Latest / Come Together with Ephraim Herschmann / Science Series 6: Sidney Perkowitz / AI & Replicating Humanity / UFO’s / Science Ed & Sci-fi

Transcript

Science Series 6: Sidney Perkowitz / AI & Replicating Humanity / UFO’s / Science Ed & Sci-fi · Come Together with Ephraim Herschmann

0:01
Welcome to another episode of Come Together.
0:14
Doctor Sidney Perkowitz, welcome to the show.
0:17
I'm so happy to have you on. How are you today?
0:19
Thank you for a pleasure to be here and you're looking hell and
0:23
hard to yourself. Thank you very much.
0:25
I appreciate that. I, I'm particularly excited to
0:28
talk to you because my whole life I thought I was bad at
0:32
science until I've found better ways or ways that spoke more to
0:38
me about the way that the material is being handed over
0:42
or, you know, I don't know the different types of formats.
0:45
And then I realized I didn't hate science.
0:47
I really enjoyed it. I just was not good at doing it
0:50
in the, you know, typical classroom setting.
0:52
And, and I see that you spent a ton of your career really
0:56
focused on, you know, aside from actual science and research,
1:01
alternative forms of education. And so I'm really excited to be
1:03
able to hear about your experience and what got you into
1:06
that. And it was interesting to pick
1:08
up on why you said to find a different way to do science that
1:11
reached out more to people who aren't scientists.
1:15
And that's something that needs to be done.
1:17
So we're on the same wavelength on that.
1:20
My personal story is I I love scientific research.
1:25
I was a pretty good teacher. But when I hit age 50, I thought
1:28
it was time to look in a different direction.
1:31
I'd always wanted to write, so I started writing that year. 50th
1:35
birthday is a big deal. I'd also published my 100th
1:39
research paper. I figured that was a good
1:41
landmark. Congratulations that.
1:44
Was awesome, yeah. So see that.
1:47
So you started writing and was it daunting to switch careers?
1:52
How do you want to go about tackling, you know, like, how'd
1:55
you decide to be creative in the fashion that you were?
1:58
You know, I mean, I feel like a lot of, a lot of people,
2:00
especially if they were doing research or they were in the
2:02
university setting, they would just kind of write a book, maybe
2:04
a textbook or, you know, maybe they'll, they'll, you know,
2:06
their self, you know, they, they publish a book about what they,
2:08
what they think. But you've done some fun things
2:11
like writing, you know, scripts for, for plays and, you know,
2:14
and, and, and film things. What?
2:16
How did you get involved in that?
2:17
It was partly that I hadn't done all the scientific writing.
2:21
I published, as I said, that many papers and some books that
2:25
was purely for other scientists that were technical books, and I
2:29
figured I had mastered that kind of writing.
2:32
I really wanted to do something new.
2:34
Also, as a kid I was a big reader, and although science
2:38
always attracted me, Joe did the great fiction writers I was.
2:44
I was a big fan of of many of the household names that are
2:48
considered great storytellers, and somehow that was a second
2:52
ambition for me. So it seemed natural to drift
2:56
into writing. But doing science.
2:59
I don't think I'm creative enough to write a novel.
3:01
I am creative enough to write about science in an interesting
3:04
way, or so I hope. That's amazing.
3:08
Well, I bet, I bet. The truth is I haven't, I
3:10
haven't read any of it yet, but I, I do, I do have to check it
3:14
out. But I mean, I see that there's a
3:17
tie. I mean, your website is just
3:19
filled with, with different fun projects that you've done and
3:23
circling back on the your, your appreciation for science fiction
3:29
or for science in general growing up.
3:31
I was talking to a gentleman the other day and I'm so upset
3:35
because I forget, I'm forgetting his name.
3:39
And he was a scientist and a science, a science comedian.
3:42
He was, you know, he, he, he was very, very funny and he, most of
3:45
his jokes were geared around actual science.
3:48
And that was another stick that he did that from a scientific
3:51
perspective. It's really important to have
3:54
these fun fake worlds, you know, like these sci-fi worlds that
3:59
encourage scientists to try to bring that fiction into reality
4:04
and to, you know, inspires people and gives them ideas for
4:08
a world that could be. And then how to kind of, you
4:10
know, back engineer it and reverse and reverse track on it.
4:14
Do you find that to be the case? Absolutely.
4:16
It's a great point. I thought at some point we'd end
4:19
up talking about what I think about science fiction, and what
4:23
you just said ties into that. If you go to a science fiction
4:26
film, science and it may or may not be very active accurate,
4:29
often it's but kids who watch it get inspired, they get turned
4:34
on. There's a famous research in
4:37
robotics who says the minute she saw R2D2, she said she wanted to
4:42
do that. So that's exactly the story that
4:45
you said. It can be a great incentive.
4:48
It's so it's not necessarily spreading correct science, but
4:51
that's secondary toward to inspiring or exciting people
4:56
about it. Yeah, definitely.
4:58
I saw, I forgot I was reading a book.
5:00
I did a podcast with a gentleman and a journalist named Tom
5:04
Sucker and he wrote and he writes about Hollywood's
5:07
relationship to various government agencies
5:10
historically. And you know, some of you know,
5:12
some of it for better, some of it for worse.
5:14
But one of the very interesting phenomenon, for example, was
5:16
like with Top Gun, when Top Gun originally came out in theaters.
5:20
I think you know, the the Air Force set up some, you know,
5:24
stands outside the movie theaters and in a touch for
5:27
recruiting. And if anyone had any questions,
5:29
I've been to the movie. They were interested in pursuing
5:31
a career and enlistment went up like a couple of 100%, you know,
5:36
in the weeks, in the weeks following.
5:38
I mean, that's incredible. You know that there's no
5:40
scientific event you could name. Book, podcast, movie, whatever
5:45
that reaches as many people as one even middle, middle level
5:50
movie. It does not need to be the big
5:52
world's biggest blockbuster. You see millions of people, so
5:57
it's a tremendous channel to get the word out.
5:59
Yeah, yeah, certainly, certainly.
6:02
What were some specific movies that that that inspired you
6:05
growing up for for science, for for either creative purposes or
6:09
that genuinely interest interested you scientifically?
6:12
Well, for me it worked differently.
6:14
I'm old enough that that that we still that we still doing B
6:20
level science fiction movies and I mostly B level.
6:23
They were not major films. So some of the a lot of them
6:27
were fun. You even knew that the science
6:30
was wrong, completely wrong, but you enjoyed it anyway.
6:33
So I'm also got interested 1st through books.
6:37
There was an old science fiction author, Robert Heinlein, who was
6:40
my real favorite. He got me into it that way.
6:44
Eventually the films came along. 2001 certainly had its impact,
6:48
but by that time I was already a practicing scientist.
6:51
So there's a mixture of books and movies, but books had a huge
6:55
impact on me. Right, Right, right.
6:57
Right. Yeah.
6:58
And there's, and there's also, especially in this world of
7:00
science and, and this fictional world, building our imagination
7:04
tends to work a lot more in, you know, with a lot more vibrancy
7:08
than than a screen usually could, especially in the early
7:10
2000s or the 90s or 80s. For sure, Yeah.
