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Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: The Mayor and The Murders · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:01
Speaker 1: Quody does, but Joseph's gotten more. Many times we wonder
0:09
Speaker 1: why certain individuals choose a particular profession. There's any number
0:17
Speaker 1: of motivations, you know, behind it. Maybe it's a generational thing.
0:25
Speaker 1: Maybe you're trying to listen to your own inner voice
0:30
Speaker 1: and you go down a path that no one had
0:34
Speaker 1: ever expected. But then there are those individuals that they
0:42
Speaker 1: seek out positions where they can be in power. It
0:49
Speaker 1: doesn't really matter that they don't have much substance to them,
0:54
Speaker 1: or that they don't bring anything edifye to the table.
1:00
Speaker 1: We're going to talk about a case. Actually, it's dismissive
1:05
Speaker 1: to say a case. It's not singular cases. And the
1:11
Speaker 1: reason I say case is we're going to talk about
1:15
Speaker 1: a triple homicide involving one such individual who possibly sought
1:28
Speaker 1: out employment as a law enforcement officer so that he
1:35
Speaker 1: could quote unquote be in charge. Say Morgan, why would
1:40
Speaker 1: you say that law enforcement aficer he's going to be
1:42
Speaker 1: in charge? Yeah, I guess you could question that, But
1:45
Speaker 1: you know, this guy was not only previously a law
1:50
Speaker 1: enforcement aulser, he was also a sitting mayor. The only
1:55
Speaker 1: difference is is that with him, he's a true ble
2:00
Speaker 1: homicide suspect. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body backs, Dave.
2:10
Speaker 1: Don't you hate to be around folks that are, I
2:17
Speaker 1: don't know, self endowed with power? I guess they they
2:23
Speaker 1: It's always been the measure to me that if you
2:26
Speaker 1: have power and you choose not to wield it, that
2:32
Speaker 1: you hold it in reserve. It's always the quiet person
2:35
Speaker 1: in the room, isn't it. They say, that's the most
2:37
Speaker 1: dangerous person in the room that has power, but yet
2:41
Speaker 1: they choose not to overstep the boundaries of good, good taste.
2:47
Speaker 1: That's the person I'm concerned about. But you get somebody
2:50
Speaker 1: that's bombastic and really full of themselves. Though those people
2:53
Speaker 1: are kind of nauseating to me.
2:55
Speaker 2: Well, you got the old thing of the loudest person
2:58
Speaker 2: in the room is the weakest, and the inverse course,
3:01
Speaker 2: the quietest person is the strike if you're if you're
3:03
Speaker 2: truly strong and powerful and know who you are, you
3:07
Speaker 2: don't have to be like as a matter of fact,
3:09
Speaker 2: you can just listen, you know. Oh yeah, I remember
3:13
Speaker 2: Uncle Polly and Goodfellas that, Oh yeah, he would he
3:16
Speaker 2: would never he never wanted people to hear what he
3:18
Speaker 2: was saying. But he never wanted people to hear what
3:20
Speaker 2: he was being told, either that the power of.
3:23
Speaker 1: PAULI didn't even own a phone. He didn't even own
3:26
Speaker 1: a phone. There you go, do all the calls from
3:29
Speaker 1: from the pay phone, you know, uh yeah, you're right. Yeah,
3:33
Speaker 1: And you know Pollie continuing that that thread the narrator
3:39
Speaker 1: uh uh you know says that Paully didn't move fast
3:45
Speaker 1: because Pauli didn't.
3:47
Speaker 2: Have to exactly.
3:50
Speaker 1: But today's you know, today's case cases. Again, I hate
3:55
Speaker 1: to keep saying a case in the singular that we're
3:58
Speaker 1: going to be discussing in.
3:59
Speaker 2: One case with three victims.
4:01
Speaker 1: There you go, yeah, yeah, it is one case. However,
4:04
Speaker 1: I will, I will, I will let people know that
4:09
Speaker 1: first off, obviously we have three homicide victims here, and
4:13
Speaker 1: folks might think about this and maybe have never considered,
4:17
Speaker 1: did you know, at the medical Examiner's office and in
4:19
Speaker 1: a corner's office, if you have like a multiple homicide
4:25
Speaker 1: we signed, we assign separate case numbers or what in
4:31
Speaker 1: the medical examiner world, they're called a session numbers to
4:34
Speaker 1: each individual. And it's not just a matter of honoring
4:38
Speaker 1: their humanity or anything like that. It's to keep them
4:40
Speaker 1: separate because with three three homicide victims, guess what, that's
4:45
Speaker 1: a that's three counts, that's three counts of homicide. And
4:50
Speaker 1: so each individual has to be stood up for essentially,
4:55
Speaker 1: and that investigation is separate, it's separate, but yet they
4:58
Speaker 1: come together. And and you know, when you're when you're
5:02
Speaker 1: talking about an individual that that commits an act like this,
5:10
Speaker 1: you really have to wonder where their mind is at.
5:12
Speaker 1: And you know what I thought, Dave, I got to
5:14
Speaker 1: tell you, I had this moment when I was reading
5:16
Speaker 1: the story and I was thinking, anybody, anybody could have
5:22
Speaker 1: fallen into the sights of this guy, if you'd just
5:26
Speaker 1: shown up at that single standing structure up there in
5:31
Speaker 1: South Dakota where this case cases take place, if you
5:35
Speaker 1: just showed, if you if you had been on the stoop,
5:37
Speaker 1: you'd be dead as well.
5:39
Speaker 2: And I thought, I thought.
5:41
Speaker 1: A lot about that. I remember thinking a lot about
5:43
Speaker 1: that as an investigator many years ago. And that's a
5:48
Speaker 1: it's a horrible thing, but it was. It was always
5:51
Speaker 1: very chilling. You know, the old adage of there but
5:54
Speaker 1: for the grace of God go I it applies, and
5:57
Speaker 1: that you know that you you're part for some reason
6:01
Speaker 1: that you weren't in that space, and that happens with
6:04
Speaker 1: multiple homicides. Many times people just absolutely go nuts and
6:08
Speaker 1: they start randomly killing people day.
