Latest / Sidewalk Talks / Hurley Coleman Jr. & Hurley Coleman III: Providence, Progression, and Leadership in Saginaw

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Hurley Coleman Jr. & Hurley Coleman III: Providence, Progression, and Leadership in Saginaw · Sidewalk Talks

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hurley Coleman and Hurley Coleman, welcome.
• 0:04
  Speaker 2: Thanks. We're happy to
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: be here. Yeah. I was driving in the car and I was telling you this before we started recording. I was like, man, I really gotta get Hurley Coleman the third, like, on the podcast. And then I was thinking, like but I also like, I interview him all the time, so there's gotta be another reason.
• 0:21
  And I was like, oh, I wonder if I could get his dad on the podcast. So this is my first father son podcast in the history of this thing. You serious? First one ever.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: That's right. Yeah.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: Let's do it. Hurley Coleman junior, Hurley Coleman the third. Welcome to the show. I think before we start jumping into the conversation, maybe let's give it like a little bit of a one zero one of of who you are and what it is you do. Just give folks just a little bit of background.
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: Well, my I'm I'm the third oldest child of of our family. My father, Hurley J. Coleman senior, and my mother Doctor. Martha Willette Chapman Coleman. I have two older siblings, Hurley Coleman Dickinson, she was a principal and a teacher, teacher of the year, one of the outstanding educators in the Saginaw Public School System for years, and then my brother Charles, who is now the superintendent of the schools for the city of Saginaw Public School.
• 1:18
  And so I'm Hurley Junior, and I just kind of grew up kind of enjoying being the guy that makes jokes and be a center of attention and just trying to make people happy. I went to high school here in Saginaw, graduated from high school, went to Eastern Michigan. Got to Eastern Michigan and I was pledging my fraternity, Kappa Alpha Psi, and I went on a meeting with one of the older advisors, and he said, So what are you gonna do with your life? I said, I don't know, I'm playing in a band, I'm just hanging around. He said, Well what do wanna do?
• 1:52
  I said, I don't know, what's your major? I said, I'm just happy to be in college, I didn't think I'd ever get here. He said, Well what do you like to do? I said, I really like to make people's life feel better, like to make people happy. And he said, So have you ever thought about recreation?
• 2:08
  I said, I think about it all the time. He said, No. Have you ever thought about it as a field of study and a career? I said, I didn't know there was such a thing. And I found out that there was a degree in Parks and Recreation Administration.
• 2:21
  So I got my degree from Eastern Michigan in community parks and community recreation administration, not realizing that that would be my career.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: And so after I graduated from college, first job was with Washtenaw County Parks, I worked over the summer that I was playing in a band, I thought this was gonna be fine, I could do this for a recreation job, playing in the clubs, not realizing that that was the way I was gonna be. You
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: just thought that you were gonna play all day, then play all night, and then like, welcome to the rest of my life.
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: Play, play, play, and that was gonna be my life. Then my father passed away in 2001. No no no no no no. In 1978, I changed, my life changed, and I got into church. I came back home, my father had started our church in 1957.
• 3:14
  I came back home to Saginaw, within a month, I came in Thanksgiving, 'seventy eight. By January '9 I was working for Saginaw County Parks. It's been four years at Saginaw County Parks, and I was recruited to come over and be recreation superintendent for the city of Saginaw for another five years, and then I was recruited to come to Wayne County and be Parks and Recreation Director for Wayne County for fourteen years. And that was my life, so I spent my life and career being Parks and Recreation. And I was already in ministry while I was there.
• 3:50
  So 2001 my father passed away and I came back to Saginaw as a pastor of the church. So for the last twenty five years I've been here in Saginaw pastoring the church. Along the way we had a wonderful young lady from Saginaw, Sandra Morris. We got married in 1981, and we have three amazing children. They are doing things that just blow my mind every time I think about it.
• 4:16
  My wife and I have been married, now it'll be forty five years this year.
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: Forty five years?
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: Man, that's crazy. Wow. That's amazing.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: Yep, and she be has considered an angel because she's still married to me, was gonna say. But it's a really fulfilling life, I know that my life is more than just ministry in the church, but it's ministry in the community, and that's how I, pretty much that's it.
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: I love it.
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: Got a couple of degrees, and I'm doing stuff.
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: I love it. We're gonna dive more into your story in a second. Hurley Coleman the third, who are you and what is it you do?
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: So, like, again, I'm I'm Hurley. I'm a middle child three.
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: And you sound so good on this microphone Sweet.
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: Sweet. You got the shots, man.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: I'm serving as executive director, CEO of Saginaw County Community Action. I can't believe it. It's going on five years in March. I started in 2021 and it's 2026 now. So I've been serving there and we're just leading our organization and trying to help people help themselves.
• 5:27
  Like it's a wonderful thing to be able to wake up and know that you're helping people. And, you know, it's a wonderful thing to know that when you do help these people, that you actually see change. So I didn't know like all the things that I would be doing until I started, but in that work is housing, it's food and security, there's senior outreach, there's emergency services, there's community advocacy, which what we're doing right now, just trying to get people ready to vote. Today is the day we vote. So just all of the work that we're doing, all the work that Bishop's doing, working with the faith based communities, that's awesome, to be a partner to the churches.
