Latest / UK Column Radio / Daylight Savings Time is unhealthy and stupid | Jerm Warfare Weekly Banter

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Daylight Savings Time is unhealthy and stupid | Jerm Warfare Weekly Banter · UK Column Radio

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: So so My name is Jerm. This is Jerm Warfare,
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: the battle of ideas. You have changed times.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: Our time has changed.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: I still don't get this. I have heard that there
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: are places around the world now that are dropping daylight
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: savings altogether. I mean, it doesn't seem– I just don't
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: get it. It doesn't seem like a practical– a solution.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: I think the argument is something along the lines of
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: trying to follow the sunlight, right? But it can't be
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: healthy when you artificially change the time.
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: It's supposed to be about mornings, daylight, evenings, trying to
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: keep as bright. But I mean, it doesn't work. So
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: it would be just sensible just to leave it on
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: the same time all year round. And that's not summertime. Yeah.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: And it's very confusing for people like me who are
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: on the other side of the world. And every year
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: it's the same thing. Well, frankly, for anyone. Yeah, but
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: that's it.
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: But even for countries that do change their clocks, they
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: don't do it at the same time. And I know
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: for anyone who's listening this time last year where we
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: were venting similar frustrations, sorry for the rehash. But that's,
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: you know, that's, again, part of the stupidity. If you're
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: going to do it, then why on earth would it
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: ever make sense to do it out of kilter with
• 1:47
  Speaker 3: other people that do the same thing?
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: I mean, it just doesn't.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, Jeremy, I just think we should just, because
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: we're going to be confusing the heck out of everybody
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: at the moment, we should just make the point that
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: on the new schedule, of course, it's two weeks after
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: the time changed. And so.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: But you see that, there you go. I mean, that,
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: that plays exactly into what I'm saying. Cause I, I
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: dare say there might've been somebody listening to that initially thinking, yeah,
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: this is exactly when the clocks change somewhere in the world.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: So yeah, highlights the point really, doesn't it? So wrap
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: your head around.
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: I know this is messing with your brain and all that,
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: but you know, we should, we should just make this clear. Yeah.
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: Well, let's make it even clearer. If you're listening to
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: this right now, this was recorded two weeks ago. Yeah.
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: Uh, It's very good.
• 2:41
  Speaker 4: It is.
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: But I'll tell you what. No, no, come on.
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: I've just got one more thing because if it really were,
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: I mean, I would be very happy if somebody would
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: weigh in here and correct me if I've overlooked something,
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: but I don't really see how that's possible.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: So the....
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: The shortest day in the Northern Hemisphere is either the
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: 20th or 21st of December, and the clocks change back
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: to Greenwich Mean Time approximately two months before that, maybe
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: slightly less. Now, logically, to me, if this is based
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: on maximising daylight or at least overlapping daylight with working
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: hours or children going to school hours or whatever the
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: justification is, Why do the clocks not change back on
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: roughly the 20th, 21st of February, which is two months
• 3:35
  Speaker 3: after the shortest day? Because they don't. They change, you know,
• 3:41
  Speaker 3: five weeks or more after that at the end of March. Now,
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: I don't get that. So it's an open question.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: But it just makes it look more like it's just
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: an exercise in sort of messing people around. I can't
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: see why it would be necessary to have it skew with.
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: So anyway, my policy, my personal policy is to completely
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: ignore the change and to run on, well, basically just
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: to operate on GMT all the time.
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: I just pulled up some data points on this while
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: you were talking there, Charles. So yeah, that's what some
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: research has found. So the title is what the research
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: finds after spring forward, quote unquote, the percent change in
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: risk or incidents in the days following the spring transition.
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: So in other words, losing one hour. Fatal car crashes
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: go up by 6%. workplace injuries got up by also
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: around 6%. Heart attacks got up by almost 25%. Yeah.
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: Endless justifications. Fine.
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: But I mean, let's face it, if you didn't change
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: it at all, then none of this would happen. Or
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: at least you wouldn't be able to say, oh, well,
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: it's because the clocks have changed. So, you know, if
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: it's only getting the time or the light level is
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: changing by a couple of minutes every day as opposed
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: to an hour, then... It seems reasonable to assume there
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: would be less disturbance.
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: Well, we on the African continent are so backwards that
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: we're actually probably advanced in the sense because we don't... You.
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: Can't even read it. You don't have the time, do you?
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: We just look at where the shadow is. But we joke.
