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Surviving Sexual and Physical Abuse - Murder of Abuser - The David Garlock Story · Nightmare Success In and Out

0:00
What happens when your worst fear becomes your reality?
0:03
Hi, I'm Brent Cassidy, welcome to the Nightmare Success In and
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Out podcast where we explore how to overcome your fears and
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nightmares to set yourself free. We're going to be exploring this
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topic with guys that was in Leavenworth with and others who
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survived their own nightmare. These stories can be inspiring,
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sometimes sad. There's some humor, but
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hopefully you can come away with a nugget of something that'll
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help you knock down some of the prisons you built up in your own
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mind. All right, welcome back nine
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verse success In-n-out listeners.
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This is where you come from. What happens when your worst
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year becomes your reality? How do you adapt, survive,
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It helps the show. OK folks, I have a story that I
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was just telling my guests that I've done I think 142 of these
0:57
interviews. But this is one subject that I
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haven't covered. And it's a dark subject, but it
1:03
has a successful ending. And that's why I'm, I'm so
1:06
intrigued with this subject matter.
1:09
But it involves sexual abuse, it involves physical abuse.
1:13
It it involves someone taking the abusers life.
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And just to tell you a little bit about David Garlock, who is
1:23
my guest, He, you know, childhood wasn't easy.
1:28
His brother and him were were they were raised in a
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dysfunctional home. His parents got a divorce, had
1:34
custody issues with both parents.
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There were multiple actions that put them in contact with a man
1:40
who began to sexually abuse both children.
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And at 11 years old, David says he lost his innocence and and,
1:48
and who he really was. He had to create mass so no one
1:51
could know what was really happening to him.
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The brothers suffered in silence until the fateful night they
1:57
decided to take matters into their own hands.
2:00
The sexual abuse turned into physical, severe physical abuse.
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This man used to beat the crap out of him daily and that's when
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they decided that they were going to take matters into their
2:12
own hands. The two brothers and at the age
2:14
of 20, David was arrested and sentenced to 25 years in prison.
2:20
He ended up serving 13 years of that prison sentence.
2:24
And you know what he's doing now it's it's inspiring just to take
2:28
you know what he's how he's been able to live through that go
2:32
through the prison process. He's a, he's a huge advocate for
2:36
anything around re entry, prison education, prison conditions.
2:41
He's, he's taken upon himself to try to educate the next
2:45
generation of criminal justice professionals.
2:48
He speaks at numerous colleges and universities.
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He's on a lot of national boards dedicated to criminal justice
2:57
reform. And he's really just taken his
3:00
whole experience and used it in a way that is helping others.
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And I'm always inspired by that. That's it's, it's an inspiring
3:07
thing when someone can take their worst moments and, and
3:11
then take those moments forward and help other people.
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Tell them Brent from Nightmare Success sent you.
3:56
David welcome in. How are you doing?
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I'm doing well, thank you for having me.
4:02
I I'm definitely glad that we were able to connect on LinkedIn
4:06
and then been able to chat some before this conversation.
4:10
I always wish we would just record the stuff we had right
4:12
before the the we hit the play button because it's always
4:16
interesting. And yeah, and David, I got AII
4:21
so much appreciate the last time that we were we were scheduled,
4:25
I had a mishap with my equipment and it was way above my pay
4:30
grade. So I had to get my guy in here
4:33
to help me and we rescheduled. So I appreciate you doing that.
4:36
So we finally got, you know, connected up.
4:40
So David, your story, like I said, it is not one that is.
4:48
And I think the other thing about it is I say it's not one
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that we've covered on this show. It's not one that people talk
4:53
about a lot in society for all kinds of reasons.
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And people suffer in silence. And I think it's people like you
5:02
that really stand out in front of it to give people a voice
5:08
that are suffering in silence so that they can feel like they're
5:11
not alone, they're not isolated. But can you take us back?
5:15
I I, you know, I just gave a little piece of you growing up,
5:18
but take us back into your world as a kid growing up and what
5:21
that was like for you. Yeah.
5:24
I mean, like you said, I mean, it was really about so much
5:28
dysfunction. If you know anything about this
5:32
test called ACES, which is adverse childhood experiences,
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it's 10 different questions. Five questions are about the
5:39
individual themselves under the age of 18, and five are about
5:44
their conditions, their family conditions.
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Typically if you score four more on that, the likelihood of
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medical conditions, addictions, incarceration go up.
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My brother and I scored 10 out of 10 on that.
5:58
This is definitely one of those tests you do not want to score
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100% on. You actually.
6:03
Want to fail? You want to bomb it?
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You know like 0 is like what you really want?
6:10
How old? Were you when you took that
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test? I didn't take it till I got out
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of out of prison and was actually in a social work class.
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And that was the first time I really you didn't.
6:23
Even know about that test until you were tested on that.
6:26
Yeah, exactly. I didn't know that a lot of
6:29
things that I experienced were traumatic because growing up in
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the 80s or 90s, you know, getting a severe weapon from
6:39
your parents, that was normal, you know, but it's traumatic.
6:44
One of the earliest memories I have is when I was like 5 years
6:48
old, I was hiding with my brother underneath our
6:52
grandmother's kitchen table. And we were actually living with
6:56
our grandmother at this time. And my dad was chasing my sister
7:01
and mom around with the hacksaw blade, threatening to kill them.
7:04
That's a normal my my grandma had to call the police on her
7:09
own son. And so there we were, watching
7:12
our dad being arrested. And you were five years old.
7:15
I was five years old and he was taking a psych ward for the
7:19
weekend and then release. But just the interactions
7:25
between our parents, I mean, there was so much arguing and
7:28
fighting all the time. I was the, I'm the baby, you
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know, so I thought my role was to like, protect my mom.
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And so I'd be the one who would always go there and just cuddle
7:40
with her and try to help her out while she's going.
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Through that's so much to think about as a young kid at that age
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that you're thinking that I need to protect my mom and I need to
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do something to help. Yeah, absolutely.
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And I mean it. Everything just progressed and
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got worse. My dad, he was in Vietnam, he
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got Agent Orange, got cancer because of Agent Orange, came
8:04
back, was a alcoholic and really they had very dysfunctional
8:10
relationship from the get go. I don't remember all the
8:14
details, but when I was three years old, my brother was six
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and my sister was eight. We were in South Carolina and
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all three of us actually went to a foster home.
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So my brother and I went to one foster home and my sister went
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to another. And I was told that we were
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there for six months and then they got custody back of us.
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But that just shows the the how long this dysfunction occurred.
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My dad actually kicked my sister out of the house when she was
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like 12 years old and I was what, 7?
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And with her though she went from living in receiving homes
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or group homes and living on the street.
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By 17 years old she had contracted HIV because of
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prostitution and IV use. And these are just a multiple
9:09
things that if we experience and.
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Did you lose your sister to that?
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While I was incarcerated, she passed away because of
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complications of HIV. And so she was what she was like
9:23
35 when she passed away. OK.
9:27
And then when you, like you said, my parents got divorced.
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I was nine years old. And my mother actually got
9:33
custody of us for about four months.
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And because she was an unfit mother, lost custody of us.
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And I mean, during that four month period, we probably went
9:43
to school eight times. She would she would wake us up
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in the morning, She'd be like, hey, kids, Joe, David, do you
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guys want to go to school today as a 8 year old, 9 year old,
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What are you going to say? No.
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And so we stayed at home. We were playing the Nintendo all
10:02
day, or watching HBO or just running around the apartment
10:05
complex. What did she do?
10:08
What was your mom doing at that time?
10:09
So she was actually the manager of a pizza place in Seattle.