6:11
Speaker 2: Well, Jay Austrom is the former mayor of Centerville, South Dakota.
6:14
Speaker 2: He's also a former sheriff's deputy, and at sixty four
6:19
Speaker 2: years old, his wife, Victoria, tells him that she had
6:24
Speaker 2: been drinking with a neighbor and the neighbor forcibly kissed
6:29
Speaker 2: her and showed her his genitals. That's where all of
6:34
Speaker 2: this begins. Having drinks and Jay Austrom allegedly grabs his gun.
6:41
Speaker 2: Well don't know if he had to grab it from
6:43
Speaker 2: the house, because his wife said he had guns in
6:45
Speaker 2: the car, and he decided, I'm going to teach that
6:49
Speaker 2: man a lesson about messing with another man's wife. And
6:53
Speaker 2: if you remember Leroy Brown, I mean as a junkyard dog, well,
6:59
Speaker 2: Jay Austrom, he was as mean as a junkyard dog,
7:02
Speaker 2: and anybody in his wake was going to be in
7:05
Speaker 2: trouble that night, allegedly, So you've laid it out perfectly, Joe,
7:09
Speaker 2: that if you had been on this stoop, as is
7:13
Speaker 2: kind of the case here with the three victims, the
7:16
Speaker 2: one who calls nine one one actually had been shot
7:20
Speaker 2: and actually during the nine one one call dies or
7:25
Speaker 2: at least cannot shock. Yeah, he goes silent.
7:29
Speaker 1: But isn't that a chilling thing? Can you? I've always
7:33
Speaker 1: you know, one job I would never want to have,
7:36
Speaker 1: and God bless him, I've had to talk to him
7:38
Speaker 1: for years. Are the people in headquarters that are that
7:43
Speaker 1: are part of the people that work the radio is
7:45
Speaker 1: relative to the police, and many times they'll be housed together. Okay,
7:51
Speaker 1: it depends upon the size of the of the department.
7:55
Speaker 1: You'll have people that are receiving nine to eleven calls.
7:58
Speaker 1: They'll kick it over to dispatch, or some times they're
8:00
Speaker 1: one and the same. That job, to me as tough
8:04
Speaker 1: as being a death investigator was. And the things that
8:06
Speaker 1: we see. Can you imagine being in this end it
8:10
Speaker 1: is it's like this big dark room that's light that's
8:15
Speaker 1: lighted with the glow of all the computers and the
8:18
Speaker 1: keyboards and all of that stuff, and you hear all
8:21
Speaker 1: of these things on the other end of those lines,
8:24
Speaker 1: people that are in the worst conditions that you can imagine,
8:29
Speaker 1: and then you don't really know what happens. I can't
8:32
Speaker 1: imagine that operator that was on the other end of
8:36
Speaker 1: the line and she's getting information from this guy and
8:40
Speaker 1: he's asking for help, and then all of a sudden,
8:43
Speaker 1: line goes dead, silent, and that job in and of itself,
8:48
Speaker 1: I don't think I could do it. It's a very
8:51
Speaker 1: difficult time. I mean, God bless everybody that works in
8:53
Speaker 1: nine to eleven. It is a tough, tough job. I
8:57
Speaker 1: don't see how you decompress from it after doing the
9:00
Speaker 1: things that they do.
9:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's tough. I think that's why. I think that's
9:04
Speaker 2: why when a nine to one one operator makes a
9:07
Speaker 2: mistake by being cold or whatever and we hear it
9:10
Speaker 2: that they get judged very harshly because it doesn't happen often.
9:15
Speaker 2: They actually do maintain an even strain they have to,
9:19
Speaker 2: and I'm with you as shocking. I can't imagine what
9:22
Speaker 2: you do, and I can't imagine the helpless feeling, because
9:25
Speaker 2: when somebody calls nine to one one, they're not calling
9:27
Speaker 2: a daughter at pizza. They're ordering it, usually because something
9:31
Speaker 2: worse than they ever imagine happening has happened to them,
9:35
Speaker 2: and they are the ones having to make the call.
9:37
Speaker 2: And in this particular case, the victims here, Joe, are
9:43
Speaker 2: all three young men, Paul Franks, his brother Zach Franks,
9:47
Speaker 2: and Timothy Richmond. Paul Franks is twenty six. He's the
9:50
Speaker 2: one that is alleged to have been inappropriate with Jay
9:56
Speaker 2: Edward Ostrom's wife. Now I've been trying to find out
9:59
Speaker 2: how old Victory or Austrom is. I went to her
10:02
Speaker 2: Facebook page and looked at some things there, and she
10:05
Speaker 2: does look younger, yes, than her husband, but I can't
10:10
Speaker 2: find an actual age. And the reason I'm saying that
10:13
Speaker 2: is because again, Paul Francs is twenty six, his brother
10:17
Speaker 2: Zach is twenty one, and the other one victim, Timothy Richmond,
10:21
Speaker 2: is thirty five. I believe Timothy Richmond was in the
10:25
Speaker 2: wrong place at the wrong time and was just as
10:29
Speaker 2: you mentioned, kind of sitting on the stoop when everything
10:32
Speaker 2: went down. But Jay Austrom was out for revenge. She
10:35
Speaker 2: was out to teach a man a lesson. And if
10:38
Speaker 2: you're you know what, Joe, if you show up with
10:40
Speaker 2: a bat or a golf club or something to threaten
10:43
Speaker 2: another man for doing something inappropriate with your wife, and
10:47
Speaker 2: all you do is get into a shuffle, a scuffle,
10:49
Speaker 2: you know, pushing and shoving, that's one thing. But he
10:52
Speaker 2: shows up with not just one type. He has a shotgun,
10:55
Speaker 2: but he also has a pistol. He's got multiple weapons here.
