Latest / The You Project / #2231 The Science of Guilt - Dr. Jennifer Reid

Transcript

#2231 The Science of Guilt - Dr. Jennifer Reid · The You Project

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: G'day team, it's Harps and it's Dr. Jennifer Reid. I'm excited. Dr.
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Jen is a board certified psychiatrist, author and clinical assistant
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: professor of psychiatry at the University of Pennsylvania. How's my voice, everybody?
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Sorry about that. It's just what I've got to work
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: with today. Columbia educated, smarty pants and UCLA trained. Her
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: work focuses particularly on women's mental health, mood disorders, and
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: the psychology of guilt, which we're going to dive into today.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: She's got a brand new book. That's right. Brand new book.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: Let's just blatantly promote that. Guilt-free, reclaiming your life from
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: unreasonable expectations. Hi, Prof. Associate Prof. How are you?
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: I'm great. I love that intro and I like the
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: blatant sharing of the book title. Thank you so much
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: for having me.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, we do that. That's what we do. I mean,
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: you've got to get something, don't you? We don't pay you. So,
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: I mean, geez, you might as well sell a few
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: books off the back of this. Let's hope. Where are you?
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: How are you? What time is it where you are?
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: Give our listeners some context of the lady who's on
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: the other side of the conversation.
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: For sure. So, I'm just outside of Philadelphia.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: I'm in my home office. I have alerted my children
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: not to play any drums or trumpet during this interview.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: So we'll see if they've heard me and it's about
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: 5 30 PM.
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: So 1730 here currently.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Perfect. Army time. When you were growing up, you're
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: a kid. Tell me how school was for you. Did
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: you think you were going to be a scientist? Did
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: you think you were going to win an Emmy for
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: acting or a, Golden Globe for, I don't know, music
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: or join the space program? What did you think you
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: were going to do or maybe aspire to do when
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: you were a little kid?
• 1:47
  Speaker 3: Well, I think it's so important what your sort of
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: models are.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: And my father was a physician. My mother's father was
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: a physician. My sister went to medical school. So I
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: think it just felt like This is the path that
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: one takes if you work hard and if you enjoy school.
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: I did. I was a total nerd. Loved it. Like
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: first day of school, the best. Last day of school,
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: I was pretty sad.
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I loved it. My boys are not the same.
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: They're like, mom, summer is the best. But I don't know.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: I loved being in school. Good thing because I was
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: in it forever. But yeah, I really enjoyed sort of
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: learning new things.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: And when you finished what we call year 12 here,
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: What do you call that over there? Just high school?
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: What do you?
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah, high school, graduate from high school.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so you finished that. What did you step into
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: at college? We call it university, but college, what did
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: you step into?
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: You know, just an exploration of the fun of being
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: in a huge college campus. I came from a very
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: small town, so I love that I just sort of
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: blended with everyone and studied science. I majored in zoology,
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: which was sort of the general biology you know, major
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: of the time and did a lot of neuroscience, that
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: kind of work. And then also just did some activism,
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: tried to get involved on campus and like women's rights
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: and some animal rights work. So, yeah, it was a fun,
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: fun time. You know, university is a great time.
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: How much do you think, like you were talking about,
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: your dad was a doctor, a physician, your sister went
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: into medicine, one of your grandparents was a doctor as well.
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: So you were in this environment where people obviously not
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: necessarily encouraged you in a certain way, but you were
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: around that. That was the echo chamber of sorts. That
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: was what you were exposed to. And I wonder if
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: you were raised in a totally different environment and dad
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: was a truck driver and mum was an exotic dancer
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: and your sister went into space travel, I wonder who
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: you would have become and how much do you think
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: I actually wrote a thing yesterday for my Instagram. It's basically,
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: you know, this, did you choose your beliefs or did
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: somebody else program you? You know, it's just trying to
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: have this awareness between what are my beliefs? Why do
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: I think the way I do metacognition? Why do I
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: see the world the way I do? Why do I
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: tell myself this story, this subjective story about this objective thing?
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: And just wondering how much the way that we think
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: and see the world is shaped and informed, if not
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: determined by the people we grow up around.
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: Well, I think it does show us what's possible.
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: I mean, if my mother had been an exotic dancer,
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: I mean, one can only guess what I would have
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: been able to go off and do. I think that,
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: you know, My mother, when she was growing up, really
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: didn't have access to even athletics at her school. She
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: was a tomboy and really athletic and didn't have the
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: idea that she could go to medical school. That was
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: very unusual for women in her time. And so I
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: think we're obviously so influenced by where we grow up
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: and what are the opportunities even available? What do we
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: have for models? Having an older sister go ahead of
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: me was a wonderful model to say, well, if she
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: can do it, you know, I was the youngest of three.
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: And so seeing my older sister do it, but my
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: brother chose to teach and he teaches history and geography.
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: That's really what gets him so excited about showing up
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: every day for work. So same environment, but we both,
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: I think we all sort of grew up with our
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: own interests. And I just thought science was really fascinating.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: I mean, I was always a reader. So I think
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: had my, you know, I had my father perhaps because
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: that was the time. worked as a professor, worked as
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: a teacher, been a writer himself.
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: Things like that.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: Maybe that would have influenced me. But in my model,
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: like if you were smart enough and like you wanted
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: to help people, that was just, that was the path
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: that existed. I didn't even really think about what else
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: could be.
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: So when did the curtain come back and you went,
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: I think I want to go into human behavior and
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: try and understand the mind and the brain and you know,
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: all the things around that and that took you into
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: psychology and psychiatry. When did that kind of become a
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: thing for you?
