Latest / AAC Access All Areas / What if school aren't using the AAC?
Transcript
- Ruth: Hello and welcome to another episode of AAC Access All Areas in October, AAC Awareness Month. My name is Ruth and I'm a speech therapist and I'm joined by Ali: Ali and I am also a speech and language therapist. And today's question is what if the school are not using the AAC system? Ruth: Yeah, which we we just had our little quick pre record chat, didn't we? And we're saying that particularly this time of year, there's been lots of children who are maybe starting in a brand new school or moving from one classroom to another classroom. So they've got maybe a whole new support team or maybe a bit a bit of their old team, a bit of their new team. there's lots of new routines, aren't there? families are building relationships with new staff as well. There's There's a lot going on that can be enablers and barriers to AAC practice this time of year, isn't there? Ali: Yeah, and I think there are lots of different scenarios here, aren't there? And probably maybe one to start with is... just exploring the reasons for that, like why are they not engaging with it? And I would say probably the most common reason is lack of confidence, like they're just really freaked out by the whole thing because they've never seen an AAC system before. And it isn't common in our current world to have had much experience of AAC. We're hoping to change that, aren't we Ruth? That's one of our life missions. make AAC just part of regular life. But at the moment it is a relatively unseen area of communication. So I was going to say particularly in mainstream but... Also, perhaps in specialist settings, it might be a teaching Ruth: No. Ali: team's first experience of supporting a child with an AAC system. And there's a reason why the first book that I wrote was called Who's Afraid of AAC? The reason I called it that was that I was just recognising that even within speech and language therapy, there's a lot of fear around AAC. Like just the name itself is weird, like augmentative and alternative. What does that even mean? So yeah, does that feel familiar to you, Ruth? Do you find that a big reason is just people are worried and lack confidence? Ruth: Yes, certainly. And I think I take a word that you said to me once about AAC, which was about braveness. And I think there is something about there being a bit of a fear of failure or Ali: Yeah. Ruth: being seen to get it wrong. That communication Ali: in. Ruth: partners, whether you're a therapist, a parent, a a teaching assistant, a teacher, whoever you are as a communication partner, that how do I get this right? And I think there is Ali: Mm. Ruth: particularly in so much of education and in speech therapy, there is like pathways and formats and curriculums Ali: Yeah. Ruth: and all of this sort of stuff. And actually when you're teaching AAC, you generally aren't following a Right, this is week one, we work on this word, then it's week two, we work on this word. And and and Ali: Yeah. Yes. Yes. Ruth: and so I think that that kind of breadth can feel quite scary to people because Ali: Yes. Ruth: we're so held in the system normally. Ali: Yeah, yeah, it's uncharted territory, isn't it? And I suppose if we Ruth: Mm-hmm. Ali: can just acknowledge that of like, yeah, we are in uncharted territory, and we're going to explore together. And when we're in uncharted territory, we make loads of mistakes. Like, I suppose you could do a sort of like analogy with the last time you traveled somewhere new, whether it was somewhere overseas or, or a new environment or something, the first time we do that, we make loads of mistakes, because we don't know. the ropes yet. And it's exactly the same with AAC. So I try to go in with that, like we're going to make mistakes and that's good. So mistakes, I always remember seeing this in a classroom on a wall, mistakes mean that we're trying and they're good. Ruth: Yeah. Ali: And so if I'm sort Ruth: Yeah. Ali: of like demonstrating an AAC system, I will try and make use of those times where I forget where something is or I go wrong, I go into the wrong page because that's exactly what happens in real life. Like we forget where a word is, just like sometimes we can't find a word, like we're trying to think of the word for the planet that is next to Mercury. For instance, we have those moments with our spoken language, with our speech, so we also have those moments with AAC and more so because we're less practiced with it. So yeah, that's one thing that I and do I make the most of when I can't find something or when I've gone wrong? Just to normalise that as an experience so that people go into it with the expectation is fine to make mistakes and children need to see us making mistakes because how are they going to pluck up the courage to try it if it's presented as a we already have to know what we're doing? Ruth: Mm-hmm. And I think there is there is something in that, isn't there, around expectation. Expectation of what it should look like, or expectation Ali: No. Ruth: of what our legacy teaching tells us it should be like, Ali: and then. Ruth: and therefore expectation of how a child should use an AAC tool. Ali: Yeah. Ruth: and I think then we get into that territory where if it is being used, it's been used in more legacy ways where we're looking at request a behavior response or a token tap means you're listening and engaging. And I think they're the spaces where then you get, well, they don't respond to AAC. So