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The Way Jesus Sees You · Red Couch Theology

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Hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of the Red Couch
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Theology podcast. Hey, this week we have a guest
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and not so much of A guest. Angela Dunn, who's actually
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hosted the show in the past, joins us because she brought the
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message on Sunday. And she talks about not only her
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own journey, but also the journey of these first followers
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of Jesus, Jesus, and how he has this unique ability to meet us
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right where we are and call us out into the things that he made
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us for. And so if you want to hear a
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voice of Jesus calling you, or maybe you don't believe that
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he's going to do that or can do that, or that he sees you in
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that way, maybe this episode is for you.
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Let's dive right in. It's 11:00.
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We're going live and I'm off the frame and that's OK.
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Hello everyone. If it is, welcome to the Right
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Couch Theology podcast. What do you guys think about
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what kind of glasses should Alex get?
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Oh. Yeah, that's the question.
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Maybe we. Should maybe we should
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acknowledge the guest on our show first?
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Total linen glasses. It's not.
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She's not really a guest. She's hosted the show.
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I don't think you can be called a guest if you've hosted.
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Angela Dunn is with us today because she brought the sermon
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on Sunday and now we should talk about Alex's glasses.
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Well, I think I'm just going to let the church decide.
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We're just going to have like a morning.
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We should have a vote so Teresa's going to get all over
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this. We need some AI generated images
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with Alex in like all different kinds of.
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Spectacles. The giant ones.
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Yeah, the black, like the heavy black ones like the detail, or
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maybe because it's only my left eye that they said is bothered
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by the computer screen. Maybe I'll get a monocle.
1:49
Yes, yes, a monocle. And then even more.
1:52
You need a pipe and a monocle. Can you wear one of those hats
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like Sherlock Holmes? Yes, yeah, I can.
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I actually have one. Really.
2:01
I have it from a fancy dress costume.
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Wow. All right.
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Halloween costume. So I have a deerstalker.
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I could wear a coat that's very Sherlock Holmesy, and then I
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could just. Do you also play the violin?
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I'm just. Listening, I play the cello OK.
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That's right, I remember those four notes you played.
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Yeah, Alex plays the cello cellist.
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He is. He's officially a cellist 'cause
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he played jazz in public. Yes, as.
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My first performance. Poorly, he played two notes on
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the cello. Poorly I.
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Thought they were quite good. What do you know about the
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cello? You're playing the cello.
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I don't know, actually, I, I could be wrong.
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Maybe it was profound. So why don't you start the
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actual show while I go fix the focus on the camera 'cause I
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can't handle it. I'm Yeah.
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OK, ready to go. Go.
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Well, Angela, welcome to this this den of crazy.
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Thank you for preaching on Sunday.
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You did a great job. Thanks.
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And I know you got a lot of great feedback.
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So that's always fun, isn't it? It is as much as you can't live
3:12
on that, yes, eventually get tired of it, yes.
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Do you? Yeah.
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I mean, you do it the most. So yeah, you definitely get
3:19
like, yeah, I'm not sure that means anything, especially when
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people are like, that was a great sermon.
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I loved that weird story you told.
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You're like, OK, yeah, let's see where the transformative power
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of that does suck. Before we get too excited.
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I do think a great question to ask people is when they say
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something like that is like, oh really?
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What part of you it do you think moved you closer to Jesus?
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Oh, that is a good. That's that is that's.
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A good way to shame people really fast.
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Right. Well, it's a good good like way
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to nudge them to think about that as they go away.
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Like, yes, it might give them some sense of like, but you
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know, just I, I think it just. Digging a little invites them to
4:02
dig a little deeper, yeah. Yeah, 'cause it's very it's,
4:04
it's easy to you. Know to gush, Yeah.
4:07
Yeah, totally. But yeah, but I think, well,
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then there are there are gushers and then there are non gushers.
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Sure, right. So yeah, yeah.
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What are you gonna do? Yeah, I mean, and your husband
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JD is definitely one who's like, that was amazing.
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And he says that to me regularly.
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So he must definitely have said it to you.
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He did thank. Goodness, good.
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Job for him, he did, yeah, he sweat a lot of it with me as
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well. Yeah, yeah, He had, he had some
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investment in. Is that what?
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It was just a just a just a tad bit right around Monday, the
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Monday before between, I don't know, 8:00 PM and 2:00 AM.
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He had a real, some real, but he tapped out around 1.
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He was like, are we are we good? And I'm like, I'm good.
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You can go to bed. But I mean, what a great guy to
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be able to sacrifice sleep to, you know, support, be present.
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I love it. So you're.
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A good guy. Yes, I I would say that my wife
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regularly says to me, at least around like me preaching, she
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says she's very sweet. She always says, I always think
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you're good. So of course that's, you know,
5:21
kind of she does always say whenever people come up to her
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and say, oh man, you're Alec, you're your husband has such a
5:28
great accent. She's like, I feel like I don't
5:31
notice. So I feel like there was no
5:35
point marrying someone with an accent.
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So it's just, it's just what you sound like She's.
5:41
Like, not really sure. Right.
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Whatever. Yeah, sure he does to you,
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right? Yeah, so.
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She's like, what accent did you? There's an accent.
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You heard an accent. Wait, isn't he American?
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Right, But. Enjoy the interesting.
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To hear those responses of the people closest to you because
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they, they usually, I think, you know, we, we might all say very
6:02
sweet, but they're certainly not going to let you get too big
6:05
headed. Oh.
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Absolutely. Not going to keep you grounded.
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Yes. Well.
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Yeah. So you, you're preach is part of
6:13
this John series and you are assigned to this passage.
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How did that feel being assigned a text?
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Because like you've done a decent chunk of teaching
6:22
actually in in various different environments, which you
6:24
mentioned briefly on Sunday and Sisterhood and mops groups and
6:30
and even done some public speaking teaching training for
6:33
folks. But have you ever been assigned
6:36
a text like that before? No, not one that that was that
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long. And so that was challenging.
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It was a little intimidating at first just to go wow there.