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: I really wrestled with figuring that out. I mean, I
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: did really enjoy neuroscience in college. And then I worked
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: for a bit as a bartender. So I learned a
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: lot about human behavior, for sure.
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: That was in Scotland. And then came back and went
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: to medical school.
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: And I think I thought, okay, there's, there's a way
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: to be a doctor. And that's the way my, my
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: father was sort of general practitioner. And I thought, you know,
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: I'll just go into general internal medicine and I'll really
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: help women. I'll help women somehow, you know, and even
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: started my residency, which is after the four years of
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: medical school, you match into a residency. I started it
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: internal medicine and it just was like, it realized now,
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'm an experiential learner.
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: I have to live it to really know. Is this,
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: is this right for me?
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: And I, on the internal medicine unit, you know, like
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: on the, in the ICUs and on the wards, I
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: was like, this is just not as interesting as some
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: of the other areas. I was really understanding the person's story.
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: And I think that aligns with always, you know, being
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: a reader my whole life, really wanting to know the
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: true story, not just like, what does the lab show
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: and what is our algorithm for how we treat this?
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: It just wasn't a good fit. And so I switched
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: over at that point. So there I was probably mid twenties,
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: early to mid twenties, shifting over into psychiatry. And even
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: within that, I've just jumped around to all different kinds
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: of things like academic work and working for the county with,
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: you know, basically an unhoused population, doing private practice, teaching,
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: writing now podcast. I mean, I think that it's, the
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: brain is such a broad area and there's so many
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: wonderful roles that we can, can kind of hold in
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: helping people learn how to you know, match things.
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: So I just, I'm.
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: Endlessly sort of fascinated and it really works with my
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: restlessness that I can shift to something a little different
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: every few years.
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I like it. I, um, a
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: hundred years ago, I opened the first personal training studio
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: in Australia and then a few more. And so before
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: there was an industry or a qualification or, um, any
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: kind of insurance or, you know, the, I started working
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: in gyms when I was a kid, pretty much 18,
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: in 1982. Started PTing in 86, so 40 years ago.
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: It wasn't even a thing in Australia. Opened my first
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: center a few years later. Still was no qualification. There
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: was no course. There was no anything. But the shortish
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: version is I spent about 30 years working coaching people,
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: training people one-on-one, one-on-two, one-on-three, but a lot of one-on-one.
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: And I did. I did every year about 60 sessions
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: a week, so about 3,000 sessions a year. So I
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: don't know how many I did, but I definitely did
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: more than 50,000 one-on-ones or one-on-twos, right? And you get
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: to the point where you go, this isn't even about
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: their body. It's not about their muscles, their biceps, triceps,
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: their squat, their deadlift, calories in and out, all those things.
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: But this is really about them, not the body, but
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: the person in the body. So I had to do
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: a self-taught kind of almost crash course in trying to
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: understand people. And I didn't understand myself. So that was
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: a big assignment. But and recognizing the role of emotion
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: and psychology and sociology and choices and behaviors and outcomes
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: within the context of helping people create a positive result.
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: So whether it's with their body or their business or
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: their career or their habits. And I learned, I don't know,
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: 1,000 times more about the practical reality of helping people
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: create positive change and lasting change. And I love my PhD,
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: but you know, you're studying a drop of water in
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: an ocean of psychology, right? And people don't understand that.
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: They think, oh, so you'll be a doctor of psychology.
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: I go, yeah, but not really. It's like I'm a
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: doctor of meta perception, which most people don't even know
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: what it means. And so, yeah, that combination, I guess,
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: of academic and real world practical might be, well, it
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: is for me, it's different for different people, but it
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: might be your and my version of the ultimate education.
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: I agree.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: I mean, I came out of training thinking I knew
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: something and I realized every day how little I knew
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: and how much I learned just from those interactions, right?
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: As I'm sure you did or anybody that's encountering people
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: consistently and regularly and can be a trusted voice for them.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: And in your work, I imagine just as in mine,
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: we're working on motivation, we're working on identifying what our
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: true goals are versus what we think they should be, right?
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: I'm sure guilt came up all the time in your
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: clients who wanted to do it a certain way had
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: this discrepancy between the ideal and what they were actually
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: able to do or being so hard on themselves with guilt.
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: So Yeah.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: That's an incredible education. That many client sessions.
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: For that many years. I mean, you really learned all
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: about people.
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: Do you ever get this? Hey, Jennifer, I fell off
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: the wagon. Do you ever get that? Have you ever
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: had that with people? I go, oh, let's talk about that.
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: Where is the wagon? They're like, what? I go, the
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: wagon that you fell off. Where is it? They're like,
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: what do you mean? I go, well, explain to me
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: what you did. Oh, well, I, you know, I just
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: blew my diet for the entire weekend and I ate
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: everything that wasn't nailed down or whatever.
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: And I'm not, there's no, I'm not trying to assign
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: guilt or criticism, but rather just unpack that idea of,
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: I fell off the wagon. And I said, what did you,
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: and they tell me what they ate. And I go,
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: how did that food get into your mouth? And they're like, what?
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: I go, the food, how did it get in there?
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: I go, I So you put it in, right? Okay,
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: so that's a choice and that's a subsequent action and
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: there's going to be outcomes. I'm not trying to beat
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: you up. I'm trying to, like when we say I
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: fell off the wagon, it's almost like it's not my idea. Oh,
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: it's not my fault. It's the wagon's fault, right? This
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: challenge that people have, including me many times, to go, oh,
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: I actually created this bad outcome, you know, without that
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: being about blame or guilt or accusation, but just self-awareness.