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: I mean, it would be quite a blessing in many
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: ways if that were the case. The way that we
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: do measure time or the way that we allow time
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: to dictate so much of what we do, I think
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: is bordering on insanity sometimes.
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: Well, listen to this. The big non-observers of daylight savings
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: include China, India, Japan, most of Southeast Asia, Russia, and
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: nearly all of Africa and the Middle East. Brazil dropped
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: it in 2019. Mexico and Iran dropped it in 2022.
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: Paraguay made summertime permanent in 2024. And Kazakhstan unified its
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: zones also in 2024. So it's just all the Commonwealth
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: countries that are left.
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: Well, yeah, sort of. They're all countries. Yeah. There are
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: two common factors, though, I think, with the ones you've
• 6:32
  Speaker 3: just read out. Either they're quite a lot closer to
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: the equator, so the seasonal variance is much reduced, or
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: they span an absolutely enormous length of longitude. So, therefore,
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: what would be the point? I mean, China, for example,
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: is one time zone. That is interesting also.
• 6:53
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: So when I was in China, we went from the
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: east to the west and that's crossing, as far as
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: I remember, three time zones and the whole country. I
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: think it might be more actually. the whole country just
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: follows one time zone and that's Beijing time, which means
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: that if you, yeah, so in other words, if you're
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: on the West, it's actually darker for longer, but they
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: just use the time. Yeah, but exactly.
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: So therefore it's just, yeah, it's up to you in
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: the same way that it should be up to you.
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: If you decide that you want to get up at
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: whatever time in the morning in order to maximize the
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: sunlight in the morning or you don't, you.
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: Just do that. You don't need to change the clocks.
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: So if it was about school safety, then fine. In
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: which case, why not just taper the school day? Get
• 7:45
  Speaker 3: to school two minutes earlier every day throughout the summer
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: or two minutes later. I mean, that would be fun,
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: wouldn't it? And everybody would be confused all the time.
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: Every day would be confusion.
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: And it's also amplified by the fact that you also
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: have time zones. So I don't think you've got time
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: zones in the UK. I think it's all the same
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: time zone, right? Same as you have in South Africa.
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: But there's massive confusion, Jeremy. There's massive discussion at the
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: moment about whether the Channel Islands, which are, you know,
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: attached to the UK politically, but are attached to the
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: continent of Europe geographically. They're talking now about moving on
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: to French time. And then, of course, you've got Portugal,
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: which is in the same longitude as the UK, but
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: it stays on European time as well. And then you've
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: got the United States, which wants to have four time
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: zones or whatever it is, four or five time zones,
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: whatever it is.
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: So, yes, it's all a complete mess.
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: And then within the U.S., you've got time zones, daylight savings,
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: and some states just don't change at all. They just decide, no,
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: we're not going to do any of this. So that
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: adds three variables. It's just so ridiculous. It is good. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry,
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: go on. Did you say it is good?
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: No, I mean, I just mean it's good that it
• 8:59
  Speaker 3: can stimulate this much chaos, debate, everything else.
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think in some ways that is good.
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: That is healthy. Technically, South Africa's got two time zones.
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: So on the east where Durban is, it's actually an hour,
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: what would be ahead of us, technically, or 45 minutes
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: or 50 minutes, but it doesn't really matter that we
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: just all have the same time zone.
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: Okay. What do you mean technically? You mean based on
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: when the sun rises?
• 9:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: I mean, if you look at the longitudinal line, it crosses. Oh,
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: I see what you mean. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay, yeah. Well,
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: that's what I was going to talk about.
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: And I think all of this stuff that happens, of course,
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: twice a year for all the people that, well, in fact,
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: it affects everybody because even if your time doesn't change,
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: you become out of kills with other people. But what
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: I like about this is that it is possible to
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: point to one person. and blame them for this. I
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: quite like that.
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: John Harrison.
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: Oh, really?
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: Yes, because he mastered the creation of what was called
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: the C-clock. So prior to any of this nonsense, it
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: had not been possible to keep time accurately whilst at
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: sea when you were covering, if you were travelling east
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: to west. And this was because no clock could satisfactorily
• 10:28
  Speaker 3: behave when humidity and temperature and whatnot changed.
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: They all warped.
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: And then finally he nailed it with his final, I
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: can't And that is why zero degrees is the Greenwich Meridian.
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: That's why time is measured from London. And so this
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: entire mess, although I think he's an absolute genius, this
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: entire mess is the fault of John Harrison.
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: That is very interesting.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: I think that's just a little bit... unfair on John Howard.
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: It is.
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: I deliberately say, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Of course it is.
