Latest / PNW Haunts & Homicides / What Lies Beneath the Oregon Zoo

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What Lies Beneath the Oregon Zoo · PNW Haunts & Homicides

0:01
Speaker 1: It was one hundred and sixty acre poor farm and
0:04
Speaker 1: sanatorium for the mentally ill in those with infectious diseases.
0:09
Speaker 1: There were at least three cemeteries on the farm, but
0:12
Speaker 1: no records of who was laid to rest or where
0:15
Speaker 1: any of the burial plots were located. Oh good lord. Yeah,
0:20
Speaker 1: so I think pretty much the majority of the people
0:22
Speaker 1: buried there were people that were unclaimed by their family, right,
0:28
Speaker 1: probably most of the people that were living there.
0:31
Speaker 2: Yeah. Wow, I wonder why it would be haunted.
0:39
Speaker 1: Hi Caitlin, Hi Cassie. Hi, creepy people. Helly. This is
0:46
Speaker 1: p ANDW Haunts and Homicides, where we chat about true crime,
0:49
Speaker 1: the paranormal, in all things creepy and spooky and scary
0:54
Speaker 1: in the Pacific Northwest or the PNW. If you're nasty,
0:59
Speaker 1: if you're nice, we're the nastiest. We also do a.
1:02
Speaker 2: Little tarot reading at the end of every episode for
1:05
Speaker 2: a little bit of deeper insight into our topic. I
1:08
Speaker 2: don't think that we'll need any for this one. It
1:11
Speaker 2: is oh dark thirty here, and I'm a little bit
1:18
Speaker 2: concerned about what recording one of Cassie's episodes this close
1:23
Speaker 2: to bedtime is going to do to me. I guess
1:27
Speaker 2: we're all gonna find out together.
1:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have a really really spooky one for you today.
1:34
Speaker 1: Oh great tonight.
1:36
Speaker 2: How many feet should I have up in my chair?
1:39
Speaker 1: Hmmm? Well, I'm gonna start off by telling you about
1:43
Speaker 1: my little trip to the zoo Exo, so you get
1:47
Speaker 1: a little palette cleanser before we start.
1:50
Speaker 2: I feel like the palette cleanser is really more needed after,
1:53
Speaker 2: but I'm going to let that go.
1:55
Speaker 1: Well, we have to start with it, so sorry, it's
1:57
Speaker 1: my episode, my rule.
1:59
Speaker 2: Fine.
2:00
Speaker 1: So I went to the zoo the other day. It
2:03
Speaker 1: was Tula two, the elephant's first birthday. She's just a
2:07
Speaker 1: little thing. I mean, she's kind of big mouth compared
2:11
Speaker 1: to the bigger elephants. She's so tiny. She's so cute
2:15
Speaker 1: and little. And it was her birthday and they had
2:17
Speaker 1: special elephant ears with sprinkles and chocolate and caramel drizzle.
2:21
Speaker 1: I know you don't like the chocolate, but they had
2:22
Speaker 1: a caramel drizzle. Yeah, and then we all sang her
2:26
Speaker 1: Happy Birthday. It was the cutest fucking thing ever.
2:30
Speaker 2: Honestly, I love that for her.
2:32
Speaker 1: I know, it was so sweet, like she was out
2:35
Speaker 1: there and like everyone was well, I couldn't really see because,
2:38
Speaker 1: fun fact, I was in a motorized scooter. Yeah, because
2:41
Speaker 1: I live in the life may or may not have
2:44
Speaker 1: broken my ankle. It's fine, but it was kind of
2:49
Speaker 1: fun rolling around the zoo with an electric scooter. I'm
2:52
Speaker 1: not gonna lie.
2:53
Speaker 2: I mean, do you even need ankles?
2:56
Speaker 1: Like I mean, I always joke out ankles, and I'm like,
3:00
Speaker 1: oh my god, now I actually have a cankle. So
3:02
Speaker 1: it was so swollen.
3:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, the swelling and at like you've sent us a
3:09
Speaker 2: couple of photos as you've been progressing through.
3:13
Speaker 1: This and dump dates. Yeah, wowsers. She was angry. Oh yeah,
3:19
Speaker 1: now she's all bruised. She's real purple all over my foot.
3:24
Speaker 1: But we're getting better. It's fine, It's fine, Okay, Okay,
3:28
Speaker 1: I'm not just jibber jabbering about what I've been up
3:30
Speaker 1: to lately, even though I like to talk about myself.
3:33
Speaker 1: I'm man who doesn't. But the Oregon Zoo is actually
3:37
Speaker 1: our topic for today.
3:39
Speaker 2: I knew it as soon as you brought up the
3:41
Speaker 2: baby elephant and You're like, I have to talk about
3:44
Speaker 2: this first.
3:45
Speaker 1: That was like the zoo is haunted, isn't it. I mean,
3:50
Speaker 1: we'll be the judge of that. You guys can be
3:52
Speaker 1: the judge of that after I tell you what's up
3:55
Speaker 1: with the zoo. So you might not think the zoo
3:58
Speaker 1: to be a very spooky place. I don't know, but
4:02
Speaker 1: I can pretty much find out creepy shit about anything.
4:05
Speaker 1: So here we go. Yeah, put your powers to good.
4:08
Speaker 1: Use my spooky powers. So, speaking of the elephants, in
4:14
Speaker 1: twenty thirteen, as construction had just gotten underway for the
4:17
Speaker 1: new elephant exhibit, they dug up a human skull.
4:22
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, what's this now?
4:26
Speaker 1: They dug up a human skull, and they immediately stopped
4:30
Speaker 1: and called an archaeologist, who proceeded to uncover the remains
4:35
Speaker 1: of nine people.
4:37
Speaker 2: Ah, that's too many.
4:40
Speaker 1: I didn't know this either when I did my research after,
4:43
Speaker 1: so I didn't know any of this going in, or
4:46
Speaker 1: I would have, you know, looked at the elephant exhibit
4:48
Speaker 1: a little bit differently, probably, I should say.
4:52
Speaker 3: So.
4:53
Speaker 1: They were found to be of Western European descent, So
4:56
Speaker 1: we're not talking about like a Native American beer, which
5:00
Speaker 1: everyone you know, like, yeah talk about.
5:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a bit of a trope in movies and whatnot,
5:07
Speaker 2: which is kind of sad.
5:09
Speaker 1: I know, but we're not going there today. Yeah, because boo.
5:14
Speaker 1: But this wasn't even the first time remains were found
5:17
Speaker 1: in the area, like at the zoo or just in
5:21
Speaker 1: like in the area like the Washington Park area.
5:24
Speaker 2: Okay, well that we know to be true.
5:28
Speaker 1: Well, okay, I'll tell you more about it. It's not
5:33
Speaker 1: like murderers or anything like that. But there are so
5:36
Speaker 1: who are these people? Who are these remains? While they
5:41
Speaker 1: have never been able to be identified, the history of
5:43
Speaker 1: the property is a huge clue as to who they
5:46
Speaker 1: are and why people would be buried there. In eighteen
5:50
Speaker 1: fifty four, Oregon law made local governments responsible for providing
5:54
Speaker 1: care and shelter for their poorest residents. They called them
5:58
Speaker 1: poor farms. Nice. I don't know that. I love that.
6:03
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be honest with you. It was a nice thought.
6:07
Speaker 2: It's not my favorite.
