Latest / Conservation Stories / Weathering the Storm: Life, Loss, and Hope After Farm Bankruptcy with Doug Sims

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Weathering the Storm: Life, Loss, and Hope After Farm Bankruptcy with Doug Sims · Conservation Stories

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Foreign and welcome back again to another episode of Conservation Stories. This is your host, Hilary Timmons Sims. And this is a podcast that's brought to you by the Sand Hill Area Research association, otherwise known as Sarah because it's not quite as much of a mouthful. Today I have my favorite person in the whole world with me as a guest, and that is my husband, Doug Sims. And Doug is, and I've been married for about 32 years and we have five kids and we farm for many of that those years. And we are here to talk about bankruptcy. That is part of our history is farm bankruptcy. There's a lot of that struggle happening again in this year, in 2025. And it's a hard time, right. So I asked Doug if he would just start off by giving us a basic timeline of his history in agriculture. My family, by now you've probably listened to the episode of where we had Nick Bergfield come on and interview me so you all could kind of get to know me a little bit better. You kind of know my history and so I'd like for Doug to give you some of his history and farming and then up until the time that we filed for bankruptcy. How's that sound, Doug?
• 1:37
  Speaker B: That sounds good. Thanks. You're, you're one of my favorites also, by the way, and I appreciate you asking me to join you today and be glad to visit with you. I grew up on the farm, Terry county, and so did so did you, Tillery. And our families knew each other from long, long way back. And I wanted to do other things in school, thought about being a lawyer and doing other things. But after a degree and a little bit of grad school, I realized I really want to come back and farm. And so with the help of family, I got started farming and got married a few years later to Tillery Timmons. And then we started our family and had a lot of fun, a lot of good years. And but I was, I farmed for about 20 years in the late 90s. We had some difficult years and started struggling with the economics and eventually by the mid 2000s, I think 06 was our last crop. Tried everything that I could think of to make it work and badly did not want to do anything else in life and couldn't think of any other life than farming that would be worth living or that would be satisfying. That's the way I remember it. And so now fast forward 17, 18 years later, we went through bankruptcy and difficult time, but life is been really wonderful and I really have a great life every day. I Think I just have the best life. I can't imagine anything that I don't already have that I want.
• 3:32
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 3:33
  Speaker B: And it's not been easy, but it's a process that people survive and actually can, can go through the other side and find a lot of wonderful things they can thrive.
• 3:46
  Speaker A: Going backwards a little bit in. We farmed in Terry county, first farmed with family and then farmed on our own. And those were good years. Living in your grandparents house out in the middle of nowhere, almost to Gaines County. Oh yeah, out. Way out in the middle of nowhere.
• 4:07
  Speaker B: The ideal place for me is where there are no humans in sight or sound.
• 4:14
  Speaker A: And this is where you say opposites attract because after we moved into Lubbock I called Doug after about two weeks I was driving on the loop and I was like, now I know why people move to town because it's way more convenient than living 75 miles away from a Walmart.
• 4:30
  Speaker B: And it is nice to run down to Target three minutes from the house and pick up whatever we need.
• 4:36
  Speaker A: Advantages. Yeah, it is easier but it gives you a lot more. I have so much respect for the people that are still there. So much more respect.
• 4:44
  Speaker B: Growing up I didn't want to stay on the farm. I really wanted to do other things and. But then after seeing a little bit of what the, the other side looks like in college I realized, oh, I'm a farm boy. And I also. The part that was really appealing to me was that's what my parents did before me and all the people that I really liked and respected. My grandparents who adored all four, that's what they did. My great grandparents who for the most part I didn't know. As far back as we know, our people were farm people. And I learned in my early 20s why it becomes such a part of a person. The land is so. It's personal and it's home. It becomes who you are and where you belong.
• 5:46
  Speaker A: We were, I feel like kind of that last generation to be born with a lot of identity. You know, you were born into this specific occupation, to this specific place with deep roots. You were a grandson or daughter, you were a daughter or a son, you were a sister or a brother. You almost could have. Your path was almost laid out for you when you were born. And now we're, you know, our society has changed so much and so there's so many questions about who am I and what am I going to do? You know, and for us, you know, I never thought about doing anything else ever. Never. It never. I mean, of course that part of that was my own upbringing, you know, But I could not conceive of doing anything other than being on the farm and living the life that my every. On both sides of my family, everyone, every single woman had lived. And that was, you know, I'm going to have a garden and I'm going to sow and I'm going to raise my kids. And part of that was I'm going to homeschool my kids. And that was just so ingrained in me. I couldn't fathom another way for us. But we hit about what. What year did we move to?
• 7:10
  Speaker B: Oh, three.
• 7:10
  Speaker A: Oh, three, that's right, 2003. We left family land. The land, the house that had been in the family. We were third generation to live in that. In that place. Down from the place that was fourth generation.
• 7:26
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 7:27
  Speaker A: And that was homesteaded there. And we made a move and. Which is not something that you do when you farm. You don't generally do that. Right. You generally stay in the same place.
• 7:38
  Speaker B: Yeah. We were chasing water.
• 7:39
  Speaker A: Chasing water. So we went north. And just side note, before you had maps where you could like go online and locate water, Doug went to the water district. We just have to tell people about your map, please.
• 7:57
  Speaker B: Sure.