7:14
And when you think about this, the wonderful special effects
7:18
you can do in the film, really no book can match that.
7:22
It's amazing what Hollywood does to make the dream seem real.
7:26
It's just phenomenal. CGI in a way, in a way is lost.
7:32
I think films depend on it a little too much and maybe forget
7:36
about things like characterization, but it's a
7:39
tremendous bonus for science fiction films.
7:42
You can have the weirdest idea and show it on screen in a
7:45
convincing and compelling way. That's marvelous.
7:48
Yeah, it's a ton of fun. And, and, and then there's, and
7:51
then there's various actual education purposes, right?
7:54
Because you have films that are there to kind of inspire new
7:57
ideas. And then there's films that are
7:58
there to teach people on a mass level about, about, you know,
8:04
about, about how using scientific science as solutions
8:07
to, to, to, to solving problems in the world.
8:09
And there was a, there's a very interesting phenomenon that if
8:13
you tend to see in films or television shows or any kind of,
8:19
you know, anything that would require an agency's regulation
8:22
or authority to publish. If you see, if you tend to see
8:25
NASA, their that the, the focus is, the focus is typically on
8:31
education. And if you see a Department of
8:34
Defense or you see the FBI or the CIA or Homeland Security,
8:38
then you tend to be in a little bit more of a Marvel esque
8:42
superhero world in which science, science and defence
8:45
and, and, and military in war unify and, and, and serve to, to
8:49
protect humanity. And it feels like though, like
8:51
those, like those, those a lot of these technologies are
8:53
starting to really become quite, I mean, they're, they're coming
8:57
to fruition in really cool ways. I've written a lot about about
9:03
what used to be in science fiction, ideas that have become
9:06
real. And we've reached the point, not
9:09
only science fiction ideas, fantasy ideas which are less
9:12
quoted in science. So Harry Potter has an
9:15
invisibility cloak people have made.
9:18
OK, they're not full size. They wouldn't cover Harry Potter
9:22
or you, you or me. But they can cover tiny objects
9:25
in such a way that they're invisible.
9:27
So that's just one example of fantasy becoming reality.
9:31
Yeah, it's very cool. I mean, I think that there's
9:34
even, I mean there, there kind of even the implication, I think
9:36
even within Harry Potter that it seems that the wizard, the
9:40
Wizards are more of an advanced, like they're, it seems like
9:43
they're just more advanced technologically.
9:45
It doesn't feel like the magic can't be attributed to science
9:48
in any kind of particular way, you know?
9:50
And there's this famous quote from I'm thinking who said it,
9:54
that if the technology is advanced enough, it it seems
9:58
like magic anyway. So right, it all merges, yeah.
10:04
Yeah, yeah, right. Sorry, please.
10:06
But but speaking as a scientist and as a person interested in
10:11
educating, it's nice to appreciate it and it feels like
10:14
magic. That's great.
10:16
It's fun. It's even better, I think, to
10:18
see it on the second level, which is I understand what's
10:21
really going on and what's happening in the real world
10:24
that's making this fantastic effect.
10:27
Certainly. Certainly I never appreciated
10:29
music to the same degree until I started playing an instrument,
10:32
you know? Exactly.
10:34
You get into the weeds and then you learn what's really going
10:37
on. I think you have a deeper
10:39
understanding what urinalogy is a great one.
10:42
Once you've learned I I played a little guitar.
10:45
I am not a great musician. I'll never even be a good
10:48
musician. But I appreciate it now what a
10:51
real musician can do. Certainly, yeah.
10:55
I mean, and I think that the more that, and that's part of
10:58
the fun of learning in general is, is, is the, is the
11:01
enthusiasm that comes with, with realizing that everything could
11:06
is this whole little universe in it of itself.
11:08
And no matter where you look, you can look, I I mean, you
11:11
could spend your entire life just researching your backyard
11:14
and just be absolutely blown away, you know, every, every,
11:16
every couple of days with what you discover.
11:18
And I mean, it's, it's incredible.
11:20
There's the Zen idea that that the master tells the student to
11:24
do something like put a vase in front of you, look at it for six
11:28
hours. You will learn things you didn't
11:31
believe you would have learned just by looking at the vase.
11:33
So it's it's that kind of thing. Yeah, definitely.
11:37
So can you tell me a little bit about the science that you were
11:39
that you were you were researching while while you were
11:42
practicing? Yeah, it was actually, it was a
11:45
science that you don't hear enough about and yet it's a
11:47
science that surrounds us. So at one level, physical is
11:51
about the biggest concepts the have, the universe began how
11:55
well and all of that. There's another level which
11:57
deals with the stuff actually around us, the matter.
12:01
I was a condensed matter physicist.
12:04
These I studied solids and liquids, not so much gases.
12:09
That's a little bit different. And that's the sciences behind
12:12
our entire technology. That's a scientist that gave us
12:16
integrated circuits for good and real.
12:19
It gave us integrated circuits and smartphones and everything
12:23
that's come out of that. So I I studied materials that
12:27
were interesting in themselves and also were good for
12:30
technology. That's the kind of science I
12:32
did. What motivated you just to to
12:34
head down that path? How'd you how'd you decide to
12:36
study that? And I actually was very much a
12:39
personal, personal choice. The people who do the, the large
12:43
scale science, huge telescopes and observatories, atom smashers
12:48
like CERN usually have to work in groups of 1050, a hundred, a
12:53
thousand. I wanted to do my own research
12:56
on my own tabletop, small scale, but all mine.
13:00
But then that's what and I was able to do that on what I did.
13:03
You can study the properties matter with tabletop equipment
13:07
and come up with deep science. So it was a personal appeal as
13:11
far as I'm concerned. And then, and then how would you
13:16
find your way wandering down particular paths?
13:18
And one of the reasons why I ask is because I've interviewed a
13:20
couple of scientists on the show and some of them have said that
13:25
they've started with a hypothesis or and you know,
13:27
something, they have a location that they want to get to and
13:30
then their careers about finding the way to get there.
13:33
And then there are those who said that they started with a
13:36
particular interest with no destination in mind and would
13:39
kind of just chase whatever spoke to them at the moment.
13:42
So whether that was, you know, neurology and music and the, and
13:46
the relationship between, you know, the, the, between music
13:50
therapy and, and park and Parkinson's or dementia and, and
13:56
you know, to, to cochlear implants and stuff like that.
13:58
And all of this was basically just following intuition.
14:00
How would you determine what to you know what what actual path
14:05
to follow? It was more the second one, not
14:08
starting with a hypothesis and wanting to pursue that and prove
14:12
it, but being in the general area.
14:14
I was interested in how material behaves, and I like the fact
14:18
that it affected real life right into technology.
14:23
So I that was my general area. And then you look for problems
14:26
that that need to be solved #1 #2 but every scientist will tell
14:33
you, but you don't. You don't realize until you're
14:35
in the game who will pay for you to do it.
14:38
So you've got to go and find the government grant.
14:41
So and what's that project like? Too, Yeah.
14:44
Can you explain, can you can you can you break down with the
14:46
process of getting funding as a scientist is like.
14:48
I'm sorry, say that again, do do I?
