oliver a rabbi in the UK and obviously religious. Oliver. Oliver Spike Joseph: Welcome. So this week we're back for leg number five. I've got a bit of a cold so my voice is a bit deeper. We are talking about resilience. We are shaping this podcast as we go and it feels important also to somehow respond to events in the outside world. So this week we are talking resilience. It's been a tough week for the Jewish community in the UK. The community in Israel is enduring. We are talking about resilience. We are shaping this podcast as we go and it feels important also to somehow respond to events in the outside world. So this week we are talking resilience. It's been a tough week for the Jewish community in the UK. The community in Israel is enduring. sometimes hourly missile strikes and we are talking resilience. sometimes hourly missile strikes and we are talking resilience. Yair, me a little bit how you sit on this topic of resilience today. Yair Eldan: I think most important distinction I can have from my experience in life, you know, we are old enough, ⁓ we some things, we were affected by suffering and of our dear ones, of ourselves. losses. I think the most important distinction I can have is between resilience and endurance. For me, resilience is something deeper, something that is in a way, ⁓ I'm talking to a religious guy, more if there is God for me, I think he would aim to resilience, meaning Coping suffering in life in very ⁓ in self-aware way in self-consciousness with understanding with having a perspective about life while endurance is more superficial it's it's you know getting hit by life and Continuing and there is more ⁓ I don't know, ⁓ a basic about endurance and something more deep about resilience for me. if, I mean, I think about my past times, you know. dark times in the army, dark times after my divorce, times after seeing close relatives suffer from illnesses. I think that what, you ⁓ I go through it without going into it, right? ⁓ So didn't endure it. mean, endurance, of course, you you have to go through it. But I think what enabled me to... ⁓ come from the ashes was the feeling that I looked into it. I understood that my suffering is connected to other suffering. I had a perspective suddenly. I went into it for the first few days, months, a little bit, but I ⁓ went out and I had a and that's what gave me the feeling of endurance. How is it for you, Oliver, as a religious person Oliver Spike Joseph: I relate to the distinction. I want to also talk a little bit personally about these times. think my sense of endurance is day to day. That we get through the day. think one of the sayings that I live by is one of the ones that came from my late mum of blessed memory who would always say, go to bed, you'll feel better in the morning. And it was, it was, I say it to friends and people who I support in the community now. Sometimes the best you can do is just to put your head down on a pillow and go to sleep. And there's something about just getting to the end of the day, which is, know, ⁓ achievement. ⁓ struggle with that sometimes as well, because, you know, when, when, when the kids are really having a tough day and when the kids have a tough day, we have a tough day and you just want to get to the end of the day. Yair Eldan: Ha ha ha, Oliver Spike Joseph: That feels sad, like there's a pain there that you're, the best thing you can do is to survive till it gets dark. But I relate to that that's endurance. Resilience, I think you're right, is something greater. I relate to, in the context of this conversation, resilience for me is about somehow relating my own personal experience to a much broader experience of of peoplehood, of community, of those in the past who have lived through the same and much worse, let's say. it's through that strength, and not even through that strength, just through that sense that my experience is greater than my own personal experience, that I'm able to come out the other side and make meaning of experience. And also to hold in to do that. at a community level also feels like some kind of support, some kind of resilience. Yair Eldan: I had one comment and one picture in my head when you spoke, which is, you know, the... The fact that in Israel after a suicide bomber exploding in the middle of a city, after hour two, ⁓ you see in Israel ⁓ the is going back to normal. And there's something crazy about it, but it's also reflect. sense of livelihood, of endurance in a very deep way. mean, going ⁓ ⁓ reality. And everybody who visits here in Israel from ⁓ says that there is something about this ⁓ country is full of life. And I thought about it because for me ⁓ exact and the fact that it's connected to community as you said For me, connected to a more superficial. I I connected to a more ⁓ superficial Dealing reality not judgmental but I'm if you want to be