we don't Ali: Yeah. Ruth: use that more complicated thing because they're not using these more simple things. And so I think sometimes there's that Lack of current understanding and current training, and I think it is really Ali: Yes, yes. Ruth: important to name how little training staff teams, even in the specialist school, often have access to for things like AAC, because there is so much mandatory Ali: Absolutely. Ruth: training they've got to do, there's so much curriculum, send process paperwork, all of that sort of stuff that they have to do, Ali: no. Ruth: that AAC training is very easily. forgotten or pushed to the bottom or it becomes a small part of a big culture. Ali: Yes, yes. it's and we know it's not a bolt on, is it? It's sort of like often treated Ruth: No. Ali: as a bolt on as a sort of like optional extra. And of course, we're not going to view that because AAC is Ruth: Valeu. Ali: integral to everything that we we do in our support with a child. But it's also I think increasingly as well, I try and explain it as part of multimodal communication. So I think previously I might have been like slightly too evangelical about AAC and you know there's this much cited quotation which is something like if we only model AAC for 20 minutes three times a week it will take a child 83 years to reach the language competence of a, I think it was five year old or something like that. So that comes up again and again and again. And I have used that in the Ruth: Mm-hmm. Ali: first edition of my first book, I used that. And then a couple of weeks ago, I was talking to a parent of an AAC user and we had a conversation where she absolutely hates that quotation because it really sets up parents particularly to feel like they're failing and just like the pressure Ruth: Yeah. Ali: of my God, I've got to be modeling it all the time from the moment a child wakes up to the moment, their eyes closed in the evening. And I think now I'm thinking of AAC as it's all part of multimodal communication. So it shouldn't interrupt what a child is already doing with their communication. And before we introduce an AAC system, children have got really rich multimodal communication already, whether that is their hand leading, their pointing, their looking at things they want. They're kind of like showing parents what they're interested in. know, so they've already, they might be vocalizing, they might have some spoken words or some phrases. They might be signing, they might have Makaton signs. So they've got this rich multimodal communication that we don't want to get in the way of with AAC. And sometimes when we're so focused on learning AAC, we kind of like forget to pick up on all the other ways that a child is communicating. So we might miss their facial expression or they're pointing at something. So I now sort of sell it as this is just a beautiful new tool within the multimodal communication toolkit. It's a really important one but it's just going to take its place alongside all of those other beautiful ways that a child is communicating and I hope that that is less intimidating than the you must use it all the time and yeah throughout absolutely everything. And I like the expression of light sprinkling of AAC. When I was at the Communication Matters Conference a couple of weeks ago, I really liked Becky Fry, who is a smart box speech and language therapist. She said, sprinkle it like confetti, sprinkle AAC like confetti. And I really like that analogy that we're just like offering it as a thing of beauty. you know, it may or may not land in the way that we intended. We're not too attached to that, but we offering it in a, you know, in a light delicate way. Ruth: Hmm. I I think so. I think one thing actually I saw it pop up this week. I can't remember who posted it on Instagram, but was that quote about the statistics? And I thought as well that it's really grounded in quite ableist perspective, isn't it? That we're comparing children who aren't developing typical conversation Ali: Hmm, competence, yes. Ruth: and typical language skills to a typically developing child's language patterns. Ali: Yeah. Ruth: And what we know for a lot of AAC users is actually they do have language. Ali: Yeah. Ruth: So we don't necessarily have to teach the language for some children. Some we do, some we don't. And so I think there's all sorts of problems with that as a statistic. While I can see what purpose people are trying to serve with it. and I think there's something about for schools, when they're not seeming to use AAC, coming at it from that like curious and collaborative space, trying to work Ali: no. Ruth: out What is it that's driving it? Is it is it like you say that fear factor? Is there a knowledge gap? Or is Ali: Mm. Ruth: there actually an underpinning value that you aren't placing value on this and therefore the values are misaligned between perhaps the therapist, the family, and the school? And and how do we have some conversations around that? Because I think one of the Ali: Yes. Ruth: hardest things as a therapist and also for parents is when you want and you See how much potential you're really presuming potential for an AAC user to learn that tool. And then the underpinning values of teams at the school is their pres presuming incompetence. They're presuming Ali: Yes. Ruth: that somebody lacks capacity. And I think that can be really that can be quite a tricky conversation to hold and to Ali: Yeah. Ruth: to be brave as a therapist. Ali: And even within