Latest / The Book Deal / Natasha Rai on persevering through setbacks, rewriting drafts, and securing her debut book deal

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Natasha Rai on persevering through setbacks, rewriting drafts, and securing her debut book deal · The Book Deal

• 0:09
  Madeleine Cleary: This is the Book Deal Podcast.
• 0:10
  Madeleine Cleary: Where you will discover the inspiring stories of the authors behind your favourite books.
• 0:15
  Madeleine Cleary: No matter what stage of writing you are at, we've got you covered.
• 0:19
  Madeleine Cleary: I'm Tina Strachan.
• 0:20
  Madeleine Cleary: And I'm Madeleine Cleary.
• 0:21
  Madeleine Cleary: And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors.
• 0:25
  Madeleine Cleary: One deal at a time.
• 0:29
  Madeleine Cleary: The Book Deal Podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters which it's recorded on.
• 0:35
  Madeleine Cleary: and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
• 0:43
  Madeleine Cleary: Hi, it's Madeleine here.
• 0:44
  Madeleine Cleary: I was so thrilled to interview my good friend and fellow podcaster, Natasha Rai.
• 0:49
  Madeleine Cleary: You may know Natasha from the Takeover series here on the Book Deal podcast, but we're also celebrating Natasha's debut novel, An Onslaught of Light, which was released on the 4th of March in 2025 with Pantera Press.
• 1:03
  Madeleine Cleary: Natasha was born in India and migrated to Australia with her parents at the age of 10.
• 1:08
  Madeleine Cleary: She lived in the UK for several years as an adult, and the influence of Three Homes features in her writing.
• 1:15
  Madeleine Cleary: An Onslaught of Light was long listed for the 2017 Richell Prize and the 2018 KYD Unpublished Manuscript Award, and was highly commended for the 2022 Westwords Ultimo Prize.
• 1:28
  Madeleine Cleary: Natasha slides in so many top tips into this episode.
• 1:31
  Madeleine Cleary: So come as always with your pen and paper ready.
• 1:35
  Madeleine Cleary: As Natasha and I are friends, our conversation takes many pathways and is full of good humor and light.
• 1:41
  Madeleine Cleary: Natasha Rai, welcome to the book deal podcast.
• 1:44
  Madeleine Cleary: Thank you, Madeleine.
• 1:44
  Madeleine Cleary: Great to be here.
• 1:46
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh, just so excited to have you on.
• 1:48
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, we have been chatting for a long time, actually.
• 1:52
  Madeleine Cleary: We have, yes.
• 1:53
  Madeleine Cleary: You were the first Debut 2025 author to reach out to me after I created the crew.
• 2:00
  Natasha Rai (2): I was, I was so excited when I realized you'd started this group.
• 2:03
  Natasha Rai (2): So
• 2:04
  Madeleine Cleary: I was just so excited.
• 2:05
  Madeleine Cleary: Someone reached out to me.
• 2:06
  Madeleine Cleary: I was really worried.
• 2:06
  Madeleine Cleary: I would start the crew and like, no one would know who I was.
• 2:10
  Madeleine Cleary: And there'd be like this other crew forming that I had no idea about.
• 2:13
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh, that's awful.
• 2:15
  Madeleine Cleary: When you reached out, I was like, yes, I've got a friend.
• 2:19
  Natasha Rai: And it's been, honestly, it's been invaluable.
• 2:21
  Natasha Rai: So thank you.
• 2:23
  Madeleine Cleary: It's been amazing.
• 2:23
  Madeleine Cleary: And your book is wonderful and incredible and invaluable and everyone should read it.
• 2:31
  Madeleine Cleary: Do you want to give us your pitch first and then we can dive into all the things?
• 2:36
  Natasha Rai: An Onslaught of Light, published on the 4th of March.
• 2:41
  Natasha Rai: Follows the story of Archana Sharma, who is living her perfect life, alone, isolated, solitary.
• 2:47
  Natasha Rai: When she is forced into caring for her father, she has to reckon with a family grief that's buried deep, her cultural identity, and her queerness.
• 2:57
  Madeleine Cleary: I was just so struck by this book.
• 2:59
  Madeleine Cleary: And I'm one of the very lucky ones to have read an advanced copy of it.
• 3:03
  Madeleine Cleary: And, um, I think I was, I was messaging you constantly throughout it.
• 3:07
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes,
• 3:08
  Natasha Rai (2): you were, which was a huge relief and also a huge source of terror.
• 3:13
  Madeleine Cleary: I know because you're, you're someone Natasha, who I've observed for the last 18 months, and you're a very naturally calm person.
• 3:20
  Madeleine Cleary: Perhaps there's lots going on the inside, but on the exterior, you're very calm and considered.
• 3:25
  Madeleine Cleary: But you did say to me, one of your, the things that you're most anxious about is about people close to you reading it.
• 3:31
  Madeleine Cleary: Why do you think that is?
• 3:32
  Natasha Rai (2): Well, because you know, you, people know you a certain way, especially friends, close friends, even colleagues.
• 3:39
  Natasha Rai (2): And when they read, even though it's fiction, when they read something that has some similarities to my life.
• 3:45
  Natasha Rai (2): I think, I know that connections will be made, questions will be asked, oh, how much of this is real, how much is fiction, so I think that's part of the worry.
• 3:56
  Madeleine Cleary: How much of it is real, Natasha?
• 3:58
  Natasha Rai (2): Apart from a family who is Indian, who moves to Australia.
• 4:02
  Natasha Rai (2): That's it.
• 4:03
  Natasha Rai (2): Everything else is fiction.
• 4:05
  Natasha Rai (2): So do you
• 4:06
  Madeleine Cleary: want to talk a little bit then about the inspiration behind the book?
