Latest / Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald / Head of Scientology’s Niece, Jenna Miscavige Tells All

Transcript

Head of Scientology’s Niece, Jenna Miscavige Tells All · Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: They think you're done for the day, but they don't
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: know about the drawer. The drawer. Just the one square
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: before bed. Or two, you know. Nobody's watching. You deserve
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: a treat. With eight flavours to choose from, you can
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: choose the flavour you favour with Cadbury Dairy Milk.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: Heather MacDonald has got the Juicy Scoop.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: When you're on the road, when you're on the go,
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  Speaker 1: Juicy Scoop is the show to know.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: She talks Hollywood tales for real life, Mr. Saving Serial
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: Data and Serial Sisters.
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  Speaker 1: You'll be addicted and addicted.
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  Speaker 3: Fast to the number one tabloid real life podcast.
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: Listen in, listen up.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: Woo, woo.
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: Heather MacDonald.
• 1:00
  Speaker 4: Juicy Scoop.
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. Well, I have a
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: great brand new show for you today. A super juicy
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: interview is going to come after I get into a
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: few hot topics and updates with the niece of the
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: head of Scientology. Yeah, it's a real juicy one. First,
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: a couple updates. So we now know that Nick, Rob
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: Reiner's son, who is being held for the murders of
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: Rob Reiner and his wife, Michelle Reiner, who is also
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: a photographer and quite accomplished singer. He has been diagnosed
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: with schizophrenia. And in that diagnosis of schizophrenia, they had
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: changed his medication around, which they thought was going to work.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: It was not working. Also, there's been reports that Rob
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  Speaker 2: Reiner did share with friends that he was very afraid
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: of him. Also, there was talk that there were people
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: who did want to call the cops on Nick, being
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: that his behavior was so bizarre at Conan O'Brien's party.
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: But according to page six, he didn't want to do that.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: He didn't want to make a bigger deal out of it.
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: Maybe at the request of Rob, I don't know. Also,
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: that he was.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: Either not living in the guest house or was not
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: being kicked out of the guest house, something to that effect.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: But like I said before, I think that there, besides
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  Speaker 2: him going through his mental situation, he, I think there
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: was probably some type of finality in some type of conversation.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: I don't know that would have set him off. We
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  Speaker 2: will never really know, even if he comes to, I
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: don't know that he'll ever really tell us the steps
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: of what happened, but, um, you know, it's just very disturbing.
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  Speaker 2: And his, his family has spoken out and thank everyone
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: for the outpouring, but that's what we are with the,
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: with the schizophrenia. And he was in a, a very
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  Speaker 2: expensive place just prior to what happened, which was $ 70, 000
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: a month. Then the diagnosis of schizophrenia, the change of medication.
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: So if they are going for a not guilty by
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: reason of insanity, but then he gets put away. I
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: don't know that people ever get put away for life.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: So if that is the case, I think that in
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: 10 years, 15 years, maybe he'll be evaluated again. But
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: I'm guessing that is what they're going to go for.
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: They have the Karen Reid famed former attorney. And I
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: think that there are some definite valid points that he
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: was absolutely not in his right state of mind and was,
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  Speaker 2: in fact, insane when he committed these crimes. So there
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: we go. Okay, switching gears to some light fun, a
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: little update on Real Housewife of Beverly Hills. Well, finally,
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  Speaker 2: Kyle has come even more clean than she did before
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  Speaker 2: about her former relationship with this person, doesn't say Morgan Wade,
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: and that they had this speed dating kind of a
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: party that Bose throws, which was very reminiscent, of Patty
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: Stanger's Million Dollar Matchmaker. To one point, Bose goes, just
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: reminding you guys, you're halfway through your conversation. Like, I
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: remember those type of things. And one of my friends
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: was there, Ben Gleave, comedian, and I was like, how
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: the heck did this happen? I do believe he was
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: single at the time, so that part was real. It
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: doesn't seem like there was any great matchmaking. But it
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: was pretty fun, and they are all single, except for
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: Bose and this new girl, Amanda, who is a Money
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: Manifestation Life Coach for Women and has a book, Rich AF.
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: And I find her likable. I think she's like positive
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: and everything, but she starts to tell Dorit, you know,
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  Speaker 2: what she should be doing as she's going through this
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  Speaker 2: divorce with PK and she doesn't know where the money
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: is and she doesn't know what's going on with their retirement.
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: And Bo's, being the businesswoman that she is, is like, well,
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  Speaker 2: your job is to help women with finances. What do
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  Speaker 2: you think she should do, Amanda, since you're like the
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: life coach of finances? And she's like, well, I think
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  Speaker 2: the biggest thing that you need to do to figure out, Dorit, yes,
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  Speaker 2: I'd have to figure out a lot of things. PK
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  Speaker 2: is one minute he's paying the mortgage, the next he's not.
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  Speaker 2: And it's very confusing. And I don't know, but my
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  Speaker 2: name is on everything, but I don't know where all
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  Speaker 2: those accounts are. And then Boza's like, so Amanda, like,
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  Speaker 2: what's the next thing she should do? Well, the next
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  Speaker 2: thing that you should do is you need to manifest
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  Speaker 2: where you want to see yourself financially after PK. Who
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  Speaker 2: is Dorit in a year? That's what you need to do.
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: And Boza's like, I mean, Boza's BS meter was just off.
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  Speaker 2: You know, Amanda did nothing wrong. What she's saying is
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  Speaker 2: good advice, but it just isn't. Real financial advice. There
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: wasn't anything like, okay, this is first what you need
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  Speaker 2: to do is you need to get a letter from
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: your attorney stating that you need to do this. Then
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: you need to get a forensic accountant and you have
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: to do it an international one. And I actually have
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: a great one I can recommend. Like something like that's
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: what Bose was wanting like an answer. But it's very,
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: very entertaining and juicy at that. Oh, and then that's
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: when Kyle goes, I might go Brad, I might go Angelina. So,
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: you know, I will see. My prediction is Kyle ends
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: up dating a man next. And that's just my prediction,
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: but we'll see. Then we hop over to Real Housewives
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: of Salt Lake City, which was really fun. They're in Greece.
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: And to just continue with the lesbian housewife theme, they ask, oh,
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  Speaker 2: have you ever kissed a girl? And Bronwyn is like,
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  Speaker 2: I have. I have kissed a girl and I've enjoyed it.
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: And they're like, how many? She's like, more than one.
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  Speaker 2: And she's like, oh, well, have you done more than kissing?
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: I may have. And then Brittany is like, well, I
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: know how many guys I've kissed. And they're like, how many?
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: She's like, 67. So I was like, okay, so this
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  Speaker 2: like 45-year-old woman has been like keeping a log of
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: everyone that she's hooked up with. just for kissing. And
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: I just want to say back in the day in college,
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: we had our last senior year of college in my
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: sorority house, we had a scam board, which meant kissing
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: or more. But if you kiss somebody, you would be like,
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: put the date and the name and how many people got,
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: how many people did you hook up with before the
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  Speaker 2: end of graduation? And I won. I won, and then
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  Speaker 2: I brought that scam board home to my parents' house.
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: And my dad was like, this is great. This is
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  Speaker 2: the only thing you've ever won in your life. And
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  Speaker 2: he thought it was the funniest thing. He was very
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  Speaker 2: proud of it. So I can relate to Brittany. Why
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: the heck not? But Brittany goes, where is, no, sorry.
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: Bronwyn goes, where is Whitney in this conversation of, you know,
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: kissing girls? And now listen, we are ending 2025. This
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: has been a crazy year. But what we have not
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: had in the Real Housewives franchise is a real lesbian
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: love relationship. Like not a make out in front of
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: the cameras in a jacuzzi. Not a one-time situation like
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: they had in Real Housewives of Atlanta with that guy
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: with his huge boner. I forgot his name. Not where
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  Speaker 2: a couple of them hooked up with him or whatever. No,
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  Speaker 2: I'm talking two girls are like, it's you. I'm into
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  Speaker 2: just you. And I'm not saying it's going to be
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: Bronwyn and Whitney, but I'm just saying it's something that
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  Speaker 2: hasn't happened yet. And I feel like 2026 is the
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: year that something like that might happen. When I was
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: in the Groundlings, this was a long time ago, there
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: were two girls in the Sunday show that came in
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: straight and went out gay. And I was like, oh,
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: that's pretty cool. Also, Remember when I was talking with
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: Chris last Thursday about those really funny VHS dating tapes
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: and if they're real or not. And I said, it
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: reminds me of how we were taught to do funny
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: characters for the groundlings and how you do a backstory
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: and everything. So my girl, friend of the show, Emmy
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: award winning, uh, comedic actress, the mom on Goldberg's Wendy, um,
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: McClendon Covey, my friend, she loves to listen to Juicy Scoop,
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: even when she's not on it. And she said, she
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: left me a voice message and she said, Heather, you're right.
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: They are all people from the Groundlings. I know them.
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: They're comedic actors. You're completely right. It was the Groundlings people.
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  Speaker 2: And I'm like, wow. you know, sometimes it's just amazing
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: to be right all the time. It's just sometimes just
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: chilling for everybody involved. Okay, getting before we get to
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: our interview, I did want to do a little update.