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: I mean it very much tongue in cheek. But all
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: I'm saying is that the history of it, the ingenuity
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: behind all of this is completely fascinating. And then you
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: look at how it's been used, which is to create
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: sort of deliberate chaos. I mean, that is not at
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: all what was driving him. He really was acting, I think,
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: for the benefit of all. He was doing something that
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: was just terrifically clever at a time where he could
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: only use his intelligence and his hands and his eyes
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: with which to work. No computers, no one helping. It's
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: pretty incredible.
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: I've said this before, but The way in which we
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: have our sort of alignment with day and night obviously
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: is natural. I mean, you can test this by going
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: to the bush for a week and you'll see how
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: your circadian rhythm adjusts to line up with when it's dark.
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: There's a fly in my studio. And I love testing that.
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: When it comes to the Kruger Park, for example, you
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: have a fire, you eat supper, it's dark by six
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: o'clock and by the time it's eight o'clock, you have
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: no reason to be awake. There's just no reason. So
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: you go to sleep and then you wake up at five.
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: Hold on a second.
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: Hold on. Are you suggesting there's not a bottle of
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: wine on your table?
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: No, it's done already.
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: It's finished. Well, open another one then. I mean, there's
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: plenty of reasons to stay.
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: Awake. But, but the thing is, uh, Charles, my point
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: is that you don't actually... I mean, sure, you need
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: a watch, I guess, technically, but you don't actually need
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: a watch. I mean, animals don't use a watch. They
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: just know, you know. I'm not talking about now for
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: scheduling during the day, like when we have to record
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: this kind of stuff, but I'm saying that you don't
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: need somebody to tell you when to wake up an
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: hour earlier or an hour later artificially. You know what
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: I mean? The whole thing just doesn't make sense. You
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: can just naturally... I don't know, find a reason to
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: go an hour later or an hour earlier or whatever
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: or leave an hour earlier. Sticking rigidly to an artificial
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: constraint can never benefit you. Yeah, I agree.
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: I think the only problem with that is it does
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: challenge people who live in last years either further north
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: or further south where you do get periods of time
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: in the year where the day is very long or
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: very short.
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: That's a good point.
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: And that's the only problem with that. But otherwise, I
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: would completely agree. I wonder then if it is natural
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: then to live in those regions of the world. I mean,
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: people do now, sure, and you can't change it. But
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: I just wonder if that was ever part of our
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: sort of natural– you know, our natural design to go
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: to those regions where it's sunny for 16 hours of
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: the day.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: Well, it's not like people have only been living there
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: for 50 years, Germ. You know, people have been living
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: there forever at these latitudes and people have adapted.
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that is true, which is why I get pushback
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: when I say go outside and get some sunshine because
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: in some of those parts of the world, it's dark for,
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: you know, three quarters of the day. But then you
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: end up having to take vitamin C supplements, or not
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: vitamin C, vitamin D supplements. And then, of course, the
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: whole conversation goes sideways.
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: Well, I don't think it does. I think the reason
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: people have survived and been able to live in those
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: parts is because they did manage to get the requisite
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: levels of, say, vitamin D, vitamin C, any of those things,
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: just because of the lifestyle they led. So of course,
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: we live in this ridiculous age now where people still
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: live in those places, but have by and large foregone
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: the lifestyle that enabled them to survive over the centuries.
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: And now people, well, okay, I'm speaking generally, obviously, but people, well, anywhere,
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: the fact that anyone has to take any supplement for
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: anything or feels they have to or do, you know,
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: whatever it is, is absurd. Everything that we need is there,
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: delivered on a plate. Even if you are living in
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: a region that is short of daylight, short of sunlight
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: for a period of time, it's not completely devoid of it.
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: Nobody lives where there is no sun, and therefore you
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: will be able to get what it is you need.
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: And if you're eating, what is available then? I mean,
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: obviously I cannot provide the exact details, but the fact
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: that certain types of food do exist in such places
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: and certain types don't, I would say quite strongly suggestive
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: of what you do need in certain places as opposed
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: to others, if you see what I mean.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: I'm just looking at a map now of the world
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: and where everything is located in relation to the equator,
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: which is where you get the most sun. And The
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: argument that we'll always have on my show is.
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: Hang on a minute. When you say you get the
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: most sun, that is not true. What do you mean
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: by that?
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: No, I mean... Over the course of the year, you
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: do not get the most sun on the equator. Wait,
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: hold on. What do you mean by that?
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: I knew that would confuse....