• 6:05
  And so when churches don't have grant funds or don't have opportunities, we're able to work with multiple churches and ministries and faith based communities, and that kind of work is awesome. I'm just happy to be able to just do this work and just help change some lives. Yeah. You came to CAC though, what were you doing?
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: Man. You were doing some other stuff.
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: I was. I was, working in, in in sales. I started selling cars when I moved back, here from from Cincinnati. Yeah. I've worked with my father.
• 6:39
  Like, I got my first really start in business and nonprofit work, working with dad at the church. And so when we moved to the church we are now on Bay Road, they needed a facility manager. And so I was out of college, I had just graduated, we just got to church and dad was like, well, wanna come work for me? I was like, well, yeah, okay. And from that came creating facility policies and procedures and getting the membership to help with funerals and catering and getting a church ready for a commercial kitchen and all the things that we didn't know and even capital improvement projects of just trying to sustain a church and build it up and doing whatever I could do to help dad.
• 7:21
  And then from that came the faith based kind of nonprofit work that came from the work that he was doing. So I got my first kind of dibble and dabble in nonprofit work working with my dad. And then from there, I left and I took some other small odd jobs here in the city. And then I left and went to Cincinnati. There I was working in sales.
• 7:42
  So I was doing, I was a business development director for one of the largest picture frame companies in America. It's called Frame USA. So I sold picture frames. We did millions of dollars in frames and a lot of frames that you see in stores like Walmart or even the even even the frames you see in Little Caesars.
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: If you go to Little Caesars
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: or if you go into Domino's Pizza and you look at the frames, I could look at them and say, Oh, I sold those.
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: That's item number 001AB. Know exactly.
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: I know what frame it is, metal frames, and we got wooden frames in there, but every store. So we did a lot of work there. And then I came back home and started working with Dick Garber, with Garber in the organization. And from there I started selling cars and I got really good at it. And I enjoy working with the people.
• 8:26
  But one of the things that found out was that I was really upset that people's credit scores were so low. So I asked Dick if I can do classes to get people's credit scores up. And from that came more community work. Someone saw it and say, hey, Hurley, don't you apply for this job? I'm like, okay.
• 8:42
  And here it is. I'm I'm skilled.
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: Interesting. It's that's really interesting to me. And and I think this is where where my next question is is kinda heading to both of you is because, like, here you are, bishop, but before you were Parks and Rec, like, and that was gonna be your life and now you're you're a bishop. And then like like Hurley Coleman the third, you're selling cars and picture frames and managing facilities and now like like you're community action and you're you're helping people in poverty and, you know, all of these food security and transportation and all of these things. Yeah.
• 9:17
  And what what strikes me about both of your stories is they're so different, but at the same time, they're very similar in just like the diversity of experiences, like you done, you had both done a lot of different things on the surface, completely different from what you're doing right now.
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: I think you may be able to attach the word progression to it.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, tell me more People about
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: ask me sometimes, you know, what do I think, how does God show you what you're going to do? And I've developed over years my own personal definition for providence. You know, it's providence, the providence of God is a progressive revelation of His vision for you. It doesn't happen all
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: at once.
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: It's progressive. So you learn in this stage how to do something, and then somehow or another a window opens up so you can do that in a different space, and it becomes something different, but it's the same thing. And while you're doing that, another space opens up. And your gift, find, especially when you find that you're doing things that benefit you internally. So I remember, you could tell them that.
• 10:32
  I always say to our kids, said, If you can find out what you can do, what you really love doing, and do that, you'll never have to go to a job. You'll always be doing something that fulfills you, and especially if it's something you do whether you got paid or not. And that's the internal motivation for it, and I had no idea, when my brother, oldest brother took me to his kindergarten class for show and tell. I was his show and tell in his kindergarten class because I liked to dance and sing, I was a performer, not realizing that throughout my life I was gonna be a performer. Now I'm a preacher, now I'm in the pulpit, but I'm performing.
• 11:18
  And so even what I do in ministry, it's like that. And I don't think I'm at the end yet, know, he's still revealing it. But my story, I think my story pales in the light of his story because your story has dramatic turns and twists to it, where mine seems like it just kinda goes, okay this ran out, so this is the next. Because I only applied for one job in Wow. My whole
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: What do you think about that, the third?
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: Man, first of all, I mean, I saw it as a child, but to understand his progression as an adult now is just, it's something that my sisters and I talk about all the time. And, he was in demand in his work. He was one of the GOATs and one of the greats in his work. And a lot of things changed because he was leading it. And so as a kid, all we got to do is come to these cool events from Parks And and all we saw was thousands of people that these events, we were getting access to go to the events and seeing it from behind the scenes.
• 12:35
  We were like, man, this is so cool as a kid. But now as an adult, I'm like, oh my God, there were people behind that change. There was policies or there was politics behind you moving that forward. There was things and dials and levers that you had to push to get the organizations that you led to the places that they are. And now that I sit where he sat, I'm like, how in the world
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: did you do that?
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: Because it sounds like you understood the work now, but like as a kid, you're just like, yeah, there's free corn dogs and stuff. I Free love corn dogs
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: and pizza and popcorn. It's really weird, it's really weird. He can tell you, especially when I was in Wayne, well when came to Saginaw from Saginaw County, I left Saginaw County, we had just finished developing Price Nature Center, and had just purchased Hathco Lake. And I was part of helping, John Schultz was an incredible director at that time, the first parks directorate I worked with. This guy had an incredible vision for nature's natural stuff.
