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Music For Sale: Why Artists Sell Their Catalogs · Pop Culture Junkie®

• 0:00
  ♪ Entertain me, entertain me right now ♪
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  - Hello and welcome to the Pop Culture Junkie podcast.
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  I'm Olivia together in spirit,
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  if not in the same room with my fellow Junkie.
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  - Shauna.
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  - And we are here for another kickass episode
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  of the Pop Culture Junkie podcast, Shauna.
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  How the hell are we?
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  - So I have two updates from last week's podcast
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  for everybody who listened,
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  which is obviously like millions of people.
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  - So many.
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  - The first one is a pop culture related update,
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  and that is that we just found out
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  as of the time that we're recording today,
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  who Richard and Susan five will be about,
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  'cause when we recorded our episode, we didn't know.
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  Richard and Susan five will be about
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  Francesca and Michaela.
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  Yay, Lesbian, so let's go Lesbian.
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  - Bisexual.
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  - At least one of them.
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  - You're right. - You're right.
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  I was just quoting, oh God, what's that show?
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  Where he's on the street and he gets all of the Lesbians
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  and there he goes, come on, let's go Lesbians
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  and they all jog together.
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  Anyway.
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  - Let's go Lesbians.
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  - Yeah. - Let's go Lesbians.
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  Okay.
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  - My number two update, I mentioned last episode
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  that I was thinking about getting cats.
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  Well, I was thinking about getting a cat
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  because my cat was lonely.
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  We got cats.
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  We got two cats. - Yeah.
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  - Very cute cats.
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  - They are very cute.
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  You know how I said that toast was lonely?
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  - Yeah, no, she was fine.
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  (laughing)
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  She wants nothing to do with these kittens.
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  She wants zero to do with them.
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  They showed up and she was like,
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  I'm sorry, what the fuck are those?
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  I'm sorry, what?
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  Who are though?
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  Why?
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  And I was like, look what I got you.
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  Little kittens for you to be motherly and take care of
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  and she was like, fuck them kids.
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  I want to be the only, yeah, like what?
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  - Absolutely not.
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  She said, I thought we were a,
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  a drink.
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  We were a triple income, no kids.
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  - Yeah.
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  - Yeah.
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  - Yeah, she's like, you finally got rid of that dog,
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  Rest in Peace, Buffy.
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  Rest in Peace.
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  And then you show up with these, what the fuck?
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  So she does not want anything to do with my kittens,
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  but they are very cute.
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  Their names are Obsidian and Pewter.
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  And my house is even more allergic to...
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  - Yeah, I know it was.
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  - Literally, I'm sure.
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  - Said that she got the cats and I was like,
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  well, now I truly can never enter
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  the force, the cat force field.
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  I do need to know how we arrived at Pewter.
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  I feel like Obsidian really checks out for you
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  as a human being, but I mean, so does Pewter.
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  But like, how did we get there?
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  - Oh, there was many a debate between me and my husband.
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  I wanted to name the black cat Elvira.
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  And he wanted to name the gray cat Ash.
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  But I thought Ash was a little too on the nose
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  for a gray cat, I don't know.
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  - Okay.
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  - And then I was like, okay, well, you can name him Ash
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  if I can name her Elvira.
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  And he was not going for the Elvira.
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  - He was not.
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  And so I was like, okay, Mortisha.
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  And I was naming, I was like,
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  fine, then can I name her like Lucifer?
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  Or like the Aselbub, Asmodius?
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  And he's like, you're going to hell already.
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  Don't make it.
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  We can't name our kittens something too evil.
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  And so we almost named them Smoke and Stack
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  after-- - That's cute.
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  - From sinners, the twins from sinners.
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  But then we were like, I don't know if we want to
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  name our cat Stack.
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  So then we went with that stack on Stack.
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  - Yes, stacks on stacks on stacks.
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  So we went with Obsidian.
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  And then we were like, okay, well,
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  Pewter and Obsidian, they're both kind of like Minerals,
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  Rocks.
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  - Okay.
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  - So that is how they came to be.
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  - We were coming up with a theme.
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  - Okay.
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  - I like it.
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  - I like it.
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  - Thank you.
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  - And then there's just Toast.
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  - And then there's Toast.
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  - Who looks like burnt Toast.
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  You guys are really into color naming.
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  - Yeah.
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  - Really.
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  - I don't know why.
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  - Yeah.
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  - We really are.
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  I was thinking like breakfast.
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  - Speaking of cat's name, BluSupor.
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  Michelle is a cat named BluSupor.
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  (laughing)
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  So that's on for you now.
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  - I love that.
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  - And it's a black cat.
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  So you know, it makes sense why you both are my best friends.
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  - That's what makes sense.
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  - That's so much.
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  Have they met yet?
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  Because for our listeners, if you don't know this,
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  like if you have an existing cat
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  and then you bring another cat
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  and it's quite like Lord of the Flies and that.
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  - Do.
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  - And that helps for a little bit.
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  - It's been bonkers in here.
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  Like we have been watching nonstop YouTube videos.
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  Like this guy named the cat whisperer I wanna say.
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  How to introduce your new cats here existing cats.
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  And it's a lot about scent swapping.
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  - Yes.
