Latest / The Refrigeration Mentor Podcast / Episode 265. CO2 Experts Live: Startup & Commissioning a CO2 Heat Pump with Erik Holland

Transcript

Episode 265. CO2 Experts Live: Startup & Commissioning a CO2 Heat Pump with Erik Holland · The Refrigeration Mentor Podcast

• 0:02
  Trevor: Welcome to another CO2 experts live. Super excited about this session, hanging out with my good friend. Eric Holland. We were hanging out earlier in August super. Great conversation about co2. This guy's an expert in co2. He's been doing it for decades and he's been in the field So from the manufacturer learning how to set it up and design it and engineer it to out in the field Doing the startups and the latest the latest Systems he's working on is co2 heat pumps and i'm super excited to dive in this So if you have any questions put it in the chat if you're listening on the podcast Send some comments in because we really want to grow your knowledge here eric.
• 0:03
  Trevor: Welcome to another CO2 experts live. Super excited about this session, hanging out with my good friend. Eric Holland. We were hanging out earlier in August super. Great conversation about co2. This guy's an expert in co2. He's been doing it for decades and he's been in the field So from the manufacturer learning how to set it up and design it and engineer it to out in the field Doing the startups and the latest the latest Systems he's working on is co2 heat pumps and i'm super excited to dive in this So if you have any questions put it in the chat if you're listening on the podcast Send some comments in because we really want to grow your knowledge here eric.
• 0:03
  Welcome to co2 experts. How you doing, brother?
• 0:03
  Erik: Thank you. Trevor. I'm good and good. Always a pleasure to to talk with you. Yeah, it's a it's a nice day for talking about some co2 business here. We talked about talking about all this heat pumps and starting up and everything, but maybe I should just start by telling me everybody who I am.
• 0:03
  Trevor: Yeah.
• 0:03
  Erik: I work for, for Advancer. I'm in currently in, in, in the after sales service departments where I Pick up a phone calls for customers and try to help them out with the systems and we help them start up our systems and troubleshooting and yeah, making things work out in the field basically.
• 0:03
  Part of that is, is also to, yeah, do help the customers commissioning and train the customers in, in, in using the racks, and especially training them in, in CO2 in general. So at the moment, I'm sitting here in our training facility. We got a, a rack here behind me. We can, we can play with with all the all the students and we can teach 'em.
• 0:04
  Part of that is, is also to, yeah, do help the customers commissioning and train the customers in, in, in using the racks, and especially training them in, in CO2 in general. So at the moment, I'm sitting here in our training facility. We got a, a rack here behind me. We can, we can play with with all the all the students and we can teach 'em.
• 0:04
  So that's super great
• 0:04
  Trevor: for those who don't know Eric. He was instrumental in the transition with hill Phoenix. He came over, he worked with the team down here in Atlanta for a long time on their controls back. And when, when was that back in 2011, 20,
• 0:04
  Erik: that was back.
• 0:04
  Trevor: Yeah. So, so he's also all the equipment that you're working on.
• 0:04
  If you work on any hill Phoenix, your CO2 or advancer, Eric was a big part with Scott Martin and the team down there working together to develop the North American CO2 system. So this guy knows his stuff on CO2. So I'm super excited to get into the CO2 heat pumps because this is something that has been, it's not new.
• 0:04
  But it's continually starting to grow because electrification, and this is important for contractors and technicians to know because when they start to see more and more of it, there's some differences versus the HFC heat pumps they would've seen in the past.
• 0:05
  But it's continually starting to grow because electrification, and this is important for contractors and technicians to know because when they start to see more and more of it, there's some differences versus the HFC heat pumps they would've seen in the past.
• 0:05
  Erik: Yeah. It, it's, it's an, it's a new thing. It's, yeah, it's a new thing.
• 0:05
  As an old thing. We have known for a long time, we just, we basically just called it heat reclaim systems. But the primary function there was was not the heating part that was the cooling part. But now we have the market is moving a bit. So now it's becoming interesting to make bigger units, which which are dedicated for for heating either for for.
• 0:05
  Just locally heating your, your, your factory or heating your, your, your community or your big hotel facility resources, what a resort and whatever you have. So, so now the market has shifted a bit. So now we have dedicated Control equipment and, and the hardware to do the heat pumps.
• 0:05
  Trevor: Yeah. And this is what's exciting about CO2 because it's starting to change.
• 0:05
  We know, and I talked about it many times on the, our, our CO2 shows is that CO2 is one of the best heat transfer refrigerant. There's a lot of heat in CO2. And when you use, utilize it properly, you can get warmer hotter temperatures than older HFC refrigerants. That correct, Eric.
• 0:06
  We know, and I talked about it many times on the, our, our CO2 shows is that CO2 is one of the best heat transfer refrigerant. There's a lot of heat in CO2. And when you use, utilize it properly, you can get warmer hotter temperatures than older HFC refrigerants. That correct, Eric.
• 0:06
  Erik: That is for the older frequency, you usually, like ammonia, you get a, you can get a lot of heat of ammonia, but you get it in a different way and from, from different heat sources when, when we're talking like distributed he heating systems and everything, the return temperatures and, and and, and delivery temperatures are a bit different.
• 0:06
  So we need some different equipment. And here in this segment CO2 is, is, is quite good and can deliver quite hot water. To, to, to your city or to your factory. The new system we make can make up to 95 degrees water outlet from it. So you can, that will, that will be your almost 200 degrees Fahrenheit.
• 0:06
  Yeah.
• 0:06
  Trevor: Yeah. Erik: So. We could deliver an enormous amount of heat from whatever heat source you got so that could be either your, your, we heat the return water from the distributed heating system, or you can have a heat source like, just like a normal air to air heat pump you know, from, from your home installations, or it could be as interesting things like exploring heat sources like Waste heat from, from factories or waste heat from water treatment plants or for biogas reactors, so all the waste heat from that, you can, you can extract that heat.
• 0:07
  Erik: So. We could deliver an enormous amount of heat from whatever heat source you got so that could be either your, your, we heat the return water from the distributed heating system, or you can have a heat source like, just like a normal air to air heat pump you know, from, from your home installations, or it could be as interesting things like exploring heat sources like Waste heat from, from factories or waste heat from water treatment plants or for biogas reactors, so all the waste heat from that, you can, you can extract that heat.
• 0:07
  And put into, into, into your heat pump and use it for, yeah, distributed heating or production heating or whatever you need.
• 0:07
  Trevor: So there's a lot of, a lot of applications and we're going to see more and more of this. And so you have been to multiple startups. You, you, like I talked with the team when I was at Chalmenta, you've been working with the team, you've been learning about it, but you're actually out in the field with the contractors, what is the difference between your.
• 0:08
  Trevor: So there's a lot of, a lot of applications and we're going to see more and more of this. And so you have been to multiple startups. You, you, like I talked with the team when I was at Chalmenta, you've been working with the team, you've been learning about it, but you're actually out in the field with the contractors, what is the difference between your.
• 0:08
  Startup of a CO2 transcritical booster rack to now a heat pump, because you guys got tens of thousands of installations on your booster system. So for refrigeration, but now going to heat pumps, there are some differences when you're going to do a startup. Is that correct?
• 0:08
  Erik: There are differences, but basically it is same, same.
• 0:08
  Because it's still a refrigeration cycle you have to make working. So all the basic stuff are the same. You still have compressors. You still have valves. You have gauges and instruments and control equipment. That is all the same. But it's just how we use them. And for heat pumps, we also usually, nowadays, we have a lot of external equipment that we are not in control of.