resilient We're talking about a deeper process. on community is great. there are researchers in Israel after October 7th that say that leaning on community one of the factors that kept people ⁓ ⁓ not being And who didn't have a community to rely on got into ⁓ depression. Oliver Spike Joseph: So, I mean, there's like all of these pictures at the moment of, for those who dwell on social media, which I do a little bit, like, for example, there was a missile strike in Tel Aviv yesterday, I believe, and next the missile strike where it struck is a queue for coffee, kind of a couple of hours later. ⁓ know, who ever visited Tel Aviv knows about Tel Aviv's relationship with good coffee. Yair Eldan: You're right. Oliver Spike Joseph: I like people in bomb shelters making kind of like stupid videos and funny videos and, know, Naderet, one of the kind of staples ⁓ of society, the Friday Night Live of Israel, you know, really ramping up comedy and ⁓ like comedy sessions this time in relation to the Houthim, the Houthis and the Iranians and making fun of everybody, especially the Israelis. Yair Eldan: Mm. Oliver Spike Joseph: But there seems to be that, think something of that positioning does into our capacity to be resilient. I understand what you're saying that it has to be a personal journey and is by its very nature a personal journey, the journey towards resilience. But I also want to say that context matters. we have around us, you know, I know from my own personal experience as a rabbi that apart, know, to jumping around like a part of the experience right now of Jewish community here is about a real sense of isolation. And I think that does have a real impact on our capacity to endure. can't speak for everybody because my work is not with everybody. My work is with, you know, a very, you know, bespoke corners of the community. ⁓ a part of the experience right now of Jewish community here is about a real sense of isolation. And I think that does have a ⁓ real impact on our capacity endure. There are people in the NHS, there are people in therapy settings, there are people in in all sorts of professions up down the country. And people speak of a real sense that once upon a time they felt very, very at home in UK community, as if almost, without any boundaries between themselves. There are people in the NHS, there are people in therapy settings, there are people in in all sorts of professions up down the country. And mostly my work is in the Southeast of the UK, in London and the areas around it. And people speak of a real sense that once upon a time they felt very, very at home in UK as almost, without any boundaries between and the people they worked with, religion, faith, nationality they came from. And now I think particularly since October 7th and probably even more ramped up now to a degree or another with the war with Iran, there is a kind of differential that's opened up between many people who identify strongly with the Jewish community, many people who have friends, relatives, in Israel, who feel like they are ostracized. and the people they worked with, religion, faith, nationality they came from. And now I think particularly since October 7th and probably even more ramped up now to a degree or another with the war with Iran, there is a kind of differential that's opened up between many people who identify strongly with the Jewish community, many people who have friends, relatives, in Israel, who feel like they are ostracized. And each individual reason of why that is and why that's exposed is different, but the thread is common. I within context, people's capacity to is reduced because your sense of belonging has been uprooted. Now, some people have up for that with by buying back into the Jewish community in a stronger way. But for some people that journey has become very lonely. And we'd love to hear from you if you're listening along and you're one of those people who all feels more lonely at time or feels less lonely at time. That's an interesting kind of feedback that we'd love to hear from you at home. Yair, what's your take? I'd also, Yair, I'd love to hear a little bit more about your personal experience right now, of yom yomi, day to day of what it is to live in Israel right now, because we both have our own Yair Eldan: Mmm. Oliver Spike Joseph: specific personal experience historically, which I think should come into this conversation. But also we're talking about this now in terms of how each of our communities, specifically Jewish communities, are enduring at the moment. Yair Eldan: ⁓ Yeah, I I think the sense of and being to control the situation is very connected to endurance. I when you are ostracized or getting anti-semitic comments and feeling ostracized, obviously you feel that you don't control reality and you're. left for the mercy of others that's very disturbing feeling and actually