Latest / Conservation Stories / Navigating Land, Water, and Energy: Legal Insights with Calloway Huffaker

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Navigating Land, Water, and Energy: Legal Insights with Calloway Huffaker · Conservation Stories

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Foreign hello, friends, and welcome back to another episode of Conservation Stories. This is your host, Hilary Timmins Sims. And Conservation Stories is brought to you by the Sand Hill Area Research Association. And today we have with us California Huffaker. Cal is a lawyer and a friend from Tahoka, Texas. Cal, give us a little bit about your background.
• 0:32
  Speaker B: Hello. My name is Callaway Huffaker. If you're from Tahoka, you know me as Cal. If you're from anywhere else, you know me as Callaway. Because growing up, my granddad, a practicing attorney since the 30s, went by Callaway. So I got stuck with the name Cal. And when I went off to school, I started using my full name because that's what was called out in class. And so if you call me Cal, I know where you're from. I've been practicing law in Tahoka since 1988. My granddad started practicing there in the 30s. My uncles John and Gerald were both practicing attorneys. Gerald there in Tahoka, John, being an attorney in Amarillo for most of his career, ended up moving on to become general counsel at Texas Tech for a good while. And, and so most people know him, but I've been there in Tahoka practicing and farming and ranching since 88.
• 1:37
  Speaker A: Yeah, I've always, I've always heard of your law firm.
• 1:41
  Speaker B: Yes, ma'am.
• 1:42
  Speaker A: I mean, I don't ever remember not, I guess, being growing up in Brownfield. Yes, ma'am, right next door. So I know you've and, and as Sims Land Services.
• 1:52
  Speaker B: Yeah, I know your, your husband Doug. And Doug and I have been through.
• 1:56
  Speaker A: Many trials and tribulations of the oil and gas game.
• 2:01
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 2:01
  Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Well, I wanted to have you on. We visited yesterday a little bit about what to talk about, and I really would like for us to start with discussing just land leases, you know, and then you mentioned us some things and we'll roll into some things that you're seeing that are changing with some farmers and ranchers in, in your area. But I think, you know, as people are looking at wind and solar, you know, and not just traditional oil and gas leases, you're also looking at CO2 storage, and all kinds of things are changing. And then the question about now who owns the produced water and all those kind of things, there's a. It seems like it's getting a lot more complex. I remember it's probably about five or six years ago, the first time I saw a deed that said that they were selling the sun that shines down on it and the wind that blows across it, you know, and I was like, we now have two other things, two other sticks in our bundle of sticks, as they say on land ownership.
• 3:01
  Speaker B: You know, that's very, very true. You know, in law school they teach you about the bundle of sticks. And that bundle of sticks is kind of what rights you have as a landowner. And each one of those sticks represent one of those rights. And a lot of what we do in Tahoka and our other offices is that we deal with what those rights mean. And how do you handle those? As a landowner, which is majority of our clients, we, we help them through the process of, of leasing, purchasing, selling all the different things that you do. But a lot of my practice has been into oil, gas and renewables. And you know, when you say renewables, that's changing daily. Uh, it's just amazing how much change has happened in the last 10, 15 years.
• 3:57
  Speaker A: Well, and that not surprising too, because I, you know, even the solar, the solar panels and things that we see now, I keep saying, I just, you know, this is, that's just the beginning of that technology. I mean, all of those things are going to change, you know, and advance in oil and gas. My goodness. They're saying, you know, expecting to be able to produce five times as much within the next like 10 years. You know, so it's changing quickly.
• 4:21
  Speaker B: We're seeing a lot of change in our office just because of the things that are advancing technology wise. And you know, we're taking flared gas and doing different things with it, creating different power methods, utilizing that within in the oil field, utilizing it on site. And then one of the big things that we're seeing and a lot of what we're doing is battery storage. And battery storage is changing. Just.
• 4:55
  Speaker A: Yeah, that, I mean, to me that's the biggest drawback to a renewable energy has been battery storage. What are you seeing there? I mean, is it improving?
• 5:04
  Speaker B: Well, we're seeing a lot of activity of these companies reaching out to landowners, wanting to discuss putting a battery on their, on their property. The, the, the method of which they're doing it is changing just daily. You know, when, when I first started practicing, we were dealing with oil and gas, and then we started dealing with wind and then now solar and then battery. And now we're talking all different things, including that, you know, produced water is a big topic and I've heard one of your speakers on your podcast talk about that and believe it or not, it's being discussed here in West Texas. I have not had any luck getting oil and gas company to agree yet to paying for anything that's extracted from that produced water. But we're asking in nearly every single opportunity that we have.