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  - So we put the kittens in the bathroom
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  for the first week with like a litter box and bed and toys
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  and then close the door.
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  And then toast had kind of free reign of the house.
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  And then we would bring the kittens out
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  and put toast in the bathroom and like swap
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  or like wipe something on toasts, scent glands
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  and give it to the kittens and vice versa.
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  And then eventually it gets to like
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  seeing each other through a crack in the door
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  and then they get to see each other.
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  Like they get to all eat at the same time.
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  So it's like gradual steps.
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  Toast is doing a lot of hissing and growling is still.
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  We got a full, we got a baby gate to put in one of the doors
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  which we thought was smart but cats can jump.
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  (laughing)
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  So the baby gate's not doing shit.
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  - Okay.
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  It's just going for like UFC on these kittens.
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  - Oh, it's what's going on.
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  - We're afraid that she's going to.
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  - Okay.
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  - Toast is kind of a wimp with these kittens.
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  Like yeah, that's what I'm thinking.
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  - Yeah, are you making it like bigger in your mind?
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  - I think Andrew's making it bigger than his mind.
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  I part of me wants to just let them fucking go at it.
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  - Yeah.
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  - You don't want to just do it.
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  He's going out of town in a couple weeks
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  and if these cats aren't, you know,
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  cohabitating by that point,
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  we're still a thing that one at a time
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  put one in this room and that room closes the door
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  and that when he's at a town, it's free for all.
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  It's gonna be a free for all in here.
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  The fur is gonna be flying.
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  Screw it.
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  I'm going for it.
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  I don't care.
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  It does cat scratching my face in the middle of the night.
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  I just, I'm sick of it.
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  I'm sick of this cat rotation system
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  that we have at our house right now.
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  So yeah, I think they'll figure it out, you know?
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  I think like a couple of weeks now, if I put the process.
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  - It's been like two weeks.
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  So I mean, I'm getting a little impatient
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  and I know it takes a lot of time, but like,
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  I don't know.
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  I think we'll get there.
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  I think we will get there.
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  - That's also. - Toast just like her space.
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  I mean, she's one of us is gonna have to get there.
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  We have all the floor to ceiling.
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  You know those like door net things
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  that you can put like houses and like floor to have.
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  We have one in Andrew's office now.
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  Like a door to ceiling net.
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  - No, wow.
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  - We can leave his bedroom door open
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  and have like the kittens in his office
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  and then toast on the other side and that.
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  It's a shit show.
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  - Yeah, don't get three cats.
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  - I never thought I would be this person with three cats,
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  but yeah.
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  - That was definitely like a grief for both of you.
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  Pulled the trigger move without like thinking
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  through any of these.
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  - I mean, okay.
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  - We were like, we want one.
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  We did a lot of research and a lot of people said,
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  get two so that they can play with each other.
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  And so as we get a young cat.
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  - We're just getting cats for cats for cats.
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  - Yeah, we're gonna, we got a cat for my cat.
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  - Oh no.
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  - And now your original cat needs its own cat
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  to fight the other cats.
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  - You know what I wanted to do?
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  It's just gonna be a cat fight club at here.
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  It's just gonna be fucking harder style at here.
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  - Yeah, I love your load of the fly is cat.
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  - Cat.
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  - Oh my god.
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  - The momentum happening in your room.
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  - I will keep you updated.
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  When I see you in a couple days,
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  if I have scratches all over me,
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  my dream business.
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  - My dream business.
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  - My now?
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  - My dream business.
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  - I'm fine.
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  The other day I didn't see a dog that looked a lot like Buffy
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  and I was like, no, miss that baby.
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  - I miss her so much.
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  I was literally petting Pewter's head last night
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  and he's really soft and I close my eyes.
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  And his head felt like I was petting Buffy
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  and I just burst into tears and poor guys looking at me like,
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  "What did I do?"
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  And I was like, that's the thing you didn't do.
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  - Are you about to put me back in the bathroom?
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  - Oh god.
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  - I know.
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  - They are for freedom.
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  - Yeah.
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  - So that's my cat day.
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  - Yeah.
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  - I'm excited to see you.
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  I'm excited for meeting you.
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  - I know.
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  - I'm mid evil times.
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  - Mid evil times.
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  Yeah, I'm a, you know, we're recording today,
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  but I will be in Phoenix tomorrow,
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  which is exciting, except the fact that I was going
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  for this trip, I was like,
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  it's gonna be the last time that I can go there.
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  And it not be hotter than hell.
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  And it is hotter than, it's 100 degrees right now.
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  And then the following week, I was looking at the forecast.
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  It's supposed to go back down to 80.
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  And I was like, what is this shit?
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  - It's going back to spring time next week.
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  It's me, hit for our airless centers
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  who don't live in Arizona.
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  The first day of spring, the spring equinox is March 20th.
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  On March 19th, Arizona hit 100 degrees.
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  That was still winter.
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  That was winter.
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  And it's the earliest in recorded history
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  that Arizona hit 100 degrees.
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  So thanks, global warming.
• 10:15
  - Yeah, I mean, it was like 82 degrees here in San Francisco.
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  I've lived here for like a year.
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  The only time it has ever done that before
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  was when you were here.
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  - I was during that one trip.
