Latest / The Permission Slip / S1 | E9 Ben Goldberger - Breathworking Psychotherapist

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S1 | E9 Ben Goldberger - Breathworking Psychotherapist · The Permission Slip

• S1 E9 Goldberger === Hi, my name is Matt Costman. I'm a 56-year-old white guy living in Chicago, Illinois. For the first 50 plus years of my life, I didn't think I was allowed to be here, not just here in Chicago, but here on earth in a body. I suffered from depression for most of my life. I smoked my first joint at age 11 and had my first drink of southern comfort straight from the bottle at age 13. While the cannabis never really took hold as an addiction, I drank alcohol for the next 20 years, many times to excess. In 1998, I began psychotherapy, and in the year 2000 I started on antidepressants. I spent 12 years on them in 15 years in traditional talk therapy. Meanwhile, I built a successful business, became a father to two amazing girls, and rehabbed an old house in a nice suburb. I did all the things. In 2010, I went through divorce, foreclosure, and bankruptcy, fun times. After much flailing about, I got my head on straight in 2015, only to begin experiencing severe chronic pelvic pain along with fibromyalgia. I spent nearly three years in the Western medical system. Trying desperately to heal in 2018. Out of money and out of patience. My healing journey really kicked into gear after my first magic mushroom trip. The years since have been an amazing and challenging ride. I've traversed the physical and not so physical worlds and been fortunate to work with many, many talented healers. As a result of all my efforts, I now find myself in a place of receiving contentment and prosperity, the likes of which had alluded me for most of my life. There's a man named Daryl Anka, who channels a being called Bashar. Bashar describes the process of engaging with a healer that, of giving yourself what is essentially a permission slip to move towards wholeness healing and right relationship. This podcast is an effort to share some of what I've learned and introduce you to some of the people in ways that literally gave me what feels like my permission slip for existence. It's also an effort to continue to spread the word. That the traditional Western medical system, while effective for a great many things, is not necessarily the be all, end all solution to every health problem, especially when the problem may be more spiritual than it is physical, as it was in my case. Thanks for joining me. I hope you enjoy it. Please like, subscribe and do all the social media things that help spread the word. Share these links with people directly in your community. It is my sincere hope that you and others will benefit from my experiences. Hi, welcome back to the permission slip. Uh, this is Matt Costman and I'm here today with Ben Goldberger, a man that I've known for, gosh, I think about four years now. Um, and the part of me that wants to always know. How I got connected with somebody is going crazy 'cause I can't remember how we got connected. Oh, that's good. And neither can I, so it might have been a web search. So anyway, welcome Ben. Thanks for being here. Yeah, I, I'll go back and look afterwards 'cause I want to know now. I'll find you the first email. Find the first email that I sent. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So Ben is a licensed psychotherapist, right? What's the, what are they on, what are the initials? What are the Yeah, so, um, can give us, it's funny, I, I, that's accurate and some people need to know who come to me, but I'm a licensed clinical social worker. That's the LCSW. Um, but I don't lead with the licensed because I'm, I don't know, there's, and we'll get into this, but I'm sort of, it's like just enough of my background with, but I've sort of deinstitutionalized myself over the Yeah. Years and especially the last year or so. But yes, I'm licensed and, and been practicing a psychotherapist for. Uh, 15 years, quite a while. Yeah. And, uh, the way I I know that I came to you was through breath work through your, one of your workshops. Yeah. Uh, a week, a Saturday workshop. And, uh, and it was amazing. And, and so I'm here today to introduce people to you and you to people that might be listening and talk about how you are, talk about your origin story, how you came to do this work, and what kind of work you're doing and, um, all that kind of stuff. So, um, with that, I mean, I guess I would just have you tell us how, how did you, how did you get to be an LCSW? What was the, what, what, what, what, what did you, what did you overcome? What was, you know, the, what was the wounded healer path Right. That we all take. Right. Right. Uh, no, that's a, that's a good question. And, and actually it, um. It, it's part, I mean, it's the same sort of, it's one of the threads of the story of how I started doing breath work and, um, and started facilitating breath work. Uh, but, um, there's so many different points to start. Uh, so I would say probably the journey for me began, um, being lost in my, I would say late twenties. Just really didn't have a, a really good sense of myself. I was lots of depression, anxiety, um, and, and, and where did, where did you, you grew, you're from Chicago area, right? Yeah. Born in Chicago. Yeah. Um, grew up here and, uh, central in, in Columbus, Ohio. Some as well. That's right. But Chicago's home, north side, uh, Rogers Park, Hyde Park. Uh, some and, uh, but yeah, Chicago, Chicago area, Columbus. Yeah. And then ho Home. Home life was idyllic. Not idyllic. Yeah. No. What, what, what, uh, like therapists worked. Their salt has had a real I perfect home life. Right. Um, but, um, no, I, I had, um, uh, it, it, there was a lot of turbulence early on. Um, my, my parents split when I was four. Um, you know, a lot of stress. I mean, I still have like, and kind of some of the trauma I've worked, uh, worked through in my life has been, um, literally memories from that time, the fighting and ah, okay. Um. You know, um, the explosive anger stuff. And, um, but I was four and, uh, when my parents split, my father, uh, got a job. Uh, he's a retired law professor, and, and my mother stayed in Chicago, and so he went to teach at Ohio State. And, and my mother, uh, stayed here. She remarried, um, and then got divorced a couple years after that. So lots and lots of turbulence in those like critical developmental stages for me. So yeah, not so not surprising that in your twenties you didn't have a good sense of self. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was basically like raging against it in some way. As soon as I hit like, I don't know, latency, you know, like eight, nine, and then just careening looking, searching, um, think I, I, I, I went from like kind of ex uh, extreme atheism in my. Uh, teen years to discovering spirituality on my own terms. Um, really through through LSD in music, Uhhuh. I was a raver in the nineties, and, um, I'm still bummed. I, I, I skipped that whole thing. Yeah. Like I, I, I was like, oh, those drugs will melt your brain. That stuff's no good. And I, I just, I look back and I, it would've been, it would've been a hoot, but, yeah. Well, it, well, and it was something, it was like, there was, um, I mean this is, you know, not the whole story. I don't wanna make it all about this, but there was something in the, the, like expansion and there was room for me to be serious about without having any real structure to it. But just like going deep in, into the, these like big open states and exploring with music and my body, with dance. With dance. Dance. Yeah. And it became this kind of like, it was like my church, like every Saturday I would take LSD and go to a, a party to go to an event. You know these big warehouse parties? Yeah. Shelter and all of the places. Yeah. And just underground stuff, but not a venue. Ah, right, okay. Because in the Midwest there was a huge underground scene. So people would just go from a, there'd be warehouses and stuff, you know, somebody bring a generator somewhere, you'd go, you know, in the woods or wherever. Yeah. So, um, and it was just like this open format, open space, freedom to explore. And so suddenly new ideas I wanted to explore, you know, um, I just, you know, discovered Ram Das at around that time Oh, nice, nice. And got really connected with, with that, that just opened me up, like, oh God is love. Like that notion where I had been rejecting any notion of. Any, you know, atheism was like a safe home for me. Sure. Right. Sure. It was like, you know, you know, fuck the orthodoxy of whatever it was that, that I felt oppressed by. Yeah. So it was just all this, you know, room to explore. There were no guides, there were no elders, there were no, um, there was no structure to it, but I kind of didn't want that either. I didn't trust adults. Yeah. Um, even though you, and so even though you sort of were one but without a prefrontal cortex. Well, yeah. I