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There's a lot to cover. I I would say I did tell
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everyone preaching that you don't have to cover every verse.
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Yes, you did, and Aaron actually reminded me of.
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I did, and she decided she wanted to, yeah.
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Right. Oh.
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Yeah, yeah. I'm just saying yeah, like the
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the lots. Of both him and I trying to make
7:04
sure that we're not in trouble. Yeah, right.
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Oh, total. Lots of military on you, not on
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us. Right.
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Exactly. Well.
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Whenever I complain about the text he assigns, he's always
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saying like I did say this, right?
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
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Well, and it was actually, there is a bit of comfort in having an
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assigned text it took out. You know, it's like when you go
7:25
on the cereal aisle, there's way too many choices.
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Yeah, if there was only three choices or one choice or they
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said you're eating this, you know, like it just takes the
7:35
stress out, that was great. I hate preaching at another
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church where they just like preach on what you want.
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Oh yeah. I'm like, well, no, I want to
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know what you guys are in the middle of learning like because
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I mean, I could think I'm going to preach on this and find out
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someone spoke on it like 2 weeks before or like, can't you let me
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be part of what God is doing in amongst you rather than just
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being this outside voice? So.
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So I much prefer the assigned text in that respect.
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Yeah, I get that. So, so you, you haven't just
8:08
gone in and said give me tithing.
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I want tithing like you. Know I I.
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Want to preach on tithing? I would.
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Actually happily preach on tithing in a church that I
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didn't pastor. It's great.
8:21
It's a lot easier to burn relationships.
8:24
Churches. You guys aren't giving enough.
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I love that. Yeah, that's great.
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Yeah, we it, it should be like this circuit where like once a
8:34
year every pastor rotates pitches on pat on tithing and
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then switches back. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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That's a. Good idea.
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Yeah, that's good there. We go, you solved the system.
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Yeah. So at the series overview, Alex,
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you sort of started this series with this.
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Well, we're going through the book of John.
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So like that's the premise of the, but there's sort of a
8:56
nuanced approach to the to the book.
8:58
I think so. In the sense that this pass
9:03
through the book of John, we're focusing on these individual
9:07
encounters that Jesus has with with people.
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And it's not like going to be a hard fast rule.
9:11
We're still just going through the book, but it's like John
9:16
goes to the most effort to describe Jesus interaction with
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individuals, like sort of hyper focused on that.
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But the interesting thing about how it's unfolded and the text
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that Angela was able to preach Sunday is that so far you set
9:33
that up, but it actually hasn't happened yet until her text.
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So and then you got multiple all up front like real quick.
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So you were able to actually start to illustrate Jesus's
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encounter with the one, which is part of what you were describing
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is this uniqueness. So Angela, would you just give
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us a 30,000 foot view? Let's say someone wasn't there
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on Sunday. Give us sort of a 30,000 foot
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view of the text that you were assigned and like some of the
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high points that you really wanted people to remember.
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Yeah, I'm, I mean, I think that I want, I the biggest thing I
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want them to remember is that he's a very personal God.
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You are very different than the person next to you.
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And he recognizes that. And he not only recognizes that
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he created you and he loves that about you.
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And so being able to say, yes, like he and he seeks you out, he
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seeks you out. Like he he not only seeks you
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out, but he meet you in that intimacy right where you are.
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So it it's not a A1 size fits all.
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He's he's not like, you know, he's not knocking on doors to,
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you know, sell roofing. You know, he he's he's coming
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because there's something that he's asking and engaging with
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you. And so, and that is for me,
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blows every other thought of of idols, of other gods out of the
11:03
water. It gives me, for me, it gives me
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no other choice really, because he is that good and sees that
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intimately and cares that much. And I think that's why like I
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like she's setting up the whole, like he cares deeply.
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Like setting that up the previous weeks like that was
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huge for me, even leading up to just a few days before.
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I. Preached is is honing in on.
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Yeah, I think certainly the passage that you had, especially
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with Nathaniel Story, there's a deep personal nature.
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Do it like that. That one always stands out to me
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and part of the thinking around this idea of, you know, Jesus
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and the one is that I think if there's a story that you love in
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John that's unique to John, it's probably Jesus and one person
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like those are the stories, the narrative moments that stand
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out. There's some wonderful teaching
12:06
like and, and as we'll get to the second-half of John that
12:11
that starts to fade out. It's much more about dialogue
12:14
with the disciples. You see bits of it with Judas
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with Peter with Peter again at the end with John, but but like
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it's it's located primarily in the first half and Nathaniel's
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really the first moment where you see Jesus supernatural
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ability to see people. You know the language in this
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one will be while you were under the fig tree.
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I saw you. And for Nathaniel, that clearly
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hits pretty heavy, either because of the analogy or
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because of where he's just physically been.
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And Jesus does that over and over again.
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Yeah, yeah. So, so you're saying, like, out
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of those characters, maybe the Nathaniel 1 jumps out to you?
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What about for you, Angela? Like when you were studying
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this, was there one of those disciple encounters that like,
13:10
pulled on your heartstrings the most?
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Yeah, I mean, I agree, I think Nathaniel did definitely.
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He was. He was actually the easiest 1 to
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exegete and to pull to really pull from his story.
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But the one that spoke to me the most was Simon.
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Simon absolutely. And just Jesus like knowing like
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you are just as boom, you are. This is who you are.
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This is who you you're going to be.
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This is who I'm making. Yeah.
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So I would love for you because that was actually the the part
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of your message that spoke most to me.
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And you brought in a quote. I'm not necessarily expecting
13:54
you to have it memorized or whatever, but you brought in a
13:57
quote from DA Carson, I believe. Yeah.
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So can you unpack this idea of the?
14:02
What's going on with this naming?
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It's not just hey, you now have a new name.
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There's like some other stuff there that you highlighted that.
14:11
Again, Yeah, no, it's it's the fact that it was DA Carson and I
14:17
think the the I think also part of Leslie New Begin, but
14:21
basically them saying that no, no, no, I he doesn't just see
14:26
you. He really, it's this invitation
14:30
like, hey, I know you. It's not just I see you.
