Latest / WoT Spoilers / The Death of Tuon - The Gathering Storm chapter 36 - EP533

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The Death of Tuon - The Gathering Storm chapter 36 - EP533 · WoT Spoilers

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: This is the wheel of time spoilers bloodcast.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: Speaking of attention, spaking.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Attention, what we should pay attention to the book series
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: that we're reading.
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we should pay attention to the death of Tuon,
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: which is not quite as formal and fine, not quite
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: as final as some of us may have wished.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: I mean, but you know it's her dead name now, right,
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: and so in a lot of ways we it is.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: It is the death of the name Tuon.
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I am unimpressed by this logic, but that is
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: clearly the logic she is working with.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Even though four Tuona contains tu On, which I can't believe.
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: I never noticed that until you pointed it.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: Out, whether or not whether which one came first, the
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: chicken of the egg one contains the other for sure.
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean to our points about dyslexia, right,
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: like I don't need to know how words are spelled,
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: right right? Why what I noticed that Tuon is in
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: four Tuona. That is completely irrelevant to what's happening, which.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: Is of course fortune right, which means she's lady Luck,
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: which means Matt Mary Lady Luck. Right, like there's that
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: whole pond. Of course he does, of course he did, like,
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: thank thanks Jordan for the pun.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then I'm just like, really, so her entire
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: name is just a pun for being his wife. Like,
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: oh my god, we have dog cam. We had five
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: seconds of dog cam.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: He jumped up.
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: He's very sweet, big of expressive eyes.
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: He's a little walle eyed. He kind of looks about
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: book ways, but he's okay, okay, I know I'm recording
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: a podcast right now. I'm gonna have to shut him
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: out because we're never gonna get this done with him
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: constantly demanding my attention in here. As much as I
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: love him, go.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: On, I don't know that you're the only person who
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: who likes to on? What do we mean by like?
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: Do we mean would have a beer with her? Do
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: we mean like reading her? Do we mean like served
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: points for the plot? You know, because I like to
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: rag on her because of the whole slave empire thing,
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: but like I do like her as a part of
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: the story. I don't like how she ends, but that's
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: partially because of how good everything before the ending was, right, Like,
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: that's why it sucks that it lands the way it
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: does at the end.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: I wanted to see her have that realization that oh
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: my empire is based on slavery. Oh, I'm one of
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: the people who could be enslaved if I just made
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: different choices, you know, I you know, maybe let's have
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: some empathy for the people who are collared and do
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: something about it. And if nothing else, just have that
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: moment of going, oh, well that's a problem, you know,
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: like just that right right where she like realizes that,
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: like instead of just being like no, no, no, no, no,
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: y'all are fucked up. The best solutions is the callers, definitely, right. Like,
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: That's why I find too On frustrating as a character
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: because there the redemption isn't there, and Matt marries her
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: without and then doesn't really try and redeem her like
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: and that to me also feels on a meta level
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: like something that Sanderson shied away from that I feel
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: like he shouldn't have and that frustrates me because there
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: was a couple of arcs, there's a couple of character
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: arcs like that that he just didn't complete that, like
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: maybe he ran out of time, maybe didn't have the
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: place for it. I mean, it was a long ass
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: book already.
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: No Jordan's set up satala Annan to be a solution
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: to be that off ramp for her to be that
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: person who starts her on the path towards being de
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: radicalized to being a slaver. And then Sanderson explicitly said no,
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: Like you can see it on the page where he
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: looks at that opportunity and turns it down. It's like,
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: but Jordan laid it up for you.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, weligion, I disagree. I believe there is an art
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: like the whole being stuck in the wagon with the
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: Iaiday having to deal with them in the circuits right
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: as people. She sees them as people, right, she has
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: that experience to reflect back on and be like, Okay,
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: these these women were actually in control of themselves.
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: I agree with Seth. I think it like, I see
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: what you mean religion, Like it's not as big as
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: strong as it should have been. But Sanderson could have
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: and he didn't. It's just I wanted to have the
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: shan chenk coming in to save the day at the end,
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: as the Americans in World War two, Like I wanted
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: that to land was so much more oomph because it's like,
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: you know the wheels that are turning in her head,
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: but we know the wheels are turning in a wildly
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: different direction.
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: But whatever, yeah, no, and a little Gi making a point.
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: There's no evidence of her actually making progress, right, It's
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: just the situation she was in was seen prime for
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: her to then reflect on it.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: Yes, And then Sanderson and Tuon both said, nah, it
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: was a lead your horse to water and then it
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: refuses to drink. It was like, but you know, and.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: That's why I want to hold her head underwater until
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: she fucking drinks, you know, Like.
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: Right, yeah, but that's but that's the thing is like
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: I Jordan had her stubborn, stubborn, stubborn, stubborn, but able
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: to change. And then Sanderson said, no, I don't want
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: to take that, which, like it would have been a hard,
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: hard curved but it wouldn't have had to be like
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: she fixed the empire while doing the last battle. All
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: we wanted was for her to realize that she's wrong.
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: That's all we wanted. We didn't need her to like
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: come up with a solution, much less inact it. We
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: just needed her to realize that the solution was required,
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: and we didn't even get that yellowgiend. My head canon
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: is that her and Matt get divorced when she refuses
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: to let Bode Coffin off the leash. My head canon
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: is that somehow bow Coffin ends up collared, and then
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: Matt's like, my sister or my wife. Obviously I'm picking
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: my sister. Fuck you mm hmm, Like that's that's my
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: Someone else proposed that several years ago in the Server,
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: and I I think that's the best head cannon for that.
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: I mean, I sorry, I'm sorry boat Coffin, that you
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: that's gonna happen. But like we don't know that she
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: wasn't taken in the raid on the White Tower. So pants,
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: you're you're, you're okay, nice, excellent. That was a long
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: time ago, right, Like that's a that's an old head cannon.
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: That's from many years ago.
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: I just imagine the journey takes longer that he has
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: to go and like convince her, and it takes many, many,
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: many years of deep programming to get her to admit.
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: I mean, the long game is a strategy also, for sure,
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: But if his family is threatened, I think that he
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: drops two on like a hot potato.
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, just to note, I'm gonna cock you calling her
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: two on four two one is such a pain in
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: the ass to say thank you.
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is this podcast policy that she is too on. Yeah, yeah,
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: I don't. I don't feel like that's a disrespectful dead
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: naming because like, what are you doing?
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: What?
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: No, keep your damn name. God.
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: But I guess we could, we could to differentiate between
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: the two, but it's whatever. It's two on. I'm gonna
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna tear into it anyway the whole the reason,
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: I don't even know why we're talking about two on.
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: This chapter barely even touches on her. It's like three
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: paragraphs at the end, right, Like this is a varren chapter.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, let's let's let's get into the varren of it all,
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: despite the title of the chapter.
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: Like there's there's some varenness and like, how do you
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: rate the varrenness of this chapter?
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: I mean I kind of love.
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: It from a your dress is green to Moraine sent me,
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: Like my right.
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: It bridges bow, it literally bridges both because she's sipping
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: tea the whole time, Like the tea keeps getting focused
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: on and keeps getting focused on and keeps getting focused on.
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: I'm just like a it's varron in a cup of
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: tea out.
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: No, oh, see what I found was the bench that
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: they keep mentioning.
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: Oh that too, Yes, yes.
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: Okay, okay, so we'll talk about that. No.
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: I loved it. I loved the Matt Varren interaction. I
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: even really liked Matt here. This this to me just
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: felt like such peak wheel of time, because yeah, we've
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: got the bench like with Agwayne, and we've got Varren
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: just with her tea and her letters, and we've got
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: Matt with his like running narrative about the bench. Just
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: you know. I enjoyed it very much. I enjoyed it
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: very much. I do feel like there's a little bit
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: of the Sandersonian like Fourth Wall breakiness. We're about thinking
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: about how Varn is putting on a show, but also
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: like we are in Varren's end games, so like cards
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: on the table is the It's fine.
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: No, And the next bit of Varn is very Verren
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: and very good, right, because like we're going to the
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: end of yeah, and you said endgame baron, Yeah.
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: I mean yeah, Sanderson's like really just savoring his penultimate
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: moment with her, and like how can I be mad
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: about that? We all are?