• 7:59
  Speaker A: So explain the process of how you figured out where the water was in your map because we literally drove the entire panhandle of Texas.
• 8:09
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 8:10
  Speaker A: Deciding where to go.
• 8:11
  Speaker B: The water districts have maps that show saturated thickness.
• 8:15
  Speaker A: Now you can see it online.
• 8:17
  Speaker B: Yeah, it's all online now. But we had. There was a large map, the size of this table for each county. And we were looking in multiple counties, trying to figure out. We went to some really remote places, by the way, didn't we?
• 8:31
  Speaker A: We did. We did. One place I was like, here, where you would not even need a car, you just need an airplane because you're conveniently 250 miles from anywhere.
• 8:41
  Speaker B: And yeah, so I taped all these maps together. It was like you needed.
• 8:47
  Speaker A: Oh, it's like. It's like an eight by eight.
• 8:49
  Speaker B: Yeah. Marked up and all rolled color coded and color coded and all that. Trying to find, you know, what's the. What's the best place I'm going to figure this. And that is the part of being a farmer that is such. It defines who farmers are. They figure things out. And that's always been the defining characteristic, I think. And so I thought, well, this isn't working and I've made some mistakes and I'm going to figure it out. So, you know, that was just. That's the DNA and And really, I don't want to jump too far ahead, but that's the quality that people who make their living in agriculture for very long, they're not aware, I don't think, of how unique they really are. But yeah, the goal was to find a better place and continue that lifestyle.
• 9:51
  Speaker A: Right.
• 9:52
  Speaker B: And it didn't work out.
• 9:53
  Speaker A: No, it didn't. But we, we did go ahead and move. We've moved a whopping 90 miles north and west. We moved into Lamb county and we found a little house there. And, you know, that was kind of the beginning of a lot of reality, I guess, of where we were. And I remember, really seven years. Really, it started about seven years, I feel like before we filed bankruptcy of the reality that this isn't working. And I can remember asking you if, if you could do any, like, anything, like just, just dream anything, you what, what would you do? And you're like, I would farm. That is why I am farming. Because I, I've already been there. I've already dug on and looked to see if I want to do something else. I don't. I want to farm, you know, And I think probably the reality of where we were headed was probably more. I would think I maybe was embracing it a little more than you were at that time. Like, this isn't. Doesn't. It's not going to work out. And I can remember one time we were at one of the million meetings with bankers, you know, and you had gotten up to leave the room, and he said, I've never seen anyone who keeps records the way Doug does. Never. I've never encountered anyone that knows the depth of the economics of where they really are, you know, And I wonder sometimes, like, if that, you know, that keeps people going a little bit longer, you know what I mean? If they don't really know exactly how bad it is, you know, and we just saw it, you know, and it happened. I feel like the turning point was in Terry county before we left, the year that we, we got hail that year, right before harvest. And I can, I mean, really before that year, we had had. We had had so many good crops and we were doing well. We were on the path of, you know, I remember you saying, we're going to build a house. You make a folder and put your stuff in there because we're going to build a house. And I said, heck no. My mom did that for years. I'm not doing that, you know, but in the. My mind, I'm like, that expectation. You can't help but, because you do See that, you know, to mean that people, some people do make that kind of, that kind of success. And you always think, well, you'll be the one that's there that's doing that, you know. And so when we moved, you know, we had some really good friends that helped us to find a house and then help me to embrace that house, that little country house.
• 12:20
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 12:20
  Speaker A: You know, and accept the reality of where we were, you know, and that this was not a step up, you know, and. But it was. Those years when we moved, going into bankruptcy were extremely difficult.
• 12:38
  Speaker B: They were very stressful and I didn't appreciate enough how hard they were on my family at the time. It was just, it was almost like if, if you, if you give yourself some out some other option, then you're not single minded, you're not fully focused on the goal of making this work. And I think there was some unwillingness on my part to really think about longer term. What's, what's my exit plan?
• 13:17
  Speaker A: Yeah, well, you don't, you know, and part of the problem that people don't understand about ag is there is no easy exit plan. No, there is no. I mean, if we could have ejected seven years earlier, I mean, I can remember us looking at the tax ramifications year after year going, this makes no sense. We can't do this without almost completely losing everything that we've like. So let's keep on trying, you know. Keep on trying, you know, and you're in this cycle of maybe one more year because when you get that one good year, right. I mean it can, it can bail you out.
• 13:53
  Speaker B: You know, about three times we had a good crop and got back in good shape and, and then so I was good at some aspects of farming. There were certain parts of it that I did really well. There were others where in retrospect I realized afterward, oh, I wasn't, I'm not a good mechanic for and you know, other areas that I just wasn't as, wasn't as talented or didn't prepare myself or whatever as, as I.