14:51
I'm sorry, can you explain what the process of getting funding
14:53
as a scientist is like? Yeah.
14:55
So if you're an academic, if you're an industrial scientist,
14:58
a company's paying you to do research.
15:01
And usually it's directed research they'd like.
15:03
They'd like to know the research will lead to a product for them.
15:06
So there's less choice, but there's often very good funding
15:10
for you. You can bet that Google puts a
15:12
lot of money into AI and Ford, Ford puts a lot of money into
15:17
making electric car, better electric cars and so on.
15:21
If you're an academia, you have to come with an idea.
15:24
You go to a government agency. The NIH is is the biggest one,
15:28
but there's National Science Foundation, there's Department
15:31
of Energy, and so on. A panel of experts reviews your
15:35
proposal. If they think it shows promise,
15:37
you get money that that's the basic ball game.
15:40
Wow, I see. And are they risk averse in this
15:43
project? How do how do they determine who
15:45
gets who gets what? That's really, Yeah.
15:48
That's really an excellent question.
15:50
There's constant debate about does this system encourage stuff
15:54
that's only sure to work, or does it encourage stuff that
15:58
that could shoot for the moon? And it's a delicate balance to
16:01
try to match, Yeah. The the the the exact.
16:05
The reason I'm asking is because I'm a big fan of the
16:07
entertainment world and I know having read and interviewed
16:09
people, one of the one of the time timeless arguments in the
16:13
entertainment world is the studios want something surefire
16:16
and the creatives want something new.
16:18
The the studios are adverse to risk and I could only imagine
16:22
that applies to a lot of other industries.
16:24
That was just the basis. That was where I was coming
16:26
from. Exactly.
16:27
It carries over exactly. But but as I'm thinking of an
16:31
answer, I'm reminded that I actually, I dealt with that in
16:34
my own way and it worked for me. I'll tell you what it was.
16:37
I'd always try to have all these two projects going, one that I
16:40
was sure would get funded and one that maybe would have
16:44
wouldn't, but really interested me.
16:46
So I was always some some money come.
16:48
It's like being being in a marriage where you both have an
16:51
income, one of you who uses the job, you still have some money
16:54
coming and should always be some money coming in.
16:57
And I could go with the blue Sky One and maybe eventually that we
17:01
get funded too. So can you give me some examples
17:04
of some fun stuff that you that you that was more risky and some
17:08
stuff that was more, that was more, I guess stable or secure?
17:13
The the more secure stuff, there were two classes of materials
17:17
that are very important in technology and I studied both of
17:19
them. One is semiconductors and now
17:22
that's what goes into integrated circuits and chips.
17:25
And the other superconductors which know from the name and and
17:31
what you read about them in in the media work only at very low
17:34
temperature is so they have less commercial application.
17:38
So I work in both the semiconductor money could almost
17:42
research could almost always get money.
17:44
The superconductor was iffier. I see there was there was no
17:48
guarantee that it would ever turn into anything practical.
17:52
And yet it has because now for quantum computing, they're
17:55
talking about using superconductivity for some of
17:59
the computers. So this very far out unusual
18:02
idea, which requires tremendous, incredible refrigeration turns
18:07
out to be perhaps be a viable consumer idea someday.
18:12
So interesting areas, yeah. That's really, you know, one
18:16
thing I, I was just reading, I was reading a book called The
18:18
Empire of AI and it's, it was pretty good.
18:21
It was, it was, it's, and it's generally it's, it's a book
18:23
about with written by an investigative tech journalist
18:27
about open AI. And one of the things that she
18:32
devotes quite a bit of time to is how much energy AI data
18:36
centers take up and how and how much energy is required for our,
18:39
you know, for the, for chat, you know, for the various versions
18:42
of say ChatGPT or cloud or what have you to run that we're going
18:47
to need. So we're spending a ton of money
18:49
now on cooling, using, I think having to use clean water, I
18:53
believe, I think and, and, and, and maybe Elon Musk was talking
18:58
about putting them in space so that they don't need cooling.
19:00
Do you know anything about that? I know a lot about it because
19:03
just wrote an article about it. Perfect.
19:06
Well, maybe you could help. Yeah, you'll have to shut me up
19:09
on this one, I'm telling you. Okay, let's devote a long, long
19:12
article about it. Everything you said is correct.
19:15
The amount of the amount of electrical power that AI will
19:19
use by 20-30 is projected to be a significant, small, but
19:24
significant percentage, like 3 or 4% of the entire electricity
19:28
output of the entire world. So that's huge just for one
19:32
industry. On top of that, you've got to
19:34
use millions of gallons of water to cool these hyper gigantic,
19:40
right? Yeah, clean water.
19:42
And then you put it on the environment.
19:44
It's hot water. That's not good for the
19:46
environment either. So there are a lot of issues
19:48
around it. There are cities that are saying
19:50
do not build an AI plant near anywhere near us.
19:54
It's just going to be bad news all all around.
19:57
So, so yes, it's a real issue and AI is a whole issue for for
20:05
many, many, many reasons, not just for.
20:08
Of course, I don't need to tell you or or our listeners at every
20:13
everyone who reads newspapers aware of that, of course.
20:17
Sure, sure. And as and As for alternative
20:19
methods of cooling because that's how we got to this topic.
20:22
But you know, I've heard that the two methods right now are
20:26
underwater and in space. And I don't know maybe how how
20:30
either one of them would hypothetically be viable.
20:32
But you mentioned that the supercomputing that is the Super
20:36
compute conducting that you were doing was tied into that
20:38
somehow. Yeah, yes.
20:40
So if you made a superconducting computer, 1 plus is it uses much
20:46
less energy to compute much. Less energy.
20:50
That I'm sorry. I'm asking you said much less
20:53
energy to compute you. Said much less energy to
20:55
compute, but you need energy to run the refrigeration and keep
21:00
it at the low temperatures. So there's a good side and the
21:03
bad side. I think you'll end up ahead on
21:06
the energy balance, but it's still a question whether we will
21:09
ever have two superconducting or superconducting quantum
21:13
computers. So that's the answer to that is
21:16
still a big question mark. Putting them in space is just a
21:19
non starter from if you think of what it costs to just send up 1
21:23
LB of stuff for a NASA mission, there's no way we'll have major
21:28
manufacturing facilities in space for a long, long, long
21:32
time. That is not going to happen.
21:34
Well, I, I understand so, so the to put a manufacturing facility
21:38
for sure will take it will be decades, I'm sure, if not more.
21:43
But if you, if I'm Elon Musk and I, you know, and Elon Musk is
21:51
directly involved in pretty much every like every aspect of the
21:56
supply chain for all of the, you know, for all of the AI, which
22:00
is incredible. It's really crazy.
22:01
And to watch also throughout the years, how each piece kind of
22:04
came together is remarkable. But if he, if he said, you know,
22:09
it's if it's more efficient, if it's, if it's taking up less of
22:14
earths energy, it's cleaner. And I could be the first person
22:17
to put a couple of data centers in space and to see how much
22:21
energy we save by not needing to cool it.
22:25
You don't see that being anything that he that he'd be
22:27
potentially interested in, in trying to, you know, even just
22:31
for the sake of doing of trailblazing, which you know,
22:33
that he loves to do. If someone could get the money
22:35
together to put together some kind of a facility in space and
22:39
make it happen, it'd be a great technical feat.