when think about it State of Israel was supposed to actually, give this sense of control to Jews, right? And everybody you know, is joking about the fact that Israel is now the ⁓ unsafe place Jews ⁓ in the But I disagree in a very way because in terms of control, It's true that there is something very unsafe about this situation. And to be honest, there are nights here in Jerusalem where we stand in entrance of our apartment with our three kids and we the ⁓ missiles us and we're And scared and we feel ⁓ a total loss control when you think about it. It could hit you you ⁓ have nothing to do it. ⁓ 'the ⁓ I'm just putting Oliver the risk management here is is fascinating it's actually in a way sad and funny because there was a time that we decided not to go and Sleep in the shelter with our kids ⁓ because it was it's too much. It's too But suddenly there were more alarms at night. So you actually manage the risks ⁓ and you say listen During the day I will go down to the shelter, during the night we will stay in a covered place in our apartment, which is crazy when you think about it. But that's what we do. That's what we actually do. There is ⁓ a of endurance when you think about this, you know, ⁓ risk But I'm just to conclude, I just want to say for me, the state of Israel gives a sense of control. I'm controlling. The army is mine. The country is mine. So I have a sense of control. I'm scared. I'm not safe. But still, I have this... And I think it's very important for endurance as community, But for resilience, for me, it's all about this very intimate self, individualistic process inside you that makes you stronger, make you, it's not about physical strength, it's about understanding your place in history. and in society. ⁓ Oliver Spike Joseph: maybe the chidush, like the new learning for me that ⁓ in your perspective that we have to have sense of spiritual emotional comfort comes from the outside in order to then go on to the personal exfoliation, the personal... a process to permit aspect of endurance. I think about that, I mean, this is historic now, like we are two and half years past October 7th, but I think from a European perspective, and I'm in the UK and I work with lots of European students across Europe, so I have that voice in my head as well, I think when... The security situation was on October 7th and Israel was attacked and thousands of people were killed including at Nova, a ⁓ festival which I personally visit but went a very similar desert festival as I'm sure you have as well in your own life. You know, the imagination of being exposed in that way the middle of the very flat, very desolate desert is just unthinkable. I think if we're talking about resilience the first step towards resilience, perhaps before you get to the aspect of resilience is creating a sense of safety. As many people have said ⁓ the last couple of years, we're still on October 8th. I don't know how you relate to that kind of version reality, but the... The sense of security that the state of Israel has created both for Israelis inside the state of Israel, but also for Jews across the world is somehow that we have a place that's safe. But I also think that in the broader sense in the family of nations, those people who live in Hungary or France or Germany or the UK or any other place across also have some kind of sense. protection inside the countries they live in, a, let's in a European context. I think that's somewhat evaporated, certainly in the UK and I think in many parts of Europe in recent times. That's not to say that many of us don't have strong feelings about what's going on Israel, the rights and the wrongs and the of war response to October 7th, all of the above. There is a myriad version of what it is be in relation with Israel and the Jewish people. But the sense ⁓ protection, know, this week, four ambulances were blown up outside a synagogue very close to my house in And in a context, you know, every other week at the moment, there's some near miss or some very gruesome attack that's happening Amsterdam, in London, in other parts of Europe. Our sense of security has eroded and then our capacity to be resilient at that time, if that's an internal journey, is somehow made more difficult because we are dealing with a very immediate response and endurance, if we accept your ⁓ Yair Eldan: can understand that. I I imagine that feeling that of of not controlling the could every aspect of your life. when I go back to ⁓ October 7th and the months thinking about resilience, if you resilient, you have to actually ⁓ understand what to you in October 7th. have to understand, you have to feel the defeat in a very deep way. And if you don't feel it, you can't, you know, you're not there. If you're not there, you're not resilient. If you're not resilient, i.e. you can't actually correct things and, you know, make