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: For those of you that are subscribed and enjoying Juicy Crimes,
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: thank you so much. We love doing it. And there's
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: a little update on the juicy crime from last week.
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: Brian Walshie was convicted of killing his wife who went missing.
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: Last she was seen was New Year's Eve two years ago.
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: He was convicted and he got life. So there was
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: a little update there. And before we get into our
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: Scientology episode with Jenna Miscavige, I wanted to say there
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: was a really weird story that came out that Riley Kino,
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: who is the, let me see, yes, she would be
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: the granddaughter of Elvis, daughter and granddaughter of Priscilla Presley,
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: and she's a really good actress. She's like 36 or 38.
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: There was some weird lawsuit filed, and within the lawsuit
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: that was like basically like managers suing her for some
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: money thing, it was revealed that she in fact donated
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: her eggs to to John Travolta and his now late
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: wife when they had their child who was now 13,
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: that she's the biological mother of that child. It was
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: so weird. She has since denied it. I don't even know.
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: I tried to read the article. I didn't know why
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: that was even brought up. But, you know, for a
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: day or so, I was like, if this is real,
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: that is so interesting. And if that had anything to
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: do with the Scientology world. When you listen to this
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: interview right now, it's very interesting how they, according to Jenna,
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: who was raised in it, how they see parental relationships
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: and procreation and all of it. So I hope you
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: have a great Christmas. And during the holiday, we will
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: be dropping fresh and new content and episodes only on Patreon.
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: So make sure that you're part of Patreon. You go
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: to HeatherMcDonald.net. Click on Patreon, join it, change your life,
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: and get ready for the new year. Please welcome my
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: guest now. Thank you. Well, I'm very excited to talk
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: to our guest because Scientology is something that we have
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: been fascinated about, especially on Juicy Scoop for years. And
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: today's my guest really knows everything about it. Welcome, Jenna Miscavige.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: And did I say it wrong again? Miscavige. No, Miscavige.
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: Miscavige.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was like savage. Jenna Miscavige, you have shared
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  Speaker 2: a lot about your life. You have written a book.
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  Speaker 2: And let's just really start from the beginning of this
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: journey that you've had. What was your family's history with
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: the religion?
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  Speaker 4: So both of my parents got into Scientology as kids.
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: Their parents became involved. And then So by the time
• 13:13
  Speaker 4: I came along, they were already Scientologists, but there's different
• 13:17
  Speaker 4: levels of Scientology. And so just before I turned two,
• 13:21
  Speaker 4: they joined Scientology's like most dedicated military-esque group called the
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: Sea Organization, Sea Org. And it's just basically where people
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: wear military uniforms. They have ranks and they live communally.
• 13:38
  Speaker 4: They eat communally. and you sign 1 billion year contracts,
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: dedicating your soul lifetime after lifetime to Scientology. And, you know,
• 13:48
  Speaker 4: there's just like, like, you're not allowed to have sex
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: before you're married. You're actually not allowed to have kids that, um,
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  Speaker 4: they already had me. And previously you were allowed to
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: have kids in this group, but then shortly after that
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: rule changed. And so you work like a hundred hour
• 14:04
  Speaker 4: weeks with little to no time off. And, um, Yeah,
• 14:08
  Speaker 4: basically you make 50 bucks a week. So you dedicate
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  Speaker 4: your whole life, your whole being to this organization.
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  Speaker 2: So when you were two, approximately what year was this?
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  Speaker 5: 1986.
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: So were they on the actual ship working on the
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: ship or what were they doing?
• 14:28
  Speaker 4: So it was not actually a ship, but previously like
• 14:31
  Speaker 4: the Sea Org was created on an actual ship. They
• 14:34
  Speaker 4: just had moved to land. So that's why it was
• 14:36
  Speaker 4: called the Sea Org. And this was in LA.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: Oh, so this is all in LA. So they didn't
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: want them. They didn't want these people at this level
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: where they're just working, you know, almost like indentured slavery
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: to have kids because then, because then someone would have
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: to take care of the kids that would take away
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: from them dedicating so many work hours. So how did
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: it work? Like, where did you guys live and who
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: did take care of you?
• 15:04
  Speaker 4: So it was not only that somebody would have to
• 15:06
  Speaker 4: take care of us, but I think it was also
• 15:08
  Speaker 4: seen as a distraction to our parents. And also like
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: maybe an alternate place of loyalty, you know, that wasn't
• 15:16
  Speaker 4: just to Scientology. But so when my parents were at
• 15:19
  Speaker 4: work during the day, up until I was six, I
• 15:22
  Speaker 4: would like go to this nursery where we would just like,
• 15:26
  Speaker 4: I don't know, they would teach us stuff and we
• 15:28
  Speaker 4: would learn like ABCs at first. But we, our parents
• 15:33
  Speaker 4: would come, at first they would come home for about
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: an hour. Like we would meet them at the apartment
• 15:38
  Speaker 4: for about an hour and then go back to work.
• 15:40
  Speaker 4: And then they would come home at night. So we
• 15:42
  Speaker 4: only saw them for like an hour a day, really.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: And what kind of work were they doing?
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: So my mom was in a department where she basically like,
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: there was a cruise ship that Scientology was building where
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: they could do like special Scientology counseling on there. And
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: so she was like getting the money raised for this
• 16:04
  Speaker 4: from Scientologists. She was literally like doing the space plans,
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: the architecture work. She was like getting that done. In fact,
• 16:12
  Speaker 4: she actually left like before I was four to go
• 16:15
  Speaker 4: do that. So I was just with my dad. And
• 16:18
  Speaker 4: my dad worked in their computer department where, you know,
• 16:22
  Speaker 4: it's kind of like IT, but it's like they have
• 16:25
  Speaker 4: their own internal computer system. So that's where he worked
• 16:27
  Speaker 4: at that time.
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: And were you an only child?
• 16:31
  Speaker 4: No, I had a brother. I actually have two brothers,
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: but my one, they were twins and my mom took
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: one brother and the dad took the other brother. It's
• 16:41
  Speaker 4: all fucked up and weird.
• 16:44
  Speaker 5: One reward.
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: Endless choice. Skip the hassle.
• 16:46
  Speaker 5: Reward the easy way.
• 17:11
  Speaker 6: I'm Darman, and this is What Happens Next. Each week
• 17:14
  Speaker 6: on the show, I sit down with extraordinary people who
• 17:17
  Speaker 6: have faced tremendous setbacks, and yet somehow have found a
• 17:21
  Speaker 6: way to turn them into their greatest strengths.
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: Life is one long lesson of chaos.
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: I'm heading to the Emmys, and I have police complaints
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: filed against me.
• 17:31
  Speaker 5: When your free will was about to be taken from you,
• 17:33
  Speaker 5: what would you do if it was given back?
• 17:35
  Speaker 6: Where did that need come from, where you thought that
• 17:38
  Speaker 6: you had to succeed in order to feel loved?
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: He said, I have a work dad.
• 17:42
  Speaker 6: I need a home dad. What happens next?
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: When I came in, he started crying.
• 17:46
  Speaker 6: Everybody in life encounters hardships. What defines them is not
• 17:50
  Speaker 6: those hard moments that they go through. It's about what
• 17:53
  Speaker 6: happens next.
• 17:54
  Speaker 4: I decided to risk it all.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: I realized how valuable every day was. You're worth the work.
• 17:58
  Speaker 5: Listen, Dara, I'm not going to pull punches.
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: You can use your voice even if it's shaped.
• 18:02
  Speaker 6: The stories are different, but the impact is the same.
• 18:06
  Speaker 6: Only one question matters. What happens next?
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  Speaker 2: Wait, when did that happen? So, so let's, okay. So
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: now you're like, so when you're, are you the oldest
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: or younger? Younger.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah. They're eight years older than me.
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  Speaker 2: Okay. So when, so you're born, the boys are, they,
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: they join the weird, so are they going, they're not
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: going to regular school. They're going to regular school at eight.
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  Speaker 4: No, they're not.
• 18:36
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: They're going to like Scientology school place in LA. Like
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: not even a school. It's just like, it's like a
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: place where you work and do school a little bit.
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: So then when did your parents split up?
• 18:51
  Speaker 4: Oh no, sorry. They're my mom's kids from a previous
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: marriage before I was even born. So my parents, my
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: parents split up a few years ago.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: Oh, well then when you said the twins, one took one,
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: one took, I'm confused then.
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 19:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah. I know.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: Oh, so you only had one living with you.
• 19:12
  Speaker 4: Yes, exactly.
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: And she never saw the other one?
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: She did when we were in L.A. She did, but
• 19:18
  Speaker 4: it was like his mom and dad were his mom
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: and dad, and my mom and dad were the other
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: one's mom and dad.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: And did the first husband, was he involved in Scientology? Yes.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: And his wife. So they still were Scientologists, even though... Yes, definitely.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: And did the boys, so would the brothers, the twins,
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: see each other and... and play with each other and stuff?
• 19:44
  Speaker 4: They did when we were in LA, but before that,
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: you know, there were several years where they didn't. But yeah,
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: when they were back in LA, it was like they
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: were brothers again. And it was like I was like
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: meeting this new brother that I never even knew about.
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: And were they identical?
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: No, they don't even look like brothers.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: Oh, that is so crazy. Yeah. What is their relationship like?
