Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Gorgeous world-class poker star burnt body found, scene staged. WHY?

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Gorgeous world-class poker star burnt body found, scene staged. WHY? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Have you ever been to Vegas?
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Because I have and it's awesome and beautiful and crazy.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: And when you see it on TV, you know you
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: even hear Elva singing Viva Las Vegas. It's just so fantastical,
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: like a dreamland. But for one high stakes poker player,
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: a well known female star on the poker circuit, that
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: dream turns to a nightmare. I'm Nancy Grace. This is
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: crime Stories. First of all, take a listen to our
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: friends at w D I V. A couple of are
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: driving down masa day road. Here is that approaches crossroad
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  Speaker 1: in White Lake Township when they made the awful discovery
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: yesterday morning. On the right here in this parking area,
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: they saw the lifeless body burnt beyond recognition. Cars parked
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: there is a trailhead for people to go hiking into
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: the pinecla. The area was quickly cordoned off as investigators
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: from White Lake and Oakland County Schraf's Department set about
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: their investigation. Who is she? How did she get here?
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: How did she die? This is a sparsely traveled stretch
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  Speaker 1: of road near the west end of Oakland County Airport.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: Please tell us. They have little to go on. They're
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: asking for your help. They have checked local missing person's reports,
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: but with no matches. They're asking a few residents in
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: the area for their help ring door bells, outside surveillance systems,
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: anything that potentially would have caught any possible lead that
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: we could use. Again. This victim killed, bought here and
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: set ablaze. So to be a female between twenty and
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  Speaker 1: thirty years of age, about five ft thirty five pounds.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: How did a female poker star end up burned to
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: a charred remain her body in a remote area. This
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: is a woman that had been on TV that was
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: really the darling of the gambling world. With me an
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: all star panel to break it down and put it
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: back together again. You've all Bronstein, friend of Susie known
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: as Susie Q in the circuit Nima Romani la California,
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: former federal prosecutor. He's seen it all. President of West
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: Coast Trial Lawyers and renowned civil attorney. Forensic psychiatrist doctor
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: Daniel Bober joining us and boy do I need a shrink?
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: You can find him on instat at doctor Daniel Bober.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: James shell Nutt twenty seven years Metro major case now
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: lawyer at shell Nut Law Firm dot com. Doctor Elaine Pope,
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: Forensic Anthropologist, Autopsy Supervisor, Office of Chief Medical Examiner, Norfolk, Virginia,
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: and you can find doctor Pope at burned Bone dot com.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: Let me just warn you her nickname is the Dame
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: of Flame. But first to crime online dot com investigative
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  Speaker 1: reporter Levi Page Levi before you get started, to take
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: a listen to our friend Charlie Langton at Fox two.
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: The remains of a thirty three year old woman from
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  Speaker 1: Waterford Township so badly burned have now been identified. The
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: individual was Suzie Zow. Susie was found by a resident
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: at eight oh five of the morning on July thirteenth
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: in White Lake Township near Mason Day Road and Crossroad.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: It's a semi remote state park area. There's a little
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: parking lot there. But why she was so badly burned
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: and when she disappeared is still a mystery at the
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: determine whether or not this is a cover up or
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: this maybe some sort of retaliatory incident because of her profession.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: Seems Susie was a professional poker player and had been
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: living out a state in California for a while. She
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: didn't really share a lot of that information with us.
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: She was a very private person. Yes, the entire time
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: we've known her. Yep, she was always a little bit
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: of a mystery. Her friends speaking today remembering Susie but
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: also questioning what happened. If anybody knows anything, they need
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: to come forward. This is not right, This is not
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: something that I don't know. They need to come forward,
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: will say, though, And a high stakes poker world, a
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: lot of secrets are being kept straight out to Levi Page,
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: crime online dot Com investigative reporter, the first thing I
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: want to ask you is about where she was found.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: That I'm going to back it up to doctor Elaine
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: Pope for instaganthropologists to determine when she was found owned
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: versus when she was killed. Leavi Page, tell me about
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: the area. I know this is a semi remote area
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: of a state park, but what more do we know?