things... back into their order and take responsibility. mean, so aspects of self-awareness, ⁓ and said for me, that's what religion is all about for me. I expect people who are religious to be more self-aware, more ⁓ self-conscious what's going on. And actually when I see what's going on in Israel these days, ⁓ where... Religious people are actually doing the opposite. They don't accept of the consequences and they don't reflect on history They are just, in this vengeance, ⁓ journey. ⁓ And that's, for me, that's disappointing. have admit. ⁓ But the whole, I I'm saying that resilience is connected to, you know, a lot of other personal processes we go through. Oliver Spike Joseph: So I'm gonna introduce a couple of texts, just throw into the mix I have lots of questions about this aspect of resilience. The terminology that I might turn to is like, are the secrets of Jewish survival? How have we got to today? I read an interesting... article written by Daniel Schwartz from George Washington University and he's talking about Yosef Chaim Yerushalmi who wrote a book called Zahor that's well read on the Jewish bookshelf. And he's talking about exile from Spain in 1492 where thousands upon thousands of Jews were thrown out of Spain in the medieval period and many of them were killed, many of got on boats, many of them stayed secret Jews inside Spain and Portugal. And he, the book that he's analyzing is by Solomon Ibn Verga, who apparently spoke to some of these exiles. And these exiles are on a boat and a plague breaks out and they get off the boat onto an island. And there's this like interesting passage which really could be taken from anywhere. I just read it out loud briefly. Lord the universe. "Although you are doing much to make me abandon my religion, I know for certain that despite the heavenly hosts, a Jew I am, a Jew I will remain, and nothing you have bought or will yet bring me will help you." It's like this who's on a desert island with some kind of lurgy, his wife has died, his two sons have died, like he's in this moment of exceptional spiritual agony. And he's almost challenging God here to say, I'm gonna remain Jewish. It feels appropriate because we're in the festival of Passover coming up like next week. We're in the festival of our Jewish identity, kind of Jewish identity framing where we become the people who endure slavery. endure exile cross the sea, endure the desert, somehow come out the other side. And this text speaks to these moments of spiritual agony, which... I have to say that before October 7th, I don't think I understood in quite the same way in a personal context. We've been through a lot in our family in terms of bereavement, in terms of grief, and in terms of lot of sadness. But there's something about that existential doubt and the sense of will I survive, will we survive that only came into focus in my life, you know, age 40, whatever, 41. after October 7th, this that my own journey connects with all of these other people who have come a significant and profound hardship. And I think that somewhere in there, some of these stories of spiritual resilience and spiritual questioning that come from different layers of our tradition have helped me. And... having known those traditions even before October 7th, that also helped me in a retrospective way that I'd learned some of this material. I was like, now this makes sense what it is to be an angsty people. Yair what do you make of this first text? Yair Eldan: Hmm. Listen, I tried to refer to the words of this person who lost his family, and to interpret as simple ⁓ faith. I not ⁓ I read them in way there's something about ⁓ Jewish culture, would say Jewish civilization that all about resistance. And me resistance is about, ⁓ I connected what kept us as Jews, ⁓ to critical ⁓ mean to be thinking, not to accept authority in simple way to ⁓ to ⁓ analyze, to think about life, about laws, about So I read his resistance as something Jewish. Having said that, I'm just saying critical thinking and resilience are not the same. me, critical thinking is the intellectual aspect of what kept us as Jews. And resilience is something different. It's broader. It's more connected to, I accept every religious person, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, ⁓ religious person to towards resilience, to be in terms of this self-awareness. There's an emotional aspect in resilience that doesn't exist in the critical thinking which is more Jewish in my Oliver Spike Joseph: Yair, you need to explain what you mean by critical thinking in this context? is critical thinking, why are you bringing the question of critical thinking into this conversation? Yair Eldan: Because first of all, ⁓ me, a critical thinking, that is ⁓ of the features of Jewish life and of the things that I think preserved Jewish life because... There is kind of being