• 14:27
  Speaker A: Well, the hard thing too about farming is like, you know, everybody has a job in that job. There's things that you're good at and bad at, but you're limited on how many things that you're doing. And when you're farming, oh my goodness, you are doing it all. You are every kind of conceivable part of work. It's mental work and it's physical work of every kind. And you know, I think now even more just the, you know, reality of folks getting into, like, the marketing side of it, you know, and how can we, you know, market our farm? And how can we, you know, let people know who we are and what we're doing? And being involved in organizations that are trying to raise awareness, you know, that's something that we weren't even doing at that time. That's a whole nother added, you know, layer of, you know, concern for people now. But I. I think that the move, in the move, you were really busy, you know, trying to keep us afloat, and we had four kids at that time. And I totally agree the impact on our kids. What I see is that, you know, it impacted their belief in, like, the American dream, I would say, you know, like, if you work hard, if you work hard, it happens, you know, And I. I see them, I see the. How hard it has been for them to come around and start embracing that. That is true, you know, and part of that, I think, comes too from just, you know, our mentality of who we were as a family at that time of, you know, really a lot of black and white. Because part of the reason why we didn't go. Go out sooner or go through bankruptcy sooner is because it was morally. It just seemed morally wrong. Like, this can't be what God has for us to do. And. And how can we possibly even. Do you consider this? You know, so do you remember the conversation that we had with the bankruptcy lawyer talking about that? And he talked about the laws in Texas, and he. He was. He was so precious.
• 16:39
  Speaker B: Yeah. Gary Condra.
• 16:41
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 16:41
  Speaker B: Yeah. Wonderful, wonderful man. He passed away a few years afterward, but he really was kind and compassionate as he helped us work through that process.
• 16:52
  Speaker A: Yeah. And I remember him saying, you know, so many of our, you know, founding fathers of Texas, they came to Texas running from creditors, and they wanted to create a system where if you got into that kind of situation, you didn't have to leave the state. They wanted people to be able to stay. And he's like, the laws are created for you to be able to go through this process and stay. And. And I think, I don't know, maybe it wasn't as impactful for you, but to me, it just put my mind at ease that, like, there are people that, you know, I know and love that have been through this. And I don't. It's not something anybody ever talked about, which makes what we're doing kind of unusual. In fact, Lacey, when I was telling Lacey that we were going to do this, because she had mentioned to me a couple of Months ago about being at a meeting and saying, I've never, never seen so many people so despondent in agriculture. And I asked her, I said, do you think we should, Doug and I should have a podcast and talk about it? And she said, you are the first person I've ever met that can talk about it. There's like no shame attached to it and there's really, there's not for us. And I think because partly because of how we have been able to walk through to the, on the other side of it and, you know, to be able to honestly deal with, with it. And also because the part that's so difficult is how deeply it is ingrained in your identity, which we touched on, you know, earlier.
• 18:29
  Speaker B: It's taken a lot of years. It's not something I would have been willing to talk about five years after or maybe even 10 years after. But I' I've learned a lot since then and I do have perspective. I don't like. There are things about myself I don't like. I don't like the fact that I borrowed money and I will die not having paid it back. Yeah, legally, it's, the debt is canceled.
• 18:56
  Speaker A: Right.
• 18:57
  Speaker B: And I'm grateful for that option. But that's part of what makes farmers really special, is that's part of your, your character. You, you, you believe in a higher standard. You expect the most from yourself and, and probably most people in agriculture are too hard on themselves and not able to give themselves enough, enough slack. When there are failures, and we're human, we're going to fail. Excusing less than 100% effort is something that people of the land do not do. And so figuring out what you can control and what you can't and allowing yourself mistakes isn't something that comes naturally. It's something I had to learn. I'm really grateful for the. And one of the advantages, benefits of going through failure in business is that I've had the opportunity to learn a lot more about myself and to put my finger on some areas in my life where I needed to grow up and I needed to learn how to be more gracious with other people. As I learned how to experience the forgiveness of my own failures toward other people. Learning with my children in particular, how to be more kind and gracious toward them was a real deficiency in my fathering. I love my kids. We have wonderful kids, by the way, and I have a great relationship with all of them. I enjoy them so much. But they, they've been very forgiving. They've been gracious to me and we've learned how to, how to love each other in better ways. And the thing that I really appreciate about people in agriculture, farmers and people who've made their living for any significant time in agriculture is they, they uphold a really, really high standard for themselves and people around them. And they're multi talented as you said. I'm, I don't know, a category of people in our culture that are more hardworking, that are more persistent, that are more resilient in the face of adversity, that are more creative in the way they respond to challenges that have squeezed more out of a nickel than probably anybody in our economy that have innovated and changed so much. Farmers are economists, they're physiologists, they are logistics experts, scientists. They're scientists, they are, they're psychologists. I work with a lot of lawyers now. I was thinking about this yesterday and I like lawyers much better than I realized I did before this career change. There are actually some wonderful one for people in the legal profession. I would put farmers that I've known against lawyers in terms of their versatility and their ability to find solutions to difficult problems any day. I think that they excel. And that's the thing I really love about. I was so blessed to have been a part of that, part of that profession for a lot of years. And it's still in my heart. I dream almost every night about farming. I was dreaming last night, it seemed like hours and hours. I was trying to.
• 23:20
  Speaker A: And let's talk about how long it's been since we've been out to check water. Yeah.
• 23:24
  Speaker B: Oh yeah. So the recurring dream is that there's an irrigation system I forgot about somewhere and it's been running untended to for months or sometimes years. And I suddenly remember and I go out to feel the dread in my heart thinking what is going to happen here? Is the landlord going to murder me? Yeah, it's. That's the recurring nightmare. But most of the dreams are, you know, they're wonderful. They're like just reliving the great things that the farm life gave me. And so last night I was plowing and fertilizing peanuts and my neighbors all around me were plowing up their cotton. They were going a different route. And I was thinking, wait, what do they know that I don't know? They're smart. And so the appreciation that I have for our agricultural producers are, is really, really extremely high.
