Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #1058 - NAPLAN Nation: Failing our Kids

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#1058 - NAPLAN Nation: Failing our Kids · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:02
Speaker 1: It's their Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
0:06
Speaker 1: time poor parent who just once answers Now. NAPLAN, the
0:14
Speaker 1: National Assessment Program Literacy and Numeracy test results have been
0:18
Speaker 1: published in the last week. Headlines are screaming at us,
0:20
Speaker 1: telling us that we have reasons to be concerned if
0:23
Speaker 1: you are somehow unfamiliar with NAPLAN. It's a series of
0:26
Speaker 1: standardized tests given to austrained students in years three, five, seven,
0:29
Speaker 1: and nine to measure their skills in reading, writing, and
0:33
Speaker 1: language conventions like spelling and grammar and punctuation, and also numeracy.
0:38
Speaker 1: It aims to provide insights into student achievement informed teaching
0:42
Speaker 1: and learning programs across the country. The ABC and Sidney
0:46
Speaker 1: Morning Herald headlines were nearly identical. They pretty much said,
0:48
Speaker 1: I quote, one in three students failing to meet English
0:52
Speaker 1: and maths standards napland data shows close quote. Career Mail
0:56
Speaker 1: called it a NAPLAN alarm, and other state based publications
1:00
Speaker 1: we're also talking about how scary things are, and even
1:02
Speaker 1: the Prime Minister, Anthony Orberanezi called the results quote alarming.
1:07
Speaker 1: Natasha Bita is a Walkley Award winner for journalism and
1:11
Speaker 1: the education editor at The Australian and Natasha joins me
1:16
Speaker 1: to talk Napland on their Happy Families podcast. Now, Natasha,
1:20
Speaker 1: before we talk results, walk me through how napland is scored,
1:23
Speaker 1: because it's changed over the last few years. It used
1:25
Speaker 1: to be ten bands, now it's four bands. What do
1:27
Speaker 1: they mean, hi, Dustin.
1:30
Speaker 2: They changed it last year after COVID They figured that
1:33
Speaker 2: was a good time to draw a line under the
1:37
Speaker 2: more than ten years of testing and starting new and
1:41
Speaker 2: so we have a band called Need Additional Support, which
1:46
Speaker 2: is the lowest band, and we've got one in ten
1:49
Speaker 2: children in that band, so they need remedial help to
1:52
Speaker 2: catch up. We've got one enforced student who are developing.
1:57
Speaker 2: Now developing is just a very polite way of playing
2:00
Speaker 2: to the expected standards. And then we've got in total,
2:06
Speaker 2: you know, one in three children follow that level. And
2:09
Speaker 2: then we've got strong, which is it varies between reading
2:14
Speaker 2: and mass somewhere between you know, one third and sixty
2:17
Speaker 2: percent of students depending on the year and the type
2:20
Speaker 2: of chests, and they are meeting the standard. And then
2:23
Speaker 2: you've got exceeding the standard. And again that's all over
2:26
Speaker 2: the place, depending on whether it's mass or numerously or
2:30
Speaker 2: year nine or year three.
2:32
Speaker 1: So when I hear you go through these results and
2:34
Speaker 1: talk about these bands, one tenth of students just not
2:38
Speaker 1: meeting the standard at all. I mean, obviously we don't
2:40
Speaker 1: want that, but in a community, in a society as
2:43
Speaker 1: big as ours, I don't know that that's something that
2:46
Speaker 1: we need to be wringing our hands about or being
2:50
Speaker 1: surprised about. Because with there, when there is that bigger population,
2:53
Speaker 1: you're going to have a certain group that just can't
2:56
Speaker 1: get there. We're going to talk about them shortly interested
3:00
Speaker 1: in this quarter or so of kids who are in
3:02
Speaker 1: that development band. That is the polight way of saying
3:06
Speaker 1: they are just not really where they are supposed to be.
3:11
Speaker 1: Why was the media going so crazy about how poorly
3:14
Speaker 1: Austrailed students performed Because when I looked at it across
3:18
Speaker 1: the board, I saw a generally stable story from previous
3:21
Speaker 1: years and a generally satisfactory story. We're not we're not
3:25
Speaker 1: smashing it out of the park. But it didn't seem
3:27
Speaker 1: like this was any better or any worse than previous years.