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: And I also wasn't this something that Jordan had planned?
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: And I don't. I don't know. Okay, I don't know.
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: I'm not versed on that lore. It doesn't surprise me, though.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: This feels like it was baked deeply into the way
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: he had the world set up, like Varren was always
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: going to do something like this, I think, like, I don't,
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: but I don't know specifically.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: I always wonder when she wrote her cipher, right, because
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: reever she was like, oh, one of these days I
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: have to sit down and write a cipher for this
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: book so someone else can read it. And then when
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: she gives it to Agwayne, she includes the cipher. Yeah.
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: I was wondering when we When I came across that
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: line recently, it was just like, wait, so she she
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: didn't write the little book until well into this series,
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: like I always kind of assumed until yeah recently. But yeah, no,
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: she wrote the cipher somewhere between.
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: I think she wrote it while she was being installed.
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: So I think she has it now, Oh right, she
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: probably she had to have taken the bookmark from tarvallin right, Well, no,
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: she probably has the bookmark already for her.
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: I bet she's had the book work for decades, yeah, centuries.
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: But yeah, no, I bet that she's writing it now
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: because she's like stock, she's studying things right, and she's
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: making her basically final plan. She's trying to get to
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: Tarvalin to turn over her book of Dark, and she
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: has to have made a cipher for that.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: She couldn't have risked making a cipher without knowing when
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: she was going to hand it over. It wouldn't have
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: been a thing that she just carried because she made this.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: That's my only question is like, can you hold a
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: cipher like that in your head and like not fuck
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: up without the key?
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: She? I mean, she's invented it, right.
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: But Varen right, Varn knows. Varen is our narrodivergent autistic queen,
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: and she knows she knows.
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: Don't question her.
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: And also, like historically speaking, many many people have worked
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: out ciphers entirely in their heads, and like, yes, many
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: historical examples of that being a thing.
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: So it's like learning another language.
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: It's impressive as hell. It's impressive as hell to come
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: up with the cipher that is incomprehensible, hold it in
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: your head, write your entire book without ever making a serious,
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: you know, translation error, and then write the cipher only
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: at the end. That's an incredible mental feat. But yeah,
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: if ordinary people in the real world can do it,
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: Vern definitely can.
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: Also think about how long she's had to do it
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: and practice it right, you know, if you can master
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: a skill.
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: I love the idea that she's realized that she's caught
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: in this Taveran thing, realizes that like she's probably in
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: her end game and having to make her final moves,
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: and is like, well, I guess what I'm going to
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: do with this time is write the cipher because I
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: have nothing better to do while I wait for this
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: Taveran thing to play out. I love that idea. This
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: is specifically done in the boredom waiting for Matt to
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: show up.
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: That's my head cannon it. I don't have no evidence
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: for it, but yeah.
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: I'll take it. I will buy it on sale at Target.
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: Uh, do you want to give us a reading and
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: actually start this chapter?
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: It's a Matt pov.
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: Technically I thought it was a Varren pov. No, you're right,
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: you're right. It is is Matt pov. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: It's a Varren focused but Matt's the one doing it.
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: We're staring each other down, waiting for the other one
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: to start the reading.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: I had no idea you're waiting for me.
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: Chapter thirty six, the Death of Tuon, And we have
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: a snake in the wheel right.
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: Yep, because Varren is moving the pillars of Earth itself
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: with her.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: Sneakiness, changing the warp in the weave. A right. I
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: began my journey in tear, Varren said, sitting down on
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: Matt's best chair, made of dark walnut with a nice
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: tan pillow. Thomas took position behind her, hand on the
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: pommel of his sword. My goal was to make my
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: way to Tarbalin. Then how did you end up here?
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: Matt asked, still suspicious, as he seated himself on the
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: pillowed bench. He hated the thing. It was completely impossible
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: to sit on it in any way that was comfortable.
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: Pillows didn't help. Sometimes they made the seat more awkward.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: Bloody thing must have been designed by insane cross eyed
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: trollocks and built from the bones of the damned. That
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: was the only reasonable explanation. He shifted on the bench
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: and nearly called for another chair, but Varren was continuing.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: Mandowin and Tomnis were just inside the tent, the former
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: standing with folded arms, the latter settling himself on the floor.
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: Tom sat on the floor on the other side of
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: the room, watching Varren with calculating eyes. They were all
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: in Matt's smaller audience tent, which was intended only for
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: short conferences between officers. Matt hadn't wanted to bring varin
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: to his actual sitting tent, as it was still spread
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: out with his plans for raiding. True stare of how Matt.
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: Just casually has multiple tents for meeting people and doesn't
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: even comment on it, like, okay, Lord Matt.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: They're on the move. But yeah, no, he's got multi
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: that's I didn't even notice that.
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he just has a regular tent and a special tent, Like, sir,
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: you do not get to call yourself not a lord
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: when you have a smaller meeting tent as opposed to
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: your regular sitting tent.
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: And a mahogany bench that they've been carrying with them
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: this whole way. Yeah, how you that is uh huh, Yeah,
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: it's ununcomfortable.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: That's not particle board.
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: That's solid what all right? So they mentioned I counted it.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: They mentioned the bench eight times in this chat of him,
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: like being uncomfortable on the bench. What is going on there?
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: Do you have? Like I feel like there has to
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: be you know, obviously the ambulance seat was sitting on
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: the ambulance seat which is folding underneath her because it
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: had an unstable base, Like it was really clear in
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: that situation, and I was wondering, is Sanderson just mentioning
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: it because it's uncomfortable and he wants Matt to be
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: uncomfort le around varn because she's aide, Like, what's going
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: on there? Hey?
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I yeah, because I was. I was trying to
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: draw that parallel as well. And I think it's partially
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: just there for comic relief, just to have Matt squirming,
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: like and it's not Varren quote unquote, it's just the bench.
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: But then so it's funny. But I think maybe also
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: it's like his discomfort with Isidae and with going to
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: the Tower of Genji and with leadership, like just all
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: the pressures that are on him. He's just kind of
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: squirming under all of it, under his tavernness. I mean,
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: he's really pushing back at his tavernness here. So maybe
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: it's just that kind of discomfort, But yeah, it doesn't
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: feel quite as layered and subtle as with what I mean.
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: I the aguaint thing was not subtle, but it felt
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: like there was more layers to it. This feels like
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: there's less layers to it. But I do think that
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: there are a couple layers a little bit.
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: There's a couple layers. Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, and I
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: like this a little bit where he says, yeah, he
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: doesn't really remember her, but he remembers her being a
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: very mousey brown and now looks at her and he's like, yeah,
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: now I see the brown mass mouseie brown as a
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: mask and as a wink in a nod. I see it.
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: She sees that I see it. She knows she's going
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: to continue to play the mousey brown, and I'm going
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: to play along with that. But we both know something
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: else is going on here.
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, which I like. I do like it. I really
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: like the byplay. I like that it shows that Matt's
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: intelligence score has increased, you know.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: And I like the unconscious communication that's going on between
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: them as well.
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I do really like that. It's it's a
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: nice sense of, oh, these characters have progressed and are
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: in a different place than they were before. And I
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: also like the parallel to Rand, noticing that solution was
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: the bodyguard. Right, Like Rand and Matt are both saying,
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: I see your facade and I see what's going on
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: underneath it, and I do like that. But I'll so
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: I'm like, world building wise, if Matt can pick up
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: on her deception, then shouldn't everyone else be like throughout
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: her life throughout the decades? Or is she hamming it
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: up for him?
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: I had I'm assuming she's hamming it up for him a.
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: Little bit, oh okay, because she knows the soldiers are
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: not her toughest crowd.
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: Whatever, right, and she kind of knows that like Taveren,
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: this is what you need, like I don't really have that.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: I can pretend to be a little clever with him
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: because like, and.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: It is fun. Then the unspoken byplay is very fun
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: to watch, especially because, yeah, Matt doesn't call her out
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: on it, and she knows he won't.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: It's just like, but she hasn't been involved a little
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: too far, like we are right before the last battle,
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: she is absolutely like, I'm on your side. I've been
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: involved since the very beginning. Like it's no longer like,
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: oh my god, I know the rams, the dragon reborn,
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: you know, like everybody knows that, you know, so she
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: doesn't really have to hide some of her allegiance in
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: the same way I feel like, because then, like Matt remembers,
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: she was there at the beginning.