• 4:10
  Natasha Rai (2): Yes.
• 4:10
  Natasha Rai (2): Um, actually it was interesting.
• 4:12
  Natasha Rai (2): What inspired me is not my move so much from India to Australia because I was only 10 when we moved here.
• 4:20
  Natasha Rai (2): It was actually when I came back from the UK, I was living in the UK for 11 years.
• 4:24
  Natasha Rai (2): And I moved back to Australia in 2016 and it was such a strange experience for me because I was really noticing aspects of Sydney, which was never my home anyway, because I grew up in Newcastle, but aspects of Sydney that were familiar and yet not, and really missing London and feeling that.
• 4:45
  Natasha Rai (2): Strange experience of this is my home, but it's not really.
• 4:50
  Natasha Rai (2): And my home is back there and I've left it and just sit searching for how to make this now my home.
• 4:58
  Natasha Rai (2): And this person was in my head.
• 5:00
  Natasha Rai (2): Archana Sharma.
• 5:02
  Natasha Rai (2): And that's how I started writing it because there were all these scenes that just were there, like, she was just telling me the story.
• 5:10
  Natasha Rai (2): Isn't that amazing?
• 5:11
  Natasha Rai (2): Yeah, so it was that search for what does home mean that I started writing it.
• 5:14
  Natasha Rai (2): Do you think that people can have multiple homes as well?
• 5:17
  Natasha Rai (2): Oh, for sure.
• 5:18
  Natasha Rai (2): That's what I've realized now.
• 5:19
  Natasha Rai (2): Mm hmm.
• 5:21
  Natasha Rai (2): It is so much more than place, it's, it can be connection with people, connection to place definitely, and it, home just speaks to different parts of you, in my
• 5:33
  opinion.
• 5:34
  Madeleine Cleary: So, when you spoke about Archana, who's one of your three characters that you progressed through.
• 5:40
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, you said that she spoke to you and told you the story.
• 5:44
  Madeleine Cleary: And I really got that sense that your voice, and this is the thing that people often talk about with books, the voice, and it's quite hard thing to describe because it's quite different point of view perspective.
• 5:57
  Madeleine Cleary: The voice is something.
• 5:58
  Madeleine Cleary: A little less tangible, I think.
• 6:01
  Madeleine Cleary: For you, did you feel like, was that voice always, it sounded like it was very clear to you, but is it something that you had to work on?
• 6:09
  Natasha Rai (2): Um, I should say yes.
• 6:12
  Natasha Rai (2): But, because, look, I did, and I didn't, because Archana especially just came to me fully formed.
• 6:20
  Natasha Rai (2): It was the quality of anger and that bristling harshness.
• 6:25
  Natasha Rai (2): I am a rock.
• 6:27
  Natasha Rai (2): No one will enter me.
• 6:29
  Natasha Rai (2): No one will ever get past this.
• 6:30
  Natasha Rai (2): I got that from Ajna.
• 6:32
  Natasha Rai (2): Yeah, that just came to me so strongly.
• 6:35
  Natasha Rai (2): Um, and so I, that, I started writing that and then out of that actually came, well, how do people around her deal with it?
• 6:43
  Because
• 6:44
  Natasha Rai (2): she is, if you can just get past that rock, Part.
• 6:48
  Natasha Rai (2): She is lovable.
• 6:49
  Natasha Rai (2): She's just so deeply hurt.
• 6:52
  Natasha Rai (2): And so who are these people who could love her?
• 6:54
  Natasha Rai (2): And then Indu came to me and Indu for me was, I was like, she cannot be hard herself.
• 7:01
  Natasha Rai (2): She has to be something else.
• 7:03
  Natasha Rai (2): And then Vijay is like this, almost like this, uh, like they're, if they are two streams, Archana and Indu, Vijay is this thing in the middle that they both kind of batter up against in different ways.
• 7:15
  Natasha Rai (2): And that's kind of how I was thinking about voice.
• 7:18
  Madeleine Cleary: Some writers, the story comes first for them, but, but for you, it sounds like in this novel, it's the characters that really spoke to you.
• 7:26
  Madeleine Cleary: Clearly the story flowed around.
• 7:28
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 7:29
  Natasha Rai (2): The characters always come to me first.
• 7:31
  Natasha Rai (2): Always for you.
• 7:32
  Natasha Rai (2): And I've heard you talk to Tina about this, about character and story and the idea of writing a synopsis before just.
• 7:40
  Natasha Rai (2): Chills me to my very core.
• 7:42
  Natasha Rai (2): Thank you,
• 7:43
  Madeleine Cleary: Tina.
• 7:43
  Madeleine Cleary: You've got to listen to this.
• 7:45
  Natasha Rai (2): Natasha and I are on the same page here.
• 7:47
  Natasha Rai (2): Exactly.
• 7:48
  Natasha Rai (2): So for me it was always characters, which is why I floundered at the beginning because it was a bunch of scenes where something was happening to these characters or they were doing something and that was After that, the story started to emerge.
• 8:04
  Madeleine Cleary: I think there is so much that we can learn about this story as well.
• 8:08
  Madeleine Cleary: And the multiple timelines, there's a, um, you know, a modern day and a, and a one that's set in the, it's not historical fiction, I would say.
• 8:18
  Madeleine Cleary: It's hard to call
• 8:18
  Natasha Rai (2): the 80s and 90s historical.
• 8:21
  Natasha Rai (2): They were 30, 40 years ago.
• 8:23
  Natasha Rai (2): Oh, my gosh.
• 8:24
  Natasha Rai (2): Technically.
• 8:24
  Natasha Rai (2): Um,
• 8:27
  Madeleine Cleary: I, so I think there's so much to learn in, in, you know, looking and reflecting back in the past and in the current day.