• 24:22
  Speaker A: Well, you know, when you talk about, you know, leaving your debt unpaid, what, what most people don't understand about farming is okay. People think farmers are stressed because of the weather. And yes, mainly you're stressed because the amount of money it takes to operate a farm is astronomical. And every year you put everything on the line that not only will you be able to pay your land debt and your equipment debt and all your chemical debts and everything for inputs and have something left over to live on. And when you go through, when you go through bankruptcy, you're leaving a substantial amount of debt, you know, and a lot of farmers, you know, a lot of their debt is backed by the U.S. government, you know, and they're part of that system that of that backs farm notes for, you know, for farmers. And part of our struggle, right, was in that system. We. We just kind of got stuck in this loop of why did you move? That's kind of strange. And every year, you know, your operating note doesn't come when it should. It comes later and later and later. And I think that last year our operating note was August.
• 25:41
  Speaker B: Yeah, that was the 2006 crop. It was as I remember it. It may not be fully accurate, but I think it was mid June. And I made the decision not to plant until I knew for sure that I was going to get a loan. So it was. And we were in Lamb county, too far north to be planting cotton and you know, the 10th or 12th of June, but with some years, it works. That year we had a wet, cool fall, not nearly enough heat units to mature the crop. And that was the. The last nail in the coffin. You know, that was really not there. There wasn't the option to try go in it again. So it was nice in some ways. There weren't any other options.
• 26:33
  Speaker A: There weren't. I mean, and that, yeah, that's the truth is that we just, we didn't have any choice at that point. You know, out here on the Texas plains, water is everything. And there's a resource that's as vital as it is fragile. Our playa lakes. These lakes are nature's reservoir, catching rainwater to recharge our aquifer and provide lifelines for wildlife. But now they need our help. In collaboration with the Texas Fly Lakes Conservation Initiative and the Cargill Global Water Challenge, Sarah has started the Our Legacy Is Tomorrow's Water initiative to inspire and work with landowners to restore and protect our playa lakes. Each playa we save helps secure a sustainable water future for the generations that will be coming after us. Whether it's improving soil health, restoring habitats, or recharging groundwater, we are committed to making a Difference. Together, we can build a legacy that we can all be proud of. To learn how, how you can join in, visit the Playa Lakes Restoration Initiative page on the SARA website. Let's keep Texas water flowing strong for the future. Visit sara-conservation.com misconceptions, misconceptions about bankruptcy. And I remember before we went through bankruptcy, hearing someone, you know, talk about how, oh, that farmer went through bankruptcy, and they're, they're, they live in this huge house in town and they just live there for free.
• 28:19
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 28:20
  Speaker A: And, you know, and I was like, that is not how that works. But that's, that was the con. That was the, you know, that's what they conceived of that, you know, being, is that they were able to get all this debt written off to the government or to some, you know, local companies or whatever, wherever they owed money.
• 28:38
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 28:39
  Speaker A: And come away with a house for free.
• 28:42
  Speaker B: Right.
• 28:43
  Speaker A: Right. No, does not work that way.
• 28:45
  Speaker B: No, no. You don't go from farm bankruptcy to a life of wealth and privilege. It's not, not the way it works. In my experience, it is hard, you know, it's, it's not, not desirable. And to my knowledge, farmers that go through bankruptcy, it's, it's a last resort.
• 29:06
  Speaker A: And you know who I hope is listening to this is, you know, people that need to understand a little bit more about what that's like for people in agriculture that have no connection to agriculture, but also the people that are looking that in the face, you know, right now. And, you know, I don't think that you or I would say, oh, we have a guidebook for you on how to do this and not feel like crap when you're going through it. It's not there. It's not there. There is no, you know, formula for success in managing it, you know, but it is so different because especially when you. For us, we did not have family land involved. Right. We didn't have generational land.
• 29:55
  Speaker B: Right.
• 29:55
  Speaker A: Involved. And so many people have generational land. Are you going to be the one you're five, six generations in, and you're the one that's going to screw it all up for all your ancestors and all the generations that are going to come before you? In what other job do you have that kind of pressure?
• 30:15
  Speaker B: Yeah. There's so much at stake, and I think that people in the broader culture don't understand how much stress farmers go through every year, figuring every year is a small miracle, figuring out how do we transition from one crop to the next, how do we make it work one More year again. I don't want to get too far ahead, but what I learned about farmers is that anybody who's made their living for very long in agriculture, once they get through and that transition and have to find something else to do for a living, they're going to succeed.
• 30:54
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 30:54
  Speaker B: Are well prepared for what comes afterward.
• 30:57
  Speaker A: I think that's true in that transition. We'll talk about that. Because it was Friday, it was pert. Near impossible to find job after that.
• 31:05
  Speaker B: And 75 resumes I sent out to applications to different places. You can tell this story better than I can.
• 31:16
  Speaker A: Jibos. Jibos could not even get a job at GB's. Not even interested. Headquarters went to the headquarters, everything, you know, trying to find a job. And I about the same time went to jibos and said, I need X amount of, you know, square feet of chicken wire. And he goes, oh, well, we only sell it by the length. And I was like, oh, my gosh. And I called you and said, I think you are overqualified. You can do simple math.