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It's not just that God or Jesus like names people or is
14:40
omniscient or any of the other things.
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It's very specifically, I know who you are and I'm the one that
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names you. And so I'm actually going to
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tell you who you are. And then for me, where the
14:55
rubber meets the road is that then he makes you who you are.
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The pressure is off. Fascinating.
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To me. He makes you who you are.
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And, and I mean, yeah, I, I can't remember exactly what the
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quote was now, but but it was that kind of intentionality in
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the commentary saying no, no, no, no.
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This is bigger than he just names you and gives you a new
15:23
name. He's actually the one that is
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the initiator of all the work in doing that.
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So like by renaming him, he starts a process of turning him
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into what he just named him. Yes, and then it's really up to
15:40
the Lord. Like we participate.
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Absolutely, we have volition, but it's really up to the Lord
15:47
to make us who he says we are again with that participation
15:55
and that it's really, I see it as a form of of submission or
16:00
relational surrender. I mean, that's why I kept coming
16:05
back to surrender so much that we're, it's an imperfect
16:09
surrendered, yes. Everything's about surrender.
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Alex and I were joking that we need to just write so many more
16:18
songs about surrender because we could add them to almost every
16:21
Sunday. And then it like, when you do, I
16:23
surrender all like, 40 weeks in a row.
16:25
It's like, all right, come on, There's got to be some other
16:28
options. Yeah.
16:30
I'm going to write a song called I Surrender Everything.
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Yeah. It's going to be.
16:35
A huge I surrender. Yeah, it doesn't quite Totos,
16:42
we'll say. In different languages.
16:45
You can find a way to do it then.
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Maybe I'll just change it all to more and then try and rebrand it
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more than them. More than the ones who wrote
16:52
Surrender All, I surrender the most.
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The most, more than anybody in the room.
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All right, This is going downhill, so could you maybe
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I've got the passage here. Yeah.
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So you just highlighted a couple things, I think from Sunday.
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You were trying to demonstrate a couple things.
17:15
One that he kind of customizes it to the knowledge and and then
17:24
yeah, so maybe could you walk us through like how he does that
17:27
with some of these characters? I can pull it on the screen if
17:29
we want to for those who are watching since they're better.
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Well. We we've.
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Yeah, the I think the biggest, the biggest example if.
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I'm oh, I'm in the wrong. I'm.
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Putting on my glasses because I do not have.
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Trying to get to chapter 1 so we have, let's see, Phillip and
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Andrew. Yes.
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So wait right up the top. Wait, it's further back, further
18:04
back, further back. So John, the opening, the
18:09
passage, like John the Baptist says that's the guy.
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And then this two disciples, which you said is John.
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John and Andrew. John and Andrew, they say turn
18:20
around. Jesus saw them following and
18:22
asked what do you want and they said rabbi which means teacher
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where? Where are you staying?
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So like what? Maybe highlight some of the
18:30
things you observed in that section.
18:31
Right, I think I think part of what I observed was the fact
18:35
that like he he didn't just turn and see them.
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Like the word there saw is actually he like gazed intently,
18:44
like as if studying them. So it wasn't just like he took a
18:48
a glance like a once over and like, what do you guys want?
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And and I, I actually stumbled upon because I was like, there's
18:56
got to be more to this, that question of like, what do you
19:00
want? It It it's for in my mind,
19:05
ludicrous. Like in our day and age, if, if
19:08
you're with the number one religious guru, so to speak,
19:12
like you don't, you don't mince words.
19:15
You ask what you want. But back then, it really was a
19:18
cultural nuance. At least two of the commentaries
19:23
were pointing out. Like, I think I look through
19:25
about 8 different commentaries and at least two of them were
19:29
like, this is a cultural nuance. This is them showing respect.
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This is them not wanting to overtake him, but also being
19:38
like, hey, yeah, you're the one. Like we want to know.
19:41
And and the fact that he invited them to come and learn more, it
19:45
wasn't just this. Yeah, I'm the one.
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And I can just tell you right now all the answers to all your
19:53
questions. Like I could probably just
19:55
download it to you right now. But instead, no, let's come and
19:58
dialogue like, let's let's go off.
20:01
Let's come with me. You're invited here.
20:04
So are they, are they testing the waters with him?
20:07
Is that the vibe you're talking about?
20:09
Or is it? I think like what I got.
20:12
Out hesitant or what? I think what I got out of it was
20:16
the one that we trusted, which was John the Baptist.
20:20
We trusted him the most and and he's saying you're the one.
20:24
And so yes, we trust that. However, we maybe have a few
20:32
questions. We've got some, you know, I
20:35
don't, I don't even know if it's concerns, but like, there's some
20:38
things to flesh out here. Like maybe because especially
20:42
since John the Baptist was told this by God, right?
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It wasn't like another person told him this.
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No, this is how you're going to know it's him.
20:51
And so. So for me, it's not necessarily
20:57
skepticism or concern. It's more like, hey, we yeah, we
21:02
think you're the one. It's curiosity.
21:04
And we, we maybe have a few more questions.
21:07
And do you mind? Would.
21:09
You. You know what's so fascinating
21:11
about this? All these encounters like cuz
21:13
you and I spent a decent chunk of time talking through this
21:15
passage. Yes, you're very gracious.
21:17
I, I, I think it's a good example of how you're supposed
21:24
to read between. You're supposed to read between
21:26
the lines in the Bible. Yeah.
21:28
Because at a face value, you could just read this passage and
21:32
some of those nuances wouldn't come out.
21:36
But like there's these, you have to start to do a little bit of
21:39
imaginative thinking. These two characters, they're,
21:43
they're religiously or spiritually on high alert
21:49
because they're following the greatest, most interesting
21:53
religious prophet of their day, John the Baptist.
21:56
So they have like a religious and spiritual interest.
21:58
They're not, they're not disinterested.
22:02
They're highly interested. Their leader says this.