• 8:33
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and what I took from this novel is that, you know, all of us have this light and dark in us across our lives.
• 8:42
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, uh, could you talk maybe a little bit about About that, and I'm guessing this is one of the reasons for the title and onslaught of light.
• 8:52
  Madeleine Cleary: If we, we have to allow that light to come in to be able to shine upon, but we need the dark as well in order to, to expose the light.
• 9:00
  Natasha Rai (2): Yeah.
• 9:01
  Natasha Rai (2): And I guess for this, this kind of.
• 9:05
  Natasha Rai (2): Thinking about dark and light, I was really coming at it from a trauma lens.
• 9:10
  Natasha Rai (2): Um, because trauma robs us of light.
• 9:13
  Natasha Rai (2): Trauma takes away our ability to connect with others and to ourselves.
• 9:18
  Natasha Rai (2): And it really leaves a lot of people in survival mode, where you know how to go to work, you know how to look after yourself, and you miss out on the joy of a lot of things, because everything is geared into certainty.
• 9:30
  Natasha Rai (2): And uncertainty lies.
• 9:31
  Natasha Rai (2): Darkness sometimes, because if you're certain about everything, you can't let curiosity flourish.
• 9:36
  Natasha Rai (2): You can't allow yourself to try and not do something because the trying and doing is too hard.
• 9:43
  Natasha Rai (2): So I was interested in the darkness also brings silence.
• 9:48
  Natasha Rai (2): You can't talk about things, you can't reach out.
• 9:51
  Natasha Rai (2): And so the, the, the image that I had in my mind was this dark chamber that she's in, Archana, Vijay, and Indu, and like, at times, somebody or something makes a little chink in your chamber, and there's this little beautiful stream of light that comes in, and it's about the bravery of going, I'm now curious about what that light comes from, and how does it come in, and so that was kind of where I was thinking about how this chamber around her gets Uh, in some ways smashed up by others
• 10:23
  Madeleine Cleary: and in
• 10:23
  Natasha Rai (2): other ways, she pushes out into that.
• 10:26
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh, that gave me shivers the way that you described that.
• 10:29
  Madeleine Cleary: And throughout the book, there is, you know, a lot of darkness in the book, but there are these moments that you insert perhaps deliberately, which are that those joyful moments.
• 10:40
  Madeleine Cleary: And I just, yeah.
• 10:41
  Madeleine Cleary: Because
• 10:43
  Natasha Rai (2): that's the thing, even with trauma, there's always possibility, there's always possibility, no matter how desperate it feels, no matter how awful it feels, if you are able to let it in, you can find it always, but it's It's about knowing or trusting yourself because everyone has it.
• 11:05
  Madeleine Cleary: And your, your work, um, as you're a trauma counsellor.
• 11:09
  Natasha Rai (2): Yes.
• 11:10
  Madeleine Cleary: Has that informed this view, do you think?
• 11:14
  Natasha Rai (2): Uh, definitely, uh, because I'm constantly amazed at people's resilience and that word is used so much now.
• 11:20
  Natasha Rai (2): It is.
• 11:20
  Natasha Rai (2): I'm constantly amazed at our human capacity to recover and heal.
• 11:26
  Natasha Rai (2): It is truly amazing.
• 11:27
  Natasha Rai (2): And I get to do this work that I get to witness that.
• 11:31
  Natasha Rai (2): So, and I think it's that it's this, because so much of, you know, when you go online, social media, et cetera, so much of it is feel sometimes hopeless in terms of once you're here, it's really difficult.
• 11:44
  Natasha Rai (2): But there is always a possibility, which is what I get drawn to, the possibility.
• 11:50
  Madeleine Cleary: There's a lot of irony in the book, I sensed as well.
• 11:55
  Madeleine Cleary: And I like the way that you inserted it.
• 11:57
  Madeleine Cleary: It wasn't in your face, um, but it was a really subtle way of doing things.
• 12:02
  Madeleine Cleary: And, and almost a little, yeah, that you, so you got that sort of humorous side where you could reflect on your own views and biases and experiences.
• 12:09
  Madeleine Cleary: And one of the scenes that struck me was when Indhu was at the government.
• 12:14
  Madeleine Cleary: Office.
• 12:15
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
• 12:15
  Madeleine Cleary: And she was behind.
• 12:17
  Madeleine Cleary: She was talking to a woman working behind the counter in fluent English because in India people speak fluent English and the woman said, well, we can't do this for you unless you undertake in migrant English courses and Indu said, but we are having a conversation right now in English.
• 12:38
  Madeleine Cleary: Why do I have to do these courses?
• 12:40
  Madeleine Cleary: And the woman was just like, you just have to do it.
• 12:42
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
• 12:43
  Natasha Rai (2): Yes.
• 12:44
  Madeleine Cleary: This is, you know, this is something I think that comes up in migrant in literature about the migrant experience.
• 12:51
  Madeleine Cleary: It's something that is so important for all Australians to engage in, um, and to check our own biases as well.
• 13:00
  Do
• 13:01
  Madeleine Cleary: you think that, um, we're doing enough?
• 13:04
  Madeleine Cleary: to promote them in the industry?
• 13:06
  Madeleine Cleary: Do you, have you felt a shift, I suppose, in terms of the voices, the new voices that are emerging?
• 13:12
  Natasha Rai (2): I think there's definitely a shift because, you know, that scene came out of, um, the policy at the time.
• 13:18
  Natasha Rai (2): So in 1990, when we came, the policy was assimilation.
• 13:21
  Natasha Rai (2): Like, you know, everyone should assimilate and be the same and homogenous.
• 13:25
  Natasha Rai (2): So those types of, that was policy driven.
• 13:28
  Natasha Rai (2): So it doesn't take any Uh, what's the word, any account of the person standing in front of you with their own history, et cetera.
