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The Saga of Milli Vanilli · Stuff You Should Know

0:01
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio. Hey,
0:11
Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck
0:14
Speaker 1: and here's Jerry too, and this is stuff you shouldette know.
0:19
Speaker 1: You know it's true. Girl. Oo ooh ooh.
0:26
Speaker 2: I love that you had this idea to do one
0:30
Speaker 2: on the Milli Vanilly story. Sure, I love that we're
0:33
Speaker 2: doing it. Yeah, And I was surprised about how much
0:38
Speaker 2: the US Army played in the story of Milli Vanilly.
0:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, technically you could say that the US Army produced
0:45
Speaker 1: Millie Vanilli.
0:46
Speaker 2: Initially, Yes, we'll point it out. Early on, there were
0:49
Speaker 2: just quite a few references. I was like, there's the
0:51
Speaker 2: army again.
0:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, and even still today, but this was
0:55
Speaker 1: a full three decades later. Millie Vanilli is still generally
1:01
Speaker 1: looked down upon as frauds and a sham and just
1:06
Speaker 1: a joke. But when it's one of those stories, just
1:09
Speaker 1: like everything else, when you really dig into it's way
1:11
Speaker 1: more complex, way more complicated. And even when it's apparent
1:15
Speaker 1: and clear that you got okay, here's the villain, if
1:18
Speaker 1: you read interviews with the villain at the time, you're like,
1:22
Speaker 1: kind of make some great points here, too. It's just complicated.
1:25
Speaker 1: But one thing that I hope you guys get out
1:27
Speaker 1: of this is that Rob and Fab were kids at
1:31
Speaker 1: the time we're in over their head. Were certainly not
1:36
Speaker 1: responsible for orchestrating the fraud that was perpetrated through Millie Vanilli.
1:43
Speaker 2: Now, they did as they were told, and like you said,
1:46
Speaker 2: they were in the early twenties. I have a lot
1:48
Speaker 2: of I got a lot of sympathy for these.
1:50
Speaker 1: Guys, for sure, I do too, and I have even
1:52
Speaker 1: more now.
1:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, so you mentioned the what'd you call
1:58
Speaker 2: him a villain or the orchestrator?
2:00
Speaker 1: Would I call them both? Technically?
2:03
Speaker 2: All right? Well, we're talking about a man named Frank Farrian.
2:06
Speaker 2: He was born as Frank's I'm sorry, Franz Ruther nineteen
2:11
Speaker 2: forty one. Grew up in Germany. Big fan of music,
2:14
Speaker 2: big fan of soul music, American soul music, yes, and
2:18
Speaker 2: was a singer himself, apparently a pretty decent singer, and
2:24
Speaker 2: sang in clubs where United States Army soldiers would.
2:28
Speaker 1: Go, yeah, and he's sang what you'd call today blue
2:31
Speaker 1: eyed soul. But this was before blue eyed soul was acceptable,
2:36
Speaker 1: at least in Germany. So he wanted to sing like
2:39
Speaker 1: the songs of his heroes, but they were like, you're no,
2:43
Speaker 1: you shouldn't be doing that. Stop doing that. So he
2:46
Speaker 1: was thwarted as an actual artist from the get go,
2:50
Speaker 1: and he moved into producing in the early seventies. And
2:53
Speaker 1: there's a quote from him in the early nineties in
2:56
Speaker 1: the midst of all this, and he said, you know
2:58
Speaker 1: the I know an other people are figuring out that
3:01
Speaker 1: the producer is now the most important person in the band,
3:04
Speaker 1: not the artists. And if that didn't reflect the future,
3:08
Speaker 1: then I don't know what does. Yeah, But he became
3:11
Speaker 1: a producer, and he became a pretty successful producer almost
3:13
Speaker 1: out of the gate.
3:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, in Europe and then eventually, obviously thanks to Milli
3:18
Speaker 2: Vanilly worldwide. But in Europe he was super successful with
3:22
Speaker 2: a group called Bonie M b O N Y capital M.
3:28
Speaker 2: I don't know if they had an exclamation pointer in
3:30
Speaker 2: Tero bang or something, that would have been kind of cool, sure,
3:33
Speaker 2: but in Tero Bang would have been perfect, actually yes,
3:36
Speaker 2: because you're like, what is a bonie M? But Boniem
3:40
Speaker 2: was a group disco funk. Olivia described them as europop.
3:45
Speaker 2: They were all these things. When this album came out,
3:48
Speaker 2: and this is I mean pretty obvious that this laid
3:52
Speaker 2: the groundwork for Milli Vanilly because Farian Frank Farrian sang
3:56
Speaker 2: the songs himself and hired four model singers from Caribbean
4:01
Speaker 2: as the touring band, and between seventy six and eighty five,
4:05
Speaker 2: over a nine year period, they had eight studio albums
4:08
Speaker 2: and we're pretty big in Europe. They weren't the hugest
4:11
Speaker 2: thing ever, but they were big over there, not here.
4:14
Speaker 2: But he had laid this groundwork of this model of
4:18
Speaker 2: him or someone else singing, and other people that had
4:22
Speaker 2: a prettier face would be on the cover as the.
4:24
Speaker 1: Group, yeah, or touring as the group too, all of it,
4:28
Speaker 1: and you just wouldn't disclose that. You just you know,
4:31
Speaker 1: not mentioned that kind of thing. Yeah, and bony m
4:34
Speaker 1: became popular enough that a guy named Bobby Farrell, who
4:37
Speaker 1: was one of the i think one of the models
4:40
Speaker 1: who was hired, became the group's actual lead singer. But
4:44
Speaker 1: he when he went to go into the studio and
4:47
Speaker 1: record tracks after he left and the album came out,
4:51
Speaker 1: he'd find that his tracks have been re recorded over
4:54
Speaker 1: with Farian singing.
4:55
Speaker 2: Yeah.
4:56
Speaker 1: So that was just how it was Farian was in charge.
5:00
Speaker 1: You just had to go along with it, probably because
5:02
Speaker 1: they signed a not so great contract with them.
5:04
Speaker 2: That's right. Now, we turned to the beginnings of the
5:09
Speaker 2: Millie Vanilli story when Frank Farrion stole a song basically
5:14
Speaker 2: called Girl you Know It's True.
5:16
Speaker 1: It was written by a group of people.
5:19
Speaker 2: There was a Baltimore hip hop group named New Mars
5:23
Speaker 2: in um RX collaborated with a singer from a group
5:29
Speaker 2: called StarPoint name I Guess Kai or key at a Yemo,
5:35
Speaker 2: and then a man named Bill Peedaway Junior who became
5:41
Speaker 2: a really big person in the music business like work
5:44
Speaker 2: with Jay Z and Missy Elliott and all kinds of people,
5:47
Speaker 2: but at the time was working at a gas station
5:50
Speaker 2: and got together with them, which included as part of
5:54
Speaker 2: Newmark's a guy named Kevin Lyles who is now the
5:58
Speaker 2: CEO three hundred Entertainment, which is a huge rap record label.
6:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, and if you go back and listen to Girl
6:05
Speaker 1: you Know It's True by New Marks, you will recognize
6:09
Speaker 1: it immediately because not only did Frank Ferrian steal the song,
6:14
Speaker 1: when he remade it, he remade it really faithfully. He
6:18
Speaker 1: just basically gussied it up a little bit more than
6:21
Speaker 1: New Marks was capable of, because again he was a
6:23
Speaker 1: really talented producer, but he didn't. It wasn't an interpretation
6:27
Speaker 1: or a rearrangement of Girl. You know, it's true. He
6:29
Speaker 1: just redid it exactly how New Marks had done it right. So,
6:34
Speaker 1: just just to put this in perspective, the fraud that
6:38
Speaker 1: was Millie Vanilli started out with the theft of a song,
6:41
Speaker 1: their biggest their second biggest hit.
6:43
Speaker 2: Actually yeah, and this song he was able to steal
6:47
Speaker 2: it because it was never a big hit. I think
6:48
Speaker 2: it's sold about eight thousand records and in some regions
6:51
Speaker 2: of the US, I think Atlanta and Philly and Chicago
6:54
Speaker 2: is what Livia found a little bit of airplay, but
6:57
Speaker 2: it was not a big song in the United States.
7:01
Speaker 2: But very Key Studio Records, who was the indie label
7:04
Speaker 2: to put it out. They also put it out in
7:06
Speaker 2: Europe and this is where this is where Frank heard
7:10
Speaker 2: it in Germany and was like, I can steal this thing.
7:12
Speaker 2: It's not a problem.
7:13
Speaker 1: Exactly, only eight thousand records, no problem. Yeah, So I'm not.