22:05
So like you have to almost insert all these assumptions,
22:08
like what are they feeling of their curiosity and all this
22:10
stuff. And then within a few moments
22:14
they're like whatever they talk about.
22:17
It would be awesome to know what they talked about.
22:19
That afternoon, right? So they meet, they go see what
22:23
he where he's staying and they spend the day with them.
22:26
And then like, imagine this, the massive pendulum swing in their
22:29
life where they just like, yes, John was correct.
22:32
But I, I love the next moment where, and I don't know if you
22:36
talked about this, maybe you did.
22:38
And and it's, it's a bit of a like a filler verse 43.
22:41
The next day Jesus decided to leave for Galilee.
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Yes, like in modern terms, that's like someone saying like,
22:48
Hey, do you want to be a start in a starter?
22:51
And they're in New York City. And then like the the next day
22:56
is like, you know what, we're going to start this thing in
22:58
Albany, NY. Right.
23:00
Or something like that it. Must have been quite like, you
23:04
know, the, the you're you're right next to the centre of
23:07
religious life in the 1st century.
23:10
We found the guy and he's exiting the stage, yeah.
23:13
He is, yeah. It's.
23:15
Just a bit left field, like, you know, we're just going to go up
23:17
north for a little, little while.
23:20
Do you want to follow? Yeah, it's, you know, and then
23:23
then he, you know, starts building more or recruiting more
23:28
disciples. Yeah, up there.
23:31
Oh yeah. Again, with this intentional
23:32
purpose of like it seems like long before Philip and Nathaniel
23:36
became his disciples, he has in mind.
23:39
Yeah, Philip and Nathaniel, which is actually is, is one of
23:44
the ways where you see Jesus. Like I think the foreknowledge
23:52
of Jesus is more evident in John than it is in any of the other
23:57
Gospels. It definitely, there's
23:59
definitely like language that you know, there's an awareness
24:05
of a mission and where this is all going in Matthew, Mark,
24:09
Luke. But in John, like the language
24:12
here with Nathaniel, the language with the woman at the
24:15
well, like, you know, you have 5 husbands and the one you're with
24:19
is not your husband. Like whether you'd call that
24:22
like in in the modern day, like charismatic movement, like a
24:26
word of knowledge or something like that.
24:27
Like there's a way of operating in Jesus.
24:31
There's a little bit distinct, which is just, is just
24:36
fascinating. But yeah, that that movement
24:38
always, always just gathers my attention because, because the,
24:45
the the synoptic movements are a little bit different where Jesus
24:49
is in different points. So he starts in Jerusalem.
24:51
Here there's this quick jaunt almost up to Galilee.
24:55
The next passage, the wedding in Cana will be in Galilee.
24:58
And then he's back down to Jerusalem.
25:00
And you know it. It's just very up and down.
25:04
Yeah, yeah, but only in John. Right.
25:07
Only in John, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
25:09
And Jesus is in in the synoptics, He's in in Galilee
25:13
all the time. And so can you tell?
25:15
The audience Synoptics. Sorry Matthew, Mark and Luke the
25:18
see together ones the ones that are similar.
25:22
And then John's the outlier. And John's the outlier, so he's
25:24
always in Galilee, and then he makes this final journey down to
25:27
Jerusalem. But in John, yeah, the action
25:31
moves around a lot. More, it does.
25:34
Yeah, Well, and the, and I think too, the religious leaders, they
25:39
don't, they're fine, at least in the Synoptics, they're fine as
25:43
long as he stays. That seems right.
25:45
Yeah, right. They're fine as long as he stays
25:48
out of the holy city. He stays out of their way and
25:51
then when he starts coming down they are not so funny.
25:54
Yeah. Like there's this bit in Yeah,
25:56
and there's this bit in John 7 where he's back in Galilee and
26:00
his his brothers are basically taunting you.
26:04
Like, shouldn't you be in Jerusalem?
26:06
Like you really can do all the things you say you do.
26:11
Sibling like. Interesting how it how the flow
26:16
is in this this text, but again, always with the purpose, always
26:20
with some reason for being where it.
26:23
Is. Yeah.
26:24
So, so this first group of you know, of people that he
26:31
encounters, these first disciples, he's he calls, I
26:34
mean, he tells them to come and see.
26:38
And you and I are joking in your preparation of the message that
26:40
like, if you're looking for a step by step instruction on how
26:44
to call disciples, this would be the most unhelpful passage for
26:48
because it's not the same for any of the others.
26:50
So this one he says come and see.
26:53
And then the next one, so like talk about the next one that
26:55
happens, which is so Andrew and. Then.
27:00
Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, was one of the two who heard
27:03
what John had said and who followed Jesus.
27:06
The first thing Andrew did was to find his brother Simon and to
27:10
tell him we found the Messiah and they he and he brought him
27:13
to Jesus and Jesus looked at him.
27:15
We talked a little bit about this already on the show and he
27:17
looked at looked at him and said, you're Simon son of John.
27:21
You will be see called Cephas, which means Peter.
27:24
So like talk about, talk about that a little bit like why does
27:28
he customize it for Peter? Do we know?
27:32
I don't. I don't think we can know 100%,
27:35
but I tend to lean into the camp given all the other kind of
27:41
outlying evidence is that something's going on there in
27:47
Simon's heart and with his identity and in his life, that
27:52
he needs him to call him and tell him who he is.
27:55
Like no, no, no. Like really, this is yeah, you
28:00
you think you're this, but you're this.
28:04
And and that's a strong personality too.
28:06
Like Peter, Simon Peter is a strong personality.
28:09
I mean I would say he's an Enneagram 8 personally but.
28:14
Those are the words. Right, Everybody likes them.
28:17
They're. So beautiful and healthy.
28:22
I, I, yeah, I, I think you could almost like define the first
28:27
calling as come and see and then the second one is actually more
28:32
like ICU. It's.
28:33
Like a, It's like a. Visual.
28:36
So so yeah. And, and that that speaks to
28:40
maybe some part of Peter that needs to be seen before any
28:45
movement can happen. The, the, I think Matthew
28:51
especially plays with Peter's cycles of failure and success.