• 13:35
  Natasha Rai (2): Computer says no.
• 13:37
  Natasha Rai (2): Yeah, exactly.
• 13:38
  Natasha Rai (2): Exactly.
• 13:38
  Natasha Rai (2): But I think now things have definitely changed.
• 13:41
  Natasha Rai (2): Like you can, you know, um, SPS, for example, you can watch multiple programs in different languages.
• 13:48
  Natasha Rai (2): Um, there's access for communities, even community all around.
• 13:51
  Natasha Rai (2): And I'm being very specific.
• 13:53
  Natasha Rai (2): With Sydney now, because this is where I live, but you can just do this beautiful pockets of community all over the place.
• 13:59
  Natasha Rai (2): And in publishing, we've got so much.
• 14:04
  Natasha Rai (2): It's not there yet to say it isn't there yet, but there are so many new voices, um, Aboriginal, Sri Lankan, Lebanese there, you know, from, from parts of Africa, there is, there is definitely a move towards it.
• 14:19
  Natasha Rai (2): In my view, it's not fast enough, it's never fast enough because even our literature doesn't fully yet reflect what's happening in the real world, like in terms of who lives here in this country, but we're getting there and it is much, much better.
• 14:35
  Madeleine Cleary: And you know, especially given what's going on in Australia at the moment.
• 14:40
  Madeleine Cleary: with everything about social cohesion and the importance of social cohesion as well.
• 14:44
  Madeleine Cleary: I think having literature as a way to connect and your book is all about finding connection.
• 14:50
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah, I think it's really important that us as an industry go and promote those things too.
• 14:54
  Madeleine Cleary: And
• 14:54
  Natasha Rai (2): I think it's important to say that there is so much room for everyone.
• 14:59
  Natasha Rai (2): It's not about if we start to amplify this voice or that voice, somebody else will miss out.
• 15:04
  Natasha Rai (2): Actually, the more you amplify, the more room you create.
• 15:07
  Natasha Rai (2): So.
• 15:08
  Natasha Rai (2): I think sometimes there might be a fear that, you know, we can't have too much of this or too much of that, but it just shows when you do it and, you know, books sell well, or it does well in a certain way.
• 15:21
  Natasha Rai (2): There are people wanting it.
• 15:22
  Natasha Rai (2): There are readers hungry for it.
• 15:24
  Madeleine Cleary: Exactly, exactly.
• 15:25
  Madeleine Cleary: It's exciting.
• 15:26
  Madeleine Cleary: I think the future is really exciting.
• 15:28
  Natasha Rai (2): Yeah, I agree.
• 15:29
  Madeleine Cleary: And, um, I'm excited as well in, you know, five years when we'll be having a further conversation after your stellar prize winning books and miles Franklin award.
• 15:41
  Natasha Rai (2): Don't know about that, but thank you.
• 15:44
  Madeleine Cleary: Okay.
• 15:44
  Madeleine Cleary: So let's talk about, because we are obviously on the book deal podcast.
• 15:48
  Madeleine Cleary: We're all interested in book deals and how you got your deal.
• 15:51
  Madeleine Cleary: And.
• 15:52
  Madeleine Cleary: We, I'm going to admit, have had a chat before about your journey to publication, which is a very interesting one.
• 16:00
  Madeleine Cleary: And this, not only I thought your book was amazing, but I wanted to get you on, cause I think you've got a lot, a lot of advice for emerging writers.
• 16:08
  Madeleine Cleary: So let's talk about your journey.
• 16:11
  Madeleine Cleary: So when did you first start?
• 16:15
  Madeleine Cleary: Writing an Onslaught of Lime.
• 16:17
  Natasha Rai (2): So I started writing it in 2017, the year after I came back from the UK.
• 16:23
  Natasha Rai (2): And I enrolled, um, in a course at the, at Writing New South Wales called The Year of the Novel.
• 16:28
  Natasha Rai (2): It is still running.
• 16:29
  Natasha Rai (2): So anyone out there who's thinking about writing a novel and has some random scenes or even a line, enroll.
• 16:36
  Natasha Rai (2): It is the best thing I ever did.
• 16:39
  Natasha Rai (2): Um, at the time, Emily Maguire, the excellent Emily Maguire was teaching the course.
• 16:43
  Natasha Rai (2): And It was just so helpful.
• 16:46
  Natasha Rai (2): So over the course of that year, I wrote a draft, I like to call it zero draft.
• 16:52
  Natasha Rai (2): I've heard it being called a vomit draft before, but it's not all, you know, putrid.
• 16:56
  Natasha Rai (2): So I like to call it a zero draft.
• 16:59
  Natasha Rai (2): Um, and, um, what gave me the biggest boost was that year, um, it was long listed for the Ritchell prize,
• 17:05
  Madeleine Cleary: which is amazing.
• 17:06
  Madeleine Cleary: So do you want to tell the.
• 17:08
  Madeleine Cleary: Uh, listeners a little bit about Richell Prize because it's an amazing
• 17:11
  Natasha Rai (2): prize.
• 17:11
  Natasha Rai (2): It is an amazing prize.
• 17:12
  Natasha Rai (2): The Richell Prize is, um, a prize for unpublished writers and you submit, I think it's three chapters, a synopsis and a chapter breakdown.
• 17:24
  Natasha Rai (2): So basically what happens the rest of the story, and I think a statement about what the prize winning means to you.
• 17:30
  Natasha Rai (2): You win a mentorship with Hachette, um, money that goes to an advance if you do get published.
• 17:37
  Natasha Rai (2): And the best thing about the prize is you don't have to have a full length novel ready.
• 17:42
  Natasha Rai (2): So good.
• 17:42
  Natasha Rai (2): And it's for unpublished for unpublished writers only.