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: like now?
• 20:11
  Speaker 4: To each other?
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: I think they get along great now.
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: And are they still Scientologists?
• 20:17
  Speaker 4: No, they're not in Scientology, no. Okay, so let's- My
• 20:20
  Speaker 4: immediate family's all out of Scientology.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: Okay, so let's go back to, okay, so now you're
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: a little girl, they're working these crazy hours, you go
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: to this little Scientology school, and okay, then where are
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: we in life?
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: So when I turn six, I go to basically like
• 20:39
  Speaker 4: Hemet in Riverside. And I get put at this Scientology
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: boarding school where it's like 15 minutes away from where
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: my parents work. But now I live there. I live
• 20:51
  Speaker 4: in like a dorm with seven other girls. It's connected
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: to a bath, like one bathroom, then seven other girls. And,
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: you know, we wear uniforms. We're all divided into like
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: units and we like salute. Like, you know, every morning
• 21:05
  Speaker 4: when we wake up, we go to a muster and
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: it's like, Unit one report, all present and accounted for, sir.
• 21:11
  Speaker 4: And so basically like 30 hours a week, we're doing
• 21:13
  Speaker 4: like manual labor, like grounds work, whether it's rock hauling, gardening,
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: planting trees, painting, all that sort of thing. And then
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: after lunch, we are doing, like we're doing studies, but
• 21:28
  Speaker 4: we don't have grades. It's just like kids who are
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: like six years old to 16 years old, all in
• 21:33
  Speaker 4: the same classroom. And we're doing these like self-led reports
• 21:36
  Speaker 4: things where we like check off a list. It's called
• 21:39
  Speaker 4: the check sheet. We check off each thing we do.
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: And then in the evening we're doing Scientology studies. So,
• 21:45
  Speaker 4: you know, we're up at 6 30 AM and then
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: our studies end at 9 PM.
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: You know, I've always really been fascinated about the weird
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: education of it because when I've talked to people and stuff,
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: I'm like, you know, as much as we say Scientology is,
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: you know, weird and strange. the people that come out
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: of it, whether it's Leah Remini, that's good actress, good writer,
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: you know, good vocabulary, good communicator. They, they're able to
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: have businesses, you know, and it makes, and, and work.
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: And it makes you wonder like, well, is traditional education
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: like really that important if you can communicate and read
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: and write? Like, you know, I mean, did you learn algebra?
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: You know, all the things that we're required to, learn
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: in regular school that we do say, do we need algebra?
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: Do we even need to learn a second language with
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: Google Translate and things like that? So I'm kind of like,
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: I do think it's strange and weird that you didn't
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: have the experience of being a cheerleader or doing a sport.
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: But the education part doesn't seem... What do you think?
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: Do you think it's like the.
• 22:59
  Speaker 4: No, I hear what you're saying. And I, and I
• 23:01
  Speaker 4: can totally, like, I totally get it. I, in Scientology,
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: we were very much like, um, very literate. Like we were,
• 23:09
  Speaker 4: we were taught to read a lot and to look
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: up the meanings of words obsessively. The problem really comes
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: when like, I was isolated from the whole world. Like
• 23:18
  Speaker 4: I was in this, so I didn't know about like civics.
• 23:22
  Speaker 4: I didn't know any of my rights. I, so like.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: No history, no like American history or.
• 23:28
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Exactly.
• 23:29
  Speaker 4: So, you know, everything that Scientology taught me was all
• 23:33
  Speaker 4: I ever had access to.
• 23:36
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 23:36
  Speaker 4: So on one hand, yes, very literate. On the other hand,
• 23:39
  Speaker 4: I was like a weirdo.
• 23:42
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: And was afraid of people.
• 23:45
  Speaker 4: And, you know, beyond just the education part of school,
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: I mean, we didn't learn things like science and physics
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: or even about our bodies. Like, what parts do what
• 23:58
  Speaker 4: and that sort of thing. And so like later coming
• 24:01
  Speaker 4: out of Scientology, becoming a mom and other things, like
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: you don't really know anything. So things like that, especially
• 24:09
  Speaker 4: when you're taught that you're not a body, you're a
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: spiritual being and your body is like a piece of
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: meat that you basically, when that body dies, you're going
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: to get a new one. So it's all sort of
• 24:19
  Speaker 4: like part of devaluing who you are as like a
• 24:22
  Speaker 4: person and taking care of yourself And so it winds
• 24:26
  Speaker 4: up being okay if you work as a slave for
• 24:29
  Speaker 4: hundreds of hours because you don't really know anything about
• 24:32
  Speaker 4: yourself or the world.
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: Yes, you guys could read it right. You're good communicators.
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: But that because they wanted you to live this world
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: of this is all there is, then you didn't really
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: know about American history or science or anything, which that
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: is so crazy.
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 24:52
  Speaker 4: Or civics, like I didn't know anything about our government
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: or my rights. I didn't know what was a wrong
• 25:01
  Speaker 4: way to be treated, what was the right way. Because remember,
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: at the same time, it's not like we're living in
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: a home with our parents. So it's not like we're
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: getting that information from anywhere else. We're at this ranch
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: seven days a week. Well, one day we do go
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: to our parents' apartment and they come home at midnight
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: and then we're leaving their apartment again by like 11 a.m.
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: the next morning.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: Did you feel like you even like had a mom
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: or knew who she was or anything?
• 25:28
  Speaker 4: I did, but I constantly missed my parents. Like I
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: constantly was, especially when I was younger later on, I
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: just kind of got used to it. I think that
• 25:38
  Speaker 4: when you live a life with your mom and your
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: dad and then it gets taken away, it's a lot
• 25:43
  Speaker 4: different than when you just don't have them around. I
• 25:46
  Speaker 4: think that you know what you're missing when that happens
• 25:49
  Speaker 4: and it's a lot. sadder where I think that, um,
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: in my case, I just didn't have it. So it's,
• 25:56
  Speaker 4: it sucked. I felt this like yearning and I like
• 25:59
  Speaker 4: wanted to be with them. And my goal was if
• 26:01
  Speaker 4: I finished all my studies at this boarding school, then
• 26:04
  Speaker 4: I could work at the base with them. And so
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: that was always my goal was to get to the
• 26:08
  Speaker 4: base so I could see them every day. Um, so yeah,
• 26:12
  Speaker 4: I definitely miss them. And I felt like I knew
• 26:16
  Speaker 4: them just as much as I knew anybody, anybody else really.
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: And so did you guys like have celebrate like Thanksgiving
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: or Christmas or anything like that?
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: So like on Thanksgiving, we would have like a little
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: bit longer of a meal at the at the boarding school.
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: And that was pretty much it. At Christmas, we would
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: do a little bit more like we would go to
• 26:40
  Speaker 4: the base where our parents were and there would be
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: like a show. And then we would usually have one
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: day off. That was when I was a kid. Later on,
• 26:47
  Speaker 4: like it would be like Christmas would get canceled. Because
• 26:50
  Speaker 4: like everyone was in trouble. Nobody was doing good enough.
• 26:54
  Speaker 4: But yeah, when I was a kid, we did have Christmas.
• 26:56
  Speaker 4: We would have like a day off together.
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: So Christmas would be canceled even at the boarding school
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: or whatever?
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: Well, I left the boarding school when I was 12.
• 27:05
  Speaker 4: So it would be past when I was 12 when
• 27:08
  Speaker 4: I was like a regular Scientology worker from when I
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: was 12 until I was 22. And that's kind of
• 27:13
  Speaker 4: the time when Christmas would get canceled.
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: And so did you even know what Christmas was celebrating? Like,
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: did you understand what Christianity was or?
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: I knew it was a religion, but I mostly thought
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: of it like Christmas was just a celebration that we got.
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: And I was like, do not be questioning this. You
• 27:33
  Speaker 4: take what you get. This is the highlight of your year.
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: Oh, my God. And so so now you're 12. And
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: now you're just like working. And what's your job at 12?
• 27:48
  Speaker 4: So when I'm 12, I get sent to Clearwater, Florida.
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: And I have like a few jobs. So part of
• 27:56
  Speaker 4: the time I'm just doing Scientology studies all the time.
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: Like I'm learning even how to use their like e-meter.
• 28:01
  Speaker 4: I don't know if you've seen that. Oh, yeah.
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: That's like the eye detector looking thing. Yeah.
• 28:07
  Speaker 4: I have one somewhere around here. So I'm like learning
• 28:10
  Speaker 4: how to do that.
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: And what is that really? Is it just, I mean, it's,
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: is it just like, yeah, you're somehow it just tied
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: up to your nerves. And so if you get nervous,
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: like a lie detector, you could say you're not telling
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: the truth to somebody or what?
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: So basically it sends like the tiniest current, like you're
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: holding two cans. So like, and the cans are attached
• 28:29
  Speaker 4: to the e-meter. So it sends a current like through
• 28:31
  Speaker 4: your body out through the other hand back into the e-meter.
• 28:35
  Speaker 4: And it's just, if there's a, if there's an interruption
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: in this current, whether it's from body movement or, you
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: getting tense or something, it shows up on the e-meter dial.