• 0:08
  It could be for for water to water heat pump. We, we don't have, we don't have control of the, of the complete water circuit. So in that case, we rely on, on other contractors to, to have their, their things in order and oven working. And yeah, so that's just a lot of a lot of layers in it. But basically it is it is to be treated as, as a big refrigeration unit.
• 0:09
  It could be for for water to water heat pump. We, we don't have, we don't have control of the, of the complete water circuit. So in that case, we rely on, on other contractors to, to have their, their things in order and oven working. And yeah, so that's just a lot of a lot of layers in it. But basically it is it is to be treated as, as a big refrigeration unit.
• 0:09
  It's just a, yeah, multi megawatt unit. So it's just a big, big unit, but basically the same as we used to.
• 0:09
  Trevor: Yeah. And that's the thing, right? It's just, when we get into these industrial heat pumps or large commercial heat pumps, because when I talk with people do like commercial, and then they talk about Iraq, it's like, Oh, it's so big, you know, it's like almost industrial, but then you go into the industrial, it's just big, it's just more.
• 0:09
  It's just more cooling or more heating that we're doing. And it's just, so you've got bigger compressors, you've got bigger valves, you've got bigger vessels, but refrigeration, when we come back, it's doing all the same thing.
• 0:09
  Erik: It's doing the same thing. Yeah. So there's all the, all the safety functions, all the basic, how you load your compressors and, and all that stuff is basically the same as no difference.
• 0:09
  So if you, if you know your groundwork, It's not a big step to go into, to heat pumps,
• 0:09
  Trevor: but that's the thing is, is are you do as a technician or a contractor getting in CO2? It's nothing is no different than what you were installing for the last 20 years. Those processes need to be the same. You're pulling an evacuation down below 200 microns, you know, get it, making sure you pressure test everything.
• 0:10
  Trevor: but that's the thing is, is are you do as a technician or a contractor getting in CO2? It's nothing is no different than what you were installing for the last 20 years. Those processes need to be the same. You're pulling an evacuation down below 200 microns, you know, get it, making sure you pressure test everything.
• 0:10
  Codes and standards, making sure you test all the inputs and outputs. And we're going to talk about this stuff here going on, but we want to dive into some of the, some of the stories that Eric has and some of the systems that he's already worked on with contractors on how to start up, because I've worked with and talked with so many people from advanced, I do tons of training on advanced or equipment because if you follow their processes, it's like all the other manufacturers.
• 0:10
  They send you guides. Like me and Eric, we're talking about earlier, here's a step by step guide on. If you do check one, check two, check three, check four. And you do all those checks before they come. If they're hired to come in to do the startup with you or hired a startup assist and all those checks are done, that startup is going to go super smooth.
• 0:11
  They send you guides. Like me and Eric, we're talking about earlier, here's a step by step guide on. If you do check one, check two, check three, check four. And you do all those checks before they come. If they're hired to come in to do the startup with you or hired a startup assist and all those checks are done, that startup is going to go super smooth.
• 0:11
  Erik: Exactly. Exactly. So we try to, we try to, to, to make it as easy as possible for, for, for the installers, because we don't want to spend a lot of time on the phone with, with installers, uh, asking questions. We can also answer the same questions a million times. It's so much easier to, to just state it in a manual, in an easy, readable way easy, understandable.
• 0:11
  So just a step by step guide. So. Everybody with a basic understanding can, can, can do this. That's, that's one of our goals in this. And that's also why we here at, at, at, at the factory do a lot of prechecks on all the equipment. So every, every single rack coming out of here is, is fairly tested and software is, is, is installed and set up and every single, you know, sensor or valves or whatever have been tested.
• 0:11
  That it actually works. So we are quite sure that when you get out there, it's. It's going to, it's going to start.
• 0:12
  That it actually works. So we are quite sure that when you get out there, it's. It's going to, it's going to start. Trevor: The thing is though, Eric, that doesn't matter if you guys do all the checks at the factory. My job as the startup technician or the startup contractor is to be able to do all those checks anyway.
• 0:12
  So I should, you know what I mean? So when I get out to the field, it's great that you did the quality control and you did a check, but me as a startup or controls technician, if you're good at your job, you got to do all those checks anyway. That's the verification to make sure your customer at the end of the day is, has a system that's working and functioning properly.
• 0:12
  And the ones that I know I work with a ton of technicians and contractors around the world, the ones that those control guys and same with Eric, those control guys and startup technicians who follow the process and do it and make sure no complaining, they just, if there's an issue, they call and let them know, okay, this valve is not working or this is an issue that happens sometimes, but when they go through those checklists.
• 0:12
  And they bang it all off. Those systems always start up faster and they run and more reliable for the longterm.
• 0:12
  Erik: Exactly. And it's, it's not, it's not a tool just to push away responsibility. Anything is more a tool for the, for the technicians to follow when they do the startup. And also because it could be.
• 0:13
  Erik: Exactly. And it's, it's not, it's not a tool just to push away responsibility. Anything is more a tool for the, for the technicians to follow when they do the startup. And also because it could be.
• 0:13
  A guy has been starting up several systems, and he knows how to start it up. He's like, okay, I don't need to read this stuff anymore. But it could be that there's been a change in the system. It could be that there's some special equipment on this system. So it's always a good idea just to, you know, we technicians, we hate manuals.
• 0:13
  But sometimes, sometimes it's really good just to read that. three, four pages of instructions on how to do this and make your own checks. Because one thing in that we check it, as you say, it's really good, but nobody knows what happened to the system from at least a factory until it's on site. It could be anything.
• 0:13
  It could be a, it could be a broken sense on the way. It could be a broken cable or something. So you need to be able to figure out what's going on going on here. What's how you, how you test that, that everything is okay. And, and hopefully when we do the pre testing. You have a minimum of a test you have to do on site.
• 0:14
  It could be a, it could be a broken sense on the way. It could be a broken cable or something. So you need to be able to figure out what's going on going on here. What's how you, how you test that, that everything is okay. And, and hopefully when we do the pre testing. You have a minimum of a test you have to do on site.
• 0:14
  Trevor: Yeah. So, so, cause you go to a lot of field starts, you were in New Zealand there a few months ago and you had a big, this wasn't a heat pump one, but this was a big facility that, that you did, but what are the startup checks that you want those technicians to, to, or the contractors that have already checked?
• 0:14
  What are some of the main ones when you get to the site? Cause I talk with a lot of startup guys and sometimes I get there and the The contractor is not ready. And it's not always the technician or contractor's fault. Could be the GC. There was some delays could be the, the building itself not being built, but when you get to a site, what are some of those top things that you want to make sure that it's already done before you get there?
• 0:14
  Erik: Yeah. It's a, the top things are basically everything that is not mounted on the unit from factory. So that, that would be your, your gas coolers, for instance, or, or your, all your, all your evaporators. Out in the system, those, those, all those things we don't have any control of. So in that case, the installer have to check everything.
• 0:15
  Erik: Yeah. It's a, the top things are basically everything that is not mounted on the unit from factory. So that, that would be your, your gas coolers, for instance, or, or your, all your, all your evaporators. Out in the system, those, those, all those things we don't have any control of. So in that case, the installer have to check everything.
• 0:15
  So I have to check that his gas cooler is actually working. The fans are working the, all the sensors on the fans are mounted correctly. So, you know, your air temperature sensor is actually mounted in the airflow of the, of the gas cooler. And, and, and it's not placed just next to the hot exhaust from some other equipment.