outside reality, looking at reality, analyzing reality, asking questions about reality, about every aspect of it. ⁓ you the text of this Jew who is, in a way, ⁓ resisting by saying he will continue to be Jewish. He will Jewish. I mean, for me, there is no meaning of that. I'm Jewish because I was just born Jewish, and that's it. I had no question about it. And that's my in a way, or not software, it's my hardware in a way. It's my hardware. ⁓ Oliver Spike Joseph: But there's a way here, as you described it, by putting a stake in the ground and saying, this is me and this is who I will continue to be. And whatever you do, F you, I will be. And that is, for me, that's the beginning of resilience. For me, that's perhaps the opening stance, is that sense of, we say in the Torah, 'am kashay oref', like, Yair Eldan: Exactly! Listen! Mm-hmm. Oliver Spike Joseph: stiff-willed people or the stiff-necked people. That's into our DNA in some of our original stories of travail and ⁓ traveling desert that we are a stiff-necked people, ⁓ stubborn they come. there's something about the very essence of Jewish ⁓ identity, which stubbornness. I'm... This guy on the desert island who's lost everything. I'm gonna find the one thing that I can control, that I can stick to and hold onto that. the opposite of the people who have lost everything. Gone. Yair Eldan: I mean, I just want to differentiate. ⁓ Sorry. I I want to differentiate it and just to say that I find the 'Tzidduk Ha'Din' as a secular person, find it, you know, saying, 'Baruch Dayan Ha'Emet' praising God after someone dies. find it... Baruch Dayan Ahemet, you know, that... Oliver Spike Joseph: So translate that for us. Baruch Dayan Emet. Blessed. Yair Eldan: God who has actually ⁓ doing a truth through judgment, ⁓ Saying that God is right in all his righteous and right in all his ways, including, you know, my ⁓ relative And I to admit as a secular person, I feel terrible when I hear it. ⁓ And I these, ⁓ sayings a person is dead ⁓ or light of suffering. I hate these religious, speaking about the next as if they know ⁓ something about it in very, I mean, I... Having faith in the world that is after our world is fine. mean, of course, everybody has his own faith. But talking about it in a very positive way, very religious, if it's a fact, that's direction that hate that religion took, and Judaism specifically. Oliver Spike Joseph: Yeah, so practice you're talking about just for listeners who might not be accustomed to it, when somebody dies or when you hear bad news, you say, Baruch Ata Adonai Eloheinu Melech Ha'Olam, Baruch Dayan Ha'Emet that you say, blessed is God, rule of the universe, which is the regular clause for a blessing. And then afterwards you say, Dayan the one, the judge, the true judge, the true judge. So I relate to that, but then I... my perspective is clearly inverse because there's nothing wrong with having a sense that the way to respond to desperation is to find comfort. The 'Dayan Ha'Emet' is somehow returning our own sense of desperation to a version that is, there's God in the world, that God is much greater than anything we could possibly ever ⁓ understand, God in essence is. a God of all the generations, of all time, of all people. And that we return ourselves to that. And that's ultimately understanding of the mourning process. When we say Kaddish, the mourner's prayer, 'Yitgadal V'Yitkadash' God is ⁓ be made great and to be made holy. We're returning ourselves from a sense of desperation to a sense of connection. And I also, can agree, I might disagree on that fundamental point, but I can agree in a frustration that if anybody would ever rationalize. any death and certainly tragic death. That's me, you know, we can agree on that progressive stance. My understanding of God is a God who is, the God that we turn to is the essence of everything that's unknown. The God that we turn to, we turn to a God, Baruch Ata Adonai, that God is the unknown. somehow returning to that aspect of not knowing, that's the comfort. And I think sometimes in more fundamentalist circles, the is, no, no, it's fine because they're going to a better place. I think clumsy because I don't think any of the attempts to understand what happens to us ⁓ after we are by their very nature attempts and not supposed to be people who've been there and come back or... understand anything what actually happens to us. Yair Eldan: You know, thank you Oliver. It's interesting to hear your view on God. It's not the first time you talk about it, know, ⁓ start to understand your point of view. But I I mean... in a way, version of the blessings, the literally version of the blessings, pointing to God as if he is present, it's a present version of Hebrew, is actually... proving my point when you think about it because there is a lot of effort 2000 years ago to make God present in our