• 13:45
  And he's a resource base, he graduated from Michigan State, resource base. I graduated from Eastern Michigan in program administration. I left Saginaw County and came to the city of Saginaw at the time when they were beginning the construction planning for Anderson Waterpark. Wow. So I had, we had Pool, no we had Mershawn Pool over at Houghton School, we Anderson, I mean we had the high school pools, and then Anderson Waterpark opened up, and I was the one that opened up Anderson Waterpark.
• 14:20
  So the kids got to see the water park opened up, not realizing that almost twenty years later I would be in Wayne County Parks, and I would be the director of Wayne County Parks at the time when the city of Detroit leased property to Wayne County to build a water park in the city of Detroit, and they were able to see that well. Yeah, Shannon Park. It's East just things like that. You know, I didn't think about it, it being such a phenomenal thing, it's just I really really loved making things happen. I'll never forget, we were doing that dedication to Channel Park, and one of the older women from the neighborhood came up, and she obviously was a grandmother that had her kids there, she came up to me and she said, are you Mr.
• 15:10
  Coleman? I said, yes ma'am. She grabbed me and she hugged me, tears in her eyes, she said, we never thought anybody would do anything like this for us in our community, in our For me, it was like, do I even need to get paid anymore? The fulfillment of what we do is not always measured in whatever finances that come with it. You know, it's in what difference we make in our lives.
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: Something that you said about providence earlier and that God is revealing He doesn't show you everything.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: The progressive revelation.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the progressive revelation that every step is a preparation and you do the same thing just in a different space. When we were sitting over in the other room waiting for your son to arrive, you had asked me if there was a moment or when was the moment that you realized that this was your calling. And I kind of told you, like, don't know if there was a moment, but what you've said right now brings to mind an important moment to that. I was a couple of years into this community storytelling work and I had posted a story that I had done on my personal Facebook page and one of my fifth grade moms from when I was teaching got into the comments section, Amy Windgyer. She gets in the comments and she said, Phil, I love this story.
• 16:45
  It's so good to see that you're still teaching.
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: And I got in the comments and I said, hi, Amy. It's so good to hear from you. Like, what do you mean? And she said, well, you're you're teaching us about our community. Like, these are things that we would not have known had you not done the story and taught us about where we live.
• 17:03
  Wow. And that was the light bulb for me, that progressive revolution that, like like, a classroom is a community Yeah. And you have to teach the people and you have to get them to buy in and they have to believe in you and they have to trust you and there's gonna be conflict and how do you navigate that? And then you just drag and drop that into community work out in, whatever community it is. And you gotta teach them and you gotta rally them and they have to believe in you and trust you and you have to educate them and all those things.
• 17:33
  I mean, there's your progressive revelation right there. That's powerful.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: That is amazing.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I want I want to ask you this. Let's let's keep diving into this. So like here here you are both with these very varied experiences, and we just talked about kind of like you're doing the same thing just in a different context. Like Hurley Coleman the third, I'll ask you how did your previous experiences at the car dealership selling the picture frames, how did they prepare you for the work that you're doing now?
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: That's a great question, Phil.
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: It's what I do.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: It is what you do. When
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: I think about the first thing that comes to mind that I think about that prepared me for this, my job that I'm doing now, is failure, learning how to fail, and when you do fail, how do you learn from it?
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: Tell me about how to fail.
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: There will be moments where things just don't go right. You know, you you can walk into a situation that's already been designed for you to fail. I in the job what I had with, Cincinnati, I was working for a small organization and pretty much I was gonna be I was brought in to be the fall guy. And I didn't know it. But I but I I truly learned that my impact there, is quick quickly as I was there, I changed that organization.
• 19:09
  I changed it, to be more service oriented, to to bring up the morale because if you have good morale within the warehouse, then people will care about the frames that they're making. And then the orders will go out better because you're strengthening the communication and morale. And then just figuring out how to go into different wells. But when I when I did not, did not stay at that organization due to the politics behind it, I learned that you have to plan. And in planning, you have to see things before it happens.
• 19:46
  You can't just take what you see at face value, but there's always something beyond what you see. And so when I took that into what I'm doing now, I never think that things are going to always be the same, that there always needs to be a plan. There always needs to be a strategy and you always have to be looking forward to what can happen, whether it's good or bad, you just have to be ready. And I wouldn't have learned that hard reality if I didn't have that experience.
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, you got thrown into the thick of CAC right after like during COVID. I mean, like Oh
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: my god.
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: There is like, you can plan and you have no idea what's coming next, like you could really got thrown into the thick of it.
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: No idea. I had no idea what we were encountering. I had no idea what was happening with the government. I had no idea that was happening with the agency and the things that needed to be done to move it forward. I had no idea.
• 20:41
  Like I said yes to the job, but had no idea of the history, what happened with it, where it needed to go. The inside, the people had no idea. So those lessons that I learned, stories, those pep talks you gave me, oh, they got me through.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: Tell tell me about a pep talk that that he gave you. Is there is there one specifically that you said, like, this is the stuff?