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  - It was so nice though.
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  I spent every night at the beach last week.
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  - Oh, shallas.
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  I wish I could just teleport to you.
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  - I did, you know, they gotta get on it.
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  Like, what are we doing over there?
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  - They gotta get on it.
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  - The boys must be.
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  - They must be.
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  - 'Cause I'm not gonna do it.
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  Yeah, why do we have like 30 different celebrity makeup lines
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  that we don't have teleportation?
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  What are we doing?
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  - Thank you.
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  Thank you.
• 10:53
  Get on it, Kylie Jenner.
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  (laughing)
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  - So yeah, I'm so excited.
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  My boyfriend and I are going to Phoenix
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  and he's never been to a native.
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  - I know, I know, it's quite right.
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  He's never been to a native evil times.
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  So there's nine of us.
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  - What?
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  - Oh my God, I know.
• 11:13
  - Why would I just go to a medieval times?
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  Like, I've been to a ring there.
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  - Because it's a fucking awesome experience.
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  What do you mean?
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  There's horses, there's a medieval meal.
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  There's a little gallantry.
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  There are men in their little costumes.
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  It's amazing.
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  - I am excited for men in costumes.
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  - Yeah, when I was younger, my dad, whenever my mom would leave
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  for whatever reason, he would take us to medieval times.
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  Because he's like, "Well, what am I supposed to do?"
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  - Oh, I'd say love this.
• 11:44
  - Yeah.
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  And they're very few in the United States.
• 11:48
  - Yeah.
• 11:49
  - You did it when we lived in Chicago.
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  And drunkenly one night, me, Blake and my friend out here,
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  we were talking about medieval times.
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  And I was like, "We're going."
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  And nine of us are dressing up all in medieval clothes
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  and going to medieval times.
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  So it's going to be a beautiful experience.
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  It's a great way for your boyfriend to meet everyone
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  is when they're in little weird medieval lad pants.
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  - Yes.
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  I really, this is my first time meeting your boyfriend.
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  And if he's not in little medieval lad pants,
• 12:23
  I want Blake to be in a cod piece.
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  - Yeah.
• 12:26
  - I don't know what a cod piece is,
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  but I want him to be in it.
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  - No, don't worry.
• 12:32
  We ordered him a strapping little medieval lad outfit.
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  So it's going to be beautiful.
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  - He's a little lad who likes fairies and cream.
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  My husband will not be dressing up.
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  - He's not alone.
• 12:46
  - But he will be there.
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  I'm going to maybe put him in like a cotton shirt.
• 12:51
  - Yeah.
• 12:52
  - Like a linen shirt.
• 12:53
  - He's got to wear like a, a henly.
• 12:55
  - Yeah.
• 12:56
  - I'll put him in a linen shirt with little buttons here.
• 13:00
  - Yeah.
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  - I draw a head on if he doesn't semi participate.
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  Like what does he think he's too cool for medieval pants?
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  - Yes, he does.
• 13:08
  He also says it's white people shit.
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  - You know what?
• 13:12
  - It's fair.
• 13:13
  - Yeah.
• 13:14
  - And it's the best part of white people shit.
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  - And people say white people have no culture.
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  (laughing)
• 13:21
  - So yeah, so I'm very, very, very excited.
• 13:23
  It will be a lovely time.
• 13:26
  - Yes.
• 13:27
  We'll post pictures to the Instagram of me and Olivia
• 13:30
  and our maybe our men if they look cute.
• 13:32
  But mostly just us.
• 13:33
  We'll put pictures.
• 13:34
  - No Andrew.
• 13:35
  - No Andrew.
• 13:36
  - 'Cause he's a little--
• 13:37
  - If he's in his little linen shirt then--
• 13:39
  - Yeah, we'll just point, we'll get an arrow
• 13:41
  that says loser pointed next to him.
• 13:45
  - I'll go through a Burger King drive through
• 13:46
  on the way and get him like a,
• 13:48
  like a Bracking crowd or something.
• 13:49
  - There you go.
• 13:50
  Yeah, that works, that works.
• 13:51
  - I'm sure I have something.
• 13:52
  - I'm like, "I'm costume drunk."
• 13:53
  - It's a BK lounge, y'all know me.
• 13:56
  All right, what's our podcast episode about?
• 13:59
  - We should do a podcast episode someday
• 14:01
  where you and I just yap the entire time.
• 14:03
  Like there's no topic.
• 14:05
  - We just fucking-- - I think that's the whole point
• 14:06
  of the podcast.
• 14:08
  - Yeah, we just--
• 14:09
  - But like the whole thing, there's no topic.
• 14:12
  - Yeah, but this week there is and what is it?
• 14:15
  - Yeah, so you may have seen in recent news
• 14:19
  that Britney Spears just sold her entire music
• 14:23
  out of log for around $200 million.
• 14:26
  And it's ultimately like a growing trend
• 14:31
  within the music industry that we see.
• 14:34
  A lot of these really big artists
• 14:36
  selling their lives work, right?
• 14:38
  We have Justin Bieber who is actually the youngest artist
• 14:42
  to sell their entire music catalog.
• 14:45
  - Interesting, I didn't know that.
• 14:47
  - Yeah, it is quite interesting.