3:31
Speaker 2: Well, I think that's the problem. It's no, it's not
3:33
Speaker 2: getting any better. I've been covering that plan since it
3:36
Speaker 2: started in two thousand and eight. And I think we
3:39
Speaker 2: have a real problem in our society because the kids
3:42
Speaker 2: who are in those lower bands are most likely to
3:45
Speaker 2: be disadvantage. So they've got parents who are unemployed, parents
3:49
Speaker 2: who dropped out of high school themselves. They might have
3:53
Speaker 2: learning difficulties, or a lot of those tips of learning
3:56
Speaker 2: difficulties are exempty tests, so you know, they don't show.
4:00
Speaker 2: And the other problem is that it doesn't get better
4:03
Speaker 2: through the years. So if you've got you know, one
4:05
Speaker 2: of three kids in year three who are struggling with reading,
4:09
Speaker 2: they must patch up by the end of primary school,
4:11
Speaker 2: otherwise you're pouring them into high school. Let's start in
4:14
Speaker 2: high school and I haven't mastered reading or masks and
4:17
Speaker 2: they're given really complex subjects to do, so then get
4:21
Speaker 2: really stressed out, they get really dis engaged, they don't
4:24
Speaker 2: finish school, or they'll muck up, or they get very anxious.
4:28
Speaker 2: And I just think that's wrong because when I went
4:30
Speaker 2: to school back in the Jurassic Aid, you know, most
4:34
Speaker 2: of the kids, we all knew how to read really well,
4:37
Speaker 2: and we had a pretty good basic mass and that
4:41
Speaker 2: gave give you a very good foundation for other learning.
4:45
Speaker 1: I don't have the data in front of me for
4:47
Speaker 1: the question I'm going to ask. It's a question without notice,
4:50
Speaker 1: but I can't remember what the numbers were in the
4:53
Speaker 1: latest round. But it was an astonishingly astonishingly that might
4:57
Speaker 1: be the wrong word I was. I was surprised. So
5:00
Speaker 1: I was genuinely surprised about how many kids in Australia
5:02
Speaker 1: who are in high school actually cannot read.
5:07
Speaker 2: Well. It's one inn eight boys is starting, you know,
5:10
Speaker 2: high school in year seven needing remedial reading instructions. Now,
5:14
Speaker 2: I just think that that's not fair on the kids.
5:18
Speaker 2: You know. I'm not having to go at kids. I
5:20
Speaker 2: just think we need to be helping these children because
5:23
Speaker 2: something is not working and it's getting worse, and it's
5:26
Speaker 2: most likely to affect children with parents who cannot afford tutoring.
5:31
Speaker 2: They can't afford to take them to a psychologist, they
5:33
Speaker 2: can't afford to put them into a private school where
5:35
Speaker 2: they might have better support for them, and it's.
5:39
Speaker 1: Just not a fair go Yeah, Natasha, that you've mentioned
5:43
Speaker 1: a range of reasons that those results might be lower,
5:45
Speaker 1: but there's also a systemic and chronic disadvantage, and there's
5:49
Speaker 1: also a whole lot of mental health and alcohol and
5:52
Speaker 1: drug and relationship challenges that are doing that as well.
5:54
Speaker 1: I mean, there are some areas of the population where
5:56
Speaker 1: we see enduring differences. Can you describe those beyond what
6:02
Speaker 1: we've already discussed.
6:04
Speaker 2: Well, look, just as an example, if you're an Aboriginal
6:08
Speaker 2: u Toorist trade islander, a kid who's fifteen years old
6:11
Speaker 2: in year nine, on average, you will have the reading
6:14
Speaker 2: ability of another Australian child who's ten years old in
6:17
Speaker 2: year five. But that is just totally unfair and totally unacceptable.
6:23
Speaker 2: And if you're a parent and you've got a university
6:26
Speaker 2: degree or a professional job that pays well, your kids
6:29
Speaker 2: are likely to be two years ahead of children whose
6:32
Speaker 2: parents dropped out of high school or don't have a job. Now,
6:35
Speaker 2: I strongly believe that education is the way that these
6:39
Speaker 2: children can climb out of disadvantage. But we've just got
6:43
Speaker 2: the cycle of disadvantage going on, and for me, it
6:47
Speaker 2: comes back to literacy.