lives, Jewish life, when you bless, ⁓ the blessing, in the prayer. So you have God during the day, you actually, try, He's not there. You can't reach ⁓ Him. but you make a deep effort to actually make him present in your life. What does that mean? It means that you understand in a very deep way that God is not present. But today, I think there is something crazy about the fact that religious people talk about God as an ontological fact, as something that is in the world. think that's a diversion of what happened 2,000 years ago. And in a way, as a secular person, whatever works for a person dealing with this crazy reality, crazy world ⁓ and uncertainty. But I think I have degrees ⁓ of coping ⁓ or I do have... I, I, scale, a scale of coping. There is very superficial coping, very simple coping, and there are, uh, attitudes of coping that are in a higher level. That's what I'm aiming to. And resilience is one of them. Oliver Spike Joseph: Right. So we talk in like the psychology of Maslow's hierarchy, you have the basic level need, of human need, and then at the top of the pyramid is ⁓ spiritual spirituality or connection. there's something here about where we've got to on the question of resilience, which is that it's high level. You to have taken care of some of your more basic needs. in an insurance setting in order to get to the aspect of resilience, which I think is interesting. I wanna turn to one last piece of text, Gemarra because it bothered us both. It's an extract from Makkot which is from the Babylonian Talmud, also about 2000 years ago, and it's about some rabbis, Aliyat Ha'Regal, they're going up to Jerusalem, but they're going not to Jerusalem to the Temple, but to the ruins of the Temple. And they arrive in the temple. and they see its ruin, see it's broken into pieces, and they see a fox emerge from the Holy of Holies. So if you can picture the temple, has an outer wall, it has an inner wall, and then at the very, very center of the temple is the Holy of Holies where historically the high priest would go in, I think, once a year only to offer sacrifices. He was... only allowed their once a year and they would tie a cord to his leg to drag him out lest the power of the holy of holies be so strong that he would be pulled out (dead!). I actually learnt some temple ritual with Yair back in our Talmud class more more than 10 years ago. This special and holy place there is a fox running around in it. And all of the rabbis that are with Rabbi Akiva cry, they're weeping, and Rabbi Akiva laughs. Metzachek', it's an interesting kind of loaded terminology of 'Tzchok', laughing which come back from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Sara's laughing ⁓ before she gives birth Isaac. I just find it fascinating that you can have like such travesty, such tragedy and laughing. Rabbi Akiva, like one of the core rabbis of the Talmudic tradition, laughing. Yair Eldan: you Oliver Spike Joseph: speaks very much to something of Jewish life. I don't know in this context whether it's ⁓ resilience, but certainly this text has brought us along the journey of resilience in to an understanding that sometimes in our greatest tragedy, one of the core parts is to learn how to laugh and to see kind of, I think you said this before we came on, like the broad expanse that then allows us perhaps to see both a glimmer of hope and a glimmer of humor even in the ruins of the temple. do you read this year here? Yair Eldan: I wonder why do you think he laughs? Because I understood his laughing. I not sure. You can say he's laughing because, ⁓ know, everybody, mean, the commentary says he's laughing. Why? Because he says, he says because if prophecy of destruction was actually fulfilled... So we have to understand that also the prophecy of construction and ⁓ ⁓ be fulfilled as well. So he's laughing. Humor great and it appears a lot in Israel, as you said. But also, mean, in humor and I mean... Oliver Spike Joseph: rebuilding. Yair Eldan: Concluding my kids say it's 'Chofeir', You know I'm digging into your mind, but I'm sorry I mean I will say that last one last time humor could be superficial as well Which is great, and you laugh, and it's great for the moment And wonderful, but humor could be also very you know, deep and to tell you something about and about life. And so not sure about what Rabbi Akiva is doing here. ⁓ Is superficial or ⁓ more And it seems to me that you feel it's very deep because, you know, it turns to a broader perspective. That's what you're saying. Oliver Spike Joseph: I think so. Listen, rabbis always want to make text more frum, 'religious' that's ⁓ good He's laughing because he doesn't just see the destruction, but he sees the ultimate rebuilding of Jerusalem, which is the fablised kind of version of when the Messiah comes in the Jewish imagination, the temple will be rebuilt. So ⁓ he forward 