the field of speech and language therapy, it can be really awkward, can't it? Because Ruth: Mm. Ali: I've certainly come across colleagues, you know, like other speech and language therapists who might be in that mindset of a child has to prove that they're communicating with their AAC before they'll really see that competence. And that is a legacy practice. That's partly why we're doing this podcast, to sort of try and change Ruth: Yes. Ali: that. But I think it really is so hurtful when you see that for a child that you know well. like I have had experiences as an independent therapist where I like suddenly almost have a parental perspective. not the child's parent, but because I've got to know them really well, it really hurts when other people come Ruth: Mm-hmm. Ali: along and don't presume that potential. for a child. I just really feel for parents when they constantly have that experience of their child being underestimated. It is really hideous. So yeah, that's definitely thing. And I've had that this week actually, kind of, in a really positive way. this is situation where it's a mainstream school, it's a really little village school. They've never had a child I don't think they've never had a child using AAC on an iPad before and they're very willing and they engaged with the training that I did before the child started, really showed a lot of curiosity around it. We talked about all of the things that we have done around it being part of multimodal, it's fine to make mistakes. But the first couple of times that I've been in to support this child, I've noticed that they're favouring the on-screen keyboard. So they're typing things because they find that quicker to type things and Ruth: Mm-hmm. Ali: also make phrases. So I went in this week sort of knowing that I just need to gently guide them towards that's lovely, it's lovely typing things when you can't find the word and you want to show a child that we can also type. It's lovely to use that function to search for a word and find out where it is but we don't want to be doing that all the time because that's not actually helping a child Ruth: Yeah. Ali: work out the navigation and it's not helping you work out the navigation of where do we find Ruth: Mm-hmm. Ali: something. So I had one of my like 5 a.m. ideas before the school visit of like, I know, teachers love a challenge, they love a quiz don't they? So I just like really quickly made a little challenge sheet of can you and your team find these words and I tried to make it as varied as possible so there were nouns, there were verbs, there were adjectives. and possibly some little phrases on there I can't actually remember now and took that in with me and the teacher did like, I love a quiz so I'm hoping that when I go back maybe as a team they've sort of like challenged each other maybe supported each other to just have a play on the child's AAC system and try and find out Ruth: Yeah. Ali: where those words are so they'll have to go into clothes to find sock they'll have to go into body to find foot etc. some more challenging ones on there as well. So yeah, they have the best intentions is where I was trying to go with that. It is not them going, I'm not interested or it's too hard, I'm not even gonna try. It was very understandable. I really want to make this work. I feel safe in this area in the on-screen keyboard. I feel less safe in the rest of the symbol package. So how can we support them to just build that sense of safety in using the rest of the iPad? And the other way, sorry, I know I am info dumping now, Ruth, I am going to stop in a minute. Ruth: Great. Ali: The other way that I thought I really needed to do, needed to sort of like take a member of staff with me this week is to try and see that child in a quiet environment with a TA coming out because the last couple of times I've been in, we've just been sort of like accessing the free flow classroom and outside. And I think sometimes we don't see a child's real communication potential in those busy environments because they're so busy exploring. And so it's like the school read my mind. I arrived and they said, we've got the library space for you today. And so we used that space. The TA came with me. my God, we had the most beautiful session with this child just engaging, using like macotons signs, copies. our, like we were using the gesture of round and round when he was playing with a little like rocket launch pad and he copied my sign for that. It was beautiful. And then I had this expandable ball and he was making it go big and small and big and small. And I was doing that gesture and he was looking at the AAC. At one point the TA took over from me so she was modelling on the AAC whilst I was doing the gesture and he was looking beautiful. at the AAC. And then also we heard we were playing with a rocket, we heard this real intonation of it, he was doing the countdown so it was like... I can't do it backwards. I can't do that. But I recognised in the moment that he was doing like the countdown. And so we just had this beautiful experience of being able to see all of his multimodal communication, his engagement with the AAC in a quiet environment. We could also have a little chat about that. So it was just a space to sort of like try and take that TA on that journey in spite that TA and I fingers crossed I feel like I feel like we did that at least she did say my goodness that was lovely and maybe I need to make time to sort of like have a little bit of that