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, for sure, him and her traveled together to Fall.
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: They both went through flicker flicker, right, like they they
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: they've been through some stuff together. They've known each other
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: since more or less the beginning.
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: Really one of the longest periods of time in book
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: two was them traveling together. Now, he was unconscious for
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: a big chunk of that, but not for.
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: The trip out though, like the entire hunt for the
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: horn process, he was not dagger Matt because he had
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: been healed and he didn't possess the dagger anymore, right, right,
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: And they were traveling together. He wasn't unconscious until the
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: trip back mm hm.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: And he wasn't unconscious for until the very end of
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: that really.
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, he was conscious for a good chunk of it.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: So Yeah, in terms of isa Die that he spent.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: Time with Varren is probably number one.
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: Second only to Morain, if not ahead of Moray.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because because that was a long period of time,
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: that journey was like.
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, months, Yeah, book two takes the longest period of time,
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: and like they both went through Flicker Flicker, so you know,
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: they really both had the So yeah, it does make
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: sense that she's kind of like, you know that I'm
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: more than just another eyes to Die because I've been
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: here since book two and we got all the time together.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: You know, I'm more than justin ie because of course
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: it's me, not any other Eyes to Die you're running into.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: I have to wonder if Flicker Flicker affected some of
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: what she did here when she knew, like when it
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: was time.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, when she says I never thought that I would
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: dot dot dot, like one assumes that that is kill
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: myself to fix everything, because the whole reason she's a
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: dark friend is because she didn't want to die, So
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: of course she would never have thought that she would
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: kill herself in order to serve the greater good, Like
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: that was a line too far seventy years ago, so
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: she would never think it would work now. So yeah, yeah,
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: I do think that maybe this is part of her
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: kind of like the Iel rings, being like, oh oh,
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: I'm starting to see the signs of what could happen,
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: Like I know what's going to happen next, and she's like,
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: all right, I know my men game. I'm just gonna
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: wink and nod at everyone. I have no no major
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: secrets left to hide, aside from the one which I'm
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: actively in the act of going to deliver hich's essentially
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: already in the act of going to a guain. Right,
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: she knows where this ends. There's still the oath rod question,
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: but like, and she's hoping.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: She can get the olth rod, right, but like, that's
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: definitely a fifty to fifty shot. I think on her part.
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: At best, At best she knows that it's to fifty
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: to fifty. It's a coin toss if she can get it.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: It's a coin toss if the dark one's o's can
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: be removed so easily, right, Like, she has no idea
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: if it will work. So yeah, yeah, she's laying it
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: on a little take because yeah, like Telmanis and the
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: band are not going to be scrutinizing her to see
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: if she's a correct eyes to die, Like, there's no need,
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: there's no need. It's fine.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: She talks a little bit about Severein, talks a little
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: bit about rand I, like this is he is he
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: you know, mad Varon asked. Matt nodded, I'm afraid so
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: like Baron again, Yes, he's mad. He's like Varren is
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: telling us, he's mad. He's been bad for a while.
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: He's still in control of himself. He still hasn't lost
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: himself to the madness. But he's seen things that aren't there,
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: hearing voices that don't exist. Like he's mad and has
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: been for a while.
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: But also she emphasizes it's not just the taint that
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: makes him mad. He's also going mad from the pressure
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: of being the Dragon Reborn in the socio political context
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: and all the assassination attempts and all the different factions
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: and traveling the world and ruling all these countries. Like
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: he's going insane from that as much as from the taint,
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: which is something that I really appreciated when she said that, because, Yeah,
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: no one ever talks about the human strain that he's
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: going in. It all all about the magical fantasy world strain,
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: but like he's under some really intense human pressure too.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: I feel like we talked about it during Dragon Reborn,
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: when we talked about how it felt like he got
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: really insane and then less insane, and how that was
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: really the stress, right, that's that like finding out you
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: were actually the dragon reborn, you were destined to die,
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: you have to sacrifice, go through pain, do all these things.
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: Like you hear the Choreathon cycle for the first time
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: and you're just like, oh my god, that's what I
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: have to deal with. Like he went a little nuts, right,
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: he killed that woman right in the and like that's
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: something that's just like whoa way out of left field
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: and something that took books and books and books for
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: him to get back to and was like the tipping
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: point with Samarog right, like that has got him touching
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: the dark power and it felt like, oh yeah, he
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: was going in. Part of that might be just the
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: way Jordan was writing the books that he thought there
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: were gonna be a few books, so we made it
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: more insane, quicker. But like the way he sort of
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: phased is yeah, he doesn't have the same pressure, or
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: he's adjusted to the pressure a little bit.
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And Varren's saying, essentially she's imagining if the timeline
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: of when the books were published versus like how many
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: books there are versus plot like made sense, Like she's
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: essentially speaking to a world in which RJ meant for
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: it to be a fourteen book series or where somehow
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: all of this has happened in three books. Like, either way,
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: what she's saying is congruent to that as opposed to
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: the more janky experience the readers had.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: She tells them about the taint being cleansed, and he
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: sort of gets the implications of it more than almost
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: anybody else has in the series, Like we finally get
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: somebody going, whoa, that's a big deal.
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, which I kind of like, you know what, maybe
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: they are friends because I like that one of Rand's
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: oldest friends ever is the person who immediately understands what
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: Rand understood about it as a world changing event. Like, Okay,
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: I guess you guys were friends, and like maybe are
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: still friends because your minds do still run in the
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: same kind of ways.
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: And also like that does mean that like Rand won't
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: get more insane, except he is, but that's a whole
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: different thing.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: Well again, the human pressures are not gonna let up,
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: and the traumas are not gonna let up. Only the
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: increase of taint is gonna let up.
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: And like, yeah, and there's still plenty of taps already overflowing.
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: It doesn't really matter if you stop pouring, it's just
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: gonna hit surface tension for whatever.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: The next little bit is about Varren talking about how
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: she got caught on her journey. I found it a
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: little cartoonish.
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a montage of funny cartoon moments, Yeah, for sure.
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: What I find more interesting is just tracking the cup
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: of tea she has, and she asks for tea, and
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: then Matt nods to Telmani's who actually gives the order,
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: and then she's like sipping this cup of mint tea
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: the whole time, and I'm just like watching it, being like,
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: I know it's not poisoned. I know it's not poisoned,
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: but like the next time she has a cup of
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: tea on screen, it's gonna be her last cup of tea.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: This is her pental to MI cup of tea.
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: Ah.
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: So I found that more interesting, and.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: I think this is also a really good way for
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: him to be like, ignore the couple of tea. The
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: couple of tea doesn't matter. Ignore the couple of tea.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: And then in the next chapter when it does matter,
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: it's hiding in plain sight, right because you've ignored it.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: In this right chapter, right, you're just like, oh, Varren
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: really cares about her tea. Like, we're just gonna think
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: about her tea when she's on the screen. It's not
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: a big deal, nothing, it's just a personality about that
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: at all. It feels like like Sanderson's actually managing a
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: real good foreshadow right now.
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: Totally totally because.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: On a reread, you're like, no, no, even though you
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: know what's not poisoned and you know that when she
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: drinks that she's the one who poisoned it, so like, hmmm, yeah,
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: but yeah, I agree that the montage of why she
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: is here is it's silly.
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: It just stretches the believability of Tavarian to the kind
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: of eye roll at some of the events a little bit.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, precisely. So anyway, I don't know that we
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: need to go through every incidence.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: I don't want to.
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's literally two pages and then we get to
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: the end and Matt's like, but it still could be coincidence,
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: and she says, coincidence is how being tavern works. Care
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: to throw some dice on it, and he's like no,
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: And that's the end of the of the argument. That's
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: really the conclusion, and she's like, that's how Tavieren works,
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: dumb ass.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: And then she does bring up one of the point,
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: which is why me, because there's other channelers who can
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: create gateways. Why did it have to be.
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: Varren aside from fan service?
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well because you wanted to be Varren?
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, exactly exactly, because everyone would have killed Sanderson
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: if it had.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: Not been Varia some unnamed or once named I said,
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: eye he brings back to.
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: Join random s named, so but we don't.
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: She doesn't really answer why she had to be here, right,
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: other than pulling out.