• 28:46
  Speaker 4: And that's just, they're interpreting it to mean that that
• 28:51
  Speaker 4: e-meter reaction, that needle reaction is from your mind. They
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: believe that your mind influences the current that's going through
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: your body. And so when they ask a question and
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: it influences the current, they're like, ah, we've got you.
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: What are you thinking about?
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: So like at this time, like I just, I remember
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: seeing the Dianetics commercials everywhere. 1 billion books sold. And
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: it was like earth exploding. And as a little kid,
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: I first thought it was a diet book. Dianetics, like
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: a diet book. And then I was always just like, yeah,
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: what is this? It was just like, oh, how people
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: create such a better life for themselves. And now that
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: we've learned more, it's like that whole, what was that book?
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: It was just it was just the history of Scientology
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: and how to make your life better. And, and did
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: they really, they really didn't sell a billion books, right?
• 29:47
  Speaker 4: Well, when they forced Scientologists to buy them over and
• 29:49
  Speaker 4: over again.
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: Oh, okay.
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: So, and also, or when they just like give them
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: away or cause they have their own printing presses, they can.
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: So I think they say that's how many are printed.
• 29:59
  Speaker 4: So they have their own printing presses. They can print
• 30:01
  Speaker 4: however fucking many books they want to. But Scientology actually,
• 30:06
  Speaker 4: I mean, sorry, Dianetics was before Scientology existed. And it
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: was basically about how certain illnesses or certain bad things
• 30:17
  Speaker 4: you had gone, fears or whatever. It basically taught people
• 30:22
  Speaker 4: that it was because of painful incidents that had happened
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: in the past. Specifically, things that were said during those
• 30:30
  Speaker 4: painful moments of unconsciousness and that those past things were controlling,
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: were making you sick now. But basically, Dianetics then turned
• 30:41
  Speaker 4: into Scientology when basically they would have people recall these
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: moments of pain and unconsciousness and then they would recall
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: things from a past life. So then it became you
• 30:53
  Speaker 4: were a spirit because if you had a past life,
• 30:55
  Speaker 4: you had to have, you know, you had to be
• 30:57
  Speaker 4: a spiritual being. And then that's where it sort of
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: started going into a religion and psychology then grew from
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: there into what it is now. So Dianetics is like
• 31:07
  Speaker 4: their book one. That's what they call it.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: And so how is David your uncle?
• 31:15
  Speaker 4: He's my dad's brother.
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: Okay. And how, so tell me how that came where he,
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: he got to be the head of the church.
• 31:26
  Speaker 4: So I was really little when this all happened, like two.
• 31:29
  Speaker 4: So I wasn't any part of it. But from what
• 31:32
  Speaker 4: I understand, L. Ron Hubbard died. And there was a
• 31:36
  Speaker 4: dude who was like working with him a couple and
• 31:39
  Speaker 4: they were sort of all like set to be in charge.
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: And my uncle like outmaneuvered them and like. tricked people
• 31:46
  Speaker 4: and he became the boss because he went for it
• 31:49
  Speaker 4: pretty much. I don't know. I don't know all the specifics.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: But then did that also elevate your dad's position being
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: that they were brothers?
• 31:59
  Speaker 4: Well, my dad had only just come back into Scientology
• 32:03
  Speaker 4: at that time. Like he'd grown up in it, but
• 32:06
  Speaker 4: he came back into the Sea Org. So yeah, I
• 32:08
  Speaker 4: guess at that point, like my dad did become a
• 32:10
  Speaker 4: senior executive. So did my mom, but And so, yes,
• 32:15
  Speaker 4: it was. But it wasn't like an automatic promotion. Like
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: in Scientology, they don't really care about your family. They
• 32:20
  Speaker 4: think that you're all spiritual beings. So it wasn't an
• 32:24
  Speaker 4: automatic promotion. It was also like they were the people
• 32:27
  Speaker 4: who had grown up with and worked with my uncle.
• 32:29
  Speaker 4: So it's almost like he's putting his confidants or friends
• 32:33
  Speaker 4: or like high school buddies in charge as well.
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: And OK, so now you're like 12 working and all that.
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: And were you, what was your relationship with like, so
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: you're in near like the, the LA Hollywood scene when
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: that starts to kind of become more popular, like in
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: the nineties and stuff with like a Christy Alley and
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: John Travolta, Christy Alley, Christy Alley, John Travolta. All those,
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: Jenna Elfman, like all those people, where are you in
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: that world? You're still in Florida and they're here or
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: what's happening?
• 33:15
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 33:15
  Speaker 4: So I was in Florida and those people are mostly
• 33:19
  Speaker 4: in LA, but there actually are. So in Florida and Clearwater, Florida,
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: there's Scientology's biggest base. People go there to get the
• 33:26
  Speaker 4: highest level of Scientology training and counseling. So I often
• 33:31
  Speaker 4: saw Jenna Elfman, Kirstie Alley, John Travolta there as well.
• 33:36
  Speaker 4: But they were sort of going back and forth because
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: in L.A. there's the Celebrity Center.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: Right. And then like so what were you guys told
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: like of the outlet? Like how do you think now
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: that this was ever even allowed that kids would be
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: able to not go to school and not work? But
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: I guess because it's almost like a Catholic school, like
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: because it's a religion and it's, you know, like a
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: nonprofit religion, whatever it is. Or it is a prophet religion.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: I don't know. The fact that religion is not regulated
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: for taxes. So they were able to do that and
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: they were able to have their own schools and no
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: one was checking on the kids.
• 34:19
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: Like they're able to say, like in a private school, well,
• 34:25
  Speaker 4: you basically, there's no oversight on the curriculum. There's very
• 34:29
  Speaker 4: few requirements. So they could say, even when we were
• 34:31
  Speaker 4: doing Scientology studies, that that's our schooling. When in fact,
• 34:34
  Speaker 4: we did go to a like place that where we
• 34:38
  Speaker 4: did regular schooling one day a week, but that was it.
• 34:41
  Speaker 4: And again, it wasn't regular schooling. It was, there were
• 34:44
  Speaker 4: no grades. We were on the check sheets again. So self-led, but,
• 34:50
  Speaker 4: but we did like, that was some educational thing that
• 34:53
  Speaker 4: we did, but yeah, there was just no oversight. Like
• 34:56
  Speaker 4: none of us got diplomas.
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: And were you ever like part of like the recruiting
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: side of like getting people to join?
• 35:04
  Speaker 4: No, I wasn't.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: And so, so then, okay, so now you're like, your
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: teen years are spent there. You're, you're, are you in
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: the same, are your parents still in LA? Are you?
• 35:16
  Speaker 4: My parents are back in Riverside and Hemet. So the
• 35:20
  Speaker 4: whole time from when I'm 12 until I'm 16, I
• 35:23
  Speaker 4: pretty much like I see them once or twice and
• 35:26
  Speaker 4: that's it. In fact, I'm forbidden to call them by
• 35:29
  Speaker 4: my aunt, Shelly Miscavige, um, because she's Like I said before,
• 35:34
  Speaker 4: like they kind of consider the the child parent relationship
• 35:37
  Speaker 4: like a distraction, especially if you're a member of their
• 35:40
  Speaker 4: most dedicated group. So it's seen as you like putting
• 35:44
  Speaker 4: over importance on the family instead of the group. And
• 35:47
  Speaker 4: so I wasn't allowed to call them. And in fact,
• 35:51
  Speaker 4: several times when I tried, I was physically restrained from
• 35:54
  Speaker 4: doing so.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: They were just like you mean you try to grab
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: the phone and they would like say no.
• 36:01
  Speaker 4: They would say no, and then I would try to
• 36:02
  Speaker 4: grab the phone again, and then one person would grab
• 36:05
  Speaker 4: each arm and a leg, and I would be like
• 36:07
  Speaker 4: fighting to get to the phone, and they wouldn't let me.
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: And so then at 16, where do you go off to?
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: So at 16, out of nowhere, when I was still
• 36:21
  Speaker 4: in Clearwater, I was picked out of my day, and
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: I started getting these interrogations on the e-meter. for like
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: nine hours a day. And it was from this like
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: really important boss lady who was terrifying. And, you know,
• 36:34
  Speaker 4: she was asking me all sorts of weird questions like,
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: you know, do you have evil intentions against your uncle?
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: All of this stuff. And then they basically had me
• 36:44
  Speaker 4: be in a room all day when I wasn't getting
• 36:47
  Speaker 4: these interrogations where I was supposed to like listen to
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: these lectures. And then when I wasn't doing that, I
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: had to scrub the bathroom. And somebody would be watching
• 36:56
  Speaker 4: me all the time in case I tried to escape.
• 36:58
  Speaker 4: So there was someone with me at all time. I
• 37:00
  Speaker 4: had no idea why. And basically after like a month
• 37:06
  Speaker 4: or more of this, and also by the way, someone
• 37:09
  Speaker 4: would sit outside my door while I was sleeping to
• 37:11
  Speaker 4: make sure I didn't escape. I didn't even have anyone
• 37:14
  Speaker 4: to call if I wanted to escape. I was terrified
• 37:16
  Speaker 4: of the outside world. I wasn't going anywhere. But then
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: they brought me to LA. They told me that my
• 37:22
  Speaker 4: parents had left the most dedicated group. that they were
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: now living in Mexico and they wanted them to go
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: to Mexico because they didn't want the press to get
• 37:33
  Speaker 4: ahold of the story that they had left. And so
• 37:36
  Speaker 4: they had set them up there and then that they
• 37:39
  Speaker 4: wanted me to go with them.