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: So Nancy Pontiac Lake Recreation Area. It's remote, it's wooded,
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  Speaker 1: it has a lot of walking and hiking trails. It's
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: like a place, you know, where I would take my
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: dog if I lived near there, to go walking. And
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: that is where her body was found. It was found
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: right after eight am by two men that were on
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: their way to work. Now, let me understand something. You said.
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: It's a place that you might take your dog. That
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: means easily accessible, like trails where people would go. Or
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: are we talking so remote that it's a place you'd
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: have to hike too. Well, it had a parking area
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: so you could easily get to it, and the trails
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: were easily accessible. They were well manicured. The trails were
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: very visible. It was not trails that you had to
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: hunt through a lot of weeds and woods to find. Mind,
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: I'm curious about Pontiac Lake Queis that exactly, Nancy? It
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: is about thirty miles outside of Detroit. Thirty miles outside
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: of Detroit. You know, joining me right now is a
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: special guest you've all Bronstein, friend of Susie Zoo also
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: known as Susie Q in the gambling world. All. How
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: did you know Susie? I met Susie over ten years ago.
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: We were both out in Vegas for the World Series
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: of Poker and we met playing a cash game and
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: ended up who Slow it down? Friend? Slow it down? Okay?
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: You met playing a what a cash game? During the
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: World Series of Poker in Las Vegas. Okay, what's that like?
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: I've always wondered because I've seen it on TV and
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: I try to read everyone's faces just out of you know,
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: professional curiosity. Tell me about this is a cash game.
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: When you say cash game, how much you talk talking
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: about For this particular game, I think the buying was minimum,
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: maybe two thousand dollars. I would usually buy in for
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: about ten thousand dollars this game. Um, it was a
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: pretty big game. I guess how much could you win
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: in it? Well, I mean theoretically, I guess like maybe
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: ten or twenty thousand dollars in a day. Wow, you
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: play all day? Well, now, let me ask you this
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: about Susie. How did she get the nickname Susie Q.
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: I don't know the origin of that name. I guess
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: it just fitted her. Yep. And you say you met
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: her at a cash game in Vegas. What was she like?
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: What drew you to her? She was just smiling the
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: whole time, and she was really friendly and u and
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: she was really smart, like she was one of the
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: big winners in the game, and she was just really cool. So, um,
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: she and I just kind of became friends restently, and
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: we need a hang out a lot. You know, did
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: date her, No, we were just friends. Was she dating anyone?
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: M Well, since I met her, she dated several people
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: on and off, but I think at the time I
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: met her, she wasn't. When she would date people, would
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: they also be in the poker world, the gambling world.
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: She would tell me about some of her She told
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: me about some of the guys she dated, and they were,
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: like she said, they played poker, but they weren't any
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: well known players. I didn't know any of them. They did,
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: they play professionally, they just weren't famous. Yeah, I guess
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: you could say that Crime stories with Nancy Grace, guys
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: we're talking about. I'm looking at her photo right now.
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: She's just absolutely stunning. Her name is Susie Zoo, just
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: a little bit over thirty years old, and had climbed
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: her way up amongst the ranks of professional poker players,
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: a world that is shrouded in mystery to most of
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: us and involves all sorts of maneuvers, keeping secrets, gambling secrets,
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: being able to bluff. But she couldn't bluff her way
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  Speaker 1: out of this. Her body is found burned to a
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  Speaker 1: crisp in a state park, a semi remote state park
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: near Pontiac Lake. Straight out to doctor Elaine Pope for
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: insta anthropologist. You can find her at burnedbone dot com.
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: Right there that made me look it up. Her nickname
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: the Dame of Flame. Doctor Pope. Let me first ask you,
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: how did you get the nickname the Dame of Flame?