• 31:45
  Speaker B: I was relieved. I realized, oh, the rejection should not be taken personally. You got to get a ton of them. And there's not a lot of. Of forethought or knowledge into the. Into many of those rejections. Yeah. So, yeah, when I realized the clerk there, and he was probably a wonderful guy, but he didn't. He hadn't yet learned how to calculate square footage, I thought, yeah, I might be able to make it doing something else for a living.
• 32:16
  Speaker A: Exactly. Exactly.
• 32:17
  Speaker B: God was gracious through that time also. He. He provided for us.
• 32:24
  Speaker A: Oh my.
• 32:25
  Speaker B: In miraculous ways. I never know. So many so times. We had no idea how we were going to make ends meet those few months after the bankruptcy, before and after.
• 32:37
  Speaker A: And now I'm good. Now I'm going to cry when I think about the people.
• 32:40
  Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
• 32:41
  Speaker A: And shout out to Buster a dare. I mean, not to just. He was so good to us during that time.
• 32:47
  Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
• 32:48
  Speaker A: And not just him, but so many other people that we had for several years when we were doing well, we had created a scholarship type program where we would give money to students that were in school. And we requested of them when they. When you are in a good place and you can, you know, do this yourself, then take what we've given you.
• 33:20
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 33:20
  Speaker A: And turn that around. Give it to somebody else.
• 33:22
  Speaker B: Pass it on down.
• 33:23
  Speaker A: Pass it on down.
• 33:24
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 33:24
  Speaker A: And I remember that Christmas, one of those. One of those students mailed us a check.
• 33:32
  Speaker B: We had a. We had our own. Well lived in the country and the, the pump went out and that's an expensive repair. My family had no water and you. And yeah, we did not have the money to fix it. Several thousand dollars. One of those students that we had supported years ago heard about, he's a relative, heard about the difficulties we were in and sent a check and it was the amount that we needed to get the well fixed.
• 34:06
  Speaker A: You know, I can remember when the well went out because I was sitting on the front porch and telling God that's it, that's it. I cannot handle one more thing. Not one more thing. And one of the kids came out and said, mom, we don't have any water. And it was like he said, oh really? Well show you. Which is a whole nother, you know, topic of how things like this impact faith that is based on I, I do A and B and then God.
• 34:38
  Speaker B: Gives me C performance. Yeah, yeah.
• 34:41
  Speaker A: You know, it just, it rocked the foundation. Right.
• 34:44
  Speaker B: So when I came back to the farm, I wasn't sure where I stood with God and wasn't. I had some concerns and doubts. After spending a few years on the land, God revealed himself to me in ways that I hadn't expected. And you know, my faith was strong. It returned. And being self made and self reliant and all those things, I had undeveloped understanding of who God is and going through the helplessness for an extended period of time where I really wasn't able to provide for my family very well. And seeing how God did step in and there were so many people. There were just. I won't even start naming.
• 35:40
  Speaker A: No, but I mean, you know, I mean just my parents, you know, would.
• 35:45
  Speaker B: Slaughter father in law.
• 35:46
  Speaker A: Yeah. Would slaughter a cow.
• 35:48
  Speaker B: Incredibly generous.
• 35:49
  Speaker A: Yeah. Bring us a freezer and fill it full of beef. And my sister in law. Your. One of your sisters would bring the kids stuff from the discount grocery store and it was like canned biscuits and treats and, and I get so tickled now because my daughter, our daughter called us not long ago, called me and said I get beans and rice now.
• 36:11
  Speaker B: Our kids got so sick of beans and rice.
• 36:13
  Speaker A: Not eat beans and rice forever.
• 36:15
  Speaker B: They were so disgusting. Yeah, beans and rice.
• 36:18
  Speaker A: And I can remember sitting down and going, okay, this is how much money we have for groceries. So everyone has 25 cents for breakfast. What can I buy for 25 cents to feed people? And you know, fortunately groceries were a lot cheaper then, you know and. But yeah, it was an interesting time such so. And not something I ever. I was not ready. I mean I think I, you know, knew because I remember telling you when we moved, I just had a feeling, this is not the end. Like, this isn't where we're gonna land. Like this is. And you were like, no, yeah, this is it. Because it's. Because your motto was like, don't change anything ever. And mine is like, oh, this furniture's been in this position for six months. Let's move around. You know? And so I was like, no, I just don't feel like this is it for us, you know, and we were there, and we had a couple of different pieces of land that we. That we owned. And we. What you do in bankruptcy, right, is you. You can bring some debt through with you.
• 37:18
  Speaker B: Some assets.
• 37:19
  Speaker A: Yeah. Debt on that. You can. So you don't have to write. Yes. You know, and so that the debt on that land came through with us through bankruptcy, and we eventually, you know, sold part of it. And, you know, that helped us to kind of get back on our feet and that kind of stuff. But we did. Eventually. We lived there. You. You will talk about what you wound up doing.
• 37:44
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 37:44
  Speaker A: Just so people will know, I had.
• 37:46
  Speaker B: A young friend who had looked around and decided to become a landman. And I didn't know what a landman was, but as I was looking around, I realized there actually may be some compatibility with the kind of things I've done in the past, the kind of things I enjoy, and the landman.