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: And so they had left the religion.
• 37:44
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: But you had no idea because you weren't communicating with them. Yes.
• 37:49
  Speaker 4: I had no idea. Exactly. Yeah. So two dudes were
• 37:52
  Speaker 4: like telling me this after I got flown to L.A.,
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: And they were like, your parents are gone.
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: And so then do you reconnect in Mexico?
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: Nope.
• 38:03
  Speaker 4: I said, well, I barely know these people now. I've
• 38:07
  Speaker 4: been away from them my whole life. I have all
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: of these friends that I've made, this whole, like, all
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: of these people that I care about. Yeah, that's my
• 38:18
  Speaker 4: world now. And I've already been ripped away from my
• 38:21
  Speaker 4: world previously in California to go to Florida. And now
• 38:24
  Speaker 4: you're trying to, ripped me away from it. Also in Scientology,
• 38:27
  Speaker 4: they teach you that if you go to, well, I
• 38:28
  Speaker 4: was way behind in school. So the idea of me
• 38:31
  Speaker 4: going to a regular school was terrifying.
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 38:34
  Speaker 4: Not only that, they teach you in Scientology, like in Scientology,
• 38:37
  Speaker 4: the big enemies are the psychs, the psychiatrists, and they
• 38:40
  Speaker 4: teach you that they like drug you and they like lobotomize.
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: You and stuff.
• 38:44
  Speaker 4: And so I was like, I ain't going to a
• 38:46
  Speaker 4: regular school where they're going to lobotomize me and like, whatever.
• 38:50
  Speaker 4: So the whole thing, like I was afraid of the
• 38:52
  Speaker 4: outside world. I had like no contact with people who
• 38:56
  Speaker 4: weren't Scientologists at all. We called non-Scientologists wogs and it
• 39:05
  Speaker 4: was like muggles. So it was like, yeah, I was,
• 39:08
  Speaker 4: and we were, we were like, I was always told
• 39:10
  Speaker 4: that we had to tell them a certain story. Like
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: I was a student and I never understood why we
• 39:14
  Speaker 4: had to lie. So I was just afraid of them.
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: And so going into the outside world with my parents,
• 39:19
  Speaker 4: who at this point I had spent no time with,
• 39:22
  Speaker 4: leaving everyone behind to a school where I was essentially
• 39:25
  Speaker 4: going to get drugged and lobotomized. I was like, hell no,
• 39:28
  Speaker 4: I'm staying here.
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: And when, why did your parents leave? Do you ever
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: connect with them? And did they tell you what, what
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: was their reason for finally getting out?
• 39:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure. I mean, the things that were going
• 39:43
  Speaker 4: on at the base where they were at, I mean,
• 39:46
  Speaker 4: my uncle Dave was beating people. He was like, keeping
• 39:50
  Speaker 4: people in a trailer, making them sleep overnight on the floor, uh,
• 39:55
  Speaker 4: making people stand in trash cans while, uh, people threw
• 39:59
  Speaker 4: stuff at them and, um, like, yeah, just regular beatings
• 40:04
  Speaker 4: and psychological torture. And they were just like, I'm not
• 40:07
  Speaker 4: doing this anymore. I'm out. This is, this is insane.
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: And so they decided to leave.
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: And then when they went to Mexico, I mean, did
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: they have like, yeah, that's why I always think of
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: when you When you defect it, then you have, how
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: do you even start like a career or a business?
• 40:27
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 40:27
  Speaker 4: That's what's really hard. When you don't have an education,
• 40:30
  Speaker 4: first of all, you don't have any connections outside of
• 40:33
  Speaker 4: Scientology because everyone you know is in Scientology. I mean,
• 40:36
  Speaker 4: being on Mexico is another level, but I guess maybe
• 40:39
  Speaker 4: it's easier if you're like white in Mexico and American,
• 40:43
  Speaker 4: but they basically sold timeshares at that time.
• 40:47
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 40:47
  Speaker 4: And then they eventually moved back to the to the
• 40:50
  Speaker 4: US and got their real estate license. I mean, all
• 40:53
  Speaker 4: of these things, when you leave Scientology, you lose those connections,
• 40:56
  Speaker 4: no education, et cetera. Those are all setbacks. But one
• 40:59
  Speaker 4: thing you're used to doing in Scientology is working your
• 41:02
  Speaker 4: ass off.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: So like nobody else in the world. So usually people
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: who leave Scientology in this way, in this group are
• 41:11
  Speaker 4: very hard workers. But that being said, like you kind
• 41:14
  Speaker 4: of maybe burn out at some point if you've been
• 41:16
  Speaker 4: working since.
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: You're six years old. So, so, so now you're 16,
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: you're back in LA, you have no relationship with your parents.
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: They are, you know, seen as the enemy. Then what
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: is going on with you? Like, where are you living then?
• 41:32
  Speaker 4: So I'm living on Hollywood Boulevard. I don't know if
• 41:35
  Speaker 4: you see that information center or their testing center where
• 41:39
  Speaker 4: people sort of, that's where I lived on the top floor.
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 41:43
  Speaker 4: And yeah, that was after about another like basically, so
• 41:48
  Speaker 4: now I wasn't allowed to answer the phone at all.
• 41:49
  Speaker 4: I wasn't allowed to receive any letters from my parents
• 41:52
  Speaker 4: or anything like that. And yeah, I worked there. I mean,
• 41:57
  Speaker 4: I wound up leaving when I was 22, but things
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: just gradually became worse and worse. And one of the
• 42:06
  Speaker 4: big things that happened is that I had sex before
• 42:09
  Speaker 4: I was married. And that, if you do that, you
• 42:11
  Speaker 4: basically get assigned, well, normally you get assigned to what
• 42:15
  Speaker 4: they call The Rehabilitation Project Force, which is basically a
• 42:21
  Speaker 4: program where you are all black. You're not allowed to
• 42:23
  Speaker 4: speak unless spoken to. You have to run everywhere you go.
• 42:26
  Speaker 4: You're basically ostracized and you do heavy manual labor all
• 42:31
  Speaker 4: day and you do five hours of interrogation, like basically confessions.
• 42:37
  Speaker 4: And people stay on this program for like nine years sometimes.
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: And what about the guy that you had sex with?
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: Was he also banished to this group?
• 42:46
  Speaker 4: Well, I didn't. So what happened is that I wanted
• 42:48
  Speaker 4: to get married, but they wouldn't let me because they
• 42:51
  Speaker 4: were afraid that my parents were going to like try
• 42:54
  Speaker 4: to like meet with this person's family. It was just
• 42:56
  Speaker 4: all paranoia. They were going to meet with this person's
• 42:58
  Speaker 4: family and they were going to conspire to take down Scientology.
• 43:02
  Speaker 4: And so they wouldn't let me get married. And so
• 43:05
  Speaker 4: that's when I wound up, we wound up sleeping together
• 43:07
  Speaker 4: before we got married. But because it was kind of
• 43:09
  Speaker 4: their fault and because I was kind of really bitchy,
• 43:12
  Speaker 4: they didn't assign me to the program.
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: But now where are you guys finding time to be intimate?
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: Are you like still living in this dormitory type life
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: or do you have like your own apartment?
• 43:24
  Speaker 4: We don't have our own apartment.
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: No.
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: It was literally like there was an empty room and
• 43:29
  Speaker 4: we went in there. And there's no time. Like you
• 43:33
  Speaker 4: get home at like midnight literally and then it's like
• 43:37
  Speaker 4: you hold hands in the hallway and then everyone's like
• 43:39
  Speaker 4: giving you the side eye and like being like don't
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: touch each other. And if you like even look at
• 43:45
  Speaker 4: somebody long enough straight in the eyes like 20 people
• 43:48
  Speaker 4: will write reports on you because in Scientology they have
• 43:51
  Speaker 4: this culture where you have to write reports on each.
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: Other so still at like 22 are you able to
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: like go with your boyfriend and like walk on Hollywood
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: Boulevard and go get lunch somewhere.
• 44:02
  Speaker 4: So so this is even before I was 18 and
• 44:06
  Speaker 4: no well one day a week you are one day
• 44:09
  Speaker 4: a week we were allowed to go like down the
• 44:12
  Speaker 4: street to combos and get pizza But on a regular day,
• 44:15
  Speaker 4: absolutely not. You cannot leave the building. There's a guard
• 44:18
  Speaker 4: there the entire time. So you have to like have
• 44:21
  Speaker 4: his permission to leave and that sort of thing. Now,
• 44:24
  Speaker 4: I did walk home frequently because the building I worked
• 44:28
  Speaker 4: in was on Hollywood and Ivar. So it's just a
• 44:31
  Speaker 4: few blocks down. So we would walk home or take
• 44:34
  Speaker 4: a van home. But it wasn't like like it was
• 44:36
  Speaker 4: at midnight. It wasn't like any sort of free for
• 44:39
  Speaker 4: all or free time or anything.
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: And then what about like those big Scientology like events
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: at night, like those big fancy things that they'd have
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: that we've seen videos? Would you be like working those
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: or seeing the stars or what about those?