28:58
You know, he sees Jesus very clearly and then has this moment
29:03
where he takes him aside, says you're not going to do any of
29:07
the things you said you're going to do.
29:10
And then he has another wonderful moment where he does
29:13
something wonderful. And then, you know, Jesus takes
29:17
him up a mountain and he almost does the same thing again.
29:19
He's like, let's just stay here in this little mountain
29:22
paradise. Let's build tabernacles, live in
29:25
a dream world. And and so Peter's always got
29:29
this fluctuation that we see and and so get.
29:31
A vision. So, so Jesus, work in him takes
29:35
a long time. I mean, you know, three years
29:38
later, he's still a work in progress, right?
29:41
Yeah. Should give us all a lot of
29:43
hope. You get the impression that like
29:46
with the first two disciples, the thing they needed to hear
29:49
was come and see. And with this one, with with
29:53
Simon, if he if he'd said come and see, Simon would have been
29:56
like, who's this guy think he is?
29:58
Yeah. But because he he approaches
30:00
Simon this way, maybe, I don't know, we don't know, but maybe
30:05
calls out a, a like some heart issue that you were just talking
30:09
about a, a, a self doubt maybe, or we don't know.
30:14
But like either way, what we do know is it's so powerful that
30:19
this guy drops his whole life and does follow without the come
30:23
and see at this time. So all right, so moving on.
30:27
Is there what what are some ways that he customizes his
30:32
interaction with Philip and Nathaniel that you noticed?
30:37
Well, I mean, Philip was for me, Philip was the most direct.
30:43
I mean, yes, it's very short. He doesn't say a lot, just, you
30:47
know, follow me. And but it I was curious about
30:52
the fact that as you said, that the invitations were different,
30:58
they look different, the engagement was different.
31:00
So by the time he gets to Philip, it's like, follow me.
31:03
And I'm thinking, why would he like a, did he know Phillip
31:08
right. And then it, and then I was
31:10
curious about the fact that like, since they all came from
31:13
the same really area, like in the same city, basically like
31:18
did they know each other? And because because also once we
31:22
get to Phillip, then Phillip's looking for he went and found
31:26
Nathaniel. So they, it implies they knew
31:29
each other. Is is what I take.
31:31
What do you take, Alex? Yeah, I, I do think the whole
31:35
like if you try and be too geographical with this text, it
31:40
really sends you into a bit of a loop.
31:43
Like, like, why is Peter in Jerusalem?
31:46
Like what? What's even doing that?
31:47
Like we have no kind of framework.
31:50
Like why is a guy that seems to have spent the whole of his life
31:53
fishing around a lake in in Galilee that suddenly in
31:57
Jerusalem? Like why when all the other
32:00
gospels say that Jesus called Peter as he's walking down the
32:05
Sea of Galilee? Like why does this one have
32:08
Peter in Jerusalem or in Bethany at least right next to
32:12
Jerusalem? So there's.
32:13
Yeah. So you just asked a question.
32:17
Do you going to try and answer it or Angela, do you have like
32:21
some thoughts on that? No, I well, I think, I think
32:24
that I agree with him because I got stuck in the loop.
32:28
That he's talking about. I I mean, I was like, okay,
32:31
what? Like why?
32:32
I kept asking over and over, like, why are these people in
32:35
different places and then they're all assumingly from the
32:39
same place. The text is clear about that.
32:42
But like, again, why is that so important?
32:45
And. Usually.
32:46
Well, and that's the thing I mean, honestly, I'll I'll go on
32:49
a little Bunny trail. Is that honestly one of my new
32:52
favorite books is, is this one, Rediscovering Israel with Chris
32:57
by Christy McClelland, only because she talks about when you
33:02
read something in Scripture like location, location, location.
33:06
Like, because so often, at least I know for myself, like I've
33:12
been reading the scriptures since I was about 9 or 10 years
33:14
old and no one had ever in all the sermons I pointed out or
33:21
that I can remember was like, hey, when you're reading
33:24
through, like location is so important.
33:27
Not just background, not just the history of what's happening
33:32
right before and right after and where it is in the in the Bible,
33:35
but like, where is it happening? Because they're telling you for
33:39
a reason. And like, she just does a
33:42
beautiful job of saying it. It's like real estate here.
33:44
Location, location, location. It is important.
33:47
Yeah. So.
33:49
So was there any, any sort of, I think you hinted a little bit
33:52
out of that in your message about peseta.
33:54
Was there something going on there that you discovered?
33:58
No, not that I remember. Yes.
34:03
No, but Alex might think of something.
34:05
Other than a hints at the the fact that they knew each other
34:07
right? Yeah, I mean it, it Bethsaidu is
34:10
not Nazareth, which is is maybe the only value in it the the,
34:15
the, the the some like intercity competition of value of 1 of
34:19
another. I mean that would that would be
34:24
the only deed. Like I do think the geography
34:27
enables John to stretch out the cool stories that that get very
34:35
pushed one into another in in in the synoptics.
34:40
So in in all the synoptics, as far as I can remember, James and
34:46
John are called together. Andrew and Peter are called
34:49
together. Like it, it, it's, it all
34:54
becomes a little bit of a blur. This does enable like, oh,
34:58
there's this one and this one and this one and this one in a
35:03
way that is a little bit more unusual.
35:06
And of course, we always have to remind ourselves that
35:11
chronology's not a religion for these people in the same way it
35:17
is. Especially for John.
35:20
Yeah, like like it it's, you know, and, and there's a lot of
35:23
lot of other scholars that that think of John as actually being
35:32
the best for understanding the history of Jesus ministry
35:37
because of the stretched timeline or because of the the
35:40
larger timeline. So a lot of a lot of writers
35:44
would say it's the synoptics that condense down heavily.
35:47
John is actually more like accurate in terms of the three
35:51
years of ministry, but. But he's also very comfortable
35:56
moving stories from one part to another.
35:59
Yeah. And.