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: Just years of research of my specialty, which is examining
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: how the human body burn It was just kind of
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: a nickname that's been dubbed over the years. You know,
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: doctor Pope. When I was a little girl, I did
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: not dream of trumping through crime scenes and going through
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: the crime lab and autopsies and looking at dead bodies
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  Speaker 1: lying in the floor and elsewhere. That was not my
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: dream growing up. You know. I thought I was going
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: to write books and ride horses. Doctor Pope, did you
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: actually think dream of analyzing how the human body burned
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: as a child or did it just happen over time? Oh,
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: it just happened over time. I'm glad to hear that.
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: I'm glad to hear that that's not what you dreamed
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  Speaker 1: of when you were five years old. So, doctor Pope,
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: for instance, canthropologists, Autopsy Supervisor, Office Chief Medical Examiner. How
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: hard is it to burn a human body? Completely burn it? Well,
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: it takes the important things is it takes fuel and time.
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: Regarding this case, I don't have information about whether she
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  Speaker 1: was in a vehicle or outside, and those those two
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: different environments would create very different outcomes in terms of
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  Speaker 1: this type of damage that the body would incur during burning. Say,
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  Speaker 1: for example, on a vehicle, it's a closed environments which
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: would retain heat more efficiently than just say an outdoor setting,
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  Speaker 1: and so so the burn patterns would be very different,
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: you know, depending on the actual circumstances in which she
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  Speaker 1: was burned. Let's go, do you leave ipage crime online
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: dot com investigator reporter, what can you tell me about
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  Speaker 1: the discovery of her body? Was the vehicle burned or
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: just her nancy? Law enforcement has not given a lot
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: of information. We do know that her vehicle, her vehicle
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: was not found near the crime scene, and we know
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: that two men discovered the body right after eight am.
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  Speaker 1: And that's something to wake up too. I do not
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  Speaker 1: think that the vehicle itself was burned, So doctory Lane Pope?
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: What does that mean to you that the vehicle may
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: not have been burned, just her body without a vehicle.
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  Speaker 1: In an outdoor fire setting, the burn patterns would be um,
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: you know, localized to the body. UM, in terms of
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: you know, it would um, the damage would be um,
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: you know, around the body on the body, um, you know,
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: and and so those those would be very different burn
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  Speaker 1: patterns than if she was burned entirely inside. Okay, we're
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: now getting an update, doctory Lane Pope that the body
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: was not in the vehicle, it was out in the open.
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: We've been getting conflicting reports on that. But you know,
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: one of the things I noticed to you, James shell
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: Nutt twenty seven years Metro major case now lawyer James
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: shell Nutt. I noticed where one of the investigators made
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: a public comment and said, we don't know if the
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: scene was staged. Yeah, it was staged. She wasn't burned
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: there by the road or else. There would be a
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: huge burn pit and you would see evidence of her
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: having been burned there. So any movement of the body
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: post mortem is staging. All right. She did not fall
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: go walking and fall over and have spontaneous combustion, so
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: we know the scene was staged. What does that tell you.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: Shell Nutt tells me it wasn't random. But what does
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: it tell you. Well, I mean, obviously it tells there
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: wasn't a random as well. But you know, somebody's trying
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: to cover something up. You know, when people burn a
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: body or a car or a house, they're trying to
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: hide evidence, any evidence that would link them back to
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: the scene of the murder. You know, I saw one
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: description of this death being a mysterious death. Well, there's
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: nothing mysterious about the death except for who did it.
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: This is a homicide. This lady was murdered. Somebody burnt
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: her body to destroy evidence. Take a listen to our
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: friends at Detroit w x y Z seven. This is
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: Jim Kurtzner. I can't even think how somebody could do that.
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: She was known on the professional poker's circuit as Susie Q.
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: Her friends here in Michigan say she started playing poker
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: as a team when they grew up in Troy, and
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: after college she played in the big games. In this
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: one hand in twenty seventeen in Los Angeles, she would
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: scoop sixteen thousand dollars. She was a free spirit in
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: the truest sense. She played by her own roles. She
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: followed her dreams absolutely brilliant. Police say Susie's murder may
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: be connected to her gambling in other states, or does
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: somebody locally she met with recently? Guys, the burned body
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: of a world class female poker players Zaw has been
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: confirmed found in a semi remote Michigan part. But what happened?