• 17:46
  Natasha Rai (2): So it is such an incredible opportunity and it's worth doing it.
• 17:52
  Natasha Rai (2): It's so worth doing it.
• 17:54
  Natasha Rai (2): What was it like when you got longlisted?
• 17:56
  Natasha Rai (2): It was so amazing because I didn't even know I was.
• 18:00
  Natasha Rai (2): Somebody, somebody who I knew, another writer whose group, like writing group I was in, Um, message me going, Oh my God, congratulations.
• 18:08
  Natasha Rai (2): I'm like, what for?
• 18:10
  Natasha Rai (2): And he's like, you've been long listed.
• 18:11
  Natasha Rai (2): I'm like, yeah, and I fully went online expecting it to be a typo or seeing someone else's name and him have to have misread it.
• 18:20
  Natasha Rai (2): And there it was.
• 18:21
  Natasha Rai (2): And at the time I think I was calling it light and shadow or light.
• 18:26
  Natasha Rai (2): Dark corners or something and there it was and I was like, Oh my God.
• 18:31
  Natasha Rai (2): And I emailed Emily cause we were still doing the course.
• 18:34
  Natasha Rai (2): And she was like, can I announce this to the group?
• 18:37
  Natasha Rai (2): And I'm like, Oh God.
• 18:38
  Natasha Rai (2): Okay.
• 18:39
  Natasha Rai (2): But she, you know, I could certainly understand why she did it.
• 18:41
  Natasha Rai (2): She did it as a way to say, see.
• 18:43
  Natasha Rai (2): Yes.
• 18:44
  Natasha Rai (2): Anyone, everyone should, you know, you should not feel scared, do it because this is what could happen.
• 18:50
  Madeleine Cleary: And those initial moment, like that, that first moment when you're writing is validated is it's just so good, isn't it?
• 18:57
  Madeleine Cleary: That's powerful because it's other people might actually like
• 19:01
  Natasha Rai (2): somebody else who's an expert is saying, or maybe not.
• 19:08
  Natasha Rai (2): Yes.
• 19:09
  Natasha Rai (2): As an expert, somebody who's does this for a living is saying.
• 19:12
  Natasha Rai (2): Your words are worth reading.
• 19:13
  Natasha Rai (2): Yes.
• 19:14
  Natasha Rai (2): Your words are worth sharing.
• 19:15
  Natasha Rai (2): Yeah.
• 19:15
  Madeleine Cleary: Okay.
• 19:16
  Madeleine Cleary: So your long list of this is in 2017?
• 19:18
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
• 19:19
  Madeleine Cleary: 17, 20 17.
• 19:21
  Madeleine Cleary: Yep.
• 19:22
  Madeleine Cleary: What happens then?
• 19:23
  Natasha Rai (2): So then I didn't get on the short list, which is fine.
• 19:24
  Natasha Rai (2): The long list was enough to like keep me going for like a good year after that, Um, so I finished my novel.
• 19:30
  Natasha Rai (2): I got an agent at the time mm-hmm And at the time the novel was really, really different structure and so she, so you're on a great
• 19:36
  Madeleine Cleary: path then
• 19:37
  Natasha Rai (2): Natasha, because you, you've been
• 19:39
  Madeleine Cleary: long listed in the retail prize.
• 19:41
  Madeleine Cleary: And then you get an agent.
• 19:42
  Madeleine Cleary: Amazing.
• 19:42
  Madeleine Cleary: Okay.
• 19:43
  Madeleine Cleary: So you're basically like, this book's going to be out next year and I'm going to That's what
• 19:46
  Natasha Rai (2): I genuinely thought.
• 19:47
  Natasha Rai (2): So then she submitted to everybody, like all the major publishers and some of the smaller ones.
• 19:53
  Natasha Rai (2): And the feedback I got was incredibly depressing because it wasn't anything I could use.
• 19:58
  Natasha Rai (2): So for example, we don't know where to place this.
• 20:00
  Natasha Rai (2): Um, this sits in the uncomfortable, uh, space between literary fiction and contemporary fiction.
• 20:06
  Natasha Rai (2): I don't know what that means.
• 20:08
  Natasha Rai (2): What does that mean?
• 20:09
  Natasha Rai (2): I don't know.
• 20:09
  Natasha Rai (2): I still don't know.
• 20:10
  Natasha Rai (2): Um, and then somebody, somebody else said, a publisher who I won't name, um, the messages of racism are a bit too much.
• 20:17
  Natasha Rai (2): So, I'm like, okay, I don't know what to do about that.
• 20:21
  Natasha Rai (2): Um, so, it's fine.
• 20:25
  Natasha Rai (2): It's fine.
• 20:25
  Natasha Rai (2): Wow.
• 20:26
  Natasha Rai (2): Wow.
• 20:26
  Natasha Rai (2): Yeah.
• 20:27
  Natasha Rai (2): Yeah.
• 20:27
  Natasha Rai (2): And then, so after that, my, um, agent and I did part ways, because she was like, I think we've come to the end of the line with this.
• 20:34
  Natasha Rai (2): I don't know what else to do.
• 20:35
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh, Natasha, that would have been really difficult.
• 20:38
  Natasha Rai (2): It was, um, but luckily, because some of the excellent advice that I got from my Year of the Novel course, I had started writing other things.
• 20:46
  Natasha Rai (2): Is that going to be like a
• 20:47
  Madeleine Cleary: top tip?
• 20:47
  Madeleine Cleary: Have something else going on?
• 20:49
  Natasha Rai (2): Yes, I'm going to do the top tip right now because I've actually got more than one.
• 20:52
  Natasha Rai (2): Keep writing.
• 20:53
  Natasha Rai (2): Do not focus too much on the one thing because you'll go mad.
• 20:58
  Natasha Rai (2): Just keep writing.