• 6:07
  Speaker A: Interesting. Yeah, that and that, that. So tell us a little bit about that court case that that came up. I think it was 23, you know, where there was this, because really, truly owners have never thought about the water before.
• 6:20
  Speaker B: Question, I believe, and I think I know what you're talking about was that who owns the, the, the produced water? And the question was if, if there is a valuable constituent of that water, who's. Whose is it? I think what we're, we're seeing now and what we're, we're discussing is that if I as the landowner have something that you extract from my property via that, that lease, then it is a and it turns to value, then it's ours. You owe me a royalty on it. Where you see that product historically being wasted, then that's where the conundrum starts. And how do you handle that? And I think that case tells us that we need to start paperworking that in a better method. And so we are inserting a paragraph into our lease that says, you know, if there is any other valuable constituent of anything that you withdraw from our property, you owe us the same royalty on it.
• 7:34
  Speaker A: And this is why it's so, it's so important for landowners to make really wise and informed decisions before they sign those contracts. You know, and I have people say, well, oh, it's, you know, so and so, you know, now they're stuck with X, Y and Z. And of course, I think I have probably a different level of knowledge about it since my husband and I own a business that deals in this, you know, so I, I, but how do we educate landowners to be really aware, like take that contract to a lawyer. We, we, as you know, representing an oil company, we're always telling people, go to a lawyer. And I know the seller companies that we have worked with have said, if you aren't going to take it to a lawyer, we really don't probably aren't going to want to work with you and we will pay your legal fees if you'll take it because they don't want a mess either.
• 8:28
  Speaker B: I think people need to stop and think a minute about what they, they perceive themselves to be as a landowner. Yes, there's so many people out here that are not actually physically owning the dirt, but they own a royalty interest, they own a mineral interest or whatever, and they need to understand that that is, is, is the same piece of that dirt as, as anybody Else.
• 8:56
  Speaker A: Well, and it trumps dirt.
• 8:57
  Speaker B: It does.
• 8:58
  Speaker A: It does. And that Texas, unfortunately, it does it really.
• 9:00
  Speaker B: Which causes some heartache.
• 9:02
  Speaker A: It causes. I can tell you I've been out to, you know, several pieces of property where the, you know, surface is just. It's the worst of the worst situation, you know, starting back probably 60 years ago, you know, because here's a guy who owns the surface but didn't know a single well on that property. And they are everywhere, and they have.
• 9:22
  Speaker B: The right to put the roads where they want to unless it's in that contract. And that contract is so important.
• 9:28
  Speaker A: That's exactly right.
• 9:29
  Speaker B: And so you. You have to. To understand your position when you go in that when you give a piece of that or the one of those sticks away out of that bundle, you're giving up some rights. And so you've got to. To make sure that when you're giving up that right that you're. You're fully understanding what you're doing.
• 9:46
  Speaker A: Right. And, and what I've. We've encountered so often is, you know, solar companies will either come to us late because they didn't know they had to think about minerals, or they come to us at the beginning and they're like, well, we don't want to pay to have this done. It doesn't. It shouldn't matter.
• 10:04
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 10:04
  Speaker A: And then they get to the end and they go, oh, my gosh. Yeah.
• 10:07
  Speaker B: Well, we've seen a huge, huge shift in. In the solar leases since we started 18 years ago. Those leases were coming in. They were just leasing the surface, not. Not really having a lot of concern about the mineral development. And because of Texas laws, minerals are king. And so over that time period, we've seen a huge shift in the. In the mineral usage and the solar usage. And those contracts have started addressing that. And so it's been interest. It's very challenging and changing day by day.
• 10:48
  Speaker A: So let's back up just a little bit. For people that have no context, when we talk about that bundle of sticks, tell us what. In Texas, what's. What are those sticks? So we're talking about each stick stands for an ownership, right?
• 11:03
  Speaker B: Well, yes, you know, when you own a piece of property, they say you own it in fee. Okay. And when you own a piece of property in fee, then. Then you start saying, okay, what does that consist of? Okay, it consists of I have the right to. To rent the property, I have a right to sell the property. I have a right to lease different portions of it. I have a right to lease the minerals. I have a right to now lease the, the sun that's fallen upon it. I have a right to do all these different things. And you know, historically we were always looking at basically a two layer cake, surface and minerals. And now it's, it's surface minerals and the, the wind above it, the solar radiation above it. And now we're even adding a different one. What do we do with the water? And the water is becoming more and more important and how do we handle that? And so really we've got a multi layer cake and all of those layers have different sticks that apply to it.