7:18
Speaker 1: I didn't see if he ever saw the permission. There's
7:21
Speaker 1: like a legend that supposedly he wanted to go collaborate
7:24
Speaker 1: with New Marks and was either ignored or was told no,
7:28
Speaker 1: that's not necessarily true. There's a lot of stuff here
7:31
Speaker 1: that you just have to take with a grain of salt,
7:32
Speaker 1: because there are a lot of different people with a
7:35
Speaker 1: lot of different self interests that gave their own version
7:39
Speaker 1: of events. So just about everything we say you should
7:42
Speaker 1: probably take with a grain of salt, including that. It's
7:45
Speaker 1: entirely possible from what I've read about Frank Farrion that
7:49
Speaker 1: he didn't try to get in touch with them at all.
7:51
Speaker 1: He just decided he was going to take that song yeah,
7:53
Speaker 1: and deal with it later, deal with to fall out later.
7:56
Speaker 2: They didn't New Marks didn't know that that happened until
7:58
Speaker 2: they heard Millie Vanilli singing it on the radio.
8:02
Speaker 1: Can you imagine how mad man you would be.
8:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, they got they got paid later, and they got
8:07
Speaker 2: credit later because they followed a bunch of lawsuits. But
8:11
Speaker 2: it took that to get that credit and money.
8:13
Speaker 1: So when Frank Ferrian put together his own version of girl,
8:17
Speaker 1: you know it's true. Fabrice Morvin and Rob Palladis or Polaitis,
8:23
Speaker 1: they weren't even around yet. They were not part of
8:26
Speaker 1: the group. They hadn't even met Frank Farrian at that point.
8:30
Speaker 1: They were well known around the Munich club scene as
8:34
Speaker 1: being like a couple of hot dudes, yeah who knew
8:38
Speaker 1: how to dance. Sure, and I believe that's kind of
8:41
Speaker 1: where Farian caught on to them. For sure, we'll see
8:44
Speaker 1: he invited them to come over. But before that, we
8:47
Speaker 1: should talk a little bit about Rob and fab.
8:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, so fab like you said, his name is Fabrice.
8:52
Speaker 2: Morvin was born on Guadaloupe, is a Caribbean island, raised
8:57
Speaker 2: in Paris. Evidently was a pretty promising gymnast until a
9:02
Speaker 2: vertebrae injury from a trampoline accident in nineteen eighty three.
9:06
Speaker 2: And how it just hurts to think about.
9:08
Speaker 1: I know, trampolines are so dangerous. They are so dangerous. Everybody.
9:12
Speaker 1: If you have a trampoline, you haven't heard our Trampoline episode,
9:15
Speaker 1: go listen to it and then sell your trampoline.
9:18
Speaker 2: Ruby asked for one. I was like, no way, So
9:22
Speaker 2: couldn't participate in gymnastics anymore, turned to dancing.
9:26
Speaker 1: So.
9:26
Speaker 2: Rob Polaitis was born in New York City and the
9:31
Speaker 2: son of a German woman and a US soldier. Here
9:34
Speaker 2: we go again, an African American US soldier, but was
9:39
Speaker 2: ended up in an orphanage in Bavaria and was adopted
9:42
Speaker 2: at the age of four by a German couple. And
9:45
Speaker 2: so he and for Briests have something in common. There
9:50
Speaker 2: are two black men in the nineteen seventies growing up
9:55
Speaker 2: in these not completely white cultures but kind of devoid
9:59
Speaker 2: of lot of black culture at least, facing racism from
10:03
Speaker 2: classmates and stuff like that. And they bonded over this.
10:07
Speaker 2: I think it was Rob who talked about finally in
10:10
Speaker 2: his teenage years, Michael Jackson became such a big deal
10:14
Speaker 2: that all all of a sudden, like you know, even
10:17
Speaker 2: where he was in Germany, it became kind of trendy
10:19
Speaker 2: to be black, and he wasn't like it's picked on,
10:21
Speaker 2: I guess. But super handsome guy was a model obviously
10:27
Speaker 2: very early on in a DJ and a breakdancer, and
10:31
Speaker 2: a good enough breakdancer that in nineteen eighty four he
10:34
Speaker 2: went to New York for a breakdancing competition, which is
10:37
Speaker 2: where he met fab who was there for a dance seminar.
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Speaker 1: Very fortuitous, yeah, even more like they didn't meet in
10:45
Speaker 1: New York. Rob decided to fly to LA as part
10:49
Speaker 1: of that trip to New York. While he was over
10:51
Speaker 1: on the across the Pond, and that's where he met Fabrice.
10:56
Speaker 2: All right, in New York.
10:58
Speaker 1: Well, he was in New York. They just didn't meet
11:00
Speaker 1: in New York. Well, so it was a very fortuitous
11:03
Speaker 1: chance meeting. And apparently, you know, they they got along
11:06
Speaker 1: and everything. And I saw that they ran into each
11:09
Speaker 1: other again in Munich. I don't know if they, you know,
11:13
Speaker 1: kept in touch or anything like that, but either way,
11:15
Speaker 1: once they were both back in Munich living in the
11:17
Speaker 1: same town together, they basically said, let's join forces and
11:21
Speaker 1: really knock the socks off of the people at the
11:23
Speaker 1: clubs around here.
11:24
Speaker 2: I'll tell you where they didn't meet. Kansas City, It's true.
11:31
Speaker 1: It's like, was it New York or LA? Where else
11:33
Speaker 1: could it be? It was not Kansas City, It's true.
11:36
Speaker 2: No, or I don't know, what's another place they wouldn't
11:39
Speaker 2: have met.
11:41
Speaker 1: Arlington, Virginia, Topeka. Sure they could have met in Arlington,
11:44
Speaker 1: just outside of d C. Yeah, all right, I mean
11:47
Speaker 1: it's just right across the river. So what are they
11:50
Speaker 1: doing in DC meeting the president? I would guess model
11:54
Speaker 1: model you in Yeah, they were doing break dancing for
11:57
Speaker 1: Ronald Reagan. All right, model you was a fun little
12:00
Speaker 1: impro exercise.
12:02
Speaker 2: Sure, So, like you said, they met back in Munich.
12:07
Speaker 2: They would eventually get the attention of Frank Farrion, who
12:11
Speaker 2: was obviously kind of I'm sure you like to think
12:13
Speaker 2: he knew everybody in that scene in Germany and got
12:16
Speaker 2: in touch with them on New Year's Day nineteen eighty eight,
12:19
Speaker 2: came together very quickly, brought him to his studio in Frankfurt,
12:24
Speaker 2: played them girl. You know it's true. They signed a
12:28
Speaker 2: record contract that day, where in which Frank Farrion said,
12:32
Speaker 2: I will put out at least ten songs a year
12:34
Speaker 2: by you guys. And as far as Robin fab were concerned,
12:38
Speaker 2: and I totally believe him, they thought that meant we
12:41
Speaker 2: are going to sing these songs, even though they weren't
12:44
Speaker 2: great singers.
12:45
Speaker 1: They also later said that they didn't read the contract,
12:48
Speaker 1: and the fact that they met and signed a contract
12:50
Speaker 1: on New Year's Day in nineteen eighty eight certainly supports that.
12:53
Speaker 1: At the very least, they didn't bring any legal counsel
12:55
Speaker 1: in to look at it. Yeah, so they just trusted
12:58
Speaker 1: Frank Feryon. They had been looking for singing parts. So
13:02
Speaker 1: they just assumed that that's what he was saying, We're
13:04
Speaker 1: going to make records with you guys. That is not
13:07
Speaker 1: what had happened. And by this time Farian already knew
13:10
Speaker 1: he didn't want Rob or Fab to sing. It wasn't
13:12
Speaker 1: like he had them over heard them sing. It was like,
13:15
Speaker 1: I've got to figure something else out. Yeah, he was like,
13:17
Speaker 1: I love your look, and you guys are going to
13:20
Speaker 1: be the lip syncing frontman of Millie Vanilli And I'm
13:24
Speaker 1: just not going to tell you that at first.
13:26
Speaker 2: That's right. What he had really done was, as everybody knows,
13:30
Speaker 2: I think probably by now, but he hired professional singers
13:34
Speaker 2: to record Girl. You know it's true. Some gentlemen by
13:37
Speaker 2: the name of Brad Howell and John Davis, former US
13:41
Speaker 2: soldiers once again. He met them in Germany when Farian
13:45
Speaker 2: was working there. And then another former US soldier, Charles Shaw,
13:49
Speaker 2: is a guy who did the rap portion of that song.
13:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was puzzled. I'm like, are they talking about
13:57
Speaker 1: They're not talking about them. They have to be speaking
13:59
Speaker 1: about that one part where he just suddenly goes like,
14:02
Speaker 1: I'm in love with you, girl, you on my mind.
14:04
Speaker 1: That Yeah, that's what they're calling rap.
14:07
Speaker 2: Sure, what else is it?
14:10
Speaker 1: Like? Rhythmic singing, that's what rap is. Yeah, I don't
14:14
Speaker 1: know about that one.
14:15
Speaker 2: Yeah that was the rap part.
14:17
Speaker 1: Okay, sorry, Charles, you take issue. I guess I did. Definitely,
14:22
Speaker 1: I definitely did. Even today, like I'm not looking down
14:25
Speaker 1: on Milli Vanilli, like, sure that was not rap? All right,
14:28
Speaker 1: Well that Blondie song was more rap than than raping girl,
14:33
Speaker 1: you know it's true.
14:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, So at any rate, those three guys did with
14:37
Speaker 2: it whatever they did on tape as the real singers,
14:41
Speaker 2: slash rappers, slash How did you describe it? Rhythmic talkers,
14:45
Speaker 2: rhythmic singers, rhythmic singers. But from the get go, it
14:50
Speaker 2: wasn't like, Hey, we're going to be this new band,
14:52
Speaker 2: We're going to go out on tour. I think Howell
14:55
Speaker 2: was in his forties and he was like, I'm not
14:56
Speaker 2: going to tour farians was It was just Fairian's deal
15:01
Speaker 2: from the beginning, as I'm going to have these two
15:03
Speaker 2: super handsome model guys in there, you guys are going
15:07
Speaker 2: to sing and they I think they ended up listing
15:10
Speaker 2: them as backup singers on the record. The guys who
15:13
Speaker 2: really sang it right, and that was just that was
15:15
Speaker 2: the arrangement from the beginning to everybody but Robin Fab.
15:20
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm not sure exactly when they figured out that
15:24
Speaker 1: that was that they were not going to be singing.
15:28
Speaker 1: I don't know, because when he played them the song Girl,
15:31
Speaker 1: you know it's true the demo allegedly it was instrumental
15:34
Speaker 1: at that point.
15:34
Speaker 2: Oh really interesting, Yeah.
15:36
Speaker 1: So that it wasn't like he was playing this for
15:38
Speaker 1: them and saying like, you guys are just going to
15:39
Speaker 1: pretend you're doing you're singing this like. I don't know
15:42
Speaker 1: when they figured it out, but it didn't take very long.
15:46
Speaker 1: And just as like a little side note before we
15:48
Speaker 1: go take a break. Where did the name Millie Vanilli
15:52
Speaker 1: come from? What does it mean?
15:53
Speaker 2: Chuck Well, who knows. There's a bunch of stories. Robin
15:57
Speaker 2: Fab said that it meant pop, positive energy, and Turkish,
16:01
Speaker 2: which just isn't true. Sounds like something you would say for,
16:05
Speaker 2: you know, when you're trying to sell records or whatever.
16:07
Speaker 1: But also does the words Millie Vanilli sound Turkish in
16:11
Speaker 1: any way, shape or form.
16:12
Speaker 2: I don't know Turkish, but it doesn't sound particularly Turkish
16:16
Speaker 2: to my.
16:16
Speaker 1: Ninears definitely does not.
16:19
Speaker 2: Some people said it was a discotheque in Berlin by
16:22
Speaker 2: that name. Some people said Frank Ferring's assistant, Ingrid Siegith
16:28
Speaker 2: was her nickname was Milli, And then other people said
16:31
Speaker 2: it might have been and I'm not sure about this
16:33
Speaker 2: at all, but it might have been inspired by Scritty Piliiti,
16:35
Speaker 2: the great pop English pop band who is very underrated.
16:39
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, they sing that song perfect way. I've
16:42
Speaker 1: got a perfect way to make the girls go crazy.
16:45
Speaker 1: It's gritty, pility is great, it is, and that's a
16:47
Speaker 1: good song. But I just wanted to take this moment
16:50
Speaker 1: because there's so few opportunities to express my opinion of
16:54
Speaker 1: the greatest song of the eighties, The entire eighties, the
16:57
Speaker 1: entire decade is owner of a lonely heart.
17:00
Speaker 2: Yes, oh, I just heard that song.
17:03
Speaker 1: I can. It's one of those ones that like, I'll
17:05
Speaker 1: hear it on the radio or in the mall or something,
17:07
Speaker 1: because you know there's still malls and I will never
17:10
Speaker 1: be like, oh this song. I can listen to that
17:12
Speaker 1: song every single time it comes on. Yeah, it is
17:15
Speaker 1: so well done. It's so complex, but it's so catchy.
17:18
Speaker 1: It's so well played. It's just the perfect song from
17:22
Speaker 1: the eighties.
17:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, movie Yourself, A great start, Yeah, great end, Greade.
17:27
Speaker 1: Middle, Yeah, the whole shebang. I love it.
17:30
Speaker 2: I liked the whole album. What was it was a
17:32
Speaker 2: series of numbers. I wanted to say nine to two
17:34
Speaker 2: and O, but that can't be.
17:35
Speaker 1: Oh you ate one two, I can't remember. I liked
17:39
Speaker 1: it though. They had that great song.
17:40
Speaker 2: I'll leave it from that record too.
17:42
Speaker 1: That's literally the only song I've heard off of that record.
17:45
Speaker 1: That might be the only Yes song I've ever heard.
17:48
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter. It's still the greatest song of the eighties.
17:51
Speaker 2: You've heard roundabout probably does it go round about?
17:56
Speaker 1: You've got to lose control on the round about.
18:00
Speaker 2: All Right, we're gonna take a break and we'll talk
18:03
Speaker 2: about the deception right after this.
18:32
Speaker 1: Okay, Chuck, So in April nineteen eighty eight, you said
18:36
Speaker 1: that this all happened very quick. It's worth pointing out
18:39
Speaker 1: this entire shebang, especially starting from when they reached the
18:44
Speaker 1: United States till their downfall was less than two years.
18:47
Speaker 1: This was all compressed in just a couple of years.
18:50
Speaker 1: And the whole thing started in April nineteen eighty eight,
18:54
Speaker 1: and after Frank Farrion had his completed recording of Girl
19:01
Speaker 1: Robin Fab started touring Spain in France, so they were
19:04
Speaker 1: promoting it. They were singing this right, so they by
19:07
Speaker 1: this point Farian had said, Hey, you guys, just go
19:11
Speaker 1: go out and just, you know, lip sync to this one,
19:14
Speaker 1: and then when we do the next album, you guys
19:17
Speaker 1: can actually sing, and that was one of the big
19:19
Speaker 1: reasons that they bought into it. So by this time,
19:21
Speaker 1: by April nineteen eighty eight, they were well aware what
19:23
Speaker 1: was going on.
19:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, and by the way, dear listener, if you hear
19:27
Speaker 2: a gentle thudding in the background, I don't know if
19:30
Speaker 2: it's coming through, but it's not me banging the desk.
19:32
Speaker 2: There are some construction going on next door, and I
19:36
Speaker 2: can't control these people. They basically said, I'm sorry.
19:39
Speaker 1: They have minds of their own.
19:40
Speaker 2: They have minds and they have a job to do,
19:42
Speaker 2: so they're doing it. But you may hear like a
19:44
Speaker 2: low level bump every now and then, so I can't
19:46
Speaker 2: hear anything all right, So maybe it's not coming through.
19:48
Speaker 2: I don't know. But anyway, back to the story, this
19:53
Speaker 2: song was big in Germany. Like you said, did you
19:58
Speaker 2: say that I didn't know. Okay, it was big in Germany,
20:01
Speaker 2: became a number one hit in Germany, and you know,
20:04
Speaker 2: was like sort of a thing in Europe early on
20:06
Speaker 2: before it got to America, and right out of the bat,
20:10
Speaker 2: right off the bat, out of the gate in Europe
20:13
Speaker 2: when this song became a hit, Shaw, the original rapper
20:17
Speaker 2: guy who Josh doesn't think raps no, basically came out
20:21
Speaker 2: to the media in Europe and was like, by the way,
20:23
Speaker 2: that's me And then that got shut down really really quickly.
20:28
Speaker 2: He says it's because he was threatened by Frank Farrion.
20:31
Speaker 2: Frank Farrian says, no, I paid him like mid you know,
20:35
Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty grand to keep his mouth shut.