10:58
Speaker 1: And the reason we know that platform exactly our platform rifle,
11:03
Speaker 1: yeah as well, and that goes you know, that goes
11:06
Speaker 1: to this, you know, the again, people are going to
11:09
Speaker 1: talk about it, the premeditative factor here. You know, which
11:14
Speaker 1: do you show up. And it's a good point that
11:18
Speaker 1: you make. We could argue, I guess extensively about a
11:23
Speaker 1: baseball bat, and if you're demonstrating deadly forced with a
11:27
Speaker 1: baseball bat, you can sell it to certain people. But
11:31
Speaker 1: if you're trying to sell it to me, comparing that
11:34
Speaker 1: to even a three eighty, which is a very tiny
11:38
Speaker 1: one of the smaller calibers of pistol rounds.
11:40
Speaker 2: That one of the mentioned here, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
11:45
Speaker 2: And to be clear, okay, Joe, well let's back up
11:47
Speaker 2: for a minute. You mentioned the ar platform. What specifically
11:50
Speaker 2: are you talking about.
11:52
Speaker 1: Well, you know, people use a r and for whatever
11:57
Speaker 1: reason they think that are means assault rifle. That's not
12:02
Speaker 1: a real term. I was in the military. We never
12:05
Speaker 1: used assault rifle. You know, it's just just the term
12:10
Speaker 1: that has been manufactured. AR actually originates from the name,
12:15
Speaker 1: which is a brand called Armolite and Armorlite is you
12:20
Speaker 1: got to go all the way back to, you know,
12:23
Speaker 1: the first the first M sixteen rifles, which are you know,
12:29
Speaker 1: it's like in the family tree of these AR platforms.
12:33
Speaker 1: The M sixteen rifle is the first thing that our
12:36
Speaker 1: troops had that was kind of a new space ag
12:40
Speaker 1: kind of weapon back during the Vietnam era, because you know,
12:44
Speaker 1: we're coming out of the first The first weapon that
12:49
Speaker 1: we had that was really introduced as a infantry weapon
12:53
Speaker 1: in the Vietnam era was the M fourteen, which is
12:58
Speaker 1: just kind of a variant on the weapon that was
13:00
Speaker 1: used in World War Two, which was the N one Grant.
13:03
Speaker 1: It's just that you know, M fourteen fire seven point
13:07
Speaker 1: sixty two or like a three h eight round, like
13:09
Speaker 1: a deer deer hunting round, very bold, robust. Some units
13:14
Speaker 1: still carry them, but really bulky wooden stock and it
13:20
Speaker 1: would warp. The stock would actually warp in Vietnam because
13:24
Speaker 1: it was a wooden It was a wooden but that
13:28
Speaker 1: the M sixteen, the Armorlite didn't because it's made out
13:33
Speaker 1: of a composite. Now, they would foul really easily, and
13:37
Speaker 1: they'd have jamming problems. We had jamming problems even when
13:40
Speaker 1: I qualified with it way back in the early eighties.
13:46
Speaker 1: It but the round is so much smaller. It's five
13:49
Speaker 1: point five six millimeter or zero point two two three caliber,
13:58
Speaker 1: which are two different measuring systems. And when I say
14:04
Speaker 1: point two two three to give you an idea the
14:07
Speaker 1: size of the round itself, when we're talking about the
14:09
Speaker 1: diameter of the round that's in the same family as
14:14
Speaker 1: a twenty two caliber, it's just that you've got more
14:18
Speaker 1: power behind it. It's not like a tiny little shell
14:21
Speaker 1: casing like you have with a twenty two rifle. This
14:24
Speaker 1: is a small caliber round that's being driven out by
14:30
Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of propellant. And so the velocity on
14:36
Speaker 1: the thing is pretty remarkable, but the damage is questionable
14:41
Speaker 1: when you compare it to the seven point six two So.
14:43
Speaker 2: Ed right back up, because you mentioned velocity, how does
14:46
Speaker 2: the velocity versus the size of the round account for
14:53
Speaker 2: the injuries cause? Meaning, is a bigger round at a
14:56
Speaker 2: slower velocity going to do more damage than a small
14:59
Speaker 2: one and a fast last?
15:01
Speaker 1: Right? Yeah? And so you know there there are many
15:04
Speaker 1: accounts of people being shot in combat. And you can
15:09
Speaker 1: even hear this from spec Ops guys that have had
15:12
Speaker 1: to carry the five point five six. You know, they
15:17
Speaker 1: can put and these guys are really good at what
15:19
Speaker 1: they do.
15:20
Speaker 2: I feel so stupid. Armorlite rifle was what they are that.
15:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so it's you know, it's just it's one
15:27
Speaker 1: of those convenient terms that political types have used, you know,
15:30
Speaker 1: to try to reemphasize this idea of assault rifle, the
15:34
Speaker 1: five point five six when it's fired. I'm using these
15:37
Speaker 1: terms interchangeable five point five six and two two three,
15:40
Speaker 1: and there is a slight difference, but it's in the
15:42
Speaker 1: same family. You know, when when there are many accounts
15:46
Speaker 1: out there where people even in spec Ops community, where
15:49
Speaker 1: they're putting rounds on target with five point five six
15:52
Speaker 1: and they're having to shoot multiple times because sometimes, you know,
15:58
Speaker 1: individuals will not even be aware that they've been shot.
16:02
Speaker 1: It's such a tiny ground. Whereas if you get shot
16:04
Speaker 1: with a seven point six y two, which is the
16:09
Speaker 1: equivalent of zero point three eight, which is like Grandpappy's
16:16
Speaker 1: deer hunting rifle, if you're going to take down you know,
16:19
Speaker 1: a deer or maybe an elk, it's going to be
16:22
Speaker 1: sufficient to the task. It's going to deliver that energy
16:25
Speaker 1: through a round that has much more mass, you know.