• 21:00
  Natasha Rai (2): Um, and so I just kept writing and I kept working on Onslaught every now and then I'd come in and do something.
• 21:05
  Natasha Rai (2): And then in 2018, it was long listed.
• 21:08
  Natasha Rai (2): The KYD Kill Your Darlings Unpublished Manuscript Award.
• 21:12
  Natasha Rai (2): I don't know if that award still is still going.
• 21:16
  Natasha Rai (2): Um, but it was again for unpublished writers and you had to submit your entire manuscript.
• 21:23
  Natasha Rai (2): And I was blown away when I was longlisted.
• 21:25
  Natasha Rai (2): Huge.
• 21:27
  Natasha Rai (2): Huge, a huge deal.
• 21:29
  Madeleine Cleary: So you've been, you've shortlisted for two major unpublished manuscript awards.
• 21:33
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 21:34
  Madeleine Cleary: So you're, you've got something.
• 21:36
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 21:36
  Madeleine Cleary: There was something there.
• 21:38
  Christine Newell (2): Hi everyone.
• 21:39
  Christine Newell (2): I'm Christine Newell, a member of the 2025 Debut Crew and author of Five Seasons in Seoul, which was released on the 25th of February through Affirm Press.
• 21:50
  Christine Newell (2): Five Seasons in Seoul is a memoir about my experience living and performing in South Korea.
• 21:57
  Christine Newell (2): My father's death after a prolonged illness left me suffering with debilitating anxiety and depression, and I was at a low point in my musical theatre career, dressing up as a dinosaur to pay the bills.
• 22:10
  Christine Newell (2): So, when a role with an experimental theatre company based in South Korea came up unexpectedly, it seemed like the perfect escape from my problems.
• 22:19
  Christine Newell (2): But, I soon discovered, there's no running away from yourself.
• 22:24
  Christine Newell (2): The book follows my journey from the southeastern suburbs of Melbourne to the affluent district of Gangnam in Seoul, where I faced a lot of unexpected challenges while adjusting to my new job and home.
• 22:35
  Christine Newell (2): It's an exploration of Korean life.
• 22:38
  Christine Newell (2): The food, landscape and culture, as well as a deeply personal story of travel and the ways it can transform us.
• 22:46
  Christine Newell (2): Five Seasons in Seoul is out now in all good bookstores.
• 22:50
  Christine Newell (2): I celebrated my book launch at the beginning of this month, and I've been overwhelmed by the feedback from some early readers who've told me that they related to my memoir on a very personal level.
• 23:00
  Christine Newell (2): That's one of the reasons I wrote it, and I'm looking forward to connecting with more readers in the next few months.
• 23:05
  Christine Newell (2): Thanks for listening and a huge thank you to Madeleine and Tina for providing an opportunity for the Debut crew to share their books with you all.
• 23:14
  Natasha Rai (2): Anyway and then after that I wasn't shortlisted and then I kind of submitted to a few other competitions again and uh, I left it.
• 23:22
  Natasha Rai (2): I just left it.
• 23:23
  Natasha Rai (2): And then in 2020, I decided to do a rewrite because I was like, you know what I'm, I'm not done with it.
• 23:28
  Natasha Rai (2): I'm not done with it.
• 23:28
  Natasha Rai (2): Were you tempted to
• 23:29
  Madeleine Cleary: put it down?
• 23:30
  Madeleine Cleary: Was there, there must have been that temptation.
• 23:32
  Madeleine Cleary: Cause after going through all of this, getting to the end of it and yeah.
• 23:37
  Madeleine Cleary: Well, I'm
• 23:37
  Natasha Rai (2): just going
• 23:38
  Madeleine Cleary: to slide another tip
• 23:39
  Natasha Rai (2): in when you, when you can't see your manuscript anymore, when you cannot figure out what isn't working, cause you know, it isn't working.
• 23:46
  Natasha Rai (2): Cause that's the feedback you're getting.
• 23:49
  Natasha Rai (2): Put it away.
• 23:49
  There's
• 23:50
  Natasha Rai (2): no urgency.
• 23:51
  Natasha Rai (2): There was no rush.
• 23:52
  Natasha Rai (2): Nothing will happen.
• 23:53
  Natasha Rai (2): Just put it away for as long as you can handle it.
• 23:56
  Natasha Rai (2): I would say six months if you can handle being away from it, because it really was a revelation because I left it alone for a year.
• 24:06
  Natasha Rai (2): When I went back to it, I was just like, whoa, there is so much I can do with this now.
• 24:11
  Madeleine Cleary: Amazing.
• 24:11
  Madeleine Cleary: Having that insight so much, it's almost like a, you're having that helicopter perspective, the novel.
• 24:15
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 24:16
  Madeleine Cleary: Whereas when you are writing it and you are editing it every day, you're in in it.
• 24:21
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
• 24:21
  Madeleine Cleary: In
• 24:21
  Natasha Rai (2): that world.
• 24:22
  Natasha Rai (2): Yes.
• 24:22
  Natasha Rai (2): And I think it also, what it felt like coming back to it, was it, it, yes, it was my work, but there was also, I didn't remember writing some of it.
• 24:30
  Natasha Rai (2): Mm.
• 24:30
  Natasha Rai (2): But parts of it, I was like, oh.
• 24:32
  Natasha Rai (2): I don't remember writing that.
• 24:33
  Natasha Rai (2): So it really helps you have a distance and gets you thinking about it in a different way.
• 24:40
  Natasha Rai (2): Um, so yeah, 2020, 2020, and I met the most amazing editor in the on the planet.
• 24:47
  Natasha Rai (2): Sorry, all the other editors, um, Alison Fraser, who I was, she was recommended to me by a good friend who won a mentorship with her.
• 24:57
  Natasha Rai (2): And Ali basically.