10:14
So that's where we were living in.
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It was called Pizza Haven. And she'd always bring pizza and
10:19
Pepsi home every night. So not going to school every day
10:22
and eating pizza and Pepsi every night, I mean, how can you go
10:25
wrong? That's like a child's dreams
10:29
come true. So then what progresses here,
10:34
because it sounds like that you had everything coming at you and
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it sounds like, I mean, I, I didn't know the early part, that
10:44
you went into a foster home at 3 years old so that you just had
10:47
it going on all your life, early life.
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When does this nightmare begin for you with the abuser?
10:55
Because if I remember reading it had to do something maybe when
11:00
you were in a home care type thing and he was a.
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So my brother. Was.
11:06
Actually, my brother was actually kicked out of the house
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a little bit about two years after my parents got divorced.
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He was drinking a lot and got involved with smoking marijuana
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and stuff. And my uncle and dad told him if
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they caught him one more time that he was going to be kicked
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out of the house. And so he was kicked out of the
11:26
house and he went through CPS, which is Child Protective
11:30
Services in Washington, and he went into this group home and so
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in this group. That's what it was, a group
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home. Yeah, yeah.
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In this group home, there was a gentleman that had just gotten
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out of prison in South Carolina and moved to Washington and
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befriended the person running this home so he could have
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access to young boys. And in this, you know, he began
11:56
to groom my brother, you know, and then began molesting him.
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And this went on for a couple months and then he forced my
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brother into moving in with him. So after a couple months of that
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he takes my brother and they go down to California where my mom
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had moved and married a guy that was 14 years younger than her.
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And they he tells my mom and stepdad that they could move up
12:23
to Washington live for free in the apartment that he had and
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they would have everything provided for them.
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The only reason that he was doing this was so he could
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potentially have access to me. So January.
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Did you know anything, David, at that time about your brother and
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any abuse he was going through? No, I didn't know anything, you
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know, because we, I hadn't talked to him since he had been
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kicked out of the house. OK.
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And so they bring my mom and stepdad back up to Washington
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State. I get a call on January 1st,
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1991. My dad and I, we were getting
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ready to watch the Rose Bowl. I'm a die hard football fan.
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I played football for 11 years. So we were getting ready to
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watch the Rose Bowl. I get a call from my brother,
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who, as I told you, I hadn't spoken to in a long time.
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And he's like, hey, you should come over and watch the Rose
13:22
Bowl with us. And I'm like, I'm here doing
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this. And we go back and forth for
13:26
about 30 minutes. And then finally he puts my mom
13:29
on and I hear her voice. I'm like, OK, I'm coming over
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because my mom and I, you know, just had that relationship even
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though I hadn't seen her in like 2 years.
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She's mom, you know, I mean, I, I would do anything to see her
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and be there. And so I go over for the 1st
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about 3 hours. It's great.
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You know, I'm seeing my mom, I get a chance to meet my stepdad
13:56
and just we're having fun and then this guy's like, OK, let's
14:00
go play hide and go seek. So we go down into the basement.
14:04
As an 11 year old, this is what you do.
14:06
You play hide and. Go.
14:07
You play games like that, Yeah. And so I go down, I, I find a
14:12
closet to hide, hide in. And I thought I found a good
14:15
spot and this person found me. And then that's when the abuse
14:21
began. You know, I wrote a poem about
14:25
it, you know, and talk about like hands on me in ways it
14:28
shouldn't be, you know, and just the whole scenario happened.
14:33
And then walking up those steps, I, I was in this like state of
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confusion, you know, I didn't know really what happened, why
14:43
it happened. And then he pulled me to the
14:45
side and told me that if I ever told anybody that he would kill
14:49
me and my family. It's a lot for 11 year old to
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hear. Oh, absolutely.
14:55
You know, and that's when I began putting these masks on
15:00
because no one could know anything about me.
15:03
And I always tell people, you know, that for the next 8 years,
15:08
I became a really good actor because no one could know
15:12
anything about what's going on because I feared that my, my
15:16
parents, my brother and my sister and, or I would all be
15:20
killed. And so when I was at school, I
15:22
had one mask I wore. When I was at church, I had
15:25
another mask. Well, let's talk about the
15:27
school thing too, dude, because I, you mentioned you played
15:30
football. And so when you're in that
15:33
environment and, and you know, everyone around you seems like
15:38
they're living this normal life and you're, you, you have this
15:40
mask on and you have these things going on that you, you're
15:44
not even sure how to deal with. You know, there's you're in an
15:47
age where all that is all the teenage stuff's unfamiliar
15:52
anyway, but that when that happens, that takes it to a
15:55
whole another level of it's on steroids of of what your mind
15:59
must think. How was school for you and what
16:02
did how did that environment did?
16:04
Did that environment help being in school?
16:06
Did did it feel like you you were there was an escape for you
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sports was an escape? Or did you just feel like all
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the time that you just didn't fit?
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I mean, with the mask, it was always an escape, you know?
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And I always look back, you know, now, you know, I think
16:23
that I really used football as a way to get my anchor out, you
16:31
know, because I could legally hit somebody as hard as I want.
16:36
And I played fullback and linebacker, so I'm constantly
16:40
hitting people every play, you know?
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And I started both ways. So I'm playing a whole game,
16:47
constantly hitting folks. So I always think like, wow, you
16:50
know, that was one of the ways that I was able to get that
16:52
aggression and that rage and that hate out.
16:57
But yeah, it was always an escape for me.
17:00
Well, and it did. David did.
17:03
Like as you go through, you know, your middle school, your
17:06
high school, then you have these things that go along with dances
17:10
and dates. And did you, were you involved
17:13
in all that? Was that something that because
17:16
of what was going on in this world over here with this
17:20
abuser, were you taking part in all the things that a teenage
17:25
boy would do in that world? To an extent, you know, so there
17:30
was always limitations on things, you know, and what, what
17:38
I could do and where it went, you know, later on, you know,
17:43
really when it when the physical abuse and everything came on
17:48
later, you know, I mean, I will, I was forced to drop out of
17:51
school with this semester left my senior year.
17:55
And then that's when we went to Vegas for a couple months and
17:58
then went down to Louisiana where my mom and stepdad were.
18:02
And it actually got a whole lot worse down there.
18:05
And as you talked about the progression of the physical
18:10
abuse, you know, there was a key instance where we were, all
18:15
three of us, my brother, myself and the abuser, we were working
18:21
at this place called the Morgan City Grill, and it was a diner.
18:27
And we all were working third shift.
18:30
And what I would do at times is I would go into the bathroom to
18:33
use the restroom and count my tips, you know, after I used the
18:36
restroom, wash my hands, everything, you know, I wasn't,
18:39
you know, using the restroom. And then, you know, and I had
18:45
this four top, you know, so I don't know if you've ever waited
18:48
tables. Four top means I had four.
18:50
Customers. Yeah, 4 customers.
18:52
Right and it was three girls and one guy and they were from the
18:57
restaurant down the street that had shut down.
18:59
This was like two or three in the morning on Saturday morning.
19:03
So I'm over there waiting, flirting with the girls, you
19:05
know, because that's what waiters do you flirt, you get
19:09
bigger tips. So after I I talk with them, I
19:14
go into the restroom, you know, because I'm going to count my
19:17
tips. And the person that abused us
19:21
followed me in there, shut the door, grabbed me by the throat
19:26
and just pushed me against the paper towel dispenser.
19:29
And all I remember is that. And next thing I know is he's
19:33
punching me to bring me back to consciousness.
19:36
And it was instances like that, you know, where I knew that he
19:43
would kill us at any point at any time.