22:42
No question about that. To have enough of them floating
22:45
around would take trillions. There's an initial investment, I
22:50
think that that would be a huge value.
22:53
And there's one other point. OK, you you don't have to cool
22:56
it, but it's still generating heat, which radiates out into
23:00
space. We already have a problem with
23:02
too many satellites around our planet.
23:07
There's no problem. Yes, it's a problem.
23:10
It's a problem for astronomers, and it's actually a problem for
23:13
space travel because you need to make sure if you want to rock
23:16
it, you're not going to hit one of these satellites that are
23:19
floating around. If you and I have satellites
23:21
that are radiating huge amounts of energy, gigawatts, that's not
23:25
necessarily something you want and then in our sky either.
23:29
But I think there's an orphan solution and maybe, maybe must
23:32
have this in mind. I'll suggest it to him if he
23:35
asked me, but I'll tell you for free what it is.
23:38
It is. You put joint reflectors in
23:41
space and beam beam the power down to whatever place needs the
23:45
power on Earth. And that's been considered too.
23:49
Is that is that basically function the same way as
23:51
satellite works? Satellites trade a little bit of
23:56
energy back and forth because they're sending radio signals
23:59
back and forth. When I'm talking about a big
24:02
reflector the size of a football field that takes sunlight and
24:06
beams it down to Earth, it's converted to electricity.
24:10
You get free electricity and you don't need to burn fossil fuel
24:14
to do it. It's it's basically solar power
24:17
done from space. Wow.
24:19
That. Sounds really cool about that.
24:22
Yeah, Yeah, cool indeed. Wow, it's so much fun because
24:29
again, you know, I'm watching these Amazon TV shows or I'm
24:32
watching these Apple TV shows and even the and what's most
24:36
what's most fun about a lot of these, you know, these
24:39
interesting fake worlds is that we're not too far.
24:41
Again, they all feel pretty real and tangible.
24:44
I don't know if you watched the show Severance, which was about
24:48
Apple TV show about the splitting of minds between work
24:53
and out of work life and you have two, two totally different.
24:56
Persons, I've heard about it. It kind of, yeah.
24:59
It got a lot of attention. I did not watch it, but I kind
25:02
of know the basic scheme. Yeah, yeah.
25:05
So. Yeah, I think I, I think that I,
25:09
I mean, I, I don't think it is beyond, I don't think the chance
25:15
is zero. I don't think it's a crazy thing
25:16
to say that the technology can evolve soon, that that would
25:20
pretty much be the case that you can kind of switch your
25:22
consciousness on and on, you know, different degrees of your
25:24
awareness on and off for work. I, I don't know, I don't, I
25:27
don't know what I think about that, but it feel, you know, it
25:30
really, you really get to thinking.
25:32
And then when you watch a lot of the evolution of technology.
25:35
I had a woman on the podcast, a doctor, doctor Lisa Gable, I
25:39
believe out of Lafayette University.
25:41
And she told me that in 2010, sixteen years ago, that she and
25:47
engineering professor got teamed up and they used a hat.
25:53
They're using EEG waves to control, to control a drone, you
25:57
know, just using their just using electrical waves.
26:00
I mean, that was 2010. I mean, you know, I mean, it's,
26:03
it's incredible to see where we could be.
26:05
They've even gone beyond that. The EEG works, but since the
26:11
city has to go through the skull, it's not the finest level
26:16
of control. What they've done now is they
26:18
actually put a chip inside the brains of people who, for
26:22
instance, are paralyzed and the ship overcomes some of the the
26:26
neural problems that can certainly move all their limbs.
26:30
It's phenomenal. So yes, there's huge progress,
26:33
Joe. That's an area I've written
26:34
about quite a lot. Quite a lot too.
26:37
I don't think we're yet at the point where you can plug in a
26:40
chip and it enhances your mental ability, but I think that will
26:45
come. You will have a hard drive in
26:47
your brain or a computer in your brain.
26:49
And if you're talking now about splitting into two different
26:53
kinds of mental process, yes, I think that's not out of the
26:57
question. Whether it's a good idea is a
27:00
whole different discussion. Yeah, I don't, I, I don't know.
27:06
I saw that Sam, I, I read an article a couple of years ago
27:10
that Sam Altman had signed up for this, this to, to, to
27:14
participate in the startup that digitizes your brain, even
27:18
though the process of doing so might be fatal.
27:20
And there's, there's something about this whole thing that does
27:24
seem pretty scary to me, you know, And we really, I think
27:28
that the real question of what makes people people and humans,
27:31
humans is something that we're really, really going to have to
27:36
consider just because, and I think it's happening very
27:38
slowly. So it becomes familiar in little
27:41
steps at a time for people. It feels like we don't even like
27:45
work. We don't even know what it
27:46
really means to be a person anymore, especially with AI, you
27:49
know, if AI, I forgot who that there's a game that AI, you go
27:53
into a chat room with a real person and AI and you have to
27:55
try to tell who's the real person or not.
27:57
That's crazy, you know? Yeah, that that's, that's a
28:00
famous Turing test. Alan Turing was a guy who
28:05
defined what a computer should be like 6 or 70 years ago.
28:09
He was a brilliant British mathematician.
28:11
If you don't know the name and he said the test would be, could
28:15
you tell in conversation if it's a human or a machine?
28:18
That's called the Turing test. And what we have now, Chachi B,
28:22
Jack GBT and all the rest of it pretty much masters at they they
28:28
beat the game. You talk to the one with the
28:31
right personality on the computer, you can't tell if it's
28:35
the human or not. So it it's phenomenal stuff.
28:37
But I'll throw out a a thought to you.
28:40
This is you can argue that we're already part where they are.
28:44
So now people so attached to their phones that might as well
28:48
be parts of their bodies and parts of their brains.
28:51
And there's evidence, for instance, that if you use a GPS
28:57
and never again figure out how to find your way to an unknown
29:01
location, you somewhat diminishing your abilities as a
29:06
person and handing it over to the machine.
29:09
So to some extent, that's already happening even without
29:12
operating your brain and putting something inside it.
29:15
And it's not, it's not a great trend.
29:18
Yeah, I have to agree. And that's what I mean.
29:20
That's kind of what I meant by slow rolling it because I think
29:23
that as it becomes normal in society, I mean, it, it's, it's
29:27
funny because this particular thing shook, you know, it, it,
29:30
it stressed me out. I have a three-year old and a
29:32
one year old and and my wife and I don't often take date nights,
29:36
but we we, we got my my sister in law's a teacher.
29:39
We got it. We got a high school, high
29:40
school girl to babysit. And they sit.
29:43
Yeah, sit it down. Anything you want in the fridge,
29:45
anything you want in the snack drawer.
29:46
And here's ATV remote. Have a nice time.
29:48
Right. I was going to come couple hours
29:49
and I get back and the girl is sitting in the the pitch black
29:54
room. The TV screens off.
29:55
She's been on her phone and I said oh, you watch anything?
29:58
She's like, no, I was on my phone.