• 38:08
  Speaker A: And for people who don't know what.
• 38:10
  Speaker B: A landman is, a landman is. Is not the guy with the bag over his head being abused by the cartel. That is not what a landman does.
• 38:21
  Speaker A: Nothing. If. Now, if he was in front of a computer with a spreadsheet and a bag over his head, maybe.
• 38:27
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. So energy companies, and particularly in the past, oil and gas companies, employ landman to research title and negotiate deals with mineral and landowners. The geologists typically determine what locations they feel like have promise. And then the landmen go out research ownership. Typically, minerals and minerals in a particular tract of land are owned by a large number of people. And it takes a lot of time to sort through the deed history to figure out who the current owners are. So it's geeky research and spreadsheet stuff, but it's also deal making, negotiating, lease acquisition, and so on. It does stretch a lot of different skills. And anyway, I thought, give it a try. See. See if that'll work. So I finally got accepted to this weekend land school in Oklahoma City, and that was the best option. I went there and learned, you know, as much as you can learn in a Weekend. And then after a few weeks, I was hired as a trainee in a brand new office that had just set up in McAllister, Oklahoma. Southeast Oklahoma. Never been to southeast Oklahoma.
• 40:03
  Speaker A: We would call that the town with no teeth.
• 40:07
  Speaker B: I loved McAllister. I thought, this is an awesome place. It rained there, it was beautiful.
• 40:12
  Speaker A: But I will say that I can remember pulling up there with the kids and thinking, there's so many trees. How would you know if somebody's trying to sneak up on you and I'll be like, trees?
• 40:23
  Speaker B: It was funny. So the first day I was there, I was the second person in this brand new office. That's how I didn't know at the time. That's how the oil and gas business works. You get a new prospect. By the end of that week, there were 40 landmen working out of that office. I mean, I was helping set up tables and eventually I got a title job. And the first day the boss asked me what I'd done all day and I tried to explain and he said, you're going to have to get with it, buddy. So it really was. But I'm grateful had the opportunity. Jack Wilkins was his name. He actually is a wonderful guy. I don't know if he's still in the business, but Jack decided to be patient and teach me how to do the job. And I did enjoy it. The history was fascinating. The history of land ownership over 100 years.
• 41:20
  Speaker A: And what was happening at that time, which was the Barnett Shell boom. And what was happening at that time was so fascinating too. In Oklahoma, you know, people were literally shooing chickens off the table and signing leases and handing over checks and people.
• 41:34
  Speaker B: That were had any production on their land, new technology. So George Mitchell in the 1990s figured out how to frack, how to. How to apply hydraulic fracking and horizontal drilling. And vast new resources of hydrocarbons, oil and gas were suddenly producible and economically. So Fort Worth was the big boom, the Barnett Shale in Fort Worth. But the southeast Oklahoma play that we were working was related. It was a cousin. It was the Woodford Shale. And so there's an explosion of energy with lots of companies competing to get space for drilling. And we were, I was just part of that process.
• 42:21
  Speaker A: And that, you know, that transition was not any easier than the transition out. You know, it was. You were older than everybody else, working out in a culture that you had not worked in before, in some ways, carry over some carryover from oil and ag. There's a lot of, there's a lot of that Same deep characteristics of hard work and creativity and, you know, but. But at the time of the. Of the boom, there were so many people that were just like, if you were a body breathing, you were going to be a landman people. One guy would be a police officer one day, landman the next.
• 42:57
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 42:58
  Speaker A: You know, and. And your. Your need to do it perfectly and not make a mistake, which is what has built the company that we have now. But was as annoying as heck to me. And I had zero capacity for any compassion, you know, for you at the time. Because I was 90 miles from my family, and where we moved was a great place to be from and a hard place to move to. And I suddenly had what people had experienced in my hometown growing up when they moved in. I was experiencing what it is like not to have three generations in the cemetery.
• 43:42
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 43:42
  Speaker A: And. And everybody's related and they're on their. They're in their path, you know, and you're just not in there in their path, you know, but those were hard times. Were hard.
• 43:55
  Speaker B: That was on the road away from home for two weeks, home on the weekend. And I really.
• 44:03
  Speaker A: Nine hours away.
• 44:04
  Speaker B: Connect or appreciate what. How hard life was for you and the kids while I was gone. I lived in motel rooms. It wasn't glamorous, but I lived in motel rooms and ate at restaurants. It was all compensated. And I worked hard and was determined to be successful. And so it wasn't easy in that sense, but I tried not to think a lot of times about, okay, what's going on at home.
• 44:33
  Speaker A: Yes, I know.
• 44:34
  Speaker B: And it was pretty bad, which was shocking.
• 44:37
  Speaker A: That was what was shocking, I think, you know, because we had gone from a family that was together 24 7. We were farming and homeschooling.
• 44:47
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 44:47
  Speaker A: We were never, ever not together. And then it was just change overnight. And the stress of where you were was all you could handle and have never, up until that time, never had and done anything other than raise my kids, shout out to working moms. I had no way to comprehend what it was like for you. And I mean, I just. I'm so sorry that I didn't have compassion for what you were going through, but I was so focused on what was going on with us, you know, And I think part of that, if there is a lesson to be learned that other people can take from us is, you know, I don't know how you do it, but you got to remember you're still on the same team.