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: It's like when I was a kid, I was morbidly obese.
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: I was 200 pounds when I was 14, right? It
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: was 100% my fault because I didn't do the exercise
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: and I ate all the food. And I didn't beat
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: myself up, but I realized that, well, I am the cause.
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: It doesn't matter how much I talk about genetics or
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: environment or context or other people or it still comes
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: down to what I do. Do you go that hard
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: with people or am I too tough?
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: You know, I find myself sitting over here feeling compassion
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: for that 14-year-old version of you, right? There were reasons,
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: and I don't know your story, obviously, but there are
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: reasons for seeking comfort or seeking some sort of fulfillment
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: in behaviors that aren't actually, in the end, what's best
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: for us. And I think that can be really difficult
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: because people might turn to food or unhealthy relationships or
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: drugs or alcohol or shopping, et cetera, et cetera, to
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: fill something, to try and heal hurt that's happening for them,
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: a missing piece of what they need. And so I
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: guess I don't quite look at it as it's their
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: fault per se. I think that yes, they, that we
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: make choices, but I really want to understand, okay, why
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: is that choice happening? Because so often people will say,
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: this is not the choice I want to make. I'm
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: trying so hard not to make it. And yet this
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: is happening. And so I think getting at rather than blaming,
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: getting at what are some of these underlying forces and
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: can we work to rewrite those stories that are leaving
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: you in a place where you're trying to take care
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: of yourself, right? What else can we offer you? What
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: other healthy or healthier mechanisms can we offer you to
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: work through your pain or isolation or whatever is creating
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: some of these choices?
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: Yes. Okay.
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: That makes sense, but don't make me cry. Could it
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: be as simple as I feel crap. I don't feel
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: good emotionally, mentally. And then I do this thing, which
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: gives me some dopamine and now I feel good. Oh yeah. That's,
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: and that's a, you know, obviously a temporary fix. Could
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: it be as simple as brain chemistry sometimes where we
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: feel rubbish and then we do something that makes us
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: feel good in the middle of the, the rubbish. And so,
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: and then we do that again, and then we do
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: that again. And we look up and at six months
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: of doing that again, and now we're really not in
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: a place we want to be.
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: Well, I think that can go in multiple ways, right?
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: I think that there's something we use called behavioral activation
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: and someone struggling with depression, which is how do we
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: sort of get you up and moving as you know, with,
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: with your work, how do we get you maybe to
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: do some light exercise, take a walk, get outside, And
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: do that consistently enough because you're able to. And that
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: itself can help start to bring you out of that place.
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: So in that case, it's a healthier behavior. Whereas, sure,
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: people can reach for things that might very quickly make
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: them feel a little bit more upbeat or better. Maybe
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: alcohol quickly makes us feel less anxious or helps us
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: fall asleep. The trouble is just the cost of it, right?
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: What does it do to us down the road? Even
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: as soon as middle of the night, if you're using
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: alcohol to fall asleep because you wake up as you
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: metabolize that you're feeling much more anxious so i think
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: we're always trying to self-soothe in some way but finding
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: options that actually are good for us can be more complicated.
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah yeah is there a place for um choosing
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: discomfort like like for me, I've started multiple businesses. I've
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: done things, lots of things that didn't work that objectively
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: you could call them a failure. I've had a few
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: businesses that did work and go great. I've written a
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: bunch of books. I've done thousands of corporate presentations, some terrible,
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: not too many terrible ones these days, but is it
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: okay to realize that the path to where I want
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: to get, which is healthier or more functional or might
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: not be fun. It might not be convenient or comfortable.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: And I'm okay with that. I feel like we're hardwired
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: for comfort and familiarity and certainty and predictability and anything
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: that isn't that we're like, I don't want that. Right.
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: I think there has to be a clear why for us.
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: We have to have a motivation that gets us there.
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: I mean, even just showing up for psychotherapy week after week.
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: That's not a picnic.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: It's not fun to go in and talk through things
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: that are really difficult or painful or hard to acknowledge.
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: It's work. And so, but people do show up. And
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: the question is.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: Why do they, why would they sort of submit to that?
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: Why would they submit to a really intense workout? Why
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: do I go to the gym and do a class
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: when I know it's going to burn that whole time?
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: And so I think, how do we force ourselves to
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: kind of think about future gains, which is like you said,
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: not where our brains naturally evolutionarily go.
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: We want immediate, right?
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: And so I think in this modern society, it's easier
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: to get that. It can be harder to really look
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: to the long term. So we have to give ourselves
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: maybe small rewards along the way, you know, to help
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: remind ourselves I'm doing this because it's good for me.
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: This is my why. This is how I continue to
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: move forward. And be careful we're not using things like
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: guilt and criticism to motivate because those don't last very long.
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: They're pretty weak motivators in the long term.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: I like that. All right. Speaking of guilt, guilt-free, reclaiming
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: your life from unreasonable expectations. Let's do a little bit
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: of a dive, not just into the book, but the topic.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: When I saw your book, I went, I have never
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: had a conversation ever on a podcast. And I've been
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: on lots of others. I reckon I've been on 4,000 episodes.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: We've never had a conversation about this. So I'm So
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: can you define guilt, whether or not that's from the
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: psych dictionary or whether or not that's just how you
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: explain it?
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: Guilt is this perception that you have done something wrong.
