Latest / SHULCHAN ARUCH YOMI: Own the Halacha in 25 minutes a day! / Yoreh De’ah 169:20-27. Interest: Lending Between Two Jews and a Non-Jew, Purchasing Loans. p1

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Yoreh De’ah 169:20-27. Interest: Lending Between Two Jews and a Non-Jew, Purchasing Loans. p1 · SHULCHAN ARUCH YOMI: Own the Halacha in 25 minutes a day!

• 0:01
  OK, good morning. We're continuing Rebus Kuf
• 0:04
  Samajhtet with Seif Kuf Kuf. Now I'm just going to do a quick
• 0:12
  recap the two main points with it's going to come up again
• 0:14
  today. I mean really that's the theme
• 0:16
  of these two, this entire one or two simonym Kuf Samajhtet again,
• 0:24
  just a reminder. So a Shaliak who's Jewish, he
• 0:27
  could be the agent, he could be the Shuliac for the any loan
• 0:34
  with Ribis between a goy and a non Jew, but he can't have any a
• 0:39
  Jew and non Jew, but he can't have any integral part of the
• 0:44
  halva, the loan itself. He can't be responsible for it.
• 0:48
  He can just be like an extension of the Jew, not really an
• 0:52
  extension of the goy usually because we say Angelikos Laako.
• 0:57
  So again, it must be the loan clearly must be a loan directly
• 1:03
  there between the Jew and the non Jew.
• 1:06
  The middle, the middle Jew can't really be involved in the loan
• 1:09
  itself, right? You can.
• 1:11
  It could be what's it called like a Courier service, a
• 1:15
  delivery service. But you can't be where he's
• 1:19
  doing. He's part of it and he's
• 1:21
  responsible for it. And both conceptually and
• 1:26
  technically, I'm going to see that part again, both
• 1:28
  conceptually and technically. And it's important that whenever
• 1:34
  the whenever there's a loan, the whole purpose has to be for the
• 1:40
  non Jew and the Jew. It can never be for the purpose
• 1:44
  of the Jew to Jew. If the whole thing is really a
• 1:48
  loan between two Jews and you throw in Nagoya to try and save
• 1:53
  you, that's not going to work. The purpose has to be for the
• 1:56
  non Jew and the Jews. So we're going to see that
• 1:58
  inside cough mashkun Oshal yissell be our goy.
• 2:04
  So the goy is the malva and he's holding on to a mashkun from a
• 2:10
  Yisrael who's borrowing Mukhtar lahavas Allah Yisrael, the
• 2:15
  Rivas. Now this mashkun is now in the
• 2:19
  hands of the goy. He has it.
• 2:21
  Now there's a, there's some kind of opinion going on and say he
• 2:27
  and he's responsible and he can at some point keep it.
• 2:30
  So this mash gun that's in the hand of the goy, he can now
• 2:35
  borrow money from a different Jew and there could be rivas
• 2:39
  between them. And when he gives them the mash
• 2:41
  gun, because it's two separate, it's completely 2 separate
• 2:46
  transactions and the two Jews have nothing to do with each
• 2:49
  other. And the, the Acronian point out
• 2:54
  Shaktas and others that really this, this is mutter.
• 3:00
  We had similar cases or it may have been ASER.
• 3:03
  If you read it back and see if Zain Ted, you're not going to
• 3:07
  read it inside right now. But there were cases where it
• 3:10
  was ASER earlier and now we're saying it's Mutter again because
• 3:16
  in those cases the whole purpose of the loan was so that the Jew
• 3:20
  can borrow from the Jew with ribbus and we were trying to
• 3:23
  bring in a goy to somehow clean it up.
• 3:26
  Doesn't work here. You had a clear loan between a
• 3:30
  Jew and a non Jew and then then he continues.
• 3:34
  The goy continues and makes another loan in either
• 3:37
  direction. Let's what else doesn't matter
• 3:39
  with a separate Jew and the two Jews have nothing to do with
• 3:42
  each other. The fact that the mashkun belong
• 3:46
  to a Yussel doesn't make a difference because it was
• 3:51
  because now the mashkun became in the hands of the goy and this
• 3:54
  whole second loan was for the purpose of the goy.
• 3:57
  The goy wanted to borrow the money or you wanted to.
• 4:00
  You can have a case where he wants to make ribbus whatever
• 4:02
  the point is, it's for the purpose of this new loan of a
• 4:07
  goy for the purpose of the goy. It's not for the purpose of two
• 4:13
  Jews trying to to make ribbus between each other.