6:49
Speaker 1: Kind of prompts an even bigger question. I mean, I
6:52
Speaker 1: listen to those those stats and I think if they
6:54
Speaker 1: weren't Aboriginal kids, if they were Caucasian kids living on
6:58
Speaker 1: the coast and we saw those numbers, would there would
7:01
Speaker 1: be just an outcry, It would be completely unacceptable. And
7:05
Speaker 1: yet part of me also thinks, to what extent is
7:07
Speaker 1: this the role of the government and the education system.
7:11
Speaker 1: There has to be a level of individual responsibility where
7:13
Speaker 1: parents are contributing and valuing education and telling the kids
7:18
Speaker 1: to get to school and supporting them to do that.
7:20
Speaker 1: Probably a bigger conversation than what we have time for today.
7:23
Speaker 1: It's just such a complicated and tricky area. I have
7:26
Speaker 1: a hypothesis though, and I want to get your take
7:28
Speaker 1: on this. There's a lot of talk about boys specifically
7:32
Speaker 1: struggling in nap Land, particularly in year nine, and as
7:36
Speaker 1: I looked at the data that I was able to attain,
7:39
Speaker 1: and I was thinking about a lot of boys and
7:42
Speaker 1: what they were like when I was in year nine, which,
7:44
Speaker 1: as you said, back in the I don't know the
7:46
Speaker 1: BC age before computers. I wasn't one of them. But
7:49
Speaker 1: here's what I'd observe. If something wasn't important to them,
7:52
Speaker 1: they'd completely sabotage it, so they'd walk the cross country
7:55
Speaker 1: instead of running it. They'd swim underwater for the whole
7:57
Speaker 1: lap in the freestyle fifty meter race rather than Swinger properly,
8:01
Speaker 1: they would walk out of tests two minutes after they began,
8:03
Speaker 1: if they even showed up at all. Is there any evidence, Natasha,
8:07
Speaker 1: that nap Land as a test just doesn't feel relevant
8:12
Speaker 1: or meaningful or important to our teens and that this
8:15
Speaker 1: could at least partly explain some of the poor results,
8:18
Speaker 1: especially when we look at when we look at year
8:20
Speaker 1: nine and boys.
8:23
Speaker 2: But I think you're making a good point. I'm not
8:25
Speaker 2: aware of any research in Australia with the Napland test,
8:28
Speaker 2: but there's an international test called Pieza which is run
8:31
Speaker 2: by the OLYCD and they test seven hundred thousand fifteen
8:35
Speaker 2: year olds across eighty one country I think every three
8:38
Speaker 2: or four years, well it might be every five years.
8:40
Speaker 2: But they did a study a couple of years ago
8:43
Speaker 2: because they had the same concerns, and they found that
8:46
Speaker 2: the fifteen year old boys were far more disengaged in
8:50
Speaker 2: these tests than the girls and this was leading to
8:52
Speaker 2: lower results. So that is also a probleise moment. You know,
8:59
Speaker 2: I don't know boys. I do tend to kick in
9:01
Speaker 2: a bit later, I think in terms of their engagement
9:04
Speaker 2: with school, not not all of them, but quite a
9:06
Speaker 2: lot of them. They will be late started, you know,
9:09
Speaker 2: but until some measurement is done, I really don't know.
9:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, even thinking about what you're saying, in reflecting on
9:15
Speaker 1: my experience, I hated school. I was completely disengaged from
9:18
Speaker 1: my parents back in the late eighties early nineties were
9:20
Speaker 1: spending over ten thousand dollars a year to send me
9:22
Speaker 1: to Center Plast Grammar School, and I just I had
9:24
Speaker 1: no interest in it. And the reason for that was
9:26
Speaker 1: because I wanted to do other things with my life
9:28
Speaker 1: and I was able to do those things and then
9:31
Speaker 1: went back to school in my late twenties and kind
9:34
Speaker 1: of pulled it together academically and educationally. And I often think,
9:38
Speaker 1: if kids are that disengaged, is school the best place
9:41
Speaker 1: for them to me this across the various states, Natasha,
9:51
Speaker 1: particularly in low performing states like Queensland, there's a lot
9:55
Speaker 1: of anger about how education works. We've even touched on
9:58
Speaker 1: a little bit of that in our DISCUSSI and so
10:00
Speaker 1: far as somebody who has been writing on education for
10:05
Speaker 1: such a long time, now, what are your thoughts. Do
10:07
Speaker 1: you believe that that the current educational system in these
10:11
Speaker 1: places is failing our children? And if it is, where
10:14
Speaker 1: are we going wrong?