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: Back to you, doctor Elaine Pope forends caanthropologists at burnbone
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: dot com. Depending on how badly burned the body is,
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: how difficult will it be to determine cause of death
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: and how do you do that? That would be done
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: at autopsy by the forensic pathologists. Um, they would do
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: the external examinations or you know, document the the burn
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: damage to all the extremities front back of the body.
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: And then the major contribution to the autopsy or by
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: the autopsy is examining the internal the organs, any muscles
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: that were under protected underneath the burn skin. UM. So
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: they the pathologists would look for actual evidence of injury
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: as they would with a normal unburned body, so that
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: that procedure is pretty much the same. UM that they
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: would essentially be looking for any damage to any tissues,
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: any structures organ systems, and that would be that would
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: be there part of their investigation. Joining me right now,
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: former federal prosecutor, President of West Coast Trial Lawyers, Nima Romani, Nima,
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: thank you for being with us, Thanks Nancy for having men.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: Let me have you act as defense attorney here for
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: a moment, because not only did your client murder the
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: victim of Susie's now Susie Q, but also went to
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: the extent of burning her body, clearly to hide her identity.
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: Why else would a definite burn the body? Got any
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: ideas on that? Well, I mean, at least to one series,
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: you know, hide the evidence and hide her identity. The
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: other is to send a message. Right, there's someone who's
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: a gambler and this may be gambling related and who
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: knows who shield money to Okay, let me ask you something,
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: Nemo Romani. You're a very well known defense attorney, former prosecutor.
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: Are you telling me you think that happens a lot
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: in the world, more than just on movies and in novels.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: Have you ever had a case a revenge murder? I
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: have prosecuted a number of revenge murders are prosecuted, a
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: number of gambling cases. I mean, gambling is real. These
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: debts are real, and the only way that these types
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: of folks can make sure they're paid is to let
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: others know that if you don't pay, there's going to
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: be consequences. But wait a minute, shase the gambler bringing
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: in all the money. So based on your premise, Nemo
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: Romani with me, that means send a message to who
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: about what crime stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we're talking
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: about a beautiful young girl, Susie's aw who was a
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: world class poker player. Her body has just been found
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: charred throne on the side of the road in a
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: semi remote area outside Pontiac Lake State Park. With me,
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: Doctor Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist. You can find him on
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: doctor Daniel Bober dot com. Doctor Bober, take a listen
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: to our friends at w x y Z seven. She
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: came here on June ninth from Los Angeles. You have
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: to determine whether or not this is a cover up
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: or this maybe some sort of retaliatory incident. Because of
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: her profession, her friends say she kept details about her
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: personal life private from them, but she was there for
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: them during special times. I will remember that date, because
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: that was the night that I got engaged, and and
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: it was a nice tap for there. Everybody loved her.
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: Nobody ever remember her fighting with anybody ever, No drama.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: Her body was found burned to death and the Pontiac
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: Lake Recreation Area on the morning of July thirteenth. Police
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: say she was last seen by her mother the night
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: before at five thirty so this is a narrow window.
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: Police are asking witnesses to come forward. We still are
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: looking for anybody that may have seen or talked to
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: Susie between Sunday at about five thirty PM and the
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: early hours of Monday morning. First of all, I have
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: an issue was saying, is it a cover up? Yes,
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: it's a cover up. When you try to destroy a
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: body and destroy evidence, you're covering something up. Whenever you
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: stage a scene in any way, you're covering something up.
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: Even in a case where a mom was murdered at home,
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: the adult daughter then prosecuted. The daughter made the scene
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: look like someone had come in and stolen, possibly ray
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: and murdered the mom. Here's the giveaway. She placed a
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: waste basket of trashkin over the mom's head. Why would
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: a random killer do that because the scene was staged,
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: so there is a cover up. But did you hear
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: what else they said? She was found burned to death.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: We don't know that burning was the cod cause of death.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: To you. You've all Bronstein friend off Susie Hughes for
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: years now, also a poker player. When you heard the
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: female friends say everybody loved her, what was your experience
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: with Susie? You've all? Is that true? Us was absolutely
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: she was extremely kind and caring and trustworthy and always smiling.