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: So whether it's I've hurt someone, I've omitted something I
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: should have done, I didn't do something I wanted to
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: do for myself. Basically, I've messed up. I've gotten this wrong.
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: And the reason it's different than shame is shame is
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: more like I am wrong. I am just a sort
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: of valueless human being. I'm not worthwhile. Whereas guilt is more, okay,
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: I've messed up. I've done something I wish I hadn't.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: Right. Are they intertwined, shame and guilt?
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: The interesting thing, I think the best way I can
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: kind of differentiate for people is that guilt pushes us
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: sort of toward like the most adaptive type of guilt
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: is when, okay, if I've hurt your feelings or upset you,
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: I notice it.
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: I care about you. And I say, I better fix this.
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: I'm going to repair.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: I'm going to maybe learn something, take something on. And
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: we move toward that problem. Whereas shame has sort of
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: the opposite effect. it causes us to pull away. Like
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: if we're truly ashamed, you know, like a dog that's
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: had an accident knows that they're in trouble. They're going
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: and hiding under a chair, right? There's this natural, I think,
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: instinct for us to pull away and hide because we
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: don't want anyone to know how kind of awful we
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: are in general.
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: I think when we have.
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: Constant guilt and we feel like everything we're doing is wrong,
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: that can then become shame, right? Because it then becomes
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: our entire definition. And so I think that's how they
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: can be interlinked. But the work on trying to shift
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: guilt is recognizing what is truly something you've done wrong.
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: Because so often people will say, I feel guilty all
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: the time, but I can't put my finger on what
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: I've actually done wrong.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like shame is tied into, I
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: don't know this, so just tell me I'm wrong. But
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: to me, it seems like shame is tied into who
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: we think we are, self-worth, identity, I'm not good enough.
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: I'm not this enough. I'm not smart enough. I'm not
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: pretty enough. I'm not likable enough. Like all that stuff,
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: it seems, and very obviously self-destructive. Am I in the
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: ballpark or what do you think?
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: I think so.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think that you might say, oh, I
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: can't believe I did this one thing. I feel so
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: guilty about it, but it doesn't change who I think
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: I am underneath, right? Just because I forgot to call
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: my sister on her birthday does not mean that I
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: am an entirely worthless human being.
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: I just forgot.
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: So I think that's thinking about how we speak to ourselves, though.
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: It's not uncommon for people I've worked with to say that. Oh,
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: I am such a piece of garbage. I'm the worst
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: sister ever, these kinds of things. Then we're getting into
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: the shame category.
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right. So here's a hypothetical. So we started 7.30
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: Melbourne time. and you were ready to go before me.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: So this definitely wasn't the case, this hypothetical. But let's
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: say you turn up at 7.40 and I've been on
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: since 7.28, waiting for our 7.30. What's the emotion you have?
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: Or what's the feeling? What's the awareness that you have
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: turning up 10 minutes late?
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: I think I would feel guilt because I had inconvenienced you.
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: I had kept you waiting and demonstrated that I wasn't
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: You know, respecting your time and your attention adequately. And frankly,
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: that that's an adaptive use of guilt because it tells
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: us we messed up.
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: If we didn't feel anything, if I showed up and
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: I was like, sorry, peace out. You know, I don't care.
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: That's not adaptive.
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: So the complete absence of guilt is actually pathological. But
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: what we're trying to avoid is guilt that's not adaptive.
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: Like if I just ended up saying everything I did
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: all day was bad or I.
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: Need to do things perfectly.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: Otherwise, you know, I need to have the perfect body.
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: I need to go to the gym the perfect number
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: of times every week. Otherwise, I've messed up or I've failed.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: That's where we can get into that kind of broad guilt.
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: So something guilt that's adaptive. can help us produce better outcomes.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: And it's actually can have a positive effect in the
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: whole kind of, um, you know, psychology behavior outcomes kind
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: of thing.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: And even like bring us closer in relationships, right? If
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: you're with your partner and you mess up and you just,
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: you don't say anything, you know, that's going to create
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: conflict and eventually, you know, pull people apart. So it
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: is important in our close relationships. to be able to
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: do this. And that's probably what's been most adaptive for
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: us for eons. It's just when now it just feels like,
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: you know, people are trying to meet these incredibly high
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: expectations of themselves and feeling like they're not getting anything right.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: And so that's where we can kind of look at
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: those different variables when I'm speaking with them to start
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: shifting that kind of, you know, maladaptive guilt, if you will.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: You say in, I'm sure you say it in your book,
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: but I read it somewhere else, that women are tend
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: to suffer– suffer is the wrong word– but deal with
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: guilt more than men on average. Did I get that right?
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: And if that is true, what do you think that's about?
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: I do think it's true.
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: Have I been able to find absolute data to support
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: this in a huge study?
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: No. Right.
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: But it's what I've seen every day for years in
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: my practice, in my group of friends, in my family,
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: that I think– and also that it's something that I
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: think women– are very comfortable talking to each other about that. It's,
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: you know, you admit you're guilty. That's kind of how
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: you connect. And I was chatting with my husband about
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: this and I'm like, do you have much guilt? And
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: he said, I don't, I don't think it comes out
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: as guilt for me. It comes out maybe as anger.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: Like if I feel like I've messed up, I'm like, oh,
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: there were circumstances. But I think for women, there is
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: data to suggest empathy is maybe a little bit more
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: readily available to us. We might feel what someone else
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: is feeling. and this sense of kind of responsibility for others. Now,
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: some of this is, you know, inherent within us, but
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: some of this is society suggesting that it's women's job to.