36:01
And that maybe is enough to explain why Peter is in in
36:04
Jerusalem. Bethany.
36:06
Yeah. When there isn't much evidence
36:09
that he spent much time down there in the synoptics.
36:15
So. But yeah, that, that to, to
36:18
finish the thought on that, that chronology piece that there's
36:21
nothing that offends a 21st century person or anyone after
36:27
the mid 19th century that offends those people more than
36:32
inaccuracy in chronology. Well, like you start at the
36:36
start, right? And you end up the end, right?
36:38
And, and, and that just doesn't play into most history.
36:43
You know, a, a, a good biography on a Roman leader would start
36:49
with his death and then go back to his birth.
36:52
Yeah. You know, the, the, the
36:54
chronology just didn't play the same role that it does for us.
36:58
We like ordering everything and, and so it's hard for us to get
37:02
that a new idea. And, and it's just something
37:05
that people in the 1st century didn't care about.
37:08
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. But honestly, as a storyteller,
37:13
I do care very much about because in my thinking along
37:19
your lines is the chronology is of course, you would end with
37:24
you would end with the most or begin with the most interesting
37:27
thing. You would hook your audience
37:30
like you would draw them in with the most powerful thing and then
37:35
go from there and then weave things like that's that's kind
37:39
of how my mind works. But I do understand what you're
37:41
saying in general. It, it, it is like we want to
37:44
know down to the detail, like this happened on his 12th
37:48
birthday and here's why, right? And, and if not, then we're not
37:52
too sure about this. You know, we get pretty black
37:55
and white in there. I did read something that
37:59
suggested that the reason why when you hear about Jesus being
38:04
born and then all of a sudden it's quiet and then you hit
38:09
about your 12 and then all of a sudden it's quiet again.
38:13
And then all of a sudden he's starting his ministry that it
38:17
was because of that time period when young boys are trained and
38:22
and noticed as to whether they have aptitude to to be a rabbi
38:26
or not. And so I was like, that's
38:29
fascinating to me. You know, it's it's it's a
38:32
suggestion. You know of what maybe why that,
38:36
you know, they all say, yeah, here he is at 12 instead of and
38:40
now we're at 30. You know, so like, like we
38:45
started this episode that Jesus has this tendency in the book of
38:51
John specifically to focus on the 1:00.
38:54
And then what I what I think your message, one of the things
38:57
you did from a more like Bible study side of things is you
39:02
actually Alex had made that thesis statement two weeks in a
39:05
row without any actual evidence yet in the sense that there
39:10
hadn't been that first one encounter.
39:13
And then this passage just illustrates it so powerfully.
39:17
Like this beautiful custom custom interaction with these
39:21
two characters. And then this deep seeing that
39:25
he does with Peter and then this deep seeing that he does with
39:28
Andrew and Nathaniel, where he he just does exactly what you
39:33
were talking about encountering the one.
39:36
So but you also shared a little bit about your own story, sort
39:39
of where you felt seen. And interestingly to me, what
39:48
I'd love for you to talk about now is it wasn't, at least at
39:53
first, this like, oh, I feel so seen.
39:57
I'm so grateful. It was actually a pretty painful
40:00
scene. Yes, yes.
40:02
Yeah, So what happens when in a life where God sees you, names
40:08
you something new, and you're like, I disagree.
40:10
Yeah. And you have to wait for that to
40:13
come to fruition. Like, could you talk about some
40:15
of the emotions of that journey? Oh, bada Bing bada boom it is.
40:21
It was hard. It was, and I think because like
40:25
you were talking about chronology and condensed
40:28
storyline, it's so easy for people to think, Oh well, this
40:31
just happened pretty much over a year and she's all good.
40:35
No, it was honestly a 10 year journey.
40:38
Like it, it started when I was singing a lead role in
40:43
Asheville, NC and I came back and I had been suffering from
40:49
some health issues that the doctors had finally figured out,
40:52
but it, it took them years to figure out.
40:55
And, and so this one brilliant doctor was like, hey, I'm going
41:00
to send you off to the to sing this lead role.
41:03
You happen to have these vestibular migraines and I know
41:08
you can't really control them right now and they just pop up
41:10
whenever and completely lay me flat like I have to go to bed.
41:16
So there's no, you Can't Sing and have a migraine like this.
41:21
And so but she sent me off with some medication and my I was
41:25
literally holding on to his robes going you gave me this
41:28
job. There's no backup singer for me.
41:32
And if I get a migraine when I have to perform, it's over.
41:37
And also realizing like, like this can't happen.
41:41
Like so you're going to have to figure something out.
41:43
Lord. And, and really, and he did.
41:46
He was very gracious. I was there two weeks singing
41:50
and I had one migraine on my day off like that for me felt quite
41:57
miraculous. However, when I came home, I was
42:01
very much, you know, when like when you run a race or you've
42:05
been in, you run a marathon like you're like, I need to sign up
42:07
for more marathons. Let's get going, let's get
42:09
moving. I'm in high, I'm in great shape.
42:12
And so I came home like with that intent and instead, within
42:15
three weeks I was flat on my back and like in my red robe,
42:20
migraines every single day for a year.
42:23
And so I what I thought I had coming in a singing career went
42:30
and my whole identity was stripped during that year.
42:34
I thought I was going to die. So it didn't feel as beautiful
42:37
and as profound. It's like your name shall be.
42:40
No, no, it didn't. And, and, and I also at that
42:43
time did not feel like he was saying like, no, you're never
42:46
like, if you're not like, I don't want you to sing.
42:49
That wasn't it. But I had this huge roadblock
42:53
and I had to learn to trust him, like, and I also had to frankly
42:57
learn, learn his love for me during that time because it was
43:05
a lot of doing things for Jesus with a beautiful heart behind
43:09
it, but not fully understanding and experiencing like, you know,
43:13
if you don't do these things for Jesus, like he still loves you
43:17
like he loves you even more. Like, it's OK, you don't have to
43:20
perform. So, so like, and then fast
43:24
forwarding, like we finally, you know, I, I honestly, I finally
43:30
figure out, I go to a counselor that was recommended to me and
43:36
I, I walk in the room and on the third like visit, she's like,
43:39
you know, I'm a Christian. I pray for my clients.