• 14:49
  So we wanted to talk a little bit about the state
• 14:52
  of the music industry post COVID, what that really looks like.
• 14:56
  I guess not even just post COVID, post physical media.
• 14:59
  Like really what is going on with our favorite artists?
• 15:03
  Why are they making the shift into ultimately
• 15:07
  selling their lives work?
• 15:10
  And really we saw this change start to come in.
• 15:13
  Back in the day music used to be simple.
• 15:15
  You sold albums, you made money, CDs, vinyls,
• 15:18
  even some digital downloads.
• 15:20
  Whenever the iPod was first invented
• 15:22
  and we were playing a dollar or song, like,
• 15:25
  releasing an album meant money,
• 15:28
  even if those artists didn't own their own music or masters.
• 15:33
  And so as we shifted into streaming,
• 15:37
  it became a really, really interesting paradigm shift, right?
• 15:40
  Where these artists couldn't necessarily make
• 15:43
  the same level of money that they were with CDs
• 15:47
  and physical media sales.
• 15:49
  There is the famous controversy between Taylor Swift
• 15:52
  and Spotify, actually, where she took all of her music off
• 15:56
  of Spotify because they were paying her so little
• 16:00
  on every, every stream.
• 16:02
  She eventually won that argument and got most artists rates up,
• 16:06
  but we still see it under smaller musicians,
• 16:09
  where they are still largely prohibited from making money.
• 16:14
  It's a less profitable listen for these musicians.
• 16:19
  And so even though we see these artists having millions
• 16:22
  of streams and it sounds huge,
• 16:25
  it's not paying out any money like they used to make.
• 16:29
  Yeah, and I mean, this isn't an entirely new phenomenon.
• 16:33
  Over the years, Bob Dylan sold his music rights,
• 16:37
  Bruce Springsteen sold his entire catalog,
• 16:40
  including his recording and songwriting for $500 million,
• 16:45
  which was one of the largest music catalog deals ever.
• 16:48
  Stevie Nix, Neil Young, the Red Hot Chili Peppers, Paul Simon,
• 16:53
  lots of artists have done this, Pink Floyd.
• 16:56
  So over the years, have all sold their music catalogs.
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  So the music catalog is the collection of songs
• 17:03
  that an artist has written or recorded.
• 17:05
  So everything that they've ever done,
• 17:07
  selling their catalog means that they transfer the ownership
• 17:11
  of the copyrights and the royalty income to another company.
• 17:17
  So in exchange for this, they receive like a large upfront payment,
• 17:22
  sometimes hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars.
• 17:26
  And then these buyers collect royalties
• 17:28
  from streaming, licensing, radio, play, et cetera.
• 17:31
  So anytime Bob Dylan's song is played,
• 17:34
  Bob Dylan doesn't get the money.
• 17:36
  It's whoever bought the rights to that song
• 17:39
  or to that music catalog.
• 17:41
  Yeah, and I think it's kind of interesting.
• 17:43
  And because a lot of those bands are older bands,
• 17:47
  right?
• 17:48
  Like, where they're maybe making greatest hits albums,
• 17:51
  like they're not necessarily making a lot of new music to the stage.
• 17:56
  I mean, it was ultimately seen as like a retirement plan
• 18:00
  or like selling it to the estate, right?
• 18:03
  The estate can make money.
• 18:05
  But really what we've seen is a shift into younger and younger artists,
• 18:12
  starting to sell these catalogs and even for more.
• 18:16
  Like I mentioned Justin Bieber sold his catalog, right?
• 18:20
  And I think that Justin Bieber and Britney Spears
• 18:24
  are two very, very interesting people to discuss as well.
• 18:29
  Because with the shift to streaming,
• 18:31
  if a active artist wanted to make money,
• 18:35
  the way that they were going to go about making money
• 18:38
  as a musician was touring, that became the real paycheck, right?
• 18:42
  We have concerts, merch, VIP packages, meat and greets,
• 18:46
  and ultimately the COVID-19 pandemic hit,
• 18:49
  over and dying, a lot of the income disappeared.
• 18:52
  There were no live tours, no live shows.
• 18:54
  But these two artists specifically,
• 18:56
  what is quite interesting is they struggle
• 19:00
  and they no longer want to tour.
• 19:03
  So Justin Bieber has traditionally,
• 19:06
  like I think he's canceled two or three of his tours.
• 19:09
  Something like that.
• 19:10
  He has sold.
• 19:11
  And then Britney Spears as well has expressed, you know,
• 19:15
  hey, I never want to do that again.
• 19:17
  I think the difference between Britney and Justin, though,
• 19:20
  is that Justin is still releasing music
• 19:23
  and is still kind of seen as like a current pop star,
• 19:27
  current artist.
• 19:27
  Like he could put out new music and no one would be shocked.
• 19:30
  If Britney Spears put out a new album,
• 19:33
  let's not lie, that's not going to happen anytime soon, right?
• 19:37
  Especially after this latest arrest.
• 19:40
  So I do think it is more interesting.
• 19:42
  Like where Britney seems like,
• 19:44
  yeah, she's settling down, she's going into that.
• 19:46
  Let me kind of rest on my laurels and make money kind of thing.