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: Care for everyone, right?
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: Whether it's our kids, our partners, our friends, our elderly parents,
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: it can even come out, you know, with our colleagues,
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: with our friends, with just other peers that, oh, it's
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: a woman's job to notice your emotions and try to
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: like fix them or protect you from them but unfortunately
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: that's an impossible task we can't actually change people's emotions
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: even a shrink like me I can't truly change people's
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: emotions you.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: Know shrink like you that could be the name of
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: the show thank you um that's funny is there a
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: chance doc that women like a guy and a girl
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: man and lady could be feeling the same thing but
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: they have different language for that emotional state. Like, is
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: it possible that you and I are feeling the same
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: thing and what you would call guilt, I would call
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: something else. So because I think with all of this
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: interior stuff, like all of the psychology and emotion, and
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: then trying to decode that for the world. I mean,
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: you know how, you know, psychology is an interesting science,
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: let's just say that because it's so much subjective kind
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: of assessments and stuff. But Is it maybe part of
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: it just that we label it differently?
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: I think absolutely.
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: I mean, men, of course, feel guilt and adaptive guilt,
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: but also, you know, guilt maybe as a father, as
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: a caregiver in their own lives, in their work, maybe
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: for different reasons, right? Their expectations may be a good
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: man would do X, right? Would be a breadwinner, would make,
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: I don't know, a million dollars or would whatever the
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: expectations are there. But I also think we have to
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: acknowledge that we're socialized by gender in what emotions we're
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: allowed to share without coming across as abnormal. Right. So like,
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: there's like the angry woman trope, right? That if a
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: woman's expressing anger, she's just an angry woman. She's getting,
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: she's getting carried away. And for men being able to
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: express things like maybe guilt, but other vulnerability, like a
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: need for, for love or attention or insecurity or, that
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: might not be as accepted in their social circles or
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: in their family dynamics. So I think we have to
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: acknowledge that these gender norms have sort of negative effects
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: on everyone because we are limiting the range of what
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: is an appropriate emotion.
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: But guess what? We all feel all of them. So
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: what do we do with that?
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I think also, you know, like the false consensus
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: effect talks to the fact that we think that other
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: people think like us. So I might give you what
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: I think is compassion and you receive it as judgment, right?
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: But it's not my intention at all. And it comes
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: back to that not very scientific but interesting book, The
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: Five Love Languages, right? Where I really, when I first
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: read that years ago, I don't know if you've read
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: it or you hate it, but it really explained a
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: lot to me about my dad who was very, hard
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: like he was hard and um you know but a
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: good man but he would do things for me but
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: he would never say you're amazing or he would never
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: say give me a hug or all that stuff but
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: nonetheless he loved me but as a young kid especially
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: it usually wasn't in the way that i wanted love
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: or how i've how i felt loved you know so
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: that that gap between what i think jennifer needs and
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: which is just my window that I'm looking through, right?
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: And then I give you what I think you need,
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: and it happens to be not what you need or
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: not what you're wanting at all. And I've created more
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: disconnection than connection.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: I think that's why communication is so powerful and why
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: being able to communicate what we actually want or need
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: to those that we care about and that care about
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: us is so important. Because That might even change over time, right?
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: Maybe before we had kids, I loved when my husband
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: would plan a spontaneous trip somewhere, like dinner out. And
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: now if he were to do that, I'd be like, wait,
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: we don't have a plan for the kids. And like,
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: I had this food prepared, you know? So that that
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: also changes. So that's why that communication like had you
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: been able to communicate with your dad in that way.
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: But I think, you know, there are people there are generations,
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: certainly sort of the stoicism of certain generations and men
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: in my family of sort of working farmers in a
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: generation where you would never say anything like that. You
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: wouldn't say I love you, it would be do you
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: have enough money? You know, are you going to be,
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: are you going to drive home safely? Are you, et cetera.
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: So I think, you know, trying to interpret.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: You met him. When did you meet him?
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: I have met him many times for sure.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: Oh, wow. Yeah. My dad, not to bring anything down,
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: but he passed away about four weeks ago. And it
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: was interesting because obviously that was a whole interesting time.
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: But one of my friends was sitting with dad, a
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: lady who's, mind-blowingly compassionate and just tapped in and one
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: million times emotionally more involved than me. I'm essentially a plant, right?
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: But she was, anyway, she was talking to dad who
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: was like, not, didn't have long to go. And she
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: said to her, you know, do you love Mary? Which
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: is my mom. And he goes, no, she said, what
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: do you love most about Mary? And he said, oh,
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: there are too many things. There are too many things.
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: And then she said, do you love Craig? And he goes,
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: of course. And then he didn't say anything. And then
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: he said, I've been very hard on him, which is
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: like for my dad, like three or four days before
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: he dies, like this revelation. And even that, like, not
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: that I wanted him to change or do anything, but
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: just that recognition. I went, yeah, you were kind of hard, dad,
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: you know, still love you, but you were hard, you know?
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: So yeah. And it's funny how just like, for me anyway,
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: one sentence, depending on the context and who it comes
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: from and why it's like that for me was, I
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: don't know, it was somewhat transformational. Yeah.
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: Well, how beautiful that she evoked those, you know, those answers,
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: because I think it can be sometimes we feel like
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: we've missed those opportunities. And thinking about, you know, someone
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: like your dad, like the perspective they had of, you know,
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: why did they make those choices, right? To acknowledge that
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: he knew it. It may have been a choice they
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: made based on what they thought was going to keep
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: you safe or make you successful or make sure that
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: you could take care of yourself in the long.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: Run, right?