10:16
Speaker 2: Look I do. I think it comes back to again,
10:19
Speaker 2: how we pick children to read. I remember ten years
10:22
Speaker 2: why I'm so passionate about this. Ten years ago I
10:24
Speaker 2: would go to a local primary school and help little
10:28
Speaker 2: kids learn to read. The kids in grade one and two, right,
10:32
Speaker 2: and there was a little girl from a micro background
10:36
Speaker 2: and we were reading a book and the picture of
10:38
Speaker 2: a rabbit and the word says rabbit. And when she
10:41
Speaker 2: read it, she said bunny. And I said, okay, yeah, look,
10:44
Speaker 2: bunny is one word for this word. It's rabbit. Let's
10:47
Speaker 2: sound out so it starts. Can you see what it
10:49
Speaker 2: starts with? It starts with ah. And I started trying
10:53
Speaker 2: to pick her a fond for medical sounding out of
10:56
Speaker 2: this word, and the teacher day came running up to me.
10:59
Speaker 2: I went very much at me and said, you can't
11:01
Speaker 2: do that. That's not just let her let her look
11:03
Speaker 2: at the picture, because it's bad for their self esteem. Now,
11:07
Speaker 2: I think what is bad which you'll self esteem? It's
11:10
Speaker 2: going through life not knowing how to read and having
11:12
Speaker 2: to guess everything by looking at pictures. And this is
11:15
Speaker 2: why I'm very angry about it, because I think map
11:18
Speaker 2: plan is not measuring success in physics. It is measuring
11:22
Speaker 2: success in the basics of reading, writing, soling, grammar, punctuations
11:27
Speaker 2: and mathematics. Right, So if you can't master those in
11:32
Speaker 2: primary school, you haven't got much of a hope of
11:34
Speaker 2: succeeding in high school. I think high schools, increasingly, we're
11:38
Speaker 2: seeing it a lot in Queensland, are starting the cadence
11:41
Speaker 2: or children's different needs. So they've got trade schools. I
11:45
Speaker 2: think it's fabulous where it's mainly boys. We'll go into
11:49
Speaker 2: your ten and I'll start learning a trade at school.
11:52
Speaker 2: Wasn't a fabulous But the thing is they still need
11:54
Speaker 2: these basics of literacy and numeracy. You can't be an
11:58
Speaker 2: electrician if you don't understand mats. You can't be a
12:02
Speaker 2: carpenter if you can't measure. These are still basics fits
12:06
Speaker 2: for everybody. The other thing is well being. You know
12:09
Speaker 2: they're late to the party with trying to improve children's
12:13
Speaker 2: well being. But again my argument is we wouldn't have
12:16
Speaker 2: so many children in high school struggling and hating school
12:20
Speaker 2: if they were taught properly in primary school. Now Queenslane
12:23
Speaker 2: is still the only state which is giving an old
12:26
Speaker 2: version of the National curriculum, so you know, governments spent
12:30
Speaker 2: years trying to fix the curriculum to make it a
12:32
Speaker 2: lot simpler and clearer so it would be easier for
12:36
Speaker 2: teachers to teach, easier for parents to understand, and Queenslans
12:40
Speaker 2: decided that it's going to wait until the end of
12:43
Speaker 2: twenty twenty seven to introduce it properly or the other
12:47
Speaker 2: states are doing it this that wild has just launched
12:49
Speaker 2: this fantastic curriculum and it's filled with facts and knowledge
12:53
Speaker 2: because I'm not sure how many other parents have issues
12:56
Speaker 2: where you cannot comprehend what your child is meant to
12:58
Speaker 2: be doing at school with book like some of the
13:01
Speaker 2: assignments even in primary school, it's the so full of
13:04
Speaker 2: jargons that no one can understand what to be doing.
13:08
Speaker 2: I just think we need to go back to the
13:10
Speaker 2: fundamentals in primary school, if we teach them fundamental reading
13:14
Speaker 2: and writing and make them love love books and love reading.
13:18
Speaker 2: Screens is a huge problem. If I ruled the world,
13:21
Speaker 2: I would unfluke the Internet. I just think it's caused
13:24
Speaker 2: so much damage to children's learning and to children's mental health.
13:30
Speaker 2: I think it's one of the biggest issues facing parents.
13:32
Speaker 2: Queensland only decided this year that it would ban smartphones
13:37
Speaker 2: in classmens, and we all know kids are just using
13:40
Speaker 2: their smartphones and hot spotting all sorts of inappropriate things.