19:46
And. Did you mom know anything about
19:51
this because of the abuse And then it got physical?
19:53
Was there other times you were, you know, beat up and and
19:57
questions were asked? Or was it just something that
19:59
she turned a blind eye to? So she, I didn't know what she
20:09
thought she knew or anything like that until we were actually
20:12
in the county jail. When we were, it was a couple
20:16
months after we were arrested, we got a letter from my mom and
20:21
she said that one of her friends that she worked with had found
20:25
on the Internet that my brother and I were arrested.
20:29
And so she wrote us probably two months after we had been
20:34
writing. She's like, hey, can you guys
20:36
tell me everything that happened?
20:39
So we sat down one Friday. We spent the whole weekend
20:43
writing this letter. It was a 30 page letter from the
20:47
back and I have pretty tiny writing so just think about
20:52
like. Like a small book.
20:55
Yeah, like a book, 30 pages from the back.
21:00
And we told her everything that happened from when my brother
21:03
was abused first to the night of the murder.
21:08
And she wrote back a couple months later.
21:13
And when I actually got the letter at mail call it, I
21:19
couldn't understand the writing because it wasn't my mom's
21:23
writing. My step dad actually addressed
21:27
the letter and sent it to us. And he wrote a little note and
21:32
he said that our mom passed away of a massive heart attack when
21:36
she was writing us. And in the letter that she wrote
21:41
me, she said that she thought things were going on, but she is
21:48
so sorry that she never asked and she never pursued or pushed
21:52
anything. And but also in that letter, she
21:58
talked about how proud she was that I was working on getting my
22:03
GED and other things while I was in the county jail.
22:06
And so that was really hard because for about a year, year
22:13
and a half, here I am blaming myself for her death, saying if
22:19
I didn't write, if we didn't write that letter, she wouldn't
22:21
have passed away. She wouldn't have died.
22:25
But then I had to just realize that it was her time.
22:28
You know, wow, that's deep, David.
22:31
I mean, that's really something. And and you know, the, the fact
22:35
that you weren't able to, after writing that letter, create a, a
22:40
different type of conversation and relationship going forward.
22:44
It's just, it's, it's a lot. It's a lot.
22:47
You know, I well take me back to the because you know, you, you
22:52
went through this for years and walk us into the night that you
22:59
guys decided this is this is it, this is, this is going to you.
23:03
You took matters into your own hair.
23:04
What in your mind? What was going through your mind
23:07
at that at that time? Well, I mean, it wasn't really
23:11
like a, a decision where we're like, OK, this is it, this is
23:16
it. It was just a, a combination of
23:19
everything building up. We both have been drinking that
23:22
night. And in psychology, they talk
23:25
about singing red, you know, and that's the, the thought process
23:28
about just all kinds of rage and the hatred.
23:32
And, and that's really why that happened.
23:34
Everything had built up, and that's what led to the murder,
23:37
you know, And I, I, I don't go a day without regretting that
23:43
decision and regretting that we took somebody's life at that
23:47
moment, you know, it was what we felt had to be done, you know,
23:55
to escape, you know. But I always tell people, you
23:58
know, because there's a lot of people who have experienced what
24:02
I have, who wish that they could do what I have, you know, and I
24:07
always tell them like, no, you don't, you know, because you've
24:13
experienced a lot of trauma up until this point.
24:16
But I, I have to live with a thought every day that I took
24:21
somebody's life. Mm hmm.
24:24
And, you know, thinking about the idea that it was done to be
24:33
free, But in all actuality, I created another prison.
24:38
And for the next four months, I lived in that prison.
24:42
I lived every day with the fact that I had taken somebody's life
24:46
and I couldn't tell anybody about it because if I told
24:49
anybody, I would be arrested and charged with murder.
24:53
And so here it is. I'm.
24:55
Well, how did that go down David?
24:57
Cause like let's the so the you take his life.
25:01
I don't know how you took his life.
25:04
You guys walk out of there and then what happens?
25:09
So I mean, we just went into survival mode and we buried his,
25:14
buried his body because that was, we didn't have a car, we
25:17
didn't have anything like that. So.
25:20
Was it like a gunshot or something that you did?
25:23
I actually really don't talk about how we took the person's
25:26
life because that's a. More trauma.
25:30
Yeah. And yeah, we just decided at the
25:34
moment, you know, it was just like survival, like, OK, what do
25:38
what are we going to do now, right, to dispose of this body.
25:42
And so we just buried them in the backyard and four months
25:45
later they found the body. And during that four month
25:50
period, my life was just about drugs and alcohol, you know,
25:57
because I had to cope and my mentality was like sex, drugs
26:02
and rock'n'roll because there was this aspect of like, wow,
26:06
you know, I'm free. I'm 19 years old and I actually
26:10
get to live like a teenager now, you know, like all these things
26:16
that I have not experienced for years now I get to experience.
26:24
And yeah, it was just a lot of wild times.
26:29
I was doing any type of drugs I'm I was huffing free on.
26:34
I mean that like that tells you that I was doing anything and
26:40
everything just to to stay out of it.
26:44
You know. Now I worked during the day.
26:46
I was a waiter. So I knew that I had to work
26:50
because if I didn't work, I wasn't have the money for the
26:53
drugs later that night. Were you with your brother in
26:56
this time period, this four month time period?
26:58
So my brother was there for about a week and a half and then
27:02
him and a a waitress that we worked with, they decided to
27:06
leave. And so they left.
27:09
And when I was actually arrested, I was the first person
27:14
that was arrested. And my brother was arrested
27:16
about a month and a half later in Florida.
27:19
And the the night that I was arrested was October 29th, 1999,
27:25
so almost 25 years ago. Was that just a knock on the
27:29
door, David? I was actually at work.
27:32
I was, I was working at Shoney's and the detectives came and
27:37
they're like, hey, do you want to, can you come down for some
27:40
questioning? So I go down, you know, they
27:42
start asking questions. And that first night, I
27:46
partially confessed to what had happened.
27:48
And then they they booked me on a murder charge.
27:52
And here I am, 20 years old and this is an Alabama.
27:58
The murder happened in Alabama. Yeah, Alabama is one of those
28:04
states that loves to give out the death penalty.
28:06
So I'm thinking this whole weekend, this first weekend that
28:10
I'm in the county jail, I'm in this booking cell that was cold
28:14
as can be. I don't have enough clothing,
28:17
and I'm just crying myself to sleep.
28:19
I'm just thinking like, wait, what's going to happen?
28:22
Am I going to get the death button?
28:23
Am I going to get life? That's.
28:24
A lot to think about. Yeah and I hate just turned 20
28:29
like 3 weeks previously. Yeah.
28:32
So here I am, 20 years old, thinking I'm going to get.
28:35
Here to get the death penalty. I'm curious, David, did you when
28:38
you, when they arrested you or they, they were talking to you
28:42
and you were half confessing what was happening?
28:45
Did you lead them through what had happened to you?
28:48
Yeah, I did that. And then also November 1st when
28:52
I went back for more questioning, they'd come and
28:56
guide me at 8:00 AM, took me to the city jail and they put me in
29:01
an interrogation room by myself for seven hours.
29:05
I'm just sitting there by myself.
29:08
They did give me two packs of cigarettes and a little lighter.
29:12
I only had to use that lighter one time and all 2 packs of
29:16
cigarettes were gone in like 30 minutes because I was just chain
29:20
smoking because I hadn't smoking all weekend.
29:23
And again here, I'm stressed out.
29:26
You know I'm sitting in a city jail.
29:30
Thinking he might be getting a death sentence for or what
29:34
you're dealing with. Yeah.
29:36
So did you have an attorney or what?