was a, I was a ma I was a child in a, in a young man's body. Right, right, right. And that, that goes on for a while. I mean, that's, there's a lot of that in this world. Yeah. You can be, you can be 20 or 50 and, uh, going through the same stuff. So, so anyway, yeah. That's, that's sort of like the, the kind of the primordial goo that, like some of this started in, but it was, and a lot of it be, some of it became reference points for me moving forward that I came back to later as I started to like. You know, figure out, you know, more of like what I want to do, what I'm about, and, and led me to, um, eventually led me to breathwork. Like I can trace a, a line uhhuh from all of that into breathwork to discovering, uh, Stan Gruff, who was the guy like the, the creator along with his wife. Um, she's now passed, but Christina gr they, um, started holotropic breath work. And so, um, but my interest in all of that, you can, I can trace it directly back to that, to the rave scene. Yeah. Yeah. Because, um, I started, you know, then I discovered, well there, there's people who are studying or exploring or writing about or doing breath work for these expanded states of consciousness. And, um, and so I eventually discovered Stan Groff. Mm-hmm. Um, I, I can't remember the order, but um, it was around the time. When I also, um, discovered men's work and, um, which is, was this kind of like, um, in which you're familiar with too? Yeah, yeah. We just, we did, in our previous conversation, we figured out that we both, I, I just recently went through the Mankind project. Um, yeah, the, the, the New Warrior training. Um, yeah, because I, I tend to, I think somebody described me as a sommelier. I need to taste all the wines. I to have a little bit of this, a little, that one, and just so I get kind of cross reference. So I just did that about a month ago and it's a, it's a, it's a fantastic program. So you, you discovered that, when was this in your twenties, thirties? I was, I was 29. Uh, I think, yeah, I think I was 29. And, um, like I said, I was, I'd done all the like, kind of field research I could. I had a therapist, my therapist at the time introduced me. I said, I, I need some stuff to read. I want to like. You know, what do I, how do I learn about what we're talking about? And he gave me this book, king Warrior, magician Lover. Okay. Yeah. Which is such a, it's, it's high enough level like that, it's sophisticated enough that it's not, um, I don't know. It's a way, like it held your, it held your attention. It wasn't, it It did, but it's also really accessible and it, and a lot of, if you go into Jung, like just straight into his writings, um, it, it's like a lifetime of trying to figure out what's going on here. Mm-hmm. Because he's so deep. Right. Um, and a lot of it is hard to penetrate, um, you know, to really grasp it. And so there's people who had done all this work and kind of boil it down into this, like what they started calling neo youngian. Okay. And, and that book formed like a lot of the. Uh, ideas, um, that the, the Mankind project kind of RIFed off of to create the Yeah. That's their, yeah, that's their core kind of thing and Exactly. It. I, I, it's actually, I, I find it very funny. I used to have a photo lab over on Fulton Market in the early, in the two thousands, early Auts, and I would drive by mankind's headquarters building. Yeah. And, and, and, and there was something in me, and I was, I was, I had a therapist. I was on meds, I was super depressed and stuck and there was like, hmm. That's interesting. But no, like there was this, you know? Mm. I might have to, I might have to talk about my feelings, you know, or Yeah. Or, or, or shit. Like it was just, it was almost like a force field push pulling me and pushing me at the same time. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You feel the attraction repulsion and repulsion. And now here we are 20 years later that I, you know, finally got around to, to doing it. It was great. Yeah. Well, it, it was funny because I suddenly, I was like, I read that book and I was like, where is this? You know, like, and I just, I had to have it. And I think, you know, I had a, a real, my relationship with my father changed over the years. He actually did a lot of his own work, and we've since repaired, but it was really damaged. And so the, like, the, the elder, the, the, the, the masculine in my life was not, not available. I had a great In your, in your formative years, was that Yeah, I had a grand, my, my mother's father, my grandfather Marty, uh, Matthews was. Really influential to me, and I, I could talk about him. Fascinating guy. And actually that was my introduction to Yung and Archetypes and through him. So you had, so you had a, a male figure. It just wasn't all the time. It wasn't there all the time. Yeah. Not, not fair. Not so often. Yeah. But, um, but he was, he was present. Um, but at this point, you're not, was missing at this point, you're not a therapist yet. No, not even close. And I was, but I was just missing that and looking for that. And so, like, I walked, I remember going in and I wanted to check out a, you know, a men's circle and uh, and I was just like, yeah, I'm just sign me up. Like I was pretty desperate, you know, I was really dealing with a, a, a, a stuck depressive state. Um, smoking a lot of, lot of weed and, um. And just kind of, you know, spinning out. Like I, I might have had an alcohol problem that I was, you know, I don't drink now. Mm-hmm. But I, you know, I was just kind of trying to numb, numb it out. Numb. Yeah. And, um, and that just, that really cracked me open. And in such a, the men, the men's work, the group. Yeah. Yeah. And not just like in, oh, um, we lance the wound and all the trauma comes out and now what? But I was, I really felt held by, by that and a place to come back to. Um, this is after you did the, during the weekend? Yeah. Well, yeah, weekend, the weekend. And then after that I had a group, um, like that I met with every week and I had this amazing, uh, therapist I'm still connected with. He's retired, but, um, and, uh, and he was, he hadn't done that work, but he was really attuned to that. And he also held this elder kind of father energy that I'd been. Um, looking for, um, and, um, and so I would go to, I'd go to my group. I think I went to group on Tuesday and uh, and I'd go to therapy on Thursday. So we do like this? Yeah. Tag. Tag and a lot of like Yeah. And a lot of bio, what we call bioenergetic work. So it was like psychodrama, like, oh, get into your body. Yeah. Okay. What, where do you feel it? What's going on? Okay. And I could go every week and have this like, and you move right into these non-ordinary states of consciousness, these healing through the bioenergetics. Yeah. The somatics moving the body and where's it located? And what does this remind you of from your childhood? And then. Getting a chance to try to re-script it with the guys in the room. Yeah. Just totally like, whoa. And we're not, there's no like, expert in the room. There's no pro, there's no Right. That's what, yeah. Psychologist. Yeah. It's all, that's what I found. It's all just layman. It's all just, yeah, dude. There might be a, a psychologist in the house, but it's not his job to run things, you know? Right, right, right, right. So yeah, so that was just awesome. And I, um, I did that for a while. And the cool thing, and I want to tie this into the purpose of our conversation into breath work, is that I, I, I then, I was really reading about Groff and I was like, oh, wow, there's this whole world of people doing this stuff. And I read about breath work and um, and then there's, there was, you know, in the olden days when we had listservs and stuff Right. Um, and there was this robust listserv through the Mankind project and um, and somebody put an ad for holotropic breath work. In Rockford now there's a, you can throw a stone and you'll find a holotropic breath work workshop. Like anywhere you go to like San Francisco there. Yeah. Yeah. Any, any other ma sort of coastal city. Yeah. And al and also what they say about the west coast is like if you, it was like they took a, a map and, and tip tilted it and whatever wasn't nailed down. Yeah. Wound up. No, but I, but I love that pulled down again, the west coast. Yeah. But the west, I mean, there's just so much like adventurous and, and, and all that's, that's the, that's, that's a, that's a dis you know, to some degree. And maybe there's some truth in that, but, um, but it's also like, you know, maybe we wish we had a piece of that. They definitely tend to be ahead of the curve in with all. Oh, no doubt. With all of this kind of holistic, spiritual. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And so, so that was, and I even, and almost went to school out there just to kind of follow that. But anyway, so I had heard about it being out there, being in, or like Naropa or, um, there was the Omega Institute Yeah. In New York and all this, but not like Chicago. And here's this guy in New, in, in, in Rockford, in Rockford, and he's connected to the Mankind project. So I was like, yeah, so sign me up for that. So I just started going to these and, and Rockford for the geographic, for those that aren't from Chicago. Oh, sorry, yeah. Rockford's about 90 minutes, uh, from Chicago hour, 90 minutes and yeah. And, and Chicago is, uh, you know, very like, robust, diverse and tends to be more like liberal city. And, and Rockford is a very conservative kind of manufacturing. Yeah. And really postindustrial. Kind of depressed. It's coming up more now, but you know it like a lot of towns at size. 25 years ago it was story. Yeah, yeah. You could see it just taking a massive hit after, uh, yeah, after nafta. So, um, so anyway, um, yeah. So I started going out there and, and I think for probably eight years I was going to, to workshops on and off. No shit. Wow. And yeah, and just, I was looking for whatever. Right, right, right. And then, um, eventually, uh, he offered, uh, James Frazier, uh, was the, uh, facilitator and then, um, offered a training. Okay. And I, I think you, and you're still not a therapist at this point in this eight years, did you? Me? No. When, when did that, so. Um, so I started, I went to school when I was for, for to be a therapist when I was 33. Okay. So get two. Yeah. Um, and, uh, and so I, I wanna say it was, no, I actually, at that point, once I was ready to start the breath work training, I had been a therapist. It's, I think it was three years into my work. And, and I just want, I wanna back up for those that are listening that might not know what breath work is and just, just Yeah. Yeah. Just, just define that. Right. So, so that, that's, yeah, you're right. Yeah. Just s we, we know and we've done it and thank you. Yeah. So why don't you just, just talk, talk a little bit about what breath work. I mean, there's multiple styles, but al with the essence of it. Yeah, sure. So, well, so breath work is not, there's so much breath work out there. There's. Um, pranayama. There's Wim Hof has Wim Hof become, uh, pretty popular. I mentioned holotropic breath work, right? And, um, I think a lot of people learned about that, either from Stan Gruff who's the originator of it, and also, um, Michael Pollens, how to Change your mind. Yeah, he did a, he did a trip, again, a lot of pe and he really spoke highly of it. And so people were like, oh, okay, let me pay attention to that. Um, so the word holotropic means simply towards wholeness. Ho holo is wholeness, tropic towards wholeness, right? Um, so this form of breath work is done. Um, at the most basic level. It's a one full day workshop. It's a group workshop, um, smaller and, and the way I, I kind of cap it at 20 maximum. Um, you might find bigger ones. I mean, there's. You, you can find bigger ones. Sure. Um, but I like that kind of tightness of the, the group in the container. Um, and, um, so the actual like breath work itself, the mechanism of it is, it's deeper, faster breathing. So a lot of other forms of breath work are kind of, um, they're very structured. They're, they're, you might, you know, breathe in and hold count, release, you know, um, in through a nostril, out through the other nostril. Breathe, breathe in, then breathe out and hold on the out and then and count. Yeah. I think Wim does some of that where you Yeah. Out. I've done Wim h once, so I'm not super versed in that. I think it's holding on the out, but ultimately you are substantially changing the rhythm of your normal breathing. Right. And in, in order to, and you're, it's much deeper, much deeper, much faster and longer. That's the similarity. And, um, yeah. So you, I mean, deeper, deeper, faster, longer, you're, you're holding that for Exactly. Yeah. Uh, and that, and to stay with that is, that's the, the trick. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's, it's fascinating because it of, of the physiological changes that your body undergoes Yeah. In that, and it mo it literally moves you into non-ordinary consciousness. Yeah. And, and now, um, well, so I, I want to bookmark that Sure. Term non-ordinary. 'cause that's a, a good one. Um, but, um, but the, the breath work is, so, it's, it's set to music. And, and that's another key is there's not somebody telling you what to do when, um, so the lights are low. And, um, under the holotropic model, there's no d because I've been, I've done breath work where somebody is kind of exactly counting it out or guiding you. And this holotropic is you, you start, you fire up the music and you breathe. Exactly. And there's, so we do create a container. But there's, um, you know, just around basic safety, right? Confidentiality, but also there's a sense of, uh, creating what I refer to as a sacred space. Sacred space intentions are stated by the, you know, yeah. That puts their intentions in. And, and also an invitation to every person in the room to help co-create the container. Yeah. So it's not just me sitting here, like I'm the grand, like, you know, yeah. Right. Whatever, right. Puba. But doing this, like, you know, um, all this on my own, no. Like, I, I don't, like, I'm just, I'm gonna anchor it for today. There's something bigger than all of us. And, and we're gonna embody that as a group, right. And greater than some of our parts. Um, so that's really, really important as a, and we intentionally create that container and release it at the end of the day. And then we also, there's a partner aspect of it too. So people pair up, there's a sitter and a breather. Session one, and then you switch rolls after lunch and session two. Yeah. Which is so great. It's nice and supportive. You know that there's somebody there to grab you, you can keep your eye mask on. 'cause that's the other element of it, right? Is you, you go and typically put an eye mask on to block out. You don't have to but to block out. Yeah. And the lights are low. The lights are low. Some people may choose not to, but yeah. You want the ideas for it to be a really internal Yeah. Experience. But it's a, it's a, it's a great format, especially for people who are new to this because you're supported, there's somebody there if you need water, if you need Kleenex, if you need a blanket, if you need, you know, energy, something, a hand on your foot, whatever you ask for. Yeah. Yeah. And to know that your choice, your agency is central. It's at the center. Yeah. So nobody's jumping in and doing reiki and me or moving things. It's, I get to choose, I get to, you know, maybe if somebody's really struggling, I'll say, would you like some support? But you are reminded over and over again that you are, you are the, the, the, the decider. Yeah. You're Well. 'cause ultimately you are the medicine and Right. Which is that, that's the name of my practice, isn't it? Which we, we are medicine. Yeah. And it's, you're the medicine, but it's, we do it together. Right. Just like that was my experience. I have my own medicine, I carry my own medicine. And I didn't uncover that and develop that without a whole ton of help. Which is also what's cool. This is what motivated your podcast. So yeah. Um, that's the same notion. Um, yeah, so, so there is this support there and um, and, and then within that, and it's just so important to, 'cause we suffer from traumas of commission and traumas of omission. Either way, we had a disruption of our sense of agency, um, our sense of kind of our sovereign and mo most people alive on the planet today, most of us would argue. And so, and just to, to expound on, you know, errors of, of commission and omission. Like, you either didn't get something that you need as an omission or, or commission is something, some, something was something you did. Yeah. Something happened to you, you, yeah. And they're not like discreet, let's say, but, but let's say somebody hit me that you were abused. That's a trauma of, of omission, A trauma of omission is. I was left alone when I needed support. Yeah. You know, I needed a hug. I needed something there where I was Yeah. Seven years old coming home from to, to an empty house. Right. Exactly. Exactly. That kind. 