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: Yes. One that he said was, that I always used even to this date is when when things are crazy and the environments that you're in are are just volatile and toxic and you you're into your you're you're up until your teeth in work. One of the things that he says is when I said, dad, gotta get this done. I gotta get this done. I gotta get this done.
• 21:28
  And he said, in his voice, he says, son, it's not a race. It's a marathon. It's not a sprint. It's not a sprint. Yeah.
• 21:37
  It's a marathon.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: And I
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: was like, okay. Alright, dad. I got you. He's like, it'll come. Just take your time.
• 21:43
  Take your time. It's all not gonna, it's not gonna all work out right now, but you just gotta, you gotta work through it. Just work through it. Chipping away.
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: Junior, Early Coleman Junior, what about you? Like, how did how did your your parks and rec experience prepare you for ministry?
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: The biggest part of it was that in parks and recreation, I had to learn early that no matter how great a program is, it's not forever. Later on I would put it into a sermon from Ecclesiastes where it says, To everything there's a season and a time for every purpose under heaven, and my sermon title is Things Have Seasons, But Purpose Takes Time. The best programs that we had, I mean, and for a while there, we were recognized in the city of Saginaw, when I was in Saginaw County I was part of the National Parks and Recreation Programming Leadership Team, and I would teach workshops and whatnot. We came up with great programs. When I was at Saginaw County we had this program called Children's Funday.
• 23:00
  And when a person came to us, it was the year of the child, they came to the parks and they said, Is there something you could do for the children? And we got with McDonald's and had Children's Fun Day. And out at Emerman Park, we had well over 1,500 kids at Emerman Park with Ronald McDonald and everything, and we did it for years, but it came to a point where it just wouldn't work anymore. And so the worst thing you can do is to try to make something happen after its time is expended, right? So every great program, as good as it is, only has a season attached to it.
• 23:39
  Then you gotta know how to shift. And you can't be so married to what has always happened that you're not willing to shift, because things have season. The purpose takes time. And that happens in my life. This year already I've had 13 deaths and funerals that I've had to deal with just this year already in our congregation that are connected to our church.
• 24:05
  Every one of those persons that passed away had a family that I had to try to minister to. And none of them were throwaways, every one of them. But all of them had families that had to continue living after that person was gone. There are things that we're doing at the church now that I would love to have been able to do fifteen years ago, but I couldn't. And there are things that we did so well fifteen years ago that I can't even make happen now.
• 24:37
  I can't get lost in what was, because then I'll miss not only what is now, but what I can go to because things have seasons. So one of my biggest lessons was, it actually came to me, I was in a conference, was in a conference, one of National Parks and Recreation conferences, and we were in this meeting and one of the persons came up to me and asked me, So how do you figure out who to hire? And what, you know, how do you figure I said, That's a good question, I'm not really sure. It was early in my career at Wayne County, and I had a lot of people to hire, a lot of positions to fill. And I said, so what do you do?
• 25:20
  And they said, well I look at their resume, then I look at their academic record. And I said, and so what do you do? They said, well the first thing I do is I try to separate the people who got all As from the people who got As, Bs and Cs. And the people who got four point o's, I don't hire them for jobs that really need a lot of creativity. I hire them for jobs that need a lot of analytical thinking and responsibilities to make a memory.
• 25:49
  But for the person that needs to be really creative, I look for that person who had a C average. Because they made it without being perfect.
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: That became one of my mantras, and it resonated with me because I graduated from high school with a average. I graduated from college with a C average.
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: There you go.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: Never thought I
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: would C stands for creativity.
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: That became something, so I never looked past people's creativity no matter what their academic preparation is or what their history is or whatever.
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: I see that.
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: And you get with them right where they are and then help them to be fulfilled. That may be not answering
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: the question. No, I love that because I think that speaks to kind of what you both were saying before about like things change and you need to be ready to navigate that change. And like here you're talking about like, you need to recognize the different gifts of people and then figure out how they can contribute. And I think in both of those, those situations, both of those concepts, like it really takes, leadership. It takes like a good leader to be able to think ahead and say like, this is going good right now, but what happens in five years?
• 27:11
  Or when we're starting to feel like this, like this has kind of run its course, where do we go next? Or I have somebody who I think can really contribute, but we're trying to figure it out, like, do I bring them into this? It really takes a good leader and and in both of your positions of leadership. Like, so what what to you, Curly Coleman Junior first, what what to you defines a good leader? Like what makes a good leader?
• 27:39
  What makes good leadership?
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: Well, a good leader knows how to cut a path, but leadership is following the path.
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: Tell me more about what you mean.
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: Well, a good leader is a guy who can look through a place that doesn't, where there's no path discernible and find the way to make a path in there. But leadership has to have the ability to have everyone behind you following that path along the way. So there are some good leaders who are great explorers, but they won't be good at leadership. They'd be better at being a scout, they'd be better at being somebody who cuts the trail, and then maybe that's their whole purpose. And the leadership comes from someone who knows how to follow them.
• 28:24
  Now that may not be technically the way it goes, it may not fit anybody else's, but for me I know that in every group there are leaders, and then there are people who have great leadership skills.
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I think in the conversation I had yesterday with Brian Pruitt, we talked about this a little bit, in that there's a difference between being a leader and being in a position of leadership. And being a leader is a choice that says like, who's with me, as opposed to like my way or the highway.