29:39
How did that all work out for you?
29:40
I mean, it sounds like right now you're just being drug in and
29:43
out telling your story. Was there a time where you said,
29:46
hey, I need some representation here or what?
29:48
What happened? I mean, being green to this
29:51
situation, I, I didn't ask for an attorney anything like that.
29:54
They did offer me one, but I didn't know the system like I do
30:01
now, You know, right? I mean, none of us do, right?
30:04
And so I finally called the detective back in after the
30:10
seven hours where I was thinking about the abuse, thinking about
30:13
the murder, thinking about everything that transpired in my
30:15
life. And I confess, I told him
30:17
everything that happened, what happened to my brother and me,
30:21
what happened with the murder, What happened with everything
30:25
involved, you know, And that was this big weight taken off my
30:29
chest because this is the first time that I ever told anybody
30:33
about the abuse, the first time I'd ever told anybody about the
30:36
murder. And I was actually able to begin
30:40
to take off these masks. I no longer had to hide anymore.
30:45
That's fascinating. And they brought the video
30:49
camera and recorded my testimony.
30:52
The detective took me down to the cop corps, and we were
30:54
headed back to the county jail. And I look at him, I'm like, am
30:58
I going to get the death pun? Am I going to get life without
31:00
parole? And he turns to me.
31:01
He's like, do you believe in God?
31:03
I'm like, am I going to get the death punner life without
31:06
parole? He's like, do you believe in
31:07
God? I'm like, OK, am I going to get
31:09
the death punner, life without parole?
31:10
And he's like, do you believe in God?
31:12
I'm like, yeah, I believe in God.
31:14
And he's like, you need to seek him now.
31:16
And that really that conversation changed the whole
31:19
trajectory of my life because I got back to the county jail,
31:23
asked for a Bible. They gave me a little New
31:25
Testament Bible, and I just started reading.
31:27
And I surrender, surrender my life to God.
31:30
And, you know, that was the second thing that helped me take
31:34
the mask off. And my brother was arrested a
31:38
week and a half later in Florida, and he confessed to the
31:42
crime. And our testimonies were 100%
31:45
alike. And you have to realize, 1999,
31:49
you don't have cell phones. We're not talking all the time.
31:52
And so they knew that, you know, we were telling the truth
31:55
because we hadn't been in contact since a week after the
31:58
murder. Right.
32:01
So I just think the whole thing is so incredible.
32:07
How you you got through this, David?
32:10
Because it's just it's like a movie.
32:13
So you get you get through the confession, you get what are the
32:16
next steps that happened in the justice system?
32:19
How do you? Get to how?
32:21
Do you get to the point? Where legal system?
32:23
The legal system, and I saw that, actually, I saw that in
32:26
your writing, you talk about the the reform of the criminal,
32:29
criminal legal system, not the criminal justice system, which I
32:33
think is a good point, a really good point, because those who
32:36
have gone through that find that it's the criminal legal system.
32:41
Yeah. Justice isn't always sought
32:43
after. Yeah, Bryan Stevenson, who is a
32:47
fan of Equal Justice Initiative, world renowned lawyer, He
32:50
actually worked with my brother and me and helped us get out of
32:53
prison and help both of us with pardons later on in our life and
32:58
story. But he always says, you know,
33:00
the criminal legal system treats you better if you're rich and
33:04
guilty than if you're poor and innocent.
33:07
And I mean, here we are. We're two kids that they gave me
33:13
a $50,000 bail. Yeah, which was like a million
33:18
or $10 million bail because I didn't have family and we
33:22
weren't from Alabama. So I couldn't have anybody pay
33:26
$5000 for me to Get Me Out of prison, to Get Me Out of jail.
33:32
We were, I went before the judge at my preliminary hearing and
33:38
found out then that I was only being charged with murder.
33:41
So now Alabama murder, the sentence variation arranged is
33:46
10 years to 99 to life with the possibility of parole.
33:50
So that was this big relief, knowing that they weren't going
33:54
to give me the death penalty or weren't going to give me life
33:57
without parole. So that was definitely a big
33:59
relief. Then they gave me a court
34:02
appointed lawyer. So I love public defenders.
34:06
You know, I have a lot of public defenders that are friends.
34:09
The work that they do is incredible.
34:12
They're overworked and underpaid.
34:14
You know, we need to provide more money for these individuals
34:19
who have a passion for fighting for people and giving them the
34:25
the best. I agree.
34:28
I, I, I, I kind of take it to like teachers, you know, my, my
34:32
youngest daughter is a teacher and public defenders, they, they
34:35
do all this incredible passionate work, but they don't
34:39
really get paid. Yeah.
34:42
And in Alabama, there's only 5 counties that have public
34:46
defenders. So we were in a county where
34:48
they didn't. So we were given a defense
34:50
attorney who has to do a certain amount of cases of this court
34:54
appointed every year and my court appointed lawyer and my
34:58
brothers were pitiful. They really didn't want to do
35:01
anything for us. In Alabama, they have this thing
35:04
called youthful offender status. So if you're under 21 years old
35:08
and you commit an offense, you can apply for the status and
35:11
they can the most, if it's granted, the most time that they
35:14
can give you is three years. Do you know who didn't tell me
35:18
about the youthful offender status?
35:21
Your attorney. My attorney, Don't you think
35:24
that's something he should? Should have, Should have
35:27
suggested exactly. But he didn't.
35:28
The only way I found out about it is my brother and I were
35:31
looking in law books, you know, thinking about what we were
35:35
charged with, you know, thinking about our offense.
35:38
It actually fell under justifiable homicide, which is a
35:43
Class C felony, not murder, which is Class A felony that
35:47
they charged us with. But our lawyer didn't want to
35:50
fight anything like that. There were so many different
35:53
things that they did wrong. They only came with us with one
35:58
deal. The the my court appointed
36:02
lawyer, he was saying, hey, they're only going to offer you
36:04
one deal, 25 years. Then he's like, hey, if you have
36:10
to serve all 25 years, you'll still be a young 45 when you get
36:14
out. That's got that's got to be an
36:17
unbelievable statement when you're not 25 years old, you're
36:20
20 years old, you haven't even lived that long.
36:22
I was 21 years old when he told me that.
36:25
Yeah. And this is something that,
36:26
like, when I speak in universities, I'll find, I'll
36:29
ask like anybody 21, you know, and I'll go up and I'll ask
36:33
them. I'm like, what?
36:34
How would you react if your lawyer told you that, you know,
36:38
25, you'll be a young 45, you know, like, come on, what?
36:42
I don't even know what 30 looks like or 40, you know, but 45,
36:47
you know, it's like, wow. But we took the plea deal, you
36:53
know, because again, we were agreeing this to the system.
36:56
We didn't know that we should have pushed back.
36:58
We, we, we didn't know that they would have come with another
37:01
offer potentially, you know, And so there's a lot of things that
37:07
we didn't do to fight for ourselves because we didn't
37:12
know. How did what were your thoughts
37:17
going into prison? You know, you're a 21 year old
37:20
kid, you're a young kid, you're you're spending you just got
37:23
sent to prison with a lot of time.
37:27
How were you thinking? Like what was going through your
37:29
mind going walking in? Well, I was glad to get out of
37:32
the county jail because our county jail, we had no TV's, no
37:36
radio, no newspaper, no real connection to the outside world.
37:39
So it was going to provide that. But even in the county jail, you
37:45
know, I told myself that I was going to do the time instead of
37:47
letting the time to me. So my mentality was, yeah,
37:53
because, I mean, I got my GED in the county jail, and I was
37:56
looking forward to other opportunities like that to
37:58
continue to better myself. Because I was telling myself,
38:01
even if I have to do all 25 years, I want to be a better
38:05
David Garlock when I get out of prison than when I went into
38:08
prison. And, I mean, I was able to get a
38:13
certificate in drafting there through the Chapel.