43:42
Hey, can I pray for you? You have I, I happen to have
43:47
some experience in the spiritual realm and you have this weird
43:50
Silver Band on your head. And I, being a lover of jewelry,
43:54
thought it was a beautiful silver decorative jewelry piece.
43:58
And she goes, no, it looks like a torture band.
44:01
And she goes from like the medieval time.
44:03
And I was like, oh, wow. And she goes and I feel like the
44:05
Lords asking me to pray, tell it to go in the name of Jesus.
44:09
And, and but I trusted her because she said, she said to
44:14
me, my job is to obey what he's asking me.
44:17
His job is to determine the outcome.
44:19
That's why I trusted. Which is a passage that comes up
44:23
next week. I'm so excited, right, But, but
44:27
all of that's happening and actually I, she looks at me and
44:31
she's like, well, how do you feel after the prayer?
44:33
And I'm like, I'm I, you know, everything feels cock eyed
44:37
still. I'm I still have the migraine,
44:39
but you know, when he's done with it, I think he will take
44:42
it. You know, I don't know what that
44:43
looks like, but again, after a whole year and then the next
44:46
morning I woke up and I had no symptoms.
44:48
I was 100% healed 18 months. And that's during that time
44:54
Jonathan was like, well, I'm getting called to New York.
44:56
We're moving there. The Lord clearly made it like
44:59
you were. We're going there.
45:01
And I thought, Oh, my career is going to be able to start again.
45:03
I'm going to be in new. York, right?
45:05
I'm going to be right there. No more Galilee for me.
45:08
No, like Dell, Texas and tiny, you know, this is it.
45:12
This is the big times. And instead said after we got
45:15
there, six weeks after I got there, all the migraines came
45:17
back and I shook my fist at God. I was angry.
45:21
I felt like you asked about emotions.
45:23
I was angry. I felt hurt, I felt betrayed.
45:28
I went to church because I knew that was a healthy thing to do.
45:33
But I quite frequently told him, I don't want to talk to you.
45:35
I am fine watching Netflix. And because you've, you've so
45:40
betrayed me and my trust. And he was so kind, like so kind
45:46
to me during that time period. And he slowly but surely over
45:50
the next year to 18 months, brought people into my life that
45:54
led me to another round of health, from doctors to you name
46:00
it. And and he rebuilt my heart.
46:04
And so by the time you get to me at the piano sitting there being
46:08
asked this question by the Lord, I was already back singing,
46:11
already back coaching, already on on the thing again, getting
46:15
ready to perform. And that's when the weariness
46:18
hits me. Yeah.
46:20
And I'm like what is this? Yeah, the bizarreness of God
46:23
about to offer you everything that you ever thought you
46:25
wanted, right? Been like, yeah.
46:27
Not actually sure this actually hits the spot that I'm saying I.
46:29
Knew that a long time ago. Right, Well, in part of me
46:33
wanted to say, well, if you could have told me at 15, that
46:36
would have been very helpful. Like we we would have chosen a
46:38
different path. But at the same time, I just
46:41
look at how gracious God was to me to even ask the question, to
46:47
even let me reflect and go, yeah, you know, you are right.
46:50
And this doesn't feel and but I felt like during that time, he
46:55
rebuilt my heart for him and he regained my trust because he was
47:00
so kind and he let me rail on his chest do.
47:03
You think, do you think any of the opera background helped you
47:07
when you began to begin to speak to people?
47:11
100% I did not see it coming. Like I usually make pretty quick
47:16
connections, but I didn't on this one.
47:18
I was actually petrified because of that lie that I had believed,
47:22
you know, and I was petrified. And it just so happens that my
47:27
good friend also had been wanting and I felt that stirring
47:30
like I really want to teach and speak.
47:33
And so we were like, well, why don't we do that together?
47:37
And it was such a beautiful partnership because the Lord
47:41
knew we needed each other. And then before I knew it, like
47:45
it, It was like there were jaw-dropping moments where I was
47:52
able to recognize, Oh, my goodness, this whole time I have
47:56
kind of accused you of not knowing what?
47:58
You're doing. And I was accusing him of not
48:03
like knowing what he was doing. And then all of a sudden, when I
48:06
got far enough into speaking, I was like, I was made for this.
48:11
Like he's been training me since I was 15 for this, which is
48:16
beautiful. It was like a like a wax on wax
48:19
on, yes. It was.
48:20
Very much why am I waxing all these cars?
48:23
And he's like, block this punch. Right.
48:25
Yeah, I have a friend back in back in England, old friend he
48:32
felt called to. He started a charity that helped
48:37
free people from sexual slavery. And all of his training for six
48:42
years was comic Opry. You know, the kind of like white
48:46
face, like funny. Face.
48:48
Yeah, yeah, yeah. He did that for years.
48:50
And like was like, why am I doing this?
48:52
I just kind of got into it and I'm still here and, and, you
48:57
know, felt like it was finally like this meant nothing.
49:01
And then he started going into these foreign countries and he'd
49:04
actually go to some of these brothels and he'd had, he'd be
49:12
able to bring in authorities and have these places shut down.
49:18
And he said the the only thing that enabled me to do what he
49:21
did is he said, I spent six years learning how not to react
49:26
when people are laughing in my face.
49:29
Like you've got an audience right in front of you who are
49:31
literally laughing at this guy with white out face pulling
49:35
these ridiculous expressions and singing in this ridiculous
49:39
voice. And he said, for six years I
49:42
taught myself how to keep like a dead straight face regardless of
49:47
how they react. And he said, now I'm in these
49:49
horrific situations where I have to not react in a moment.
49:54
And and all of my background, he's actually helping me enable
49:58
to do what God has me doing now, even though it felt like God
50:03
didn't know what he was doing. Exactly.