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: I learned something through the process of all these different jobs. I was a recreation coordinator, I was a program guy. I put the program together, didn't have a big staff. At the city of Saginaw, was a superintendent, so I had staff. And then when I got to Wayne County, was all of that at the same time.
• 29:18
  And what I found out was that you could be the boss of an organization, but if you don't have leadership behind you, you're not gonna go anywhere.
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. Mhmm.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: So it's leadership that has to be invested in the culture. There's some of the best leadership happens from people who are not the person in charge.
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: That's true. That's good. True. Curly Coleman III, what do you think what defines good a leader or good leadership?
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: I think what defines a good leader, are the intangibles that a person has. And they they use these intangibles to create a mindset, you know, a mantra that kinda guides them, guides their way, and they always seem to kind of come up to the top in the things that they do and how they're made up and how they're, all of the things that they've experienced have allowed them to rise to the top of whatever it is that they're doing, whether it's organization, church, you know, any place a person in the cream rises to the top and that cream has been marinating for something and something else. And they rise to the top. And then leadership, I just think leadership is, like Des said, it's being able to create a pathway for people to follow behind you. But I think good sound leadership is is really being able to hone in on a culture, to hone in hone in on a culture that you wanna create and being able to manifest that culture in real time.
• 31:03
  Oh, yeah. And then also being able to really chart that path. And a good leader will begin to materialize what it is that they're trying to envision. And so, week by week, day by day, month by month, year by year, you're seeing change. People who are following you are seeing the change.
• 31:25
  People who are watching you are seeing the change. Even your enemies are seeing the change because you have figured out a way to create what it is that you see and the people that are following you are able to buy into that and help you create it.
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I love that you honed it on on the culture part of it because they like you can't when you're talking about groups of people, you can't you can't transcend your culture. Oh, that's right. You know, like like if if you don't trust anybody, if if if there's fighting, if there's conflict, if there's poor communication, like, doesn't like, you can hit those plans can be given to you by God Himself written on those stone tablets. And then when you go walking down the mountain and they're worshiping the golden calf, like it doesn't matter like at that point because the culture is broken.
• 32:14
  So I love this idea of like envisioning the culture that you want and that you need, and then being the person is like, okay, then how do we get there? And understanding it's going to take a while. And so how do we take those incremental steps over time to kind of create these cultures? I've got a friend of mine that works with different communities as like a city planner or community planner, and he uses the phrase, Communities move at the speed of trust. And I think about that all
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: the time. Yeah,
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: you can steal that if you want.
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: You can
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: use that in
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: that sermon.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: It's in the list now.
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Because and and I think about that like in the work in Saginaw or whatever community it is, we we're so quick to talk about politics and policy and issues and we definitely should and we need to. But I I wonder if we focused more on building trust first
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: So strong.
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: If then not then we can progress into these tougher conversations in a spirit of like, why trust you? And so then when we disagree, we understand like, well, we both have the best interests of this community at heart, and it's not I'm just firing torpedoes at everybody who disagrees with me. I I wonder if we went if we took a trust first approach
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's that's
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: and addressed trust. Because it's so easy to, like, kinda go back and forth on the Internet and social media about policies and issues and things, but I don't know you from anybody. Right. And so we're just firing torpedoes at each It's like communities move at the speed of trust.
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: I love that. That's good point. Big, big statement. Know, there's one of the great leadership instructors or gurus or people that I've studied from time to time, his name is Sam Chan, and he has a statement about that. He said that culture trumps vision every time.
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yep.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: And so if communities move at the speed of trust, then that means that there's a culture that's built. Like you said, you build the culture of trust, so you recognize what the culture is, and then people within the culture, they do what they always do because they trust that it's always gonna be what it always was at some point in time. If it moves, it changes. It doesn't change because you change the culture, it means that the culture trusts you enough to follow everything. That's huge man.
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It's like to me it just determines everything.
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: If I use it, I'm gonna give you credit the first time, but after that I'm only
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: gonna That's you fine. Can write it on like a headstone, you can take credit for it. Commitments move at of trust.
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Think about what you just said, and consider our community. The community we're in now, Saginaw, with all the things that's going on, all the challenges that's going on, the different levels of government, different levels of organization, economic development, it seems like the economic development world is going this way, the academic world is going this way, the faith community is going this way, social action community is going this way, and then you know there's this commonality of people in need that's right in the middle that's waiting for somebody to say, oh how are you gonna save us? And where is the trust factor in all of that? What would instigate or instigate the growth of trust when it looks like the economic development agenda is against the community service agenda.
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I Yeah. I mean, let's just refine that for a little bit. To me, like the first step is consistent communication. Like if if I don't if if I don't talk to my wife for weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks, or we do have minimal conversation because we're busy with work or whatever, it's gonna be really hard to have a strong relationship simply because the mechanics of the relationship aren't there.
• 36:09
  So there's gotta be clear and consistent communication. But there's also a really interesting study on trust back in the, I think the seventies. They wanted, researchers out at like Harvard, Princeton, Ivy Leagues, they wanted to understand why people bought from one brand instead of another. So why did you buy Coke instead of Pepsi and vice versa? They did all the research, they did all the studies, and it came down to kind of an obvious answer that said, well, people trust Coke because when I buy the Coke, I'm going to have a positive experience, I'm going to love this taste, and so I'm going to buy Coke.