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: So again, that intention may be very different from how
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: it's received, but that can be really difficult. That's where
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: communication and even this very brief communication. Think how beautiful
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: those words.
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: Felt to hear.
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, that I think Stephen Covey,
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: it's a chapter in the seven habits of highly effective people, but,
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: and it's used elsewhere, but it's, it's seek first to
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: understand and then to be understood, which is a lot
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: of people use that. But I had a moment when
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: I was, I feel like I'm in a session now. Sorry,
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: just shut me down if you need me to. Hey, Craig,
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: this wasn't what I signed up for. But I'd had
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: a moment with dad and one of my dad's friends,
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: who's way smarter than me, also said to me, have
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: you ever thought about your dad as a child, as
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: a baby, as a toddler? Yeah. as a young child,
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: as a teenager, and what he grew up in. And
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: Dad was born in the first year of the Second
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: World War and basically grew up like one of six boys,
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: eight people in the family, one income, and lots of
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: other very difficult, on top of that, way more difficult challenges.
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: And then it's funny because then I, all of a sudden,
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: I was looking through another window, not the Craig window,
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh. And I had this moment where
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: I went, my life is actually Hollywood. Like my childhood
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: was a Disney movie compared to my dad's, you know,
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: and so less selfish, less all about me, but having a,
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: you know, understanding a little bit that theory of mine,
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: somebody else's version of what is, somebody else's, you know,
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: like thinking. And yeah, that for me was also a
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: turning point where I stopped being such a bitter little moron.
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: I think the ability to really try and see from
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: someone else's perspective can be so valuable. And you think
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: about this time of disconnection and sort of anger and polarization,
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: particularly in my country, taking a moment to try and
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: understand where is that coming from? My father and I
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: are on a very different spectrum as far as our
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: political ideas. And I have to, like you said, figure
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: out what was his experience growing up? What was his
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: idea of what it meant to be Strong or successful
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: or what's important to him. And sometimes I can get there.
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: And sometimes I'm just like, Dad, let's just go listen
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: to some Motown and stop talking about politics, because I
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: just can't, you know, go there. But but that can
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: be such a powerful movement toward change if more of
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: us were invested in trying to do that.
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: It's an interesting one because you don't want to live
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: in an echo chamber. You don't want the people that
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: are close to you. They don't have to believe what
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: you believe, think what you think, share the same values, ideologies. Otherwise,
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: you're in a cognitive cult, right? It's like I've got
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: friends that we are diametrically opposed on lots of things,
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: but also friends who we agree on things, but it's
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: like yeah trying to not let that be in any
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: way an influencer of our connection like and also recognizing
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: before you have that conversation like i think you know
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: being able to have a really high level you know
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: conversation with somebody about a topic right that's intelligence but
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: maybe wisdom is realizing it's better off to not have
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: that conversation you know Right.
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: It's sort of how can we find things where we
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: do align, where maybe we do have shared values or
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: shared experiences or shared love that we can rely on.
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah. All right. Tell me about the guilt equation, Doc.
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: Tell me what that is. I read about that. That's
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: a concept or an idea that you explore. Yeah.
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: Well, I wanted something that we could use across contexts,
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: because I think we can have guilt in so many
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: different roles in our lives.
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: And so.
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: The guilt equation is just simply the guilt is our
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: expectations of ourselves minus our perceived reality, meaning minus what
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: we notice ourselves doing. Because as you and I both know,
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: it's only what we pay attention to in ourselves that
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: seems real to us, right? We might just dismiss everything
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: that we've done well and just focus on things that
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: aren't going well. So the guilt is where is in
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: that discrepancy between who we think we should be and
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: who we believe that we are. And that's where we
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: can adjust both of those variables somewhat to actually lower
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: our guilt.
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: What was the spark that lit the guilt fire for you,
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: as in your curiosity to research this, to write about it?
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: Was it because it kind of hadn't been done? Or
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: maybe it's been done, but I'm not aware of anything.
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: But what lit that fire?
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: Well, I think I didn't really understand why it was happening.
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: Why was this so common? Why were women who were
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: sitting across from me, who were just remarkable, successful, bright,
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: interesting people telling me that they were complete failures and
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: that they felt like the whole day they were messing up, right?
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: It was, I didn't have a clear answer. And I
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: do like to go and find writers and thinkers and
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: explore that and maybe even find a book to recommend
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: to a patient.
• 37:46
  Speaker 3: And I just didn't, I didn't find it. I was
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: surprised by that.
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: As you said, like you've had all these podcasts and
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: you've not spoken about guilt. Like it is something that
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: once you sort of put a name to it, so
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: many people are like, oh, yeah, I feel that all
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: the time. But, you know, you can't push back against
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: something if you don't have a clear name for it
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: because it just exists in the shadows.
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: So obviously, you know, it can be a positive or
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: a negative, healthy or unhealthy. Let's talk about the unhealthy side.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: And I know there's no three-step plan, but how do
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: we move in the right direction to deal with that
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: effectively so that doesn't become a limiting factor moving forward
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: or the same level of limiting factor?
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: When you think about those two variables, so if we
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: start with expectations, you could really describe that as what
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: story am I telling myself about how I should be
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: in this role? And I think we have to acknowledge
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: that that story is coming from somewhere. It's not just us.
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: We created it out of nowhere. It's coming from what
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: we've been taught from the way that we, things were
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: reflected back to us growing up, right? That this expectation
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: I carry the story I'm telling myself about what it
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: would take to be a good, whatever role, mother.