6:09
Speaker 1: The area that is now Washington Park, which is now
6:12
Speaker 1: home to the Oregon Zoo, the International Rose Test Garden,
6:16
Speaker 1: Japanese Garden, Waite Arboreta, the World Forestry Center, all that
6:21
Speaker 1: stuff is there. Lochi Da It was one hundred and
6:25
Speaker 1: sixty acre poor farm and sanatorium for the mentally ill
6:29
Speaker 1: in those with infectious diseases. Hillside Farm had hundreds of
6:34
Speaker 1: residents from eighteen sixty eight to nineteen eleven, and after
6:39
Speaker 1: which it was moved to Edgefield, Yeah, which is now
6:43
Speaker 1: a Mcminnimum's great And that was due to Portlander's concern
6:48
Speaker 1: about the city's image and reputation because they started to
6:51
Speaker 1: get bougie. But of course, well you know.
6:55
Speaker 2: What they did with all of those unwell people. They
6:59
Speaker 2: would have all of those polite euphemisms, you know, for
7:03
Speaker 2: all of those people, and then of course all of
7:05
Speaker 2: your histical women.
7:08
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, you got to hide them somewhere. Seriously, did
7:12
Speaker 1: get them out of town? Man, they can't be they
7:14
Speaker 1: can't be in Portland.
7:16
Speaker 2: No, hide them away from polite society.
7:20
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure they put a golf course in afterwards too,
7:23
Speaker 1: like before the zoo. So interesting, like let's replace the
7:27
Speaker 1: poor farm with a golf course like a country club.
7:31
Speaker 2: Seriously tell me that you're just gentrifying and being problematic
7:36
Speaker 2: without telling me.
7:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, the residents stayed there, getting food and medical care
7:42
Speaker 1: in exchange for labor on the farm, the hope being
7:45
Speaker 1: that they could learn to be self sufficient and eventually
7:48
Speaker 1: move up in society. Although life on the farm was
7:51
Speaker 1: far from perfect. As you can imagine, it was pretty
7:54
Speaker 1: similar to places like asylums with unsanitary living conditions and
8:00
Speaker 1: possibly questionable care.
8:02
Speaker 2: But yeah, who could have seen that coming.
8:06
Speaker 1: Yeah.
8:06
Speaker 2: Also, I will say I think that it's good for
8:10
Speaker 2: people to be given a sense of purpose, and I
8:14
Speaker 2: think sometimes there are ways that programs can be put
8:19
Speaker 2: in place so that they're not exploitative. But for people
8:25
Speaker 2: to have to work the farm, to live there, and
8:28
Speaker 2: to receive care, to me, I don't know. I have
8:32
Speaker 2: to imagine, given the time, it was probably on the
8:37
Speaker 2: side of being exploitative. I have a feeling that's what
8:41
Speaker 2: you're gonna tell me.
8:43
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't know much more information about it,
8:46
Speaker 1: to be honest, that's kind of all I know.
8:48
Speaker 2: Okay, so we'll just operate under my assumption. Then.
8:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, from what I read, it was like the thought
8:54
Speaker 1: was good. It was providing people place to live, work,
9:01
Speaker 1: and probably progressive for its time.
9:04
Speaker 2: But through a modern lens, it kind of gives maybe
9:07
Speaker 2: a little bit of ick.
9:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean they're not around anymore, so there's
9:12
Speaker 1: a reason for that. Yeah.
9:14
Speaker 2: Yeah.
9:14
Speaker 1: There were at least three cemeteries on the farm, but
9:17
Speaker 1: no records of who was laid to rest or where
9:20
Speaker 1: any of the burial plots were located. Oh good lord. Yeah,
9:25
Speaker 1: so I think pretty much the majority of the people
9:28
Speaker 1: buried there were people that were unclaimed by their family, right,
9:33
Speaker 1: probably most of the people that were living there. Yeah.
9:37
Speaker 2: Wow, I wonder why it would be haunted spoiler alert.
9:41
Speaker 1: I have no stories of actual hauntings. Wha. I know
9:46
Speaker 1: I kind of tricked you a little bit in the beginning.
9:49
Speaker 2: But honestly, I believe it and I know that, like,
9:52
Speaker 2: I have this information now, so maybe I'm viewing things
9:57
Speaker 2: like differently, but I don't know. I've always felt a
10:02
Speaker 2: little bit weird at the zoo ooh, and I don't
10:06
Speaker 2: who knows. Maybe that's there's any other reasons for that too.
10:10
Speaker 1: Oh cool, But I would be interested to know, like
10:13
Speaker 1: if anyone has had experiences at the zoo, if anyone
10:16
Speaker 1: who works there regularly has any you know, paranormal experiences.
10:22
Speaker 1: But I couldn't find any on the internet. That is wild.
10:26
Speaker 2: I'm gonna I'm gonna comb all of the resources and
10:30
Speaker 2: see if we can connect with somebody at the zoo.
10:33
Speaker 1: Tell us your stories, please, We want to know the
10:38
Speaker 1: uncovered remains were said to be buried in the same
10:41
Speaker 1: spot with a memorial to preserve the land's history. So
10:46
Speaker 1: they did dig them up and then they reburied them
10:49
Speaker 1: in the same area, So I guess they're still under
10:51
Speaker 1: the elephant. I don't know if they buried them like
10:55
Speaker 1: more off to the side of the elephant enclosure or
10:57
Speaker 1: actually where they found them. Okay, I wasn't able to
11:02
Speaker 1: dig up any information on that. I did.
11:06
Speaker 2: I see what you did there.
11:08
Speaker 1: I was really like searching like for the memorials to
11:11
Speaker 1: see if there is any plaques. And like I said,
11:13
Speaker 1: it was before or I did the research after I
11:16
Speaker 1: had gone to the zoo. So yeah, next time I
11:19
Speaker 1: go to the zoo, I can like kind of look
11:20
Speaker 1: around the elephant enclosure for a plaque and maybe ask
11:24
Speaker 1: one of the They always have volunteers around that know things. Yeah,
11:29
Speaker 1: I would be so curious.
11:31
Speaker 2: But again, just doing all of the things that I
11:34
Speaker 2: feel like it's like a recipe for haunting. Like by
11:38
Speaker 2: the book, they followed the measurements, they understood the assignment
11:43
Speaker 2: and all of the instructions, and it makes sense to me,
11:49
Speaker 2: or maybe they did.
11:50
Speaker 1: Just handle it really respectfully and the ghosts have no
11:56
Speaker 1: reason to hang around.
11:57
Speaker 2: I don't know, yeah, because that is so frequently I
12:02
Speaker 2: feel what we hear.
12:06
Speaker 1: Well. Heidi Ron, who was the director of the Better
12:09
Speaker 1: Zoo program at the time and was elected Zoo director
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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty one, she said, I think the most
12:16
Speaker 1: important thing for us was treating the remains with respect.
12:20
Speaker 2: I'm going to agree, Heidi, for the next decade. Actually, yeah,
12:25
Speaker 2: just consider it a standing nomination any office, the highest
12:31
Speaker 2: in the land, if you please.
12:34
Speaker 1: Right, Heidi, you want to run for press, let's go,
12:39
Speaker 1: just saying respect man. Respect. But there are a couple
12:45
Speaker 1: of more recent deaths that unfortunately took place at the
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Speaker 1: Oregon Zoo. Oh No, fourth of July nineteen seventy, which
12:55
Speaker 1: is more recent than I was early nineteen hundreds that
12:59
Speaker 1: we were just talking about.
13:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, hey, listen, you know what, I'm the one that's
13:04
Speaker 2: good with the dates. So I'm with you.
13:07
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you. So fourth of July nineteen seventy,
13:12
Speaker 1: Ken Bowers twenty one and Roger Adams nineteen, along with
13:16
Speaker 1: another friend, were out on the town doing what young
13:20
Speaker 1: men do on a summer holiday night, drinking and looking
13:23
Speaker 1: for shenanigans. Oh boy, some questionable choices were made. Okay,
13:30
Speaker 1: they broke into the zoo after hours, not off to
13:35
Speaker 1: a great start, but they didn't want to simply just
13:39
Speaker 1: look into the animal habitats. Oh no. Roger in particular
13:46
Speaker 1: wanted a thrill. Oh great, so he dangled himself into
13:51
Speaker 1: the grizzly bear enclosure. Oh my god, like just drunken dangling.