• 0:15
  Your return gas temperature is mounted correctly on return lines and insulated and protected from weather and all that stuff. So all these checks you need to do as installer on site. And unfortunately, the gas cooler is probably not really an exciting component. Mostly, mostly just a box of fans, right?
• 0:15
  So it's super boring and it's maybe not super interesting. It's just something, you know, it's always on the roof in the rain. So, so you don't, nobody likes that one, but, but it's, it's super important that all these things also work before we can start the unit, because if we don't, if we have a faulty gas cooler and we try to start the rack.
• 0:16
  So it's super boring and it's maybe not super interesting. It's just something, you know, it's always on the roof in the rain. So, so you don't, nobody likes that one, but, but it's, it's super important that all these things also work before we can start the unit, because if we don't, if we have a faulty gas cooler and we try to start the rack.
• 0:16
  All kinds of weird things can happen. You could go into a gas loop. You can go in, you're going to have, yep.
• 0:16
  Trevor: Let's talk about that. You just mentioned a gas loop. That's a, that's a good one. Can you explain to everyone what that means to you?
• 0:16
  Erik: Yeah, a gas loop is basically when, when the hot gas in the system is just circulated from the compressor right through your gas cooler.
• 0:16
  Right through your, your high pressure valve into your receiver through the bypass valve again, and back to the compressors in an uncontrolled loop. So, and yeah, that's a quick explanation and the technical part of it is, it can happen if you're, for instance, if your return gas sensor. On, on your, on your gas cooler, your drop leg sensor is, has, has fallen off the pipe, it's just hanging, dangling there.
• 0:16
  Then you get into a situation where, where those, the air temperature sensor and the gas temperature sensor have the same value. So now the gas cooler controller things that the temperature is satisfied because I can't cool it anymore. So it stops the fans.
• 0:17
  Then you get into a situation where, where those, the air temperature sensor and the gas temperature sensor have the same value. So now the gas cooler controller things that the temperature is satisfied because I can't cool it anymore. So it stops the fans.
• 0:17
  Trevor: That's right there. And that one there is the, the basic and the number one thing that you need to check.
• 0:17
  But i've talked to so many manufacturers out there where that's hanging off. It's not insulated it's the wrong sensor like they're using a cpc sensor for a danfoss controller or vice versa like a pt1000 This is what caused this year and that's in all their checklists. I've read a lot of manuals co2 manuals and it's that's one of the biggest things it's always highlighted and it's always in the manual Like you got to make sure that's landed properly.
• 0:17
  So thanks for sharing that so now That's, that's more, and we're talking about the gas cooler on transcritical booster rack. You don't have any control of that because that's getting landed by the contractor or the, the GC or whoever. And then we're, the control guys are pulling that wire. So now when we talk about a CO2 heat pump, it's not the gas cooler, but now if it's a water to water, it's some sort of water supply, right?
• 0:18
  So thanks for sharing that so now That's, that's more, and we're talking about the gas cooler on transcritical booster rack. You don't have any control of that because that's getting landed by the contractor or the, the GC or whoever. And then we're, the control guys are pulling that wire. So now when we talk about a CO2 heat pump, it's not the gas cooler, but now if it's a water to water, it's some sort of water supply, right?
• 0:18
  Erik: Some kind of water supply, it could be anything. It could be, yeah some heat transfer from, from a sewage water system, or it could be from a district heat system or whatever system giving us a little bit of of of water with some energy in, and we can take that energy and push it up in pressure and and we can supply it again out in a higher temperature state so we can use it for something useful.
• 0:18
  Like heating your building, heating your city, whatever. This is basically what, what's this heat pump thing is all about. It is the reuse of waste heat, because there's no, there's no point in just generating a lot of new heat with with your gas burners or whatever. If you already have a heat source. Which is your only, and you can, for instance, for this lower picture here, you can see this, you have a big evaporator here or whatever it is heat rejector of some kind, and you just eject all that heat directly to, to, to the air.
• 0:18
  And and it could be, it could be maybe like 40 degrees cooling water coming, coming back from, from whatever production. And that 40 degree water here contains quite a lot of energy, and it is just waste. And instead of putting, just blowing it away and having a furnace heat up your building, then we can take that heat with the heat pump and convert it into a higher state of energy.
• 0:19
  And and it could be, it could be maybe like 40 degrees cooling water coming, coming back from, from whatever production. And that 40 degree water here contains quite a lot of energy, and it is just waste. And instead of putting, just blowing it away and having a furnace heat up your building, then we can take that heat with the heat pump and convert it into a higher state of energy.
• 0:19
  So a higher temperature of water, return it to the building and heat it up. And and we can do that for a very low cost because every time we use. Yeah. One kilowatt for, for, for running the heat pump, we get somewhere between two and a half and three and a half kilowatts of heat out of it. So that's not a bad deal with today's, today's gas prices and electricity prices.
• 0:19
  That's not a bad deal.
• 0:19
  Trevor: The thing is that we've done this in refrigeration for, for years. We just had the condensers out and they're out there now, just throwing all that heat away. We're just throwing it into the atmosphere. We're creating heat energy. Cause we got to. Push that unit up over the condensing point, push it really high, and then we just reject the heat.
• 0:20
  Trevor: The thing is that we've done this in refrigeration for, for years. We just had the condensers out and they're out there now, just throwing all that heat away. We're just throwing it into the atmosphere. We're creating heat energy. Cause we got to. Push that unit up over the condensing point, push it really high, and then we just reject the heat.
• 0:20
  So we pull the heater apart and reject it. Then we came in with heat reclaim where you said earlier, we got heat recovery, heat reclaim. Now we heat up pre preheat water or preheat air in the building, but now even bigger than that on bigger process. Now we're using these heat pumps to actually Take a lot of that, that heat and then heating these buildings.
• 0:20
  Cause I'm seeing more and more of these, this happening with CO2, a full all in one, all in one system.
• 0:20
  Erik: Yeah. So we, yeah, because we're starting to integrate everything in one system. So we can, but this is a, this is just, just your, your, your standard heat pump system here. This one here is it's a water to water heat pump.
• 0:20
  It can only generate heat. That's what it can do. It can only generate heat and it's really good at it. So the next step from this is also to make a complete climate control system, as we call it. So we can not only produce heat for the building, but also produce chilled water for your air conditioning or process cooling or whatever you need from a single heat source.
• 0:21
  It can only generate heat. That's what it can do. It can only generate heat and it's really good at it. So the next step from this is also to make a complete climate control system, as we call it. So we can not only produce heat for the building, but also produce chilled water for your air conditioning or process cooling or whatever you need from a single heat source.
• 0:21
  That's super smart. We have made this, this beast of a thing. It's a 12 meter long, 12 meter long system two and a half meters wide. So you can, it can just fit on the rear end of a, of a semi truck which is super handy. This this small guy here can can produce 700 kilowatts of heat and 400 kilowatts of cooling.
• 0:21
  From just from from air to air to water system. So what what you see here on the back with the fans on are not a gas cooler that is evaporators.
• 0:21
  Yeah. So, so that's your heat source.
• 0:21
  Trevor: Okay. Yeah. That's your heat source, right? And then you need that
• 0:21
  Erik: and you need a heat source of some kind. And in this case here, we, we, we go for a, a air to air to water system. It could be, it could be just a big chilling unit. You have as a heat source and said, it doesn't really matter.
• 0:21
  We just need yeah. Some kind of heat source.
• 0:22
  We just need yeah. Some kind of heat source. Trevor: And so, so now this is you and the factory, you guys work on this, you guys set it up, you design it, you check all the set points. I did some videos, so go check out on the LinkedIn. I've done some with Kenneth Madsen on talking about the rejectors that are inside here and stuff, but you guys make, this is great.