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: Everybody loved her and adored her. We all like to
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: watch her play on Live at the Bike. Everybody loved Susie.
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: Nobody had any problems with her. Why does you love
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: to watch her? What about her made it fun? I
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: mean I've watched her play online. Yeah, well she she
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: was on Live at the Bike and she was basically
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: just smiling the whole time, and you could tell she
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: was really enjoying it, and you could tell she really
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: loves poker. And besides that, she's just a very good player.
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: She's somebody you watch play and she makes very good plays.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: And for somebody who appreciates poker, it's enjoyable to watch
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: that What's Live at the Bike. Live at the Bike
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: is m is a show where they basically invite some
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: poker players to come play at the Bicycle Casino in
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: Los Angeles and then they film it and they stream
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: it so you can watch it. Guys. You can see
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: her playing at crime online dot com. How common is
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: it for a woman to climb the ranks in professional gambling.
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: I don't know what the exact for scentages are, but
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: they're low for women. There are numerous female players who
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: are very good and have one big prizes playing poker,
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: but in general it's dominated by male players. Interesting. Interesting
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: and to you, for instance, psychiatrist doctor Daniel Bober, what
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: does that tell you a woman and a male dominated
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: line of business. I believe that her killer was someone
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: that knew her. I'm going to circle back to Nima
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: Romani on the retaliation theory, But does that mean that
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: most of her associates were men as well? I mean,
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: as a prosecutor, there were hardly any other female trial
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: lawyers running courtrooms at the time I was prosecuting, so
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: most of the people I hung out with were other
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: prosecutors males. People at the crime lab mailes. That's just
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: the way it was. Does that since most violent crimes
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: are committed by men when you work in a male
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: dominated field, to me, that would increase your likelihood of
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: being a victim of violent crime, just statistically, Doctor Daniel Bober, Yes, Nancy.
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: I mean, obviously how she lived was connected to how
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: she died, and it probably says something about her personality
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: to get into such a male dominated field like poker
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: and to be able to, you know, excel in that area.
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: So obviously, well, what does it say. I don't know
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: what you what you mean by that? What do you mean?
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: It says something about her personality to be in a
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: male dominated field. It says that she has to have
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: some backbones, some assertiveness to be able to compete in
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: that world and to hold her own and to excel.
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: It says something about her personality that she has a
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: lot of inner strength to be able to do that.
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: You know, she was pulling in about a quarter of
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: a meal according to the AP at one point, had
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: winning some of them around two hundred grand at the
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: World Series of Poker. She made seventy three almost seventy
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: four grand at a two thousand and twelve event at
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: the World Series of poker. I don't know what the
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: professional poker life is like. Let me go back to
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: you've all Bronstein, friend of Susie since two thousand and eight.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: Is it like what you see in movies like Ocean's eleven?
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: Is that what it's like. No, it's it's absolutely nothing
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: like that. And for somebody to go murder somebody over
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: a debt is basically unprecedented. There are tons of people
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: in the poker community who owe each other money. It's
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: a very common thing actually, and you know, tons and
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: tons of money. I mean some people owe each other
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: millions of dollars. You never hear about this happening to somebody.
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: Aside from that, I hung out with Susie in January
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: was actually the last time I saw her, and she
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: never mentioned anything to me about owing anybody money or
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: anything like that. And the last thing is, you know,
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: the place where she was found, where her parents live.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: I don't believe there is a poker scene there, so
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: I don't. I don't know. I wasn't you know. Okay,
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: wait a minute, wait a minute went you've all yeah,
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: I think there's a poker scene everywhere. It may be underground,
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: especially in states. Where gambling could be illegal. But I
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: find it hard to believe. It's just like saying you
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: live in a dry county. You don't, Okay, you just
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: pretend that you do. I think there's gambling everywhere. And
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: I wonder what if anything that had to do with
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: her murder. Did she beat somebody at gambling and they
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: owed her a ton of money and wouldn't would not
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: agree to pay her. And I want to go back
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: to Niema Romani. You know you just heard one of
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: the investigators say was her murder retaliates story? So you
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: know what, I'm eating a dirt sandwich right now. Because
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: you said it could have been sending a message. I said, no,
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: it wasn't. Hey, I still agree. I don't think it's
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: sending a message to other people. But you also said
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: retaliation Nema, and I pooh pooed it. But is it
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: in retaliation for a debt that was owed to her
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: or a debt that she owed You've all says he
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: didn't know of any debt. She had crime stories with
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. Guys were talking about the curious death of
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: a female gambling star that had clawed her away up
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: the ranks in a male dominated field of world class poker.