20:38
Speaker 2: But at any rate, this is the first time that
20:40
Speaker 2: like the cat was out of the bag a little bit,
20:43
Speaker 2: and rumors were kind of going around to the point
20:47
Speaker 2: basically where on a radio station in Europe they had
20:49
Speaker 2: a DJ that was like, hey, like, you guys, are
20:52
Speaker 2: you really singing this? Like sing on the air to
20:55
Speaker 2: prove that you're really good singers?
20:57
Speaker 1: Right? I saw this described as by the time you know,
21:01
Speaker 1: it finally came out, very poorly kept secret in the
21:04
Speaker 1: music industry. Yeah, but that is definitely where it would
21:07
Speaker 1: have started for sure. Also, people who met them and
21:12
Speaker 1: were in the music industry where like, these guys did
21:14
Speaker 1: not sing that they were talked about as Hans and Franz.
21:20
Speaker 1: They sounded like Hans and Franz, is how one interviewer
21:23
Speaker 1: put it. Because they have very thick European accents, and
21:27
Speaker 1: apparently Rob no Fab. His English was so shaky that
21:34
Speaker 1: he just usually didn't talk very much. He'd interject a
21:36
Speaker 1: word here or there, but Rob spoke for them most
21:39
Speaker 1: of the time.
21:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean in their favor, Like the way someone
21:45
Speaker 2: sings is not often not the way that they talk, right.
21:49
Speaker 2: But it was a fairly thinly veiled scheme, you know.
21:54
Speaker 2: It's just like a lot of people early on were like,
21:57
Speaker 2: something's not adding up here when you interview.
21:59
Speaker 1: These guys, right, exactly, all right.
22:01
Speaker 2: So Rob and Fab are still beating this drum, and
22:04
Speaker 2: this is something that you'll see as a team through
22:06
Speaker 2: this whole thing. They never ever stopped asking to sing
22:10
Speaker 2: their own stuff. Very important pleading with Frank Ferry and
22:13
Speaker 2: to let them sing their stuff. They really wanted to
22:15
Speaker 2: do it. I get the sense that they didn't feel
22:18
Speaker 2: great about the arrangement at all, and that they wanted
22:21
Speaker 2: to sing. They wanted to they thought they were good
22:23
Speaker 2: singers and they wanted to sing.
22:24
Speaker 1: They also felt like they were trapped in I think
22:28
Speaker 1: Rob Pudder fab put it as a golden prison. Oh yeah,
22:32
Speaker 1: they've been having twenty thousand dollars advances, fuzzy handcuffs from
22:37
Speaker 1: Frank Ferry and very early on, and these guys like
22:41
Speaker 1: to party. There's no two ways around that. So these
22:45
Speaker 1: two twenty five year old good looking honks who were
22:48
Speaker 1: suddenly kind of they started out on the club scene
22:51
Speaker 1: and now they were the most popular dudes at the
22:53
Speaker 1: clubs in Munich with money twenty grand each. Yeah, it
22:57
Speaker 1: didn't stick around for very long. So they would have
23:01
Speaker 1: owed that back to Frank Ferran and they were like, well,
23:05
Speaker 1: now we're really stuck, Like we're not only kind of
23:08
Speaker 1: looped into this lie, we're financially like obligate.
23:12
Speaker 2: Into this yea, yeah, absolutely, I think as again, like
23:17
Speaker 2: you get a lot of stories from the people involved.
23:21
Speaker 2: Rob said later on that while this was happening in
23:24
Speaker 2: the early days, he got in touch with people from
23:26
Speaker 2: Boni m and they said, by the way, this Frank
23:29
Speaker 2: Farring guy's a rat and he wouldn't let us sing,
23:33
Speaker 2: and he sang the songs and it was all a
23:34
Speaker 2: big scam. And so I think early on Rob sort
23:38
Speaker 2: of saw the writing on the walls, like we're in
23:41
Speaker 2: this deal where we're probably not going to get to sing.
23:44
Speaker 2: But their star was rising. In early nineteen eighty nine
23:48
Speaker 2: is when they hit the United States when they signed
23:50
Speaker 2: with Arista Records division of BMG. Who was the president
23:55
Speaker 2: of BMG at the time was Clive Davis, legendary producer.
23:59
Speaker 1: There's a really a.
24:00
Speaker 2: Documentary on him, by the way, that I highly recommend.
24:02
Speaker 1: I think he was the president of Arista.
24:05
Speaker 2: Oh, I thought he was a president of BMG.
24:07
Speaker 1: I don't think so. I got the I thought he
24:10
Speaker 1: was Arista, but yeah, you might be right.
24:11
Speaker 2: Well either way, Clive Davis is a legend no matter
24:14
Speaker 2: who he works for. Yeah, and great documentary on him.
24:18
Speaker 2: And they signed them on the strength of Girl you
24:21
Speaker 2: Know It's True, released it as a single at the
24:23
Speaker 2: end of January nineteen eighty nine, and then repackaged the
24:29
Speaker 2: European version of the album for the United States as
24:32
Speaker 2: the album title Girl you Know It's True. Did some remixes,
24:35
Speaker 2: took some songs off, put some on, and then released
24:38
Speaker 2: the full album. And the dates are important here because
24:42
Speaker 2: of how quickly it was in March of nineteen eighty nine.
24:45
Speaker 1: Okay, so they the singles released at the end of
24:49
Speaker 1: January nineteen eighty nine. The album comes out in March
24:51
Speaker 1: of nineteen eighty nine. And I referred earlier to Girl
24:54
Speaker 1: you Know It's True as their one of their second
24:57
Speaker 1: biggest hits. It only reached number two on the Billboard charts.
25:01
Speaker 1: I say only, but it's kind of surprising because that's
25:05
Speaker 1: the one that everybody thinks of with Milli Vanilli. Maybe
25:07
Speaker 1: it's because that was everyone's introduction to it. But it
25:10
Speaker 1: hit number two in April. So the following month overall,
25:14
Speaker 1: that album worldwide sold eleven million copies. Mm hm. It
25:19
Speaker 1: is so hard to sell eleven million copies of a record,
25:24
Speaker 1: It's astounding. And seven million of those copies were sold
25:27
Speaker 1: in the United States alone.
25:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they had a number two hit in April.
25:31
Speaker 2: They had a number one with baby Don't Forget My
25:34
Speaker 2: Number in July, had another number one with Girl I'm
25:37
Speaker 2: Gonna Miss You in September.
25:39
Speaker 1: You may maybe watch that video. I watched it too,
25:44
Speaker 1: just like an hour ago. She's like, look, when you
25:46
Speaker 1: watch the part where he goes, oh, I'll think of
25:50
Speaker 1: it later, but there's a there's like a refrain that
25:53
Speaker 1: he keeps hitting throughout the video, and he does not
25:56
Speaker 1: lip sync it correctly one time in the whole video.
25:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, well music videos too, though a lot of that lipsing.
26:02
Speaker 1: He wasn't great, to be fair, true, but this was
26:05
Speaker 1: the point. Yeah, And I guess in hindsight, you're looking
26:08
Speaker 1: for it, so you could see it. But yeah, she
26:10
Speaker 1: seemed to have noticed it pretty early on and then
26:13
Speaker 1: blame it on.
26:13
Speaker 2: The rain was their final number one in November, and
26:17
Speaker 2: then All or Nothing was a number four in February
26:20
Speaker 2: of ninety So they had number one hits in I'm Sorry,
26:24
Speaker 2: number two hit in April, then number one hits in July, September, November,
26:28
Speaker 2: and then a number four in February of the next year. Right,
26:31
Speaker 2: that's as hot as any band in the history of music.
26:34
Speaker 1: Yes, dude. Five singles released, all five in the top
26:37
Speaker 1: five Billboard charts, three number ones. It's astounding. Like I
26:41
Speaker 1: knew Milli Vanilli was big, but when you see it
26:43
Speaker 1: on paper like that, uh huh, Like you said, like
26:47
Speaker 1: there's very few people that have ever matched that kind
26:49
Speaker 1: of thing. And they were just man the definition of
26:53
Speaker 1: a flash in the pan. They just came on and
26:55
Speaker 1: blew up and blew out in no time at all.
26:59
Speaker 1: Tune in, turn out, turnout, tune in. What is it? Okay?
27:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, So they figured that they would be better served
27:08
Speaker 2: and probably a little more protected and have more leverage
27:11
Speaker 2: if they weren't in Germany anymore under the literal thumb
27:14
Speaker 2: of Frank Ferian. So they relocated to Beverly Hills just
27:17
Speaker 2: a few months later in June of that year. They
27:21
Speaker 2: this is my senior of high school, by the way,
27:22
Speaker 2: just to put that perspective.