16:29
Speaker 1: And we hear that about stopping power, you know, people
16:31
Speaker 1: we use that term, and it's really kind of people
16:35
Speaker 1: don't really know what that means, the stopping power, because
16:38
Speaker 1: I don't know that it's necessarily measurable as many people think.
16:42
Speaker 1: But I do know this. I do know that from
16:46
Speaker 1: what we're being told that this fellow, this former mayor
16:53
Speaker 1: and former police officer, in not just one but two
16:57
Speaker 1: separate jurisdictions, he showed up ready for any number of
17:06
Speaker 1: possibilities because it wasn't just one weapon. He apparently showed
17:11
Speaker 1: up the three. So apparently, Dave, what I am understanding
17:29
Speaker 1: is that we've got about four days that elapsed between
17:35
Speaker 1: the time that Jay Ostram's wife was approached or, as
17:47
Speaker 1: she had put it, you know, kind of exposed to
17:53
Speaker 1: this individual that she was drinking with. Interesting thing though,
17:59
Speaker 1: that I have discovered is that the exposure that she
18:05
Speaker 1: was subjected to took place, Dave, actually in her own home.
18:10
Speaker 1: It took place as as Jay Edward Ostrom was asleep
18:18
Speaker 1: in his home. He's asleep, his wife is still there
18:23
Speaker 1: drinking with a man. Can I interject something here real quick?
18:28
Speaker 1: If if the shoe were on the other foot, and
18:34
Speaker 1: it were Kim and I my precious wife, and I
18:40
Speaker 1: was sitting up in my house drinking with some woman
18:47
Speaker 1: from down the street, and literally this person is from
18:49
Speaker 1: down the street and my wife is sleeping in the house.
18:54
Speaker 1: I can tell you I don't know what would happen,
18:57
Speaker 1: what she would do to the woman, but I would
18:59
Speaker 1: have hell to pay, I can tell you, you know, And
19:03
Speaker 1: I wouldn't. I wouldn't do this, you know. It's just
19:06
Speaker 1: it's an odd set of circumstances to me. And the
19:10
Speaker 1: fact that that he was in her space and in
19:15
Speaker 1: in Ostroum space as well, that that gives us an
19:20
Speaker 1: indication that there's a pre existing relationship here, that this
19:25
Speaker 1: guy felt comfortable enough to be in Ostrom's domicile with
19:30
Speaker 1: his wife and they're all partaking. Ostrom's asleep. Now we
19:35
Speaker 1: don't know if he passed out or not, but alcohol
19:38
Speaker 1: does play a role in this, which we'll come back
19:41
Speaker 1: to in just a moment. But don't you don't you
19:45
Speaker 1: find this dynamic a bit a bit odd, Dave.
19:50
Speaker 2: When people drink with neighbors they tend to drink because
19:54
Speaker 2: you I was going to say, tend to drink to
19:58
Speaker 2: excess because they're not going anywhere, you know, And that's
20:01
Speaker 2: who are dealing with. We are dealing with neighbors here
20:02
Speaker 2: that have been neighbors for a while and they are
20:05
Speaker 2: just they're drinking socially, what have you. And Jay goes
20:08
Speaker 2: to bed in his own house and this continues on.
20:11
Speaker 2: Victoria tells him about it later on, again not knowing
20:15
Speaker 2: all of the ins and outs of their relationship. I
20:18
Speaker 2: mentioned earlier when we first started that I'm trying to
20:21
Speaker 2: find out more about Victoria the wife because Jay Austrom,
20:27
Speaker 2: Just so you know, Jay Austrom was involved in law
20:32
Speaker 2: enforcement as a career for a long time, long time,
20:36
Speaker 2: and he knows better than to approach the situation with
20:42
Speaker 2: a weapon. He knows better, And I think he'll be
20:45
Speaker 2: judged harsher because of this, because.
20:49
Speaker 1: Dude, you are absolutely on the money with this, even
20:53
Speaker 1: if he's no longer a practicing law enforcement office officer.
20:57
Speaker 1: He knows where the guardrails are, Dave.
20:58
Speaker 2: Yes, And most adult men know where I say men,
21:03
Speaker 2: but most adults know the guardrails. Most people in relationships
21:08
Speaker 2: know there's a boundary you don't cross. Okay, you have.
21:11
Speaker 2: You're in the man's home. You're having drinks, you know, socializing.
21:16
Speaker 2: That's what we're dealing with here, just socializing having drinks. Now,
21:20
Speaker 2: Jay Austram goes to bed. Then this allegedly happens where
21:24
Speaker 2: the neighbor forcibly kisses the man's wife and exposes himself.
21:29
Speaker 2: I don't know what their relationships are, but I don't.
21:33
Speaker 1: And that's a curious thing. You know. It took Okay,
21:36
Speaker 1: so let me just so so our friends understand what
21:40
Speaker 1: we're talking about. As far as taught the time element
21:44
Speaker 1: and this this goes to something I've always wanted to
21:47
Speaker 1: discuss with you. I got to tell you. It's something
21:50
Speaker 1: I learned in an undergraduate criminal law class. And dig this.
21:54
Speaker 1: Let me lay this on you. I think you might
21:56
Speaker 1: find this interesting. But let's let's let's lay this out first.
22:00
Speaker 1: So this event, this drinking event in this home, this
22:05
Speaker 1: was on May the twenty third, and we're talking May
22:07
Speaker 1: twenty third, twenty twenty four here. It was four days.
22:13
Speaker 1: It was four days later when Jay Ostrom takes up
22:22
Speaker 1: these weapons and goes and perpetrates these crimes. Four days
22:28
Speaker 1: alleged alleged thank you, you're right, brother Dave, allegedly allegedly
22:36
Speaker 1: got I gotta lay something on you. I love this,
22:41
Speaker 1: this little aside that I learned in an undergraduate criminal
22:47
Speaker 1: law class that I took in New Orleans so many
22:51
Speaker 1: years ago, and it was taught by a guy that
22:53
Speaker 1: was a former prosecutor in Orleans Parish, and it had
22:56
Speaker 1: to do with state law in Louisiana. And I want
22:58
Speaker 1: you to dig this language. He was trying to give
23:02
Speaker 1: us an indication, you know how there are degrees of homicide.