• 44:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so those happen. Scientology has like five or six
• 44:58
  Speaker 4: regular events that they do throughout the year. They're not
• 45:01
  Speaker 4: always at the shrine in LA. They're sometimes in different places.
• 45:05
  Speaker 4: But basically at every one of those events, they come
• 45:08
  Speaker 4: out with a new book. Like for instance, they'll come
• 45:11
  Speaker 4: out with a new edition of Dynetics that has like
• 45:14
  Speaker 4: a different sticker on the front or something like that.
• 45:17
  Speaker 4: And then basically it's our job as staff to basically
• 45:22
  Speaker 4: force the Scientology parishioners to buy these things and essentially
• 45:26
  Speaker 4: stay up all night until we make our quota. And
• 45:29
  Speaker 4: so our script would be to go to each person
• 45:31
  Speaker 4: and be like cash or credit and like try to
• 45:33
  Speaker 4: basically make everyone buy whatever is being, whatever new course
• 45:38
  Speaker 4: is being, is coming out or is being announced at
• 45:40
  Speaker 4: this event.
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: And so, okay, so then, so when do you start
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: to go, this isn't for me? Like how, when did
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: you leave?
• 45:50
  Speaker 4: I think the first time I ever started thinking this
• 45:53
  Speaker 4: wasn't for me is when I was probably like 16,
• 45:56
  Speaker 4: but it is sort of a building up. But one
• 45:59
  Speaker 4: of the main things that happened is that when I
• 46:03
  Speaker 4: was 21, I believe, maybe 20, me and my then husband,
• 46:08
  Speaker 4: because we got married when I was 18. And none
• 46:12
  Speaker 4: of our family was there or anything. It was just
• 46:14
  Speaker 4: kind of crazy. But we got sent to a mission,
• 46:17
  Speaker 4: on a mission to Australia in order to help a
• 46:20
  Speaker 4: local Scientology church get a new building to work out
• 46:26
  Speaker 4: of and to like raise money for it, et cetera.
• 46:29
  Speaker 4: And it was, you know, when we were there, it
• 46:31
  Speaker 4: was the first time I was in the regular world.
• 46:34
  Speaker 4: Like we had an apartment and we dealt with like
• 46:38
  Speaker 4: realtors and we... And one of the ladies who was
• 46:43
  Speaker 4: on staff there, it wasn't the most dedicated group. So
• 46:48
  Speaker 4: she had kids and we would kind of hang out
• 46:50
  Speaker 4: with her little daughter who was two years old. She
• 46:52
  Speaker 4: was really cute. And we would go grocery shopping. We
• 46:55
  Speaker 4: would make our own food. And I had never experienced
• 46:58
  Speaker 4: this in my life. So all of the people who
• 47:01
  Speaker 4: I once thought were terrifying and the outside world, which
• 47:04
  Speaker 4: I thought was like horrible and full of drugs and whatnot,
• 47:08
  Speaker 4: I kind of learned that it wasn't, wasn't really true.
• 47:12
  Speaker 4: It was all just like kind of made up. In fact,
• 47:14
  Speaker 4: half the people who I met didn't even know what
• 47:17
  Speaker 4: Scientology was. Cause we were always taught that Scientology was
• 47:19
  Speaker 4: like taking over the world and everybody loved it. And
• 47:23
  Speaker 4: it was like so big. And that's what we'd get
• 47:26
  Speaker 4: told at these events.
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: Oh, wow. Yeah. So you never like watch TV or like,
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: did you tell you didn't, so you didn't even see
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: like the celebrities. that were in it on their shows
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: or anything. So you were not, there's no way to
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: be like starstruck even.
• 47:44
  Speaker 4: Well, like we, if there was a Tom Cruise and
• 47:47
  Speaker 4: John Travolta movie, like they would play that at like
• 47:50
  Speaker 4: Christmas or other things. Um, but yeah, I didn't grow
• 47:55
  Speaker 4: up watching TV at all. So actually when I was
• 47:57
  Speaker 4: in Australia, it was like the first time we would
• 47:59
  Speaker 4: like watch TV, like we would watch big brother or
• 48:02
  Speaker 4: like Australian idol or whatever. Yeah.
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: OK, so then so then what happens in Australia? Do
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: you start thinking, I think there's more to this life or?
• 48:12
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think a big part of it for me
• 48:15
  Speaker 4: was like the little girl because we weren't allowed to
• 48:18
  Speaker 4: have kids. And my husband at the time, he really
• 48:21
  Speaker 4: wanted to have kids. And he always thought the rule
• 48:24
  Speaker 4: would change, which was stupid.
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: So it's a rule. Is the stories true about how
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: they would do forced abortions and stuff?
• 48:31
  Speaker 4: Yes, it's true. Yeah, I never had that. that when
• 48:34
  Speaker 4: I was in Scientology because I never got pregnant, but yeah,
• 48:38
  Speaker 4: it would be like people in the group that I
• 48:40
  Speaker 4: was in. It's not like they're holding you down and
• 48:42
  Speaker 4: forcing you to do an abortion, but they're like, yeah,
• 48:45
  Speaker 4: the right thing for you to do is get an abortion.
• 48:47
  Speaker 4: Otherwise you're going to betray the group and leave. And
• 48:51
  Speaker 4: so people would have to like, you put through like,
• 48:54
  Speaker 4: you know, different steps that they would have to do
• 48:56
  Speaker 4: to decide what's for the greatest good for the world
• 48:59
  Speaker 4: and just be like pressured and like, ostracized if they
• 49:05
  Speaker 4: didn't do that and so yeah it's absolutely true so you.
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: See this little girl and you're like I do think
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: I want to be a mom is that what was
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: happening kind.
• 49:15
  Speaker 4: Of yeah she was just like so funny and so
• 49:18
  Speaker 4: cute and we would just hang out. And I was like, hmm,
• 49:22
  Speaker 4: I was like, maybe I really am missing out on
• 49:25
  Speaker 4: something that I never thought. And it was also the
• 49:29
  Speaker 4: first time that I had kind of my own space.
• 49:31
  Speaker 4: Like I was always surrounded, you know, by everybody all
• 49:34
  Speaker 4: the time. We ate in big mess halls. I lived
• 49:36
  Speaker 4: in dorms. And it was the first time that I
• 49:38
  Speaker 4: even had like privacy to think my own thoughts without
• 49:43
  Speaker 4: being like inspected upon every day. And then we went
• 49:47
  Speaker 4: back and then it really put everything in stark contrast.
• 49:52
  Speaker 4: Like we had a little freedom and then we got
• 49:55
  Speaker 4: back and it was like even worse. Like they were
• 49:58
  Speaker 4: just treating people more and more horribly. People were expected
• 50:01
  Speaker 4: to work through the night, like nearly every single night.
• 50:05
  Speaker 4: to get to finish projects that like just wound up
• 50:08
  Speaker 4: having to be redone. It just, you know, they were
• 50:12
  Speaker 4: just doing little things to take things away from people
• 50:15
  Speaker 4: that they didn't have to. And I always thought like,
• 50:19
  Speaker 4: you know, I'd always believed in giving up certain things
• 50:21
  Speaker 4: in order to maybe have to sacrifice in order to
• 50:25
  Speaker 4: make the world a better place. But some of the
• 50:27
  Speaker 4: things that they were forcing people to give up were
• 50:29
  Speaker 4: just because of humiliation and cruelty and And I couldn't
• 50:32
  Speaker 4: unsee that anymore. It became a point where I was like, yeah,
• 50:36
  Speaker 4: I'm not helping people. If everybody who I care about
• 50:39
  Speaker 4: is being treated like shit in front of my face,
• 50:43
  Speaker 4: we're not helping anybody. And I was like, yeah, I
• 50:47
  Speaker 4: can't do this anymore.
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: And so what held you then when you said that's
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: it and how do I get out of this?
• 50:55
  Speaker 4: I was 22, almost 21. So I wound up. saying
• 50:59
  Speaker 4: that I wanted to leave. They tried to like placate
• 51:01
  Speaker 4: me in many different ways. I was like, nope, I'm leaving.
• 51:06
  Speaker 4: They basically try to make you get an interrogation before
• 51:09
  Speaker 4: you leave, because if you don't get it, then you
• 51:13
  Speaker 4: basically are what they call declared a suppressive person, which
• 51:18
  Speaker 4: means that no Scientologist can ever talk to you. Again,
• 51:21
  Speaker 4: you're like the enemy. And I was to a point
• 51:24
  Speaker 4: where I'd had so many of these interrogations. like even
• 51:28
  Speaker 4: where I tried to get out of the room and
• 51:30
  Speaker 4: they like chased me down Hollywood Boulevard, chased me down
• 51:33
  Speaker 4: the stairs, physically restrained me, wouldn't let me out. And
• 51:37
  Speaker 4: I was like, I'm not doing it. Like at this point,
• 51:39
  Speaker 4: I didn't even really believe in Scientology itself anymore. So
• 51:43
  Speaker 4: I was like, I'm not doing it.
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: And did you get to the level of where you
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: found out about the spaceships and the aliens and stuff?