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: She'd been playing poker since she was in high school.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: She loved it. It was her thing. People loved watching her.
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: So why was Susie Zoo found dead? Her body burned
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: in a semi remote area near a state park Pontiac Lake, Michigan.
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: Back to you, Niema Romani, So you know what as
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: I said, I mean in a dirt sandwich. Even if
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: the investigators are considering considering retaliation, you know I can't
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: dismiss that as well. What did you mean by that?
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: You also said you'd had a lot of cases that
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: were murders in retaliation. What for drugs? What did you
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: mean by that? Gamily related that? So mean a person
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: owed money? Yes? Absolutely, he looks. You're talking about a
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: woman who's thirty three years old who moved back home
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: with her parents. You know, she left her life here
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: in Los Angeles to move home. So something's going on.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: And her last significant winning was back in two thousand
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: and twelve. Okay, I want to follow up on something
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: you just said because it's very significant. Uh, You're given
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: me a lot of information, Nema. It's like drinking out
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: a fire hydra hold on just a moment to you,
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: you've all, Bronstein, why did Susie moved back with her mom?
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: Was she afraid of something? Um? From what I gathered, Basically,
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: at this point in her poker career, it wasn't going
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: well for her and she had lost her bank roll
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: and she was kind of forced Los Angeles did moved
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: back and she lost what her bank roll. She lost
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: her bankroll? Okay, what do you mean by lost her bankroll? Basically,
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: she wasn't succeeding anymore and she had lost her winnings. Basically,
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: she had gone broke and uh, you know, couldn't stay
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: in LA and play poker. And she was going through
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: some other issues apparently, and that's why she moved back
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: in with other issues. Look, the reason I'm asking you've all,
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: I don't have some prurient interest in her personal life.
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: But in my mind, do you agree or disagree to you?
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: James shell Nutt, As an investigator, you have to know everything.
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: Is it a boyfriend, is it an X? Did she
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: owe money? It could be did she have a stalker?
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: It could be anything, and the tiniest detail could crack
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: the case. Shell Nutt agreed. You know, you know the
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: investigators right now are very likely investigating every aspect of Susie.
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: They want to know her, They want to know who
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: she's been speaking with, They want to know what personal
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: problems she had. Did she have a beef with someone
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: to where she did owe this money. I haven't seen
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: a report confirming that. I know that that's been thrown
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: out as a possibility. You know, you're gonna want to
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: know that she did she have any personal problems, any
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: psychological problems going on, and who she was dealing with
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: at the time. But yes, I mean, you can't overlook
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: any detail, as you know Nancy and murdered instigation, because sometimes,
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: as you say, it is the smallest detail that cracks
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: the case. I wonder what reason she really did leave
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: LA two forensics psychiatrist doctor Daniel Bober. That's a big
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: life change to go from the glitz and glamor of
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: LA which is a stone's throat of Vegas, back to
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: near Pontiac, Michigan. That is a big lifestyle change, doctor Bober. Yeah,
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: moving in with your parents and probably going broke. I mean,
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: these are all major life transitions that you may have
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: some connection to how she died, you know, to you
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: you've all Bronstein, friend of Susie since two thousand and eight.