29:59
I said we were out for 3 1/2 hours.
30:02
Yes, yes. I, I couldn't believe it.
30:05
And even if she was watching, even the process of watching a
30:09
movie, putting something on a screen and, you know, having a,
30:13
you know, a communal experience to do something like that, that
30:16
that's fading away real quickly. Well, I, I think, I hope people
30:19
are starting to wake up, but people should.
30:21
It's really scary. I, I, I so much agree with you.
30:24
And to add to what you just said, some of the communal
30:27
experiences going away. Also, if you're watching the
30:30
story on TV, there's a plot. Your mind is looking who's the
30:35
murderer. If you're just rolling on your
30:38
phone, you, you get a little 32nd blast of stuff and then you
30:42
move on to the next thing. I don't think there's a coherent
30:46
experience going on there. So it's a holder different way
30:49
of using mine. I'm not sure it's a great way to
30:51
do it, yeah. One of my good friends has a 5
30:54
year old daughter and he told me the other day that he does he he
30:58
prefers he goes. I don't like, I'm not, I'm not,
31:01
I'm not extreme about it. He goes, but I if she wants to
31:03
watch something, I prefer that she watch a 90 minute movie than
31:08
YouTube clips for an hour. You know, he goes.
31:10
I in fact, I absolutely read he goes.
31:12
It's good to think about the plot.
31:13
It's good to notice the character development.
31:15
It's good to follow a storyline like you said, and he said that,
31:18
you know, she's five years old. This is the, you know, whether
31:21
or not you think she's watching TV, you know, is another
31:24
conversation. But if she's going to, I think
31:27
it's good to I, I, you know, I mean, you hear a lot of amazing
31:30
stories from, from a lot of great creatives who, who, who
31:33
start understanding the process of storytelling and humanity at
31:36
a very young age, just because they were exposed to it and
31:39
there was a lot of passion around it.
31:40
So I think that I think that we we pick up on it pretty quickly,
31:44
but I think that as far as I think that we you know, this,
31:47
this was a test generation with all these smartphones and social
31:51
media and everyone and everyone is a bunch of Lab Rats in, in,
31:54
in this mass experiment sort of feels like.
31:57
And there may be a backlash to it was starting.
32:00
And I think it's kind of been amplified by the AI because now
32:04
we're talking to a machine that seems like it could be human.
32:08
So it's even more seductive. You you read, I'm sure as I
32:13
have, of people falling in love with their AI, advising when
32:18
it's bad advice and maybe even committing suicide because the
32:22
AI, one of us encouraged it in Florida.
32:25
But it's true, yeah. Yeah, and it acts out and it
32:29
acts out. There's two stories I just saw.
32:31
I there was one story I saw a month ago, I don't know if you
32:34
saw this, that that there was a Meta, a research AI safety
32:38
researcher at Meta. And she had she was using this
32:43
new clawed bot, this chat bot, and she had instructed it to ask
32:48
for approval before it does any before it before it does any
32:51
actions. And then out of nowhere it just
32:53
started it says like activating nuclear safety mode, deleting
32:57
all emails prior to say February 10th and just started
33:00
permanently deleting her e-mail. She had to run to the server and
33:03
break it down. Boy.
33:05
And then you. And then yeah, yeah, wow.
33:09
And then she said, what are you doing?
33:10
And it's and she it said, you're right.
33:12
I did not do as what you explicitly directed me to do.
33:15
It was wrong with me. I apologize.
33:17
I wrote it into my memory and I won't do it again.
33:19
But that's crazy. That's being integrated into
33:21
government operations. It's being used in war.
33:23
It's being used in, you know, I mean, it's used, it's being used
33:26
for flights, for federal, you know, for, for flight
33:28
regulation. Now I heard it's it's starting
33:29
to be integrated. It's crazy.
33:31
And of course, science fiction is is already foreseen that the
33:35
whole Terminator series comes. So we we don't yet have armed
33:42
robots, but that could happen too.
33:45
Yeah. You know, to go back to what
33:49
we've said before, the sci-fi and the real world are getting
33:52
closer and closer ways that you can't believe.
33:55
Yeah, yeah, it really, it really is.
33:57
OK. I want to talk about something
33:59
that's not going to stress me out as much.
34:01
Can you tell? Me.
34:02
Either of us. Either of us, yeah.
34:05
Can you tell me a little bit about your, about Friedman's
34:07
balloon and how you came up with that story, what the story is
34:10
about? And, and because I, because I
34:12
remember, I, I was looking at that, I was looking into that
34:14
and I thought that it really looked delightful.
34:16
And I wanted to hear how you how you came out, how you came about
34:19
dealing with that or creating. It I'm I'm glad you picked up on
34:22
it because an interesting story and it's not very well known.
34:24
Alexander Friedman was a young mathematician just at the time
34:29
when Russia turned into the Soviet Union.
34:32
So he was there for the change and then he lived through the
34:36
chain and he survived and it. So he first became known in
34:40
World War One. The Russians were in World War
34:42
One, They were on the side against the Germans.
34:45
He was a navigator for bombers. Planes had dropped bombs on
34:54
German installations. His bombs always landed.
34:57
And the reason is he was a mathematician.
34:59
He figured out the exact spot to which to drop it from which to
35:04
drop it. So you'd hit the target.
35:06
The other, the other bombardiers couldn't do it.
35:08
He could. She became well known for that.
35:11
So great mathematician in this case, he applied it to war.
35:15
And he actually had reservations about doing that, but he did it.
35:18
He did it because he was good soldier.
35:21
After the war. We're now in the era when
35:24
Einstein started to develop the theory of relativity and he
35:28
published the his theory general relativity, which is about the
35:33
whole universe because it's about how gravity works.
35:36
It's the theory of gravity. And like every young scientist
35:41
at the time, Kingman looked at what Einstein was doing, was
35:45
very interested in and looked at the math, very complicated math.
35:49
You really need to be a mathematician to get it, and he
35:51
saw that Einstein had made what in his opinion, was a mistake.
35:56
Einstein's math showed that the universe would never get bigger
35:59
or smaller but would stay the same.
36:02
Said that's not right. It can either grow or get
36:05
smaller. It can change.
36:06
He wrote Einstein, he had the nerve.
36:08
He was a nobody. He was a nobody.
36:11
But he had the nerve to write Einstein and say, excuse me,
36:14
Sir, I know you're a great scientist, brilliant, but I
36:18
think that an error in your calculation and Ashley was not
36:22
terribly mean about it. He did write back and say, I,
36:26
I've looked at at your work and I'm sorry, I do not think you're
36:30
correct. And the statement it was done.
36:33
So he he had a friend, another mathematician who believed in in
36:39
Friedman and actually visited Einstein in Germany and said,
36:44
please take a look again at Friedman's work.
36:47
We all think Harley and him and Russia.
36:49
We know Russian science is not it was actually Soviet science
36:53
at the time. It's not very well appreciated
36:55
in the rest of Europe, but please.
36:57
For America. Right.
36:58
And then in the world, the Soviet, so Russia and then
37:02
Soviet were considered backwards compared to Europe and America.
37:07
But his friend begged Einstein to take a look again.
37:11
And Einstein showed he really was a good man.