• 51:52
  Speaker 4: No, I found that out after they teach you in
• 51:55
  Speaker 4: Scientology that if you learn about that before it's your time,
• 52:00
  Speaker 4: then you'll basically die. So like they literally tell you
• 52:03
  Speaker 4: that you'll get like pneumonia and die. So even long
• 52:07
  Speaker 4: after I left Scientology, when I, when I was like
• 52:10
  Speaker 4: watching the South Park episode, I was like, I tested
• 52:13
  Speaker 4: it on my husband first. I was like, let's see
• 52:15
  Speaker 4: if you die. If you live, then I'll watch it.
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: And yeah, like, and then you always think about like
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: the person that gets that level of Are they like,
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: are you fucking kidding me? Like this is the story?
• 52:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 52:30
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 52:31
  Speaker 4: I mean, so like I could see somebody who's like,
• 52:35
  Speaker 4: you know, who's like maybe like you if you were
• 52:37
  Speaker 4: in Scientology. Like because not all Scientologists work in the
• 52:40
  Speaker 4: dedicated group that I did.
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 52:42
  Speaker 4: And grew up in the way I did. So like
• 52:45
  Speaker 4: if I was in the regular world and I heard that,
• 52:47
  Speaker 4: I'd be like, what the fuck?
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: Right, right.
• 52:51
  Speaker 4: I was already just like a brainwashed weirdo the entire
• 52:54
  Speaker 4: time I was there. So I probably would have been like, oh, cool.
• 52:58
  Speaker 6: Wow.
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: So when people say the reason like, you know, Tom
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: Cruise and, you know, and John Travolta got in it
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: and stayed in it so long, you know, some people
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: feel it's because they, like you, were like kind of
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: brainwashed in that, you know, all your success and everything
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: is because you're a Scientologist. The other part is in
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: one of those weird truth-telling, holding the two cans, that
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: maybe at that time they revealed some deviant behavior or
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: even homosexual behavior, and they used that as blackmail to
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: be like, if you ever leave, we'll tell. Now it
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: doesn't matter, but 20, 30 years ago, being gay when
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: you're playing this macho guy could have really hurt your career.
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: What do you think is the deal with those level
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: of stars that are still in it.
• 53:51
  Speaker 4: I mean, I think it's a combination of all of them.
• 53:53
  Speaker 4: I think it is a matter of blackmail at some point,
• 53:55
  Speaker 4: even if it's not being outright said, they know what
• 53:58
  Speaker 4: Scientology does to people who speak out about them. And,
• 54:03
  Speaker 4: I also think that they've been in Scientology for so
• 54:06
  Speaker 4: long at this point that all of their connections, all
• 54:08
  Speaker 4: of the people who work for them, all of everybody
• 54:13
  Speaker 4: is in Scientology. So they stand so much to lose,
• 54:15
  Speaker 4: all of their friends. Now they have other friends, I'm sure.
• 54:19
  Speaker 4: It's not like how it was for me, but I
• 54:20
  Speaker 4: think that's a big loss for them. And I think
• 54:25
  Speaker 4: that Scientology really appeals to the ego of maybe like
• 54:29
  Speaker 4: insecure actors or whatever. And it really, like, it can
• 54:37
  Speaker 4: make you feel really empowered, especially when, you know, you're
• 54:41
  Speaker 4: just going there and paying for it and getting treated
• 54:43
  Speaker 4: like a king or a queen, which is very different than,
• 54:47
  Speaker 4: you know, the experience that I'm having. I'm one of
• 54:50
  Speaker 4: the people who are serving those people or who are
• 54:53
  Speaker 4: carrying their folders or who, you know, are cut out.
• 54:56
  Speaker 4: So I honestly, so part of me is like, I
• 54:59
  Speaker 4: can understand why someone like me stays. I can understand
• 55:03
  Speaker 4: why someone like them stays, but I really think it's
• 55:06
  Speaker 4: extremely fucked up that they're living this life in their
• 55:11
  Speaker 4: mansion and have millions of dollars and are getting basically
• 55:19
  Speaker 4: taken care of by kids who are my age, who
• 55:22
  Speaker 4: are running their courses on them, who are running their counseling.
• 55:26
  Speaker 4: And they see all this and they hear the stories
• 55:29
  Speaker 4: in the media and they just say, oh, it's all bullshit. Well,
• 55:32
  Speaker 4: it must be nice to experience Scientology in that way.
• 55:37
  Speaker 4: But I've met many of those celebrities. I've seen them around.
• 55:41
  Speaker 4: When I was in Clearwater, Florida, there was tons of
• 55:44
  Speaker 4: kids like me running around. So they know that it's true.
• 55:48
  Speaker 4: They just don't care. It's just inconvenient for them.
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: And what do you think happened with Tom? And so
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: his first marriage or second marriage was with Nicole Kidman,
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: and they adopted two kids. And then they break up.
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: And she never has any, never sees those kids again.
• 56:06
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 56:06
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: What do you think happened in that situation?
• 56:10
  Speaker 4: So I remember speaking to my aunt, Shelly Miscavige at
• 56:13
  Speaker 4: the time when like Tom Cruise was getting back into Scientology.
• 56:16
  Speaker 4: And she basically told me that Nicole Kidman, her dad
• 56:20
  Speaker 4: was like a psych, a psychologist or a psychiatrist, which
• 56:23
  Speaker 4: is like the devil in Scientology. So basically because of that,
• 56:27
  Speaker 4: and Nicole wasn't like as much into Scientology like Tom was,
• 56:31
  Speaker 4: She was seen as somebody who was like badly influencing
• 56:34
  Speaker 4: him and was keeping him away from his full potential
• 56:38
  Speaker 4: in Scientology. And so she was like sort of like
• 56:41
  Speaker 4: bad news. So it's my understanding that Scientology basically orchestrated
• 56:46
  Speaker 4: him seeing her as the devil and them splitting up.
• 56:49
  Speaker 4: And then that's when he like went full on into Scientology.
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: And do you think in her case, you know, the
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: kids were adopted, but she, you know, was with the
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: kids in the beginning. I just wonder if she just
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: couldn't fight it. Like between being an actress, him being adopted,
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: I don't know what, why she forgot, just forwent, or
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: whatever you call it, that's not a word, but like
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: that she just gave up.
• 57:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: Like, okay, I'll marry someone else and have, you know,
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: the kids with Keith Urban. And like she never saw
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: those kids again. Do you just think it was just
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: too overwhelming, the power?
• 57:34
  Speaker 4: No, I don't think it was for lack of trying.
• 57:38
  Speaker 4: Like I believe that she tried very hard, but the
• 57:40
  Speaker 4: kids were essentially brainwashed and had been in Scientology for
• 57:44
  Speaker 4: many years. And so there comes a point, like even
• 57:47
  Speaker 4: when my parents were out of Scientology and I was
• 57:49
  Speaker 4: still in, if they had said one bad word about Scientology,
• 57:53
  Speaker 4: I never would have spoken to them. So you have
• 57:57
  Speaker 4: to like, you have to like, there's like this line,
• 58:01
  Speaker 4: That you have to like make it clear that you're
• 58:02
  Speaker 4: there for them no matter what. And you love them
• 58:05
  Speaker 4: and you have to be a nice person so that
• 58:07
  Speaker 4: when they're ready, they will come to you. But you
• 58:11
  Speaker 4: can't force the issue. And so honestly, that's what I
• 58:14
  Speaker 4: believe that she was doing.
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: And so then he gets with, you know, Katie Holmes.
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: And they have Suri. And then they break up. And
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: from everything that we've read, he has never seen Suri really.
• 58:29
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: And now she's like 19 or something. And so what
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: do you think happened there? Do you think that, that,
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: you know, she realized, oh shit, you know, I'm not
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: going to lose my dog. This is what I think.
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: I think maybe like any buddy that gets married, you
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: fall in love, you realize like, this isn't really this
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: Tom Cruise that I had a crush on because I
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: had the poster in my room is different now. And
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: now that I have a mother, that is the most
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: important relationship to me. And I think maybe she felt
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: If she doesn't divorce him now, the kid will be
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: sucked into the psychology world and then then she'll never
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: regain that power as the mom so yeah yeah yeah
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: and then I always wonder like I would have if
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: Tom didn't seek trying to see Suri because of that
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: whole idea of children like maybe he was like this
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: isn't that continue this relationship with her I don't know.
• 59:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah I mean Basically, once Katie would have pulled that
• 59:31
  Speaker 3: maneuver and like divorcing him and it looks bad on
• 59:34
  Speaker 3: him publicly and it looks like it's because of Scientology,
• 59:38
  Speaker 3: she would have then been considered a suppressive person.
• 59:41
  Speaker 4: And like, you know, as having sort of done something
• 59:44
  Speaker 4: to prove Scientology is psychotic so publicly. And so if
• 59:50
  Speaker 4: somebody is a suppressive person, you can't even be connected
• 59:53
  Speaker 4: to them through a child. You have to disconnect to
• 59:57
  Speaker 4: anyone who is connected to them. So because Katie is
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 4: her mom and is not going to let go of custody,
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 4: I actually believe that he signed over sole custody as
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 4: a sacrifice he would do for Scientology and for not
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 4: being connected to a suppressive person, which is her mom.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: And then what about the mystery of your aunt, Shelly,
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: and where she's been for the last 15 years, whatever
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: it's been?