• 0:22
  But the next step is getting it out to the field. And you guys got some of these out to the field. And then we talked about it in the summertime, about the startup that you were on for the one in Latvia, was it? I can't remember. Yeah, it was in
• 0:22
  Erik: Latvia. Yeah.
• 0:22
  Trevor: Okay. And so, so now after it gets in the field, the, the contractor or the technician or that company goes and does the install.
• 0:22
  So the install would be hooking up to what, so they, they get this unit, it drops off onto a pad. And then what's the next steps for those contracts? Oh, you've got a picture.
• 0:22
  Erik: This is, this is actually the unit we talked about. So the contractor, he, he makes this platform here for, for the unit to, to stand on. It can be a bit hard to see it, but we've got some machine shoes here and there you have our skid on the top. So he makes this platform here and this platform is quite important because you need, you need some, some space underneath underneath the unit to, to draw in all the, all the air.
• 0:23
  Erik: This is, this is actually the unit we talked about. So the contractor, he, he makes this platform here for, for the unit to, to stand on. It can be a bit hard to see it, but we've got some machine shoes here and there you have our skid on the top. So he makes this platform here and this platform is quite important because you need, you need some, some space underneath underneath the unit to, to draw in all the, all the air.
• 0:23
  And and also now in Latvia here, you, you get a bit of snow. So in the winter time, all of this would be filled up with snow. So we have to lift it quite a bit to, to have access to, to, to, to fresh air at all times. And all of this is also they're stuck in what you call it a French drain underneath here to, to, to drain away all the all the water when you're, when you're defrosting the system, because as we talked about, these are evaporators and as every evaporator, they need to be defrosted.
• 0:23
  From time to time and there's only one way that water can go that's down And if you just have it on on on a concrete slab or something you have water everywhere So you need some kind of drainage and that is also a contractor issue so the contractor have to make that the drainage and the platform here and and then basically just Come over here.
• 0:24
  From time to time and there's only one way that water can go that's down And if you just have it on on on a concrete slab or something you have water everywhere So you need some kind of drainage and that is also a contractor issue so the contractor have to make that the drainage and the platform here and and then basically just Come over here.
• 0:24
  That is his water system Coming in here. This is only a heat pump. There's no cooling on this guy here. So it's only a heat pump. So it just connects his two water lines and there's a, some cable trace here for, yeah, for powering up the unit and that is basically what he had to do.
• 0:24
  Trevor: So how important is that the the power it's like any system we need the right amount of energy to Energize this so because I know i've seen heat pumps out there not these ones for an example But they're on generators and stuff and I've seen systems like chillers on generators because they're in the middle of nowhere sometimes But that's so important to have the right power because we're dealing with a lot of electronics maybe not on this site But have you ever seen any issues like that with power issues causing the electronics to act up?
• 0:24
  You
• 0:24
  Erik: We have seen that in some areas where they have not so stable energy sources. We have to micro dropouts on, on the power where you just have like milliseconds when you, when you lose your power that can mess up like, you know, any, any system more or less. So that's not really ideal. But we, of course you can fit this system with, with a, with a UPS system.
• 0:25
  Erik: We have seen that in some areas where they have not so stable energy sources. We have to micro dropouts on, on the power where you just have like milliseconds when you, when you lose your power that can mess up like, you know, any, any system more or less. So that's not really ideal. But we, of course you can fit this system with, with a, with a UPS system.
• 0:25
  So you have battery backup on everything. So that's, that's, That's going to be eliminating the system. Of course, we cannot make a UPS big enough for driving the compressors and stuff, but the control system will at least survive if you, if you lose power for a short period.
• 0:25
  Trevor: Yeah. Okay. So, so that's great.
• 0:25
  So now the contractor got it. They, they built the stands, they built the French drain, they pull the electrical, get the right power there, whatever the voltage is, depending on where you're at in the world, it's going to be a different voltage. And then, and they get the, the, the supply in and the supply out.
• 0:25
  Of whatever the process is.
• 0:25
  Erik: Yeah, that's basically it. And then what he has to do then is, is of course, make sure that his supply water is balanced to the calculation for your unit. Because we have, of course, we, we, we have been we have been quoting a system that can deliver so many kilowatts at these temperatures at this flow.
• 0:26
  Erik: Yeah, that's basically it. And then what he has to do then is, is of course, make sure that his supply water is balanced to the calculation for your unit. Because we have, of course, we, we, we have been we have been quoting a system that can deliver so many kilowatts at these temperatures at this flow.
• 0:26
  So if you don't have, we have, if you don't have the right flow, you don't have the right temperatures, that is quite difficult just to adjust everything into, into a working system because everything has been dimensioned. For the quoted values.
• 0:26
  Trevor: So this is now different than if you're working on say refrigeration and supermarket systems versus unless you do secondary systems like secondary pump systems, cause now we're dealing with.
• 0:26
  Cause now this is not anything to do with the manufacturer of the heat pump. Now we're dealing with flow. So there's circulation pumps or process pumps, whatever you want to call them. And if those process pumps are not supplying the right flow, that is going to change up the whole system dynamics. And you've got to get into something like pump curves now and things like that.
• 0:26
  So is that some of the stuff that you're talking about Eric or the contractor?
• 0:26
  Erik: That's yeah. That's something the contractor really have to, to. Check up on and be sure that all his equipment is is also dimension correctly and also set up correctly and we verify it. Usually they're verified because for measuring the overall COP, you have to measure the flow and differential temperatures anyway.
• 0:27
  Erik: That's yeah. That's something the contractor really have to, to. Check up on and be sure that all his equipment is is also dimension correctly and also set up correctly and we verify it. Usually they're verified because for measuring the overall COP, you have to measure the flow and differential temperatures anyway.
• 0:27
  So, usually they have a metering device on it, so they can, they can tell the flow, they can tell the temperature and. Yeah, and everything is this way if you if you If you are exporting your heat to a distributed system or something, there's always some money included also. So, of course, they are interested in, in knowing the correct energy flow in the system.
• 0:27
  So, so, so that part of it is fairly easy to convince them that this has to be in order. But of course we see from time to time that, oh, you come up and then yes, the pump system is not really calibrated correctly or it's maybe dimension correctly. So it's a wrong size of pump for the system. It's either way too big or way too small and create some delays, of course.
• 0:27
  Trevor: Yeah, Erik: especially, I just finished
• 0:28
  Erik: especially, I just finished Trevor: I just finished the course too 'cause I, I was, I'm not a hydraulics guy, but I just finished a chiller CO2 or sorry, chiller course. And then I had to learn how to do pump curves. And you know, I've never done it before, or, and I might have done it years ago on secondary pump system, but it took me about 20 minutes and I learned how to do it.
• 0:28
  Like I could actually now check a pump curve and plot it on a graph. It's not that difficult and there's lots of YouTube videos you can go and look at. So if you get into an heat pump application, now we're dealing with some hydronics that we didn't do before. You got to learn, you got to get the pump that there's going to be a pump curve for that specific pump, depending on the ratings and the horsepower of it.
• 0:28
  And you've got a plot on how many gallons per minute or whatever your units you're using, that it can move and flow that specific fluid or whatever the process is.
• 0:28
  Erik: Exactly. And, and it's, it's, as, as this is usually not a part of, of the refrigeration installation. It's more like, you know, a plumber system then, then, then it's, that is a cooperation between you as a, as a reefer tech and, and the plumbers to make everything work.