13:59
Speaker 1: I just don't do it. Don't dangle.
14:03
Speaker 2: I mean, Roger, Roger, if you're gonna dangle, like, maybe
14:08
Speaker 2: maybe we consider something like cute and fluffy, Like is
14:13
Speaker 2: there a chinchilla exhibit could perhaps.
14:16
Speaker 1: Go mingle with the penguins. I don't know.
14:21
Speaker 2: Perhaps those critters are more aggressive than I'm aware of,
14:24
Speaker 2: but I'm just saying they.
14:26
Speaker 1: Also hang out with the bats, to be honest with you.
14:29
Speaker 2: Now, see that's where you lose me, because yeah, just
14:34
Speaker 2: I don't know about that.
14:35
Speaker 1: The bats are my favorite. I love to go in
14:38
Speaker 1: there and just they stink, but oh my gosh, I
14:41
Speaker 1: just love them so much.
14:43
Speaker 2: Cool to watch, But I'm very afraid of Like, well,
14:48
Speaker 2: you know, we've all been programmed.
14:50
Speaker 1: We're supposed to be afraid of the bats, right, I don't.
14:54
Speaker 2: I'm not really afraid of them in that scenario, just
14:58
Speaker 2: because it's you know, it's an incline and I cannot and.
15:01
Speaker 1: You're not dangling it. Yeah.
15:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like that's really key, just in case
15:07
Speaker 2: anybody wanted us to really drive that home.
15:10
Speaker 1: Here we are dangling by it. Okay. So, after successfully
15:16
Speaker 1: pulling himself back up out of the grizzly bear enclosure, yay,
15:20
Speaker 1: what he decided to chase more adrenaline. He was not
15:26
Speaker 1: done for the night. For fuck's sake, he thought it
15:29
Speaker 1: was a lot more thrilling to dangle himself into the
15:35
Speaker 1: lion enclosure.
15:36
Speaker 2: Yep, of course he did. Of course he did. Roger,
15:39
Speaker 2: this is why we can't have nice things. Okay, yeah, yeah,
15:43
Speaker 2: Oh my god, okay, I already listen. Here's the thing.
15:47
Speaker 2: I already didn't let myself get emotionally attached to Roger
15:51
Speaker 2: because you said the thing about the grizzly bears.
15:54
Speaker 1: But like, oh god, you maybe you maybe shouldn't shouldn't
16:01
Speaker 1: get attached, Oh god. Yeah. Okay, So let's keep moving
16:07
Speaker 1: because this is kind of it gets kind of it
16:09
Speaker 1: gets kind of hard here, okay. Okay, So as you
16:13
Speaker 1: can maybe imagine dangling himself in front of the lions
16:17
Speaker 1: didn't go as planned. It was not like the grizzly bears.
16:22
Speaker 1: One of them started swatting at his feet, causing Roger
16:26
Speaker 1: to lose his grip and fall into the enclosure. Caesar
16:31
Speaker 1: and Siss. The lions did what wild animals do, and
16:36
Speaker 1: they attacked Roger.
16:38
Speaker 2: Okay, I really again cannot state this strongly enough. I
16:42
Speaker 2: don't love that for Roger. It sounds like a really
16:46
Speaker 2: bad time.
16:47
Speaker 1: It wasn't good. His friends watched in horror, and Bowers
16:52
Speaker 1: remembers hearing help me, Kinney. Oh I'm sure he was
16:57
Speaker 1: screaming it, but I yeah. They desperately tried to scare
17:02
Speaker 1: the lions away, but there was nothing they could do,
17:05
Speaker 1: and Roger bled out from his injuries. Fuck, that is horrific,
17:11
Speaker 1: I know. Wow, the tragedy didn't in there. An unknown
17:16
Speaker 1: gunman entered the zoo the next morning, fatally shooting both
17:20
Speaker 1: of the lions.
17:22
Speaker 2: Okay, well, hey, I don't care for that either. That's
17:27
Speaker 2: kind of a dick move. I know.
17:29
Speaker 1: Are in this they were saying they were twin lions.
17:35
Speaker 1: I don't know if they're actually no, because they were
17:36
Speaker 1: different ages. They were just calling them the twins.
17:39
Speaker 2: But they're like a bonded pair, which like kind of
17:43
Speaker 2: the same. They were twin flames, y'all in the animal world.
17:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, Roger's family was harassed by distraught animal lovers after that,
17:55
Speaker 1: saying that Roger deserved what happened to him. Okay, well
17:59
Speaker 1: that's pretty achy to say. I know, it's really gross.
18:03
Speaker 2: Some bad decisions were made, but nobody deserves that. Come on, yeah,
18:08
Speaker 2: why would you say that to his grieving family, even.
18:13
Speaker 1: Even if you're, oh, god, we're so gross. Roger's father's
18:20
Speaker 1: response was, I don't blame the lions, but what I
18:24
Speaker 1: don't understand is how some people can have so much
18:27
Speaker 1: compassion for animals and then turn right around and crucify
18:30
Speaker 1: human beings.
18:33
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm having a hard time coming up with
18:36
Speaker 2: truer words, my friend.
18:38
Speaker 1: I know. Oh, they were blaming Roger for like the
18:43
Speaker 1: lions getting shot. Some people actually thought the family did
18:46
Speaker 1: it had something to do with the shooting.
18:50
Speaker 2: See, And that's really unfair too, you know.
18:53
Speaker 1: I know, I feel like we just we come into
18:56
Speaker 1: that a lot with like any of the check crime stories,
18:59
Speaker 1: where the family just whether they had something to do
19:01
Speaker 1: with it or not, they get harassed and blamed.
19:04
Speaker 2: And oh yes, no, I mean there's people going after
19:09
Speaker 2: everybody involved in a case that receives like any amount
19:13
Speaker 2: of attention.
19:14
Speaker 1: It is.
19:16
Speaker 2: I feel like in a lot of my research, that's
19:20
Speaker 2: been one of the hardest things to learn and read
19:24
Speaker 2: about is how awful people can be in a situation
19:28
Speaker 2: that is just like, what are you doing? You're just
19:32
Speaker 2: like harassing these people and for what for what? Yeah,
19:38
Speaker 2: what's that going to get you? You're not going to
19:40
Speaker 2: get like, you're not going to arrest them. You can't
19:44
Speaker 2: be a witness and core like and and in a
19:48
Speaker 2: situation where they're just like truly innocent in the situation.
19:53
Speaker 2: But even if they weren't, like, there's just some things
19:56
Speaker 2: that like, I'm just humans are the most dangerous.
20:00
Speaker 1: Let's yeah, I forget these lions. Yeah full stop. Okay,
20:07
Speaker 1: So now I couldn't. I couldn't super confirm this. I
20:11
Speaker 1: found it in one article and then I like couldn't.
20:14
Speaker 1: There was not a lot of info about any of this,
20:16
Speaker 1: you guys, So I don't know, Caitlin, if you want
20:18
Speaker 1: to dig later be my guest. Oh boy, But about
20:23
Speaker 1: three years later, Ken Bowers apparently confessed to the shooting
20:27
Speaker 1: of the two lions and was fined twelve hundred dollars.
20:31
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I feel like maybe that kind of tracks.
20:36
Speaker 1: They did have quotes from him in this article, so
20:38
Speaker 1: I like kind of assume it's true.