2000 plus years and says, you know, one day this will be Yair Eldan: Ha ha ha ha ha! You Oliver Spike Joseph: the temple again. But think the, you know, my more real version is sometimes we can do is laugh. Like the more human reaction is sometimes all we can do is laugh. This would have been a moment of profound anguish and strife for people that had exactly revolved their whole life and existence around temple. And here they see the temple desecrated ⁓ and and in ruin. I think I can hold that this might be endurance, that moment of laughing, but I think it's the stories, because this is text ultimately, we're reading this as text, it's the stories which permit us to find those aspects of resilience in order to get through. when people are making videos in bomb shelters at the moment and a lot of very silly, frivolous of humor that goes around on WhatsApp groups and in the Jewish community at time, think that tells us we can it, tells us we can endure and tells us we can get through the other side and tells us not to take even the toughest parts of our own life too seriously. share a final word on? ⁓ on where this leaves you Yair Eldan: I have this connected thought, but I will conclude with it. I I can see that we talked about humor. I don't know if you know Shachar Cohen. Shachar Cohen is a comedian. has these short videos ⁓ Instagram about Israel. mean, he all sorts of Israeli characters. And I think that's, you know, it's and it's great. This kind of humor is... You know, telling you, giving you a mirror of who you are and it's very funny. But there's another kind of humor which is very, I mean, deeper in a way, more subversive, I referred to before. it. That's what my ⁓ thought. Oliver Spike Joseph: Okay. I think for me, listen, topic feels tremendously important because... ⁓ I think at this time there are lots of hearts that breaking and that's on a very like small level. You know, I said that I was ill yesterday. We were talking about being men in particular, like our whole world's fall apart when we're not feeling good. And I have to come through the other side of that. But on the other side, you know, there have been lots of lives lost during this time and lives also broken apart and There is something here that we have as a Jewish community, a secret potion. I don't think it's that secret because we're, you on a podcast talking about it a very transparent way, but there's a potion, there's a recipe for resilience. And I think sometimes in the context of ⁓ and Jewish life, sometimes it serves us to like dig down and say, is that resilience? Where does it come from? How do we find it? And to refresh it and to rejuvenate it and to use it because it's You know, as the Gemmarah (Talmud) reports, people have been using this magic recipe for lots of generations to try and find how to come out the other side and carry thank you for doing this today. As always, lovely to learn together. wanted to just offer couple of words from our feedback in. We'd love to hear from you if you have stuff to say about this podcast. Each week we're trying to read out a couple of responses to our podcast from people who have been listening along. It helps us to improve our podcast and it's just lovely to have a bit more of an interactive to how we a podcast. My cousin Constance is in London. She absolutely loved the first couple of episodes integrating Jewish texts in an open and non-judgmental discussion. It makes Jewish learning and reflection feel very accessible, which is great. also loved the images of the first podcast, I think, which was talking about ⁓ B' Barzel', the steel on steel sharpening one and other. I hopefully we're to do that Yair and I So thank you, Constance, in London. In DC, one of my Hartman colleagues we studied together at the Hartman Institute, Julie Rezmovic-Tonti. said she loved the latest podcast and was really excited about the vulnerability we were prepared to share the podcast. And she loved the Machloket to the disagreement between Yair and I So we're getting better by way of your feedbacks to send more into our feedbacking slot. There's on my links, can find ways of being in contact. That gives me time to say thank you to Oy Va Voy for our new musical intro and outro. You can listen to their single, Back to My Roots. available at all streaming platforms. We're gonna try and announce their gigs coming up also on here. Please send this podcast to somebody else. Like clips on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and send this to a friend and offer us five stars in the place that you listen to our podcast. Finally, we supporting this podcast on Patreon. So if you wanted to support ⁓ and make monthly donation to the production of this podcast, you are very welcome. you for listening to Really Jewish with Yair Eldan and Oliver Joseph. Speak to you, see you next week. Only good.