• 45:35
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 45:36
  Speaker A: You know, and it just felt like for. And I think we were in that position for several years.
• 45:42
  Speaker B: Yeah, it was hard. It stretched. Stressed the marriage. It stressed my belief in myself. It stressed our strained. Our children's relationships with us. I think the whole family just was traumatized by the change. It wasn't easy.
• 46:04
  Speaker A: And, you know, I think part of it, you know, our society was just entering. And maybe even not just society as a whole, but in particular, our particular culture that we were in was not interested in helping people emotionally or the word trauma was not, you know, it's a word that people use now that no one was ever using that word. And, you know, we were going to a counselor that was, you know, maybe not as helpful and at times, you know, and, I mean, I think now there's a lot more available to people than there was then.
• 46:46
  Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah, that's true. And we didn't know how to. How do you do this? We had never done it before.
• 46:51
  Speaker A: Well, even, you know, even. I mean, I don't think that necessarily we had a bad counselor. I think we didn't know how to. We didn't know how to participate in that because we don't have any, you know, there was no frame of reference, really, for it, you know, And I know in my world growing up, there was no such thing as, you know, mental health. You just. You just didn't talk about it was sin or it was not sin. Those are the two. The two things happening to you at any given time, sin or not sin. So there just was no, you know, and this is not a religious podcast, so I don't want to trigger anybody that's got any religious drama, but there was a lot of changes for us during that time. And, you know, you mentioned a while ago, like, I think probably through the bankruptcy, you came out more identifying with your faith, and it took a few more years for me to get to that position.
• 47:45
  Speaker B: Yeah, I. I felt so helpless and dependent. I felt closer to God. I think that relationship was more precious to me during those years than it ever had been. And just God revealed himself to me in ways that were more real. And so I wouldn't take anything for that experience. I wouldn't. There's so many good things. I wouldn't want anybody, myself included, to go through the process, but so many great things that I treasure now. And I wouldn't. I wouldn't take. I wouldn't take anything.
• 48:27
  Speaker A: No, I completely agree with that. Like, you just don't wish it on your worst enemy, you know, But I remember, you know, recognizing now that, you know, I was suicidal and, like, man, it would be like, my kids are the thing that kept me alive, you know, when I think about it now, and, you know, I just encouraged people to get help, you know, like, there is so much more available. And the people that I even went to had no. There's no frame of reference for the suffering that we were going through, because, you know, it was like, you. You have to put all your suffering on this scale of. Well, there's people that are suffering worse than you. So.
• 49:07
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 49:08
  Speaker A: You know, like, you need to suck it up and just be grateful, you know?
• 49:11
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 49:12
  Speaker A: And there's just. It's so much more nuanced. Suffering is such. More. So much more nuanced than that. Like every other problem that we deal with, there's just so much more nuance, and. And there's so many things available. And I hope that people that are listening, that are looking in the face of the things that we walked through, will, you know, take advantage of the opportunity to maybe resolve things quicker than we did, you know.
• 49:43
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 49:43
  Speaker A: Have that opportunity to, like, really, you know, because part of it is really just embracing the suck.
• 49:51
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 49:51
  Speaker A: You know. Of it.
• 49:53
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 49:53
  Speaker A: You know.
• 49:54
  Speaker B: Yeah. And my experience with counseling was I don't remember any particular things that we worked on. I had a lot of misconceptions, but just. And I only had a few sessions, but having somebody I could just talk to and who could tell me, you don't have very good perspective on this problem just helped a lot. I went in feeling like I can barely breathe, and through the process feeling like, okay, I know the next 20 steps I need to take. I know exactly what I need to do next. And just figuring out. I can't fix everything at once, but there are specific things that need attention, and I can find satisfaction in doing those things and. And release the things I can't control.
• 50:51
  Speaker A: Yeah. And, you know, I will say I remember when we first started discussing bankruptcy, and I mean, that, to me, that was. That was like a. I can't agree to do this if you can't agree to go get some help to get through it, because I didn't. You know, I didn't want to lose you in the midst of it, you know, And, I mean, that's a. And that's a legitimate fear, you know, and the suicide rate among farmers is. Is really high. I mean, compared to just them, what those statistics are. But I've seen them, and it's just been so shocked at what that is, you know, and. And we have lost. We've lost people that we Know, and people that we've loved in, in farming, you know.
• 51:36
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 51:36
  Speaker A: Through that. And we've had friends that have lost, you know, their family, close family. And so, you know, that was a concern for, for me, you know, especially since that was something that I was thinking about, you know, projecting that onto you. But I think that part of that trauma is of going through those times has, has made us more aware. I mean, like, we are more aware of the people around us, more aware of who they are and people suffering. And we, we changed enough for us to be able to bring a son into our home who we could not parent in any way. Like we parented our other kids.
• 52:29
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 52:30
  Speaker A: And I think that that's a testament. Like I do, I do believe if we had, God had not like come in and, and said, you can change and, and sometimes, you know, part of that change is good and part of it's bad, but you can, you can change and it's okay for you to change and it's okay, you know, you're gonna be okay on the other side of it. And anybody before you or behind you that was in this position would probably, you have to do the same thing that you've done, you know.
• 53:03
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 53:04
  Speaker A: And it's okay.