37:13
He said, I'll look again. And lo and behold, he checked
37:19
and checked and he, he wrote an article that said my previous
37:23
statement was incorrect. Mr. Friedman or Doctor Friedman,
37:28
whatever title he wanted to use is correct.
37:31
The universe can grow or get smaller.
37:34
He was correct. So when I, when I wrote the
37:36
play, the play was centered around the fact, the fact that
37:40
Friedman took this risk. He wrote the letter, his friend
37:43
went on his behalf. Then they're sitting there
37:46
wringing their hands out on video.
37:48
You see me wringing my hands you.
37:50
That's what I'm doing. Waiting to hear back from
37:52
Einstein and when the hair back it's just total joy.
37:56
Even became famous in Russia as the guy who defeated Einstein in
38:00
a good way, in a good way. I showed he really was a good
38:04
person. He bow to the truth is not try
38:07
to cover it up. There's one more piece of the
38:10
Friedman story since again, he was a great mathematician who
38:14
also got into the mathematics of weather, weather forecasting and
38:18
climate. And this is still in the 1920s.
38:21
There were aircraft, but the way to really get up and look at the
38:25
atmosphere from way high up was in a balloon.
38:28
So he went up in a famous balloon ascent, which at that
38:32
time set the world's record for height.
38:34
There's a movie about this, wasn't there?
38:36
I did not. I if so, I did not know that you
38:39
please e-mail if you can figure the name.
38:42
Yeah, Yeah, that would be fantastic.
38:45
I think I even have the script here.
38:49
Hey God. Yeah, it's called Aeronauts over
38:52
here. It's with it's best original
38:55
screenplay oh firm of your consideration rather by it's
38:59
this man it's Amazon Studios. I'll send you the link to it
39:03
after. Yeah, please do one right.
39:05
That's fantastic. Thank you.
39:07
Yeah, sure. Of course.
39:08
And let me see. It's supposed to be the story of
39:10
James Glacier, his name John True.
39:13
This is not the same people. It's not the same people.
39:16
Amanda Wren. Amelia Wren.
39:19
All all the names would have been Russian names.
39:21
Oh man, OK, never mind. I take it back then I apologize.
39:24
They got all excited. No problem, no problem.
39:27
He went up with the Soviet army balloonist that reached the
39:31
world's record. And how do I forget what it was?
39:33
It was like 7 miles up, was unbelievable.
39:36
They almost passed out from oxygen deprivation, but they
39:40
came back to Earth. But they ended in Siberia, not
39:44
anywhere near Moscow. And on the way back, Friedman
39:47
caught cholera and he died of that young.
39:50
He was still in his 30s. Wow, Very fascinating life.
39:56
Getting, getting things right when Einstein got it wrong was
39:59
high point. But he did all the fascinating
40:02
things too. He was quite a guy.
40:04
He he was a, a skinny, meek looking little guy with glasses.
40:08
And he did this fantastic stuff. He was and I was very impressed
40:12
by his life. How'd you how'd you come across
40:13
his work? I read a book about him and that
40:15
inspired me and I said I have to.
40:17
I'd all I just in a play about another scientist and I said I
40:21
can do this. So I wrote a one act play.
40:24
We put it on in my university and everyone had a good time.
40:28
Tell, can you tell me about the, the process of writing a play?
40:31
Because I, you know, I, I, I found myself a little allergic
40:35
based on a probably a stupid stigma, you know, to going to
40:41
attending the college plays. And then I had to do a couple
40:44
for different classes that I was in, and I found myself blown
40:47
away by the talent that, you know, that that that's out
40:52
there. And that's when that that that
40:53
that's that that first set me down, the realization that
40:56
there's far more talent than fame in this world and that, you
40:59
know, you could still look around almost anywhere you are
41:01
and find incredible talent. So tell me about the playwriting
41:05
process. OK, I'll tell you about it, but
41:08
I just want to echo what you said.
41:11
Not only is there a talent writing a play, the experience
41:14
of being in a room with live people, acting, vlogging, funny
41:18
makes film look absolutely flat. You get a different a different
41:23
thrill out of it, right? If the people have never been to
41:27
a theater, do it sometime. You, you won't believe you.
41:29
Impressive it is. Imagine here is how it happened
41:34
to me. It's actually because of a
41:35
student. I had a a student at Emory
41:38
University. That's where I taught in
41:40
Atlanta. I had a student who had been
41:44
writing place since she was in high school and she came to
41:47
college. I gave a course basically
41:50
physics for non physicists that she took.
41:53
It was it was talk about the IT was a course about science and
41:57
art, how science and art connect and I always had them write a
42:00
term paper. So she came up to me and said,
42:04
Professor Perkowitz, instead of writing a paper, could I write a
42:08
play for you? So I I thought a minute, no one
42:10
has ever suggested this before. I said yes, it has to have
42:14
science in it and the science has to be correct.
42:17
Nice. So she wrote a terrific play.
42:20
She went out and talked to physicists.
42:22
She wrote a great play. And that weapon was the feeling.
42:25
If an 18 year old kid can do this, I ought to be that was.
42:30
Tragic. Incredible.
42:39
Go ahead, finish what you're going to say I'm.
42:42
So sorry, I'm sorry to interrupt.
42:43
I'm just going to say that that's such a huge benefit of
42:46
college and also having a professor like.
42:48
That absolutely. The education goes both ways.
42:52
In this case, it really worked. Yeah.
42:55
She impressed me so much so I said I can do it.
42:59
I actually got some hint tips from her while I was writing.
43:02
She helped me think how to write dialogue.
43:05
Nice, yes I had a hard time with that too.
43:07
Yeah, that's the hardest part. And it's where it's one of the
43:11
other place where movies differ from plays.
43:14
Movies can, can, can bowl you over with great spectacle.
43:20
You don't do that in a play. You bowl people over with great
43:22
conversation, great ideas, great characters.
43:25
And she was better at dialogue than I was.
43:28
Her tips were very, very good. So she gave me some tips.
43:31
That's not the first play I wrote, it's the second one.
43:34
But both plays were inspired by this student.
43:37
She went on to become the most produced young playwright in
43:41
America, and she's still very active and a lot of her plays
43:45
have to do with science and women in science.
43:48
So I my teaching influenced her and her response influenced me.
43:52
It was a great combination. I'm really proud of the whole,
43:55
the whole deal. It was a good deal all around.
43:58
It's amazing. It's such a, it's so wonderful.
44:00
I, I have it, I teach high school English and, and one
44:05
thing that I, I find myself having to keep myself aware of
44:09
in real time is that when a student asks me to do an
44:13
assignment an alternative way, it's my natural instinct to say,
44:17
no, I don't even know why, you know, because it wasn't the way
44:19
that I thought of it. And then I have to, and I have
44:22
to catch myself and think, well, well, why not?
44:24
And why? And are they still getting the
44:27
point of the class out? You know, when you say to her
44:29
that she still has to get to have science in it and have the
44:32
science work, that's that like that is that you're, you're,
44:36
you're doing your responsibility as an educator in literally the
44:39
best way because you're encouraging her to do it in her
44:41
voice, but to make sure that it's accurate and make sure that
44:44
she's that, that she's, she's processing and, and, and, and,
44:46
and really understanding information along the way.