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: The letters the flyers.
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: The flyers but also the But then she gives him
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: the letter right about the invasion, makes a deal with him, right,
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: So I.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: Wonderful that because he's going to and.
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: Or yeah, if she's like, it's me because I'm the
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: one who knows about the trolis invading through the gateway,
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: so I can give you notice to save the city.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: What you needed was information, and I have that information.
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: That makes more sense than just giving him a heads
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: up about the death threats and the flyers, because I
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: feel that was what I always thought it was, was
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: that like she had the four to one one on, like, no,
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: you need to be really careful. This is not someone
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: interested in information. Someone's trying to kill you, Like you
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: need to go so far underground. That was what I
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: always thought it was. But I think that you're right.
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: In addition to that, which is like a bye the bye,
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: you should be careful. But yeah, the fact that she's
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: putting that nut because she says in the letter that
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: she assumes he's opened it up like two days after.
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, yeah no, And you can see she smarts
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: here when she does. She's like, oh, yeah, you'll totally
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: last ten days smirk and it's like yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: She doesn't think he's gonna.
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: Last, but he sets his entire will against it just
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: because fuck you, that's why, and thus almost fucks everything up.
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah right, right, right because two rivers, stubbornness and all
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: that jazz.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: Yeaheah exactly.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: But he needed the warning that CAMLN was being invaded, right,
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: that's my assumption.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's that's yeah, that's her real reason. Cleverly
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: disguised under the Oh, by the way, you're super gonna
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: get assassinated if you don't calling yourself Lord Crimson and
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: growing a beard right.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: I also love this. I received this paper Mattrium from
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: a dark friend, and it's like.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: Believed I was another dark friend, which is not untrue. No,
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: I mean she's she's being scrupulously eyes to die here
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: and speaking no word that is not true, even though
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: she doesn't have to.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: She is and she's saying this is different because this
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: is forsaken coming after you. This isn't. She doesn't say that,
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: but basically, like that's what we know is different about
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: these commands.
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a fresh set of murder orders. This
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: is not the standing murder orders you've been dodging for books.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: This is a fresh level of escalation because.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: I feel like all the previous ones were dark friends
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: pledged to a Shameael who were given the order to
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: you know, because they were at the dark friend's social
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: That's because like remember we kind of talked about how
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: dark friends specifically were pledged to a sha Mael because
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: he kept coming back every thousand years, not to the
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: dark one.
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: Right, which I had not picked up on until the podcast,
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: But yes, I agree.
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. And then land Fear That's one of the
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: reasons all Landfear lay is always like dark friends, they're
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: just dumb, like.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: They're just followers of one other dark friend, they're not
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: actually like the whole kaboo.
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: Thing, And so he shared their image. Right, Remember back
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: in book two Dark Friend's social he shares the image
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: of the three boys with dark Friends, but not with
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: the other forsaken, and not with followers of any of
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: the other forsaken.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: Right, right, just the cult of a shamail.
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: Right, And so now instead of having the followers of
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: one foresaken going after them, they have the followers of
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: multiple foresaken coming after them. Right.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: And Varren is not necessarily privy to all those details,
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: but she knows enough to put together like, nah, your
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: threat model needs an update. I also love how she
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: says that wasn't the cost, that was a suggestion one
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: I think you should listen to with great prejudice. I
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: love how she's like, you should be suspicious of what
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: I say. Yeah, wait, so doesn't mean I have to
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: trust you or be suspicious, Like, how do you how
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: do you get I love it? I love her. I
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: love her so much.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: So then then we get the whole thing with the instructions, right,
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: or she tries to give them the instructions and he says,
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: you'll follow these ten days after you get to Camblin,
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: and he's like, absolutely not. I'm not going to commit
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: to doing anything not knowing what it is. Right, I'm
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: never gonna almost a favor to an I said, I like,
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: which is so classically Matt, right, I'm not going to
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: do what you say without knowing what it is you
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: want me to do, which I think, to me is
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: the most frustrating part of these instructions, right, is like
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: Varrin should have seen and known Matt well enough to
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: know that he was not going to commit to an
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: I saidye, getting her hooks into him to quote with
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: quot air quotes, right, because by committing to do something
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: where he doesn't know what it is, he could then
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: be on the hook for years right to do and.
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, future favors are dangerous.
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: And especially for someone who will not break a promise. Right.
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: What if it was like, you will serve the ambulance
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: seat for the rest of your life and he promised
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: that for the gateway and he's like, fuck, I don't
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: now I'm stuck doing that, right, like, because Matt won't
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: break a promise.
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: Right, right, And she says, I promise that it'll be fine.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: You won't or she says, I think you won't find
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: it onerous because naturally, defending Camelin is not going to
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: be against his nature, particularly not with the amount of
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: lead time that she's giving him. She's giving him the
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: ability to get Caitlin ready like a week before the
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: weeks I think before the invasion, whereas Tamanis and Oliver
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: don't discover the note until the attack is basically underway.
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: She was trying to give them a big heads up.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: It's like, couldn't you have given him something slightly more
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: like as an eyes to die? I solemnly swear that
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: this is more to do with you going to Camelin
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: than with any eyes to die whatsoever? Like, couldn't you
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: have given him something? But no, her eyes to die,
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: mistrust and his two rivers stubbornness lead to a lot
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: more destruction of Camelin than was strictly necessary.
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: And I think the other reason is she really, at
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: this point still hopes she can get the oath rot right.
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: I hope to be able to return you and relieve
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: you of the letter and send you on your way.
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: So on one level, she's kind of she's giving him
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: the notice. But on another level, she wants to take
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: the oath saw, take the note off of him, and
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: go warn them about the invasion herself, because she's got
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: rid of the oaths, so she's not a dark friend anymore, right,
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: That's what she would like to be doing. So on
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: one level, I think she's just like, yeah, I mean
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: this is this is definitely a backstop to a backstop, right, Like,
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: I'm really hoping I don't have to use this.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: Right right, Yeah, I see that that that hope maybe
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: maybe clouded her judgment ever so slightly. And yeah, she
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: can't tell him take this and open it right away
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: because that would betray a thing. She has to say,
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: take it and open it after the point at which
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: I'm definitely dead or definitely free.
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: Right. And then this is a whole bit about you know,
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: fifty days versus thirty days, two weeks, Yeah, the negotiation whatever,
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: it ends up being thirty days. Right, it's going to
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: take him twenty days to get to Kamlin, which he
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: says is two weeks. Remember ten day weeks here? Yeah, yeah,
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: So it's like, yeah, he only has to basically wait
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: an extra ten days in Camlin, and it would take
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: at least that long to build, you know, to do everything.
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: So he's gaining thirty days and he's gaining twenty days
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: and camelin right, you know, So that all that they
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: talk about.
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then when she hands him the note, finally
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: he sees that she has many, many others. Right, She's
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: got lots of these little seeds that she is casting
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: to the wind before she goes for her final go
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: at the White Tower and Agwain. She has a lot
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: more visits to make.
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: I would also argue, hmmm, here's the thing. She can't
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: betray the dark One yet these letters betray the dark One.
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: She has to insist that he opens them after she
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: is after That's the only way she can give these out.
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: Because it's a Schrodinger's betrayal. If you haven't broken the
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: celi yet exactly exactly longcause no one's read it, it
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: doesn't count. As soon as someone reads it, it counts.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: So she has to exact an ironclad promise that it
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: will happen after it's it's loopholes within loopholes, this woman,
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: and we know that a Lana gets one of these.
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: Oh interesting, we don't know where any of the others go, Yeah,
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: Alana vanishes and they find the envelope for this with
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: the with the red wax on it.
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: Do they read the note?
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: The note's gone, it's just the outer wrapper thing. But
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: it's it's as described here. So I don't know who
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: else gets one, but something. Oh, Athlon's saying that Rand
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: and Gallade each get one. How does Galade get one?
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: Why would Galade get one? Oh?
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: I feel like we have to do some research in.
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: This curveball from the audience. Why how do you feel
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: like Rand getting one? Tracks thirteenth Depository there we go.
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, a lot of information about the one she
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: sends to Rand. That's how he finds out about Matt
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: and Stepaneus probably also told him that where them on
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: and perhaps on the yellow are dark friends, even though
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: he sees it in their eyes later so on much
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: service that I.