• 12:08
  Speaker A: Yeah. And so you can sell off, literally, you know, an owner and then, and this is why you were saying so many people that own these, the minerals underneath the surface, they don't live here because their great, great fourth grade or fifth great grandfather sold, they bought the land, they sold the minerals.
• 12:27
  Speaker B: Yeah. One of my clients I talked to yesterday's in Belize and they own minerals in, in Yoakum and Gaines County. And so it's kind of interesting that, you know, you deal with all these people.
• 12:38
  Speaker A: Yes, absolutely.
• 12:39
  Speaker B: They're absentee landowners and they inherited it. And quite often I'll get the call and say oil companies contacted me, solar companies contacted me and I didn't know that I owned it.
• 12:50
  Speaker A: Absolutely.
• 12:51
  Speaker B: So kind of scary that they don't know that they own it. But it's, it's, it's a fact of what we deal with.
• 12:57
  Speaker A: Right. And that leads, you know, to the discussion that I've heard of. We have so many orphaned wells and part of the reason, you know, you have to figure out who owns what, who's responsible for this well. And that goes back to, you know, doing that research.
• 13:12
  Speaker B: Yeah, we do a lot of title research and clearing title and those kinds of things. Getting, getting those issues straightened out. So you as a, as a owner of those minerals or whatever it is, you can receive your check because they're not going to pay you until you have clear title. And it's going to sit there forever until you get somebody to do it. And it's not something that most lay people can handle.
• 13:39
  Speaker A: Right. And when we say forever, we mean forever. I've seen money that's sitting in a fund in a courthouse since the 30s.
• 13:45
  Speaker B: Yeah, well, and I'd encourage your listeners to all of them to go look at the money this minus cheated to this state and see if your name's on the list because you'd be surprised how many names. Names are there.
• 13:57
  Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. And I think you can just search how Would, what words would you use to search for that, for people that might be interested?
• 14:04
  Speaker B: You know, I couldn't right off top of my head.
• 14:07
  Speaker A: But there's, there's, it's there somewhere. And I don't know how exactly I might be thinking about that, how people might, and we could, I may find a place and see if we can put a link up so in the, in the show notes, because I mean, like, I know for a fact, like in this case, this, this woman was an heiress basically in New York and it was an investment her dad made in the 30s. And now, you know, I could not get in touch with her. I mean, I figured out who it goes to, but you couldn't get in touch with them in any way, you know. And so there are people in California, in New York and Washington state and all over that you call. And of course it's really nice. This is, to me the fun part, you know, is when you get to call someone and say, oh, hey, do you know that you have some money now? I have had one lady say, I don't believe in oil and gas. And I said, well, we would love to sell that to someone who does believe in energy. Of course she eventually take the check when she heard how much it was going to be. So it's valuable. Those, those minerals are valuable. And I think, as you may, I don't know what you think about this, but as technology changes, I think we're going to be seeing them coming back to, or going into areas where they can extract oil that they've never been able to extract. Yeah.
• 15:23
  Speaker B: Yeah. The horizontal drilling capacity of these companies are just expanding daily.
• 15:30
  Speaker A: Daily.
• 15:30
  Speaker B: And, and it's, it's opening up new and new areas all the time.
• 15:35
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 15:36
  Speaker B: In fact, we had a lady in yesterday that we were dealing with on, on a oil and gas lease that had, had basically been abandoned years ago and because there was no further need in a vertical play. And so they went back in, leased it and they've laid in a horizontal line across her tract and the neighbor's tract and she probably won't have to work again.
• 16:02
  Speaker A: That's so fun. You know, a family story. My mom has interest in a well and my nephew is now a petroleum engineer and just so happens that he's the one that is now working, working on that well to improve, to improve it. And so that's pretty fun. Exciting to.
• 16:19
  Speaker B: You know, there's so many things changing out in the, in the country right now. It's just amazing. And you know, we talked a little bit about the changes in, in the cultural practices and what we're seeing there. And I know you've. You've touched on a lot of that. And it's, it's just. Our office is just inundated with updates and new things coming in just all the time. It's just, it's. It's fun time to be practicing, you know, that is.
• 16:47
  Speaker A: And that's so encouraging for me to hear, because sometimes I will just hear the negative, you know, or. And that's why we try to get people on here that are, you know, thinking about ideas. And I'm trying to constantly, you know, get myself in front of and talk to people who are thinking differently, because I can feel like we are a gritty, determined people, but for every strength, there's a coordinating weakness, and we can also be stubborn and unchanging.