23:07
Speaker 1: You've got first second in that sort of thing. And
23:10
Speaker 1: this idea of and there's an old term that they
23:14
Speaker 1: use in Louisiana, by the way, is uh it's it's
23:18
Speaker 1: not part of English common law. Their criminal code is
23:21
Speaker 1: based on the Napoleonic Code. It's the only state in
23:24
Speaker 1: the US where it has that that uh, that designation
23:27
Speaker 1: at any rate. There's a term that they use to
23:32
Speaker 1: kind of delineate between a crime of passion and something
23:40
Speaker 1: that required a bit more thought. And it's called dig.
23:43
Speaker 1: This is called the heating and cooling of blood. H
23:49
Speaker 1: And let me let me give you the example that
23:51
Speaker 1: he said, if a guy if a guy comes home
23:56
Speaker 1: in the middle of the day, and I think he
23:58
Speaker 1: had worked a case like this, If a oor head
24:03
Speaker 1: defended or prosecuted case like this, and he would. He
24:06
Speaker 1: cited this example several times. He said, if a guy
24:09
Speaker 1: comes home from work in the middle of the day
24:11
Speaker 1: and finds his wife in bed with another man, and
24:17
Speaker 1: there's a baseball bat right there at his fingertips, and
24:21
Speaker 1: he grabs a baseball bat and beats them both to death,
24:25
Speaker 1: by law, his blood has not had sufficient amount of
24:29
Speaker 1: time to cool. Okay, same scenario, only the guy comes
24:36
Speaker 1: into his house, sees his wife in bed with another man,
24:39
Speaker 1: you know, maybe looks through the crack in the door,
24:41
Speaker 1: turns on his heel, walks out the door, gets in
24:43
Speaker 1: his car, leaves, goes down to the local watering hole,
24:46
Speaker 1: sits there and has a beer. Sits there, gets back
24:52
Speaker 1: in his vehicle, drives to the house, and then walks
24:56
Speaker 1: in the house, grabs a baseball bat and beats him
24:58
Speaker 1: to death. He's had sufficient of tom for his blood
25:01
Speaker 1: to have cooled. The trick here is this in this
25:03
Speaker 1: particular case. Do when did she tell him about this?
25:09
Speaker 1: Did she tell him about this? The next morning? On
25:12
Speaker 1: the morning of the twenty fourth or whatever it was.
25:16
Speaker 1: Or did she say, honey, this happened back the other
25:20
Speaker 1: night on the twenty third, and you know, do something
25:25
Speaker 1: about it, or this happened in that amount of Tom
25:29
Speaker 1: actually had he?
25:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, she told him that night. She told him the
25:33
Speaker 2: night this happened, right before it happened. That's when she
25:35
Speaker 2: told him this happened on the twenty third while they
25:38
Speaker 2: were drinking at the Austrom home while Jay was asleep.
25:41
Speaker 2: But she waited until the twenty seventh, when they were
25:44
Speaker 2: having a few drinks again, and that's when Victoria Austrom
25:50
Speaker 2: tells Jay Austrom what had taken place the other night.
25:53
Speaker 2: And that's Jay immediately got on he saw red, and
26:00
Speaker 2: she said he went quote raging out of the house. Now, remember, Joe,
26:05
Speaker 2: it's not a long drive. It's across the street. These
26:07
Speaker 2: people are neighbors.
26:08
Speaker 1: Five doors down. Or is it that it approximates? That
26:12
Speaker 1: doesn't mean something their neighbors. Yes, this is yet and
26:15
Speaker 1: they're socialb neighbors.
26:17
Speaker 2: So yeah, it wasn't like he had a long time
26:20
Speaker 2: to cool off before he got there. He's seeing red.
26:23
Speaker 2: They did say he smelled of alcohol that night, so
26:26
Speaker 2: you have to know you don't have to assume. I'm
26:28
Speaker 2: going to assume because he has, you know, smelling like
26:31
Speaker 2: alcohol that he and his wife are drinking. She said, Hey,
26:33
Speaker 2: the other night, been wanting to tell you this, but
26:37
Speaker 2: this is what happened when you went to bed and boom,
26:40
Speaker 2: Jay's matt Wow.
26:44
Speaker 1: So had he had sufficient amount of time for his
26:46
Speaker 1: blood to have cooled or what was boiling is boiling?
26:51
Speaker 1: Raging as he leaves the house, Joe Holy smokes, so
26:55
Speaker 1: that that puts this in maybe a different light. You
26:58
Speaker 1: think about the alcohol, and we're not excusing this, But
27:01
Speaker 1: what I'm saying is I think that moving forward with
27:04
Speaker 1: the prosecution in this case, that's something that's going to
27:07
Speaker 1: be factored in. Alcohol is going to be factored in
27:09
Speaker 1: as well, because you know, any defense attorney worth their
27:12
Speaker 1: salt is going to say that. You know that, Look,
27:18
Speaker 1: this guy was under tremendous pressure. He's just been told this.
27:21
Speaker 1: He thinks his wife's been sexually assaulted and he wants
27:27
Speaker 1: he wants revenge for it. But you know, you think
27:29
Speaker 1: about three guys, you know, three guys, it would it's
27:34
Speaker 1: it's one of the things where you think about, well,
27:38
Speaker 1: wouldn't he target this specific person that had done this. Well,
27:42
Speaker 1: maybe he didn't have clarity of mind. Maybe he was
27:45
Speaker 1: so enraged he just went into a blind rage. Let's
27:47
Speaker 1: see if they use the old blackout defense. I mean,
27:51
Speaker 1: Tom said, we I think you were talking about the
27:53
Speaker 1: the other the day, you know, where people say, yeah,
27:55
Speaker 1: I don't. They remember everything except the moment when they
27:58
Speaker 1: committed to crime.