20:41
Speaker 2: But I mean, it's either true or it's you know,
20:49
Speaker 2: a suable offense.
20:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, but they said so. They said he was caught
20:55
Speaker 1: on drug charges or something else. And then when he
20:59
Speaker 1: confessed to that, they they dropped the They didn't like
21:03
Speaker 1: charge him with the killing of the lions. They just
21:06
Speaker 1: find him for the price of the lions.
21:09
Speaker 2: Oh sure, okay.
21:12
Speaker 1: Tiger's earlier did I if I said at any point,
21:17
Speaker 1: don't I don't. I feel like I would have flagged that.
21:20
Speaker 2: Okay, I feel like I would have flagged that because
21:23
Speaker 2: whenever you say lion. So this is like kind of
21:26
Speaker 2: a fun thing. Is like a lot of words in
21:30
Speaker 2: my brain when I hear them, when I think them,
21:33
Speaker 2: when I say them, Like there's like mental pictures And
21:39
Speaker 2: I was listening to podcasts where they were talking about
21:42
Speaker 2: like there's somebody that was talking about their experience and
21:46
Speaker 2: I forget what the like.
21:48
Speaker 1: They call it a disorder.
21:51
Speaker 2: Where you can't visualize, like you can't like visualize you
21:55
Speaker 2: can't summon like visual images in your own mind. I'm
22:00
Speaker 2: very much the opposite. They come unbidden. And if you
22:04
Speaker 2: had said tiger, I think I would have been like,
22:07
Speaker 2: I'm picturing stripes now and now I'm confused.
22:11
Speaker 1: Right.
22:11
Speaker 2: Yeah. All of that is to say I think you
22:14
Speaker 2: nailing it.
22:15
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I hope. So wait, I'm gonna go like check
22:19
Speaker 1: my I'm like, wait, it was a lion, right, and
22:22
Speaker 1: not a tiger. Lions If they're a lions, yeah, I have.
22:32
Speaker 2: To read all again and say insert tiger, or I've
22:36
Speaker 2: to dub myself saying tiger tiger, yeah, which.
22:40
Speaker 1: Is kind of interesting. So when we went to the zoo,
22:44
Speaker 1: I went with a couple other people who just had
22:46
Speaker 1: to keep going, and I was with my mom, so
22:48
Speaker 1: we like hung out and sang Happy Birthday to the elephant.
22:51
Speaker 1: But so the other people I was with kept going
22:54
Speaker 1: and they went to the lion cage now, which it
22:57
Speaker 1: has a lot of glass, and they like yummy snacks.
23:01
Speaker 1: They like smeared it on the glass. So the lions
23:04
Speaker 1: were like licking and jumping. I should I should use
23:07
Speaker 1: one of those for the for a video for this
23:09
Speaker 1: like post. You could see like the size of the
23:13
Speaker 1: fucking pause or just in like imagine that whacking at
23:17
Speaker 1: you and like, yeah, smuling you to death. I mean, don't, no,
23:21
Speaker 1: I don't. I refuse.
23:23
Speaker 2: Actually, that just makes me think of the video of
23:28
Speaker 2: the Wiener dog that chased after lions.
23:32
Speaker 1: Is it real or is that AI?
23:35
Speaker 2: No?
23:35
Speaker 1: This is like it's a pretty old video.
23:37
Speaker 2: It was definitely before like AI was good enough to
23:42
Speaker 2: generate something like that for sure. Okay, So I mean,
23:46
Speaker 2: if it's fake, somebody spent like an inordinate amount of
23:51
Speaker 2: time and or money to produce that clip.
23:54
Speaker 1: So I trust no videos anymore. You're really can't. Okay,
24:05
Speaker 1: moving on, We're gonna go to a more really recent one.
24:10
Speaker 1: In twenty nineteen, Carl Stanley Ross Senior sixty two attended
24:16
Speaker 1: a summer concert at the Oregon Zoo George Clinton and
24:21
Speaker 1: Parliament Funkadelic. I don't know who either of those people are.
24:26
Speaker 2: Sorry, I'm not super familiar with their catalog either, but
24:32
Speaker 2: it sounds funkadelic.
24:35
Speaker 1: But p yeah, Parliament Funkadelic. I think they're two different.
24:38
Speaker 1: I think George Clinton is a person and then Parliament
24:41
Speaker 1: Funkadelic is like a band.
24:43
Speaker 2: Maybe yeah, it's giving funk adel yeah, if anyone knows
24:51
Speaker 2: who they are, let me know, because I didn't google it.
24:57
Speaker 1: A friend reported him missing to Zoosieecurity at the end
25:00
Speaker 1: of the night. Two days later, he was found deceased
25:04
Speaker 1: in the empty rhino exhibit. So there was no animals
25:09
Speaker 1: in it. It was under construction at the time. Interesting,
25:13
Speaker 1: So the rhinos didn't do it? Okay, you guys, yes,
25:16
Speaker 1: please leave.
25:17
Speaker 2: The rhinos alone.
25:20
Speaker 1: There's the horny. The Oregon Zoo said the construction site
25:25
Speaker 1: wasn't accessible, surrounded by fencing and pedestrian barriers. Well, they
25:30
Speaker 1: didn't know exactly what happened. Investigators didn't find any evidence
25:35
Speaker 1: of foul play. Interesting. Ross Seniors thought to have had
25:38
Speaker 1: some pre existing conditions, heart issues and early signs of dementia.
25:45
Speaker 2: Oh no, so he might have wandered.
25:49
Speaker 1: So those could have been a factor. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
25:54
Speaker 1: Ross Senior's family hired a private investigator and filed a
25:57
Speaker 1: lawsuit against the zoo. I mean they did not notify
26:01
Speaker 1: all staff or lock down the zoo to try to
26:03
Speaker 1: find the missing person.
26:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's pretty important.
26:08
Speaker 1: I guess there was no record of like the missing
26:12
Speaker 1: person's report to the zoo. There was only a record
26:16
Speaker 1: of his family calling the police the next morning and
26:19
Speaker 1: then they said there was no indication he was still
26:21
Speaker 1: going to be at the zoo, So I think there
26:24
Speaker 1: was just a lot of confusion unfortunately.
26:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's tough. I mean you're talking about an adult man.
26:32
Speaker 2: So I would assume that, like, depending on the person,
26:37
Speaker 2: maybe there are going to be some people that assume, like, oh,
26:41
Speaker 2: he just.
26:41
Speaker 1: Took off or whatever.
26:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, but like when he's not, nobody knows where he is,
26:47
Speaker 2: like the next morning, that's like missing person worthy in
26:53
Speaker 2: their eyes.
26:54
Speaker 1: I don't, you know, it's so hard to know.
26:57
Speaker 2: And you know, I don't know, that's tough because yeah,
27:00
Speaker 2: adults can, you know, they can come and go as
27:03
Speaker 2: they please. I would assume if they if the zoo
27:06
Speaker 2: had been made aware of a child that had been
27:09
Speaker 2: you know, somebody could not find their child, Yeah, they
27:14
Speaker 2: probably would have handled that a little bit differently, regardless
27:17
Speaker 2: of whether or not the parents had filed a missing
27:20
Speaker 2: persons report.
27:21
Speaker 1: But I mean.
27:24
Speaker 2: As a story asult's time, they always treat adults a
27:27
Speaker 2: little bit differently, and who knows. Like the friend, I
27:31
Speaker 2: have no idea how serious it sounded like. He could
27:35
Speaker 2: have just been like complaining like, hey, I can't find
27:39
Speaker 2: my friend, like you know what I mean. Yeah, maybe
27:41
Speaker 2: they just didn't think it was It's so hard to
27:44
Speaker 2: say without more details, it's hard to know, but I mean,
27:48
Speaker 2: the fact that they're filing a lawsuit tells me that,
27:51
Speaker 2: you know, there might be something there. Generally, it's hard
27:55
Speaker 2: to get a lawyer to take your case if it's
27:57
Speaker 2: completely baseless.