38:16
One prison we had a master's theology degree.
38:21
So I was able to get a master's of theology through an
38:23
unaccredited school. Everything I was doing was the
38:26
better myself. Went through behavioral
38:28
modification programs. The last three years that I
38:31
served. I did some of the hardest work
38:34
that I did while I was incarcerated, but also some of
38:37
the most beneficial. I did Hospice work.
38:43
It was so hard taking care of these men, knowing that they
38:50
were going to take their last breaths in prison, that they
38:53
were never going to be able to experience freedom, and that the
38:57
Department of Corrections didn't care about them.
39:00
All they cared about is that you were going to serve your
39:04
sentence. If you were given a life without
39:06
parole sentence or a life sentence, they were just going
39:08
to be there until you took your last breath.
39:11
And it was disheartening because there was no humanity, you know?
39:18
And I can't, I can't imagine, you know, you and I both been in
39:21
prison. To die in prison, it would be
39:25
the ultimate freedom loss, not being on the outside to die.
39:32
Yeah, And just the the idea that these individuals could never
39:36
commit another offense, but the Department of Corrections is
39:40
like, Nope, you're going to die in prison.
39:42
It, it was just so inhumane and just watching the amount of
39:49
people that died, you know, and just saying now, you know, in
39:52
some of the, the work that I do here in Pennsylvania, we're
39:55
doing work around geriatric and medical parole and parole
39:59
eligibility for people with life without parole.
40:02
I'm just thinking about that. 40% of people in prison right
40:05
now are 55 and older. And one of my colleagues, Dr.
40:09
Megan Novitsky at Cleveland State University, always makes a
40:13
comment that you're not watching these news, You're not watching
40:19
the 11:00 news where there's big crime wave.
40:23
Of people in. Wheelchairs and walkers
40:26
committing these robberies and stuff, you know, it's because
40:31
the criminal legal system has given out, has doled out all
40:36
these. Really long sentences, yeah.
40:38
And. I, you know, I had Elizabeth
40:40
Shatzwell on 2/3 episodes ago and she's, she's a real advocate
40:45
for everything to do with healthcare and the, and mostly
40:50
for older people who are serving time in prison because it has
40:55
she, she, she was in prison for murder.
41:01
It was complicated, but it it was her.
41:06
She became a real educated person on the subject.
41:09
And you guys ought to meet up because her passion for that is,
41:13
is, has gone, you know, further than where she's at right now.
41:18
I'm curious too, David, you know, during your time in there
41:22
and, and, and, and becoming that becoming like what you're
41:27
talking, I can just kind of tell how you're talking about became
41:29
a passion of yours. When was it that you started
41:33
learning that you might be able to be able to get out earlier
41:38
than the 25 years? Well, I mean, in Alabama, you're
41:42
always eligible for parole, except now, you know, the parole
41:47
board in Alabama is really horrible now.
41:50
So I'm glad that we had decent parole boards when both my
41:55
brother and I went up. And in 2008, Bryan Stevenson,
41:59
the Equal Justice Initiative started working with us and they
42:02
initially started looking at our case and realized that there was
42:07
multiple reasons that we could appeal.
42:10
But Alabama has a limited time frame as far as appeals.
42:14
So they just changed the the focus on to helping both of us
42:18
out with parole. And really because of the
42:22
different things that I was that I had accomplished while I was
42:25
incarcerated, I was able to to make parole.
42:29
Did you serve time with your brother?
42:31
So we were at one prison together for about a year when
42:36
we first went down, that we were in the same cell in the county
42:38
jail for like 8 months. Yeah.
42:41
But when we went to prison, Alabama had a role that family
42:45
members couldn't be at the same prison, but they changed that
42:48
later on while we were serving. And so we were able to serve a
42:51
year together and it was really fun.
42:54
You know, my brother's not really into sports, but he was
42:58
playing some soccer, so I play. I played basketball, volleyball,
43:04
softball. I did everything.
43:05
You know, I've always been an athlete.
43:07
And so there were times just to to spend time, I'd play soccer
43:11
with them. You know, most of the times we
43:13
were on opposite teams. But there was one time I
43:16
remember where we were on the same team and we, we, I had got
43:21
the ball. And so he and I were on this
43:23
breakout, you know, and I have it, I passed it to him.
43:26
I, he passes back to me and I score.
43:28
And people like it's a Garlock to Garlock to Garlock score.
43:32
And so it was. In prison.
43:35
But you. Know it's funny, though, you
43:38
bring up the thing about sports in prison.
43:39
I think it's one of the things that kind of lets you have an
43:41
escape. You feel like you're up maybe on
43:43
the outside because you feel normal.
43:45
You know, you're playing these sports and you, you, you forget
43:48
for a while that you're in prison just because you're in
43:50
the, the throes of, of playing a sport that that makes you feel a
43:53
certain way when you're on the outside.
43:55
So I, I, I get why guys do that. The only thing you don't want to
43:58
do in in prison is get hurt. So many guys would break a wrist
44:02
or ankle. It was just like, and then some
44:05
guys who were getting close to the door, they, they wouldn't
44:07
get released because of that. So playing basketball in prison,
44:11
I, I bust my eye open, bust the back of my head, lost the tooth,
44:14
separated shoulder, mess up both ankles.
44:17
But I would always get back out there, you know, and people will
44:19
call me. Like it's a different sport in
44:21
in in prison basketball because I played basketball in high
44:26
school on the basketball in prison.
44:28
That's a different sport in there.
44:29
Oh yeah. That definitely is you.
44:31
Know full contact I. I got called my nickname playing
44:34
ball was white chocolate, you know, because I, I played point
44:38
and I could dish the ball, you know?
44:40
They like that everybody likes the ball, passed it up.
44:45
You know what I I forgot, you know, I said at the beginning of
44:47
this and we had not had a subject matter unlike this.
44:51
But you know, now that I think about it, David, we had my first
44:54
season, Stacy Lannard, and it was a well known story in
44:59
Missouri. She and her sister were
45:03
molested, sexually abused by their father and she killed her
45:07
father and she got a life sentence.
45:09
Then she got her sentence commuted, then she got pardoned
45:13
and now she is. What made me think of what
45:15
triggered my mind is she now represents people for the state
45:19
of Missouri and has a seat at the table on these types of
45:24
issues. So Stacy Lanard, I didn't forget
45:27
about you. You have an incredible and
45:30
anybody who wants to listen to that one that's in the first
45:32
season. But you know, when you talking
45:38
about people helping you, how did they, how did you find them,
45:42
David, or how did they find you? So one of my friends in prison
45:47
was actually a client of Brian Stevenson, and then that's how
45:49
they connected us. OK, so you find, you know you're
45:54
going to this parole hearing and I can't?
45:56
Imagine. No, no, no, we don't go to
45:59
parole hearings in Alabama. You don't.
46:00
You don't you're not attending. No, somebody attends for you.
46:03
Yes. Let let me let me know how that.
46:07
Feels that is really horrible, you know, because you can't go
46:12
in front of the board yourself. You can't, so you.
46:15
Just sit and wait. Yeah, you sit and wait for you
46:18
wait to call your family or friends or lawyer to find out
46:22
what happens later. Wow, you know, And sometimes you
46:25
won't know for a couple days too.
46:27
So how can they make a judgement or an evaluation on someone if
46:31
they don't see him and talk to him?