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: That's a huge lifestyle changed. I remember after Dancing with
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: the Stars, moving after about a year in La back
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: home to take care of my parents. It was a
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: huge lifestyle change, and one that I wanted. Okay, yeah,
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: it was Gray say, oh there's two Martin, Oh there's
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: Paul abdoulah blah blah blah blah. That's wonderful, But when
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: you're raising children, you want I wanted the whole thing,
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: the whole stable home, life, stable community, the works. So
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: I'm just that's what motivated me to get back home
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: to extended family. I'm very curious about why she moved.
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: And also, you've all I keep hearing an echo over
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: and over that she was a quote very private person.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: Was she a private person? Was she naturally reticent or
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: was there were there things she did not want to
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: share for a reason? What can you tell me about her?
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: You've all? City was definitely somewhat of the enigma. She h.
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: She didn't really share any details about her life unless
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: less you asked her. But yeah, I mean she she
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: basically kept private to yourself. I also, I am curious
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: about the mindset of someone that would burn a human body.
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: Doctor Elaine Pope with me for instant anthropologist. You can
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: find her at burned bone dot com. She has dedicated
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: her career too the effects of burning on the human body.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: Doctor Pope. It's a real pleasure to speak with you,
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: and I've wonder if you've wondered. It would be very
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: difficult for me. It's very different to just shoot somebody
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: at a distance, Bam, they're dead. That versus pouring acceler
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: on a body and setting it on fire and watching
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: it burn, and having to try over and over and
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: over to burn human flesh. Have you ever thought about
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: what kind of a mind it takes to do that?
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: That's completely out of my area of expertise. I know
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: me too, but I still wonder because I see it
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: a lot. You've never wondered that. I mean for me,
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: it's an extra step of the of the of the
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: crime process. Oh, that's interesting. What do you mean by that?
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: It's an extra step in the crime process. What does
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: that mean? Well, well, like you said, you shoot somebody
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: or whatever, it's just an extra yep, I see what
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: you mean. An extra step and a very difficult step.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: I might add, to burn a human body. I guess
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: there's something doctor Daniel by R, I need to shrink again.
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: There's something that seems so wrong, devilish to burn, put
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: a match to a human body, to flesh. There's just
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: there's just something abhorrent and repellent about that. What is it? Well,
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: then again, Nancy, it takes a certain kind of mind
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: stat to plan a murder and take someone out, So
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: I think it's all part of that. I think it's
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: all part of that ability to not see someone as
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: a living being, but to see them as an object
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: that's getting in the way of something. Okay, then I
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: don't know. I'm not verbalizing this very well obviously to
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: Nema Ramani, Okay, you take off your defense hat. I'll
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: take off my prosecutor hat just for a moment. Would
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: you agree that shooting somebody bam, it's over in an instant.
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: But the cover up. Have you ever had cases where
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: the body has been put in lie or dismembered or burned,
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: or some you know, intricate method of hiding or destroying
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: the body. I think that takes a whole another mindset. Nema,
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: I don't know what the right words are to describe this.
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: But have you ever had cases like that? And you
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: just think, what? Why would you go through all this?
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: Like putting acid on a body or burning a body? It's,
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: as doctor Pope said, another step, but it's fiendish. Well, Nancy,
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: I see a drug cartel prosecutor. So I've seen it
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: all and thank god, I don't do any defense worth
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: but I've had a lot of these cases, a lot
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: of cases or bodies have been dismembered, so not surprising
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: to see it here. The psyche behind the dismemberment or
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: the destruction of a body is something I will never understand.
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: Back to levipage Crime online dot Com investigative reporter. Now
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: the FBI is in on the case. Why because that
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: opens up a whole nother Pandora's box. Yes, the FBI
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: has said that they will assist the local police with
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: anything needed in this case. And Nancy, her body was burned,
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: but police were able to get fingerprints, and they were
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: also able to identify a specific tattoo unique to her
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: that was on the body. Do you know what the
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: tattoo is? No, they have not revealed what the tattoo work.
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: So whoever tried to burn her body did not do
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: a very good job at it. We wait as justice
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: unfolds for professional gambler Susie Zoo. Nancy Gray's crime story,
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: signing off good bye friend,