27:59
Speaker 1: They also accused them of not securing the construction area properly,
28:04
Speaker 1: even though the zoo said it was secure.
28:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's kind of the biggest concern because they're saying
28:10
Speaker 2: it's secure, and of course the construction site that like
28:14
Speaker 2: that can certainly be tricky. You know, I've visited a
28:18
Speaker 2: lot of job sites and that that can be tricky,
28:21
Speaker 2: especially in an environment like that was so many people.
28:25
Speaker 2: But clearly it wasn't as secure as they thought.
28:29
Speaker 1: The family kind of thought like, well, you should have
28:32
Speaker 1: security guards kind of like you know, around the border
28:36
Speaker 1: of the place if that many people are going to
28:38
Speaker 1: be there. They said it wasn't really accessible by the people.
28:43
Speaker 1: So he's somehow gotten though. So, yeah, clearly there was
28:47
Speaker 1: an inn.
28:48
Speaker 2: Given that it's an uninhabited enclosure under construction. I feel
28:55
Speaker 2: like it makes it pretty hard to say, oh, you
28:58
Speaker 2: should have security over there, because it's like, well, what
29:01
Speaker 2: are you other than just like somebody getting in there
29:05
Speaker 2: and maybe, you know, whatever dangers are inherent in that
29:10
Speaker 2: from the construction. You know, they're not going to be
29:14
Speaker 2: attacked by an animal because there are no animals, so that,
29:20
Speaker 2: I don't know. I have a hard time thinking that
29:22
Speaker 2: the zoo would be able to justify that it's expensive.
29:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they had security for the concert, so it's
29:29
Speaker 1: not like they're a security list right right exactly, Like
29:34
Speaker 1: what else are you supposed to do? I don't I
29:36
Speaker 1: don't know unless something was like left open or you know,
29:40
Speaker 1: but there was no cameras in the area.
29:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, having a dedicated team for an uninhabited enclosure feels
29:48
Speaker 2: like that might be a big ask.
29:51
Speaker 1: Like the fencing, the barriers, the signage should be enough. Yeah.
29:57
Speaker 1: The zoo says, our hearts go out to the family
30:00
Speaker 1: and loved ones of Carl Ross Senior. They have experienced
30:03
Speaker 1: a tremendous loss and it is understandable that they want
30:06
Speaker 1: to know what happened. We are continuing to look for
30:09
Speaker 1: answers as well. So I mean, I'm sure they didn't.
30:12
Speaker 1: They didn't love this, you know, like this sucks, not
30:17
Speaker 1: just that they're getting sued, like right, I don't know.
30:20
Speaker 1: I think they really do feel for the family.
30:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's tough. I'm sure they're not happy
30:28
Speaker 2: about it for a lot of reasons. It's that's that's rough.
30:32
Speaker 1: Zoo attorneys argued that Ross Senior died from alcoholism, which
30:37
Speaker 1: caused a fall. Okay, the court actually found the Zoo
30:41
Speaker 1: to be thirty seven point five percent at fault and
30:46
Speaker 1: Ross Senior sixty two point five percent at fault, which
30:50
Speaker 1: I didn't know that they did that kind of percentage
30:53
Speaker 1: thing in the courts.
30:55
Speaker 2: Yes, like in a criminal case, that's not really how
30:59
Speaker 2: it works.
31:00
Speaker 1: But in a civil case like this where there's the.
31:02
Speaker 2: Potential for a payout, yes, you will see sometimes and
31:07
Speaker 2: it happens a lot like in auto accidents specifically.
31:11
Speaker 1: Oh that makes sense. Yeah, I thought that was like
31:15
Speaker 1: really interesting, like very specific thirty seven point five yeah, crazy, it's.
31:22
Speaker 2: Really interesting too. There are states and I can't remember
31:27
Speaker 2: if it's North Carolina or South Carolina, but they have
31:31
Speaker 2: very specific rules about like the findings regarding percentage of fault,
31:38
Speaker 2: and it's their laws make it really really difficult for
31:43
Speaker 2: anyone seeking damages from like a personal injury or so.
31:51
Speaker 1: I actually just I came across.
31:55
Speaker 2: I can't I think it was an article. It might
31:58
Speaker 2: have been a podcast. I listened, who knows, I absorbed
32:02
Speaker 2: like these random factoids, but yeah, it was. It was
32:06
Speaker 2: really interesting to hear them talk to people that like
32:09
Speaker 2: have sustained really serious injuries and because like the percentage
32:15
Speaker 2: of fault isn't like majority.
32:19
Speaker 1: One way or the other.
32:20
Speaker 2: It's like, oh, yeah, I don't know, it's it was.
32:24
Speaker 2: It was hard to listen to because people that like
32:26
Speaker 2: they're truly like their mobility, their livelihood, everything is impacted.
32:31
Speaker 2: And like the way that their state's laws like work,
32:36
Speaker 2: it just makes it next to impossible for you to
32:39
Speaker 2: like get anything for pain and suffering. It's, yeah, be
32:46
Speaker 2: thankful that hopefully most I think they said the vast
32:50
Speaker 2: majority of states don't work that way. But we're looking
32:54
Speaker 2: at you. One of the Carolinas bombastics.
33:00
Speaker 1: I die. So they did rule that both parties negligence
33:05
Speaker 1: contributed to his death, but there was no payout because
33:10
Speaker 1: his percentage of fault was higher. Yeah. Carl Ross Junior says,
33:18
Speaker 1: my father was a kind and giving man who always
33:21
Speaker 1: put family and others first. That's so hard, I know.
33:28
Speaker 1: I mean, like it was just an accident. Like, yeah,
33:33
Speaker 1: that's so hard. I mean.
33:36
Speaker 2: And that's the thing about our legal system is that
33:39
Speaker 2: so often some of these things just boiled down to
33:42
Speaker 2: like there's not going to be a satisfying conclusion or
33:49
Speaker 2: you know, like there is no justice in that situation, right,
33:54
Speaker 2: because it's like, what do you even do? Like it's just,
33:57
Speaker 2: like you said, it's an awful accident. I feel really
34:01
Speaker 2: bad for his family.
34:03
Speaker 1: I know I do too, And the same with Roger too.
34:07
Speaker 1: I mean, he was a nineteen year old kid. I
34:10
Speaker 1: know he dangled himself in the I think he was
34:13
Speaker 1: probably one hundred percent of fault for that, for breaking
34:16
Speaker 1: into the zoo. And yeah, but that doesn't make it
34:19
Speaker 1: any less sad, And that doesn't mean that he deserved
34:23
Speaker 1: to die.
34:24
Speaker 2: No, and who has not fallen prey to the folly
34:30
Speaker 2: of youth, you know.
34:31
Speaker 1: Curiously, boys, boys will be boys?
34:35
Speaker 2: Oh my god, that was like peak boys will be
34:38
Speaker 2: boys era too. I feel like, but I think you know,
34:43
Speaker 2: some of that regardless of gender or anything like any
34:46
Speaker 2: of the other factors.
34:47
Speaker 1: It's like it's just youth.
34:50
Speaker 2: I mean, that's I cannot picture myself doing that personally.
34:55
Speaker 2: Can I picture probably multiple people that I know personally
35:01
Speaker 2: having done that at some point given the right combination
35:04
Speaker 2: of youth and liquid courage? Maybe?
35:08
Speaker 1: Yikes?
35:10
Speaker 2: I mean you hate to think about that happening to anyone, though.
35:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, but people do all kinds of freaking things for
35:19
Speaker 1: you know, adrenaline rush, like.
35:20
Speaker 2: Shits and giggles, and it's only gotten worse with social media.
35:24
Speaker 2: I feel like, can you imagine if his like friends
35:28
Speaker 2: had been live streaming that?
35:31
Speaker 1: Dude?
35:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, devastating. It's horrific enough, but that's crazy. I know,
35:40
Speaker 2: it's wild to think about, Like so many things that
35:43
Speaker 2: like have happened in the past. You're like, what would
35:45
Speaker 2: this have been like in the era of social media?
35:50
Speaker 1: Truly nightmare fuel? Yeah, okay, on no one, I'm saying
35:56
Speaker 1: this right now though, No one go do that and
35:58
Speaker 1: live stream please God. No, for the love of the lions, yes,
36:04
Speaker 1: don't do it, for the love of all things holy. Well,
36:13
Speaker 1: that's my story about the zoo. Like I said, I
36:15
Speaker 1: didn't find any like personal Reddit stories from hauntings at
36:21
Speaker 1: the zoo. I don't know.
36:23
Speaker 2: Maybe I'm struggling to wrap my head around that property
36:27
Speaker 2: not being haunted, and maybe maybe everybody else is just
36:31
Speaker 2: so overstimulated when they visit the zoo.
36:35
Speaker 1: Maybe there is. I mean I would expect it to
36:40
Speaker 1: be from like people who are there after hours, like
36:44
Speaker 1: yeahs or keepers or yes, yeah, definitely like the staff.
36:49
Speaker 2: I feel like that's your best shot for really getting
36:53
Speaker 2: some good stories about hauntings.
36:58
Speaker 1: And like a lot of people, people don't talk about
37:01
Speaker 1: their paranormal experiences, and the most that we when we
37:05
Speaker 1: hear them, while we're hearing about things that are like
37:07
Speaker 1: obviously going to be haunted, like spooky old places and
37:11
Speaker 1: things like that, like the zoo, isn't really something you'd
37:13
Speaker 1: think about, No, not at all when you think about haunting.
37:17
Speaker 1: So I think it's going to be pretty rare to
37:20
Speaker 1: find people actually talking about it unless they email us
37:23
Speaker 1: Pinabe hoatsa Homicides at gmail dot com. Please do it.
37:29
Speaker 2: I don't care if there are no stories that we
37:31
Speaker 2: could find online. That is a lot of spooky dissw.
37:37
Speaker 1: I brought my mushroom Oracle deck today because I was like, well,
37:41
Speaker 1: I don't have like a zoo themed deck.
37:44
Speaker 2: Oh, I wonder if there's a zoo that has its
37:48
Speaker 2: own tarot deck.
37:51
Speaker 1: They definitely have like decks of cards. Yeah, I should
37:55
Speaker 1: have bought one, but that's my next mission. But I figured,
37:59
Speaker 1: you know, mushrooms digging up stuff kind of fit. I
38:03
Speaker 1: feel like that.
38:04
Speaker 2: Really, I'm into it.
38:06
Speaker 1: It tracks for me personally. Okay, So I've been sitting
38:12
Speaker 1: here shuffling thinking about all of the things I talked about.
38:18
Speaker 1: Are you gonna send me some energy as I'm choosing
38:22
Speaker 1: a cod Oh, I'm showing the camera, but we're not
38:27
Speaker 1: doing videos, so you don't need to see. It's fine. Yeah,
38:30
Speaker 1: so suck it. Okay, I'm closing my eyes. I'm digging
38:36
Speaker 1: through the deck. Ooh, we got shaggy ink cap.
38:42
Speaker 2: Oh Shaggy like a lion kind of Okay, yeah, I
38:49
Speaker 2: would say it doesn't look like a lion, but Shaggy
38:53
Speaker 2: makes me think of a lion.
38:54
Speaker 1: I don't know, yeah it does. And it says growth
38:58
Speaker 1: slash destruction cycle, which is oh kind of interesting because
39:04
Speaker 1: there was kind of some self destructive behaviors and well.
39:09
Speaker 2: And then the story like involves death construction. It's I
39:14
Speaker 2: feel like all of these different like parts of like
39:17
Speaker 2: the different life cycles of a of a place and
39:21
Speaker 2: of people.
39:22
Speaker 1: Growth is interesting too, because that that was kind of
39:25
Speaker 1: the whole point of the poor farm, which I hate
39:29
Speaker 1: calling it that, but yeah, I guess they were called
39:32
Speaker 1: country farms to or something maybe a little nicer, but
39:35
Speaker 1: like that doesn't really describe what it is.
39:37
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think that like growth makes me think
39:42
Speaker 2: of bbe elephant tellto.
39:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I got the day I was possibly going
39:50
Speaker 1: to go into you know, they had the baby elephant
39:52
Speaker 1: Lily pass away, I know, and that was very very sad.
39:57
Speaker 1: I was saved gonna kind of talk about that, but
40:00
Speaker 1: I figured it, I don't know, it might just bring
40:03
Speaker 1: down the house a little bit, but a little bit. Yeah.
40:06
Speaker 1: I finally Mom did tell me that they found a
40:09
Speaker 1: cure for the virus that she died of no way
40:14
Speaker 1: sent her body in and they were able to find
40:16
Speaker 1: a cure from that. Oh yeah, so now if it happens,
40:21
Speaker 1: you know, to any other elephants anywhere they have, they
40:25
Speaker 1: can cure it now, which is great.
40:27
Speaker 2: That's amazing. I know, that is literally the card right there.
40:34
Speaker 1: Yeah.
40:35
Speaker 2: Oh, destruction and yet also growth and people were just
40:42
Speaker 2: like so rude. There was like people protesting after she
40:47
Speaker 2: passed away, saying that animal, like because she was in captivity,
40:53
Speaker 2: that's why she died.
40:54
Speaker 1: And like the the elephants have it out in nature too,
41:00
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, they just can't track it as well,
41:03
Speaker 1: so they right, how are they going to know how
41:06
Speaker 1: many cases are there are?
41:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I know I can understand that people have,
41:13
Speaker 2: you know, different they have differing opinions about the ethics
41:17
Speaker 2: of domesticated animals. But my gosh, but I feel like
41:24
Speaker 2: you're losing, Like you can't see the forest for the
41:26
Speaker 2: trees because like the real tragedy there is just that
41:30
Speaker 2: the baby elephant died and it doesn't seem like it was.
41:35
Speaker 1: You know, at the fault of the zoo. So no,
41:39
Speaker 1: it just happened. But I mean, I hate to say
41:42
Speaker 1: everything happens for a reason, but.
41:46
Speaker 2: To be able to literally point to her case like
41:51
Speaker 2: her death being sort of the genesis or whatever you
41:54
Speaker 2: want to call it, the catalyst for finding a cure,
41:59
Speaker 2: I mean, shit, everything happens for a reason feels kind
42:05
Speaker 2: of appropriate there.
42:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean my mom told me that, So
42:10
Speaker 1: I don't know, Mom, if you're info is wrong, I'm
42:13
Speaker 1: saying it on my podcast.
42:14
Speaker 2: So we are throwing you right under the bus.
42:18
Speaker 1: Mom told me no, I believe my mom. She's gonna,
42:21
Speaker 1: I swear, when she retires she's gonna volunteer at the
42:23
Speaker 1: zoo because she just like she knows everything about everything
42:27
Speaker 1: at the zoo.
42:28
Speaker 2: I love that. What a fun thing to do though.
42:32
Speaker 2: I feel like volunteering at the zoo would.
42:34
Speaker 1: Be really cool. Yeah, I know, I love it.