44:49
I don't. I think I'd seen on your website
44:52
that you teach, but now you remind me.
44:54
So I think we're both telling each other to be open to student
44:58
ideas and have them use it in a way that makes them smarter and
45:02
better and meet a goal and be good students.
45:05
That's the ultimate of being a teacher.
45:07
I I sure where you see openness. Yeah.
45:10
Then it's hard. I initially said no too, and yet
45:14
yet I thought from then I said why not exactly what you said.
45:18
She could do something great. And she did, yeah.
45:21
That's really cool. It's it's so much fun.
45:23
And and I wanted to ask you actually, since you are, since
45:30
you did study material sign material condensed matter, which
45:34
is like you said with solids and liquids.
45:36
I'm speaking in the next week or two, I hope, to a plasma
45:42
physicist who is you who who studies using plasma as a form
45:48
of propulsion in hunting in in Huntsville, AL.
45:53
I wanted to know your thoughts on the type of questions to ask
45:57
for to, to, to really understand the, the, the topic in the, in
46:01
the in the best and most Broadway.
46:03
What would you what would you recommend?
46:05
OK, so the the first thing, which I'm sure you've already
46:07
thought is to make sure people understand what a plasma is.
46:10
So if you can, if you can get him to explain that in a clear
46:14
way, that'll be great. Since he's using it for rocket
46:19
propulsion. He's in Huntsville.
46:21
This is for NASA. The really interesting question
46:24
is why does it offer that? The ways we do it now doesn't
46:28
offer. Right now you use chemical fuel,
46:31
and that's good enough to get to get a rocket ship to the moon or
46:36
even even way out to the edge of the solar system, out to Pluto,
46:40
although that's unmanned. So chemical fuels are pretty
46:43
good. There's a lot of activity in
46:46
trying to find better, better methods. 1 is nuclear, one is 1
46:51
is plasma. So ask him about the comparison
46:55
of those three and how far. Yeah, I think that's a key
46:58
question. How far along the nuclear is and
47:01
the plasma is compared to the chemical?
47:04
Chemical is like the established one.
47:06
The other two of the other new guys on the block, how are they
47:09
coming along? That's cool.
47:12
Yeah, that'll be enough, I think to get him going, yeah.
47:18
Yeah. And then the second gentleman is
47:20
a more, is a more stereotypical rocket propulsion scientists.
47:25
And, and he, I, I spoke with him yesterday actually, and our 10
47:29
minute phone call turned into an hour and a half.
47:30
So I'm sure we'll have no problem with that conversation.
47:33
But wait. But but again, from year from
47:36
year background, what would you think would be important to know
47:39
or to specifically try to guide him towards as far as
47:42
foundations of the rocket of actual rocket science?
47:45
You know, I think the question that fascinates everybody is
47:49
there's a universal speed limit, speed of light.
47:53
We don't have any propulsion method that would enable us to
47:57
get to the nearest store in less than thousands of years.
48:02
As a guy for either guy, actually a propulsion guy or
48:06
rocket guy. It'd be nice to ask what are the
48:09
prospects for getting something that will let us get up, let's
48:12
say to 10% of the speed of light.
48:14
Would that, would that ever be possible speed of light or
48:17
anywhere near it, like 90%? I doubt it will ever be
48:20
possible. If you ever get up to 10 or 15
48:23
percent, you could do some really nice stuff with that 10%.
48:26
What can you do? If you if OK, I'll give you some
48:30
numbers. The nearest store we know about
48:33
that that might have planets is 4 light years.
48:36
That means it would take you 4 years to get there if you could
48:40
go with the speed of light. If you go with 10% of speed of
48:43
light, take 40 years. That's still a long time.
48:46
You can imagine building the ship that people survive on for
48:51
40 years. If you just use chemical fuel,
48:55
we're talking about thousands and thousands of years.
48:58
So that's the difference. Begin to see parts of the
49:03
universe beyond our solar system in almost a reasonable human
49:07
lifetime. That would be the big deal.
49:10
Yeah. Ways from that.
49:11
What propulsion method do you think might get us to maybe 10%
49:15
of the speed of light? Yeah.
49:17
I mean, and, and one of the things that he and I talked
49:19
about on the phone was, was the UAP phenomenon at this point,
49:25
you know, and I don't even know if it's being intentionally
49:28
thrown into the zeitgeist so dramatically, but it's really
49:33
been out there, whether you're talking about political, you
49:35
know, from political, a political perspective with Trump
49:38
and heck, Seth and, and pretty much the entire cabinet getting
49:41
behind this movement and saying that they're trying to publicize
49:44
it to the Pentagon, actually announcing that they're going to
49:47
release it. And then you actually have a lot
49:48
of scientists coming out and, you know, and you know, coming
49:51
out. But but one thing again, that
49:53
you can't ignore and you know, so when people say Uaps or UFOs,
49:56
everyone thinks aliens, but there's no, there's there's a
50:00
very, very clear relationship between military bases that are,
50:04
that are generally studying nuclear or various forms of
50:07
propulsion or rocketry and, or energy.
50:13
And there's direct relation between them and UFO sightings,
50:15
UAP sightings. So, you know, the, the, so I'm,
50:18
I, I don't think it's really so much up in the air as to the,
50:22
whether or not we have, we're kind of breaking grounds with
50:25
this science or have been developing it.
50:28
I mean, allegedly you've been developing it since the 50s.
50:31
What do you what do you think about all this?
50:33
I I've tried to keep track of what's going on.
50:37
I have to say my honest, honest answers do not know what to
50:40
believe. Yeah, the whole ET thing, and
50:44
are they really among us and so on, is just sprung into openness
50:49
in the last couple of years. And we've reached a point, I'm
50:53
sorry to say, but it's true that I don't even know whether to
50:57
trust what our own government says.
50:59
And then separating that from leaks and rumors and conspiracy
51:04
theories, it seems to get harder every day.
51:07
So I have no idea what to believe.
51:08
I'm ready to keep an open mind. If someone shows me some real
51:12
evidence that there are other beings, I wouldn't be the least
51:14
bit surprised. The odds that there was life
51:18
elsewhere are extremely high. I cannot believe we're alone in
51:22
the universe but not yet heard anything that is totally
51:25
convincing to me one way or the other.
51:28
Yeah. Well, what about the actual, I
51:30
mean, we have, for example, you know, radar records of these
51:35
crafts moving at that at speeds that that we thought were don't
51:38
make any sense or instant propulsion.
51:41
Or there's one video, for example, of this, the the orb
51:44
thing going through the, you know, it's basically by flying
51:48
by the surface of the water and it kept on going into the water
51:51
and then back out, but it wasn't slowing down when it would enter
51:54
the water is maintaining the same speed.
51:56
And so, you know, and again, the extraterrestrial or not, let's
52:03
put that question aside, you know, does the science exist or,
52:07
you know, do you think that this, that this kind of
52:09
experimental new form of, you know, propulsion or, or energy
52:13
exists? Or do you think that this like
52:15
what, Like what I, I, because I, I again, you're right about the,
52:17
the not, not being able to discern truth from reality with
52:21
ETS and stuff like that. But as far as the actual, you
52:24
know, crafts, there's a lot of them.