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: So I've started by describing what happens if you're extreme
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: north or extreme south latitude. So you go through a
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: certain period of time in the year where you've got
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: a very long day and then at the other side
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: of the year you've got a very short day.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: I get what you're saying.
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: On aggregate, the further you go from the equator, the
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: more sunlight, the more daylight. Sorry, specifically sunlight, actually, the
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: more sunlight you get over the course of the year. Okay,
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: that's a good point. So I think it's a common
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: misperception that the equator gets more sun.
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: Wouldn't it be intensity then?
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, of course. Yes, intensity. Yeah, absolutely. That is, yeah,
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: that's the case. So you can be in the Antarctic
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: and have almost 24 hours of sun, but you're not
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: going to get a very intense sun ray.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: Okay, okay.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: So, okay, but now that messes up my whole question. Well,
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: give it a go. Go on. Well, so I've constantly
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: been told over the years that around the equator, tends
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: to also host the world's laziest people, right? No matter
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: where you go around the world, there's very little evidence
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: of civilizational infrastructure. And you can look at it on
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: the map. Look at where all the major infrastructure around
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: the world has occurred. And I'm saying this because there's
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: a conflict here, because I'm trying to argue that it's
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: healthier around the equator because of the intensity of the sunshine.
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: But yet, if you look at a map, all the
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: major infrastructural development over the centuries has occurred far away
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: from the equator, like in Europe. Really? What about South America? Well,
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: that's quite a mess, wouldn't you say?
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: They historically had some of the biggest civilizations with the
• 18:54
  Speaker 4: biggest infrastructure building.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: You don't want Mexico and the Incas, et cetera? Maybe, yeah.
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: I wonder what happened then.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: What about China? Well, where does the equator run through
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: in Asia?
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: Does that run through Indonesia? China's quite far away.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. Yeah, of course it is.
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: I think China's probably as far away from the equator
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: as South Africa is, if I'm looking at the map.
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: Because we're kind of under the Tropic of Capricorn and
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: China would be above the Tropic of Cancer. So that's
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: that sort of ratio.
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: I think my contention for the laziness that you um
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: that you suggest and i'm not suggesting an equatorial belt
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: sorry that you are um that you are that's what
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: i've been told referring to that people have told you
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: um I would think that that has a lot to
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: do with the fact that by and large, the climate
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: and the availability of food within that region is such
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: that you need to do much less to survive. You
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: don't need... shelter and heat in the same way that
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: you do if you go further north, further south. Again,
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: I'm generalising. Of course, if you're at altitude, that is
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: a different thing. But then again, you would only choose
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: to go to live at altitude or try to exist
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: at altitude if you believe that you could. But the
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: availability of food and the fact that if you have,
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: by and large, what you need, water, food, shelter of
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: some description, then is there, I mean, at least in
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: the first instance, what's the requirement? What do you need
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: from anywhere else? So therefore, why would you be considering
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: doing a lot of the things that were done in
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: latitudes of further north or further south? Again, Topography, I'm sure,
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: must come into it too. I don't know. That is,
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: to me, the first sort of thought. I'm just not
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: sure that laziness is quite the right word. Well, I
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: also am looking at another pattern here, which we haven't mentioned,
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: and that is a lot of those countries along that
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: belt have had immense sort of geopolitical Not impact, but
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: they have been negatively impacted, like mineral.
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: Colonialism, et cetera. I mean, most of Africa around that
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: region has been heavily attacked by foreign interests. And it
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: would appear in many ways the same as in Latin America.
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but you're talking modern history. If we're talking about civilizations,
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: you've got to, you know, you're talking about a much
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: longer time. Yeah. I don't know.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: I think your argument probably holds, Charles. Because I've had
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: a similar conclusion, actually. Because you don't see, in the
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: last thousand years, you don't see majestic castles and things
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: that have been built across that belt. You see it
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: in Europe, where it's colder. But that could also just
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: be a coincidental thing, a timing thing.
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: I mean, I suppose I'm really specifically thinking of that
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: large expanse of Africa between the two coasts, which roughly
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: spans the equator.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: And has nothing historically on it in terms of infrastructure.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: I mean, certainly not until the colonial period. There are exceptions,
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: which of course never get talked about because they don't
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: really fit the narrative. But there are, and certainly in Zanzibar, well,
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: sort of on and near Zanzibar in Tanzania, there are
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: absolutely structures. And all the way up the Swahili coast,
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: there are quite ornate structures going back over a long
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: period of time. There are There are big structures similar
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: to the sort of great Zimbabwe ruins. There are structures
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: further north as well. But again, they don't really ever
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: get talked about. No one goes to visit them. So
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: they're sort of deemed of little interest and that. But
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: what I was going to say was that within that region,
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: I would say the most obvious difference with, say, Northern
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: Europe is the availability of water and how that affects
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: the way that you would live. If you're running livestock
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: and in exactly the same way that the wildlife goes
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: distances in order to get to water, you would do
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: the same if you had livestock and you were people
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: or you were indeed following the plane's game to feed yourself.