• 24:59
  Natasha Rai (2): Reddit.
• 24:59
  Natasha Rai (2): So this was my next big boost.
• 25:01
  Natasha Rai (2): She read it.
• 25:02
  Natasha Rai (2): And on our first zoom chat, she just said to me in the most matter of fact tone.
• 25:06
  Natasha Rai (2): She wasn't trying to suck up.
• 25:08
  Natasha Rai (2): She wasn't being judgmental.
• 25:10
  Natasha Rai (2): She just went, Oh yeah, this will get published.
• 25:12
  Natasha Rai (2): She just said it in this way.
• 25:14
  Natasha Rai (2): And I'm like, really?
• 25:14
  Natasha Rai (2): She goes, Oh yeah, it does need some work, but it will definitely get picked up.
• 25:18
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh,
• 25:18
  Natasha Rai (2): I've just got shivers.
• 25:19
  Natasha Rai (2): I know.
• 25:20
  Natasha Rai (2): And I was just like, Oh my God.
• 25:21
  Natasha Rai (2): Oh my God.
• 25:23
  Natasha Rai (2): Anyway.
• 25:23
  Natasha Rai (2): And so we worked on that together.
• 25:26
  Natasha Rai (2): And then, um, there was a publisher introduction day, I think it's called.
• 25:31
  Natasha Rai (2): So Writing NSW still hosts these.
• 25:33
  Natasha Rai (2): So for all the baby writers out there and unpublished writers who are like, maybe should I do it?
• 25:39
  Natasha Rai (2): So what it is, it's a day where the publisher comes into the center and they really put a lot of resources into it.
• 25:47
  Natasha Rai (2): As in.
• 25:48
  Natasha Rai (2): They, they come in the editors, publishers, marketing team, and they run through what happens when you submit to them
• 25:54
  and
• 25:55
  Natasha Rai (2): they tell you what they have to do, how they have to think about it.
• 25:58
  Natasha Rai (2): So someone from their sales team comes, the acquisitions team comes, and the best part is you get to submit an excerpt of your work and you get one on one time.
• 26:08
  Natasha Rai (2): No, with a, uh, with a member of the team.
• 26:11
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh, that is invaluable.
• 26:13
  Madeleine Cleary: That is amazing.
• 26:14
  Madeleine Cleary: It's invaluable.
• 26:14
  Madeleine Cleary: You get all the information and then Yeah, exactly.
• 26:17
  Natasha Rai (2): Amazing.
• 26:18
  Natasha Rai (2): So you submit beforehand.
• 26:19
  Natasha Rai (2): So I, it was Pantera and I had my eye Panera for a while because they publish such eclectic.
• 26:26
  Natasha Rai (2): unique books.
• 26:28
  Natasha Rai (2): And I really loved their, they were almost not aggressive, but they're almost hungry for new voices, Australian stories.
• 26:36
  Natasha Rai (2): And I'm like, this sounds like a nice fit.
• 26:38
  Natasha Rai (2): So I submitted my excerpt and I met with the excellent Kate Cuthbert, who was an editor at Pantera, sadly not there anymore.
• 26:45
  Natasha Rai (2): And we had a seven minute chat and I actually submitted something else.
• 26:50
  Natasha Rai (2): It wasn't even onslaught.
• 26:52
  Natasha Rai (2): And she said, I love this.
• 26:55
  Natasha Rai (2): Can I see the rest of it?
• 26:56
  Natasha Rai (2): And I panicked and went, no, because it's not ready.
• 26:59
  Natasha Rai (2): And she said, well, in your bio, you mentioned onslaught what's happening with that.
• 27:03
  Natasha Rai (2): And at the time it was in a competition and being as I am a stickler for the rules.
• 27:08
  Natasha Rai (2): I said, I'm not allowed to show it to you.
• 27:11
  Natasha Rai (2): And she's like, show it to me immediately.
• 27:13
  Natasha Rai (2): I'm like, okay.
• 27:16
  Natasha Rai (2): Um, so that was the Friday and on Tuesday she, uh, rang me and said.
• 27:21
  Natasha Rai (2): I love Onslaught.
• 27:22
  Natasha Rai (2): I want to take her to Acquisitions.
• 27:23
  Natasha Rai (2): I'm like, what?
• 27:25
  Natasha Rai (2): Um, So she, she came back to you in three days.
• 27:28
  Natasha Rai (2): Yep.
• 27:28
  Natasha Rai (2): She was like, I read it all weekend.
• 27:29
  Natasha Rai (2): Oh my God.
• 27:32
  Natasha Rai (2): Oh my God.
• 27:33
  Natasha Rai (2): Um, okay.
• 27:34
  Natasha Rai (2): So after that, things moved very fast.
• 27:38
  Natasha Rai (2): I went to Acquisitions and then at Acquisitions, I was told.
• 27:41
  Natasha Rai (2): It's not a no, but it's not a yes.
• 27:47
  Madeleine Cleary: It's like, you know, you get these highs and then it just like comes down.
• 27:50
  Madeleine Cleary: It's the roller coaster.
• 27:51
  Natasha Rai (2): So you just got to like weather, weather it out.
• 27:52
  Natasha Rai (2): And then, um, and then I was highly commended in the other competition.
• 27:57
  Natasha Rai (2): Oh my gosh.
• 27:58
  Natasha Rai (2): Yes, I was just like, Oh my God, what do I do?
• 28:01
  Natasha Rai (2): And even the highly commended, I always find this stuff out in the weirdest ways.
• 28:05
  Natasha Rai (2): No one called me, no one emailed me.
• 28:07
  Natasha Rai (2): I was happy to be scrolling on Instagram and saw the announcement from the competition going, and we have a highly commended Natasha Rai.