42:38
Speaker 2: I feel like she's got her fact straight. I mean
42:40
Speaker 2: she she's like stalks the zoo. She reads all the things. Yeah,
42:45
Speaker 2: I don't think she's about naughing correct information.
42:49
Speaker 1: I am a staunch Stephanie defender. Yeah. Anyway, Okay, enough
42:54
Speaker 1: about my mom. Okay, so this is the copreteness com mactis.
43:01
Speaker 1: That's the scientific name. They're edible when young, white and fresh.
43:08
Speaker 1: Oh so don't eat it when they start to get
43:11
Speaker 1: black and goofy like the picture.
43:12
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, that doesn't really look appetizing, to be honest.
43:17
Speaker 1: The shaggy ink cap can be found in the grasslands
43:21
Speaker 1: and open woodlands and has various stages of growth. Initially,
43:25
Speaker 1: it begins as a white egg shape, growing into a
43:28
Speaker 1: long bell. The pale brown area at the top breaks
43:34
Speaker 1: into large scales, and in dry weather the whole cap
43:37
Speaker 1: will do this. Uh, the gills start off white and
43:41
Speaker 1: turn pink and then black. The shaggy ink cap will
43:45
Speaker 1: then disdi delic delic. What the fuck is this word?
43:51
Speaker 1: Del deliquis it is? It's deliquest. That's how you say it.
43:57
Speaker 1: That is liquefy or self decomposed. That's yeah, in the
44:01
Speaker 1: in the actual interpretation here, I love it from the
44:07
Speaker 1: from the bottom outside edge and work its way upward,
44:11
Speaker 1: so it just starts to like liquefy. Oh, I see,
44:15
Speaker 1: like like it's like the cat that's showing the cat. Yeah,
44:18
Speaker 1: if you guys want to see the picture, go to
44:20
Speaker 1: our instagram.
44:21
Speaker 2: She's not the partiest mushroom of ever signed within a
44:25
Speaker 2: few hours just to stem with a small disc will remain.
44:29
Speaker 2: Oh that's kind of creepy because it's like that's so
44:33
Speaker 2: fast and both of the I didn't really say it
44:36
Speaker 2: with with Ross Senior, but like he was found in
44:40
Speaker 2: a pool of blood.
44:41
Speaker 1: It's like both of these people kind of like bled out. Yeah,
44:46
Speaker 1: that's really interesting. Wow. The stem is hollow, and the
44:50
Speaker 1: stem ring will eventually become movable, often falling to the ground.
44:56
Speaker 1: Oh okay, going to the ground, which U again, both
45:00
Speaker 1: of them.
45:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, feels like it could be very applicable.
45:04
Speaker 1: In both cases.
45:06
Speaker 2: Holy shit, Wow, that feels dead on a little too
45:12
Speaker 2: on the nose with that one.
45:14
Speaker 1: Yeah. The shaggy incap is also a bioaccumulator of heavy metals,
45:22
Speaker 1: meaning it can clean up the soil and restore its
45:25
Speaker 1: pH by drawing the heavy metals up into its fruiting bote.
45:30
Speaker 1: That's amazing. That is pretty cool.
45:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like how you know trees are so important
45:37
Speaker 2: to our environment because of how they like clean the air,
45:43
Speaker 2: which is exactly how it was explained to me as
45:47
Speaker 2: a child, and my depth of understanding has not greatly
45:52
Speaker 2: increased from that point forward. But that idea true's fact. Yeah,
45:59
Speaker 2: it's fine sciencing.
46:01
Speaker 1: Trees clean the air, mushrooms clean the dirt. Done science. Okay,
46:08
Speaker 1: you ready for the actual card, meaning now give it
46:11
Speaker 1: to me. Each stage of your growth has different meanings
46:15
Speaker 1: and properties, just like the saggy Just like the shaggy
46:18
Speaker 1: ink cap, it's not saggy. Well, just like the shaggy
46:24
Speaker 1: ink cap, you go through many stages over and over again.
46:28
Speaker 1: Just like the Earth has its seasons, Every cycle has
46:32
Speaker 1: a purpose and needs to be worked with, not against.
46:35
Speaker 1: Ah kind of reminds me how like the land can
46:38
Speaker 1: go through different stages of yes, being different things.
46:44
Speaker 2: I think of how like managing land in a modern
46:50
Speaker 2: but also like an ethical and natural way like we do,
46:54
Speaker 2: like controlled burns and things that like would occur in nature,
47:00
Speaker 2: they're naturally occurring, you know, kind of for lack of
47:05
Speaker 2: a better term, like incidents, but things that help to
47:10
Speaker 2: kind of develop and manage the environment in a way.
47:16
Speaker 2: That's what I don't know, that's just what it made
47:18
Speaker 2: me think of.
47:20
Speaker 1: Makes me think of two like them digging up the
47:22
Speaker 1: bones and then reburying them in the same spot to
47:25
Speaker 1: kind of like preserve the history the growth of the land.
47:30
Speaker 1: I don't know, work with it, not against it. Yes, Yeah,
47:35
Speaker 1: At what stage of your evolutionary growth are you can
47:38
Speaker 1: you recognize if it's growth or destructive cycle? The shaggy
47:42
Speaker 1: INCCAP has both, and both are necessary. When you look
47:46
Speaker 1: at the destructive cycle within yourself, do you try to
47:49
Speaker 1: push it away because you think it's bad? Only if
47:52
Speaker 1: you're trying to jump dangle into lion pins?
47:56
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like self destructive tendencies can be bad.
48:02
Speaker 2: I don't think that's a particularly hot take, but you know,
48:07
Speaker 2: leaning in.
48:08
Speaker 1: It's saying look at yourself and feet like is evaluate
48:13
Speaker 1: showing is bad a bad thing? Or you just learning
48:15
Speaker 1: and growing? Yeah, do you try to learn from it
48:19
Speaker 1: because it is a necessary part of growing up or
48:22
Speaker 1: learning a lesson. Not everything is bad when it is destructive,
48:26
Speaker 1: and not everything that is growth is a good thing.
48:29
Speaker 1: It's very true. I feel like this is very like
48:33
Speaker 1: some sort of riddle. Well, no, it is like riddle,
48:38
Speaker 1: it is.
48:38
Speaker 2: But if you think about it, like there's a reason,
48:41
Speaker 2: like there's so many things that occur, like in different
48:46
Speaker 2: applications in life, right, but like the economy can't just
48:50
Speaker 2: go up, up, up, up, up and up forever. Right,
48:54
Speaker 2: that's not how it has historically worked.
48:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, be great.
49:00
Speaker 2: But also like same thing with like population, and you
49:03
Speaker 2: see it in like wildlife populations where you know, as
49:08
Speaker 2: predators are eliminated, then they have to do certain things
49:12
Speaker 2: to manage like wild deer populations.
49:15
Speaker 1: Things like that.
49:18
Speaker 2: Of a lot of complicated feelings about managing wildlife populations.
49:23
Speaker 2: But yeah, I hope that in most of those instances,
49:30
Speaker 2: people wiser and uh hopefully with a nearly equal level
49:36
Speaker 2: of empathy are managing that process in respect.
49:42
Speaker 1: Yes, when something grows or is destroyed, it must be
49:46
Speaker 1: a sustainable process or there is no balance. What can
49:50
Speaker 1: you keep in check before it grows out of control?
49:54
Speaker 1: The key here is about finding balance within both the
49:57
Speaker 1: destructive and growth cycles. Remember that not everything destructive is
50:01
Speaker 1: bad and not everything that grows as good, and vice versa.
50:05
Speaker 1: Already said that. I'm not sure what's saying it again,
50:07
Speaker 1: but here we are. Yeah, everything has its place and purpose.