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 4: I mean, it's a little bit. it's a little bit, well,
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 4: I don't personally believe that Shelly was ever missing. Like
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 4: she was reported missing, but she, by somebody like several,
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 4: like maybe six years after they last saw her, Shelly
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 4: wasn't somebody who spoke at Scientology events. She wasn't necessarily
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 4: a public person. She was somebody who maybe would have
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 4: like had been at a party with Leah Remini. Yeah. And,
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 4: but it's not like, Like everybody there is in a cult.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 4: So you can't really say that they're missing.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 4: Somebody who you're expected to see every day. So I
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 4: understand Leah being like, well, they wouldn't answer my question.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 4: Where is she? And that's weird. But also Leah doesn't
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 4: necessarily have a right to know where she is. And Scientology,
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 4: who at this point hates Leah Remini, isn't exactly going
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 4: to be like, you know, breaking their backs to answer
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 4: her questions.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: I always remember like, her being like, okay, so she
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: takes JLo to the Tom Cruise wedding and they put
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: JLo at a different table and they didn't want her
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: at that table. And then she's like, where's Shelly? And
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: I feel like there's something in that story that like
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: switched her to this, to be like pissed on in
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: a few levels. Like, oh, you think my best friend
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: JLo is a bigger star than me. You're trying to
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: recruit her. And I'm being seen as the less famous person.
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: So that probably pissed off her ego. And then that's
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: kind of, I think, then when she just, like, really turned.
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: Because I always tell when I was doing Chelsea Lately,
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: she was friends with Chelsea. And we had some jokes
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: about Scientology back then.
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 4: I would watch you back then.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 2: Before we even talked about it. And we did something
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: where we, like, did something about Scientology. And we, like, Photoshopped, like,
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: an alien, like, working... at the office, like with a
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: copy machine or something. And then the next day she said,
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: she heard from Leah who was like, Hey, Chelsea, you know,
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: can you lay off of the jokes? And so then
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: Chelsea's like, we can't do this anymore. And then there
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: was something else that happened. And I was like, wait
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 2: a minute. And I like figured out that whatever Leah
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: Remini was doing, she was either traveling or something and,
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: And I was like, Chelsea, there's no way she could
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 2: have watched the show. And I'm like, I think they
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: have Scientology people that are assigned to our show. And
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: she is the vessel that, you know, so. And, you know,
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: then eventually she got out and it's all fine. But
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: it's just like when she was doing all that stuff,
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: I'm like, I hope she knows what like a bully
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 2: she was, you know, and getting people to shut up
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: and everything for all those years. And, yeah. But at
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: least she's sharing the truth now. Right.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly. But yeah, that's the kind of thing that
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 4: they use celebrities for, for influence, whether it's in a
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 4: TV show or having them go speak to Congress to
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 4: get certain Scientology programs into schools, things like that. That's
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 4: why they treat them so well. But yeah, I believe
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 4: that after Leah got pissed off about not sitting next
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 4: to J-Lo and asking where Shelly is, They actually punished
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 4: her after for like quite a bit of time where
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 4: they forced her to do interrogations. And then that's when
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 4: she wound up leaving.
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: You mean she had to be questioned by them, like
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: do certain hours. Yeah.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 4: Yes, exactly. So similar to what they're always trying to
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 4: do to me. Yeah. She probably hadn't experienced it on
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 4: that level at that time. So that was like more
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 4: of her first taste of that where I had been
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 4: like experiencing that since I was a kid.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 4: You know, so I guess sometimes just when something doesn't,
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 4: like when it's happening to someone else, you know, it's,
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 4: you don't really feel it until it's happening to you.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. That's so true about so many things or someone
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 2: that's a horrible person to a lot of people, even
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: if it's not to the level of like, you know,
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: what you dealt with. And then people are like, well,
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: he was nice to me. I don't, I mean, I
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: don't know. I don't know the story. And you're like,
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: but I told you the story. Like, you know it. Like,
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: And then when it does happen to you, you look
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: back and you're like, oh, well, yeah, I was enjoying
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: it too when I wasn't really, really willing to face it.
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: I know that you wrote a book and tell everybody
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: where they can find that and follow you because you're
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: doing a lot of videos and doing a lot of
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: interesting things. You're continuing to expose it. And in your
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 2: exposure and writing of the book, has the backlash ever been,
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: you know, super terrifying or something would have made you stop?
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 4: I mean, just crazy things like being followed by PIs,
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 4: having certain people being inserted into my ex-husband and my
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 4: life to sort of spy on us. But I do
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 4: think that I get the better, like other people they really,
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 4: really go after. I think that I have the benefit
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 4: of having my last name be Miscavige and that they
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 4: would be the first people that anybody would suspect if
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 4: something happened to me. So I think that they like
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 4: kind of maybe chill a little bit, but it's still like,
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 4: you know, they still went out of their way to
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 4: try to destroy my family after we left Scientology and
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 4: my marriage. So yeah, but my book is called Beyond Belief,
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 4: My Secret Life Inside Scientology and My Heroine Escape. And
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 4: you can buy it on Amazon. My YouTube channel is
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 4: Jenna Miscavige. My TikTok is Jenna Miscavige. my Instagram is
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 4: the real Jenna Miscavige because somebody stole the Jenna Miscavige name.
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: So, and when, when Leah was doing her show, were
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: you approached by them at any point and doing anything
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: with that show?
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 4: I was approached at that time. And I just, there's
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 4: a few things going on. Like I was raising my
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 4: kids and then also like you know, the guy that
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 4: was involved, he had been a really big part of
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 4: sort of trying to ruin my life.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: Mike Rinder.
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 4: And so I, yeah, I didn't, I don't know. I
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 4: felt like we, I never like really got an apology
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 4: from him. And it was just like, yeah. I mean,
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 4: I think they did a great job in the show.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 4: Like I think that they told so many people's stories
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 4: and in such an important way. So like when I
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 4: look back at it, Now I'm like, wow, they did,
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 4: they did really did a great job and they really
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 4: got the word out there. But at the time, that's
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 4: kind of what I was thinking.
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 2: Are you surprised that it's still, that people are, I
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: can see why people are still in it, but I'm
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: like shocked that anybody would join it new and with
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: everything that's out there now, how could someone join? Do
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: you think they're getting any new people?
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 4: I do think they are, but yes, I mean, many
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 4: people who are, their parents like are in and then
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 4: their kids are getting in. So I think that's a
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 4: big part of it, but I mean, they get to
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 4: people in sneaky ways. They have all these front groups.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 4: They have like Narconon, Criminon, Citizens Commission on Human Rights,
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 4: all of these organizations that are really Scientology, but they
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 4: get people without them knowing that's what it is, or
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 4: even whole business programs. People get recruited through business, but
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 4: it's called World Institute of Scientology Enterprises. So it's just
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 4: like there's so many little scams going on where they
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 4: get people.
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I came across some weird like, you know, TikTok
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: video of like people being interviewed in a show that
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 2: kind of was trying to look like Vice or something.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: You know, that shows like a documentary. And it was
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: just these no name people then saying that like, oh,
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 2: Leah Remini was, you know, horrible on set. And she
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: was so mean. And I started to look it up.
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 2: And then they talk about this other guy. And I go,
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 2: who's this other guy? And I look him up and
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 2: they're all ex Scientologists that they're attacking. And I'm like, well,
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 2: this is just, they're just trying to make it look
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 2: like a show. So then you come across it and you,
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 2: you don't really do the research and you're like, Oh,
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: Leo Remini is like a bitch on set or whatever,
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 2: you know, just like you hear about anybody telling on celebrities,
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 2: you know, just to completely still, you know, trash their name.
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 4: They do these production quality videos and they just get
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 4: people to come on and absolutely trash ex Scientologists. And
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 4: the sad thing, it's usually like they're, family members or
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 4: it's usually like their ex like best friends and it's
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 4: like you know, not only that is a horrible thing
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 4: to do to somebody like publicly, but it's also like,
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 4: it sort of discourages you from speaking out. It discourages
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 4: many people from speaking out.
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 2: And, um, so are you connected with your parents now?
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: I do.
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 4: I am connected with them like they're out of Scientology. But,
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 4: you know, it has been a little bit up and
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 4: down and whatever. Like, unfortunately, once you leave Scientology, not
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 4: everything goes away. You know, you don't just like miraculously
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 4: get your whole childhood back.
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 4: You're fine. So it's had good moments and it's had
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 4: bad moments. And I just kind of think that it's
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 4: like something that you work through and deal with for
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 4: the rest of your life pretty much.
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, this has been so interesting. I'm really glad
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 2: that we got to connect again and hear about it
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 2: because it's been a minute. I feel like, you know, people,
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: it was such a big hot topic and then it's
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: kind of like, and then, but there's still all these
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 2: unanswered questions. So thank you for answering them. And I
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 2: appreciate you so much. Thank you. And tell everybody where
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 2: they can follow you one more time. Okay.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 4: So my book is called Beyond Belief, My Secret Life
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 4: Inside Scientology, and My Harrowing Escape. You can find it
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 4: on Amazon. And my YouTube channel is just Jenna Miscavige.
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 4: My TikTok's Jenna Miscavige. And my Instagram is TheRealJennaMiscavige.
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 2: Got it.
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Have a good rest of your day.
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you too.
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 3: Bye.
• 1:10:33
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