• 17:15
  Speaker B: That's true.
• 17:15
  Speaker A: You know, and so I was excited. Let's talk a little bit about what some of those things that you're seeing more into the ag side of things.
• 17:25
  Speaker B: Well, besides the changes in the oil and gas and solar and wind and everything, we're seeing huge leaps and bounds and in the way we're handling things as landowners in rural Texas, especially our part of Texas, and I say our part, our practices from Amarillo over to, you know, Wichita Falls, Midland down to. We've got case in McAllen and we've got cases and, you know, just about everywhere, but mostly west Texas. And so a lot of the things start with. We are looking at differences in, and what a standard lease contract is as far as a landlord tenant. We're seeing changes in the methods of which people are farming. We're seeing changes in the methods of which, you know, they're utilizing the land, be it the water, the soil, the, the. Whether it's row crop, livestock, whatever. I mean, across the board, things are changing, and not just a little. They're changing leaps and bounds.
• 18:37
  Speaker A: That. I love to hear that, though. I love, I love that because, you know, that, that, that tells me, hey, we're going to, we're going to roll with this. We're going to figure it out. And, you know, it's debatable whether we'll have water in 30 years, you know, what kind of water we'll have. And, but we. That tells me we will still have people that are here that are living on the land to some. Whatever degree that is, you know, and so much of our culture's changed, you know.
• 19:06
  Speaker B: Well, during my lifetime, I've seen a huge exodus from farm and rural Living to more urban. We're seeing a reversal of that now. People are moving, moving out of the more urban areas, especially in our area around Lubbock. And they're wanting 5 acres, 10 acres, you know, exactly. Et cetera. And, and they're moving out in the country. And, and a lot of times those people don't understand things that, that they're getting themselves into. But it's also providing a huge opportunity for other people that have been here and stuck it out. Exactly, you know, exactly. I've got one grand grower that is, is supplementing their income by catering to these other individuals that are buying these five and ten acre blocks. And, and he's kind of created a niche for himself taking care of those type of people.
• 20:02
  Speaker A: Well, and you know, that's, that's interesting because I was in Poland not long ago and you know, there you fly into like Warsaw, you look, you look over, you know, our area, you look down, you see 1 mile squares and with a circle in the middle as far as you can see. This looks like a patchwork quilt. The average acre is 20. And I mean it is a long skinny 20 acres, you know, or a perfect triangle 20 or rectangle of 20 acres or square, you know, I mean, just like it's all kinds of things, you know, and so many of those farmers, their land is made up of multiple. But that means they have so many different landowners that they're dealing with, you know, and their frustration is that, you know, that the, that those owners are sharing in that EU subsidy. They get a huge amount of subsidies. Huge. Like, so the city, that's the country, Poland, gives the equivalent of 30% in their taxes to the EU and in return gets equivalent of 70% back in subsidies. So those farmers, their equipment's being, half of it's being paid subsidized by the eu. You know, land purchases all mean all kinds of things, you know. So I was talking to one of the, he was a former, what we would think of as likely, maybe the Secretary of agriculture, and he had just lost his seat because that party has moved out of power. But he, I was asking him, he's very conservative. I said, my goodness, like, because every country, when they came into the eu, they negotiated what those subsidies would be, what their, you know, what they would get back. And I was like, I don't know who negotiated for you, but wow. And he said, not enough, not enough. Well, that's pretty funny from a conservative.
• 21:45
  Speaker B: Yeah, well, you know, when, when you look at what we're doing here in West Texas things are. It's. It's a good time to be involved because you're seeing so many changes. And it's everything from the energy side side to the production side to the landlord tenant side. There's, there's nothing that you can say this is the way we do it anymore.
• 22:10
  Speaker A: Wow. I mean, so can you give us, give us an example on the farming side?
• 22:14
  Speaker B: Well, I tell you, one of the things that we're seeing a big change in. Historically, when I started practicing law, it was quarter and thirds. You know, you got a quarter of the cotton crop and a third of any grain crop.
• 22:27
  Speaker A: Right. So the landlord gets.
• 22:28
  Speaker B: Everybody was shaking hands and going on down the road.
• 22:32
  Speaker A: The landowner gets some and the farmer gets some.
• 22:34
  Speaker B: Yeah, Land landowners got a quarter of the cotton and a third of the, of any grain or anything else that's, that's out the window. Now today we're, we're doing contracts that are all over the board. And I think it's a sign of our times, you know, Ag is. Is in a depressed state. Right. And they're struggling and they're really having a hard time. And so these, these tenants are going back to their landlords, and the landlords understand that if they want a quality tenant, they're going to have to work with them. And in our area, West Texas, the average age of our farmers are just increasing by the day. And so these young farmers that are coming in are changing the landscape. You know, they're trying new methods, they're trying new production of all kinds. And so one of the things that we're seeing is the, the landlord having.