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: Partner, friend.
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: Is this a story that, that I've really written based
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: on values that are important to me? Or is this
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: a story I just sort of accepted? It's like, oh,
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: that's how you're supposed to do it. And I got
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: it from a family member who I don't necessarily want
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: to copy.
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: I got it from.
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: Social media or from a celebrity influencer that was telling
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: me this is how it should be.
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: Done, right? Like, what is it?
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: Where did those expectations come from? So that I can potentially,
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: I think about them as like a rough draft. like
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: this is what we've been carrying, but we can rewrite it.
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: We can edit those to be more aligned with what's
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: actually important to us.
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: It's one of the challenges in terms of becoming really
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: more aware so that like we don't just become a
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: version of whoever we've been around and whatever we've been
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: around like the idea of um thinking outside of all
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: of the influences like i wouldn't even think like this
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: when i was younger but like i feel like where
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: i was anyway i grew up in a very catholic
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: environment and You know, mum and dad were great, but
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: all of these, you know, things that this is how
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: the world works, Craig. We barrack for this team. We
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: vote for this party. We're the one true believers. We're
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: going straight to God. No one else is. We eat meat.
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: You know, there's all these things that I didn't go,
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure about this whole kind of eternity thing.
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: I've got a few questions because you're like, fuck your questions.
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: Like you just joined, dude. You're just in the group.
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: And so I'm told what to think. I'm not encouraged
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: how to think. And I feel like this is the
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: cognitive cult, echo chamber, whatever, that most people live in
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: some kind of psychological echo chamber, for want of a
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: better term, but they don't even realize they're in it.
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: And then their belief becomes intertwined with their identity. So
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: if you question their, their belief, just honestly, just go,
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: what about this? Then they think you're questioning them. Right.
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: And it's, it's like, theoretically you go like you and I,
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: this is what I always think when I'm talking to
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: someone smart like you, I go, yep, this is good.
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: But how do we actually do it? You know, it's like,
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: how do we, how does somebody listen to this? And
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: then six months later, I bump into them and they go,
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: guess what, Craig, this is what I've done. This is
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: what's happened. You know, that's that, Do people have to
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: be ready? It's like I can tell people how to
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: eat and train and run and lift and stretch and
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: recover and hydrate and all these things, right? But that
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: doesn't mean they're going to do any of it. I'm
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: just giving them information and data and stories. How do
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: we get people to actually comply so that their real
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: lived experience becomes different? I know that is a very
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: difficult question. I apologise in advance. And if you go,
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't blame you.
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: Well, I was just reviewing something called motivational interviewing, which
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: was designed to help people struggling with addiction, but I
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: think can be applied really broadly. And one of the
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: really key tenants that I think is so important is
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: that we are far more likely to respond to change
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: talk as they describe it, like this desire for change,
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: a plan to change. If we hear ourselves saying it,
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: if it's coming from us, it's not that someone else
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: is telling us this.
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: Is what we need to do.
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: So I think that just as the person to come
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: in to the gym to work with you takes that
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: first step, it's just that showing up. In fact, I
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: have this speak protocol in the book and it's S
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: is for showing up.
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: It's for saying, I want to question this a little bit.
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: And I think just the more times I talk about
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: guilt and the more people say, I don't think I
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: have much guilt. And then they're like, wait a minute. Oh,
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: and then they start to spot it. We're breaking out
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: of that sort of automatic. This is where my thoughts go.
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: Just that.
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: That's that deep path that I've always been taught. It
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: goes right to guilt and guilt makes my decisions, right?
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: I'm asking them to question that. Like it really is
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: this form of sort of, you know, activism, like pushing
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: back on the story that I've been told forever. And
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: so there can be feelings of grief there. Like, why
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: did I believe this?
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: You know, that feeling when people sort of break out
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: of the cult-like environment and there's just this sense of shame. Like,
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: how did I fall for that? So I think, recognizing
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: that we can't pull people to that place, but we
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: can help them start to identify in their own lives
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: what they might want to change and understand why that's
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: the case, right? There has to be a why that
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: they can return to and saying, well, someone told me to.
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: Whenever someone comes to me referred by a family member
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: for therapy and says, my family thinks I need to
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: have therapy. I don't think I need it. We're done
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: on arrival. That's just not going anywhere. So these are
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: some of the things that I'm looking forward. This book
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: is not just like, I'm going to fix everything point
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: one to point five, but that it's going to make
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: you more aware that guilt is a big issue in
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: your life and then give you some tools to start.
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: Making a change.
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: I like it. So one of the things that I
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: guess get asked a lot over the years, like one
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: or two times a week about myself, because I'm very,
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: like I have a protocol that I I don't smoke.
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: I don't drink. I've never done drugs. I've never had alcohol.
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: I eat two meals, maybe three a day. I train
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: every day. But I just do these things because they
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: work for my body. They work for my brain, not
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: because I'm obsessed or in fact, yesterday I was sick.
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: I didn't train, which is very abnormal today. I'm not great.
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: So I might not train. So it's not an addiction,
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: but it's like, I've just built this operating system that
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: I do on autopilot. I think one of the problems with, um,
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: let's divide motivation into definition one, motivation is your reason
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: for doing something. But often when I'm talking or your goal,
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: when I'm talking with people, when they talk about motivation,
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: they're talking about their emotional state, how they feel, I'm excited,
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: I'm motivated, I'm pumped. It's like a state that they
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: get in. And they say to me, how do you
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: stay so motivated for so long? And I say, I don't.