46:33
Well, a lot of it is based on. Case manager write ups and all
46:39
that kind. Of stuff, write ups, what you've
46:41
done while you're incarcerated, you can send all your
46:43
certificates, stuff like that. You do see an institutional
46:47
parole officer. So the parole officer will come
46:51
interview you. OK.
46:53
Then they put a report to the parole board and there
46:58
potentially, let me say potentially quotation marks
47:03
trying to work on things where the incarcerated population can
47:07
at least do a zoom with the parole board.
47:11
But that's the thing. I mean, you're not there to
47:14
speak on your behalf. And here's the kicker too.
47:19
Almost every parole, especially now with how corrupt and messed
47:24
up the Alabama Parole Board and Pardon Board is now, you're
47:29
constantly having a victim's advocate there and you're having
47:33
somebody there from the attorney general.
47:35
And 99.9% of the time they're protesting whoever's coming up
47:41
for prison. They don't care what you've done
47:43
in prison. They always go back to what
47:46
offense You, you, you did, you know, so you're not being judged
47:53
on. Rehabilitation.
47:54
You've done and who you are now you're being judged on that
47:57
person 20304050 years ago. Yeah, and that's so wrong.
48:02
When? The other thing, too, David,
48:04
that we talked about before we got on was the amount of loss
48:09
that you had in your family while you were in prison.
48:12
How did you deal with that? I mean, your mom dies before you
48:15
ever go into prison, but you were in custody and then you
48:19
lost three or four people while you were in prison.
48:21
How did you work through that? Because that's such AII was with
48:24
two or three people that lost people that were very close to
48:28
them. One was a son.
48:31
Murphy lost his mom. That is so deep and dark for
48:36
that to happen while you're in prison and you can't go out and
48:38
be with your family. What?
48:39
How did you work through that? I mean, a lot of that was my
48:42
faith. You know, my grandma passed away
48:45
in 2008. My dad passed away in 2009, and
48:48
my sister passed away in 2010. And like you said, my mom passed
48:53
away in 2000 when we're in the county jail.
48:55
Yeah. And it was always, you know,
48:58
just that faith, You know, I'm relying and trusting in God.
49:03
When I found out that my dad was in the hospital, it was a Friday
49:07
afternoon and I heard my name over the loudspeaker saying
49:11
David Garlock, report to the Chapel.
49:14
That is something you do not want to hear because 95% of the
49:19
time it's going to be someone sick.
49:22
Somebody's I'll, somebody's dead.
49:24
So I go in. I, I had a really good
49:29
relationship with the chaplain, you know, so he told me to sit
49:31
down and we had this conversation and he told me that
49:36
they had gotten a call that my dad was in a coma out of
49:40
California. And when I was a kid, when I was
49:44
probably 12 years old, we found out that my dad had cancer due
49:48
to Agent Orange and that he was going to die every six months
49:51
for, like, two or three years, you know?
49:53
So we didn't believe it after that.
49:56
So I mean, it was something that was expected that was going to
50:01
happen. Yeah.
50:03
But it was still like you said. I mean, here I am, incarcerated.
50:06
I can't do anything about it. So I walked back to the dorm and
50:11
one of my friends is standing outside by the the phones, you
50:14
know, and he's like, hey David, how you doing?
50:16
And he sees that, you know, I've been crying and stuff.
50:19
And what was really incredible about this experience is like 3
50:24
days earlier he had lost his nephew.
50:28
And so I was there able to comfort him and talk with him
50:32
and console him. And here he is 3 days later
50:35
being able to do the same thing to me.
50:37
And so I walk into into the dorm and they call count time.
50:42
So in Alabama, when they do count time, you have to sit down
50:44
on your bed and just wait for them to come in and count.
50:47
And so there I sit down. I just start praying.
50:50
I'm like, God, I just need some comfort now and open up my
50:55
Bible. And I go to the story of David
50:57
and Bathsheba and their son being sick and David fasting and
51:03
praying, you know, And when he realized that the child was
51:05
dead, he got up and cleaned himself and was ready to get
51:09
back to normal stuff. And his workers were like, wait,
51:12
what are you doing? You know, you should be
51:15
mourning. He's like, well, when the child
51:18
was still alive, I was praying and I knew that God could heal
51:22
him. But now that he's passed away, I
51:24
know that I can't go. He can't come back, but I can go
51:28
to him. And so that just provided so
51:30
much comfort because I knew that, you know, God could heal
51:35
him if he wanted to, but that I would see him again.
51:39
Wow, that's heavy, deep stuff. But it makes sense, David.
51:45
So let's talk about the stuff with you.
51:47
You, you've you get to the parole hearing, you find out.
51:52
How do you find out? So I found out with a phone call
51:57
when I called Brian Stevenson in February 2013.
52:02
And then I they said that I made parole and I got paperwork that
52:06
I was going to be released on April 1st, 2013.
52:10
April Fools Day. April Fools Day.
52:12
Exactly, you know, and there were actually two officers that
52:14
wanted to joke around with me and they told me that morning
52:17
they're like, Garlock, your paperwork hasn't come in, you
52:19
can't go home. I'm like, I'll know I love to
52:21
joke around and have fun, but my freedom, it's not something I
52:24
want to to joke around about. Y'all let's go.
52:26
And then finally they're like, OK, get out of here.
52:30
What was it like? What were you walking out to?
52:35
I walked out to a car because people from Equal Justice
52:38
Initiative were there to pick me up.
52:40
But so both my brother and I went through their reentry
52:45
program where they assisted us with studio apartment and then
52:54
just helped us with working on resumes, different things like
52:58
that to obtain employment. It took me a month and a half to
53:02
get my first job. Arby's wouldn't hire me.
53:06
Burger King, McDonald's, none of the fast food places would even
53:10
give me an interview because I checked that box.
53:15
My first job I had for one hour one day and two hours.
53:20
And it's not because I did anything wrong, it's because
53:24
they never asked me about my background when I was first
53:28
interviewed. And the second day the general
53:31
manager had an issue with me having a felony and had an issue
53:36
with me having a violent offense.
53:41
And she tried to blame it on the company for the reason that she
53:45
was firing me because she said, oh, we have a company policy
53:49
that says we can't have violent people working here, which two
53:53
weeks later, I found out from the kitchen manager that that
53:56
was false and that was her, just her issue.
53:59
And so that's something I always talk about, you know, when I
54:02
speak in universities that, you know, people who have
54:04
backgrounds, we not only have to deal with companies and their
54:08
biases, but we have to deal with individuals.
54:11
Actual people, right? Makes it so much harder, you
54:14
know, especially with what type of offense people have.
54:17
Well, and, and it's and it is true and, and not all offenses
54:21
are the same, but they're all put in the same bucket.
54:24
And you know, it is one. I think we're one of the last of
54:29
our breed to be legally discriminated against.
54:32
You know, it's it's legal not to rent to you.
54:34
It's legal not to give a job to you because of who you are.
54:39
And, you know, there's a lot of things out there on re entry
54:43
that people doing good work, you know, and, and I think, you
54:48
know, there's like 27,000,000 plus of people, you know, ex
54:52
felons. And, and I think one of the
54:56
things that we've got to do as being who we are is I think
55:00
we're obligated as we go through our experience, both you and I,
55:03
David, we're both trying to do what we can do to bring a better
55:07
and bigger voice to the cause because we know what we went
55:12
through and, and what the system is.
55:15
But you know, it's, it's about getting those people out of
55:17
silos and building bridges so that people can understand.
55:21
I know I just interviewed Tara Simmons, who was up in
55:24
Washington. She's a state Rep and she's been
55:28
able to accomplish so much by she went to prison.