• 19:49
  Like Justin's a little more interesting
• 19:51
  because he's still putting out music.
• 19:53
  But you're right, like he has expressed interest
• 19:56
  that he doesn't want to be like a big arena touring,
• 19:59
  you know, artists anymore.
• 20:00
  So I guess that's a way to make that a immediate financial security,
• 20:04
  which I think is probably the top reason why artists sell their catalogs.
• 20:09
  Yeah, and it's very, very interesting.
• 20:10
  I mean, I think there are two ways
• 20:13
  that they, I guess three ways, right?
• 20:15
  Like an active artist can go into it and tour like crazy,
• 20:20
  do the whole musician thing.
• 20:22
  They can sell their catalog to a private equity company
• 20:27
  and get a big cash payout,
• 20:28
  or they can go like the Taylor Swift route
• 20:31
  and ultimately sell those master,
• 20:34
  or buy back their masters and have control.
• 20:36
  But so it's been quite interesting.
• 20:38
  And one of the most interesting parts of that is, you know,
• 20:42
  when you think of Justin Bieber, you know,
• 20:45
  who's behind that as well, it's Scooter Braun.
• 20:48
  And Scooter Braun has ultimately been behind the,
• 20:52
  I mean, he was the manager of Ariana Grande, Justin Bieber as well.
• 20:58
  So does Scooter Braun own Justin Bieber's catalog?
• 21:02
  Because I know that he owned tailors, right?
• 21:05
  And that's where that whole shabackle happened.
• 21:10
  So hip-nosis songs, capital acquired Justin Bieber's interest.
• 21:16
  And it was a deal brokered by his manager, Scooter Braun.
• 21:20
  So Scooter Braun made money there and ultimately went into this campaign
• 21:25
  to purchase Taylor Swift's music as well.
• 21:29
  So ultimately, I mean, Scooter Braun is in the game right now
• 21:34
  of buying catalogs and making money off of that.
• 21:39
  Absolutely.
• 21:40
  And it's been really, really interesting to see,
• 21:43
  I think there is like this new level of understanding
• 21:48
  that these new artists when they come in,
• 21:51
  they really are sold into, you know,
• 21:54
  essentially like these slave contracts, ultimately.
• 21:59
  Like they are signed to these record labels.
• 22:02
  They don't really make any money.
• 22:04
  They are controlled by them.
• 22:06
  So sometimes these record companies will pay them money
• 22:09
  to have like four albums come out.
• 22:12
  And they won't release them to hold them back
• 22:15
  from like preventing another artist.
• 22:18
  Like Normani is a really great way to look at it
• 22:22
  where they got signed, but the record label actually
• 22:25
  prevented them from releasing any music.
• 22:28
  Really why?
• 22:29
  So Normani was a part of Fifth Harmony.
• 22:32
  And just like competing that.
• 22:34
  And yeah, like there are these, you know,
• 22:36
  kind of political motions and dealing happening.
• 22:39
  Interesting.
• 22:41
  They didn't want her to put out a record at the same time
• 22:43
  as another artist kind of thing.
• 22:45
  And I know Kasha famously tried to get out of her record deal
• 22:48
  for years for, you know, I mean, obviously abuse allegations.
• 22:51
  But I didn't know that about Normani.
• 22:54
  I mean, I guess that makes sense.
• 22:55
  There's so much shady stuff that goes on behind the scenes.
• 22:58
  And there's a lot of reasons why different companies
• 23:00
  would want a famous artist's musical catalog, right?
• 23:03
  So it's a reliable royalty income right there.
• 23:07
  There's opportunities for film, TV licensing.
• 23:11
  We want to put that old hit in a movie or in a commercial.
• 23:15
  Gosh, and how many times are you watching TV
• 23:18
  and you see a commercial show up?
• 23:20
  And it's like this song that used to be really cool.
• 23:22
  And now it's for like a toilet paper commercial.
• 23:25
  And you're like, yeah, who said he yes to this?
• 23:28
  And you realize, OK, well, they sold the rights to that song.
• 23:32
  So that can be used for that toilet paper dishwasher
• 23:34
  commercial now.
• 23:36
  It can be sampled by new artists without having to ask,
• 23:40
  Bruce Springsteen, if we can use his sample from his song,
• 23:45
  merchandise and brand expansion.
• 23:48
  And we can put them into political rallies, things like that
• 23:52
  without having to ask the artist how they feel about it too.
• 23:56
  Yeah, ultimately.
• 23:58
  And we're going to kind of take a quick break.
• 24:00
  And we're going to come back and talk a little bit about what
• 24:03
  is going on once this ownership transfer happens.
• 24:07
  So as we mentioned, really once this transfer happens,
• 24:16
  the artist ultimately has no control
• 24:18
  over how their music gets used.
• 24:21
  It can be used by another artist.
• 24:22
  It can be used by a toilet paper company.
• 24:25
  And ultimately, it can be used in political campaigns
• 24:29
  that the artist does not support or is proactively against.
• 24:34
  And it becomes this really, really interesting movement
• 24:37
  where, hey, Donald Trump is using a Sabrina Carpenter
• 24:42
  song.
• 24:42
  Like, how does that work?
• 24:44
  Does that represent them?