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: Could see Varn cluing him and not knowing he was
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: gonna get God's site.
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: That's where he gets information about Oslam. Maybe in the
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: caroline grass so and then the ones. Sorry, this is
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: a long article.
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: It is a long article. Thirteenth Depository is a very
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: brown auja thing.
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: Uh huh, So, I mean it feels like the one
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: who Alana was basically like they're coming for you, like
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: run girl, get out, and then later she ends up
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: in the Borderlands, which feels like maybe she didn't get
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: out in time and she got abducted with the letter.
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I always wondered if maybe Varon actually betrayed Alana,
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: like as a necessary lost leader foil thing. But yeah,
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: more likely she told Alana to get out and it
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: wasn't in time, or Alana got out and like ran
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: right into some other thing.
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: Because we know she ends up in Dark Friend hands
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: right with the she becomes she's in the cave with Morgan,
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: so Morden gets hold of her at some point. Is
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: it possible? I don't think the letter could be a
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: Dark Friend plot, right because they were or sealed the
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: blood Red thing.
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no, no, for sure. It's all Varren for sure.
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: And there is evidence of the Glad thing too.
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah that one I missed. Where's that?
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: It's even even farther down, it's just below a honest thing.
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: But paren sees Galad tucking something into his pocket, a
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: small letter. It appeared with a red seal. Where had
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: he gotten that? Then? The discussion below that says that
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: it's no idea who would have transmitted that, And it
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: looks like Goalod never opens it, so we don't really
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: know much more than that, but it does match the description,
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: so there's that reference.
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: Could be informing him that his brother is the Dragon Reborn.
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: Your mother ran off to the desert to give birth
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: to the Dragon Reborn. Sorry, bro, seriously, no, it maybe,
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: I mean because who knows what kind of Yeah, who
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: knows what kind of plots she's trying to stave off,
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: you know, like we don't know what moving parts she's
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: trying to anticipate that didn't fall out the way she
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: thought they would, and she's just trying to make sure
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: because she couldn't know that Gowan was going to communicate
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: that to Goalaude while he was dying, Right, that's totally
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: outside of what she could expect. So yeah, maybe she
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: thought it was important that he knowed that he have
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: a blood connection to the Dragon Reborn. But he also
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: hasn't opened the letter yet, so you know that maybe
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: is a fourth d Age revelation for him to come to
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: terms with as he's processing Gawain's death and all of that, right, right, fascinating, Well,
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: I love thirteenth depository. They go on and on, but man,
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: are they exhaustive.
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: They really they know a lot.
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: Like they don't go on and on meaninglessly. There's just
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: a lot of information to collect. And then at the
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: end of this Matt says, somebody burn that bench. I
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: cannot believe we cared it this far, which is a
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: nice little bookend to the comic thread running underneath this
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: whole conversation.
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: So he's just reading another thing about the letters, but
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: it had less information.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: So if it's not on thirteenthup pository, it's not going
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: to be anywhere else.
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: So then that's the end of that POV. And then
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: we switched to two on.
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: Then we go to Tuon, where we were all like,
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: did we get rid of Tuon? No, No, we just
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: upgraded her. We evolved her, we leveled her up. She
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: has a longer name now, even though it still has
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: tu On in the middle.
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: It's very the queen is dead, long lived the queen
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: mm hmmm mm.
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: Hmm, yeah for sure. And we join her as she
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: is blessing the blood knives that are part of the
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: Rating Party. The Rating Party is assembled and they're kind
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: of going through the final ceremonial preparations before taking off
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: m hm.
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: And these are the rings that Gowin ends up wearing.
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: These are how Agwain dies. Some of the rings that
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: Gawain takes off of these people turn into why Agwaine
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: has to go flame of Tarvallon at the end.
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: She didn't have to, she thinks.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: She did, and so that's what happened. But like, these
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: are the rings. These are the rings that Gawan makes
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: those choices with.
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: We can get this whole rating party assembled two hundred members.
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: So we got two hundred members of soldiers of the
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: Fists of Heavens.
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: That's soldiers, the most elite soldiers. These are like the
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: Navy seals of the sean Chan Army.
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: Fifty so Demani pairs. So that's one hundred people. Yeah,
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: is how I.
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: Read fifty channeling points? Well, it's fifty points of channeling power.
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: But yeah, one hundred people.
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: And then the hundreds of to Reichen to transport them,
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: as well as the five Blood knives.
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so three hundred and five at least, to say
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: nothing of the attendant support staff that has to come
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: with the rock and the flyers, right, like all of
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: that because they say that the trip will take several days.
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: So clearly a couple of rock and are coming along
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: just to carry supplies for the trip, right.
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and they all have pilots that are flying them, right,
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: and yeah.
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: Exactly, And they have to bring carrying capacity for the raid, right,
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: they're going to get people that is space, that is weight. Right,
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: you have to leave space on your carrier to bring
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: the human cargo back if the raid goes successfully, So
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: they have to budget that too. And the trip back
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: will take just as long as the trip out right
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: in theory.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: Right, and you see needs and you're not foraging along
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: the way, so you need supplies the whole way out
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: and back.
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: Right. So yeah, there's a lot more than three hundred
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: and five people going, but three hundred and five people
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: are going to do the dirty work of the empire.
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: And they're going in secret because they figured out that
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: like the enemy has the gateways or talking in dreams, right,
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: like they're like information is traveling way quicker than it should,
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: Like we have flyers and they're still out pacing us.
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: So we're doing this in secret, so nobody We're leaving
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: before dawn so no one can see us fly away
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: and we're telling anybody about it, and we're going to
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: just you know, stay away from civilization the whole way there.
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: And presumably fly at night instead of during the day
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: and rest during the day, you know.
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: And this is where they're flying over the Caroline grass.
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: They're really cutting across that abandoned area that paren was
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: Agwayne were lost in because they're just it's wilderness. There's
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: nothing there between Falma and Sean Chan.
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: Right and a grass. He is just as barren as
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: the ocean or a desert in so many ways, like
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: you need a way to fast travel across it. There's
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: nothing there for you as a person.
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: Falma and Tarbalan.
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: There we go geography, geography. But yeah, she's hoping that
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: three hundred people and their attendant staff come back. Those five.
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: Those five are meant to stay and do as much
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: damage as possible before they die. That's their entire mission
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: is just to be destructive, wrecking balls and then explode
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: in a blaze of glory.
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: They were terrible out by the way they were like
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: killing like one person a day and like hiding in
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: the shadows for ages. Well, they were targeting the ambulance seat.
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: I think is the deal exactly. They were trying to
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: figure out how to get to the ombrelance seat, and
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: they figured that killing some eyes to die as test
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: runs was a fine two birds with one scone situation.
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: But yeah, the pure black stone ring each one wore
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: was a specialized tear on real would grant them strength
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: and speed, and would shroud them in darkness, allowing them
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: to blood in the shadows. The incredible abilities came at
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: a cost, however, for the rings leached life from their hosts,
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: killing them in a matter of days. Removing the ring
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: would slow that process slightly, but once activated, done by
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: touching a drop one's own blood to the stone ring
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: while wearing it, the process was irreversible. You idiot, Gowen.
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: I do like that. We know how dumb Gowen is
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: being from the very beginning, right, he gets the information
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: at the last minute. But I like that we get
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: the full download here, so that way, as soon as
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: he sees those rings and reaches for them, we're all
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: collectively screaming. I do like that order of information unveils.
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: And I believe she would know the word taran greol. Right,
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: she knows, I said, I like she that's you know,
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: they're aware of on Grell and Taran Griol and that
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: sort of thing.
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm pretty sure they know that the Adom are Tarangrel, we're.
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: Arthur hawk Wings. Honestly didn't split off that long ago.
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: It was a thousand years, I think, yeah, because it
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: was that was when the calendar started and we're up
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: to the year one thousand by the time that the
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: books are happening, And it was Arder Hawkwing who started
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: the new calendar, so it was a while ago, a
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: thousand years. I mean a lot's happened in a thousand
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: years in our timeline, in our world a thousand years ago.
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: But considering common is one language that everybody speaks everywhere,
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: and it hasn't changed. And that's the only change that's
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: happened in three thousand years.
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: I know, I know, we still do know about aquatics.