• 4:16
  The yeish Austin. Now there is an opinion that
• 4:20
  holds it's ASR Ella in Kane al Marisa al Balmashkon Laguy
• 4:26
  unless when the 1st Jew and non Jew made their loan and handed
• 4:32
  over the mash gun at that time he said Omar, you saw about the
• 4:37
  mash gun. The the first Jew who owned the
• 4:39
  mash gun and gave it to the gave it to the Lagoy Kanemi Akshava
• 4:44
  mash gun in. You're not just going to get the
• 4:48
  mash gun later on when this man when time runs out, but it'll be
• 4:53
  La Mafreya. You're getting the mash gun
• 4:55
  right now when I'm handing it over to you.
• 4:58
  Because according to this opinion, later on when the time
• 5:02
  runs out, a goi is not really Kona the Mashkan.
• 5:06
  In order for the goi to be Kona the Mashkan on a technical
• 5:09
  level, it must be at the time of the beginning of the loan.
• 5:13
  But again, I don't think that's the ahlaha.
• 5:16
  Seems to be stumm and Haggar. Let's keep reading.
• 5:30
  That is no, it could be during, it could be during, doesn't
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  matter even the talks man alone can happen anytime once he gets
• 5:42
  the mash gun. OK, Haga ULE savara rishon.
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  I feel a mishala Kabul Hari beat.
• 5:51
  And according to the first opinion, right, the Stam
• 5:56
  whenever we do this, then ribis is mutter to be transferred
• 6:00
  between the second Jew and the goy.
• 6:05
  What? Oh, first Jew Sorician.
• 6:09
  A few of me Surah harisha mutter the Kabul hiribis.
• 6:12
  Yeah, they're yeah, they're both allowed to be in the Kabul ribis
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  because the goy is involved in both cases.
• 6:17
  Completely separate. Correct.
• 6:20
  OK, well, goi khov al Issa. And if the Goi has a khov from a
• 6:27
  Jew, in other words, again, this is just an example.
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  The Goi is a malvet and for example, and the Israel owes him
• 6:35
  money and so he has this debt that's due to him from this Jew,
• 6:39
  due to him from this Jew. But I'll say, you know,
• 6:41
  shibuddhi mutain lo kolashana kah the kah rebeat O shiokhal
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  pirozadeh Shiloh. And so they have an agreement on
• 6:49
  how much ribbous it's going to be throughout the year or how or
• 6:52
  you can use the fruit. You may be out of lova la sali
• 6:56
  kagoy ulahaccir Loma otav Motorola Israel akhter likunoto
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  Y meno. So if the one who took the this
• 7:04
  Jewish one who took the loan, he can't just end it at any time
• 7:08
  and he wants to get out of it. He's allowed to sell this whole
• 7:13
  loan to another Jew. And this is after the fact,
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  Yeah, this Jew, another Jew, can sell his deal, his portion of
• 7:25
  the deal, his half to another Jew.
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  And now the Jew going forward, continues to pay ribis to the
• 7:32
  goy because there's really no loan between the Jew to the Jew.
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  It's a loan. It's a loan that's being
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  transferred. And now all the Ribis is going
• 7:42
  directly from the goy to the Jew, or either Jew to the Jew.
• 7:53
  I'm not sure here. Let's let's maybe we'll look at
• 7:57
  it afterwards. All right, let's let's discuss
• 8:10
  it afterwards. OK.
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  The E you call the Salco usser Li connoto Mina goy and if you
• 8:17
  could get rid of him, then it's usser to to buy the portion from
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  the goy and then continue paying ribis to a Jew.
• 8:30
  All right, so maybe we'll I will discuss with you if you want the
• 8:33
  technical case, if we can figure it out.
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  But the principle I think is clear.
• 8:39
  OK, let's go on to Kaf Olive. So you have money, that Jewish
• 8:54
  cash that was given over from a Jew that's in the hand of a goy.
• 8:58
  He's watching it. The hell though, Tom Lisa
• 9:01
  Baribus. Now the goy takes this money and
• 9:06
  he gives over. So he has money, a sack of money
• 9:09
  in his house and he that belongs to the Jew.
• 9:13
  So he decides to take this money and lend it out to a another Jew
• 9:18
  with ribis. So again this money belongs to a
• 9:21
  Jew or did belong to the Jew. And now the goy is give is
• 9:28
  renting it out right, lending it out with ribis.
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  E Mai, you be a khayuta goy muttra likaha ribis.
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  If the goy takes full responsibility and it's a it's a
• 9:40
  completely new transaction between the non Jew and this new
• 9:45
  the second Jew, there's no problem because just because
• 9:50
  he's using the same sack of coins, we don't look at it as
• 9:54
  Jewish money now. We look at it as goyish money.