• 24:45
  And it really just kind of like muddies the waters.
• 24:49
  So generally, what is happening when an artist sells their catalog?
• 24:52
  They're either selling their publishing rights, which
• 24:54
  is like what most artists have, I will say.
• 24:58
  And then if they were lucky enough to negotiate this
• 25:01
  in their contract, normally they are not.
• 25:03
  Because again, they are trying to get famous.
• 25:05
  They don't really know what they're signing.
• 25:08
  Yeah.
• 25:08
  Or they just don't have that negotiation control.
• 25:11
  The master recording rights, which is actually
• 25:14
  like the physical copy of what got recorded in a studio.
• 25:19
  Or both, right?
• 25:20
  Taylor Swift was trying to buy back the masters.
• 25:24
  She had her publishing rights, which
• 25:27
  is why she was able to re-record Taylor's version.
• 25:31
  So that's kind of those two things within that.
• 25:35
  So people are like, how does she not get in trouble
• 25:37
  for Taylor's version?
• 25:39
  If she didn't have the publishing rights,
• 25:41
  then she wouldn't have been able to redo all
• 25:43
  of the Taylor's version stuff.
• 25:44
  It very interesting.
• 25:46
  Correct.
• 25:46
  Yes.
• 25:47
  But what she wanted was those master recordings.
• 25:50
  And those masters like to repurpose those recordings.
• 25:56
  So once sold, the new owner controls those likes
• 26:00
  the things that decisions that could be used in films,
• 26:03
  advertisements, commercial, political campaigns,
• 26:06
  and things like that.
• 26:08
  And so if a campaign wants to use a song in the advertisement,
• 26:11
  it must ask the catalog owner not the artist.
• 26:15
  So Sony owns a lot of these catalogs as well.
• 26:19
  Or like hypnosis and things like that.
• 26:23
  So the artists have still tried to stop campaigns
• 26:27
  from using their songs and them, even if they
• 26:29
  don't own their rights to them.
• 26:31
  So Tom Petty's estate, Neil Young, the Rolling Stones,
• 26:34
  have publicly demanded that political campaigns stop
• 26:37
  using their songs.
• 26:39
  They can argue that it implies that they
• 26:41
  support the candidate, which may violate publicity laws.
• 26:45
  But at the end of the day, the best that the artist can do
• 26:48
  is put out a statement that's like,
• 26:51
  yes, I did see that my song was being used at a fascist rally.
• 26:56
  And no, I don't agree with that.
• 26:58
  But--
• 26:59
  Yeah.
• 27:00
  Yeah.
• 27:01
  And I mean, even in situations like Olivia Rodrigo
• 27:05
  and Sabrina Carpenter are really good examples.
• 27:08
  They were being used in videos on TikTok
• 27:11
  for these ice propaganda videos.
• 27:15
  And can they sue ultimately?
• 27:19
  Can their parent companies sue ultimately?
• 27:21
  Did they own the rights to their music?
• 27:24
  They have publishing rights.
• 27:26
  I don't think that they have their master.
• 27:29
  So it is like a great reason.
• 27:31
  But again, these artists are making less money
• 27:34
  than they've ever made industry.
• 27:37
  And for them to do that, that is a very large legal bill
• 27:43
  and drawn out.
• 27:46
  So it is a little bit of--
• 27:50
  is the juice worth the squeeze.
• 27:52
  And I think it'll be quite interesting to see--
• 27:55
  I mean, TikTok and the use of artist music
• 28:00
  without ultimately paying for it.
• 28:03
  I think that we will see a lot more issues with that.
• 28:07
  Universal music group actually took off a lot of their music
• 28:10
  from TikTok for quite a long period.
• 28:12
  I noticed that.
• 28:14
  Yeah.
• 28:14
  So it is a game where these really powerful players
• 28:20
  are kind of going between it.
• 28:22
  I think individual artists don't ultimately really
• 28:25
  have control over how that gets used
• 28:28
  unless you are someone like a tailor's.
• 28:31
  Yeah.
• 28:31
  And she's in a very rare category.
• 28:34
  And it was one of the few artists who
• 28:37
  bought for it to get another artist as well.
• 28:40
  Yeah, yeah.
• 28:41
  Absolutely.
• 28:42
  So I looked into-- after I saw that Britney Spears sold her
• 28:46
  music catalog, and it kind of coincided with her going through--
• 28:51
  I mean, she's been going through it for years,
• 28:53
  but it looks like she's back on a downward journey right
• 28:56
  now, unfortunately.
• 28:57
  I looked into whether or not selling music catalog
• 29:00
  can signal that there's problems.
• 29:02
  And the answer was not really, honestly.
• 29:06
  Most catalog sales are strategic financial moves.
• 29:09
  These are things that have been in the works for years
• 29:11
  and years.
• 29:12
  I mentioned Bob Dylan.
• 29:13
  He sold his catalog for hundreds of millions of dollars
• 29:16
  while actively still creating music,
• 29:19
  same with Justin Bieber.
• 29:21
  The market for catalogs has been extremely hot.
• 29:24
  Some artists sell it just to simplify their lives.
• 29:27
  They just-- like I mentioned earlier,
• 29:29
  take things off of their plates, simplify the states
• 29:32
  for their families.