• 0:29
  Erik: Exactly. And, and it's, it's, as, as this is usually not a part of, of the refrigeration installation. It's more like, you know, a plumber system then, then, then it's, that is a cooperation between you as a, as a reefer tech and, and the plumbers to make everything work.
• 0:29
  And so there's two different contractors. We have to, to talk to each other now. And that can also cause some issues sometimes because if there's something wrong in the system, it's definitely the other guy's problem. And that's
• 0:29
  Trevor: why you should know how to do it right. You should just know how to do it anyway.
• 0:29
  So then you Erik: need, yeah, because it's a really good idea for you as a technician, a refrigeration technician, if you have just some insight in, in how this fluid dynamics works, but then you can, then you can more or less eyeball if you're within range, you say, okay, yeah, the system here is okay, but there's something wrong with the temperature, there's something wrong with the flow here, because I can see my system is, is acting up.
• 0:29
  Okay. But there's something wrong over on this side here. So, so it's an, it's another layer of, of knowledge you have to, to, to, to read up on as you said, it's, it's, it's a short course here after an hour. So you, you, you're pretty good going. Yeah.
• 0:30
  Okay. But there's something wrong over on this side here. So, so it's an, it's another layer of, of knowledge you have to, to, to, to read up on as you said, it's, it's, it's a short course here after an hour. So you, you, you're pretty good going. Yeah.
• 0:30
  Trevor: So you, you were at this startup. Is that correct? Did this one, this site here, were you at this?
• 0:30
  Erik: Yeah, I was at this startup here. Yeah.
• 0:30
  Trevor: So, so this was when you got there, the, it was already mounted like this. It had power to it. It had all the hookups.
• 0:30
  Erik: It had a power and hookups, everything. The only thing it was missing was the CO2 charge. Okay. So yeah, so when we come to site of course we do all our checks ourselves as you would do.
• 0:30
  We check that the software is working or the sensors are still working. There's nothing, no loose part from transportation and, you know, just everything is working as you would do on any other, right. And we, we do that. And then we started, okay. We are. We are ready to, to charge the CO2, we have checked oil levels, okay, we have charged the oil.
• 0:30
  When you, when you, when you do the vacuum on the system anyways, you, you, you charge with oil because that's just super easy. Yeah. To pull, pull the oil with the vacuum. And then you're ready to charge. Stop there,
• 0:30
  Trevor: Eric. I like, I like that. This is because I've learned this from advanced or from watching the videos.
• 0:31
  Trevor: Eric. I like, I like that. This is because I've learned this from advanced or from watching the videos.
• 0:31
  You guys like to use a vacuum to pull the oil in. I was always used to pumping it in. I was at a site as field startup a few, a few months ago and they were pumped. They were pumping it in. But do you want to explain why you like to use a vacuum to pull it into the system? The oil in.
• 0:31
  Erik: Oh, it's, it's super easy work because you have everything set up anyways.
• 0:31
  You have your vacuum pumps on the system anyways, you have, you have a, you have, you have pulled it down to a full vacuum. So now it's just a matter of connecting your oil hose to, to your oil bucket and open the valve and then let's time happen and then it's just going to suck everything in. You have, don't have to lift the finger or anything, just have to monitor the levers.
• 0:31
  And
• 0:31
  Trevor: And that's yeah, of course, now that saves time and plus you're still pulling the vacuum because if you break the vacuum or you add 150 PSI or 10 bar of CO2 and then add it, well, then you got to still pull a vacuum again, you got to go back as you and pull a vacuum on that receiver that oil reservoir.
• 0:32
  Trevor: And that's yeah, of course, now that saves time and plus you're still pulling the vacuum because if you break the vacuum or you add 150 PSI or 10 bar of CO2 and then add it, well, then you got to still pull a vacuum again, you got to go back as you and pull a vacuum on that receiver that oil reservoir.
• 0:32
  Actually can save time and it's not, it's not that difficult to do. So
• 0:32
  Erik: it's not that difficult. And I like really like to just, just for making some extra security for myself. Then I, the is isolate the, the, the oil vessel. So I close all the valves in and out and connect. So I have the vacuum pump directly on, on the, on the, on the vessel.
• 0:32
  So if, if I break the vacuum. Because maybe the bucket runs, runs dry and you know, you suck in air. It's only a really small volume. You have to re evacuate. Yeah, that saves me a lot of time. And And, and if you have two guys on, on side or something, yeah, one guy can do that. And another guy can do the final checkup.
• 0:32
  So you don't waste any time. That's just a matter of being more efficient. So when you don't. Yeah.
• 0:32
  Trevor: Yeah. So you get the oil in and cause you know, you're at the startup, you're pulling a vacuum, you get the oil. What's the next step that you're working with a contractor or technician?
• 0:32
  Erik: Yeah. Then, then we then we, then we break the vacuum with, with CO2.
• 0:32
  So we open, we make sure that all the systems are open and equalized in vacuum. And then we then we charge it with CO2 in gas form and vapor form only. Because if you just charge with liquid directly into the system at vacuum, You get dry eyes immediately and yeah, it's just a pain to get rid of again.
• 0:33
  So we open, we make sure that all the systems are open and equalized in vacuum. And then we then we charge it with CO2 in gas form and vapor form only. Because if you just charge with liquid directly into the system at vacuum, You get dry eyes immediately and yeah, it's just a pain to get rid of again.
• 0:33
  So we give it usually we, we charge it to about something between seven and 10 bars of vapor pressure. There'll be a hundred, a hundred PSI ish or something of vapor pressure. When that is done, we start filling in a liquid just on it. On a normal supermarket system we charge directly into the receiver because then we have the whole refrigeration system to help us keep the pressure low if it's getting too high.
• 0:33
  That's super easy. On this system here we found that it's It's a good idea to start with the receiver, fill up the receiver, fill up, you know, the, the, the liquid lines the volumes are not that big because it's still, it's all the machine room is here. All the refrigeration system is basically only in here and in the, in the feed lines out here.
• 0:34
  That's super easy. On this system here we found that it's It's a good idea to start with the receiver, fill up the receiver, fill up, you know, the, the, the liquid lines the volumes are not that big because it's still, it's all the machine room is here. All the refrigeration system is basically only in here and in the, in the feed lines out here.
• 0:34
  So it's a very small pipe volume you have in this system here. So it's quite easy to fill that up. But then we found that is then we found where, as soon as you've got a liquid enough to, to, to run the unit. It's. That is easier to, to charge from, from your liquid line. So you, you close your separation valve between your, your liquid receiver and your liquid line.
• 0:34
  And then connect somewhere after that with, with your, with your, with your CO2 hose and charge with liquid that way. And just let, let, let the compressors do the work for you. That, that worked quite, quite well in these the systems here.
• 0:34
  Trevor: So at that time, what you, you are, I'm assuming watching the sight glass and the pressure in the receiver and the flash tank as you're charging it, because in the field, sometimes you don't always know how much.
• 0:34
  Gas, you would know how much, how much CO2 the system's going to take, but a lot of technician may not know if it's doing it. So you're watching the pressure and the sight glasses on the flash tank receiver or how are you doing? Yeah,
• 0:35
  Gas, you would know how much, how much CO2 the system's going to take, but a lot of technician may not know if it's doing it. So you're watching the pressure and the sight glasses on the flash tank receiver or how are you doing? Yeah,
• 0:35
  Erik: we always monitor, yeah, the pressures and the levels. So, so as soon as we got.
• 0:35
  A minimum level on the system. We basically ready to begin starting a startup system, but if you're more liquid, you can get in the, the flash gas tank directly the better because you have a larger connection, it will go faster. So, but at some point you get up to a pressure where it's okay. Now it.