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: It doesn't make sense to build a bloody great castle
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: somewhere because you would only be able to use it
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: for three or four months a year. Whereas in Northern Europe,
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: you think of all the strategic points, either coastal or
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: on rivers or whatnot, you can be assured, pretty much,
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: I mean, barring the, gosh, all the... climate drama of
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: recent years, but you can rest assured that you will
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: have water. The river Danube below you is still going
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: to have water in it, come what may. The situation
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: is more constant. I don't know. That's off the top
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: of my head thinking, but that is quite a difference. Therefore,
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: the whole way in which you view life and your purpose,
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: I think, is different. If you're itinerant, why would you
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: build permanent structures?
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: What's the point? Yeah, I mean, I agree with you.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: I don't think it's necessarily an admiral trait to build
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: stuff for the sake of building stuff. I mean, you know,
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: Bushmen have been around forever, and they don't build castles. Yeah,
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: but it's the same.
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: You could point to, say, northern Scandinavia, Lapland, where people exist,
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: but over generations they've herded reindeer, so they have moved.
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: And you could write that region off in a similar way,
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: or we haven't built anything up there, but why would they?
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: What's the point in doing that? Whereas further south, where
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: the conditions are different, there are buildings of the sort
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: that we would consider as the sort of marks of civilization.
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: So it just depends on what conditions people have and
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: what they're doing in life.
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: And if.
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: That you're in a place where populations are less inclined
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: to move, then there is a sense in building structures,
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: particularly defensive, because you can foresee that there will be
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: competition in the way that there isn't when people are
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: moving around. There is competition, of course there is, but
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: it's for water and grazing. And interestingly, historically, some of
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: these more nomadic people groups have been around the longest.
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: despite building very little.
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: So, you know, that's a dissenting view to the let's
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: build stuff argument. Bushmen have been around for, I mean,
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: depending on which source of history you read, but they've
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: been around longer than almost anybody.
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I would like to just put a note of
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: doubt into that. How does anyone know? I'm afraid to
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: say I don't go along with much of that. Really,
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: how do you know?
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: There are certainly not recent people. No, no, no. Absolutely.
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: I would totally concede that. All I'm saying is if
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: you genetically tested people in Northeast and Siberia, how can
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: you honestly say, right, well, those people, they've sort of
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: been around for longer than those. I just don't think
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: that there's sufficient basis for believing that. I think that
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: whole thing is open to huge amounts of debate.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: Also, the counter argument to that is that Chinese have
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: been around for a long time also, and they're very developed.
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: So there's that also. When I say Chinese, I don't
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: necessarily mean the country of China. I mean the greater
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: Chinese sort of history. Yeah. Mike is just sitting there
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: shaking his head and rolling his eyes. Can't get over
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: the clock changing.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: No, just.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: Stop. Well, for somebody who works on clocks, For a hobby.
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: I do not work on clocks. I do not work
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: on clocks. Watches. Yes, clocks are too big.
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: Well, actually, that's interesting. Just quickly, what is the difference
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: between a clock and a watch? Obviously the size, but
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: at what point does a watch become a clock? When
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: you can stick it on a wall. That's really good.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: Or it stands up on its own.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: So those... Watches that people used to wear in their
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: pocket with a chain.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, pocket watches, yes.
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: Okay, so that was a watch. But if they put
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: it onto the wall, they hang it on the wall
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: on a screw, it was still a watch. No, it's
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: still a watch, yes. It's still a watch. Because intent
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: is important here.
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: Just in terms of mechanism though is there a significant
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: difference between say a pocket watch and a small clock.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: I mean the clocks began with obviously using gravity as
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: the sort of source of energy so you hung big
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: weights off things and that was what gave you the
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: energy and once you started, once spring started getting developed
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: and so on, then things started getting smaller. And then
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: at that point, you could start carrying the thing around
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: with you. And at that point, it became a watch.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: Okay, well, that is interesting. This is completely related.
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: Where the name came from, I don't know.