27:23
Speaker 1: Right, I was thirteen going into I was this eighth.
27:27
Speaker 2: Grade, okay, And by this time I was listening to
27:30
Speaker 2: The Cure and Ram and the Smiths and Excess and
27:33
Speaker 2: all that stuff. Like this is when I was like
27:35
Speaker 2: starting in like eighty six, eighty seven on, I started
27:38
Speaker 2: getting into like my little alternative thing. Cool, but I,
27:42
Speaker 2: like everyone knew this stuff. You couldn't escape. But I
27:45
Speaker 2: was an MTV kid, so I knew all these songs.
27:47
Speaker 2: It wasn't my thing, but like I can sing them
27:49
Speaker 2: all still.
27:50
Speaker 1: The whole world was singing Millie Vanilli at the time,
27:53
Speaker 1: but baby, are you kidding me? Yeah?
27:56
Speaker 2: So they sign and this is a pretty key detail too,
27:58
Speaker 2: with a very big manager, a music manager named Sandy
28:02
Speaker 2: Gallon of Gallen Morey Associates and.
28:06
Speaker 1: You remember him right?
28:07
Speaker 2: Oh wait, where was that from?
28:09
Speaker 1: Is Dolly Parton's manager who truss over?
28:12
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, I knew that sounded familiar.
28:14
Speaker 1: He managed Milli Vanilli and Dolly Parton.
28:17
Speaker 2: Who else do you need?
28:18
Speaker 1: Yeah? Really?
28:19
Speaker 2: All right? So nineteen eighty nine they have blown up.
28:25
Speaker 2: They became part of the first Club MTV tour alongside
28:30
Speaker 2: was not Was Information Society, Tone Loake and Paula Abdul.
28:34
Speaker 2: It's a good tour, good tour. But like the suspicion
28:38
Speaker 2: that started in Europe followed them here, and like we
28:41
Speaker 2: mentioned with the interviews and their accents and broken English, like,
28:45
Speaker 2: things started to go a little south here as well,
28:47
Speaker 2: to the point where, like just a few months after
28:50
Speaker 2: they came here, they stopped doing radio and TV interviews.
28:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, they would only do print. But ironically they were
28:56
Speaker 1: allowed to use their voices for an appearance on a
28:59
Speaker 1: Super Mario three cartoon where they they play themselves. But
29:03
Speaker 1: they're kidnapped by Bowser's daughter and turned into accountants because
29:06
Speaker 1: they won't performed for her. And if you go watch
29:09
Speaker 1: that clips of that that cartoon, you're like, wow, those
29:12
Speaker 1: guys really did not sound anything like they sounded on
29:15
Speaker 1: the record.
29:17
Speaker 2: I saw a clip. I'm sure we both watched like
29:20
Speaker 2: tons of clips, but there was one clip where they
29:22
Speaker 2: were trying to prove they could sing and they did
29:24
Speaker 2: this little a cappella harmony bit and they were just flat.
29:30
Speaker 1: It was.
29:30
Speaker 2: It wasn't like they were completely tone deaf or anything,
29:34
Speaker 2: and fab actually can sing a little bit. I think
29:37
Speaker 2: Rob couldn't sing that great, huh, But they you know,
29:40
Speaker 2: they were quote unquote harmonizing and sort of were like
29:44
Speaker 2: did you get a load of that? But it was
29:45
Speaker 2: super flat.
29:47
Speaker 1: It was. It was not great.
29:48
Speaker 2: But I think like producers have done more with less
29:53
Speaker 2: with auto tune and all that stuff. For sure.
29:55
Speaker 1: That is a big thing. That's that's something to kind
29:57
Speaker 1: of like put it into context, like this is this
30:00
Speaker 1: is maybe the world's entrade to what producers exactly did
30:04
Speaker 1: and in a way kind of established it is okay
30:07
Speaker 1: to start messing with the talent's abilities. Yeah, it made it.
30:13
Speaker 1: It was the inflection point where it went from an
30:16
Speaker 1: emphasis on talent and creativity to an ability to package
30:21
Speaker 1: an artists and sell them. And a lot of people
30:23
Speaker 1: blame MTV for this happening in MTV says, that's absurd, right, So.
30:29
Speaker 2: We have to talk about what happened in July, and
30:32
Speaker 2: again this is they had four of their hits after
30:35
Speaker 2: July of that year, despite the fact that at a
30:38
Speaker 2: concert in Bristol, Connecticut, there were lip syncing very famously.
30:43
Speaker 2: It skipped or it got hung up or whatever. Girl,
30:47
Speaker 2: you know it's true. There's a very brief clip on
30:50
Speaker 2: it from a VH one special I Think Behind the
30:53
Speaker 2: Music where although Livia says that Variety said it wasn't
30:58
Speaker 2: as dramatic as go you know it's, girl, you know
31:01
Speaker 2: it's but that's what it showed in the video, and
31:04
Speaker 2: they they didn't know how to handle it. They if
31:07
Speaker 2: they would have ridden it out, they probably would have
31:09
Speaker 2: been okay because a lot of like big dancing performers
31:12
Speaker 2: lip sync and everyone kind of knows this at least
31:16
Speaker 2: parts of their shows. If they would have stayed up there,
31:19
Speaker 2: they might have been okay. But they freaked out and
31:22
Speaker 2: Rob ran off stage. In a panic, basically.
31:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. And it was Downtown Julie Brown, who I
31:29
Speaker 1: guess was touring with the club MTV tour, oh yeah,
31:32
Speaker 1: who talked him into going back out. And I was
31:35
Speaker 1: reading a Variety article written in twenty twenty about this
31:38
Speaker 1: and they referred to her as Julie Downtown Brown. And
31:42
Speaker 1: I suspect that article was written by a millennial.
31:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, who probably doesn't even know whabbah blabblah blabbah.
31:49
Speaker 1: Julie down dumb. Do you remember that? Yeah? Totally.
31:52
Speaker 2: I forgot all about that and it just popped into
31:54
Speaker 2: my head. Downtown Julie Brown.
31:55
Speaker 1: Yeah. And what's funny is one of the reasons why
31:57
Speaker 1: she went by Downtown Julie Brown is because there was
31:59
Speaker 1: another are equally famous Julie Brown on MTV at the
32:02
Speaker 1: same time. Remember the redhead of Julie Brown or kind
32:07
Speaker 1: of a weird I feel like Phoebe Hermann adjacent type character.
32:13
Speaker 2: You're not thinking of Judy Tanuda, are you?
32:14
Speaker 1: No? I'm not, okay, look up Julie Brown. All right, okay,
32:19
Speaker 1: I will fine. You have with you right now. Yeah,
32:22
Speaker 1: I'll keep talking if you want to.
32:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, go ahead, take this next bit so that was
32:27
Speaker 2: like a big deal.
32:27
Speaker 1: That Bristol, Connecticut show to them. They felt like that
32:31
Speaker 1: that was the beginning of the end, and even still
32:34
Speaker 1: in later interviews they would point to that as like
32:36
Speaker 1: that was the beginning of the end of Millie Vanilli.
32:38
Speaker 1: They knew that this this act that they've been carrying
32:42
Speaker 1: on was unraveling, basically, and they later said that they
32:47
Speaker 1: were unhappy, nervous, scared, stressed the entire time, and they
32:54
Speaker 1: kept partying. A lot of people say that they kept
32:57
Speaker 1: partying because they were so stressed. I don't know if
32:59
Speaker 1: that's true not, but they it's understandable that they would
33:03
Speaker 1: have been kind of stressed.
33:05
Speaker 2: By the way Julie Brown. I totally recognize her now, sure,
33:09
Speaker 2: and that's who I was thinking of. And I might
33:12
Speaker 2: have said Julie t Nuda. It was Judy Tanuda, the comedian.
33:14
Speaker 1: Yeah you said Judy.
33:15
Speaker 2: I think I did. Okay, I think I thought that
33:18
Speaker 2: was Judy Tananuda. But I totally remember Julie Brown now.
33:22
Speaker 1: But she's similar in character, not quite as like over
33:25
Speaker 1: the top as Judy Tanuda, but similar in.
33:27
Speaker 2: A flamboyant Yeah, yeah, for sure, she was great. I
33:31
Speaker 2: wasn't listening to you Where Were You?
33:33
Speaker 1: I was talking about how they were stressed and nervous
33:35
Speaker 1: all the time and now they felt like this thing
33:37
Speaker 1: was really unraveling, and that they called the Bristol, Connecticut
33:40
Speaker 1: show the beginning of the end.
33:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. So while this is going on, like
33:45
Speaker 2: Millie Vanilli is having all this chart success, but they
33:48
Speaker 2: were never a critical darling. No, in fact, they were
33:53
Speaker 2: and I think people for sure piled on a lot
33:55
Speaker 2: more after the Secret came out, but even before that,
33:59
Speaker 2: they became a little bit of a symbol of what
34:02
Speaker 2: serious music critics kind of thought was the unraveling of
34:08
Speaker 2: pop music and how shallow it was and how like
34:11
Speaker 2: overproduced and arranged everything was and kind of the worst
34:16
Speaker 2: version of what pop music ultimately became before it kind
34:20
Speaker 2: of course corrected.
34:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, And a lot of that came from the usual
34:23
Speaker 1: suspects the rock community, who yeah, arranged themselves as like
34:28
Speaker 1: the arbiters of what was music and what was not. Yeah.
34:31
Speaker 1: And now that we're at this part, I really regret
34:34
Speaker 1: talking about whether that was rap or not and the
34:36
Speaker 1: girl you know it's true song because it's essentially the
34:39
Speaker 1: same thing. But yes, Milli Vanilli was an easy target,
34:42
Speaker 1: even before they were outed as frauds, right, Yeah, so
34:47
Speaker 1: I think that made it all the more sweet for
34:49
Speaker 1: the people who were rooting against them to have their
34:52
Speaker 1: wildest dreams come true and Milli Vanilli be outed as frauds,
34:56
Speaker 1: Like there are people rooting against them again though, like
35:00
Speaker 1: this is a this is a really complicating factor, Chuck,
35:04
Speaker 1: how much of Millie Vanilli's popularity then, if the music
35:08
Speaker 1: wasn't that good, or you know, if you were a
35:10
Speaker 1: music critic, how much of Milli Vanilli's like success came
35:14
Speaker 1: from Robin Fab and the work that they were doing.
35:17
Speaker 1: They definitely did some work. At the very peak, they
35:21
Speaker 1: did one hundred and seven cities in an eight month tour.
35:25
Speaker 1: That's a lot of work. And also people loved to
35:29
Speaker 1: let like their look, They thought they were hot. They
35:31
Speaker 1: loved their dances, that that little dance move where they
35:35
Speaker 1: faced one another and just like kind of ran in
35:38
Speaker 1: place in front of everyone was doing that. Everyone did
35:42
Speaker 1: that dance move, whether they were serious or not, everyone
35:45
Speaker 1: was doing that dance bood. So, how much of their
35:47
Speaker 1: popularity can you you know, ascribe to Rob and Fab
35:50
Speaker 1: And I would say quite a bit.
35:52
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, I mean one hundred and seven shows. I'm
35:56
Speaker 2: fairly tired from our big three show swing that we
35:58
Speaker 2: just did.
35:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, by the way, way, thank you DC Boston in
36:01
Speaker 1: Toronto for fun times.
36:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was great shows. These guys also didn't do
36:06
Speaker 2: themselves a lot of favors. I think, in particular Rob,
36:10
Speaker 2: who was a little bit more vocal, just because I
36:13
Speaker 2: think he felt more comfortable speaking English in front of microphones,
36:18
Speaker 2: and I you know, looking back though, like the guy
36:20
Speaker 2: was probably scared and defensive. But he would say some
36:24
Speaker 2: kind of dumb stuff sometimes like in an article or
36:26
Speaker 2: a lest stuff that wouldn't do him any favors. I
36:29
Speaker 2: can't remember which magazine, but when I think it's time,
36:32
Speaker 2: there's a quote here where he says, musically, we're more
36:35
Speaker 2: talented than any Bob Dylan. Musically, we're more talented than
36:39
Speaker 2: Paul McCartney, Mick Jagger. His lines are not clear. He
36:43
Speaker 2: don't know how he should produce a sound. I'm the
36:46
Speaker 2: new modern rock and roll, I'm the new Elvis.
36:50
Speaker 1: So Rob said that that was wildly taking out of context,
36:54
Speaker 1: that he didn't say anything like that. The clothes direct quote, right,
36:59
Speaker 1: I know, But the closest that he says he said
37:02
Speaker 1: was that, you know, Elvis was huge in his generation
37:05
Speaker 1: and they're huge in their generation. Whether he was misquoted
37:09
Speaker 1: or not, this is a potential pr disaster for this
37:15
Speaker 1: obviously short lived group. So everybody involved, the record label,
37:22
Speaker 1: Ferry and their managers all decided that they needed to
37:26
Speaker 1: go on a press tour to basically, you know, explain
37:29
Speaker 1: this away. And then somebody else decided that they needed
37:31
Speaker 1: to work a medley of The Beatles, the Rolling Stones
37:36
Speaker 1: and Bob Dylan into their show and they were going
37:41
Speaker 1: to go forward on it, and Robin fab or the
37:43
Speaker 1: two that had the sense to be like, that's a
37:45
Speaker 1: terrible idea, We're not going to do that, So they
37:47
Speaker 1: dropped that. But that was how they were going to
37:50
Speaker 1: show that they didn't think they were bigger than The Stones,
37:55
Speaker 1: the Beatles and Bob Dylan by doing a medley of
37:58
Speaker 1: their songs at their lives. Great idea, I think so too.
38:03
Speaker 2: All right, let's take our second break and we're gonna
38:06
Speaker 2: come back and talk about the rest right after this.
38:34
Speaker 2: All right, So here's the question, which is and Lvia
38:38
Speaker 2: titles this section that who knew what when, because that's
38:41
Speaker 2: sort of the big question. So Rob and Fab, their manager,
38:45
Speaker 2: Sandy Gallon, Clive Davis, and it seems like a lot
38:49
Speaker 2: of people on the inside in the music scene knew
38:52
Speaker 2: this was going on in the summer of nineteen eighty nine,
38:56
Speaker 2: like while they were putting out these songs and having
38:59
Speaker 2: these big hits. There's a guy named Todd Headley who
39:03
Speaker 2: used to work for Milli Vanilly. I believe he ended
39:05
Speaker 2: up being their manager at a certain point afterward when
39:09
Speaker 2: they were just Robin Fab. But he said, you know,
39:12
Speaker 2: everyone that was connected to this knew this. I don't
39:16
Speaker 2: know like necessarily when, but everybody knew this. As far
39:21
Speaker 2: as Arista goes. They said, well, we didn't know it.
39:23
Speaker 2: Frank Ferrian I guess I bet you there was some
39:26
Speaker 2: handshake deal or something going on. Yeah, because he took
39:29
Speaker 2: He basically came out very vehemently saying that like, no,
39:32
Speaker 2: I Rista didn't know anything about this, right, But everyone
39:36
Speaker 2: knew basically on the inside.
39:38
Speaker 1: Yes, But all of those people publicly said that they
39:41
Speaker 1: did not know. I mean, can you imagine the record
39:43
Speaker 1: company being like, we had no idea. These guys didn't
39:46
Speaker 1: sing on the on the tracks. Yeah, but that's what
39:49
Speaker 1: they said. So and the whole time. Remember, just bear
39:53
Speaker 1: in mind they kept trying to fight to sing, like
39:56
Speaker 1: their whole sideline was trying to convince Frank Ferry unto
39:59
Speaker 1: let them sing on the next album. Right, And so
40:03
Speaker 1: finally I believe that the whole thing came to a head.
40:09
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that was evidence. I'm sorry. There was evidence
40:11
Speaker 1: that shows that at least Clive Davis from Arista knew
40:15
Speaker 1: that this was going on, because they seed him on
40:18
Speaker 1: letters from their lawyers demanding that Frank Ferry and let
40:21
Speaker 1: them sing on the next album. So if Clive Davis
40:25
Speaker 1: wasn't like, what do you mean on the next album?
40:27
Speaker 1: Why wouldn't you let him sing? If he didn't look
40:29
Speaker 1: into it, that's so bad. The implication is that he
40:32
Speaker 1: wouldn't have looked into it because he knew exactly what
40:34
Speaker 1: that meant.
40:35
Speaker 2: Right.
40:35
Speaker 1: So the whole thing came to a head with the
40:37
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety Grammy ceremony, right.
40:39
Speaker 2: That's right. They were, you know, obviously going to be
40:43
Speaker 2: a strong contender for Best New Artists. As the story goes,
40:48
Speaker 2: Clive Davis did not want to submit them because he
40:50
Speaker 2: knew it was a fraud, but Sandy Gallon and the
40:54
Speaker 2: management company said nope, We're going to submit him. They
40:57
Speaker 2: won Best of course, they won Best New Art Artists
41:00
Speaker 2: at the Grammy who else would and they performed at
41:03
Speaker 2: the ceremony, lip synced at the ceremony.