• 36:49
  And so then the next step became, well, what creates trust? How do we create trust? And through all of the studies that they did afterwards and all of the infinite elements of human personalities and things like that, they narrowed it down to two elements. And in order to create trust, you need to display warmth and competence. Some people use, empathy and authority.
• 37:16
  So I need to be friendly to you. I need to signal like we would make a good team together. So that's tact and that's personality and it signals to your brain that like, this this is a person that if we we were on a team together, we would work well together. So I could be really, really smart and really, really brilliant, but if I treat you like you're nothing or I'm angry or frustrated all the time. You're like, man, that guy's really smart, but I just don't like him very much because he makes me feel bad.
• 37:47
  On the flip side of it, the competence side, you need to you also need to display like, I know what I'm talking about. I'm I'm I'm qualified. Here's proof. Here's the work that I've done, etcetera, etcetera. Because you can be really nice, but if you're not very confident, people are like, yeah, they're friendly, but he doesn't know anything he's talking about.
• 38:08
  So the what the research said that once you display both empathy and authority or warmth and competence, those two things combine to create trust. So to me, kind of a clue is like how do we create trust is how do we create situations where people, experience the warmth of others, that their personality, the human side of it, but then at the same time, how can we highlight and interact with others' competencies? So I'm not a minister, but I can be in a situation where I'm like Hurley Coleman, Jr. Is the pastor, man. He's the dude.
• 38:45
  But I'm the media guy, and so we can play with those competencies, and now we can trust. Now we can say like, well, let's do this project together because I you. Right. So that to me is kind of the clues. Can we create situations where we have one on one or small group interactions where we can feel each other's personality, we get to know each other, what we're good at, what we're not, and then we build from there.
• 39:06
  That's just what I think.
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: And I I think to that point, people, and I've seen this where people didn't know me from, you know, anywhere. They didn't know me. Yeah. But when they sat with me, they had a change of heart. Yep.
• 39:23
  And I think that that communication opportunity created the change of heart Mhmm. So that they can go back in and decide to become a different person. Yep. And approach what we want to do together differently from where they wanted to start. And I think that trust opened that door because we were able to communicate with each other.
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: Find understanding. That's, both of the things that you both said are critical, empathy and that competency, and then the exposure, the personal exposure. But the greatest enemy to trust is the lack of consistency. So if I can impress you today and just man, away and say man, that guy, wow. Then the next time you see me, if I'm an altogether different guy, well who is that this time?
• 40:22
  So the next time you see me, be careful at first because you gotta find out, well which Hurley is this now? And I think that that may be one of the most challenging things in a present environment, because if you're not consistent, you know, sometimes people get into a position and they're great, and you've got so much expectation and excitement about it, and then all of a sudden, who's this person? And what you expected is totally different. So that empathy that you trusted, and that competency that you look for in your present exposure, you expect it the next time. Mhmm.
• 41:12
  So how do you guarantee that they'll be there without personally making sure that whatever I present to you this time, it ought to be authentic enough so that the next time Yeah. You meet
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: don't have It's to real. Make it real. Hurley Coleman Junior, I wanna ask you this. You decided to go into ministry after your father passed away.
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: I didn't. You didn't?
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: I didn't decide.
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: Tell me, tell me about It that
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: decided and told me that that's what I was doing.
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: Tell me that moment.
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: That moment when my father passed away, I wasn't even in town. I was in Jacksonville, Florida with my oldest brother, he had just gotten married. My father came back to Saginaw. The night before the wedding, he and I and my wife had sat in his room at the hotel, pre Friday night before the wedding Saturday, and he talked to me about everything he could think of for four hours. From 10:00, it was more than that, from 10:00 until three in the morning, he just talked.
• 42:31
  I'll never remember all of it at once, but he was really just kind of unloading. And then the next day he was getting ready to come back to Saginaw, and he said, What are you doing tomorrow? I said, I'm probably going to church. He said, Do you have to? I said, Not really.
• 42:50
  He said, Are you preaching to someone? I said, No. He said, have an assignment? I said, No. He said, Well, why don't you and your wife just sleep in and rest, you know, relax.
• 42:59
  You're gonna need your strength. I said, Okay. So we didn't. It was Sunday, we slept late, we stayed in, and we got a late breakfast, and while we were sitting there late breakfast we said, you know, instead of going to this convention, why don't we just go back to Saginaw, help dad move from one house to the next? Because he was moving from one house to the next, to another house.
• 43:21
  And then three hours later I got a call that he had had a heart attack and died. So we were going to go back to Saginaw and help him transition from one house to the next. When I got to Saginaw, all of a sudden there was no question that I had to provide spiritual leadership for the church and for the family, because at that point in time I'm the senior ordained minister in our family and in the church. And I was already his assistant, so it just fell on me. Before I knew it, before I knew it, was sitting in that place.
• 44:04
  It wasn't my plan. And I don't think there was ever a time that I decided that I was going to be the pastor in Saginaw, but there was a time when I accepted that that's what I was supposed
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: to do. Oh, interesting. Powerful. Interesting. What year was that when you took over?
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: 2001.
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: 2001? How are you a different minister now than you were in that day one taking over the church?