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: But this is very much related to where we started
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: because this is because John Harrison's last C-clock, the one
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: that effectively worked completely was run by a spring.
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: Yes. I mean, I think probably a better definition of
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: the difference between a clock and a watch is a
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: clock is designed to be a static thing. It stays
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: in one place. Okay, you might move the boat around
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: or you have a clock in a car which moves around,
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: but the clock itself stays static, whereas a watch... is
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: something that is mobile and you carry around no matter
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: which way you carry it.
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: Could it be a nautical term? Could it be from
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: a watch?
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: Yes, probably, yeah. Nautical or military, whatever.
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah. Yeah, okay.
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah. All right, fascinating. I'm just quickly looking up the
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: actual difference. What, you don't believe Mike?
• 30:55
  Speaker 4: No.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: No, Mike is completely on point. A watch is designed
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: to travel with you, which is precisely what Mike just said.
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: But that would be a recent invention, I'm guessing. I mean,
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: a pocket watch would have been the precursor, right, to
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: a wristwatch?
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: No, but I mean watches, early pocket watches, you know, 1700s,
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: maybe even earlier than that, but 1700s, you start getting
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: pocket watches. Yeah.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: And again, this is.
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: Sorry, go on, Mike.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: Well, I was just going to say, you know, this
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: is the bit that absolutely fascinates me is, you know,
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: the whole manufacturing process for creating the parts necessary to
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: have something that you can carry in your pocket, going
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: back that far without machines and without, you know, without,
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: you know, mechanical machines. And so, you know, it is
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: just amazing to me that people were able to produce
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: stuff that small at that time.
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: And again, this confirms what you're saying. Clocks were more
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: accurate because of the pendulum. Precision was a property of
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: a clock, whereas portability was a characteristic of a watch.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: But I was also wanting to know where the term
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: watch comes from. It comes from an old English term
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: which I can't pronounce. I don't know how to say this.
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: It's even written in funny lettering, so I don't know
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: how to pronounce it. But It says, meaning to keep
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: watch or to stay awake, the same root as watchman.
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: And then the word clock comes from Latin, which also
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: I can't pronounce, via medieval, also a word I can't pronounce.
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: I can't pronounce a lot of these words, to mean bell,
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: an instrument that rang the hours. Unfortunately, my primitive African
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: roots have restricted me from pronouncing words that otherwise should
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: be pronounced correctly. This is where you have centuries on us. Many,
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: many centuries. Even the language itself is also quite hybrid,
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: isn't it? English. Completely. It's the hybrid of all hybrids.
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: It's so funny that, because people talk about English being
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: a pure language. No, well, it's acquisitive.
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: That's why it's become dominant, because it's pinched words from
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: absolutely every other language going, and it has considerably more
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: words in it than anyone else. And that's why, well,
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: I mean, that's a large part of why it's, well,
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: it's sort of both sides of the same thing. I mean,
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: obviously the spread of it has been done by people,
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: but it has picked up all the words along the
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: way as well.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting. So a digital watch obviously is the
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: most accurate, just by virtue of it being digital. That's interesting.
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: No, a quartz watch, and it's got nothing to do
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: with being digital or not. A quartz watch is going
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: to be more accurate than a mechanical watch, but that
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: has nothing whatever to do with whether it's got a
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: digital display or an analog display. It's the mechanism that
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: creates the accuracy, not the display.
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: Well, it says, yeah, so a smartwatch, for example, tells
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: the time it can run apps and sync to network time,
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: which can therefore also sync to atomic clocks.
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: Yes, but Casio makes watches that are analog watches that
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: also sync to atomic clocks, so this is not something
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: which is, you don't have to have a smartwatch for this.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: So whoever wrote that article is full of it. For
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: the record, I don't have a smartwatch. I'm sure you
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: guys don't either. Well, you definitely don't have one, Mike.
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: I've seen your watch, Charles. It looks like an old
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: 1980s Casio, I think. Oh, right. Yeah, I have. It does.
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: I mean, that funnily enough performs as my alarm clock.
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: That's a sort of traveling watch, which is why you've
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: seen that one. Otherwise, I have a watch with hands.
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: I told you I bought an alarm clock that's the
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: old-fashioned one with the two little bells in it.
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: You did?
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: Yes. It's just so noisy. But it runs by batteries, though,
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: you said.
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: It's not a real clock.
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: Yes, it does.
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: It's just disrespectful. No, but it's on its way, Mike.
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: It's on its way. It's transitioning. It identifies.