• 23:31
  Speaker A: Well, I'm, I'm glad to hear that. That, you know, because a lot of times it's hard. Well, you know, maybe that is a sign too, that the age of the landlord is also changing. And maybe that instead of, you know, it's passed down, that land that was in the generation before me is now into the hands of people in my generation. And maybe they are a little more aware or maybe they don't need the money as much, you know, or they want to keep it in the family, but they're not as. Maybe they're. I don't know, it's just, you know, a different mentality.
• 24:03
  Speaker B: Maybe, you know, typically what we see is, is husband passes away. That was farming. His wife owns it, then she passes away, then her kids on it. And we find that our kids typically are not in agriculture. They're living in Dallas, Houston, Phoenix, wherever they're at, and then they start passing away. And then all of a sudden we've got landlords that have no tie whatsoever to the dirt. And so then we're seeing those individuals start selling, consolidating different things. And those landlords have a different mindset than what mom, dad and grandparents had. And so it's changing. And they are more willing to sell, they're more willing to see what other alternatives they can look at. And quite often we're seeing a lot of these 10 tenants go to these people and say, I cannot make it in a quarter rent. And that's typically, you know, what we see. And they're coming back saying, okay, I need you to either concede on the percentage, I need you to concede on what you would be willing to help cover those kinds of things. And so used to Maybe we paid 25% of the burned down chemical or something. Now it's, it's all across the board. There is no usual and customary farm lease anymore. I mean every one of them is different. That's so and so we see everything from, you know, utilization of cattle on the property or other livestock and how are we going to handle that? What portion of inputs am I going to help cover? Burned down chemical was kind of where it started. Then we started talking about, you know, upkeep and maintenance on, on the pivots. Then, then we have gone from there to, you know, you'll pay a fourth of the fertilizer, a fourth of the, the chemicals that we use, a fourth of the, the jenning, you know, a fourth of, you know, I've got a burn stick machine on my stripper now or I, I'm running a stripper baler and you're going to pick up the wrapping or whatever. I mean it's just all over the board. There is no consistent lease that we see in our office anymore.
• 26:39
  Speaker A: Well, you know, we've been on both sides of this. We've been the farmer and we've been the tenant, you know, and I think that we have a fabulous tenant. And in fact we, we've done better farming as tenant, as a landowners than we ever were first, you know, and I know what it's like to, to, I mean we just, we have so much appreciation and value for him because he's doing a lot of those things, you know, he was a forerunner and you know, we now are like, we really on a third, you know, we only have water for a third of a quarter, you know, and so but he's, he's realistic but also extremely creative and thoughtful and you know, just you know, just lack of, you know, not having to pay for as much, you know, nitrogen as all these other people are having to pay for. I mean, he's brought in cattle, and he's just done some great things, you know, and so I'm. I'm glad to hear that there are more people doing that.
• 27:35
  Speaker B: Yeah, we have. You know, I think landlords are understanding that, that this is a finite resource that we're utilizing, and if you don't take care of it, then it's not going to be there. And so they. They're getting more and more attuned to the tenant, saying, I'm going to. I'm going to fallow a third of your property this year. And they're okay with that, you know, and that might be the concession that that landlord makes. It may be something else. You know, you never can tell. But we're seeing more and more alternative uses to the property, and it's changing just the same as our farming methods have changed. I was telling you yesterday, we've got a group of farmers together that are basically farming cooperatively now, and it is amazing to see what they're doing. And I think this will be their third year. Every one of them is telling me, I like it. It works. We're learning as we go and we're tweaking it, but it's working. So I don't know where we're going, where we're going to end up. But AG in West Texas is on the move and changing by the minute. And it's interesting to be able to sit and watch and help people do those kinds of.