52:27
OK, a lot of things that reporters seem to violate basic
52:31
physics. They talk about objects that
52:34
stop, stop, turn on a dime and move again.
52:37
Well, there's a thing called inertia.
52:40
Right. Which would prevent that?
52:43
Yeah, You would see that there's, I would say there's two
52:47
kinds of of alternate reality. One is the kind where the
52:52
science is correct, but it still takes engineering to make it
52:55
happen. So you might be able, you might
52:58
be able to design A supercomputer that would work in
53:02
space and get it up there. It's just a matter of
53:05
engineering. The other kind is where it seems
53:08
to violate all the basic science we know.
53:11
Something that goes 1000 miles an hour it can turn on a dime
53:15
does not seem compatible with the laws of mechanics as far as
53:19
we know them. So then what do you do with that
53:21
information? Do you disregard it or do you
53:23
study it? Is this do you take it as
53:25
inspiration like a sci-fi movie to like understand something
53:28
new? But how do you, how do you, how
53:29
do you like, what do you do with that information?
53:31
I think I wait to see if someone will pop up and do the
53:35
experiment and the data and the video and the film and the
53:40
eyewitnesses. Is that, yes, it's really
53:43
happened. You know, I take it that when
53:44
you say a radar operator saw a blip that operated, that worked
53:48
in a very strange way, that person is telling the truth.
53:52
Is he or she sees it? A radar operator is also a
53:55
human. They're also subject to
53:57
misinterpretation and other things too.
54:00
So I really don't know what to make of that.
54:02
Sure. Have you ever come across a
54:04
gentleman named Jesse Michaels? He has a show called American
54:07
Alchemy. No, no, it's new to me.
54:09
Tell me. Oh, well, you know, he's very
54:13
interesting because he's a very science oriented, very
54:17
intelligent documentarian and he makes these amazing
54:20
documentaries and and is very, very careful to never a leap to
54:26
any conclusions. B make any statements without
54:29
evidence, and C makes very clear when the speculation is a
54:33
speculation. But then we'll also like, say we
54:36
know that this is this and we know that that is that.
54:39
But we don't know how they relate to one another, how they
54:41
go together, how it's possible. Like what you said, for example,
54:43
with the stop and the dime and the inertia example, you know,
54:48
maybe I'll send you, I'll send you something.
54:49
I'll send you maybe, maybe one of his, one of one of his
54:52
documentaries and I'd love to hear what you think about that.
54:54
That would be good. Let's do that.
54:56
There might be a future conversation coming out of that.
54:59
Perfect. Beautiful.
55:01
Yeah. Well, Doctor Sidney Berkowitz, I
55:04
really, I want to thank you so much for your time.
55:07
This is such a fun conversation and I really feel like we got to
55:10
explore not only a lot of science, a lot of fun
55:13
conversations, but a lot of creative and cool and
55:16
out-of-the-box conversations, which is exactly what I aim for.
55:19
So I really thank you so much for your time today.
55:21
It means a lot. You had good questions.
55:23
You listen. Listen to what I hope were good
55:26
answers. So I think we both walk away
55:27
happy. I think so too.
55:29
I'd love to stay in touch. And maybe after you listen to
55:31
that, that, that thing, we'll do another episode in a bunch of
55:34
months from now, OK? And now I know that you do video
55:37
and next time I'll I'll be ready showing show my office the way
55:41
it looks now and me myself right now would drive away your entire
55:45
viewership. I promise you.
55:47
Did you favorable and not showing up, but next time I'll
55:51
be ready. We can we can do it all.
55:53
We'll even go 3D. We're going to go 3D next time.
55:56
Beautiful. Well, I I forgot, were we going
56:00
back and forth about Seattle, WA?
56:03
Yes. What was your connection with
56:04
Seattle? Yeah, tell me about.
56:06
That Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, it's funny.
56:09
I have one of my leaving leaving college.
56:11
I got a creative writing and literature degree which was
56:14
practically useless I'm. Sorry to hear that.
56:18
Yeah. And I ended up working with my
56:22
father. I swore my whole life I would
56:24
never do such a thing. And I ended up working with him
56:27
selling medical equipment and I was living at home and I was
56:32
ready to jump off the roof of my parents house.
56:34
And, and my buddy calls me and call from college and goes, I
56:38
got into grad school at University of Washington and I
56:42
really want to go there. They have a great program for
56:44
urban planning, but I don't know anyone going anyone lives there.
56:48
So I didn't even hesitate. I said I'll move there and then.
56:51
And then I hung up the phone and I called two other friends of
56:53
mine and I said, do you want to come?
56:55
You know, me and this friend are moving to Seattle and they said
56:58
they, they basically said if you guys are really doing it, we'll
57:01
do it with you. And, and then within a, you
57:03
know, a couple of weeks or a couple of months, we got, we
57:05
rented a house and we, and you know, we packed up our cars and
57:08
drove cross country and spent the year there.
57:11
Right story. I love and I, it was 2019 into
57:15
2020. And what's interesting is, you
57:18
know, obviously that's when COVID broke out.
57:20
But I got to spend 6 months, you know, socially in Seattle, like
57:24
with the people and at the breweries and, you know, at the,
57:27
at the shops and at the coffee bars and stuff like that at the
57:30
parks. And then I got to spend 6 months
57:32
in the nature around, around Washington.
57:34
Yeah. And that's really where the
57:36
magic happened. And that's where my, you know,
57:37
that's how I really fell in love with the Pacific Northwest.
57:40
We moved. We moved here full time five
57:42
years ago from Atlanta. We have a son here who got his
57:45
PhD at UW. Nice.
57:47
So he got info and I know what a good school it is.
57:50
Yeah, he got a great degree, actually, an AI, believe it or
57:54
not. Wow, really?
57:56
What do you what do you still what what's what was the
57:58
concentration in what application?
58:00
The concentration was AI ended up never worked.
58:03
He worked in in the less exciting part of that data
58:06
mining. But that's that's important.
58:09
And that's an important idea. That's the whole ball game.
58:12
Now he works for Google Music, figuring out how to arrange
58:16
their music catalog. Wow, it's an incredible data
58:19
set. It's a big deal.
58:20
It's not a trivial problem in setting up the date in a way
58:24
that users want, want access to it.
58:27
So. So I know it's a good school.
58:29
We know Seattle is a great place to live.
58:31
We live in West Seattle. We just love it.
58:34
We just love it. Yeah.
58:36
Out here again we'll have a chance to meet in person now
58:38
I'll. Be there.
58:39
I'll be there this summer. I'll be there this summer.
58:41
I'll. I'll give you a call.
58:42
That'll be great. You know where to reach me.
58:44
That would be very nice. Of course.
58:46
All right, Doctor Berkowitz, thank you so much for the time.
58:49
There's so much. And please, shouldn't they?
58:51
Now we're informal. OK, you got it.
58:54
Well, Cindy, thank you so much. It's such.
58:56
A pleasure. Have a pleasure to meet you
58:57
Efram, and congratulations on doing this.
59:00
I think you have the right personality for this kind of pod
59:03
show podcast.