• 9:59
  And now the goy owes the first Jew and the second Jew owes the
• 10:05
  goy. There's really no connection
• 10:08
  between the the two, the two Jews.
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  So that's since the goy takes responsibility, it's as if it's
• 10:14
  his and now he just has a debt to the first Jew and it's 100%
• 10:17
  much or it's a whole new transaction, a whole new loan.
• 10:20
  It's a whole and this is his loan to a Jew, there's no
• 10:23
  problem. But if some, but if that money,
• 10:28
  no, actually if the goy and the Jew said this money belongs to
• 10:32
  the Jew and if something happens to it, the Jew loses out, not
• 10:35
  the goy. So then we look at it as that
• 10:38
  that physical money actually is Jewish money.
• 10:42
  And then it's 100% user OK Haggah, the IM Halo, the IM
• 10:57
  Hilweltan Shalomi Datisel Mista Maheim.
• 11:03
  And if it's, if you gave it to him, normal case, the ramaja
• 11:08
  says a normal case. Of course, anytime you give cash
• 11:11
  to a goy or somebody else, the person who's holding on to the
• 11:14
  cash has full responsibility. And it's not looked upon as in
• 11:20
  this case. It's not Jewish money.
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  It's a sack of goyish money and it's 100% what there.
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  But Taz points out it could be a case if it's in the Alkhra youth
• 11:31
  of the first Jew, it could be a case of ribos kutsa, depending.
• 11:36
  OK, either way it's us. Let's go to Kaf.
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  Bet you have cash of a goy. Basically the converse, the
• 11:47
  exact opposite case here. You have cash of a goy and it's
• 11:52
  in the hands of the Jew. So if it's in, the Jew is
• 12:00
  responsible for it. So then of course it's for him
• 12:03
  to lend it to for with ribis to another Jew, right?
• 12:09
  We just learned that and it would be ASR mutter.
• 12:14
  But if it's in the Aquarius of Agoy.
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  So based on the way we just learned the last if it should be
• 12:21
  mutter and technically it would be mutter, but in this case
• 12:29
  there it's an esser of Morris Ain and generally we say a few
• 12:33
  of the Qadri Qadaran. Why?
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  Because here the Jew is holding the sack of money and he is
• 12:39
  giving it to the goy. And so therefore it's it's a
• 12:43
  problem. It's AUSA.
• 12:52
  It's between a Jew and a Jew. There's nothing there's nothing
• 12:56
  to do with you own the money. So if it's a Jew to a Jew it's
• 12:59
  an Issa dar Isa. And if it's, and if it belongs
• 13:02
  to Agoy and he's responsible for it, it should be Mucho La
• 13:06
  Kakila, except there's this problem of Maurice Ayin, who is
• 13:08
  who's earning the interest? If the guy's earning the
• 13:14
  interest, no, the Jews earning the interest, it's 100% much.
• 13:18
  It's right. The middle guy is just an agent.
• 13:24
  He's making his money on his agent and his referral fee or
• 13:28
  whatever it is. Agency fee, no problem.
• 13:31
  Brokerage fee. So, but it's us.
• 13:34
  But it's us from Mishaum Marasain.
• 13:37
  OK, we're going to see a bit more about that.
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  Did not do any extensive research on Marasain over here.
• 13:46
  We're going to see in a moment. By being a broker, it is
• 13:50
  generally no problem of Marasain.
• 13:52
  If you're a broker, we're about to see that because everyone
• 13:55
  knows it's not your money, it's someone else's money.
• 13:58
  But if you're a private guy in your house, so the general,
• 14:02
  generally we'll say it's Mara sign, but perhaps there's other
• 14:06
  circumstances where it might not be Mara sign.
• 14:09
  OK, Kaf Gilmore Lagoy, basically a Jew, tells Lagoy.
• 14:21
  I want you to lend out money and you're going to keep OK Lex
• 14:26
  karek, whatever. You're going to get an agency
• 14:27
  fee. Skartivuk, you're going to get
• 14:30
  profit by working for me. But what I want you to do is
• 14:33
  here's the halva Maozai beribis. You're go take my money and lend
• 14:40
  it out to a Jew with ribis Aser. We just learned that's 100% user
• 14:46
  because he's working for you. It's uracharias on the money and
• 14:51
  it's a Jew to Jew. So it's Aser Beribis, the goy
• 14:54
  Shalmali sirah they have there my O siberibus mutter.