during the week as well. Right over, Ruth's Ruth: Mm. Yeah. Ali: turn. Ruth: no, I think it's it's lovely and I think people enjoy listening to those real life experiences that we bring to this where we're doing this. And actually it was just taking me to a conversation I was having, I was doing some supervision with another speech therapist earlier about when, how, do we do therapy with AAC, what could that look like? And I was talking about that the we have a concept, don't be in therapy, of a pull-out therapy where you pull a child out of their setting and you do that, and then a push in where you push yourself into the setting and you're delivering therapy in that way. And I think with AAC there can be that real need for flexibility with that, can't there? Because if you push in Ali: Mmm. Ruth: and everything in the environment's working really nicely, you get multiple people being able to just tune in a bit Ali: Yes. Ruth: to what you're doing, to watching you, to listening, to having those collaborative conversations about what did you just press There, where did you find that word? those kinds of conversations Ali: Thank you. Ruth: that they wouldn't get if you just pull them out, Ali: Yeah. Ruth: and recognizing that there are some times, aren't there, where if you pull a child out, yes, the environment might be optimal, but if those communication partners aren't able to join you too, you can have a wonderful Ali: Mmm. Mmm. Ruth: session, and that can be really great. But so much of the work we're doing, and again, I was just writing a report for a child thinking about this. So much of the work we do with AAC taking that sort of statistic around numbers of hours of input. i is thinking about how we upskill all the communication partners across home and school and that includes siblings and everybody, isn't it? That the the everybody's skills and knowledge and confidence to be a good communication partner is such an important part of the work that we do. And so when we see people not engaging in that communication partner stuff, it is kind of getting curious. And it sounds like you did a really lovely job of working collaboratively with that team, bringing sort of some curiosity and and some compassion to maybe their sense of safety in that space of the keyboard. Because I think it's very easy, isn't it, sometimes to like you say, kind of sit with the frustration of seeing that, thinking that's not what we want to do, but to be able to Ali: Yes, yes. Ruth: shift that into okay, so how do we actually go in collaboratively, go in compassionately and creatively to bring something that brings the fun to that. love Ali: Yes, yeah, yeah. Ruth: the idea of the quiz. I think that's great. Ali: And I think the other thing is sort of like, so in my supervision with therapists is if they are having this experience where nobody in that setting is engaging with the AAC and they're feeling like they're just on their own with it, I'll often encourage them to think of, who in that team do you get a sense they've got the most curiosity? Who might be your ally in that team? Ruth: Mm-hmm. Ali: And more often than not, can because we just get a sixth sense for who is sort of like curious already and so that can be a real way in like okay first work with that person because if you've got an ally if their curiosity is piqued if they've just got a little doubt as to the standard narrative about this child. If there's just that little bit of doubt, maybe this child is understanding quite a lot of language. Maybe this child does have the potential to learn language through an AAC system. That person is often a good person to start with. And then another Ruth: Yeah. Ali: thing is thinking about how can we inspire these people? Like these people have gone into teaching or being a TA because they want to engage with children and have those really lovely experiences together. So how can we reconnect them with that? You know, they are probably under a lot of pressure. They're dealing with a really difficult system. like the schools are not easy places for anybody like adults or children. There's so many expectations on schools, know, not least from Ofsted inspections or the curriculum or whatever. So how can we reconnect them with the joy of just being with a child and having an interaction with a child and having that moment of I get you, you get me, isn't that absolutely gorgeous that we can just be here together? And I do wonder sometimes we kind of have to create the optimal space for that, as in like fewer distractions and, you know, just time to be. Because I think some TAs are just like totally run off their feet. They've got so many different things to do. So just giving them a little space. So sometimes Ruth: Mm-hmm. Ali: I will say, just relax here. So today, all I want you to do is notice, like notice what a child Ruth: Yeah. Ali: is doing with their communication. And that's all I'm asking you to do today. So that might Ruth: Mm. Ali: be like a first step. If we feel as though we're dealing with like a bit of jadedness and burnt outness, which is unfortunately Ruth: Mm-hmm. Ali: a really common scenario. Ruth: Yeah, yeah, certainly. It's in fact I think I mentioned it on the previous episode, but I've just so I've written and just recorded a talk for the Attention Autism Summit that I think is happening in November. and I've written a piece called It Depends. Like how do we decide on communication support strategies for autistic children? and it's really