'cause I had working parents or whatever. Yeah. That, that kind of stuff. So that's, so, so this places my agency at the center of it, but not, I'm not left out to dry. I'm right there with you. Um, and so, um, and then the, what's cool is, like you said, the breath work moves us. It's very fast. Very fast. And my first time I was like, this is not gonna work. I read all about it. I was like, this is. This sounds cool, but how am I gonna lie down and breathe and listen to music and like something's actually gonna happen? Yeah. I was very skeptical. Yeah. Yeah. And you can probably guess like from a background of like, I was rooted in like, I'm an atheist and you know, f y'all right, right. In your stupid religion, your stupid spirituality. So like, I still have that, like, that's a little shadow of mine too. Like, I'm like, and healthy, like, we want to be skeptical. You don't want to, but I was like, no way. And I laid down and I just was, I was like, oh yeah, deeper, faster breathing. And like, I was off and running and, and the music was great too. So that like really evoked a lot for me. But I, I was, I didn't know what was going on in the room. I was so deep in my own process and my body needed to move and it kind of needed to shake maybe. And suddenly I, my felt, my arm went over my head and I, I didn't know why, but I just kind of went with it. And then I was crying and then I saw this house that I recognized, but I never had been to in my life. And I dunno, all this stuff happened in this f and I was like, okay, so something's going on here and I don't need, 'cause I thought, oh, okay, but you have to take something. You need LSD, you need lsd, or you need, um, mushroom, you know, psilocybin. Psilocybin. Yeah. So, um. So that's how it works and it's different for everybody and every time it's every Right, right. So you've been to some breathwork and, and yeah. And you know, each one is, is unique even where, you know, where things show up in my body is unique. Yeah. I mean, I think the first one I went to not, I didn't have much happen somatically. I didn't have a lot of realizations, but I was, I had an eye shade on and my eyes were closed, and I had an absolutely blinding light appear as if somebody turned on the stadium lights. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Inside my brain. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, oh, I guess the light is within. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Right, right. And, and, um, yeah, and you also, you probably had a physical response to, I didn't have much of that that time. The last one that I did with you was a huge physical response. It was like, there was nothing in the brain. It was my body just wanted to boogie and, and shake and twist and Yeah. Do yoga. And I don't even know what all it was doing now. I was just like, okay, okay. You just go. Yeah. Yeah. And I, it was about me, maybe 10 minutes of breathing to get, you know, to get to that state and things start shaking and moving, and then I'm doing sit up and then I don't know what all I was doing. It was nutty. Yeah. Yeah. And it is, as long as we stay physically like safe, we don't stand up and run around the room or whatever, right? Like it's an invitation to just whatever the body needs to do and, and how often do we give ourselves the room to just move the way we really need to move and let it be with whatever emotions are coming up, whatever. Yeah. Things are coming up that I can't put a name to and maybe that light, I may never really have a name, nor do I need one. But, but the direct experience of that is really meaningful and, and, and it's helping me, especially as somebody who's a Fanta, which means I don't see any visions when I close my eyes. Ah-huh. So I don't. You say a red fire hydrant. And I, I know what it looks like, but I don't see a picture of one. I I, that's a new word. A fanic. Yeah. And yeah. And so, and, and there are, I, I work with a therapist who's present to that. And so in, in her guidance, well, Renee the one that, the reason I started this whole podcast, and she always uses the terms, can, can, when we're doing journeying, can you sense, feel, or imagine? Yeah. Right, because I think because I, for a long time would get hung up on, you know, somebody would say, you know, visualize this. I, I I don't see any, I don't see anything. Mm-hmm. There's nothing there. Ah, okay. Well that's good. Maybe that's the first que 'cause I do in, I do a lot of trauma therapy and I, I also do MDR and integrate some of these things, and I ask people to imagine or visualize and never occurred to me to ask. Can you, can you? Yeah. I just, and I just thought it was how everybody mm-hmm. It worked for everybody and then I found some, I found the word somewhere or something like, oh. So a as it happens, it's something. Now there's a word for that, like a scientific word, but, um, I speak to. The range of experiences that people can have. So there's a, you know, for me it's really important to, for, for the breathwork space to be an invitation for everyone. You know, wherever you're coming from, but also what kind of experience. So some people are gonna have a very outward experience, right? Some people will have a visual experience, some people will be dancing with angels. Some people are gonna be dancing with the devil, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, however, that whatever that wild archetypal energy arises, and some people are gonna be perfectly an outside, they're gonna look like nothing's happening. Maybe like they've. Falling asleep. Um, maybe they're, they're having an experience of a pervasive sense of calm. Yeah. Which is super powerful too, to get that in your body when, especially when you're not, you're not used to it. Yeah. The other, yeah. And the other, the other point I want to make that the reason that I like this modality, especially for people who don't have any experience with non-ordinary states of consciousness, right. Is that if unlike medicines, which I love, but unlike medicines, you can stop the experience by simply returning to normal breathing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would say like, not, not instantly, can't instantly flip back, but yeah. You, you wanna slow things down. You, you are in charge of that. You're in charge of it, as opposed to if you're an hour into a, you know, a mushroom trip and it starts going sideways, you Yeah. You, you know, yeah. There's a certain amount of, we're, we're in this until we come through the other side. Right, right. So it's, it's really, it's really a lovely on-ramp. And can be completely transformational in its own right. Yeah. Right. And, uh, that's right. So it is, um, I can wade in. Um, so that, so the way I en encourage people is I say, yeah, kind of lean in, in the beginning and really get into it. You know, if there's discomfort, you know, work through that. But also if it's just too intense, you can back off. Likewise, if you find some plateaus where you don't need to continue doing this, which is yeah, basically the pace of the breathing. Um. You can, you can enjoy that plateau or explore in there and then dip back in. Maybe the break is a long break. Maybe I've heard people say, oh, I thought I was done, but then the mu something in the music kind of engaged me and I went back in again. Um, so it's, the variety is so big. And, and also like one of the, one of the things that can happen for people, let's say if I'm been really jammed up and stuck, I'm, I'm struggling with anger or rage issues, I might just be pissed off. Yeah. For two hours. And, and there are people and I, you know, I've been there myself, who that's what they need to work through and that's as good a work. There's no better than like, oh, well that person like went on a. You know, was out in the Savannah and they were like a, you know, a hawk or the, you know, um, and that's marvelous, you know? Right. Or they have this spirit, these spiritual visions and whatnot. That's wonderful. Um, but it's not better, you know, you didn't have a, a more spiritual experience or a more healing experience because you saw things and Yeah. There's no, there's, yeah, there's no hierarchy of experience. Yeah. There, there's no high, it, it's, that's a good way to put, it's, it's, it's whatever you need. You're getting what you need in the moment E Exactly. And, um, yeah. And so those experiences are really important. And, and I think that just for people who just need to be right where they're at or they're, you know, it can also be uncomfortable doing it in a group setting. Yeah. And so, um. You know, everybody's welcome. Um, and, uh, all experiences are are welcome. There's also a little, um, there's, it's about two hours each session, and then there's a little artwork piece at the end that's done in a separate room, and it kind of gives you a chance to just whatever comes out, um, after the breathing, um, yeah, to draw, to draw it with colored pencils, markers, whatever. You got all kinds of stuff there. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And, and then we, we, the whole day, it runs like about nine to six, uh, pm Yeah. Roughly about eight, nine hours. Yeah. And, uh, and then we, we circle up at the end and share a little bit, um, and then we intentionally release the, the container. The container, yeah. And, and I mean, I'm, you know, I've got ceremony in my blood somehow. I don't know where it came from, but I, I mean, I love that aspect of it, that, that. That there's mm-hmm. Ceremony that there's community mm-hmm. And that, that you share. I mean, I remember going back to before I started doing this work and that, that that idea terrified me. And so for, you know, anybody who might be listening, um, that might be put off by that, that concept of you're in this group of strangers and you're right. You know, you're sharing these things. It's a, it's a very healing, uh, way of being in, in community with people with similar intention Yeah. To work through whatever they're stuck y Yeah, absolutely. And, and there's a lot of, um, group formats that, and. Maybe they, they have the potential to be unsafe, you know, whether they're meant to be a healing, um, experience or, um, what have you. Um, so for me there's a, a lot of emphasis on safety. Um, I meet with people before the workshop, um, over Zoom, so I have a conversation and kind of build in some familiarity, right? And, and address those concerns. Um, so that's always, yeah, it's a very, you create a very safe container. I mean, I've been in ones that, thank you, I've been in ones that aren't, and then the system knows. So the other piece of that is if you do find yourself in some container with a group of people and you don't feel safe, it, it's okay. Like, don't you? And you know, yeah. You, you don't, you don't need to. Your system will know. Yeah. Trust it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. And that the, the proof is in like, like you trust you, if this is the right thing for you. Um, if I meet with somebody, um, and they're not sure, or that like, you know, kind of protective part of themselves as really online, there's no pressure to do that. Some people will reach out or they'll even, I'll chat with them on the Zoom and they'll wait like a year to come to workshop and they'll, you know, had somebody write to me, they said, I've been, I've been lurking for two years. For two years, and I finally decided to do this. Yeah. It's kinda like me with the mankind building, right. You know? Yeah. Seven years of driving by the thing every day, you know? And we're ready when we're ready. Ready. When we're ready. Um, yeah. Yeah. But yeah, though it's, and I, I love that. And that's also because that, you know, you can. Probably guess hearing that what I needed was a safe place to, to kind of fall apart and come back together. That I finally found through mankind, through mankind project, and then in other, some other spaces after that. And so I, that's the kind of world I wanna live in, is where people can have those kinds of spaces and those experiences and that kind of support. So, you know, it's, it's as important to me as it is to, you know, the people in the room. Yeah. Like you said, you have somebody who might scream for an hour, it might pound a pillow. Right. You might have another person who's just completely quiet and merging with the universe. Right, right. And everything in between and, and what I've, that's right. And so there's, and there it's challenging too. There's, there's something that I'm challenged by in a way that, that I like, um, in a group setting. And sometimes I just know, yeah. I'm not doing groups at this point in my life. Okay. I want individual attention. I want individual support. Mm-hmm. So I, I have as a, as a receiver of their, of your own work. Yeah. Doing your own work for yourself, for myself. And some people are just flat out like, I'm not doing this in a group. And so I have started doing which, yeah. Which is a great segue into what you've incorporated into your, what was a, a, a traditional therapy practice. Well, so even I would say like column A is the, the group breath work workshops. Column B are like, adjacent to that is individual breath work. So some people I work with, it's just individual work. Um, and it's one-on-one. Um, or maybe there's somebody assisting me, like two people for one person. Um, and um, and then there's psychotherapy, which is. Like very much not like, I don't wanna say it's not traditional, like I'm not completely off the map, but um, but it is a lot of people come to me through breath work, um, or people come looking to do trauma therapy and um, and then learn about breath work and then start doing both. Okay. Um, so I really do try to integrate. To integrate, yeah. Integrate the two. And does it look like breath work every week that they come to a session? Or are you doing breath work and then there's a different No. So, and it, that's a request often and I wish I. I, I haven't yet figured out a short form, uh, version of what I do. It's a deep dive, uh, and we need time to kind of get ready, drop in, do some breath work, do some artwork come out, teeny bit of processing, decompress the shortest I've been able to squeeze that into without, and, you know, once you get into a breath work, trying to get out in 30 minutes is just, oh yeah. It's, it's not, it's not really safe. And it's also just like people are like, yeah, I'm just starting. Right, right. You know, you can go through two hours of, of doing holotropic breath work or, um. By the way, that's trademarked. And I don't say I'm a holotropic breath work practitioner. Right. We should circle back to that. Yeah. Yeah. But um, but that's where it comes from, right? Um, neo shamonic breath work is your Yeah, that's, that's what my teacher, and now there, there's actually gonna be a third iteration coming too. Um, but, um, that's TBD. Okay. Um, but anyway, um, but yeah, it's not a, it's not a 50 minute session. It's not, it's not. And there are, there's Wim Hof, there's other kinds of breath work where you can kind of get in and get out. I, I don't know that you got as deep maybe as, as you wanted to, or you could with a longer session. So the shortest that I've been able to do it is like. Probably the full beginning to end is like three hours. Sure, sure. If we're really focused and, but more like four more, like a half a day. Yeah. I would say three, three and a half. If people are doing really complex work, like working through a lot of layers of trauma and attachment stuff and what have you. Um, yeah. I mean it could, it could be four and a half hours. Yeah. Could be five hours, um, to really get in there and, and do it. So for people who are coming to me and using breath work and EMDR and other, I do somatic stuff and, and relational kind of psychodynamically informed talk therapy. Um. The breath work is like the thing they might do once a month. So I, I hold workshops every month. Right. And they'll come to the workshop and then we'll do the other parts when we, um, meet one or, or they might come to you for a, for a half day breath work session once a month. Exactly. Right. Or we might, or once a quarter or whatever. Mm-hmm. Exactly. Yeah. Just kind of whatever. Yeah. Feels like I would tailor it. Yeah. It's funny 'cause when you said the layers, it brought me back to the, um, I, I, I, as after I started doing this work, whenever, that was 15 years ago, and I gave, I got a new appreciation from the movie Shrek when he talks about, it's, it's layers, like an onion 'cause mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because it's like mm-hmm. Because I, I was of the, of the western model of like, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna get there. Like, I'm gonna, you know? Yeah. When I'm fixed, when I'm, yeah. Yeah. And, and it doesn't stop. Yeah. No, that's, that's it. That's like, it's just, there's always more, once you accept that you're It's a much easier Yeah, just except that there's not an end. I, you know, and I, I wish that for people, like I have people I can think of right now. Who I'm either working with or who I have worked with, and they want so badly to, well, I just wanna like, blow this thing out. It's like they've got like, you know, a clog in the drain and they just want to knock it out. Yeah. And get back on with life. And it's usually because I can say, well, I'm, I have, you know, some kind of like, I have a, a, a, a discreet physical problem like sleep or breathing or something. Physical pain, a pain in their body. Well, I know then that there's this block and I can locate it in this blah, blah, blah part of my body or life and I just wanna blow it out. And that, and the reality is, and that there's, it's not that you can't, some, sometimes, sometimes it's not. Never. But that is, that's the, that's the, uh, allopathic model. That's the, um, you go in, you find the pathology. And you like blast it with lasers. Yeah. You give it a pill or radiation, lasers, knife, whatever. You, you know, you Yeah. You just excise it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which sometimes that's great. Like, I don't want, if I break my leg, I want somebody who's like, yeah, we're gonna just put that back together and like, you know, stitch you up and Yeah. I'm, I'm cool, you know, I've got a, a, a tumor. Uh, thanks for knowing how to take that out. How to take it out. Yeah. But, um, I mean, there could, there, there would be deep mystical arguments to be made that you could get the tumor out energetically. Well, yeah. Right. I mean, but who's, you know? Yeah. Or even just like, um, understanding like, you know, now we, in the, the so-called west are, are coming around to the interconnection between that like Yeah. It doesn't have to get too metaphysical. To recognize that the way I think, the way I feel, my sense of connection with something greater than myself can feed directly into the way my body changes. Yeah. A hundred percent my body heals. Yeah. Um, that, that was a arbitrary, we, we've discovered this a long time ago. The that body mind, body mind separation, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, but yeah. Um, uh, yeah, I do, I wish I could offer that to people. I wish I could give them that, like, oh yeah, we're gonna get in and just like blast that sucker out of there. Yeah. That thing that happened when you were five years old and got bullied on the playground and it's sitting in your stomach and. You're just gonna breathe into that for 45 minutes. Right. And it's gonna be gone. And, and what I see sitting with me, because, and I've been there before, this is not to infantalize anyone, right. But there's an, and I do a lot of inner child work with people. And I, and, and I got, I've received that myself. And so there's a little part of me that's just like, make it go away. Make it go away. Make it stop. Make it stop. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And so that part of us needs care and attention. That little one inside of me needs that care and attention, but also a grownup part saying, I know it hurts and we're gonna take care of it, and, you know, we're gonna help relieve some of the pain and comfort you. And, um, and I promise I'm here for you. I'm here. Right. Um, but it's going to, it also, we're gonna, I'm gonna be honest with you, and it's not gonna go away right away. Right away. Yeah. And you know, in my experience, and I, I'm still learning this and remembering this over and over again. What you resist persists. So like, I'm, I'm presently working to expel some parasites from my body. Mm-hmm. And the advice from Laura who's been on the show before, you know, and I'm like, I just want them the fuck outta my body. Mm-hmm. You know, and she's like, whoa, maybe, you know, maybe love them. Mm-hmm. Right. Maybe, maybe, maybe. Stop resisting so hard. And again, I've been, this has been a long road. And, and that was my early, I, I had pain six or seven years. It was, it was during COVID and, and I, I screamed so hard. I broke a blood vessel under my eye. Ooh. Yeah. You know, 'cause I was just so angry at this fucking thing in my body. Um, but as I've sort of eased off the gas and, and, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And not resisted it so much, which meditation is, is a great teacher for that. 'cause you can watch the stuff arise and. You can watch the Yeah. The solidity show up and disappear and, you know. Yeah. Right. And, and then how do I, like, how do I create the conditions where something can be released? Right. Um, and also I'm gonna show up and do my part, but I'm not the only discreet, isolated thing that's acting on you. You as the whatever you, as the therapist you mean, or you or me, me as a person. If I've got, you know, and what other help is gonna show up in terms of other people, in terms of, you know, whatever is unseen. This, the great mysteries and gifts of this, of this wild, magical universe that we inhabit. Um, you know, yeah. I mean, MiiR, you know, miracles do happen. Right. Right. If you've ever, I don't know if you've read the, um, Anita Mujani book, but Dying to Be Me? No. She had, uh, stage four lymphoma. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And she was, she was covered with lesions and all kinds of things, and she was terrible. I mean, she was, she was gonna, you know, it was gonna take her and she went into a coma. Mm-hmm. It was just over in Singapore, I think. And she went into a coma and they rushed her to the hospital and end during it. She left her body and she watched the whole thing. She watched the whole thing happen and then began to cross over. Mm-hmm. And was shown the love that she really is, that we all really are. Mm-hmm. And came back into her body and within four days everything had remitted wild. Yeah. And these, these things happen. They happen more and more. These things happen. Yeah. And. Yeah. And I mean, even like the doctors documented, like the, the cancer went away, right? And so the conventional like boxes that Western medicine gets trapped inside of, you know, can just acknowledge these as these, it just goes into the category of these unexplained right anomaly. Um, it, it makes me think of. So I, I, I also been hugely influenced by thi nah, han. Mm-hmm. Uh, Vietnamese and Buddhist monk and, um, who passed not too long ago, um, on so many levels. Um, he's really got these elegant ways of talking about the inner child and caring for ourselves. Um, but, and, and breathing. Right? Well, of course. I mean, he's, you know, he's all like, I am breathing in and I'm, I'm breathing out. Breath out. Yeah. Yeah. I breathe in. I am, I have arrived. I breathe out. I am, I am home. Yeah. Um, and, um, I always experienced him as, um, you know, I mean, everything about Buddhism, to me, it's, it is about the here and now. And so there's something very, like practical and concrete. It's like I'm breathing in my body. That's the tool. Mm-hmm. This moment, I don't have to go looking for this location right. Where I am. I don't have to go looking for, so I always, you know, and, and so there were these. His musings as in the poetic sense where he would say like, the kingdom of God is in the here and now. Mm-hmm. Um, which a lot of Buddhists don't talk about God. Um Right. But, um, so the reason I bring that up is because I, I remember him talking about this, uh, a nun who had cancer and, and he told a story about how she cured her cancer through, uh, through her practice. Mm-hmm. Um, and through her mindfulness practice. Mm-hmm. And, and it's just so, and he just, but he said it as matter of factly as he talked about anything else. And I'm just like, well, wait a minute. So, you know, of course it's not out front that well, you know, miracles expect miracles. Right. But it just very matter of fact, yeah. She had cancer and it was considered untreatable and she used her mindfulness practice and. Didn't take, I, I don't forget the exact details, but like, didn't go through all the medications, the chemo and the radiation. Yeah. And, and she, she healed from that, or, you know, or she didn't take that traditional. Route, so, yeah. Yeah. And it's not, it's not as if there's a guarantee that miracles will happen, but if you take the mindset that miracles can't happen, they're a whole lot less likely to Yeah, yeah. Right, exactly. Right. Like miracles happen. Exactly. Let's, let's, let's get one's. Yeah. And let's have one. And even like, yeah. Just, I'm available. I'm open to Mar a miracle. Right. Like, woo. Yeah. I mean, just, you know, what, what can happen in that space? The Grateful Dead song. Right. What is the Grateful Dead song? I Need a Miracle. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I also know All I Need is a Miracle. Oh, there's that one. Yeah, yeah. Right. For Is that eighties? Oh, I need you, miss you. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. No, they have, yeah. Uh, I need a miracle every day. Yeah. There's, there's a dead song, so, yeah. Yeah. And they, the, the Deadheads, when they're going around, they don't have tickets, and they're going around the concerts, walking around. I need a miracle. I need a miracle. Oh yeah. We're looking for tickets. I need a miracle. And in inevitably, somebody's got a ticket for them. I, I, um, there was, I have a lot of people who connect with the Grateful Dead and, and, and friends and sort of adjacent for me. Yeah. I was So, uh, like were you in the like rave E-D-M-I-I-I was, yeah. I was a house. Head House. Yeah. And Techno Head and Drummond Bass I love, you know, and if it was a band, it was like, um, you know, the Cure The Smiths Okay, yeah. Yeah. That was a new Wave guy or whatever. But, uh, but the, that, that energy, that big spirit around the Grateful Dead was such a, I mean, it was, it was, you know, undeniable. And there was some overlap too. We, we hung out there was Sure. The, the hippie element came into our, well, LSDs a great leveler. Right. And, and vice versa. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but, um. Yeah. Um, yeah, I don't know. Uh, that's, there's so much more to say, but, uh, what, what else? Uh, what else is, yeah, so we got to the miracle part. We got to the miracle part. That's pretty awesome. I gotta stop rubbing the couch here by the weird noises on mic. It's alright. Is that like, it It's very, it's very soft. It's my sensory, it meets my sensory needs. Um, yeah, I think the meditation is a great point. I've, I have gone deep in meditation and fought it at the same time. I, I sat a 10 day APA in a retreat back in 2016. Mm-hmm. Which was a great preparatory thing for a lot of the psychedelic work that I did. Um, and, and then have had an on again, off again relationship, but have, just recently, just in the last week, I, I, I spoke with Aias husband, AIAS, been on the podcast and he's actually a meditation teacher. And I've been drawn to, um. Ramana Maharshi's work, uh, who ramdas often, often talks about. Mm-hmm. And, um, it was actually sort of, you know, so I, I just, I put a plug in for meditation, um, you know, to, to anybody who may be listening. I, when I, when I got started and I wanted to meditate, I remember it being excruciating to sit for five minutes. Right. Like, I mean, just, and now I can sit for an hour. Mm-hmm. And, and the other day it, it felt like about 20 minutes, it was, it was magical. Mm-hmm. So I don't know what, you know, maybe speak to how, you know, the meditation and the breath work are, you know, complimentary. Yeah. That, I mean, modalities, there is, um, it not for everyone. Um, and, and there are people who aren't drawn to med, like formal meditation. Sitting meditation or, yeah. Or mindfulness meditation. But, um, you know, there's. A basic principle of not clinging, um, to something that's coming up in a breath work. Um, that's important. And, um, and it also, you know, the best like meditation instruction I've gotten around that is you just, you know, you might regard it like a cloud passing by, or name, name the, oh, okay. That's a, that's a, there goes a thought or there goes that thought, um, and return my attention to whatever the, the object is. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Just at a basic, um, level. And so, um, there is that, that same invitation, and I often talk about that in the breath work, which is, you know, if you find yourself, you know, you're not doing anything wrong when you catch yourself. Getting really focused on something or lost and, you know, I'm trying to remember what I have to, like, the groceries I have to buy after I leave here and Right, right, right. Dinner in, in your head, you're all in your head about some particular Exactly. Um, so it is an invitation back into, um, the, the unfolding process. Mm-hmm. Um, and if I don't know what, where to place my tension or my energy, just breathe. Just breathe. And so it's, it's meant to be activating, um, and ex and expressive, but it's the same focus point, which is my breath. Yeah. Um, and there's music going the same focus point right as meditation. 'cause ultimately mo most, most meditation traditions. Focus on the breath. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just, just not rapidly. Yeah. Normal breathing and, and the breathing is, is uh, right. It's this the centerpiece of, of, of the meditation. So, but it's also what I, there's so many things that make it, you know, accessible to, uh, a person who's not interested in meditation, for example, who can be like, oh yeah, well, like the music, you know, I can groove to the music. And you know, people look at it on the outside and they say, what we're gonna be doing this for, for nine hours and I'm not gonna be looking at my phone and I'm gonna be with strangers. And, and the, and then they get to like, we're almost done. And they're like, how did that, that just like flew by. That was like the, a blink. Yeah. Uh, and the, and the breath work session itself can, can be similar to that. Um, so, um, 'cause there is a lot going on and I'm sort of pulled forward by this. Yeah. Mild experience. So it's not like meditation in that respect, but it Right. Is in that. I, I don't get to go, I can't like go hop online or, you know, go, yeah, go make distractions, make dinner or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's almost, it's almost, uh, you could, it could almost be viewed as like a, a, um, an accelerated meditation, right? If meditation is the act of, of watching the effects of the breath slowly and normally you now you're taking it and amplifying, using the breath as an amplifier. Yeah. And, and it's, but it's also like, it's fun. It's, you know, there's a, there's a lot of fun parts and it's evocative and like, and the body, what's amazing dynamic, what's always been amazing to me is the body just event. It takes over and start. You think you're gonna have to do the breathing right for the 90 minutes or two hours or however long, and you don't, it, it does it. It, it, it, it just kind of kicks in and does it? Yeah. Well that, so we're wired for that somehow. Somehow. And, um, and so we're, we're wired and like circling back long way around to this term, non-ordinary states. And getting drunk is a non-ordinary state. Um, doing breath work is a non-ordinary state. I mean, eating, eating a bag of m and ms is a, put you right. It is absolutely sugar. Sugar is, it's a drug. A huge, a huge one. Um, and so I like the term holotropic 'cause it's, you know, it's pretty neutral. Is it Latin, holo and tropic. And, um, um, and it just means, but holotropic, non-ordinary states means that I'm, I'm healing, I'm moving towards a state of, of integration or wholeness or, or, or healing. Um, and, um, um, lost my train of thought for a second. So. So, um. So that's, I don't know, just making that distinction. 'cause I, I thought of that we, we'd use that term, the term non-ordinary, subconscious, non, non-ordinary. Um, but Oh, yeah. And that we're wired for that. And that's, I mean, you know, that we, we are now like, kind of coming around to that from, even from a scientific perspective. Like we watch, um, you know, I, I, I'm an EMDR, uh, therapist, and so we, which for those that don't know is, is eye movement desensitization, reprocess reprocessing. Yeah. So it's, yeah. Yeah. And so the traditional way of doing it is you just moving the eyes back and forth while processing or focusing on a traumatic memory. And what they discovered is that the brain starts to light up differently and it with the eyes or that it, with, with the eye movement going on. Exactly. Yeah. Um, and so, and then I get to, he, I get to heal activating my brain in a non-intellectual way. Directly through my body. Um, and, and uh, that, you know, there's this old saying that is quite, I love it, is the neurons that fire together wire together, right? Ah, okay. That's like an EMDR saying. And um, and so the same principle, uh, I think it's just a universal principle, is that we, you know, why people come back and they keep coming to breath work and something's moving and something's happening and I can't tell you exactly what the breath work's doing versus my therapy versus my yoga practice, whatever. Um, but it's doing something. It works something. And all I have to do is like, show up here and just be with people and oh, this kind of feels safe, this is cool, and I'm just gonna breathe and listen to this wild music and move my body and, and something comes together and something moves and something some old grief gets, I get to. You know, move that or whatever. Yeah. But we're wired for that. And, and we're wired not only for non-ordinary states, but we're wired for, for healing states. For healing states. Yeah. We're, we're built for that. It's usually, it, it, it usually involves get getting out of the way Right. Of it. And, and, and, which is what ha what tends to happen when you go into non-ordinary states of consciousness with an intention to heal is like there's an inner intelligence. It's the same, it's the same intelligence that puts a cut back together and stitch it, you know? Yeah, exactly. And, and, and you're like, where was the cut? There's no Right, right. You know, but it's these psychic cuts, these emotional cuts, these energetic cuts, whatever these, these blockages. E Exactly. And so like, right. So here I can see my body heal. I break a bone and put it back together. And there it is. And my, my arm, my leg works again. Yeah. And then we get stuck in these little belief systems that well, yeah, I can heal there, I can heal here, but I can't heal physically. I can heal physically. That whole childhood wound of mine. Yeah. Well, well the things we told you, you can't. Right. The thing that's got me resenting my dad, my mom, my brother, whatever. Right. And, and we come by those beliefs, honestly. Absolutely. Um, and um, but they're beliefs. They're not facts. They're not these fixed. Yeah. Which I also like to call programming. I mean, it's a Yeah. Absolute. You, you, you were programmed by whatever. Yeah. Whatever your environment Yeah. What that was going on. I, I love the relief on a, on a person's face when I, I say, okay, so what's the belief attached to that experience? And they name it. And I say, yeah, that's like bad software. That's like some malware that you got installed. And, um, we're gonna disentangle that from your system. Yeah. And I love that you, you know, you bring the EII had forgotten about the E MDR RI mean, I, I, I experienced that years ago. It wasn't the key that opened my lock. Sure. But I know, I know many people, many