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: I'm often not motivated, but just because I'm not motivated
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: doesn't mean I can't get stuff done or I can't
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: be proactive or effective or productive because if I was
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: dependent on motivation, the emotional state, I'd never get anywhere
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: because I'm probably that version of me, the inspired, motivated 5%
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: of my life and 95% just harps, just showing up,
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: doing stuff, you know, so that helping people understand you
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: don't need to feel inspired and you don't need incredible
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: discipline and You just need to be able to, over time,
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: create habits that are hardwired, that align with who and
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: how you want to be. And that's not fun process either.
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: And that's not a quick process either. But when you
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: build what I just call, in lay terms, like an
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: operating system or a behavioral operating system for you that
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: exists irrespective of how you feel on a given day,
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: then now all of those things that people lack, which is, oh, yeah,
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: I did it for three months and I lost this
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: or I did that, but then I just, you know, that.
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: Because it's the nobody that you talk to or I
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: talk to, nobody wants temporary results. Nobody. Everybody wants to
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: create lasting change. And I go, well, lasting change can't
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: be a byproduct, will never be a byproduct of inspiration
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: and motivation. So when we're inspired or motivated in that sense,
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: that's great. But the important question is what you do
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: when you're not inspired or motivated.
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: I think that shows the importance of things like habit, right?
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: The whole field of behavioral economics is on like, how
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: can we sort of nudge people to make the right choices, right?
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: How can we make a massive change in how much
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: they save based on having them remove themselves from a
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: savings plan as opposed to opt in to a savings plan, right?
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: That sort of decreasing some of the friction in these situations, right?
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: Finding ways, you know, Katie Milkman wrote this great book,
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: How to Change. She's at Wharton here in Philadelphia. And
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: one of the things she talked about, which I was doing,
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: I was so excited, was, you know, having, like when
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: I ride the exercise bike, which is right next to
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: me over here, I always, that's when I allow myself
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: to watch the TV shows that otherwise I'd probably be
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: embarrassed to be watching. But like, that is my special time.
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: And if I want to watch that show, I've got
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: to get on that bike. And so how do we
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: find ways to kind of nudge ourselves? Because you're right,
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: there are days where I do not want to and
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: where any of us are going to say, this is
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: too hard. And there might be days where we have
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: to step away, like during your illness. It's also important
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: to have the flexibility in ourselves to say that had
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: to happen, something else took priority, but I can get
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: back to it, right?
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: And get back to those habits.
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: And I think we can get in this really like
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: black and white perfection idea about how I need to
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: maintain this perfect diet or perfect workout routine. And if
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: I don't, then I quit. And that I think is
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: really one of the worst things that we can choose
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: to do.
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that is very true. Like the line between or
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: the gap between, you know, doing the things that you
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: need to do consistently or, you know, a bit of
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: discipline and self-control and a bit of structure and process.
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: The gap between that and obsession is not that far sometimes. Yeah.
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: You know what I mean? And then people stake obsession for,
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: I don't know, discipline, mate. Right.
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: And are you sort of, you know, not allowing yourself
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: some of the things that actually make life really pleasurable
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: that might come out of the blue or might interfere sometimes,
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: not all the time, but sometimes like I maybe want
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: to skip the gym and go get some ice cream
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: with my kids.
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: And like, that's okay. That doesn't make me like a
• 49:06
  Speaker 3: bad person. And I think how do.
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: We give ourselves the flexibility to be human and While also,
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: you know, doing the things that really make sense for us.
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: So smart. Thank you for chatting with me. And thank
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: you for me. my audience. They will love you. They
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: will want you to come back. Tell us, give us
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: a quick promo on the book. Give us the snapshot.
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: I know we've covered bits and pieces, but just give
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: people like maybe whatever you want, 30, 60 seconds synopsis
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: of what they're going to get.
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: So guilt is really, guilt-free is my answer to this
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: question that so many people have of why do I
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: feel like I'm never doing enough? Why do I always
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: feel like I'm inadequate or just not enough? And I
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: wanted to help them understand this is guilt, that we've
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: been taught, we've been trained to feel this way, but
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: it doesn't have to be our continued experience. That we
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: can learn how to identify those triggers, take away that
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: automatic guilt response and make choices based on things like desire, pleasure, fun, excitement,
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: and things that are other than guilt. So look, we
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: can live our lives better.
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Um, is it on audio available on audio?
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I got to record the audio. So they'll hear
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: my voice speaking, hopefully the right pace and sound for them.
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: But yeah, it's available. Audiobook ebook.
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: Um, I was hoping you would say that you have
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: a very listenable voice who sounds like gravel on bitumen. Um,
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: I appreciate you. How can people follow you or connect
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: with you on socials or website or, I don't know,
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: LinkedIn or if people want to learn a bit about you? Yeah.
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: I mean, my website is just jenniferreedmd.com. And then I'm
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: on Substack, which does, you know, essays on my podcast.
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: It's called A Mind of Her Own. So they could
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: find me if they just, you know, search that title.
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: How long have you been doing your podcast?
• 51:07
  Speaker 3: Gosh, I think about five years now. Wow.
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: Great.
• 51:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: Nowhere near the thousands of episodes you've had, but I
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: have gotten to interview some really wonderful people and hear
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: their stories.
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: So it's really a labor of love for me.
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: Jennifer, it's been great. I appreciate you will say goodbye
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: off air, but for the minutes. Thanks for being on
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: the You Project. You were great.
• 51:30
  Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.