13:44
Speaker 2: They're not looking at the teacher, They're looking at stuff
13:46
Speaker 2: on their phone. I don't know why Queensland resisted this
13:49
Speaker 2: for so many years and left it up to individual schools.
13:52
Speaker 2: In New South Wales, the new Education Ministers their crew
13:56
Speaker 2: car is amazing. You have a child in the seven
14:00
Speaker 2: and the first thing she did was in about a
14:02
Speaker 2: wik of taking on the job, was banded smartphones in school.
14:06
Speaker 2: I asked her what she said, because my own son
14:09
Speaker 2: was so against it. I reckoned it must be a
14:12
Speaker 2: very good idea, and she said that they are now.
14:15
Speaker 2: But they are now. Side said principles love it. They
14:17
Speaker 2: say they're seeing boys talking to each other in the playgrounds.
14:21
Speaker 2: They're actually talking to each other instead of looking at
14:23
Speaker 2: screens and bullying each other and looking at inappropriate social media.
14:28
Speaker 2: And they're reading books like this is what we need
14:30
Speaker 2: our children to be doing at school. I think there's
14:32
Speaker 2: too much pressure on them in primary school. If we
14:35
Speaker 2: just stick to the basics, make them love learning, make
14:38
Speaker 2: them want to be at school, let them have a
14:40
Speaker 2: bit of fun, makes them learning interesting and relevant. We
14:43
Speaker 2: will solve half our problems.
14:45
Speaker 1: Listening to you say that, I'm torn between two thoughts.
14:48
Speaker 1: Number one, Natasha, beta for Education Minister or PM, and
14:52
Speaker 1: especially the unplug the Internet thing. But more than that,
14:55
Speaker 1: what you described, especially in the first part of your answer,
14:58
Speaker 1: is a fundamental reliance helping children to feel capable and
15:01
Speaker 1: competent when they're in the classroom or when they're doing
15:03
Speaker 1: anything that requires a level of literacy or numeracy. And
15:08
Speaker 1: it's a basic psychological need. When you do not feel competent,
15:11
Speaker 1: your motivation goes down, your well being goes down, and
15:13
Speaker 1: you avoid rather than approach the things that require that skill. Natasha,
15:18
Speaker 1: I've been a long time, a long time and quite
15:21
Speaker 1: vocal critic of napland. My criticisms pretty varied, but usually
15:25
Speaker 1: include the fact that results are shared with parents. I
15:27
Speaker 1: just don't think that it's helpful to be telling parents,
15:30
Speaker 1: especially when it was the ten bands what banned your
15:32
Speaker 1: kids are in that they're used in tables that allow
15:35
Speaker 1: parents to compare schools, which also makes it into an
15:38
Speaker 1: arms race with schools and turns napland or marketing exercise
15:41
Speaker 1: for a lot of schools as well, and relatedly that
15:44
Speaker 1: some schools ask certain children to not sit the test
15:47
Speaker 1: because of how it's going to impact on their school's results.
15:50
Speaker 1: So I have a neighbor just a couple of doors
15:52
Speaker 1: down whose child goes to a quite prestigious school not
15:55
Speaker 1: far from me on the Sunshine Coast, and she was
15:57
Speaker 1: specifically asked to keep her child home from school for
16:00
Speaker 1: napland this year, precisely for that reason. In addition to that,
16:04
Speaker 1: there's some reliability in valid concerns around it. But if
16:07
Speaker 1: we could deal with those issues, I see some value
16:09
Speaker 1: in schools and governments having access to the data that
16:11
Speaker 1: napland provides that they can guide those curriculum decisions. Will
16:15
Speaker 1: you do something for me, as somebody who is pretty
16:17
Speaker 1: antagonistic towards napland. Can you make the argument that napland
16:21
Speaker 1: is worth one hundred million plus dollars that the government
16:23
Speaker 1: spends on it each year or is my argument actually
16:26
Speaker 1: persuasive and worth the paper that it's printed on.
16:30
Speaker 2: Okay, first of all, I'm writing a piece for tomorrow's
16:32
Speaker 2: paper which is based on a University of New South
16:36
Speaker 2: Wales Business School study which shows that schools may be
16:39
Speaker 2: manipulating the naplan data. Cool?
16:42
Speaker 1: You mean you mean I was right? What do you know?