• 53:07
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 53:07
  Speaker A: You know, but it's okay to also be able to say we went through bankruptcy and part of it was our own fault. We weren't living how on the hog by any means. But it wasn't about our personal spending, but we made business mistakes and, and we also encountered a lot of things we had no control over.
• 53:30
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 53:32
  Speaker A: And so it's okay. And we are on the other side of it many years later. How many years?
• 53:40
  Speaker B: 2006-25 is 19 years this summer.
• 53:47
  Speaker A: Wow.
• 53:47
  Speaker B: Yeah. 07. So 18.
• 53:50
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 53:51
  Speaker B: But yeah. The people with the resilience to make a living in agriculture for year after year after year have the tools and have the ability to find the tools. They have the resourcefulness to negotiate the hardships of business failure. They really do. And they're going to, if they can, if they can make do in agriculture for any length of time, they're going to do very well in the economy. In the broader economy, people who farm don't appreciate, they don't have good perspective on how incredibly gifted, talented and productive they are.
• 54:46
  Speaker A: The value that they can bring to other industries is. I think it's something we for sure were not aware of. And I think, you know, that's. There is life on the other side of it, but it is the reality of facing that you do have to. Your identity will shift. I remember when we decided to move into Lubbock, I clearly remember thinking, who will I be if I don't live in the country? That's the last of it. That's it. I mean, like, I've lost this huge chunk of, like, I'm. Been a farmer, farmer's wife. Like that. What now? Like, I'm going to lose, you know, and the reality of how ridiculous it was that.
• 55:26
  Speaker B: That.
• 55:26
  Speaker A: That is what. That that was part of who I was.
• 55:29
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 55:30
  Speaker A: You know, like, I can remember just thinking, my goodness, this is silly. Is there. There has to be something beyond what I do and where I live that's so much more fundamental as a foundation. Because those things are. They can change in a moment, and you just. You just don't think that they will because there's. When you're farming, you're. It's so deeply rooted.
• 55:51
  Speaker B: Yeah. One of the things that I learned during those years was to appreciate people.
• 55:57
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 55:57
  Speaker B: And to understand the unique qualities of every person in my life and to take enough time, which wasn't a luxury we had in farming. Take enough time to do that. And so the qualities that I saw in Tillery Timmons all those years ago and realized, oh, this is the only person I really have ever wanted to be married to. I knew that the depth of character and the other qualities that were so appealing, I knew that she would prevail, whatever the challenges were in life, and that you would be there with me and you would figure out how to make it work. And of course you did. It wasn't easy. But discovering that strength in you, seeing that strength in you manifested, was such a source of encouragement to me, although it was really hard. And the other thing is that I'm appreciative of the remarkable value of the individuals around me. And so we've worked with dozens, hundreds, probably of people, landmen, through the years. And I have an obligation. When someone comes into my life, crosses my path, understand that this person was made by God in his image and was put here for a purpose. And my awareness of them means that there's an opportunity and responsibility, and I can't just walk away from it. I can't ignore it. So that's a gift that. That God gave me. Through the process, there's just so many. So many things. And some of those things I think we acquire naturally, regardless of career change. But career change puts it in hyperdrive. It really does force people to grow and to discover qualities in themselves that they did not Understand they weren't aware of before. So thanks for sticking with me.
• 58:11
  Speaker A: Thank you. Thank you. So I'm glad we did. I just didn't know for sure if we. We would make it or not, but we did. Here we are.
• 58:20
  Speaker B: All these. Life is really wonderful.
• 58:22
  Speaker A: Yeah, it is. It's. It's. It's good now. And not that there's, you know, it's not perfect, but certainly can I story so Joseph, people will have. If you, if you haven't listened to podcasts where Nick interviews me, you should definitely do that so you'll know. Joseph is our son that we adopted from China when he was 12, and he is graduating from high school this year.
• 58:46
  Speaker B: He's 20 now.
• 58:47
  Speaker A: We held him back three semesters. That's why he's graduating from high school now, because he did not know English, except some words that we can't say on air. Knew those very well.
• 58:57
  Speaker B: Some foul language in English. But he's gone through a lot. He's entertained us endlessly. He's so, so funny. I walked into the kitchen the other day a few weeks ago one morning, and Joseph was there making breakfast. I was whistling something and Joseph, he's still got a lot of Chinese and I think he kind of expresses it.
• 59:22
  Speaker A: He makes the most of it.
• 59:24
  Speaker B: A little thick at times.
• 59:25
  Speaker A: Yes. He makes the most of being bilingual.
• 59:27
  Speaker B: So I was whistling. I was happy that morning. And Joseph said, dad, why are you happy? You're so old.
• 59:37
  Speaker A: We are definitely a lot older than his peers, parents for sure.
• 59:42
  Speaker B: So, yeah, I laugh about that.
• 59:44
  Speaker A: Yeah, he's missed a huge gift, but there's been a lot of gifts along the way and sometimes it's just hard to see them. But anyway, thanks, Doug, and thanks, friends, for listening. I. I hope that if you, you know, people that are going through what we've been through, you'll share the podcast. And I hope that it, it's encouraging and that people were able to maybe learn some lessons from, from us or take away that you're going to make it and be on the other side. So we appreciate you listening and I hope that you will share and like our podcast because it helps us so much to keep doing the things that we're doing. And we will see you again on another episode, Conservation Stories.