• 29:34
  But I think it just kind of-- because it coincided with Britney,
• 29:38
  bam, bam, she got arrested.
• 29:40
  And then she sold her music catalog.
• 29:41
  Everyone was like, oh my god.
• 29:43
  Well, she's already sold her music by then.
• 29:46
  Yeah, exactly.
• 29:47
  But it was like, this must be bad signs for anybody who does this,
• 29:51
  but not necessarily.
• 29:53
  Like you mentioned earlier, it could be artists
• 29:56
  who are kind of getting old.
• 29:57
  And they're done to her, and they're done releasing music.
• 30:00
  But it doesn't necessarily have to be that.
• 30:04
  Why do you think it was so important to Taylor
• 30:07
  to get the rights back to her music?
• 30:11
  Yeah, so I think what's so interesting about Taylor in general,
• 30:19
  right?
• 30:19
  We all know that I'm obsessed with Taylor's.
• 30:22
  But I kind of mentioned these two kind of critical moments
• 30:27
  for artists that we've seen within our lifetime,
• 30:30
  the introduction of streaming.
• 30:33
  And Taylor Swift was the first artist really
• 30:35
  to go up against streaming.
• 30:38
  In a very public way, in a way, that would say,
• 30:41
  I will make it more difficult for people
• 30:43
  to listen to me, to find me, to kind of honor
• 30:48
  the rights of artists.
• 30:50
  I do think that she is someone who cares very deeply about the art
• 30:56
  that she creates and the right to make it.
• 30:59
  Now, it is like a money-making thing.
• 31:01
  But I think that Spotify is a very great example of that.
• 31:06
  And now she has a great relationship with Spotify, right?
• 31:09
  I think that to her, it wasn't just I need to make more money.
• 31:14
  It was everybody else needs to make more money as well
• 31:16
  and to come into this industry.
• 31:19
  Yeah, it did seem like she was trying to do it for everybody,
• 31:21
  and especially for artists who aren't as big as her,
• 31:24
  who aren't getting that much money.
• 31:26
  I mean, you can listen to so many independent artists
• 31:29
  that are unspotted to, like so many just like up-and-coming musicians
• 31:33
  who aren't rich and powerful, like Taylor Swift.
• 31:36
  Yeah.
• 31:37
  And like you said, it does seem like she really appreciated the art,
• 31:39
  too, like everything that she creates is kind of like her little baby
• 31:42
  that she writes and works on so hard.
• 31:44
  So yeah.
• 31:45
  And Taylor Swift is still a very big artist at this time.
• 31:49
  But this was 2014, right?
• 31:51
  This was 12 years ago.
• 31:53
  It was right before she released 1989.
• 31:55
  She wasn't the person that she was then.
• 31:59
  And at the time, we didn't necessarily
• 32:02
  know a lot of these things, but she was in a fight
• 32:06
  with Big Machine to ultimately get those master recordings.
• 32:11
  They told her if she finishes her contract,
• 32:13
  she will have the opportunity to buy those masters.
• 32:17
  They would give her the chance.
• 32:19
  When she finished her contract and was looking to go somewhere else,
• 32:23
  they ultimately did not get her the opportunity
• 32:26
  to buy them back herself.
• 32:27
  They sold them to Scooter Braun without giving her the chance
• 32:32
  to in a capitalistic world compete and actually make an offer.
• 32:37
  And so I think that if I look at both of those situations
• 32:43
  with her, she signed that contract, not necessarily
• 32:48
  understanding the value of that master.
• 32:52
  She had recording rights, but she didn't have the right
• 32:56
  to those masters.
• 32:58
  That has been kind of an industry standard for a very long time.
• 33:02
  Oh yeah, artists historically don't own their own music.
• 33:06
  So for most of modern music history, record labels
• 33:09
  own master recordings.
• 33:11
  They funded the recording, the promotion, the distribution.
• 33:15
  Artists often sign contracts earlier in their careers,
• 33:18
  like you mentioned, without the negotiating power
• 33:21
  or knowledge.
• 33:23
  So many famous musicians never owned the recordings
• 33:27
  to the music that made them famous.
• 33:28
  I don't think--
• 33:30
  I don't know if the Michael Jackson estate
• 33:32
  even owns rights to his music.
• 33:35
  Right?
• 33:36
  So I think he's told a lot of it.
• 33:37
  Yeah.
• 33:38
  As well.
• 33:39
  Like the most famous musicians in the world.
• 33:41
  So that's why it was really unique in such a big deal
• 33:45
  that Taylor did this.
• 33:48
  Yeah.
• 33:48
  And I think that it ultimately just shines a light on.
• 33:54
  We look at a chapel room and Olivia Rodrigo,
• 33:58
  Sabrina Carpenter, and we say, wow, they are so wealthy.
• 34:02
  And they are much more wealthy than the average American.
• 34:06
  But I think when you peek behind the curtain,
• 34:10
  you really do understand sometimes these artists
• 34:13
  are even in debt to these recording labels.
• 34:15
  They have signed contracts that the record label
• 34:19
  is paying for the recordings.
• 34:21
  They have to make this much money.