• 0:35
  Your bottles can't really keep up anymore because now you are at the same pressure as ambient temperature pressure will take you. Because when you got like, let's say here it was like 20 degrees outside, then you have about 55 60 bars in your bottles. And as soon as you get, as soon as you get, uh, the same pressure in your, in your vessels, you don't have any dry pressure in your bottles anymore,
• 0:35
  Trevor: and
• 0:35
  Erik: then you go, then you go nowhere.
• 0:35
  And, and and an issue here we see a lot of times is, well, okay, that the guys that they got in CO2 delivered the day before or something. It's got a truckload of bottles are coming and they unload it and it's, it's outside all night and you maybe the temperature dropping at night, you maybe only have five degrees at night or something, or maybe freezing sometimes in winter time, then your CO2 bottles are, Frozen solid.
• 0:36
  And, and and an issue here we see a lot of times is, well, okay, that the guys that they got in CO2 delivered the day before or something. It's got a truckload of bottles are coming and they unload it and it's, it's outside all night and you maybe the temperature dropping at night, you maybe only have five degrees at night or something, or maybe freezing sometimes in winter time, then your CO2 bottles are, Frozen solid.
• 0:36
  Trevor: There's no, there's no movement of that. No,
• 0:36
  Erik: there, you got no pressure. Yeah. It's absolutely next to impossible to get anything out of them. And then, then you have to go all these tricks. So when you use the suction line or yeah, you get your apprentice to hock the bottles until they get hot.
• 0:36
  Trevor: So, okay. You get, you're out in the field and you get, you get the right amount of charge in there.
• 0:36
  So what's the process of starting this up now? So you're getting CO2 in there. You're watching it. What's the next step?
• 0:36
  Erik: Yeah. The next step that we, we, we, we, in this case with the heat pumps, we, we simply just start at a low capacity. We can control the capacity directly. So how, how much compressor capacity are you cutting in?
• 0:37
  Erik: Yeah. The next step that we, we, we, we, in this case with the heat pumps, we, we simply just start at a low capacity. We can control the capacity directly. So how, how much compressor capacity are you cutting in?
• 0:37
  So we started at a low levels just to make sure everything's working and slowly get the system working. Okay. And and, and checking all your water temperatures and your evaporator temperatures and everything that all the figures checks out. And, and you don't wanna do this too fast because a, a water circuit is a, is, is, is a really slow system.
• 0:37
  And and the whole balance the control system here, just to balance itself is set to be really, really slow in order to, to catch those small fluctuations in temperature you will get. So just because you're raising your return temperature by, by your water to your, your incoming water line here, if you raise that by, by a Kelvin or something, it is, it's not gonna.
• 0:37
  It's not gonna start the whole system at once, just cutting all the compressors and full, full load on the system, because that was, that would create a lot of instability. So we have to go really, really slowly here. It's the base we do in, in, in hand mode, just set the system in hand mode and just slowly work it up and check if everything's okay.
• 0:38
  It's not gonna start the whole system at once, just cutting all the compressors and full, full load on the system, because that was, that would create a lot of instability. So we have to go really, really slowly here. It's the base we do in, in, in hand mode, just set the system in hand mode and just slowly work it up and check if everything's okay.
• 0:38
  And as, as more capacity is, is, is added, , you also need to charge more CO2 because your evaporators will, will be more, more and more flooded. Yeah. So fill up your evaporators and it's, it's, it's a waiting game, so you have to fill it up a bit. Wait to see what happens, fill it up again, check some more, fill it up again, and you do this over a course of an, an hour or something, and then then this, this system here was, yeah, we started up from, we got power on it until we had a, a running system, we still have some fine tuning, of course, it was about two, two and a half hours.
• 0:38
  Trevor: And, but that was after everything was checked and everything, you know, verify the pressure tensor because startups can go really fast. Cause I've heard people, Oh, it's a two hour, just like you, a two hour startup. But if you didn't do all the pre work, the evacuation, the oil, you know, the charging that, that take, that takes time, you know,
• 0:38
  Erik: just takes a long, long time.
• 0:39
  Erik: just takes a long, long time. Yeah. So yeah, just for the evacuation, we recommend you evacuate the system for at least 24 hours.
• 0:39
  Trevor: That should be a minimum. It's really, that should
• 0:39
  Erik: be absolute minimum. And you should also break, break the vacuum with, with nitrogen a couple of times during that process. So at least 24 hours, two days are better.
• 0:39
  Yeah,
• 0:39
  Trevor: exactly. Until we get that, that down to a hundred microns below, you know, really deep vacuum. It's really,
• 0:39
  Erik: really deep, deep, deep vacuum here. And that's because we don't like moisture in our system. And, and it's only when you do the, the deep vacuum for a long time. And in this case, it could be quite difficult because the unit is outside and it's, you know, we can't put it in a heated room.
• 0:39
  So, so water boils at I think it's 20, 20 millibars or something at 20 degrees. So it's, it's quite a good vacuum you have to go, but with a quite a high temperature, it's a room temperature before you start boiling off water. And if you. And if you don't, if you can't get that temperature, you have to do the vacuum for quite some time and you have to rely on your, on your motor heaters, crankcase heaters and your compressors to generate some heat for the system so we can boil off any moisture.
• 0:40
  So, so water boils at I think it's 20, 20 millibars or something at 20 degrees. So it's, it's quite a good vacuum you have to go, but with a quite a high temperature, it's a room temperature before you start boiling off water. And if you. And if you don't, if you can't get that temperature, you have to do the vacuum for quite some time and you have to rely on your, on your motor heaters, crankcase heaters and your compressors to generate some heat for the system so we can boil off any moisture.
• 0:40
  Trevor: And you may have to tarp it off and hire a heater. Like I've seen this happen, you know, in the middle of the winter, like they pull a vacuum. You get big tarps and you put it over a cover and you get the fire going, like heat, big heaters blowing in on the unit to heat it up. If it's so cold to pull the evacuation, you have to do that sometime.
• 0:40
  You might not have done it before, but I've seen it where contractors had to do it. So you it's thinking differently if you need to get it up and running faster, because it could take you weeks. If you got water in the system, it could take you if it's cold out, it could take you weeks to get the water out.
• 0:40
  Erik: Basically take you weeks. Yeah. Because you have quite a lot of volume in there. And if you have been unfortunate enough that that you get water in a pipe from maybe from, from production where you're cool, the pipe down and it's not dried proper afterwards and. Or some external installation to have been open pipes and then moisture is getting in from, from, from overnight or something.
• 0:41
  Erik: Basically take you weeks. Yeah. Because you have quite a lot of volume in there. And if you have been unfortunate enough that that you get water in a pipe from maybe from, from production where you're cool, the pipe down and it's not dried proper afterwards and. Or some external installation to have been open pipes and then moisture is getting in from, from, from overnight or something.
• 0:41
  Yeah. Then you have an issue with water in the system. It is it's a pain to get rid of.
• 0:41
  Trevor: So slow startup, that's any system anyway, any CO2 refrigeration system, or even a supermarket rack, we just got faster at doing it. You know, we're just used to doing working with the HFCs for years, you know, you got faster and faster now This is what co2 every system is so slow startup, right?
• 0:41
  You will turn some systems on make sure they're working good go to some more systems and it's the same with this We don't want to just bang everything off. It'll run into more issues. So now that we get The, the system up and running. One thing that I learned about this at Chalventa that you guys are using ejectors in this versus what you were used to using in a supermarket transcritical booster system, where we've got a high pressure valve and a bypass valve, there is.