• 29:13
  Speaker A: Out here on the Texas plains, water is everything. And there's a resource that's as vital as it is fragile. Our Playa Lakes. These lakes are nature's reservoir, catching rainwater to recharge our aquifer and provide lifelines for wildlife. But now they need our help. In collaboration with the Texas Playa Lakes Conservation Initiative and the Cargill Global Water Challenge, Sarah has started the Our Legacy Is Tomorrow's Water initiative to inspire and work with landowners to restore and protect our Playa Lakes. Each Playa we save helps secure a sustainable water future for the generations that will be coming after us. Whether it's improving soil health, restoring habitats, or recharging groundwater, we are committed to making a difference. Together, we can build a legacy that we can all be proud of. To learn how you can join in, visit the Playa Lakes Restoration Initiative page on the SARAH website. Let's keep Texas water flowing strong for the future. Visit sara-conservation.com calm. So to. To tell you how much I think that culture's changed around that, I'm reminded about when we. The first year we all grew peanuts and nobody had, you know, peanut equipment. So we're going to share peanut equipment. And we had one processor, you know, so we're all taking it to this one place to dry the peanuts. And of course, when the peanuts were ready, like a lot of people's peanuts were ready at the same time, but we didn't have all the harvesting equipment. And I remember somebody showing up with a gun. I'm next. I don't care where I'm in line, I'm next, you know, and so I think the difference, though is probably they have. They are. Their contracts are being set up differently. So when you're talking about cooperative, these people weren't cooperative. You know, it was like, you are hurting my yields on my farm. But when you're talking about farming more in a cooperative fashion, then people are, you know, when you're succeeding, I'm succeeding.
• 31:23
  Speaker B: Yeah. These guys came to us saying, you know, we've. We realized that, and I don't mind using their name. John Deere is. Is directing where we're going.
• 31:37
  Speaker A: Absolutely.
• 31:37
  Speaker B: And they are phasing out the equipment that we have, we can't afford with the acres that I have to go buy a stripper baler. And that's kind of what got the impetus started. From that point on, they started saying, well, I also don't have enough money to buy a new planter or the biggest spray equipment and those kinds of things. And so that discussion kind of culminated in this group of guys going together. And they are each independent, but they have formed an entity, an llc. And that LLC takes all of their equipment, all of their money on their individual basis and collectively uses it to farm all of their land. And then at the end of the year, profit or loss is divided by the acre. It's not divided by irrigated ground dry land or anything. It is strictly divided by the acre. And they've let their hands go. They're doing it all themselves. And, you know, they're all three to 5,000 acre guys. And. And, you know, the five of them collectively can take advantage of buying equipment and utilizing it, but also, like, you.
• 33:02
  Speaker A: Also are mitigating risk, too, because you're. Yeah, because you're thinking about, like, if I get. If I get held out, you know, and then the other four guys don't get held out, you're still gonna, you know, make some Money. Right. I mean, everybody's bottom line is going to be hit.
• 33:17
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 33:17
  Speaker A: You know what I mean? You know, but at the same time, it just, it just makes it possible to continue.
• 33:25
  Speaker B: Yeah. You know, I'm going to tell you, it's very much like a marriage. You better.
• 33:30
  Speaker A: Yes, you better, Digger. Yeah.
• 33:32
  Speaker B: And you've got to be able to work together to, you know, make decisions and that kind of thing. They have, they've appointed one of the guys to make overall decisions for the group collectively, and then they meet once a week over a cup of coffee and talk about it and, and I'm not going to tell you that everything has been. But it's, it's for the most part working. They're happy. It's. It's a change in the method of which they're operating and I don't know where it's headed, but each year it's interesting to sit down and talk with them and make the changes that they need.
• 34:12
  Speaker A: I think that is, it's just to have somebody that's willing to, to do that is, is pretty amazing.
• 34:19
  Speaker B: Yeah, well, you know, good, bad or otherwise, like I was telling everybody before you got here, I'm. I'm kind of a dying breed. I am one of the last, what I consider country lawyers.
• 34:32
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 34:32
  Speaker B: And I also farm and ranch. And so I know, I know the ins and outs of that end of it. And when they come in, I can talk to them on their level about what they're.
• 34:43
  Speaker A: Exactly.
• 34:44
  Speaker B: So, yeah, when they came in and started talking about, you know, we've got a stripper baler that we've got on order, but we've all got strippers and, and builders and buggies that we're wanting to, just to deal with that, that, that has to be changed. And so it was, it was interesting. It was fun. It's an experiment for them and me because we've, we've started drafting documents that, that, you know, you don't go to a form book and find one of a kind.
• 35:17
  Speaker A: Yeah, one of a kind.
• 35:18
  Speaker B: It's kind of interesting. It's fun.