16:45
Speaker 2: You're right?
16:45
Speaker 1: You're right?
16:46
Speaker 2: And it's who guess at private schools and that you know,
16:50
Speaker 2: if students aren't performing well, we're suddenly we're dawn from
16:53
Speaker 2: the test. Now, I think that is absolutely a disgusting
16:57
Speaker 2: thing to do well.
16:58
Speaker 1: It's mendacious and it's cynically in the extreme.
17:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, I am a very strong supporter of mac planned.
17:05
Speaker 2: Before we had a NAP plan, there was no transparency.
17:09
Speaker 2: We didn't know which schools were struggling. I'm not saying
17:12
Speaker 2: schools that are struggling to just be left, you know,
17:15
Speaker 2: to you know, descend into more disadvantage. We should be
17:19
Speaker 2: doing something to help them. We should also be looking
17:21
Speaker 2: at the schools that are doing well and ask you
17:23
Speaker 2: why they're doing well? What are they doing that other
17:27
Speaker 2: schools could do. There needs to be a lot more communication,
17:30
Speaker 2: and I disagree. I think as a parent, a maclan
17:34
Speaker 2: card is much more clear than a report card. Report
17:38
Speaker 2: cards often teachers don't want same thing negative right, So
17:43
Speaker 2: you don't know that your child doesn't know how to
17:45
Speaker 2: diffractions for example, or doesn't you know isn't reading to
17:49
Speaker 2: the required level. You've seen it on a map plan
17:51
Speaker 2: and if you are an engaged parent, you go, holy moly,
17:55
Speaker 2: I better I better thought this out. You know you're off,
17:58
Speaker 2: you know, no more Fortnite until you start reading books
18:01
Speaker 2: or I'm going to help you all. Get a tutor,
18:04
Speaker 2: or I'll read to you. How can I help you?
18:07
Speaker 2: A lot of parents, As you said, there is a
18:09
Speaker 2: lot of dysfunction in our society, and we cannot blame
18:12
Speaker 2: kids for parents' decisions, right, But this is where schools
18:16
Speaker 2: can step in, and I think that we do as
18:19
Speaker 2: a community have a responsibility to help children whose own
18:23
Speaker 2: parents can't or won't help them, so we need to
18:27
Speaker 2: be assisting them. And you know, there's a saying that
18:30
Speaker 2: if it's not measured, it's not managed. And that's how
18:33
Speaker 2: I feel about MAC planned. I get annoyed when I
18:35
Speaker 2: see people carrying on about how stressful it is, because
18:40
Speaker 2: this is parents and students stressing your kids are I
18:43
Speaker 2: explain it like, well, when you go to the doctor,
18:45
Speaker 2: they meant you to see how full you are and
18:47
Speaker 2: whether you're average for your age, or you know, whether
18:50
Speaker 2: you know maybe you're not eating enough protein or whatever.
18:53
Speaker 2: You take your child to the dentist for preventative health
18:57
Speaker 2: checks so that you can get the kids queen before
19:01
Speaker 2: they get fillings neat feelings. I mean, it's just an
19:04
Speaker 2: example of that plan should not be any different. You
19:07
Speaker 2: are measuring your child's learning in the basics, and if
19:11
Speaker 2: there's a problem, you've got a chance to sort it
19:13
Speaker 2: out before it gets worse. The problem is that it's
19:16
Speaker 2: not getting any better. So you would think that if
19:19
Speaker 2: we've got one in three kids in years free struggling,
19:21
Speaker 2: you would hope that by year five, and definitely by
19:24
Speaker 2: year seven you've reduced that proportion, so they're going into
19:27
Speaker 2: high school that are equipped. But the problem is you've
19:30
Speaker 2: got more kids struggling in year nine. So what do
19:32
Speaker 2: you think is going to happen to those kids when
19:34
Speaker 2: they hit year eleven and twelve. We have got the
19:36
Speaker 2: lowest high school completion rate on records. Kids are voting
19:40
Speaker 2: with their feet, there are school refusals, and sometimes I
19:43
Speaker 2: just can't blame them, you know, like, I just think
19:46
Speaker 2: we have just made everything so complicated and stressful. A
19:51
Speaker 2: school should be a place to hang with your mate, yes,
19:54
Speaker 2: to learn, but it's so high scafe these days.