• 0:41
  Ejectors. Don't get me wrong. You can use ejectors. And I've done lots of podcasts with Dan Foster. Go check them out on the YouTube channel. But in here, you're using some ejectors and I think you might've been Corel's single ejectors in one of these. And maybe we can explain how it's working in this system because we know like I said go check out the danfoss videos. I did with patrick clarity great guy super smart. They have multi ejectors We're now corral, ejectors. I think they're licensed from carrier.
• 0:42
  Ejectors. Don't get me wrong. You can use ejectors. And I've done lots of podcasts with Dan Foster. Go check them out on the YouTube channel. But in here, you're using some ejectors and I think you might've been Corel's single ejectors in one of these. And maybe we can explain how it's working in this system because we know like I said go check out the danfoss videos. I did with patrick clarity great guy super smart. They have multi ejectors We're now corral, ejectors. I think they're licensed from carrier.
• 0:42
  So but these ejectors are single ejectors and there's multiple manufacturers who make single ejectors out here This is just one brand
• 0:42
  Erik: Yeah, this is a, this is a quite a beast. It's quite a beast. It's quite heavy. I tell you, it's made of brass and it's, it's, it's massive.
• 0:42
  Trevor: Yeah. Erik: But, but basically this is just a paint gun.
• 0:42
  That's right. The way Trevor: you put that, it's a spray gun. It's just a
• 0:42
  Erik: spray gun. It's, it's a, it's a quite simple system. I'll just keep it on here for now. So it's a quite a simple system. It, it, it utilizes that you have a, your high pressure gas flow. Cool. You, you, you, you accelerate that over a small piece of pipe exactly as you do with what you have your high pressure on your, on your, on your spray gun and you have a dipstick dip pipe and going into your paint bucket.
• 0:43
  Erik: spray gun. It's, it's a, it's a quite simple system. I'll just keep it on here for now. So it's a quite a simple system. It, it, it utilizes that you have a, your high pressure gas flow. Cool. You, you, you, you accelerate that over a small piece of pipe exactly as you do with what you have your high pressure on your, on your, on your spray gun and you have a dipstick dip pipe and going into your paint bucket.
• 0:43
  And what really happens is what you, you, you take the high pressure gas, and then you, you push it into a chamber, which is narrowing down. So you have like a. A funnel. And when you do this yeah, according to physics, you, you, you have to conserve your momentum. And you can only do this when you, when you're narrowing down your orifice and you have to, you have to have the same amount of mass going through.
• 0:43
  You have to accelerate again. So you speed up the gas. So it's going about it's gonna, I think it's gonna supersonic actually. So, and, and when you go this far this fast over a small piece of pipe, you, you create a suction effect, you create a small vacuum of it. And this vacuum we are using this, the dip, the dip tube, we, you usually put into your paint bucket.
• 0:43
  We put that into our suction line from the evaporators. So now we are, we are using the, the high pressure gas to lift. The, the, the, the return gas the pressure up to receive a pressure level. So all this, all this gas coming from this guy here is, is pushed into, into the, to, to your liquid receiver.
• 0:44
  We put that into our suction line from the evaporators. So now we are, we are using the, the high pressure gas to lift. The, the, the, the return gas the pressure up to receive a pressure level. So all this, all this gas coming from this guy here is, is pushed into, into the, to, to your liquid receiver.
• 0:44
  And it's done without adding any kind of you know, motor work or anything. You don't have a compressors, anything. You have a mechanical work on the high pressure gas, but that, that, that high pressure gas, you have to slow down anyways, because you have to lower the pressure. So you have to take out the energies anyways with your high pressure valve.
• 0:44
  So this one here just replaces your high pressure valve. And we use it as a pump. So we pump. It basically replaces a compressor. On your empty stage. So we can, we can simply take energy, use that energy from the high pressure gas to, to, to, to lift the suction pressure up to a receiver pressure level.
• 0:44
  Trevor: And that saves a huge amount of energy now.
• 0:44
  So we don't have such big compression ratio on those medium temp compressors. Now, if we can do that at a higher, higher pressure.
• 0:45
  So we don't have such big compression ratio on those medium temp compressors. Now, if we can do that at a higher, higher pressure.
• 0:45
  Erik: Exactly. And on this system here, we, furthermore, we, we, we actually don't have any empty compressors on it. That's that sounds crazy. We, we, we only have technically, we only have parallel compression on it because all the compressors are connected directly to the receiver tank.
• 0:45
  Trevor: Ah, so now you're not pulling down to four say 400 PSI, 28 bar or whatever. We're not going down that low or what we're going down, going down to like 40 bar or 42 bar or whatever that range is. I don't know what it is, but
• 0:45
  Erik: yeah. And in that range, yeah, because. In this case here, we have a really high vibration temperature from the evaporators.
• 0:45
  We are up at like plus 10, plus 15 in a vibration temperature. And so, so, That we don't have any need for this empty stage anymore because we're not operating in that range anymore. We operating at, at, at a very higher range. So we have, if you look at the PRI diagram, but you have your empty and the LT compressors, you will see on a PNI for this guy here, you will only have your, your, your IT, your parallel compressors.
• 0:46
  We are up at like plus 10, plus 15 in a vibration temperature. And so, so, That we don't have any need for this empty stage anymore because we're not operating in that range anymore. We operating at, at, at a very higher range. So we have, if you look at the PRI diagram, but you have your empty and the LT compressors, you will see on a PNI for this guy here, you will only have your, your, your IT, your parallel compressors.
• 0:46
  So that's a little bit of special special way to do this, but works really good.
• 0:46
  Trevor: Yeah, it does. And I know, cause even two years ago when I was at Chilventa talking with you guys and even all the other manufacturers in Europe that are using ejectors, a lot of people think here it's difficult to use in North America, but it all depends on the application.
• 0:46
  Here in Canada in a supermarket transcritical booster system, you're not, you don't need ejectors like if you're just doing refrigeration. But when you're using a heat pump now here in Canada and district heat, ejectors might be the thing that you need on there, you know, in this cold.
• 0:46
  Erik: Definitely tool in a box here.
• 0:46
  And if it converted into European waste, then, then up here in the North and Denmark, when I am, the ejectors, Are not that not that important for the system to, to function properly because we have a reasonable cold climate, but as further south you get to southern France to Spain, Portugal to, to Greece, when you go into these kind of areas, then, then your, your high pressure gas will be so, so, so, so high pressure that that we, we are generating quite a bit of a flash gas for your system.
• 0:47
  And if it converted into European waste, then, then up here in the North and Denmark, when I am, the ejectors, Are not that not that important for the system to, to function properly because we have a reasonable cold climate, but as further south you get to southern France to Spain, Portugal to, to Greece, when you go into these kind of areas, then, then your, your high pressure gas will be so, so, so, so high pressure that that we, we are generating quite a bit of a flash gas for your system.
• 0:47
  And in that case, we can use, instead of just generating flash gas for flash gas sake, we can, we can use the ejectors here together with this high pressure, high volume, high pressure gas to, to lift, to lift the liquid from, from the empty stage to, to, to receive a pressure again. And again, bypassing the compressor.
• 0:47
  So we offloading the compressors. So we don't have to strain our compressors as much. We can maybe use less compressors on the system.
• 0:47
  Trevor: Yeah, and that's what it's all about. So we're, so we're trying to reduce the amount of work on these medium temp pressure compressors, right? We get less flash guys going in because now before it gets to the compressors, we're taking it away.