people that have had profound positive experiences Yeah. With EMDR. Yeah. It's wonderful. I mean, and the, and the relationship with the therapist matters and, and all. Yeah. Yeah. If it's a good fit for you. Right. Um, and, and likewise, breath work's not for everyone. EMDR is not for everyone. Yeah. Uh, coming to see me as a therapist is not for everyone. But, um, um, but yeah, I mean, kind of circling that theme back to breath work in particular is that it it is a place for people who want to explore in going to these deep places in a way that like, you know, you pointed out I can slow things down. I have more agency in this process than some other thing I might have tried. Right. Um, it's, it, it is a place that people feel like I can go to some people. Let's say they want to, um, work with, with, with a plant, uh, medicine like ayahuasca, for example. Yeah. Um, but I can't because I, I have, uh, maybe I'm just afraid or maybe I'm on some meds that maybe SSRIs are contraindicated. Yeah. And it's not safe for me to do that. Or maybe that's a goal for me when I can come off of those meds or whatever. But I can do breath work. Um, you know, all other basic, there are some rule outs for breath work. That where a person might not be safe. Yeah. What and what are those for those, but, um, well, I'll just say that, that it is a safe place for people who, you know, that was, that was the first point. It's a safe place for people who want to explore, but maybe are, feel prohibited in some way from doing, um, some other methods. But yeah. So some rule outs are, now this is interesting. So if you go online and you look out, look for, um, like what are counter indications for breath work, for holotropic breath work? Um, tm, um, sorry. Trademark. Yeah. Um, but, um. It, they might say like, there, there, there's these laundry lists that it's like, well, okay, if you have any condition that might need medication. I mean, like the, oh, it's like, it's, it's super conservative. So prohibitive. Yeah. And it's, it's risk aversion and I understand that. I also think that a lot of people are not screening people like they might. Um, you might fill out a form and then just show up at a workshop. Um, so I'm talking to a person. I have, I, I do have a, a, a extensive background. One thing we didn't talk about, but like, I've worked with, with psychotic people I worked in Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. With homeless folks for, for, for years at the va and Yeah. Yeah. I was a, a, a, a VA social worker. Um, I, I've been a community based social worker for years. So you've seen it as bad as it gets y Yeah, yeah. I've been in really, you know, uh, also just in, whether it's the community or what the person's going through, what have you. Yeah. So I have a, an ability to, um, but I need to talk to a person, you know, I, I'm not gonna just take what they write on paper. Um, but if a person, now, if a person has some history, that's not to me, a rule out that they shouldn't do breath work. If somebody is, if I, I. Every once in a blue moon, um, somebody I talk to on a zoom is in a really rough state. Mm-hmm. And I say, you know, I might notice like, yeah, this seems like a manic episode. Okay. It's probably not a good time for you to join. Or somebody, um, had recent heart surgery or, um. You know, even, um, there's differences of opinion. Um, Stan Groff says, um, and when you have all these other facilitators in the room, someone with epilepsy could work through whatever might be going on for them. For me, I'm the, the solo. You're the one facilitator. Yeah. I, if somebody has epilepsy, I can't take that risk to manage a seizure. And that's with, with 19 other people potentially in the room. Yeah. And that's just because I don't have the, the, the resources for that. Um, so yeah, so there's a lot of, and I, we go over those in that, that zoom call, so it's, yeah. It's not a hundred percent of the people out there that are, that are candidates for it, but, but a wide, it's probably a, it's safe to say it's a, a wider variety than they are candidates for psilocybin or ayahuasca or Oh, yeah, sure. Absolutely. With the contraindications for those. Yeah. Um, yeah. But it's, uh, well it's also a very self-selecting group that winds up, um, seeking, uh, these long form breathworks and, um, uh, so I, I, I mean, in 10 years I've screened out, you know, like half a dozen people. Wow, okay. 10 people maybe something like that. Um. And I, I will say just I, I know there are breath works, you know, even in Chicago now, it's starting to, to take off a little bit, but where they're really not screening and they'll have like 300 people in a room. Oh wow. 150 people in a room and they just let it rip and it's like three hours. You're in and out and there's no sitters. Um, there's a handful of facilitators and. Um, that to me is, is really unsafe. Mm-hmm. Um, so I, I, there's a lot of care around that. And there's also, for me, keeping it tight, keeping it small, um, and being careful about talking to people when they come in is that yes, there is a place you can, you can be feeling kind of rickety. You can be going through some grief, you can be struggling with some deep depression, um, right. And this is a good place for you. You'll, you'll be held, you'll, you'll be well held Yeah. In, in this container. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I also do, um, I offer people follow up after that too, and Right. So sometimes people just as part of the workshop, they want to check in and, and occasionally people, uh, want to begin therapy too. Okay. Or they'll, they'll come to a few workshops and, and do that too. So I, I do really try to kind of provide a, a, you know, support in the workshop and, and, and, and beyond outside. Yeah. And yeah. And you do very, very, a great job of that. So it's, so the, the. The, the workshops are monthly, typically. The third Saturday is what you're they're, they're the, well, they're usually the last Saturday, the last Saturday the month. Okay. But, um, in November and December, I like to, 'cause everybody's like getting amped up about, um, Thanksgiving. Yeah. And seeing families. So I always try to do one right before Okay. Thanksgiving so people can kind of move some of that, that anxiety. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then likewise before Christmas, uh, can be a nice one. Those can be sometimes, you know, there's not many people at those workshops, holidays, like I, so that's like, what, November 22nd and then December 20th, I think are the, are the workshops are the Saturdays instead of the last, but yeah, typically it's the last Saturday. Yeah. And I'll put the, the info will be in the, you know, the text below, but it's, we, we are, we are Madison Dot. Dot net.net. We are medicine.net is where you can find y. Yeah, so it's funny, I, I'm like, um, the Google, uh, AI bot, what have you. Um, if you type in breathwork Chicago, I, I'll pop up there. You okay. It's my old website, so I've maintained that. And there's like a little, you can hop to the new website. The new one's got, um, it's got, it talks about the events, the, the breath work and also the therapy. The therapy. So if you wanna go, it's a new comprehensive site. Yeah. Um, my practices as, as a solo practices is still in the first year now too. So that's the new location. That's the new look. Yeah. And the, and the, and you're, you're, you're typically holding them always at the same Vernon Hills or Northbrook Northbrook location. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I do them in, in Northbrook, and I don't publish the. Um, the address of place, some pit. So I'm just putting that out there in case people are wondering. Um, because I want to do the, our little registration conversation zoom thing. Yeah. So nobody just shows up before. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But it's, it's easy to get to out. Northbrooks a lovely little private place and um, yeah, it's great. Super, super ama, amazing, uh, well appointed place and people come from all over him. You have people driving up from, from down south and yeah, it's great. Yeah, it's like a little mid Midwest, uh, hub for breath work. A little breath hub. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. It's beautiful. Well, thanks for coming over, Ben. I appreciate it. Yeah, thank you Matt. This has a bit of blast. Yeah, I really enjoyed it. Yeah, I love it. I love, love to get this information out there. So more people just know that there are a lot of different ways to. Hold a trope to, to move to wholeness. You just making a verb. I'm just making up words over here. Yeah. But we were talking about hip hop before, so I thought, you know, I'd just kind of throw that down. Oh yeah, that's, that's nice. You gotta put it in your next battle wrap. Yeah, right. Oh, I'm quite a battle wrapper, boy. Oh, thanks Ben. And thanks everybody for listening. Uh, peace out. Yeah, peace.