41:06
Speaker 1: They owned the Grammys that year, they did, and.
41:08
Speaker 2: The producer the Grammys was basically later on, just like,
41:11
Speaker 2: you know, everybody really sings. Is one of the few
41:13
Speaker 2: times in forty years of doing this that I've let
41:16
Speaker 2: someone lip sync. But that is where things kind of
41:19
Speaker 2: went downhill. I think the Grammys later said, like, all
41:24
Speaker 2: you had to do was put somewhere on the record,
41:26
Speaker 2: even in the smallest print, like Millie Vanilli is unless
41:31
Speaker 2: the original singers, But like, we can't let you keep
41:34
Speaker 2: these Grammys, So we got to take them back.
41:36
Speaker 1: Right, And they actually fully intended to. Apparently the day
41:40
Speaker 1: after the Grammys said we want our Grammys back, Michael Green,
41:45
Speaker 1: the president of it, said we want our Grammys back,
41:47
Speaker 1: something along those lines. They had already had a press
41:51
Speaker 1: comfort schedule where they intended to give them back.
41:53
Speaker 2: They'll not give them back, give them to those singers, right.
41:55
Speaker 1: Initially they had wanted to, and apparently the Grammys were like,
41:58
Speaker 1: do not give those to anybody. It's not up to
42:00
Speaker 1: you to give them the anyone. And the question is
42:02
Speaker 1: whether or not they were going to give the Grammy
42:04
Speaker 1: to the next runner up. I can't remember. I think
42:08
Speaker 1: Tone Loke, Information Society, I can't remember who else, But
42:14
Speaker 1: they didn't. There was no Grammy for Best New Artists
42:17
Speaker 1: given out for nineteen ninety because Millie Vanilli's was taken back.
42:22
Speaker 1: And at that press conference, they had their voice coach
42:26
Speaker 1: stand up and say, yeah, these guys can sing. I
42:29
Speaker 1: totally attest to that, And yeah, that was where you
42:34
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier that they kind of like wrapped and sang
42:37
Speaker 1: just these little snippets to show that they could, and
42:39
Speaker 1: it wasn't very good. Yeah, but that was It was
42:43
Speaker 1: a very fateful press conference. But if you watch it,
42:49
Speaker 1: they don't seem at all nervous. They seem like they're
42:52
Speaker 1: soaking in the love still. And I read that during
42:56
Speaker 1: this time they expected the music industry to take them
42:59
Speaker 1: back with arms, because they'd done so much to make
43:02
Speaker 1: Millie Vanilla huge. That just did not happen, all.
43:05
Speaker 2: Right, So that the Grammy snapo was on November nineteenth,
43:10
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety. This happened because five days earlier, Frank Farrion
43:15
Speaker 2: finally came out because these guys would not stop asking
43:18
Speaker 2: him to sing, and it was not only annoying to
43:21
Speaker 2: Frank Farrian, but he was in between a rock and
43:24
Speaker 2: a hard places, like can this thing even go on anymore?
43:27
Speaker 2: So he figured it can't go on. I'm going to
43:29
Speaker 2: hold a press conference. I'm going to expose everything. He
43:33
Speaker 2: disclosed it all and he said, you know, still Arista
43:36
Speaker 2: didn't know anything about this, and Arista they were this.
43:40
Speaker 2: This guy, the VP of Operations, Roy Lott, had a
43:43
Speaker 2: quote where he was like, seven million albums embarrassing? Am
43:46
Speaker 2: I embarrassed? You know, I don't mean the njustified the means,
43:49
Speaker 2: but we sold seven million albums And I'm like, dude,
43:52
Speaker 2: that's the very definition of the end justified thing exactly.
43:56
Speaker 2: I don't think you know what that means.
43:57
Speaker 1: Yeah. So there was a very wide ranging impact from this,
44:02
Speaker 1: like we've kind of talked about, like a lot of
44:04
Speaker 1: people pointed to this and said, see, see, like this
44:07
Speaker 1: isn't about the actual music or the creativity or the
44:11
Speaker 1: talent anymore. It's about packaging people as artists so much
44:14
Speaker 1: so that they didn't even sing on the album. That
44:17
Speaker 1: was the big thing. If it didn't come out that
44:19
Speaker 1: they were lip syncing in concerts, they could have pointed
44:21
Speaker 1: to everybody from Janet Jackson to Paul Abduel and said,
44:24
Speaker 1: they lip SYNCD too. You can't really sing well when
44:27
Speaker 1: you're doing these incredible choreographed dances throughout a whole show.
44:31
Speaker 1: So of course their lip syncing. It wasn't that it
44:35
Speaker 1: was that they didn't even sing on the album, that
44:37
Speaker 1: they had nothing to do with the music aside from
44:40
Speaker 1: the visuals. That that's what really kind of got everybody.
44:43
Speaker 1: But one of the things that it definitely exposes that
44:46
Speaker 1: this is not a standalone incident.
44:49
Speaker 2: No, And it was well known in the music industry
44:52
Speaker 2: that this happened. Martha Wall she was part of the
44:55
Speaker 2: Weather Girls who had the great song It's Raining Men.
44:58
Speaker 2: She was the one who sang that part on the
45:00
Speaker 2: and See Music Factory hit. They again, they hired a
45:03
Speaker 2: model slash singer to sort of pretend like she had
45:06
Speaker 2: done it.
45:06
Speaker 1: Without her knowledge. Oh yeah.
45:09
Speaker 2: The Village People had always been rumored to have not
45:11
Speaker 2: been the actual singers like that first version of the
45:14
Speaker 2: Village People. And I tried to find out if that
45:16
Speaker 2: was true, and I really couldn't see anything definite, but
45:20
Speaker 2: a lot of people were doing this kind of thing
45:22
Speaker 2: here and there. Lawsuits started to be people I think
45:26
Speaker 2: were just sort of fed up, though, And it was
45:28
Speaker 2: the end of the eighties, and I think people, I
45:30
Speaker 2: think styles were changing and tastes were changing, and they're like,
45:33
Speaker 2: we don't want fake music, Like you should start putting
45:37
Speaker 2: like truth on labels, like this wasn't recorded by this,
45:41
Speaker 2: like truth and music labeling. Fans filed class action lawsuits
45:47
Speaker 2: about Millie Vanilly and it was settled by getting up
45:50
Speaker 2: to three dollars from BMG and Arista if you could say,
45:54
Speaker 2: like here's my concert ticket or here's the album that
45:56
Speaker 2: I bought fairy and and you kind of alluded to
45:59
Speaker 2: this early on, and I sort of agree, like it
46:04
Speaker 2: was a fraud, but he was also like this is
46:06
Speaker 2: pop music, and like who cares in Europe? Like no
46:10
Speaker 2: one cares, It's no big deal. Like everyone in America
46:13
Speaker 2: got so riled up about this, and like, you know,
46:15
Speaker 2: these guys made a couple of million bucks.
46:18
Speaker 1: I made money.
46:19
Speaker 2: The guys who really sang it ended up making money,
46:21
Speaker 2: Like who cares?
46:23
Speaker 1: Right?
46:24
Speaker 2: And I sort of get that a little bit because
46:27
Speaker 2: there's a lot more things to be getting a huff about,
46:30
Speaker 2: but I also get it in a way.
46:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think now we do. But we do
46:35
Speaker 1: now because of the rough transition that we went through
46:39
Speaker 1: by being so so let down by Miller Vanilli, I
46:43
Speaker 1: wasn't let down flyar so Robin Fab again. They were
46:48
Speaker 1: expecting to just basically be welcome back into the fold
46:51
Speaker 1: pretty quickly. That this was basically just a speed bump,
46:53
Speaker 1: and now, more than anything, they were released from this
46:56
Speaker 1: golden prison they were in. They didn't have to be
46:58
Speaker 1: stressed out about people finding out their secret any longer.
47:01
Speaker 1: And now finally they could do their own music, and
47:05
Speaker 1: they actually released an album called Robin Fab using their
47:08
Speaker 1: real voices. They showed up on the Arsenio Hall Show
47:11
Speaker 1: to sing live, which they had turned down before because
47:14
Speaker 1: the Arsenio Hall Show required performers to perform live, no
47:18
Speaker 1: lip syncing. So now this is kind of like a
47:20
Speaker 1: triumphant appearance on the Arsenio Hall Show. Their album sold
47:24
Speaker 1: two thousand copies in the US and that was it.
47:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a big flop. I did not know
47:30
Speaker 2: until today that they did a cover version on that
47:33
Speaker 2: album of Cheap Tricks I want you to want me.