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's transitioning, is it? What is the mechanism of transitioning?
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: You've got to pull out the nasty quartz movement and
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: put a good mechanical movement back in again.
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: Is that what you're going to do? By the way,
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: do you, Mike, have an actual pendulum clock in your house?
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: I've been in your house, but I can't remember if
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: I saw one. I do, and I'm probably just about
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: to acquire another one. Because my mother's going to sell
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: her house, and there's a fantastic, in fact, it's full
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: of old clocks.
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: None of them work. I may have a new hobby coming.
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: I ask that because those pendulum clocks, even the ones
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: that people have in their homes, are beautiful. I mean,
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: they're just beautiful. You can look at them for ages,
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: and it's just so aesthetically pleasing. And it's such a
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: sad thing. I really don't like the sort of modernization
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: that so many homes have got where everything is ultra,
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: ultra progressive with these crazy clocks in the walls that
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: don't have any feel to it. It's just like a blob.
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: And this is not just clocks. It's like anything. It's furniture,
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: the works. I just really, really hate that sort of
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: postmodern thing. I really wish history would repeat itself in
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: this instance, where people go back to old-fashioned time.
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: Well, I think we just need to go back to
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: a time where everything that we did, it wasn't that
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: it was only functional, but it had to look good
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: as well. And we've definitely abandoned that as a general principle.
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: I see so many free hands. Or a train station
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: or a clock. You know, there was some style to
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: what was done in the past.
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: Yes, except that what is so perverse, at least in
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: the marketing of a lot of the newfangled, well, most
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: of the newfangled stuff is that it is supposed to.
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: Be appealing to the eye.
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: That all these, particularly, whether, you know, mobile telephones or smartphones, new,
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: like that Jaguar that you sent me the picture of
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: the other day, these are all meant to be eye-catching
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: and aesthetically pleasing. So you're constantly being told to believe
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: that what you're looking at is a thing of beauty.
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: It isn't. It really isn't.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: It's incredible.
• 38:29
  Speaker 3: But I think a lot of people have absolutely gone
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: along with that and convinced themselves that it is a thing.
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: I vividly remember going back to the... sort of what's
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: different in different places. This might sound improbable, but I'd
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: never seen a smartphone until 2010. I shouldn't know they
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: were called smartphones, but I'd been, I was posted abroad
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: and was very happy. I had a little telephone with
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: buttons on it and went into a shop back in
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: England to acquire a new telephone. And the guy gave
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: me this thing. It was, you know, switched off. So
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: he just gave me a thing that just had a,
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: you know, just a big screen. And I mean, I
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: hadn't seen, I didn't know what it was. I just
• 39:18
  Speaker 3: said to him, so where are the buttons? And I
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: think he thought I was winding him up, but but
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: it you know it was a genuine question and um
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: and i was just amazed that he was obviously giving
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: me that in a way to kind of dazzle me
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: as though yeah this is you know wow this is
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: this is really a sort of it's a different thing
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: it's not just to do with what it does but
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: also what it looks like and um It was very jarring.
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: At no point previously had I thought that any mobile
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: telephone had actually looked... It was purely a functional thing,
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: but sadly, without any of the aesthetic qualities that things
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: of yesteryear had had.
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: But it was.
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: Just a kind of standout memory. And ever since then,
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: as I say, people seem to think, it doesn't matter
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: what it is, but these very, very sterile sort of
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: flat or angular things with no features, no finesse, that
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: that somehow is beautiful.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: Yes, that's exactly what I was moaning about last time
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: we spoke about the Tesla cars. It's that angular, sort
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: of brutalist, modern. And I hate all of this angular stuff.
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: You see it in architecture also. And it's just so empty.
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: You'll talk about now like a watch that kind of
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: looks good. Everybody who wears these Apple watches, it all
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: looks the same. The only thing that differentiates it is
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: the color. That's it. And it's just a thing on
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: their arm. You know, I remember when I was growing up,
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: there were beautiful watches, all, you know, like my dad
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: had different watches that were lovely. They were just gorgeous.
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: Now it's all this, you know, flat, angular, boxy, square,
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: clinical nonsense. And that's not just with the watches. It's
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: with everything. I think there's a deliberate attempt to make
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: everything look the same. It seems like it.
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, if we're talking about cars, for example,
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: it's not that there's a deliberate attempt to make everything
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: look the same. There's a number of things going on.