• 15:00
  And the opposite case. If a goy tells the Jew you just
• 15:04
  be my agent, take my money and give it to him, then it's mutter
• 15:08
  of all ASR lasso came with me Marisa Ain.
• 15:12
  But again, it's it's it's this case is Amaris Ain because it
• 15:18
  however, it really all depends who's the Akrayasan, who's is
• 15:23
  the middle man taking new responsibility?
• 15:26
  And this is the same thing we've been learning again and again
• 15:28
  and again. Is the middle person taking us
• 15:30
  assuming the new loan or is he just a vehicle?
• 15:35
  All right, Hagar meal IME Hadavar mehfoursan Lorabi.
• 15:41
  If it's it's obvious and known to everyone that what you're
• 15:46
  doing is it's what's it called? You're just working as a Shalia
• 15:53
  and it's not your money, even though you're holding on to it
• 15:56
  like you're a broker. It's 100% motor.
• 15:59
  You see the Shah, the Hainu Shah, umm na sobika, that's your
• 16:02
  profession. But if not, it's clear in the
• 16:05
  base Yosef and Iran that if just because it's then it would be
• 16:10
  ussered, even though you're it's in your house and you tell the
• 16:13
  guy, listen, this is not my money.
• 16:15
  I'll prove it to you. It's not my money.
• 16:17
  I'm just holding on to the sack of money of a goy.
• 16:20
  But I'm going to do the I'm going to be your agent.
• 16:23
  But even if you tell all the parties involved, since you're
• 16:27
  holding on to the cash and you're the one who's doing
• 16:29
  everything, it's so OK, OK, let's go.
• 16:39
  Maybe there might be some ways where it's Smutter, I don't
• 16:41
  know. But in general, it's Mara sign,
• 16:43
  Prabal Kaf Dalid, Goyish al Salisra al Petropa al Nekhasov.
• 16:50
  If a here, we're going to read the case.
• 16:54
  But really it goes back to the last line.
• 16:57
  So don't don't break your head too much.
• 16:59
  Let's just keep reading. A goy goy is let's say the top
• 17:04
  manager or I'm not sure the best word for it.
• 17:09
  He runs your all the Jewish property of a of a there's this
• 17:15
  agoy works for a Jew and he is in charge of all of his property
• 17:21
  and he he runs everything Mutter Elovos Emmanuel Baribis.
• 17:25
  You're a any Jew can go to this manager, CEO, whatever it is of
• 17:31
  a Jewish property, a Jewish enterprise, whatever.
• 17:41
  So that's the whole point. The Goi works for this Jew.
• 17:48
  The Goi, What I meant to say is the Goi works for the Jew.
• 17:54
  OK, OK, let's keep reading. OK, OK, OK, fine, fine, the
• 18:06
  fine, right. So you want to say in this case
• 18:07
  the Jew fine, the Jew is the one who runs the property of a goy,
• 18:12
  OK, the Israel Shasa Lagoya. And if the OK, so the first case
• 18:20
  the right, the second one is the opposite where the goy run.
• 18:29
  So one is Aser, 1 is Mather, the first one is Muttu, The second
• 18:34
  case is ASO. Emmanuel Berebus.
• 18:37
  You're not allowed to go to here.
• 18:44
  Let me read the last line. The gamze itali bimisha khayo
• 18:48
  salaf. OK, so really it all depends
• 18:51
  who's the akhayas and whose money it is.
• 18:54
  If it's from the goiz money, it's Mutter.
• 18:56
  From the Jewish money it's ASA. The question is, Stam, who is
• 19:02
  it? Are we so the taz right?
• 19:08
  There's no Mars in right. And we say mistama, read the
• 19:13
  words from the taz mistama shagam Hamas shamalve.
• 19:17
  Who shall go the incon mishum marisain.
• 19:21
  Because so then we're saying normally if you go to the
• 19:26
  manager to borrow the money, we're saying you're really
• 19:30
  borrowing the manager's money or really borrowing the, the, the
• 19:34
  owner's money. Fine, that's right.
• 19:37
  Because the manager we know works for the Jews.
• 19:39
  So if you're going to the manager or the manager works for
• 19:42
  the owner. So if you go to the manager,
• 19:44
  we're always assuming it's from the owner.
• 19:47
  He's using the owner's money. OK, fine.
• 19:50
  Unless you prove and you who has the archias or you write it down
• 19:54
  and it's clear. OK, fine.
• 19:56
  All right, anyway, who's on 1st and who's on 2nd?
• 20:00
  It's always difficult for me. Kaf.
• 20:02
  Hey, OK, now this next halakha is basically just a one off of
• 20:08
  new topic of Hoshan Mishpat, so let's just go through it.