• 35:19
  Speaker A: Yeah. So you're not going to go to chat GDP and say, hey, no, no, you can't do that. Wow, that's, that is so encouraging. I just, I. And that, and that's what. I think that's who we were. That's, that's what's in our. Somewhere back in our DNA, you know, And I always say, I feel like so much of our culture changed in the late 80s and early 90s, you know, just a lot of I. And it's debatable, this is just my opinion, but I think a lot of it, you know, coincided with the genetically modified. You know, just. It changed the way we were able to farm, you know, and in that efficiency brought about different need of management, you know, and it kind of just, it changed. That's what I think a lot of the guys that are now farming, that's what they grew up seeing, you know, and they didn't really see what maybe I saw my grandparents do. I mean, my grandmother, in fact, funny story, my first time that my, my older brother, his first farm, he leased from my grandmother's best friend. And it was a quarter. Right. Or not even a quarter right down the road. And my brother went out to check on his crop one summer and she was out there hoeing his field.
• 36:34
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 36:35
  Speaker A: You know, so I mean, we just.
• 36:38
  Speaker B: That makes you feel good.
• 36:39
  Speaker A: Yeah, I know, right? Exactly.
• 36:42
  Speaker B: Yeah. I don't know if I'm going to rent this place again. Well, you know, that's, that's been a big change because our grandparents, their fields were clean and I mean clean.
• 36:55
  Speaker A: And they didn't have time.
• 36:58
  Speaker B: They didn't. And you know, it's, it because of changes in chemical application, changes in labor, changes in a lot of things. It's okay to have a weed in the field now. And.
• 37:12
  Speaker A: Well, now we're finding that there's some benefits to of course, having a more diversity in the field.
• 37:18
  Speaker B: Yeah. And we're, we're seeing so many of our growers go, you know, where they're not using any chemical at all. Not any, any. Anything. And it, it causes a conflict, it does between neighbors. It causes, you know, I'm using some chemical that you don't want on your property. How do I draw that line between my turn row and yours? Yeah. And then now we've started seeding as, you know, a lot of grape growers. There's a huge, huge argument going on right now between, you know, my usage and yours. You know, it's different. And, and now because of the proliferation of dicamba in the, in the area, it's become more and more difficult to pinpoint where that came from. Was it you my neighbor, or was it.
• 38:15
  Speaker A: You can't.
• 38:16
  Speaker B: Two or three neighbors down the road?
• 38:18
  Speaker A: Well, they. All right. I mean, and that's a problem. Is that it, you know, be. And I know. I mean this is a whole, I don't know, not even a rabbit shell, maybe a rattlesnakes nest, you know, because it is so it is. I don't.
• 38:32
  Speaker B: It's a bunny trail. For sure.
• 38:33
  Speaker A: It is. And I, you know, I've done a lot of research. Course, my family is in the grape industry, you know, and so, I mean, I've. I've looked at. I've seen it. I mean, I see that damage, and I also see. I've seen the. The hit list, you know, in the county that I grew up in, they've created a hit list, you know, and my family's on this hit list, like, what can we do to harm these people? You know, And. And. And so I don't think what. What has not been looked at is this social ramifications of everything that we do has a consequence, and we have got to figure out how to make way for each other, you know, and.
• 39:09
  Speaker B: Most definitely.
• 39:09
  Speaker A: Yeah. And I mean, I think people also know dicamba's becoming less and less effective. You know, the weeds have evolved and. And the crepe industry actually has been more. More hurt by their own, you know, the wineries not purchasing, you know, my grip. My parents didn't even. They couldn't even harvest this year. And so I know a lot of grape growers this next year thinking, what do I do? Do I even invest the money in it? Because the wineries are cutting back so much, you know, so.
• 39:37
  Speaker B: Well, you know, we've. We've historically had conflicts between different cultural practices, but now we're seeing that growing more and more. And, you know, I've. I've represented growers, I've represented landowners that have. Have got drift. I've had clients come in, said I drifted on. On, so. And so I need to get something worked out with them, but I want to make sure that when I do that, it's fair to them and fair to me, that kind of thing.
• 40:09
  Speaker A: And I appreciate people that are like that. I think that is the vast majority of people. But you do have some folks that are just. Well, when things are tough, people react in ways under pressure that they might not normally act.
• 40:24
  Speaker B: I've got one case right now down in Scurry county, where it's a drift of chemical onto a neighbor and it's in pasture. And the client is. Is very adamant that his purpose and use of that property was for recreational use. And then the neighbor doing what.
• 40:50
  Speaker A: What they need to do, ranchers do.
• 40:52
  Speaker B: Is try to control the brush. Well, in his, you know, controlling his brush, he is now drifted on with. With little or no concern onto our client, which, you know, which probably different purpose of the land and how do you. How do you reconcile that? I don't know. You know, our system has a method to do it, but, you know, you question quite often. Yes, you know, how, how, how is this going to relate to our practices going forward? You know, and so a lot of what we do, we agree or disagree with, but we're hired to do a certain thing, and that's what we do. But because I've been on both sides of that fence, I know. I know the ins and outs of it, and it gives us an advantage. But, you know, when you're talking about conflict between neighbors, it's all encompassing.