• 34:23
  When I say slave contract, it is truly--
• 34:27
  these people are stuck in these agreements.
• 34:30
  And they are--
• 34:33
  They can do whatever they want.
• 34:34
  It's truly disgusting.
• 34:36
  Did you watch the Diddy documentary?
• 34:38
  I mean, obviously there was a bazillion disgusting things
• 34:42
  that Peter did.
• 34:43
  But some of the artists who were under his contract
• 34:46
  were so broke.
• 34:48
  And--
• 34:49
  Did they become--
• 34:50
  Yeah, and couldn't afford rent.
• 34:52
  Or they were just pinching pennies
• 34:56
  while he's living this big elaborate lifestyle.
• 34:59
  That's so interesting.
• 35:01
  I do think now that more newer artists
• 35:04
  are trying to negotiate terms in their contracts better
• 35:08
  that gives them ownership over the master's faster revision
• 35:11
  rights, greater control over licensing and things
• 35:16
  before they go into these record contracts.
• 35:20
  Yeah.
• 35:21
  And it's just like you have to have someone in your corner.
• 35:25
  You have to have someone in your corner
• 35:27
  can negotiate that.
• 35:28
  You have to have the knowledge to do that.
• 35:30
  You have to be popular enough to where a recording label
• 35:35
  is willing to do that.
• 35:37
  And that upfront cost and time, energy,
• 35:41
  effort, just some of the greatest artists ever,
• 35:45
  we will never know because of that.
• 35:47
  Right?
• 35:48
  It is quite crazy.
• 35:50
  People who should be famous and talented--
• 35:53
  Ridiculously talented people.
• 35:55
  Yeah.
• 35:56
  And we just never will because of those things.
• 35:58
  And yeah, I think it is quite interesting
• 36:01
  to look at the industry.
• 36:04
  And ultimately, the consequences of these big wigs
• 36:10
  and their ability to control what we see.
• 36:12
  I think there is a sense of hope with democratizing music
• 36:17
  in the way that we have.
• 36:18
  I can go onto TikTok and find an indie artist
• 36:21
  and social media.
• 36:23
  But then we go into this ownership of like, OK, everything
• 36:27
  I post on the internet is that mine?
• 36:30
  I know.
• 36:31
  That's so interesting.
• 36:32
  That's so interesting too.
• 36:33
  Do we even own the rights to this podcast?
• 36:36
  Yeah.
• 36:36
  Oh, it is quite--
• 36:38
  No one used my voice for weird things.
• 36:42
  Yeah.
• 36:42
  And I think that it is--
• 36:44
  it's an interesting conversation.
• 36:46
  I think it is quite wild to see how things have evolved
• 36:54
  and changed and why these artists are starting
• 36:57
  to make a move towards that.
• 36:59
  Yeah, that's very interesting.
• 37:01
  I mean, I don't know.
• 37:02
  If I was a famous singer, maybe in my next life,
• 37:07
  I want to go to a famous thing called--
• 37:09
  Because I'm a singer.
• 37:11
  I have a beautiful voice.
• 37:13
  I think they would let you own all the rights
• 37:15
  because they don't want them.
• 37:17
  They don't want them.
• 37:19
  They would let me have them because they don't want them.
• 37:21
  They would go to the top.
• 37:23
  The voice is too powerful.
• 37:25
  Give it back.
• 37:26
  Give it back.
• 37:27
  Oh, god.
• 37:29
  I just don't want my music being played
• 37:31
  at like a Trump rally or some shit or an ice recruitment
• 37:35
  video.
• 37:36
  Well, we're definitely in territory
• 37:38
  of getting put on Fox News in a bad way.
• 37:42
  Not in a--
• 37:43
  Me and you?
• 37:43
  Oh, we love those girls.
• 37:46
  So look at these fucking crazy guys.
• 37:50
  Hey, guys.
• 37:51
  We're here every week.
• 37:53
  Yeah.
• 37:55
  We would love to be a ship member.
• 37:57
  We would.
• 37:57
  Listen.
• 37:58
  The cops producers.
• 38:00
  Hit me up.
• 38:02
  All right.
• 38:03
  On that note.
• 38:06
  Yeah, it is time for us to go.
• 38:08
  Maybe shop a few offers to sell this catalog.
• 38:11
  OK.
• 38:12
  That's the stuff.
• 38:13
  We'll see.
• 38:14
  But we'd love to hear what you think about this or any topic
• 38:17
  we discuss.
• 38:18
  Shauna, where can our listeners find you on social media?
• 38:22
  You can find me,
• 38:23
  Shauna Trinidad, @shaunatrinidad on Instagram and Threads.
• 38:28
  S-H-A-U-N-A-T-R-I-N-I-D-A-D.
• 38:33
  And you can find me, Olivia on Instagram @livimariez
• 38:38
  L-I-V-I-M-A-R-I-E-Z.
• 38:41
  And just a reminder here.
• 38:44
  Normally, we pop this in at the break.
• 38:47
  But we do have a Patreon.
• 38:50
  It's called Pop Culture Junkie.
• 38:52
  Patreon.
• 38:53
  We don't ask for much.
• 38:54
  A little bit of money goes a long way for us,
• 38:56
  even in this upside down economy.
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• 40:40
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