20:00
Speaker 1: Listening to your response we see napland quite differently. You're
20:04
Speaker 1: much more for it than I am. I'm pretty much
20:07
Speaker 1: against it. However, it seems that what I'm concerned about
20:11
Speaker 1: you're also highlighting. And if we could fix those things,
20:13
Speaker 1: that is the pressure on the students and the manipulation
20:18
Speaker 1: by schools and maybe some of the reliability issues, we
20:21
Speaker 1: could actually have a test that provided people with meaningful
20:24
Speaker 1: data that allowed us to assess what's really going on
20:28
Speaker 1: and improve education. And I just love hearing the clarity
20:32
Speaker 1: and the consistency between both of our goals. As you've described,
20:36
Speaker 1: we're looking for the same thing. Natasha, You've been really
20:39
Speaker 1: generous with your time. I've really enjoyed the conversation. Last question,
20:42
Speaker 1: Teacher shortages, teacher well beeing burnout major concerns in the
20:47
Speaker 1: education sector right across Australia. How do you think that
20:49
Speaker 1: these issues are impacting student learning outcomes and contributing to
20:54
Speaker 1: the current napland challenges. What needs to be done when
20:59
Speaker 1: it comes to teacher well Beeing burnout.
21:02
Speaker 2: Issues, Well, it's just a vicious fight, lisn't it. If
21:05
Speaker 2: you've got children who are disengaged and then become disruptive,
21:09
Speaker 2: they're not exactly going to be a pleasure to teach.
21:11
Speaker 2: Teachers feel it's not their job to also be counselors
21:15
Speaker 2: and welfare workers, etc. But I still maintain that if
21:20
Speaker 2: we can fix these things up in primary school, these
21:23
Speaker 2: will get better over time. And you know, I want
21:26
Speaker 2: to have a good shout out to teachers. I think
21:28
Speaker 2: they are fabulous. I think they do a really important
21:31
Speaker 2: job in society, and I think that if only some
21:35
Speaker 2: of the bureaucrats and governments would just listen and make
21:39
Speaker 2: things a little simpler, like what they've done in your
21:41
Speaker 2: South Wales with their shillibus is going to make a
21:44
Speaker 2: huge difference for teachers. But you know in Queensland they're
21:48
Speaker 2: stuck teaching something that's was made redundant two years ago.
21:52
Speaker 2: Can you imagine at a hospital, say a medical researcher says, oh,
21:56
Speaker 2: we've got a new way to treat cancer. The old
21:58
Speaker 2: drugs you've been using they're not actually helping cure cancer
22:02
Speaker 2: which had stopped using them. The hospitals don't say, oh, yeah,
22:05
Speaker 2: we're just going to give the doctors six years to
22:08
Speaker 2: get up to speed with the new thing before we
22:10
Speaker 2: introduce it. That doesn't happen in the medical profession, So
22:14
Speaker 2: why is it happening in education? If we know that
22:17
Speaker 2: using phonic which became very unpopular for reasons, I will
22:21
Speaker 2: never comprehend. You know, we will have magic words now
22:24
Speaker 2: or you've got to you know, look and guests and
22:27
Speaker 2: memorize words. It doesn't work for children which select at all.
22:30
Speaker 2: They will never learn to read if you don't teach
22:33
Speaker 2: them phonics and founding out letters and sounds, which was
22:37
Speaker 2: done right up until for the nineteen seventeen I don't
22:40
Speaker 2: understand why, you know, ideology has captured our classrooms which
22:46
Speaker 2: we've put the children at the center and look at
22:49
Speaker 2: their needs. We would be simplifying things.
22:51
Speaker 1: Natasha Beida is a Walkley Award winning journalist and the
22:55
Speaker 1: Education editor at The Australian. This has been a lot
22:59
Speaker 1: of podcasts and Natasha, but I've loved listening to you
23:02
Speaker 1: and I'm so grateful for this conversation. Really appreciate your time.
23:05
Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank bike.
23:07
Speaker 1: The Happy Family Podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from
23:10
Speaker 1: Bridge Media. Thank you for your great work, Justin, really
23:12
Speaker 1: appreciate it. Tomorrow on The Happy Families Podcast, answering your
23:15
Speaker 1: questions about kids in reality TV shows and conforming Conforming
23:21
Speaker 1: in kindergarten. Carl wait to join you tomorrow for those
23:24
Speaker 1: conversations on the Happy Families podcast. For more information about
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Speaker 1: making your family happy, up sign up for our newsletter
23:30
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