50:11
Speaker 1: Our job is to learn and grow from everything and
50:13
Speaker 1: everyone in our lives. What can you learn from this experience?
50:18
Speaker 1: A special card, indeed, with many questions to ponder.
50:23
Speaker 2: Truly though, and you know what, generally I am not
50:28
Speaker 2: big on things that just get reworded, you know, when
50:33
Speaker 2: you take the word salad and you just spin the
50:35
Speaker 2: bowl around. But I think some things bear repeating.
50:41
Speaker 1: It was really trying to drive it home there that
50:43
Speaker 1: I think. So our job is to learn and grow
50:46
Speaker 1: from everything and everyone in our lives. I feel like
50:49
Speaker 1: that totally fits the theme of all of this. Really,
50:52
Speaker 1: learn and grow.
50:54
Speaker 3: Learn.
50:54
Speaker 1: You know, maybe you need more security or borders or
50:59
Speaker 1: tighter locks on your construction areas or yeah.
51:04
Speaker 2: It's hard because looking at this, you know, without you
51:08
Speaker 2: know We certainly don't have insider knowledge of any of
51:11
Speaker 2: these cases that you know, we sort of talked about
51:15
Speaker 2: in connection with the zoo. But it's hard to feel
51:18
Speaker 2: like you really know what is the lesson and you
51:22
Speaker 2: can kind of guess at you know what, maybe you're
51:25
Speaker 2: the takeaways, and I guess for each person, like the
51:30
Speaker 2: takeaway really could just be something so different. But that
51:33
Speaker 2: I feel like that's the whole point though, right, Yeah,
51:38
Speaker 2: But I think the important I mean the fact that
51:41
Speaker 2: it really is just driving home that you know, keep
51:44
Speaker 2: learning and developing and questioning even you know yourself to
51:49
Speaker 2: a degree, you know, why are these the choices that
51:53
Speaker 2: I'm making?
51:54
Speaker 1: Maybe that's a fair question too, and question I mean
51:58
Speaker 1: the family hired private investigator just because they didn't. Yeah,
52:03
Speaker 1: they wanted to, they wanted want to. I don't think
52:06
Speaker 1: they quite trusted they quite trusted who was investigating it
52:12
Speaker 1: or the word of the zoo. I think it's totally
52:14
Speaker 1: fair that they file a lawsuit against them.
52:18
Speaker 2: Absolutely absolutely, And unfortunately sometimes I think that that can
52:25
Speaker 2: be the only manner of recourse, especially in a situation
52:30
Speaker 2: where like, you know, really their their aim may not
52:34
Speaker 2: have been like, oh great, We're just going to get
52:36
Speaker 2: this big payout. It really may have been more about
52:40
Speaker 2: wanting answers, and sometimes the only way to do that
52:44
Speaker 2: is to kind of pursue some sort of legal action.
52:48
Speaker 1: Not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, but I.
52:53
Speaker 2: Will say it's not the only case, you know that
52:56
Speaker 2: I've seen like this where you know, the family really
53:00
Speaker 2: asked to be proactive in how they you know, kind
53:04
Speaker 2: of pursue answers, and you know, the action that they
53:08
Speaker 2: take to you know, to get there hopefully they have
53:13
Speaker 2: you know, something resembling closure.
53:16
Speaker 1: Now, it's so hard. I didn't really I don't think
53:21
Speaker 1: I mentioned it either. But he was a black man,
53:24
Speaker 1: so I mean, I'm a I'm sure that could have
53:26
Speaker 1: been a factor in maybe people not taking it as seriously.
53:31
Speaker 1: I mean, we've this was pre bad Black Lives Matter,
53:35
Speaker 1: but yeah, it clearly it had been going on for
53:39
Speaker 1: years and years and years before all the protests and things,
53:42
Speaker 1: so right, I mean, I feel like they were just
53:44
Speaker 1: kind of maybe trying to stick up for him, and
53:49
Speaker 1: he should have been looked for.
53:51
Speaker 2: I can just understand given that additional context, how the
53:56
Speaker 2: family might not immediately be will to trust the official
54:01
Speaker 2: narrative without kind of you know, it's maybe it's you know,
54:07
Speaker 2: trust cautiously but verify.
54:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's fair.
54:13
Speaker 2: It's funny that you bring that up, though.
54:17
Speaker 1: I know what you've gotten in the works a little bit. Yeah,
54:20
Speaker 1: not like ha ha funny.
54:22
Speaker 2: But yeah, there's just so little haha funny these days.
54:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, everyone just sing happy Birthday to an elephant and
54:33
Speaker 1: feel better.
54:33
Speaker 2: Okay, oh my god, I know enough.
54:37
Speaker 1: Well that's all I got. Okay, I know. It wasn't
54:41
Speaker 1: too spooky.
54:42
Speaker 2: No, I didn't even put my feet up.
54:46
Speaker 1: Kind of sad. It's not what I was expecting when
54:48
Speaker 1: I went into this, Like I was not expecting especially
54:52
Speaker 1: the twenty nineteen, yes one, Like I was not expecting
54:57
Speaker 1: that at all because it's so recent.
54:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's pretty mind blowing.
55:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, And like I was just overlooking, like at the
55:05
Speaker 1: Rhino enclosure, you know, like so now next time I
55:08
Speaker 1: go there, I'm just gonna like think about him.
55:10
Speaker 2: And yeah, there are just so many spaces that we
55:15
Speaker 2: don't even realize and we visit and we interact, you know,
55:19
Speaker 2: with or in and it's so interesting to learn more
55:27
Speaker 2: and just kind of find this totally like unexpected level
55:32
Speaker 2: of like reverence for you know, these these events, it's
55:37
Speaker 2: like it's all part of human history.
55:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, kind of like you were saying with the last one,
55:43
Speaker 1: the the parking lot of the country club, Like you
55:47
Speaker 1: were saying, how it was cool that you went there,
55:50
Speaker 1: but not not like cool but.
55:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it just yeah, it definitely gives you a
55:56
Speaker 2: different perspective because there are just so many places that
56:00
Speaker 2: you can visit without a thought and you know, sure
56:04
Speaker 2: it's not something I witnessed or something that happened even
56:07
Speaker 2: in my lifetime, but you know, to think about like
56:11
Speaker 2: that's part of it's just part of the historical makeup
56:16
Speaker 2: of the city.
56:18
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it would be interested to know to where
56:21
Speaker 1: the Lion enclosure used to be, because I don't think
56:23
Speaker 1: it's it's not the same enclosure. Yeah, I don't think.
56:29
Speaker 2: I you know, I don't know that much about the zoo.
56:33
Speaker 2: I think probably you'd have to ask your resident expert.
56:37
Speaker 1: It's got to be different because like the seventies zoo
56:40
Speaker 1: was not the same, you know, like they've expanded and
56:44
Speaker 1: upgraded things oh so much.
56:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, that would be interesting to know. Okay, Zoo,
56:53
Speaker 2: contact us, we need to talk to you.
56:54
Speaker 1: We used to be have so many questions, Well, should
56:58
Speaker 1: we yeah, they so long. Farewell to the people.
57:03
Speaker 3: I've literally good night because we're going about after this.
57:10
Speaker 3: Have a creepy asday. We'll see you next Thursday.
57:15
Speaker 2: Bye.
57:17
Speaker 1: Don't fucking dangle, Okay, never dangle. No, we're dangling anything here.
57:24
Speaker 1: Do you hear us men? Stop dangling, Lieutenant dangle. Oh,
57:31
Speaker 1: my gord, don't be on the side of buildings. It's rude. Oh,
57:36
Speaker 1: that's super rude. You know who you are. You're definitely
57:41
Speaker 1: not listening. Dangling motherfucker.
57:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, speaking of dangling,