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: One is that there's so much consolidation in the manufacture
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: process base that everybody's using you know 15 manufacturers 15
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: brands are all using the same chassis for example i'm
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: exaggerating somewhat but that but that's you get the point
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: but then then of course these days you've got to
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: do everything according to uh how efficiently it travels through
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: the air and uh that means that uh you're running
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: uh computer models to design your cars now and of
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: course they all end up looking the same because they've
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: got a they've got a minimize the the drag and
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: so that that you inevitably end up with the same
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: kind of solutions to every uh every particular problem and
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: so that's that's one of the reasons everything looks the
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: same there's it's not car design is not about style
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: it's about uh um you know how efficiently it's about
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: agenda 2030 basically and and so um I mean, maybe
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: we're starting to see some manufacturers trying to modernize old
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: designs because they realize that people are looking back towards
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: the Citroen 2CV, for example. But, you know, as a
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: general thing, that's a fail because they can sort of
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: hint at some of the design cues that were in
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: the original, but it's still... got this sort of computer
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: generated feel about what they're producing. So we need to
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: go back to a time where there was real artistic
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: merit in what people were designing.
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: But there is a convergence. I mean, a number of
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: my guests talk about this. If you think about transhumanism,
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: for example, that's a convergence. That's to make everybody the same.
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: No females, no men. Design, everything looks the same. When
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: you travel to major cities, they all look the same.
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: Everything is creating everything to be bland with nothing distinctive
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: or unique. And exclusivity becomes public enemy number one. which
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: I find very disheartening, which is precisely... No.
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: Let's just clarify that. It becomes general public enemy number
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: one because the good design is left for the people
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: that can afford it.
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, true.
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: Because you can still buy beautiful watches, but you need
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: to be talking five or six figures to get one.
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: And so, you know, the blandness is for the masses.
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: The elites will, to some degree, maintain some artistic design
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: in what they do.
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: Well, Mike, both my old school clock, which is a clock,
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: it's not a watch, I can't wear it, next to
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: me and the digital time in front of me says
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: that we are running out of time. So let's come
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: in for the landing, Charles.
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: I think my great hope with all of this is
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: that the more it's pushed, the more of a reaction
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: there'll be against it. And I think we see this
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: with everything, doesn't, I mean, how things look uh consideration
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: is really important i think is very very important we
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: talked a lot about some sort of art and beauty
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: and this and the other but i think it needs
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: to be put back into everything and i think people
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: really are seeing that i think there are there are
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: plenty of creators and designers out there who do realize
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: objectively what it is that does please the human eye
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: and what fits with things that are around it on
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: every scale because again you know we've talked about this
• 45:37
  Speaker 3: in terms of landscape being crashed by whether it be
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: sort of gigantic wind turbines or just ugly buildings.
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: There absolutely are.
• 45:47
  Speaker 3: Dimensions, let's say, and properties that conform to something fitting
• 45:53
  Speaker 3: to look at or not. And I think people will
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: continue to react against this in the same way they
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: do against the homogenized sort of ultra processed fake food.
• 46:02
  Speaker 3: And there's a, there's a reaction against that. Everything does
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: have a sort of counterculture of some sort. And whilst
• 46:09
  Speaker 3: that can be, that can be absolutely something that cuts
• 46:12
  Speaker 3: both ways. I think, I think with a lot of
• 46:15
  Speaker 3: this good will come. I really do. So that's what
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: I will, that's what I'll be thinking about. And just
• 46:20
  Speaker 3: in terms of beauty and aesthetics.
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: I'll just add to that, Jerm, a little bit and
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: say that there are YouTube channels out there with people
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: doing exactly that. And I absolutely encourage people to go
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: and find those and take inspiration from them.
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: Just quickly, a quick plug in terms of beauty. I
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: can't forget that pub that you took me to, Charles.
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: What is the name of that? I can't remember.
• 46:45
  Speaker 3: Uh anyway i suppose i've got two weeks think about
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: it because we could stick it in the notes um
• 46:49
  Speaker 3: it was beautiful yeah it's very nice.
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: I just simply cannot forget it the the the everything
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: about it the ambience the way the architecture.
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah yeah yeah anyway this place up on dartmoor is
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: proper sort of coaching in with wood paneling and um
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: and lovely seating proper sort of traditional place with very
• 47:06
  Speaker 3: very nice prints and um sort of uh what you
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: call engravings and whatnot on the wall.
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: It was great. Wasn't it?
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah. That's what things should look like. Mike and Charles,
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: I'll catch up with you next week. And for those
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: listening in three weeks time, get your head around that one.
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: Time is such an amazing thing, isn't it?
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: Cheers guys.