55:31
She was a drug addict. She got out, she went to law
55:34
school. The bar wouldn't let her sit.
55:36
She went to the Supreme Court, she won.
55:39
She broke that barrier. She then was able to run for a
55:43
state Rep, state representative. She got in.
55:45
She then started educating people about things that were
55:50
barriers that the legislators didn't know that she did know.
55:53
And by her having a seat at the table, they've completely in the
55:56
state of Washington changed so many laws for re entry for
56:00
people getting out because she knows it.
56:04
And, you know, that's what I see, David, about your story is,
56:08
is you have so many different layers of things that, you know,
56:12
that you're using your story to help people in a way that
56:16
someone that has an experience that can't really do the same
56:19
thing that you're doing. But I don't want to jump ahead
56:21
of that because we left that you weren't getting a job at
56:25
McDonald's and Arby's. How did you how did you step
56:27
forward, David? I mean it, it was later that
56:32
week after I got fired, I went into this restaurant and the
56:36
manager, their name was Bud Skinner.
56:39
And he's like, hey, let's do an interview.
56:42
So I did an interview. He's like, hey, you have a 13
56:44
1/2 year gap on your resume. Can you tell me about it?
56:48
And I'm thinking right then it's like, I have to make this
56:51
decision. Am I going to tell the truth or
56:53
am I going to lie? Yeah.
56:54
So I decided to tell the truth. I told him everything that
56:57
transpired about the abuse, the murder, what I did while I was
57:00
incarcerated. And my goal is my objectives.
57:03
He's like, hey, because you're an open, because you were open
57:06
and honest, I'm going to give you a job.
57:08
I. Love that I'm.
57:09
Going to start you off at $9 an hour as a dishwasher.
57:13
He's like, I have never hired anybody who's been formally
57:17
incarcerated. And I was just like blown away.
57:20
And I was a dishwasher for three days and got promoted to doing
57:24
soup, salads, appetizers and desserts.
57:27
And I was there for six months before I transferred my parole
57:31
from Alabama to Pennsylvania. And I was so people that Bud
57:35
Skinner was probably my worst boss ever because he is one of
57:44
those Type A personalities that. I thought you were going to say
57:47
he's your best because he gave me this job.
57:49
You say he's your worst boss. Ever.
57:50
No, I mean, I love that aspect, but I'm somebody he.
57:55
Was I get it. He cursed me out three days a
57:58
week. Yeah, just because he wanted to.
58:01
I'm doing everything right. But that's his personality.
58:03
And yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not talking about, like, one
58:05
of these things where he's a couple feet away.
58:08
Yeah. He's like 2 inches from my face.
58:11
His face is red and he's spitting in my face.
58:16
Yeah. I wish I had, like, an umbrella
58:18
to, like, stop it. But then I had to tell myself
58:21
I'm like, treat him like a corrections officer because if I
58:24
don't, I'm going to get fired. So I'm just standing there.
58:27
Yes, Sir. No, Sir, thank.
58:29
You, Sir. But something I'll never forget
58:33
is the the last day I went into the to Jubilee Seafood to get my
58:39
check and everything, he called me to his office.
58:42
He handed me his check and he put his arms out to give me a
58:47
hug. And he gave me this bear, Big
58:49
Bear hug. I'm like, why haven't you been
58:51
doing this the whole six months? You've been cursing me out, but
58:54
now you want to give me this big old hug?
58:56
Yeah. And then he told me something
58:58
I'll never forget. And he he passed away about two
59:02
years ago. He told me he's like, David, you
59:06
had a crap story done to you, but he used different adjective.
59:09
Fill in the blank. You know he's like you could
59:13
easily feel and go around being the victim, but you're not.
59:18
You know you're going out there and you're achieving and earning
59:22
what you want. You don't want people to just to
59:24
hand you something. Yeah, that's big and it's true.
59:30
There's a big difference between being a victim and a survivor.
59:32
And it gives one gives you, takes away all your strength and
59:35
curls you up in a fetal position.
59:37
The second one gives you strength and and you walk
59:39
differently and and you walk with pride.
59:42
How did you get to Pennsylvania? So I was able to.
59:46
So in 2008, when Bryan Stevenson started working with me, he
59:50
started telling me about Eastern University, which is a Christian
59:53
college outside of Philadelphia where he got his undergrad.
59:56
And so they started writing me and I was definitely intrigued
1:00:00
with the university and potentially going up there, you
1:00:04
know, and then I got a. I got the booklet about Eastern
1:00:09
and what they offer, and I saw that they had a prison ministry
1:00:12
and the street ministry, and that really solidified it.
1:00:15
Like, yeah, that's where I want to go.
1:00:16
Because you have a lot of Christian schools or churches
1:00:20
that say they believe in faith and have faith, but they're not
1:00:24
putting feet to their faith. But seeing that they had a
1:00:29
prison ministry and the street ministry, I was like, OK,
1:00:32
they're living out the gospel. Yeah.
1:00:35
And so we were writing when I got out.
1:00:38
I had applied and I applied to two different universes.
1:00:41
I applied to Alabama State University, which is HBCU there,
1:00:46
Montgomery, AL, and also Eastern University.
1:00:49
And the doors open for me to go up to Eastern.
1:00:53
And what's incredible about it is I actually had to get my
1:00:56
parole transferred from Alabama to Pennsylvania.
1:01:00
That usually takes six months to a year, if not longer.
1:01:04
It happened in three weeks, four days before school started.
1:01:10
And I'm just like, I was amazed. And just like my wife always
1:01:15
tells me, you know, she's like your life is.
1:01:17
Rainbows and. Horseshoes and butterflies.
1:01:21
I was like, Hey. Let's talk about her.
1:01:23
How did that come about? So we met in 2015, in April
1:01:28
2015, we were in the doctor's office.
1:01:32
We met, we started dating May 7th, yeah, May 17th, 2015, got
1:01:39
engaged July 25th, 2015 and married August 15th, 2015.
1:01:45
So within like a three month period we went from dating to
1:01:48
marriage and. We've been married.
1:01:50
I know you really liked. Her almost nine years.
1:01:53
Yeah, nine years now. Yeah, and we have a almost 4
1:01:57
year old son who is just the epitome of what a second chance
1:02:01
looks like. And if I'd never made parole in
1:02:05
2013, I would still be in prison till October 27th, 2000. 20 Wow.
1:02:10
And that's something to think about.
1:02:11
Wow. And I always dreamt about a
1:02:14
family, I was dreamt about having children.
1:02:16
And. Every day, you know, just seeing
1:02:19
him is just the epitome of what, a second chance.
1:02:22
Looks like that's so cool, David.
1:02:25
So let let's talk about 'cause you, you, you speak, you're on
1:02:28
boards, you're in the ministry. I feel like you're working your
1:02:33
passion man. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's
1:02:36
definitely incredible. I mean, what's really
1:02:39
interesting about it is when I went into Eastern University, my
1:02:43
goal was to major in social work and open up a home for kids and
1:02:46
teens to get them off the streets 'cause I had an
1:02:49
experience when I was a teenager living on the streets in
1:02:52
Seattle, you know, but there was like some tweaks and turns.
1:02:58
And so my major is actually urban studies focusing on
1:03:01
criminal justice and social welfare.
1:03:02
So it's, it's urban studies, criminal justice and social work
1:03:06
all combined. And I've been involved in
1:03:09
reentry work. I worked at a Christian reentry
1:03:11
home in Lancaster, PA, called New Prison Ministries.
1:03:15
And this ministry primarily works with people who have
1:03:18
committed sexual offenses. So people are always like.