50:05
I've tried to find the same example from green keeping like
50:09
but I haven't found 1 yet. I really love to mow some
50:15
straight lines and it really helped me with it.
50:18
Really helped me with my. Precious illustrations.
50:20
Right. Yeah, sure.
50:21
Yeah, yeah, it's the. Results.
50:24
So yeah, that's a good point. As we come towards the
50:28
conclusion of the of this episode, I just maybe just
50:33
imagine with me for a moment someone who is there on Sunday
50:40
and they heard your message and they started to sense that maybe
50:46
God was speaking them, their new name, or that maybe God was
50:53
asking them to come and follow or whatever it may be.
50:57
Could you sort of paint a picture of what a journey like
51:02
that might be? Some of the hard and some of the
51:07
good, yeah. Well, I, I, I think especially
51:16
as Americans, at least two out of the three of us, we.
51:22
Questionable. Questionable African.
51:24
I forget. OK, so just me, the American.
51:27
Name. Yes, yes, I, I really think that
51:32
we tend to look for that quick fix.
51:35
We tend to look for what's that? What's the answer that's going
51:39
to fix everything? Which this text would doesn't
51:41
help in that way. It feels so instant, like your
51:43
name. And then he's following and
51:45
they're all big man of brothers and.
51:46
Right. But, but Peter dealt with shame,
51:51
He dealt with shame. And what I have found is so
51:54
often we don't take that next step, whether it's getting
51:59
connected in a group or whether it's, you know, trying to, to
52:05
step out into a new career or or leave a career that feels very
52:09
secure, that's providing everything you need.
52:12
So often we don't step out into that, I find not only because of
52:17
fear, but under fear is shame, some form of shame about
52:22
themselves. Like it's, it's not that I need
52:26
to be ashamed because I did something, but I am shame.
52:30
And that is what I believe Jesus is after.
52:35
He's trying to eradicate and, and so and so when he invites
52:41
you, whatever that next step is, it's whether it feels gigantic
52:47
to you or it feels just tiny, Even the tiniest of step is
52:53
still obedience. I really love the way that the
52:56
chosen have chosen to. The show has chosen to show
53:02
Peter as a character and wrestling with some of those
53:05
inner demons. And there's this lovely scene in
53:08
one of the episodes where he has to go and tell his wife that
53:11
Jesus has called him and he's going with him as a like a
53:17
disciple. And he's really worried about
53:20
the conversation because he like he, he expects her to be angry.
53:27
And then they have this really like, and she's one of the best
53:29
characters in the show, actually, Loki.
53:31
She's just brilliant. And, and there's this wonderful
53:34
moment where she just tears up and she's like, I'm just just so
53:39
excited that somebody sees in you what I've always seen in
53:43
you. Oh, wow.
53:43
Yeah. Like, I mean, there's that boy
53:45
forgot about that. Like he starts, she starts to
53:48
say, no, no, I've seen this for years.
53:50
You're the one that doesn't see this.
53:52
Like this is what you're made for.
53:55
And and I think that that is, you know, on a on a deep level
54:01
for lots of us, we're the last ones to catch on to the
54:04
beautiful things that God has done in US and call us to and it
54:10
off. It's so often takes someone, you
54:14
know, in this case Jesus, But now in our case, you know, maybe
54:19
a friend, a counselor, a boss, a employee, whoever to say no.
54:27
This is actually one of the beautiful things that I see and
54:31
and really I feel God wants you to step into that.
54:35
That personal invitation from from that safe person that you
54:38
trust. And it's, it's like that that
54:40
actually I think is what the New Testament means by prophetic.
54:44
It's not as much like this is thus says the Lord.
54:49
It's let me speak goodness over you, and let me speak a
54:55
preferred future over you. And, and there's something about
55:01
those moments that enables us to step out of what we've believed
55:04
about ourselves. Yeah.
55:08
And all right, so I'll call out sort of a beautiful thing that
55:13
like you and I talked briefly about before you actually
55:16
preached and I think the congregation caught on to it,
55:19
but maybe it's fun to just name it more explicitly.
55:22
So you the story you told on Sunday about your own journey
55:26
being seen that the the tender and maybe way longer than you
55:31
would have liked journey of feeling scene.
55:35
And then seeing that sort of the the voice you heard when you
55:40
were 15 that you couldn't speak and then the calling you felt
55:46
when you saw that other woman on stage speak.
55:48
And you told me that some of that was just seeing her
55:51
playfulness and casual nature. And you're like, oh, that
55:55
mirrors how I would love to show up if I were in that
55:58
environment. Oh, no, Maybe I've called it
56:00
that environment. Yeah.
56:01
And then you did it on Sunday. And so that's sort of this fun
56:05
thing that your illustration was illustrated in two ways.
56:09
The fact that you're telling us the story from a platform was
56:15
kind of a cool, beautiful conclusion to that story.
56:19
Thank you. And maybe even just the
56:20
beginning of that. Yeah.
56:23
So awesome. Anything else you want to share?
56:26
Well, I, I think, I think my, my closing invitation to people who
56:32
are, who are feeling that nudge like, you know, what's he
56:35
inviting me into? Can I, can I trust him 100%?
56:40
Like I've been through enough pain in life and enough
56:43
disappointment and enough unanswered prayers as well as
56:47
answered to say he is absolutely trustworthy and the road may not
56:53
look like you thought, but he knows how to walk with you in it
56:57
and he meets you there. And it is beyond that.
57:01
His presence there is the. Gift.
57:04
That's what it is So good. Well, thank you.
57:09
Thanks for sharing your heart, being vulnerable with us.
57:12
That's like a thank you. Like, yeah.
57:14
What a what an interesting way to start.
57:16
You're like, oh, OK. So yeah, they asked me to preach
57:19
for the first time on the main platform and now I'm going to
57:22
bare my soul and some of my deepest struggles and stuff.
57:26
So. But you did a great job.
57:28
So thank you for sharing. Thanks.
57:30
Thanks gentlemen. All right, everyone, have a
57:32
great week. We'll see you all next week.
57:35
And yeah, goodbye.