28:00
Speaker 2: I can remember I trimmed three of my eyebrow hairs
28:03
Speaker 2: and a nosehair, and then I blacked out and woke
28:07
Speaker 2: up five minutes later with blood all over me and
28:09
Speaker 2: a dead person in the trunk of my car. I
28:11
Speaker 2: don't know how it happened.
28:12
Speaker 1: I don't know how it happened exactly. Shoot or no shoot.
28:30
Speaker 1: That's kind of the litmus test under stressful situations that
28:34
Speaker 1: police have to learn when to engage a target or not.
28:38
Speaker 1: There's so many factors that go into using what's specifically
28:43
Speaker 1: referred to as deadly force. Police are trained on this
28:47
Speaker 1: as a matter of fact. You have to go to
28:50
Speaker 1: the range several times a year to qualify with your weapon.
28:53
Speaker 1: You're put through testing. They'll take you to a shoot
28:55
Speaker 1: house or maybe a digital shoot house and you're having
28:58
Speaker 1: to make these decisions. This is not a world that
29:03
Speaker 1: Austrom would not have been familiar with, Dave. You know,
29:07
Speaker 1: over all of these years in law enforcement, and of
29:10
Speaker 1: course as an administrator, a mayor of a city, he
29:13
Speaker 1: has to deal with these things because there's incidents involving
29:16
Speaker 1: the police force.
29:17
Speaker 2: Now you mentioned that this just happened in May of
29:22
Speaker 2: twenty twenty four. We're not talking about something that happened
29:24
Speaker 2: ten years ago, you know, Joe. In nineteen ninety four,
29:28
Speaker 2: as a police officer, Jay Austrom shot and killed a man.
29:30
Speaker 2: He was a suicidal man with a gun who pointed
29:32
Speaker 2: it to Jay Austrom's partner. Jay Austrom shot the man
29:35
Speaker 2: and killed him. In two thousand, there was a lawsuit
29:37
Speaker 2: filed by Patrick Wayne Dalby, who was the suspect in
29:40
Speaker 2: the robbery of a clothing store. He filed a suit
29:43
Speaker 2: claiming unnecessary force, claiming that Austrom struck him several times
29:48
Speaker 2: around the back, head, face and i with the rifle
29:51
Speaker 2: and fired two shots, and that by hitting him in
29:54
Speaker 2: the head in the eye caused him to lose his
29:56
Speaker 2: left eye. Well, judge looked at it and said, no,
29:59
Speaker 2: he did exactly what he needed to do. Jay Austrom,
30:01
Speaker 2: not guilty of anything, sent the man to prison. The
30:04
Speaker 2: other case was in two thousand and one, a year later.
30:06
Speaker 2: In this case, it was a domestic dispute where a
30:09
Speaker 2: woman shows up at her sister's house and she says,
30:11
Speaker 2: my husband has been beating me. The sister calls police.
30:14
Speaker 2: My sister just showed up my house husband beating her.
30:16
Speaker 2: He's on his way over here. While on the phone
30:18
Speaker 2: with police, the woman's husband shows up. Jay Austrom is
30:22
Speaker 2: sent out there to protect and serve. Right, he gets
30:25
Speaker 2: out there and the man, Michael Owens, is going kind
30:29
Speaker 2: of nutso and Jay Austroman his partner end up shooting
30:34
Speaker 2: the guy ten times and he dies well. They file
30:37
Speaker 2: a lawsuit against Jay Astroman as a partner, saying they
30:40
Speaker 2: used unnecessary force. Blah blah blah. Anyway, judge ruled on
30:43
Speaker 2: the side of Jay Austrom. So two times he shoots
30:45
Speaker 2: men dead and another time he beats a guy to
30:48
Speaker 2: the point where he loses his eye, and all three
30:49
Speaker 2: times judges ruled on the side of Jay Austrom. Is
30:53
Speaker 2: that what Jay Astrom is used to now doing what
30:55
Speaker 2: he feels is necessary and being backed up by a judge.
30:58
Speaker 2: Did Jay Austram do what he felt was necessary and
31:04
Speaker 2: expects a judge to rule on it on his path?
31:06
Speaker 2: I don't know, but it could be Joe. He could
31:08
Speaker 2: be conditioned to believe that he can get away with this.
31:13
Speaker 1: There's a pattern that's developing here. And I'm not saying
31:16
Speaker 1: that every cop doesn't have a pattern that comes along
31:19
Speaker 1: with them. You develop these behaviors along the way, and
31:24
Speaker 1: these are and what's kind of interesting about this day
31:27
Speaker 1: and it can happen anywhere. Don't get me wrong. These
31:29
Speaker 1: are very small jurisdictions this guy's working in. It's not
31:33
Speaker 1: like you have a vast number of opportunities they're going
31:37
Speaker 1: to present themselves, you know, relative to that. And I
31:40
Speaker 1: don't know if that's necessarily an accurate measure, but when
31:43
Speaker 1: you you know, you think about that, and you think
31:46
Speaker 1: about how small the population is where he's practicing. He
31:49
Speaker 1: was actually practicing as a deputy sheriff in Wyoming, and
31:53
Speaker 1: then he comes to South Dakota and winds up practicing
31:57
Speaker 1: in law enforcement for a number of years. And then
32:00
Speaker 1: that's when he becomes a mayor. You know, he's elected
32:04
Speaker 1: to the mayorship of this town Centerville. Yeah, and he
32:09
Speaker 1: he winds up being charged or sued, I guess is
32:13
Speaker 1: the more accurate term for sexual harassment, which I think
32:18
Speaker 1: that that suit originated with the chief of the police
32:23
Speaker 1: in the town, Rachel.
32:24
Speaker 2: It was a female Rachel Comtman.