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: I'm 25 years older. What those years taught me was that destiny and purpose, and this is going to sound kind of cookie for people who don't want to hear, can't hear it through the spiritual discernment, destiny and purpose are not mine to create, but they are mine to possess. And that destiny and purpose for Hurley Coleman Junior was something that was created before I was born. And so it's now mine to walk in it. So that means that I've got to walk by faith.
• 45:21
  That means that I automatically accept that there are going to be things in front of me that I have no idea they're coming, I have no idea it's going to work out, I have no idea how I'm going to deal with it, but my faith says that if I come to it, that I'll get through it by the help of God. That is not the guy that was standing at my father's casket twenty five years ago. Different guy.
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: Who was he?
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: That guy was the guy that wanted to spend the rest of his life doing parks and recreation and retire on a golf course and just, you know, kind of chase balls for the rest of my life and be happy and have fun.
• 46:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: Have a great family and have fun.
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: Hurley Coleman III, you're five years into CAC. How are you how are you a different and and I do I think we've had this conversation you do define your work at CAC as a ministry. How how are how are you ministering different? Or how are you a different leader from the person you were day one in 2021? I was
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: excited to get the opportunity. I spent a lot of my career feeling like I was cast aside or looked down on, like I qualified enough. And so I operated, when I started with, man, I'm just grateful to have the opportunity. I'm grateful to be able to help people, grateful to be able to do this. And five years later, I'm still yet grateful.
• 46:59
  I'm still yet thankful for the opportunity. I still appreciate the fact that I'm one of a few executive directors even in the country that are black. And so I do take that with a grain of salt, and I'm grateful and humbled by it and thank God for that opportunity. But I think the areas that I changed is that I did not know the weight of being number one. There's a weight to being the one where everything where it all falls on you.
• 47:34
  People's problems, people's, things that they have to deal with, that they bring to you, the organization and its future, you know, all of those things, the weight of that being number one, I didn't understand it, and I I know that it's it's it's like a cross that you carry. You know that, you're a pastor, you're the number one. So I didn't understand that weight until I took this five years later. And so my takeaway is it kind of stems around the area of responsibility. And I'm a lot more responsible these days.
• 48:13
  I'm a lot more careful these days and you gotta learn quick. You have to learn the lessons quick and know that you're number one, so you gotta learn quick. And so there are a lot of things that I wouldn't do now that I maybe have done to start that I wouldn't do now. And I'm I'm not upset about what's happened five years later. Because just like dad said, said it so well, I have to think that everything that I sacrificed, everything that I've had to do was a part of the plan.
• 48:55
  And so I have to be okay with everything that is different in my life now five years later. So I am a totally different person. I'm a totally different person, but yet I'm the same. I don't know if that makes any sense.
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Minister Coleman, what would you say to your son? Like talking about this burden of leadership and of the isolation that comes with that. What would you say to him?
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: The perspective that I have is a scriptural perspective, and it's from one of my favorite books in the Bible, written by one of my favorite characters in the Bible. Apostle Paul writes in the eighth chapter of Romans, this verse that says, and we know that all things work together for good to them that love God and who are the called according to his purpose. Whenever you're in your purpose, not that you made for yourself, but the one that you're called to, things are going to happen, right? But ultimately you have to believe that everything that happens is gonna work to your good. And then you have to resolve that if all things are going to work together, then all things have to happen.
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: I mean, I was The Curly Coleman the third, as as as you were talking about, like, that burden of leadership, the the the picture that popped into my head was Jesus by himself in the Garden Of Gethsemane. The night before, he's like, Father, like if there is
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: Is any way
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: If there is any other Like way
• 50:46
  Speaker 3: this cup pass.
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: Like, if there's any other way that we can do
• 50:49
  Speaker 3: There's this got to be
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: another way to get this done.
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Like like, so you have Jesus himself saying like, this is this is too much. Like, this is too much. Like, if God himself is feeling the burden of leadership, who are we to assume that we shouldn't also feel the same?
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: Or that will escape it.
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: Or that will escape it. Like it's not a privilege that we're promised or given. And so it's I think that kind of living in those two worlds of it, like we have to embrace it, but at the same time it doesn't make it easier, like, because you just you have to embrace it. Like, also to just talk to your boy Paul, like he talks about the thorn in his flesh. He's like, man, like, you gotta take this away.
• 51:33
  Take this away, Please take this away.
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: Especially since I've seen you do it so many times for so many other people, I'm your guy. Right. I'm your guy.
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: I'm Paul, man.
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: Come on. At least you can do this for me so I
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: can
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: keep going.
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: Yes. No.
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: Yep. Oh, you gotta have this, man.
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah. You gotta keep it there.
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: You gotta carry this.
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: I I wanna I wanna ask you both both this. What because I because I love my my angle of, like, I'm sitting at the other end of the table, like, watching you two kind of talk and and look at each other and and, like, have this kind of conversation that that I'm I'm just a witness to. What Curly Coleman Junior first, what what is something that you now looking at your son in the position that he's in and the things that he's done, what what is something that you admire about the person that he's he is or has become? Pretty much everything. Wow,
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: dad. I'm completely I'm completely overwhelmed by the man that he has become. And I wonder if there's anything that I can take credit for, because I think he's articulate, he's dynamic in his vision and leadership, he's compassionate because he can't find anything that's too small for him to do, he's industrious and hardworking, he's frugal in that he manages his resources to such a degree that I don't know how he gets done what he gets done with what he has, but at the same time, he finds ways to create enjoyment. He is an incredible father. He does an incredible job of making his relationship with his family, he has an overwhelming love for his siblings.