interesting because I have had some really Interesting conversations with a lady called Lorraine who is one of the leads for attention autism about some of the the the problematic practice that I see around the legacy approach of attention autism and and how it's Ali: Mm-hmm. Ruth: been delivered and very compliance based and you know some really interesting things in conversations with her. But what was interesting when I was writing this presentation about it depends Was that I said, if I could give anyone advice in terms of communication and autistic Ali: you Ruth: children, it is having permission to have time to connect with them. And particularly this time of year where you might be getting to know new children, is Ali: next. Ruth: just noticing what where is their attention? What are they looking at? What does their attention Ali: Yeah. Ruth: look like? What does their communication look like? What are those things that you might notice? And I think there is everything is so fast. all the time and it is a real privilege as a therapist, isn't it, to be able to come in and be alongside a child, just that child so often, Ali: Hmm. Ruth: where you're just tuned into them. And so I think if you can find that five minutes for a child each day, just to notice and connect. You don't Ali: Thank Ruth: have to lead them to anything, you don't have to do anything, but just be alongside them. Do get that little insight into what is irresistible to them, what is Bringing them joy. What do you notice about the way that they like to do things? And a really lovely example I had of this this week was in a session on Wednesday with a young person who was in a big hall and they were doing like a movement sensory circuit kind of situation, and they were sat in a Bolivo. It's like a sort of a yellow cuppy bucket thing that spins, or you can you can do all sorts with them, they're fabulous Ali: Thank Ruth: pieces of kit. and They sat in it, spun around a bit, and then they laid back, so their bottom was cooked in this thing, and their knees were tucked over the top, and they were looking at the ceiling, and the ceiling in the hall was these squares of polystyrene tiles, right? And I was like, I know that they like visual input, their visual sensory system is quite interesting to note and to tune into. And so I had their phasing vocal chat on grid, but it's the high contrast one because of this visual thing Ali: Thank Ruth: that we're noticing. And I just went to the color the shapes page and I was like, I can see squares and modeled C squares. And this child looked at the biggest beam on their space that I had connected with what Ali: and Ruth: they were noticing. And Ali: you Ruth: so we didn't do loads and loads of AAC modeling, and I'm with them for an hour, but that one powerful piece where I was just noticing, that was just a couple of minutes, and that could have been me as Ali: Bye. Ruth: a speech therapist, that could have been a TA. Ali: Yeah. Ruth: It could have been a teacher. But the the connection we got, and you know what I'm thinking is actually that might even be my glimmer this week. But I had got some other things I was thinking about, but that might be my one, like and I'm there. But I just Ali: What I going to say, that sounds like a pretty good limo. Ruth: think it's it's reminding ourselves, isn't it? That there is generally if people aren't there isn't an uptake of AAC, there is usually a barrier there that we just need to be curious about. Ali: Yeah. Ruth: What's driving that? And there are some barriers that are probably easier to overcome when Ali: Yeah. Ruth: we are thinking about is it a training need, is it a confidence? And some that might be a bit trickier, like that kind of legacy values Ali: Mm. Ruth: and perception of an AAC user having to prove they have potential Ali: No. Ruth: before they're presumed to have potential. And so and they're ones that, you know, probably require a bit more curious conversation, a bit more Ali: Yeah. Ruth: kind of training and and and also sometimes holding on to the fact that we can't always change everyone's mind and we might be there just to plant a seed that starts to grow or lob a stone into the ocean that's going to create a little ribble ripple. But I think Ali: Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ruth: and sometimes we have to sit with that discomfort, don't we? All look to our allies, whether that's parents, whether that is another's colleague. Ali: Yes, yes, definitely. yeah, yeah, definitely. That sense of community is so important, isn't it? Because I sent you a message this week of like I was preparing for a visit that I was anticipating was going to be quite challenging in terms of legacy practice. And just knowing that there's somebody else out there that gets it is really helpful for me when I'm having a day like that. Yeah, so. Yeah, my glimmer is related to what we talked about with that session. And I'll just give you a bit of context that the week before this school, I think their SENCO is currently off. And so they'd had a temporary SENCO come in. I don't know how brief, I don't know any of the like proper detail of it, how briefly this SENCO observed this child, but basically the SENCO came out and said to the parent that they weren't engaging, they weren't engaging with their AAC and all of this rude. deficit based stuff and the parent messaged me saying I've had a real wobble today because of this which then really upset me because you know that kind