1:03:22
No, I when we first talked, David, that was one of the most
1:03:25
shocking things about your story because you're dealing with
1:03:30
people who have committed sexual offenses.
1:03:32
I mean, you could deal with a lot of other people with RE
1:03:33
entry, but that in particular really caught my attention.
1:03:37
Yeah, and people are always like, how in the world can you
1:03:39
do this? You know, you should hate this
1:03:41
population. You should believe that they
1:03:43
need to be buried underneath the prison and never be released.
1:03:47
But you know, I always tell people it's about grace, it's
1:03:50
about mercy, it's about forgiveness.
1:03:53
And Bryan Stevenson always says you're not as bad as worst thing
1:03:55
you've ever done. If I want people not to look at
1:03:58
me as a murderer, how can I not look at somebody else as
1:04:02
whatever offense? You know, in the movement today,
1:04:05
there's a lot of work being done about using person first
1:04:09
language. So getting away from terms like
1:04:12
convict, felon, murder, things like that.
1:04:15
And so using terms that humanize so formerly incarcerated,
1:04:20
incarcerated person, person who committed a murder, person who
1:04:23
committed a sexual offense, because you want to separate the
1:04:27
act that somebody did and the actual person.
1:04:31
I like that. I want to ask you a question
1:04:33
here. Before I do, I want to recognize
1:04:36
the White Collar Support Group. Nimer Success Podcast is
1:04:40
sponsored by the White Collar Support Group, the world's first
1:04:42
support group devoted to people navigating the white collar
1:04:44
criminal justice system. I'm a member of the White Collar
1:04:47
Support Group and I can tell you this is a bunch of people who
1:04:49
help each other through the criminal justice journey for
1:04:52
free. Whether you're just starting
1:04:53
your journey or you made it through to the other side, this
1:04:56
is a great space for you. You can join us on Zoom Monday,
1:04:59
7:00 PM Eastern Time, 4:00 PM Pacific.
1:05:02
For information, go to prisonist.org.
1:05:04
That's prisonist.org. Start here.
1:05:07
So all this going on, David, all this going on in in, I mean, I
1:05:14
can't imagine what 13 years coming out and and re entering
1:05:17
society, you know, how much had changed.
1:05:20
Well, in fact, what was the biggest thing for you that had
1:05:22
changed? I always tell people because
1:05:24
that's a question people ask, you know, and I would tell them
1:05:27
that one of the craziest experiences was couple, couple,
1:05:32
probably 30 minutes after I was out, you know, we went to
1:05:35
Walmart and because I had to get hygiene, you know, and just
1:05:39
being able to choose so many things.
1:05:41
Sensory overload. I mean, 100 blue toothbrushes,
1:05:44
which one do I want? You know, 100 different
1:05:47
toothpaste, hundred different deodorants.
1:05:49
And so at one point I just started just grabbing stuff and
1:05:52
I'm like, I don't care, you know?
1:05:54
But then. And all the colors too, you
1:05:57
know? Oh, yeah.
1:05:57
You live in a drab world where everybody wears the same, you
1:06:00
know, and, and anything you buy from commissary, it's Gray or
1:06:03
whatever. It's weird too, when you get out
1:06:06
and there's just, it's like a color boom.
1:06:08
It's like you were living in black and white and your world
1:06:10
turns into color. Yeah, definitely.
1:06:12
And so then the the folks are like, hey, we have a three hour
1:06:15
ride. I'm like, OK, let me go use the
1:06:16
restroom. So I go into the restroom, I
1:06:19
walk up to the urinal. I'd use the restroom and I'm
1:06:22
like looking, I'm like, where's the lever?
1:06:24
I'm like, I can't see it. And then I back up and the
1:06:26
toilet flushes. I was like, why?
1:06:28
I was like, where have you been all my life, you know?
1:06:31
And it's just like, same thing with this sink, you know?
1:06:34
So things like that really blew my mind.
1:06:37
And then like texting folks, people were using all this lingo
1:06:40
like SMH. I'm like, what's that?
1:06:42
They're like shaking my head. I'm like, OK, why?
1:06:44
They're like, no silly. I was like, hey, text, type
1:06:48
everything out to me, you know? I don't know y'all's lingo, you
1:06:51
know? So David, after you've, I mean,
1:06:56
your story is like a movie and and maybe it will be a movie,
1:07:00
but living through what you've lived through and where you are
1:07:04
now, what do you think for the listeners out there is your
1:07:07
biggest take away through all this you've experienced?
1:07:13
My biggest take away is I always go back to, there's a passage in
1:07:18
2nd Corinthians 1, three and four, it says God is God of all
1:07:21
comforts and tender mercies and he comforts us so we can comfort
1:07:24
others. And I, I've been asked numerous
1:07:29
times like David, if you could change anything in your life,
1:07:31
what would it be? And I'm like nothing.
1:07:34
Because if you take anything away from my life, I'm not who I
1:07:37
am. I don't have the passion I have
1:07:38
and I'm not doing the work I'm doing.
1:07:40
And here I am. I get to take my scars and I get
1:07:45
to show my scores to people who have scabs and let them know
1:07:49
that healing is possible and and let them know that yes, it's
1:07:53
going to be a journey, but you can get there, you know, healing
1:07:56
is possible, you know, and your. Past.
1:08:00
Your past is just the thick thing that educates you.
1:08:05
What you do today, what you do tomorrow, that's what defines
1:08:08
you. It's such a great take away you,
1:08:14
you're and you're giving people real hope and hope can be a
1:08:17
powerful thing because if you take hope away, it takes away a
1:08:21
lot of it might be the only thing that people have.
1:08:23
But if you can give people hope, it can get them to the point
1:08:26
where they can, you know, take the courage to step forward.
1:08:28
And I think that's what you're doing, David, when you're
1:08:30
sharing your story and sharing your experience.
1:08:32
And I think it's powerful talking about how how do we get
1:08:37
a hold of you? What's the best way to get a
1:08:38
hold of David? I mean, I'm on Twitter and
1:08:41
Facebook. David Lee Garlock, I, as you
1:08:45
said, I do a lot of speaking. I travel the country, so I have
1:08:48
a website, davidlgarlock.com, and you can also reach me at
1:08:54
d.garlockspeaker@gmail.com if you want me to come to your
1:08:59
university or any other stuff. I speak at conferences, I speak
1:09:04
at churches, I'll speak anywhere you want.
1:09:06
I can only imagine how powerful that is because I've just heard
1:09:09
your story here today. You'd be a great speaker for any
1:09:12
event. I want to give a shout out to
1:09:16
Homestead Financial lets me use this nice little podcast studio
1:09:20
here. And anybody who's looking for
1:09:23
their home mortgage leads, go to Greg FDF.
1:09:25
He knows his stuff. Anybody looking for a book out
1:09:27
there still reading? I've got mine at Nightmare
1:09:31
Success. You can go to Amazon, Barnes and
1:09:34
Noble. I do really appreciate everybody
1:09:37
with the follows, the likes, the subscriptions, comments.
1:09:41
And if you got time, I know it's a hassle, but leave a review on
1:09:44
Apple. That just puts the show on
1:09:46
steroids. It just does.
1:09:47
I don't know what it is. If you want to know more about
1:09:50
me, it's Brett cassidy.com. That's with a Ty, not a DY.
1:09:54
We spell it wrong. And as I used to say when I was
1:09:58
writing my emails back and forth from Leavenworth, stay strong.
1:10:01
I'll do the same. David Garlock, what an
1:10:05
incredible story. What an incredible man.
1:10:08
Thank you so much for being here today sharing your story.
1:10:11
Absolutely. Thank you for having me.
1:10:14
Dimer success in and out.