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: We we still use Roman aqueducts and bridges, Roman bridges that
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: people still travel across. It blows my mind.
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: And they didn't even have the power when constructing them.
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: No they didn't. I mean they had some kind of power,
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: but not.
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: That slave power. Hey.
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: Well, and also really cool chemistry that we took us
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: a long time to rediscovery sure their cement that was supertastic.
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: Was it a needed salt water in order to set
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: super hard? And no one knew that in more modern
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: times until someone was like, wait a second, wait a second.
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: So that wasn't slave power, but everything else that they
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: did was. It's like, look, I love the Roman Empire.
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: I'm one of those people who's obsessed with the Roman Empire,
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: but like as a slave empire, like that everything was
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: slave powered.
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: Then they define their slaves differently than we.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: Do, but very differently. American chattel slavery was a serious
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: upgrades the wrong word, but it was a new turning
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: of the wheel on what slavery had been before. For sure,
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: Roman slavery was a completely different beast, with so many
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: different levels that don't have modern analogs. They will soon
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: if our electic overdoords have their way.
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: I don't know, office of office work, factory work. Uh.
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: I feel like the analog is there, maybe maybe maybe
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: we shouldn't look into that too closely because history probably
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: has nothing to teach us.
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: Anyway, Oh God, anyway, back to a fantasy world.
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so Fortuana thinks about how killing demani instead of
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: leashing them is a terrible waste. But anything to deprive
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: the dragon reborn of resources is worth it, which is
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: just wrong on.
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: So many levels.
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so many levels.
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: One, the rate actually gives him resources.
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: As you were saying last time, Rand did not have
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: the eyes to eye as a resource. They really were
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: not a resource to him, Like if anything, Yeah, you
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: drove them closer.
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: To him doing this, because now they follow a leader
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: who's closer to him, although you can argue that Awayin
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: isn't super close to Rand anymore.
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: There's really everything about Fortruona's two ones rationale here is
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: just it's wrong. Premise wrong, conclusions wrong end result. Like
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: she's just wrong. She's just wrong, and she's morally wrong
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: while doing it.
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm, I love her. A little of the common
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: people walked more confidently more. Oh my god, they had
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: an empress again. With all that was wrong in the world,
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: this one thing was right again. Yeah. I mean, on
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: one level, you do want to know somebody's in charge
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: and it's not chaos at the top. But at the
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: same time, like, I don't think people are like yay
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: empress is I don't know these.
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: People were doing fine without an empress. I think we
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: were talking about Sean Chan, then maybe that would help.
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: But we're not talking about Sean Cham. We're talking about
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: the city that you colonized like two weeks ago, invaded
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: and conquered like two weeks ago, a month ago. This
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: is No. They are not more confident because the joved
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: Imprus like now, they're more confident because Bestln hasn't been
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: executed the way his mother mysteriously was right, if anything,
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: And I don't know that they are more confident. I
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: think you're projecting because you need to believe.
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: We're in Abudar not Falma, right which which city are
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: we in? Right now?
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: We're in Abudar, Ebudar, Okay, But the point stance like.
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: Yes, sorry, I was just I was saying Falma earlier
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: because I got.
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: Oh, I didn't even notice because I know what city
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: we're in. I'm just like, I'm not even registering that.
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: But but yeah, it's I think she's projecting mostly. I
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: think that she feels better and so she sees people
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: feeling better. It's just like she's like wants the blood
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: to know that the that she saw three dew drops
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: fall off of a fresh spring rose this morning, And
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: I'm just like so you're running your empire off of them,
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: has had a nice walk in the gardens and thought
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: of something to tell you that fit in with your
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: omen structure, so that way you'd feel good about going
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: to the office today and doing war crimes. Like I
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: just I don't need your empire. Your empire is dumb.
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: So we get a description of the battle how they're
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: gonna you know, this is all foreshadowing for the battle
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: where they're just going to be like attack the tower
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: itself with people channeling from the backs of the rockin
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: instead of dropping the soldiers off at a point and
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: then attacking on the ground, They're literally going to be
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: like flying and channeling in the air, which is like
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: kind of a cool foreshadowing and nice to see what's
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: going to happen.
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: I do enjoy getting to see the battle from two perspectives,
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: getting to see all these planning and logistics stages and
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: then see what it's like on the ground. For the
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: other side. It's again Sanderson's ability to make battles something
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: I can follow in a blow by blow away. This
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: is part of that too.
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: And his build up to it, right that this is
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: really what makes the same so exciting, right, is like
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: we're really building to this battle and getting all the
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: planning for it, and like in a lot of ways,
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: we are all we can see the battle winding up
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: as everyone is just deciding, yes, we are doing this,
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: and then that accumulates in a really cool battle at
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: the end and we know it's coming, and so it's like,
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: oh yeah, that's that to me is the quintessential sander
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: Lanch is getting you excited for a battle that you
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: know is coming and seeing both sides gear up for it.
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: And this is great practice for all of us author
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: and readers alike for the Last Battle, Like this battle
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: at the White Tower has been in the works for
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: a while. It's a warm up round. It'd be like,
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: all right, how are we going to do these big
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: Titanic battles that actually pit like the White Tower versus
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: the Sean Shan Like this is this is huge, and
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: we're gonna have a series of these scale battles for
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: the Last Battle, Like we need a we need a
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: warm up round. We can't just go right into it.
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: And I like the way they do it where it's
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: not like all the forces of the shan Chan against
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: all the forces of the White Tower It's like it's
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: a small raiding party to do damage, to take prisoners,
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: you know, unexpectedly, so you know, you don't get the like,
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: oh my god, the shan Chan could totally overwhelm the
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: White Tower if they're because they have so many channelers
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: and but like the White Tower is far away and
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: I don't know, it's just I like the way this works.
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: I like the way it shows growth on both sides
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: without like crushing one side or the other.
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: Right. I also like how the shan Chan puts so
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: many of their really valuable assets into this basket, and
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: thinking of all the rockin and toe rockin and the
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: so yeah and the like, they risk a lot of
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: their like material essentially, right, this is a lot of
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: this is the wealth of the shan Chan Empire rather
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: than the scale really like, and they're risking a lot.
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: If all of these to rockin and suldom go down,
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: their entire fighting force on the side of the ocean
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: will be severely impacted.
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: This is their fighter jet force, right. But they're not
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: sending in any ground troops, and so they put all
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: the money and all the effort into you know, building
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: the fighter jets with the missiles on the back of them,
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: and the missiles cost a lot of money, and the
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: fighter jets costs a lot of money. And it's a
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: small force, but it's fighter jets in a world of
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: you know, cannons.
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: Right right, And then Aguayine goes and knocks a lot
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: of them out of the sky on their way out,
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: and it's just like that's so like a billion dollars
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: per hit. Man, Like, wow, that's gonna hurt and and.
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: And that's her goal. Her goal is to make it
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: costly for them to raid, right, that's her whole goal.
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And and I like that the sean Chen are
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: able to be hurt that bad by this. Like that
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: I think is it makes it satisfying on both sides,
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: because yeah, the White Tower itself is like super trashed
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: igwayin almost gets taken. But like the shan Chan lose
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: multiple rockin with several suol dam on them like that,
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: it's not nothing.
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: So you're saying they're on a on a highway to
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: the danger zone.
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: No, I mean, unfortunately, the shan Chan do see the
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: raid as successful. They do consider the cost to be acceptable,
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: which is frustrating. But I do like that the cost
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: is high even if they're just willing to accept it.
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: I can't control that, but I can be happy that
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: the cost was high.
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: And we never do we ever get final numbers on
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: exactly how many women they took. I feel like we
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: do when she's going down the raid with the book
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: of all the like dark Friend taken dead, that sort
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: of thing.
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we get I think we get a
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: couple of different fragmentary references to it. It's a lot.
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: It's a big chunk of the towers. Fortuna is very
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: happy with how many channeler new channelers she gets to
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: put leashes on, so it's a lot. But yeah, I
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: do think we get numbers at some point.
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: I always look at them, like, man, how many Channelers
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: of the White Tower can there be left? Right? Because
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: you had a thousand at the beginning of the split,
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: and then we get described like three hundred are basically neutral,
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: three hundred are in the Rebel Tower, and three hundred
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: stay in the tower, and then a fifth of those
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: are killed because for being Dark Friends, and then a
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: chunk of those of the ones in the White Tower
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: are taken.