• 53:34
  I don't think there's anything, and I hope this doesn't come across as too soupy, goopy, loopy, but I don't think there's anything that I don't like or couldn't be proud of, except the fact that I wish I could be him. He is I think he's taken on for him to take on this legacy position in our community. CAC is a legacy organization, it's one of the oldest community serving organizations in our community, second to the first war community center in African American community on the East Side. My father was instrumental in helping to create CAC. My father was, his grandfather was instrumental in the creation of CAC for the purpose of doing what it's doing now.
• 54:32
  And for him to be fulfilling that vision without even knowing that he was actually paternally connected to the initiation of that vision. Just makes, he and wife, and our family, just makes us proud to see him. And I sometimes just kind of want to be there, sit back in the crowd and watch him, and be like the guy in the movie said, that's my boy over there. I know that sounded kind of over the top, but it's not even I don't think I even said it well enough.
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: How does it make you feel, especially like considering what you were saying earlier about having a history of like feeling like you're cast aside and you're like you're not acknowledged. Like how does it make you feel to to hear that kind of acknowledgment from your father?
• 55:26
  Speaker 3: Man, I think, you know, there's moments in life where you you don't have words to say. This is probably one of those moments. And it is something that maybe everybody can probably capture and probably feel it. Because I think a son always wants to feel that admiration or make sure or feel the fact that their their dad is proud of
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: them. Mhmm.
• 55:51
  Speaker 3: So to physically see you say that, like, this fills my cup. And, and it makes it makes the sacrifice and makes the stress makes it all worth it. When your dad can say, I watched you do this and I'm proud of you, and then list off the things like, man, like I'm I'm full.
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: He was going finger by finger.
• 56:13
  Speaker 3: Full as a son, man. Like there's nothing nothing left in me that that won't won't be able to appreciate this moment. I probably will live with me for the rest of my life because a son wants to know that. And I know you said it time and time again, but it gives you the strength that you need to keep going. And so it's it becomes your armor.
• 56:38
  It becomes your protection when you when you feel that and know that you're supported.
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: And that's that's important. When when you walked in, your dad and I were talking for a little bit and you you you walked into the the studio and I said something like, well, you're gonna sit in the car. I'm like, I'm loving talking to your dad. You were just like, like Hurley Coleman junior. He's the man.
• 57:00
  Like, he's the man. And like, and I just saw that, like the immense amount of love and respect that you have for your father, like where does that love and respect come from? What is it that you love or that you've learned about?
• 57:14
  Speaker 3: I think as a child, he took me with him. He took me with him on his journey. And as a child, I got to see him in his spaces. You know, as a five year old, I was looking up at him, tugging at his at his pants leg because I couldn't reach his belt, but him standing next to my grandfather in a prayer circle, him walking through the renovation of phase three in the eighties, and I'm a child, and him walking through smelling the new paint, the new drywall at the church, it's on Wadsworth. But he took me with him.
• 57:56
  So, he's he's taught me the things about life. He showed me what it what it means to go to college, how to graduate, how to get through it. He showed me how to apply for a job. He showed me how to ride a bike. He showed me how he's showing me and he showed me.
• 58:15
  And he showed me his favorite artists, know, Earth, Wind and Fire. He he showed me his his his guys, the GAP band, you know, all of the all of the cats in the seventies. And and he showed me, he told me the stories of who he was and how he became who we became. And when you have that type of relationship where you can be yourself and be able to still pour back, like as a son, you're like, man, just want to be around him. I just want to be close because he's developed that relationship.
• 58:47
  And that's for all fathers out there, man. Just pour into your kids, Pour into them and show them who you really are, because they want to know. They got questions. And a lot of questions they won't have to ask if you just show them. And I think that's what he's done for
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: me. Well, what you've done for me is a really incredible conversation, and it's been beautiful to witness, like, not just your thoughts, but also the relationship that you that you both have, for each other. And I just I wanna thank you for for this conversation and I wanna thank you because you both don't get enough thanks for the work that you do for us here in in Saginaw. It's, it's been an absolute honor and privilege to to sit here and chat with you. So thank you so much.
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: I'm extremely honored to have been asked to sit. I never anticipated being a part of a podcast and you being so well recognized and well presented. Saginaw doesn't even know how significant it is to have Phil Ike in our community. That's right, that's right. Mean, doing what you're doing in communities all over the country, and it's not gonna be surprising to me that when the world of podcasts starts getting Grammys, you'll be in the list, you know?
• 1:00:11
  Because your resume is amazing. So for me to be invited to be here with you, and then to be in a program with this guy. Mhmm. Mhmm. I I you know, all I need now is ice cream cake.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 3: It's the
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: greatest party in the
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: world. There's a great ice cream place right across the corner. That place is good. It is so good. Cream and sugar.
• 1:00:36
  Well, I wanna thank you guys so much for the time for the conversation. Hurley Coleman junior, Hurley Coleman the third. Thank you so much, man.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 3: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: You guys are awesome.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 3: Oh, that was amazing.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: Wasn't that cool?
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: That was
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 3: great, man. Yeah.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: I don't know.