32:26
Speaker 1: So I don't you know, we talk a lot about
32:29
Speaker 1: establishment of boundaries in this sort of thing, and that
32:32
Speaker 1: brings us in a way back to those incidences on
32:37
Speaker 1: the night of May the twenty seventh. Are we talking
32:40
Speaker 1: about a person that's just like a ticking time bomb?
32:44
Speaker 1: I don't know. But when he he left that house
32:47
Speaker 1: that night after his wife had told him about what happened,
32:52
Speaker 1: She's not the one that reached out to the cops.
32:57
Speaker 1: She she stayed in the house. Was she fearful? Was
33:01
Speaker 1: was she you know, did she suspect anything? You had
33:06
Speaker 1: stated that that she said, well, he had guns in
33:08
Speaker 1: his car, right, but you know, he wasn't. He wasn't
33:12
Speaker 1: showing up at the house to have a game of
33:15
Speaker 1: patty cake with anybody. He showed up at this house
33:18
Speaker 1: armed with multiple weapon platforms.
33:20
Speaker 2: Dave. They asked her, you know, did he get did
33:23
Speaker 2: he grab a weapon before he left? That was there
33:25
Speaker 2: because she said he left in a rage. And it's
33:28
Speaker 2: obvious question, well, did he like go to the gun cabinet?
33:31
Speaker 2: Was he a gun overbear? And she said no, he
33:33
Speaker 2: just left. He was in a rage and left.
33:36
Speaker 1: Or did he make a comment, you know, I'm going
33:38
Speaker 1: to kill the so and so's, I'm going to do
33:40
Speaker 1: this and that. But if you if you're already armed,
33:43
Speaker 1: and you know, it's interesting because he chose the three
33:47
Speaker 1: weapons involved here are so vastly different. You've got a
33:52
Speaker 1: three eighty pistol, which many people refer to as a
33:56
Speaker 1: pocket pistol. As a matter of fact, our friends that
33:58
Speaker 1: are listening right now, if you'll if you'll just extend
34:01
Speaker 1: the palm of your hand, just for a moment, the
34:03
Speaker 1: palm up. A three eighty in many configurations will literally
34:09
Speaker 1: fit in the palm of your hand. And I'm not
34:11
Speaker 1: talking about putting your finger through the trigger or anything.
34:14
Speaker 1: I'm just talking about, you know, and some people refer
34:17
Speaker 1: to it as a pocket pistol. Some people the old
34:19
Speaker 1: term used to be a belly gun because it's easily concealable,
34:23
Speaker 1: all right, and it fires a point three eight to
34:27
Speaker 1: zero cartridge semi automatic. That means that it doesn't have
34:33
Speaker 1: a wheel, okay for people that are familiar with the revolvers.
34:36
Speaker 1: It's got a little indwelling magazine it can hold, you know,
34:40
Speaker 1: depended upon the platform it can you know, it might
34:43
Speaker 1: hold eight eight rounds okay, or it might hold seven rounds.
34:48
Speaker 1: Then he's got a shotgun, and we don't know the
34:52
Speaker 1: gauge of the shotgun. Presumably it's probably a twelve gauge.
34:56
Speaker 1: That's the most common gauge that's out there. It's what
34:59
Speaker 1: cops are most used to. And then he's got an
35:03
Speaker 1: AR rifle. Now there are many there are many different
35:07
Speaker 1: calibers for ar platforms. You can have the standard five
35:10
Speaker 1: point five six, which I mentioned earlier, but you know
35:12
Speaker 1: they may ar platforms now that have three eights, you know,
35:16
Speaker 1: which is the original M fourteen rounds. So it's it's
35:19
Speaker 1: just the shape of the rifle. But he showed up
35:21
Speaker 1: with all of these platforms, TAVI, and i'm I'm and
35:24
Speaker 1: if you'll permit me. When you work a crime scene
35:30
Speaker 1: and you've got multiple weapon platforms, most of the time
35:33
Speaker 1: you're you're thinking about okay if if in fact, I've
35:40
Speaker 1: got three rounds. Most of the time you're not thinking
35:44
Speaker 1: you've got one shooter, and that it's mind blowing that
35:49
Speaker 1: you show up and you've got three separate types of
35:53
Speaker 1: calibers or gauges that are at the scene. When he
35:57
Speaker 1: was finally arrested, he had spent twelve gage shotgun shells
36:02
Speaker 1: in his pocket, and that was fascinating to me because
36:06
Speaker 1: that demonstrates to me that he has an awareness of
36:09
Speaker 1: what he's done. He's going around and he's picking up
36:13
Speaker 1: spent shell casings. And not only did he have spent
36:18
Speaker 1: shotgun shell casings, he had rifle shell casings spent in
36:23
Speaker 1: his pocket. So that goes you know, they stated, you know,
36:29
Speaker 1: after he had been arrested, that they smelled alcohol on him,
36:32
Speaker 1: and so any defense attorney that's going to try to say, well,
36:36
Speaker 1: he was inebriated beyond the point of understanding what he
36:39
Speaker 1: was doing, well, actually, counselor, it could be argued that
36:45
Speaker 1: he had an awareness to go back and pick up
36:47
Speaker 1: any kind of rounds that were in the hall.
36:48
Speaker 2: Why would a cop do that, Joe?
36:49
Speaker 1: Why would it?
36:50
Speaker 2: Because hey man, he was thinking, yeah, I need to
36:54
Speaker 2: get the evidence because if he kills all of these guys,
36:58
Speaker 2: all three of them die and there are no witness
37:00
Speaker 2: is picking up those shells. He can tell any story
37:03
Speaker 2: he wants to tell.
37:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, you absolutely can, and you're removing The next step
37:08
Speaker 1: you would think probably would be to get rid of
37:11
Speaker 1: the weapons at that point in time. You're going to
37:14
Speaker 1: cut them up, you're going to melt them down, you're
37:15
Speaker 1: going to throw them the river, You're going to do
37:17
Speaker 1: whatever it is that you have to do to put
37:18
Speaker 1: as much distance, because this guy would have had a
37:20
Speaker 1: basic understanding of forensic practice and what we do at
37:23
Speaker 1: the crime scenes. And you know, when you have this
37:28
Speaker 1: kind of event and this is a this is a
37:31
Speaker 1: very I know, I use this term alot. It's a
37:33
Speaker 1: very dynamic, which what I'm saying is a lot of
37:36
Speaker 1: movement is going on. You said, Morgan, that's kind of obvious.
37:39
Speaker 1: You're damn right, it's obvious because you've got a guy
37:41
Speaker 1: that's actively shooting in a small space in a house,
37:47
Speaker 1: and there's three adult males. Now we don't know what
37:50
Speaker 1: their status was. We don't know if they were inebriated,
37:54
Speaker 1: we don't know if they were passed out, sleeping, we
37:57
Speaker 1: don't know if all three of them were aware, and
38:01
Speaker 1: he lined them up against the wall. But here's the problem.
38:06
Speaker 1: He's swapping platforms because we know that one fellow was
38:12
Speaker 1: shot with a shotgun, because the guy that actually called
38:15
Speaker 1: it in stated there was a man shooting a shotgun
38:19
Speaker 1: in the house. He's on the line. This guy actually,
38:22
Speaker 1: as you'd mentioned, actually died Dave as he's on the
38:26
Speaker 1: phone with nine to eleven. And this scene is going
38:31
Speaker 1: to be an absolute mess because I can't imagine that
38:34
Speaker 1: he picked up every single shell casing. And there will
38:38
Speaker 1: be evidence that you can find. There will be trajectories
38:42
Speaker 1: of this rounds that are passing through bodies, passing through walls,
38:47
Speaker 1: and when you see this thing demonstrated in court, which
38:51
Speaker 1: it will be, I'm sure you're going to have all
38:54
Speaker 1: of these trajectory patterns that are running all over the
38:56
Speaker 1: place because these guys are running for their lives. This
39:00
Speaker 1: individual that shows up Astrom, he's targeting each one of them.
39:04
Speaker 1: The question is was he moving or were they moving
39:10
Speaker 1: or were they both moving at the same time, Because
39:13
Speaker 1: you've got multiple possibilities here, and so these trajectories are
39:17
Speaker 1: going to be wild. Most of the time. When you
39:19
Speaker 1: walk into a scene and you've got a single person
39:21
Speaker 1: that's dead and it's as a result of gunfire. You've
39:25
Speaker 1: got one central person that is shooting at the other person,
39:28
Speaker 1: maybe the other person shooting back. But that's it. Now, Mathematically,
39:34
Speaker 1: you've increased the workload here because you've got three individuals.
39:39
Speaker 1: You've got three individuals that are all of their own
39:42
Speaker 1: mind moving about or trying to get distance between themselves,
39:46
Speaker 1: and the sounds of these weapons going off.
39:49
Speaker 2: And it's all inside the house. Yeah, because the fact
39:52
Speaker 2: that we know there's a shotgun, we know there's a rifle,
39:55
Speaker 2: and we know there's the small pistol. Yeah, that you revolver,
39:58
Speaker 2: All right? Did he come in the house with all
40:01
Speaker 2: three of those or did he like shoot the guy
40:04
Speaker 2: with a shotgun and then go back to his car
40:07
Speaker 2: and get another one? Did he did he use these
40:09
Speaker 2: multiple weapons to make it look like something else had
40:12
Speaker 2: transpired besides just one angry man killing three men? Was it?
40:17
Speaker 2: I'm trying to think of in any scenario, one person
40:22
Speaker 2: going in mad, I get it, grabbing the shotgun, I
40:25
Speaker 2: get that, But you know, you go in the house, plam, plam, plam.
40:29
Speaker 2: We got three dead guys. But he's got three dead
40:34
Speaker 2: guys and three different types of weapons.
40:37
Speaker 1: No, isn't that fascinating that he would show up because
40:40
Speaker 1: you know, to deal with it. And we've talked about
40:42
Speaker 1: this in other cases. I know there was one that
40:46
Speaker 1: kind of stands out in my mind where you had
40:50
Speaker 1: an individual that was carrying both a shotgun and then
40:56
Speaker 1: it was actually an AR platform weapon. And in the
41:00
Speaker 1: military they talk a lot about transitioning to weapons because
41:03
Speaker 1: most of the time in the military and in like
41:07
Speaker 1: tactical law enforcement as well, you'll have your primary weapon,
41:10
Speaker 1: which is an MP five or it's an a AR
41:15
Speaker 1: platform type of weapon that you see see individuals carrying
41:20
Speaker 1: same thing in the military that carry M fours, which
41:23
Speaker 1: is essentially an AR and then they have a sidearm,
41:27
Speaker 1: you know, that's in the holster on their hip. Okay, pistol,
41:30
Speaker 1: all right, this guy shows it with three How do
41:33
Speaker 1: you transition between? Oh, I know what it was what
41:35
Speaker 1: I was thinking about. I was thinking about Murdoch because
41:41
Speaker 1: you know, there was alow there was he had a
41:46
Speaker 1: platform that was a rifle platform and there was a
41:49
Speaker 1: shotgun involved in this. And one of the things that
41:51
Speaker 1: people were trying to wrap their mind around, you know,
41:54
Speaker 1: at the kennels and all this sort of thing was
41:56
Speaker 1: him transitioning from one weapon to the other, from one
41:59
Speaker 1: weapon system to the other weapons system, and it's a
42:02
Speaker 1: very bulky undertaking. I think this is an interesting point
42:05
Speaker 1: that you raised, Dave. Does he show up with three
42:09
Speaker 1: weapons because he feels like he needs three weapons, or
42:12
Speaker 1: did he show up with three weapons because he was
42:14
Speaker 1: going to try to make this appear to be something
42:17
Speaker 1: other than it was. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this
42:23
Speaker 1: is body packs.