47:36
Speaker 1: Oh, I didn't know that either.
47:38
Speaker 2: Listen to it.
47:39
Speaker 1: I definitely will. But so a lot of people are like, yeah,
47:42
Speaker 1: of course it was a flop. They were frauds. I
47:45
Speaker 1: think that one of the reasons, probably the biggest reason
47:48
Speaker 1: it was a flop, is that they released it in
47:49
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three, and nineteen ninety and nineteen ninety three
47:53
Speaker 1: were situated into totally different worlds because Nevermind had come
47:58
Speaker 1: out in September nineteen ninety one, and no one cared
48:01
Speaker 1: a lick about anything that seens THEE Music Factory or
48:04
Speaker 1: Black Fox or Millie Vanilly was putting out. All they
48:08
Speaker 1: wanted was more and more Nirvana and grunge, and give
48:10
Speaker 1: it to us, give us Pearl Jam, give us all
48:12
Speaker 1: that stuff. That's all we care about. So I think
48:14
Speaker 1: that that at least accounts for a significant reason why
48:17
Speaker 1: it was such a flop.
48:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, bad timing for sure, and for I mean that
48:21
Speaker 2: changed all of music. That's when the metal bands were all,
48:24
Speaker 2: I go, what are we supposed to do now? It
48:26
Speaker 2: was a big transition. As far as Robin fab If
48:31
Speaker 2: you haven't seen the behind the music, some pretty sad
48:33
Speaker 2: stuff happened afterward. Rob had a pretty rough life after that.
48:39
Speaker 2: He had a suicide attempt in ninety one. He was
48:42
Speaker 2: in rehab quite a few times. He was arrested a
48:44
Speaker 2: few times. They eventually were going to get back together
48:48
Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety eight to work on something, but on
48:51
Speaker 2: April seventh of that year, he was found dead in
48:54
Speaker 2: a hotel room. And everyone basically agrees that it was
48:58
Speaker 2: an accidental overdose of alcohol and pills, and Fab, you know,
49:05
Speaker 2: was heartbroken and put out a pretty app statement I
49:09
Speaker 2: think was Millie Vanilli was not a disgrace. The only
49:12
Speaker 2: disgrace is how Rob died all alone. Where were the
49:15
Speaker 2: ones that pushed us to the top, who made millions?
49:18
Speaker 2: And it's just that familiar story of sort of getting
49:21
Speaker 2: used and then kicked to the curb and forgotten about,
49:25
Speaker 2: you know, chewed up by a bit more powerful people.
49:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, so Fab. Actually they were both really like
49:32
Speaker 1: into drugs and drinking, and Fab made it out. I
49:37
Speaker 1: read that he paid for one of Rob's stints in rehab,
49:41
Speaker 1: so he made it out. He still sings today. In
49:44
Speaker 1: twenty fifteen, he joined up with John Davis, one of
49:47
Speaker 1: the original singers of Millie Vanilli, and they toured I
49:51
Speaker 1: think as face meets Voice. Yeah. So they performed some
49:54
Speaker 1: of Milli Vanilli's songs on tour. And one thing that
49:59
Speaker 1: I am so looking forward to I can't even stand
50:02
Speaker 1: it is apparently, finally, at long last, we're going to
50:05
Speaker 1: get a Milli Vanilli biopic. Yeah. Did you see these
50:09
Speaker 1: guys that are playing them? No? Is it dead on?
50:12
Speaker 2: Oh? I'm texting you right now.
50:14
Speaker 1: Dude, better than ice Cube son playing ice Cube.
50:17
Speaker 2: Oh, I didn't know that was happening.
50:18
Speaker 1: No, that was in Uh what was the NWA biopic?
50:23
Speaker 2: Oh?
50:23
Speaker 1: Was he in that? Yeah? He played ice Cube. That
50:25
Speaker 1: was ice Cube's kid.
50:27
Speaker 2: Straight out of con Oh no, ice Cube. I thought
50:29
Speaker 2: I thought you said Vanilla Ice.
50:32
Speaker 1: No.
50:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I can't remember his name. The he was
50:36
Speaker 2: in Cocaine Beer Too, the movie you hated it?
50:39
Speaker 1: I know. Vanilla Ice biopic, by the way, is called
50:42
Speaker 1: cool as Ice.
50:43
Speaker 2: Is that a real thing too?
50:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's not really a biopic, but it kind
50:46
Speaker 1: of is. Did you see the picture?
50:48
Speaker 2: Do you have your phone?
50:49
Speaker 1: I do?
50:50
Speaker 2: Sorry, look at these guys, two unknowns. I think they
50:53
Speaker 2: spent years trying to find the right people. But it's
50:56
Speaker 2: a guy named Ilan Bin Ali is fab name tijon Niji.
51:03
Speaker 2: I'm not sure to pronounce that. I go as the
51:05
Speaker 2: best as I can do. And they look these guys up.
51:07
Speaker 2: They are in costume as Millie Vanilli, and it's uncanny
51:12
Speaker 2: how much they look like those guys.
51:13
Speaker 1: It definitely is. It's pretty pretty well, that's really something.
51:16
Speaker 1: I can't wait to see it.
51:17
Speaker 2: So I hope it's going to be good.
51:19
Speaker 1: And supposedly a lot of people who are involved in
51:21
Speaker 1: the actual band, like or their relatives, are associate or
51:25
Speaker 1: executive producers on this movie too, so it should be
51:28
Speaker 1: pretty authentic.
51:29
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think the icing on top is the executive
51:32
Speaker 2: producer was the was that guy who runs three hundred
51:36
Speaker 2: Entertainment now who was the original lyricist for Girl You Know?
51:40
Speaker 1: It's true?
51:41
Speaker 2: Pretty amazing, isn't that cool?
51:42
Speaker 1: Very cool? And if you want to see something really cute.
51:45
Speaker 1: When you me and I were doing our Milli Vanilli
51:47
Speaker 1: research on YouTube last night, we ran across a channel
51:50
Speaker 1: called Africa React and it's this super cute girl who
51:55
Speaker 1: listens to songs that she'd never heard for the first
51:57
Speaker 1: time and it's just reaction videos. But one of the
51:59
Speaker 1: ones she did was Girl you Know it's true, and
52:02
Speaker 1: she gave an official thumbs up to it. It's really cute. Cool. Yeah,
52:05
Speaker 1: those were fun. You got anything else? Nothing else? All right, everybody?
52:08
Speaker 1: That means it's time for listener mail.
52:13
Speaker 2: I'm gonna call this. My husband fell asleep at your
52:17
Speaker 2: show in Boston. Hey, guys, got tickets to the Medford
52:21
Speaker 2: show and was excited to see folks live for the
52:23
Speaker 2: first time. My husband agreed to join me and met
52:25
Speaker 2: me in Medford after a few days at a work
52:28
Speaker 2: conference in New York. We took our seats, and just
52:30
Speaker 2: as the lights went down and you all appeared on stage,
52:33
Speaker 2: we laughed at your jokes, we owed at the topic,
52:35
Speaker 2: and settled in to be educated. Much to my surprise,
52:38
Speaker 2: I noticed my husband next to me doing the head
52:41
Speaker 2: bob and bouncing, beginning to nod off. About ten minutes
52:44
Speaker 2: in Wow, he dozed off all I did my best
52:47
Speaker 2: to keep from leaning over onto the guy next to us.
52:50
Speaker 2: He finally did wake up after the second commercial break
52:53
Speaker 2: and enjoyed the ending. He claims that I've been conditioning
52:55
Speaker 2: him to fall asleep when stuff he should know starts,
52:58
Speaker 2: but I believe it may have been and the let
53:01
Speaker 2: down from the excitement of the conference and the work trip,
53:04
Speaker 2: but we both had a great time. Wouldn't hesitate to
53:06
Speaker 2: see you live again someday, and thanks so much for
53:08
Speaker 2: taking a trip up north. I'm not gonna read Maggie's
53:11
Speaker 2: last name because her husband may be embarrassed, so that
53:14
Speaker 2: is just from Maggie in the Northeast.
53:17
Speaker 1: Thanks a lot, Maggie, that's hilarious. The idea of your
53:20
Speaker 1: husband I'm falling asleep to us normally and then having
53:24
Speaker 1: it half an in person too because he's so easy.
53:27
Speaker 1: I love it. I love it too well. If you
53:28
Speaker 1: want to be like Maggie and get in touch with us,
53:30
Speaker 1: we love it when people do that, you can send
53:33
Speaker 1: us an email to Stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.
53:39
Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For
53:42
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