of thing does really upset me. And so we had a bit of a conversation about, know, we can't force engagement. We have to, you know, stay true to prioritizing connection first. had a bit of a conversation about attention autism and, you know, like certs and Ruth: Mm-hmm. Ali: whatnot. Anyway, and I could just imagine how unsettling that visit was around this team who were doing their best and probably not meaning to but a professional going in with that sort of like deficit-based thinking, if they haven't examined that, they can potentially like really derail everybody. And yeah, so there was a bit of frustration for me of like I'd worked really hard to get this team like looking at this child through a neuroaffirming lens. So it was just really special to go in and have a really lovely session at the end of the session. child who that person had said they're not engaging with their AAC at all went to their VOCO chat and because they didn't want to finish and they said something is wrong and that was just so lovely because then I could model I don't want to because that was the next thing on that page that could pop up and then we had a bit of a conversation about what was coming up so it was nearly snack time and this child's parent was coming in their dad was coming in and so I could model daddy daddy's gonna come in and instantly as soon as I said daddy he was like dropped the toys over towards the door like right got it that's that's what's coming up next I'm fine with that so it was also a lovely little glimmer of the power of AAC to protest with Ruth: Mm-hmm. Ali: something's wrong and also the power of AAC to just give that a little bit of context and explanation of like, so what is happening right now and allowed that child to understand. I know this has been fun, but something else fun is about to happen as well. So yeah, I think that was my glimmer of the week. Ruth: That is such a such a lovely glimmer. And it especially when it offsets then some of those challenges, doesn't it? And I think Ali: Thank Ruth: legacy stuff is so, you know, like out-of-date training, like lack of up-to-date understanding of medical model versus social model, can be really quite harmful to children's journeys when if as a therapist and we're working with parents and teachers and we're all on the same page, and then you get somebody coming in, offering advice that that doesn't fit our story of that child Ali: Hmm. Ruth: is is really tricky. But my particular glimmer, other than the squares, because that was a lovely moment, but Ali: Good. Ruth: I had another one that I was thinking about was a young person I've been working with quite for quite a long time who is a massive multimodal communicator. They have a grid but they sign, they have some vocalizing, they are so like they babble lots of noises. Ali: Right. Ruth: But this week we were watching on my iPad we were watching little YouTube clips. They really love slapstick minions, that humour, Madagascar, Ali: you Ruth: that kind of thing. And we were watching something and it was the first time ever, and I've been working with them for probably three years now, they asked me to put something on their grid because we were watching this thing, this video, Ali: And. Ruth: and they wanted to check. that it was I think it was SpongeBob SquarePants that SpongeBob was in there. So they're on the adult to teen Supercore, Ali: you Ruth: which has got like a leisure folder instead of play. And in Leisure Ali: Hmm. Ruth: and TV on their phrase list, SpongeBob was there. And I was like, this is so cool. Like this is so cool that you don't have editing skills, but that you do have the kind of capacity to communicate when a word isn't there. Ali: Yeah. Ruth: So I thought, that's my doorbell. I thought that that was brilliant. That was just such Ali: Yes. Ruth: a lovely glimmer for me of showing engagement Ali: in. Ruth: in AAC and some, I guess sort of just like, yeah, just that ongoing development. I think often we can question Ali: Yes. Ruth: ourselves like, should I still be doing this work this regularly Ali: Yeah. Ruth: with a child? Like what's the right or the wrong thing? and so actually to get that ongoing engagement is really quite special. Ali: Yeah, Ruth: Quite lovely. Ali: yeah, yeah, lovely. I love it. Right, we should probably wrap up, shouldn't we? We've had quite a... Ruth: Yeah. Ali: L'Equatius, that's my word for the day. I don't know where that came from. A talkie talkie. Ruth: I don't know what it means. I'm gonna have to go I'm gonna have to go and Google that. That's great. Not only are we gonna find out what was at the door with the doorbell, I will go and Google Loquacious. I'm now wondering how I even Ali: laughter Ruth: spell it. Is it L E Q U A? That's it. Ali: L-O, I think, L-O-Q-U should get you there. There can't be many words starting Ruth: And then Ali: with L-O-Q-U either, can there? That could be little challenge. How many words Ruth: L O to you. yeah, okay. Well go and check that one out. Ali: do start with L-O-Q-U? Ruth: Yeah. I love it. We're in quiz quiz mode. Ali: you Ruth: so yeah, I will I'm actually gonna go and find that out now so I know what you're what know what you were talking about. so it has been so lovely and we are recording again soon, aren't we? And it's October Ali: Yes. Ruth: half term and hopefully after half term we're gonna have a few guests come to join us, which will be really exciting. Ali: Yes, thanks Ruth, it's always a pleasure. Ruth: Thanks, Ali. Bye.