• 41:50
  Speaker A: Oh, yeah. And sometimes it's brother against brother. I mean, it is one brother's farming one way and across the county road, his brother's farming another way. And, you know, and that's. I mean, I know for sure. I mean, that is an exact story that I know. And, you know, one brother sprayed the other, lost his cotton, you know, and of course, it brings about this whole, like, you've got to be talking to your neighbors, like, what are you doing?
• 42:12
  Speaker B: Well, it's an unfortunate position that we're in, but it's, It's a reality. And so we're having to deal with those kinds of things. But, you know, it's interesting because of my position that I get to deal with those kinds of things and we get to see a lot of it. And it's. It's a change that is going on within our communities and our society as a whole that we're having to deal with. And I don't think we've got a handle on it yet.
• 42:37
  Speaker A: No, I think that's true. I do think that, I mean, I think, you know, part of, as farmers are trying to economize, I do think that there are a lot of people that are looking for, you know, varieties of cotton that aren't going to be, you know, genetically modified to take those chemicals because that's expensive, you know. And so I know people are trying to economize, especially after this year. I mean, it's just, I know before the. I don't know, I can't remember what this bill that they passed that's going to, you know, give us some subsidies, some boost to farmer economics. They were anticipating 30% of US farmers to. To be going out of farming this year.
• 43:16
  Speaker B: Yeah, we're anticipating some. Some failures this year in our area. But, you know, the overall idea, I think, is that we as people in agriculture have to learn how to deal with the technology changes that we're Seeing, but also be good stewards and friends and neighbors and, you know, I don't know that we're always in that position because unfortunately, economics drives a lot of our decision process. And when a person's in a corner, they do things that they normally wouldn't do. And we see a lot of that. And so good, bad or otherwise, economics is driving a large majority of it. I think overall, we in agriculture are better equipped because of our upbringing and our roots, that we understand that, you know, you know, doing to others as they would do and you. And, and that's, that's very prevalent still. But there are those occasions that we do get involved.
• 44:28
  Speaker A: Yeah, well, I, I think I've really enjoyed this. I hope you'll come back. Would you do it?
• 44:35
  Speaker B: I probably covered way too many.
• 44:39
  Speaker A: No, I, like, this has been really encouraging to me and I think also want, you know, I want us to be able to be a place where people can go and you know, know that, hey, I've got a question. I wonder if it's been covered in that podcast, you know, and I want them also to know who to go to, you know, I mean it. We're, we are. I feel like, you know, one of our goals is just to make people aware of other people, you know, that we aren't, that we aren't the answer. But we can send you to someone who is the answer, you know what I mean? And connect you. Because, I mean, I was visiting with someone yesterday about how many people have never heard of the extension service, you know, something that is just front and center of my whole childhood and, you know, was the huge resource, huge resource, you know, and now people don't know. I do think it's coming back around, you know, but, you know, that's what we, we see is, you know, we were discussing before we started a community calendar, trying to put together a community calendar in a way that it's a one stop shop where you can go. If you live in Terry county, you can go and you can find all your dates for everything for fsa, but also all the events that are happening and every water meeting that's happening in the region and Farm Bureau and whatever's happening, you know, so that people can really become more aware of ways that they can be involved in changes that are happening. Very much.
• 46:02
  Speaker B: Very much so. Well, if you'll invite me back, we'll target specific topics. Okay.
• 46:09
  Speaker A: Okay. So this is a, this is an invite back.
• 46:12
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 46:12
  Speaker A: So thank you.
• 46:13
  Speaker B: Fair enough. Thank you.
• 46:14
  Speaker A: Thank you, Cal or Callaway, whoever, however you you go by, so I know.
• 46:18
  Speaker B: Where you're from if you call me Cal or if you call me Callaway.
• 46:22
  Speaker A: Well, friends, thanks for tuning in again to this episode of Conservation Stories. We are grateful for you, and if you have found the information that we are providing informative and valuable to you, I hope that you will take the time to rate us and maybe share a podcast that's the same as making a financial contribution to us because it puts us out there and our listenership is growing all the time, and especially we had a huge jump in December, and we hope that you will be part of sharing this along with the work that we're doing on our social media and all the other platforms. So thank you Cal, and thank you listeners.
• 47:02
  Speaker B: Appreciate it.