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: Well, a lot of the people taken in the raid
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: are not full is to die, but they are considered
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: full marath Demani by the numbers. The number, Yeah, the
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: numbers really change. The Shaun chin say, we got so
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: many channelers the Isidye, we lost so many of this
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: kind of category of channeler. So there's a slight discrepancy
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: there because even novices count as far as the Shawn
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: Channer concerned, but they don't for the I mean they
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: count for the iside, but they are not Isidie.
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: But between those big numbers and then just the individuals
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: I said, eye we see die right like, we see
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: a lot of them die between rand or you know,
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: get captured by Ran that sort of thing. There can
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: only be like one hundred iceid Eye left in the
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: freaking tower.
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: Good thing has like a thousand fresh novices not in
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: the tower at the time of the raid able to
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: come in and repopulate the tower. Seriously, can you imagine
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: if she had reconciled the tower before, there would have
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: been so many more targets for the raid. But no,
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: all of those other women were safely on the other
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: side of the river.
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: You know, I think how big of a circle, how
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: many circles they could have had if they had all
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: the novices working together.
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, maybe they could have repelled the raid entirely,
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: the what ifs they hurt. The one last thing in
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: the chapter I wanted to ask you about is how
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: much do you agree about the difference with Rand being
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: against them versus them being against Rand. Do you think
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: that's a meaningful distinction or is it just two on
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: being fancy pants again?
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: No, I do think it's a meaningful distinction because Rand
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: is willing to sue for peace. He's willing. He comes
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: back to them with meetings, and he doesn't turn. He
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: doesn't exterminate them the way he could. However, this raid
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: on the White Tower doesn't and him against them either, right, Like,
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: there is no difference because this is not the thing
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: that he essentially goes away and becomes calmer and comes
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: back and is like, all right, I know we had disagreements. Sure,
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: I'll about down cool. Now will you do what I say? Now?
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: Will you ally with me? Right? There is this moment
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: of like he doesn't really give a shit about the
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: raid on the White Tower. He's kind of like, I'm disappointed,
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: but I'm not mad.
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I agree. I feel like the difference would
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: be meaningful if Rand and the White Tower had a
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: different relationship. Like academically, theoretically, this is an important difference. Practically,
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: in this specific context it is meaningless.
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: And in a lot of ways it's helpful because it
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: gets the White Tower united behind Agwayne, who you know,
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: quote unquote allies with him.
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: I mean, she doesn't go over to the dark One,
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: so right, you know.
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: And he uses her, right, he uses her to gather
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: all of the enemies of his philosophy and then convinces
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: her to be his ally. And that's how he can
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: misses everybody else to support him. Right, that's his whole
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: trick to get everybody on his side at the Fields
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: of Marillor the first.
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: Time, which is great because he uses her as the
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: Omorlin Seat, which is just such a dragon reborn. It's
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: not like he's using a Gwain. He's using the amor Aline.
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: Totally, totally. No, it's it's hold on, it's hold on.
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So yeah, that's all I have aside.
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: From doing a readout, Yeah, go for it.
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: Rocin and to Rockin were not normally used in this manner.
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: Most raids would be accomplished by dropping the soldiers off
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: at a staging point where the toe rocan would wait
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: while the soldiers attacked and returned. But this raid was
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: too vital Yulon's plan called for a more daring assault,
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: the likes of which had rarely been contemplated, to rocin
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: with Demani and sold them on their backs, attacking from
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: the air. It could be the beginning of a bold
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: new tactic, or it could lead to a disaster. We
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: have changed everything. Fortune on A said softly, General, how
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: gone is wrong? This will not give the dragon reborn
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: a worst bargaining position. It will turn him against us.
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: And was he not against us before? So, Lucia asked, no,
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: fortun Wana said, we were against him. And there is
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: a difference, yes, Fortuana said, Watching the cloud of toe
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: rockin just barely visible in the sky, there is I
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: fear we shall soon see just how big a difference
• 58:28
  Speaker 2: that is.
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: Do you have anything interesting you want to talk about
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: for the life stuff news? I do think we have
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: a few new patreons, but I have not prepped that.
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: But we should think about doing that for the next episode.
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: Hm, we should? We should? I don't know. I've got
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: a lot of status podcasts for stuff going on. I've
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: mentioned before I'm doing Used to Sew podcast with my
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: mom about sewing machines, sewing culture, and sewing history. That's
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: going great. She started sharing the podcast into some of
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: her sewing machine groups recently, and suddenly we're getting a
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: flood of fan mail from people like we had not
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: been getting. So I'm really excited to go look at
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: the at the stats and see how our download numbers
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: are going up because we I've gotten like four emails
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: in the last two days of people being like love
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: the podcast, oh oh, oh, dear, oh good to refer
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: to what we were talking about before recording, the twin
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: desires to both put your creativity out there and also
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: to not be perceived. It's like, oh no, people are
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: fighting the podcast. I'm scared now. But also that was
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: the point. That was what we wanted. We asked for this.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: Like oh no, success, no, no, I have.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: This podcast that's a different audience. The overlap of between
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: the sewing machine world and the world is very small.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: I do know that there are some people like Jesus
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: Jesus Ferengi from this here very server is a big
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: fan of Use to Sew, but as a general rule,
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: pretty separate worlds so it's like, oh no, a whole
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: new contingent of people with a different worldview and a
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: different way of approaching podcasts is now perceiving me, and
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: what if they don't like me all over again. But
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: it's a very fun podcast and we're having a lot
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: of fun.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: With it, and I'm very proud of you from branching
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: out from the fantasy book world. That's, you know, a
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: hard world to break out of, because it's very easy
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: to just do another book series as a podcast, right,
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: and something we've talked about.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: But yeah, no, it was my mom's idea. You know.
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: She's like, I have all these rants about sewing machines
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: that I want to go on and so I was like, okay,
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: let's let's plug in and do that. But it's been
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: really fun. I'm it's like I can identify sewing machines now, Like,
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: if you show me a singer sewing machine, I'm gonna
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: be able to tell you so many things about it,
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: k just because she keeps info dumping at me, and
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: then I edit the info dumps and it's really fun.
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: So I'm by the time you've done, you no fair
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: amount about the I'm.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: Learning so much stuff along with the audience. It's really
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: really cool. It's getting me in my sewing room a
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: little bit more too. Like she comes over, I'm like, Okay,
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: what are we sewing? Or like last time she was here,
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: she was guiding me through refinishing a sewing machine cabinet
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: that's for a machine that she's gonna bring me later.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 2: And yeah, I'm just really getting into like mending a
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: bunch of Brandon's clothes that I've been not really getting
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: around for a while. And so it's like suddenly he
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: has like new garments because they've been out of circulation
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: for months and now they have returned, and he's like, ah,
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: I can wear these pants again because you know, I've
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: done some cool visible mending on the holes in the pockets.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: And yeah, we've got all kinds of projects that we're
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: planning on doing the summer, which will inevitably turn into
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: podcast content. You know. It's like this whole spiral thing
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: if every time we get together and do sewing stuff,
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: for like, is this a thing that could be podcastable?
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: And not in that like hustle monetization thing, right, but
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: just in they're like, Oh, we're having so much fun,
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: can we share this is this a thing that's shareable,
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: and yeah, we're we're on a mission to fight fast
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: Fashion's that's the all we are. We are on a
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: mission to find fast fashion in its bed and stab it.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: You're all about the repair and the reuse.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, upcycle, the thrift, the repurposing. I'm like halfway through
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: a project where I got a whole bunch of really
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: large T shirts secondhand, like just whatever size of colors
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: that I liked, because I'm gonna I have now, and
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: now I've cut them up part into just sheets of
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: material that I can then use to make my own garments.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: Like I want to make a whole bunch of very
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: specific undershirts. I'm like, okay, if I buy large T shirts, Yeah,
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: just the back piece alone that's just solid purple, is
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: like a shirt of the size that I want. So
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: I'm like halfway through that project. I have a bunch
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: of disassembled shirts that needs to be recombined into new garments.