• 0:48
  Trevor: Yeah, and that's what it's all about. So we're, so we're trying to reduce the amount of work on these medium temp pressure compressors, right? We get less flash guys going in because now before it gets to the compressors, we're taking it away.
• 0:48
  We're bringing it back.
• 0:48
  Erik: Exactly, yeah, so we're skipping a step, so we're just skipping that we need to bleed off with the bypass valve, a lot of flash gas, into our MT compressors, and just send them directly to the parallel compressors, because that's way shorter lift for the parallel compressors, yeah.
• 0:48
  Trevor: Man, I could sit here and talk to you all day about this. So I've got one last question for you. So for these high pressure valves, like everyone's like, Oh, it's the, Oh, sorry. These E Ejector valves, these single ejectors is like, Oh, I don't know how it works. It is just an electronic valve. There's a motor on it.
• 0:48
  It's going to open and close the orifice to make it bigger. Just like Eric said. To shoot. Now, what is, what is that going to be controlled? So in your heap of what is controlling that to open and close to say, okay, we need to do more lift. We need less lift. So if someone's going to go in and, you know, look at your controls, if it's a Dan Foss or Corral or whoever it is, doesn't matter, what is, what is controlling that?
• 0:49
  It's going to open and close the orifice to make it bigger. Just like Eric said. To shoot. Now, what is, what is that going to be controlled? So in your heap of what is controlling that to open and close to say, okay, we need to do more lift. We need less lift. So if someone's going to go in and, you know, look at your controls, if it's a Dan Foss or Corral or whoever it is, doesn't matter, what is, what is controlling that?
• 0:49
  Ejector for your system to make it most optimal to make sure that it's always running at the best. COP.
• 0:49
  Erik: Yeah. That, that would be your for, for your, for your refrigeration systems. That would be a, a, a parallel system to your high pressure valve. So as soon as the system sees that we have flash gas enough.
• 0:49
  For, for, for running the IT compressors. Then, then we start up the IT compressors and we, when we shot the, the, the high pressure valve, and then we can start up, start using the, the ejectors here at full effect because now we, now we can remove all that flak gas we are getting from, from, from, from rear ejectors.
• 0:49
  But we also lift all this liquid from, from the, from the low stages. And thereby we can maybe stop one or two of the empty compressors. So, so that's always a balance between your mass flows in the system. So it's a mass flows that dictate what kind of equipment we can start and stop.
• 0:50
  But we also lift all this liquid from, from the, from the low stages. And thereby we can maybe stop one or two of the empty compressors. So, so that's always a balance between your mass flows in the system. So it's a mass flows that dictate what kind of equipment we can start and stop.
• 0:50
  Trevor: And is it the same?
• 0:50
  So and that was a CO2 system. Is that the same in here? It's the same with this one, how that one's working in the heat pump.
• 0:50
  Erik: These guys here basically work as the UMT compressors and DISC system here. So they, they would, they would try to control the, the, the, the pressure in the system and and the compressors would just yeah, evacuate the, the flash tank.
• 0:50
  So, so basically they, in this kind of system here, they replace the compressor functions. So, and these work on a totally different concept. There is our own software that's, that's that's working these guys. And so I'm not a hundred percent into how that software really works at the moment, but but we, we just try to.
• 0:50
  Trying to optimize all the processes at once at once, but on this system here with our own software, because the standard, if you just go out and bought yourself to your standard Danforce controller, corral controller it can do a lot of things is really good. And it can also be used for heat pumps.
• 0:51
  Trying to optimize all the processes at once at once, but on this system here with our own software, because the standard, if you just go out and bought yourself to your standard Danforce controller, corral controller it can do a lot of things is really good. And it can also be used for heat pumps.
• 0:51
  But when we use it for this kind of system here, it is and it's lacking some functions, some special functions. So we have to have to redesign everything and, and then come up with our own software for it. And so I would
• 0:51
  Trevor: think it would be taking the inlet and outlet water temperatures. How that is affected, right?
• 0:51
  Because now that compressor, like we're going to have to change capacity. So depending on what my inlet water temperature is, will depend on how I need to run and depending on my outlet water temperature, how much heat are we pulling out or how much heat that we need?
• 0:51
  Erik: Yeah, exactly. So it, so it, it is, is controlled by the water temperature because the customer is buying a water temperature at a, at a given flow.
• 0:51
  So, so many kilowatts at this temperature. So, so as soon as we, we are, we're not, we're not following that. Of course, we have to have to ramp up the system here. And, and, and again, we've gets too hot. Yeah, we have to slow down a bit. So we have to get a balance of everything. So that's a combination between.
• 0:52
  So, so many kilowatts at this temperature. So, so as soon as we, we are, we're not, we're not following that. Of course, we have to have to ramp up the system here. And, and, and again, we've gets too hot. Yeah, we have to slow down a bit. So we have to get a balance of everything. So that's a combination between.
• 0:52
  The evaporators, how hard we are running the evaporators and how hard we are running the ejectors and the compressors. So it's, it's it's a, it's a little bit complex system. And yeah, maybe a video for yourself.
• 0:52
  Trevor: Yeah, yeah, no, definitely, man. This has been awesome, Eric. Like I've learned a lot already.
• 0:52
  And I, I, like I said, we've talked for hours. We sat for lunch back in August for a couple of hours, just talking about it. And it just, It's so fascinating to me, refrigeration, how it's evolving, because now you are working on say CO2 supermarket racks or commercial rack, but now you're getting into an industrial, you're going to have a lot more things to work on with CO2.
• 0:52
  So it's. Growing your knowledge, increasing, increasing, how can people find out more about you, Eric, or Advancer if they want to learn more?
• 0:52
  Erik: Yeah, if you want to learn about what we do, we have our, of course, we have our website, advancer. com, where you can see a lot of case stories about the things we do. We also attend as you do here webinars about different subjects.
• 0:53
  Erik: Yeah, if you want to learn about what we do, we have our, of course, we have our website, advancer. com, where you can see a lot of case stories about the things we do. We also attend as you do here webinars about different subjects.
• 0:53
  It could be about dimensioning heat pumps, and it could be about people claim systems. It could be about industrial applications or whatever. And you can find all that in our homepage on the training and you can sign up for these classes here. And also like you do you have. Special classes for, we have a whole series of, of yeah, online technical trainings you could sign up for.
• 0:53
  So you start from we have an, I think it's about an hour of videos where you, you dive into a specific topic on each video. And I think there's about 12 subjects or something. I think it is. And they always update it. So they're always coming up with new, new ones. So, and of course everything's for free.
• 0:53
  Trevor: Yeah, so definitely check it out. This is important. Continue to learn continue to grow your knowledge because it's you don't you're just sitting Here once or listening once on the podcast or watching this on the youtube video It's great but you got to see it do it and you know get out there actually go out into the field and put your gauges on Some of the stuff and your your meters on it and then read and learn and continue to grow your knowledge invest In yourself.
• 0:54
  Trevor: Yeah, so definitely check it out. This is important. Continue to learn continue to grow your knowledge because it's you don't you're just sitting Here once or listening once on the podcast or watching this on the youtube video It's great but you got to see it do it and you know get out there actually go out into the field and put your gauges on Some of the stuff and your your meters on it and then read and learn and continue to grow your knowledge invest In yourself.
• 0:54
  That's how you're going to get better. That's how you're going to grow air. Thank you so much for hanging out at the CO2 experts. And I look forward to chatting with you again.
• 0:54
  Erik: See everybody. Absolutely. A pleasure. See ya.
• 0:55
  Erik: See everybody. Absolutely. A pleasure. See ya.