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: But it's really fun being motivated because and also the
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: fun thing you really tied into the whole autism world.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: We're doing parallel play essentially. When she comes out here,
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: we're like, okay, we're each gonna work on our own projects,
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: ask each other for help with stuff, like she needs
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: my help with like cutting things because she has carpal
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: tunnel obviously, and then she helps me with like, wait,
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: how do I throw this machine? How do I set this?
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: I just learned recently you're supposed to drop the feed
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: dogs when you do buttonholes. And this is why all
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: of my buttonholes look like they got showed up on
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: the back is because I was leaving the feed dogs
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: up and I wasn't supposed to do that, And like
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 2: I even tell you how many buttonholes I've made incorrectly.
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: But it's just really fun to like do that autistic
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: thing where we're like, we actually get a lot more
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 2: done when we're hanging out because we're doing parallel play
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: and actually getting through our giant basket of projects and
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: then getting inspired to try new projects. And yeah, it's
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: just really fun. And you can get a peak of that,
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 2: a sense of that vibe by listening to the podcast
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: used to sew Linked As always in the show notes,
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: you can hear me and my mom having that vibe
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: mostly info dumping rather than crafting, but we often info
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: dump about crafting, mostly as an esoteric sense. It's not
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: a crafting podcast. I can now get your hot gu gun.
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: It's more crafting podcasts. And now go into your closet
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: and find a project and tell us about it when
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: you're you know, mostly we've lately been talking about sewing machines.
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: But in any case, if you want to hear what
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: that whole vibe is like when I'm not talking about
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: Wheel of Time, you can go to that podcast feed instead.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: That's what I have to report.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: That's awesome.
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: What about you? You have life? Telling me earlier that
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 2: the dog is behaving better as a pod dog.
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, so yeah, Harvey is. I mean, we're
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: going on now three months. Today is his eleventh month
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: birth day, so he's eleven month, eleven months old today,
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: and yeah, he's just he's turning into a slightly better dog.
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: Still has some issues with jumping up on people and
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: sort of nipping. He likes to sort of if he
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: doesn't get the attention he thinks he deserves, he will
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: sort of like nip at people to get their attention,
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: which can be anything from catching on their clothes to
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: like biting their nipple. So we're still working on that
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: because that's a really bad behavior, and so it's we're
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: actually like not letting him greet people on the street
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: right now because it's like you have proven yourself untrustworthy.
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: But other than that, he is, you know, settling much faster.
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: He's a much calmer dog for figuring each other out.
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: He hasn't had any accidents inside, and he's just being
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 1: a very sweet, very loving dog like he you know,
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: loves to cuddle. He's right now, he's laying at my feet.
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: He just hates that right now me never aren't in
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: the same room. So he's like coming in and saying, hey,
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 1: you get up and go over there, and then he like,
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: you know, he wants everybody together. So he's turned into
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: a very sweet He's growing quite a bit. He is
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: at eleven months. He is now sixty two pounds. When
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: I got him, he was forty eight pounds eight months,
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: So that's I've been about a pound a week pretty
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 1: consistently in the three months we've had him, and so
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: that hasn't really slowed down. So we'll see, we'll see.
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: You know, it's one of those things where a pound
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: a week is hard to really judge exactly when that
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: rate slows down. It's a pretty slow rate. We've only
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: had him three months, so the data points are few
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: and far between, and all the graphs say, you know,
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: he's probably gonna max out around seventy five pounds. But yeah,
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: so I'm still holding to seventy five pounds is the max.
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: But yeah, there's a right. Sometimes they say the bigger
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: dogs can keep growing for like two years. Right, And
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: I think he's got some mastiff in him. And here
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: he's in and out again. By the way, Okay, I'm
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: gonna shut the tail.
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: No, he's he's sweet, and he's a pretty dog, and
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: he's got he's very healthy, right, no skin issues or
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: anything like that.
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: He's just he's learning to be a pod dog.
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: He's learning to be a pod dog. Pictures, picture updates. Okay, pictures,
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 1: let's see. Let me pull up the photos and then
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: I promise we'll get into this chapter. I'm sorry we've
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: been a.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: I'm talking to him, but it's only into your headphone.
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's him. He picked up the bark off
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 1: a tree that fell off a tree.
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: He looks like he's wearing a raccoon maskers.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, totally, he has his mask. Let's see
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: here's him sleeping on his bed on the porch.
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 2: Oh, and his butt has the same coloring as his face.
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: That's so funny.
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: Here he is chilling in his crate, which he loves.
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: It's not a punishment for him. He just likes to
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: hang out in there.
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 2: No, that's really good to have a dog just like
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 2: their crate. My brother's dog is like that. She just
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 2: goes to her crate when she's had enough of everyone else.
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: And then there's him in a distance kind of playing
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: with another dog that they were just having a blast.
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: Here he is waiting to be go out for a walk.
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 2: He's just so elegant.
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's long, he's got like Yeah, but if Timber
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: had a hyena body, he had these sort of a
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: short butt and like long legs their short button short legs,
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: and like big broad chest.
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 2: He had tall shoulders, big barrel chest and little tiny hits.
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Harvey definitely has I call it a lion's body,
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: sort of long back legs, loping and even even height across.
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and just that dark face against the fawn body
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 2: is just that white stripe.
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: And then a white stripe right down the middle right,
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 1: so it really does split his face in the half. Yeah, no,
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: he does. He looks like two different dogs, right, Like
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: he looks like a pit bull from.
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 2: The two dogs.
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and he looks like, uh, I think he looks
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: like a mastiff from the neck down.
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah. He reminds me a lot of a mastiff
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: that I knew pretty recently. Just just something about just
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 2: the chunky, nankiness that is very very.
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: Mastiff, which is why I'm like, I'm not sure how
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: big he's going to be, because mastiffs can keep growing
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: for a while, you know.
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, those are big, long legs. You're gonna have a big,
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: long dog body on.
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: Top, right, So keep you guys updated about the dog news.
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: But yes, he is. He is. Still he's a bit
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: of a beast and a monster. But we take him
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: to the dog park almost every day. He runs his
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: butt off, he's learning tricks incredibly quickly. He's just he's
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: very very smart, very very trainable, and eager to please,
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: very eager to please.
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: Ugly and clingy and yeah, the.
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 1: Old on the issue is he needs to needs constant stimulation,
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: and so it's very difficult for him to chill out
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: for a minute. We still haven't really mastered the HD dog. Yeah, totally, totally,
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: And he's just entering that phase of everyone who says,
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: yeah dogs from like six months, you know, you see
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 1: what is the meme I've seen, which is like one
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: to six months, little puppy, six months to three years,
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 1: velociraptor three years to you know, old age, you know,
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: sweet dog, right, and he's in the velociraptor stage right now.
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: For sure.
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: It seems like all social creatures really have like an
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: absolutely bonkers velociraptor phase. Like every creature that has a
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 2: lot of like socialness as part of its existence, and
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 2: they're intelligent, they care about the other individuals in their group,
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 2: like they've all got a Hellian phase. It's just it's
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 2: just part of growing up as a social person. And yes,
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 2: some my guests do never hit the sweet dog phase,
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 2: but in theory.
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And he's got the cutest little ears. And he's
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: got this long tail with a white tip that he
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: like holds up like a flag, which doesn't really show
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: in any of the pictures I posted. He's got a
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 1: super long.
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 2: Tail, coffee table danger tail.
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but he's pretty it's he doesn't swing it too
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: bad because he holds it up mostly oh.
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Okay, I see in that picture that's definitely
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: not straight out, that's arcing.
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, anyway, that's that's dog news. Dog. Do I
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: miss the hell out of Timber? Yeah all the time.
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: He's he was my special guy for a long long time.
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 2: Gone but not forgotten. No, he was the first pod dog,
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 2: but no reason for him to be the last because dog.
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: Mm hm no. Yeah, and it's like it's I can't
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: live my life without a dog. I always have. Yeah.
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 1: Did you hear that?
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So he wants attention all the time.
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 2: Speaking of attention, attention.
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 1: Well, we should pay attention to the book series that
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: we're reading.
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to the Wheel of Times podcast.
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 2: Please rate and review us on your podcast app, and
• 1:12:03
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• 1:12:08
  Speaker 2: Spoilers is a production of Fox and Raven Media. For
• 1:12:11
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• 1:12:14
  Speaker 2: at Foxendravenmedia dot com.