• 28:14
  Natasha Rai (2): I'm like, what?
• 28:16
  Natasha Rai (2): And at that point I had, cause I've always been quite.
• 28:20
  Natasha Rai (2): And not anxious, nervous about approaching publishers because they just seem like, you know, God's so not this time.
• 28:25
  Natasha Rai (2): I was like, you know what, stuff it.
• 28:26
  Natasha Rai (2): I'm just going to be really brave.
• 28:28
  Natasha Rai (2): So I emailed the publisher and I went, hi, I've been highly commended for your prize.
• 28:33
  Natasha Rai (2): Can we have a chat?
• 28:34
  Natasha Rai (2): And so we had a chat and she gave me feedback.
• 28:37
  Natasha Rai (2): And at the same time, Pantera gave me feedback.
• 28:40
  Natasha Rai (2): And the two feedbacks.
• 28:42
  Natasha Rai (2): Yeah.
• 28:42
  Natasha Rai (2): We're totally different.
• 28:43
  Natasha Rai (2): Oh my gosh.
• 28:44
  Natasha Rai (2): One publisher wanted me to strip out to one point of view and the other publisher wanted me to beef up the points of view.
• 28:53
  Madeleine Cleary: Having read Onslaught, losing those points of view would have been soul destroying for the book.
• 29:00
  Natasha Rai (2): So I did go insane for a day because I thought I'm going to do both.
• 29:03
  Natasha Rai (2): I'm going to write a novel.
• 29:06
  Natasha Rai (2): How?
• 29:06
  Natasha Rai (2): How?
• 29:07
  Natasha Rai (2): I know that's what I mean.
• 29:08
  Natasha Rai (2): I went insane for a day.
• 29:09
  Natasha Rai (2): And then I spoke to Ali, my editor who worked with me, and I spoke to a few other writers, including Emily, who all went, calm your farm, look at the feedback.
• 29:19
  Natasha Rai (2): What do you want out of this book?
• 29:21
  Natasha Rai (2): How would you feel if your book was out in the world with one or both, with one of those?
• 29:28
  Natasha Rai (2): Structures.
• 29:29
  Natasha Rai (2): And I'm like, I know the structure I want,
• 29:31
  and
• 29:31
  Natasha Rai (2): I knew I understood the publisher that had said, can we just have one feedback I understood is another top tip.
• 29:37
  Natasha Rai (2): I'm going to slip it in now when you get feedback and it doesn't make sense to you panic, take the time to freak out, then go back and look at what it is they're trying to fix because the feedback itself may not make sense to you.
• 29:52
  Natasha Rai (2): But look at the theme or what it is that might be missing.
• 29:55
  Natasha Rai (2): So I realized what was missing was not that it did at one point of view was that the story was really unbalanced and.
• 30:04
  Natasha Rai (2): It needed more from the other characters.
• 30:07
  Natasha Rai (2): So I'm like, I know how to fix that.
• 30:09
  Natasha Rai (2): So then I took, I think, four months, five months to do that.
• 30:14
  Natasha Rai (2): I sent it back to both.
• 30:15
  Natasha Rai (2): And I said to the publisher that wanted one, I'm like, I didn't do what you asked me, but here's the problem.
• 30:19
  Natasha Rai (2): I think you've asked me to fix, which I think I've now done.
• 30:22
  Madeleine Cleary: And on your points of view, I just found.
• 30:25
  Madeleine Cleary: It's amazing the way you were able to keep the story going, because sometimes the story can get bogged down in multiple points of view and especially you were going across two timelines as well, but it was so seamless and I thought very equitable in the way that you did it.
• 30:42
  Madeleine Cleary: You really got the insight.
• 30:44
  Madeleine Cleary: So clearly you'd put a lot of attention into this.
• 30:47
  Natasha Rai (2): Yes, I did.
• 30:48
  Natasha Rai (2): Cause I knew it, cause then it became very clear to me on that.
• 30:51
  Natasha Rai (2): Now I understand.
• 30:52
  Natasha Rai (2): And Ali, of course, helped me figure out how do you beef up or how do you add to the other points of view without exactly what you said, without it dragging and getting bogged down.
• 31:01
  Natasha Rai (2): And so I went back to both, one publisher passed and Pantera, yeah, and Pantera was the one who said yes.
• 31:09
  Natasha Rai (2): And then I was in the UK at the time visiting family and they'd gone to acquisitions and then it was all quiet.
• 31:16
  Natasha Rai (2): And I was like, don't, don't hound Kate, just leave it.
• 31:19
  Natasha Rai (2): But what I did know was the no is very fast, but the no had not come.
• 31:24
  Natasha Rai (2): So I'm like.
• 31:25
  Natasha Rai (2): Oh my God.
• 31:26
  Natasha Rai (2): It means they're deliberating, which means there's a chance.
• 31:28
  Natasha Rai (2): Oh my God.
• 31:30
  Natasha Rai (2): And on the 10th of May, 2023, I've got an, it was in the morning.
• 31:34
  Natasha Rai (2): I was staying at my friend's house in London.
• 31:36
  Natasha Rai (2): I was in my pajamas.
• 31:37
  Natasha Rai (2): And
• 31:37
  Madeleine Cleary: I love that you know, the date.
• 31:38
  Madeleine Cleary: I
• 31:41
  Natasha Rai (2): woke up in the morning.
• 31:42
  Natasha Rai (2): There was an email from Kate going, can we have a chat next week?
• 31:44
  Natasha Rai (2): And I'm like, Nope, I'm getting on a plane back to Australia, which means I cannot talk to you till whatever day next week.
• 31:49
  Natasha Rai (2): And I will not wait.
• 31:51
  Natasha Rai (2): She's like, let's get on a zoom now.
• 31:53
  Natasha Rai (2): And I'm like, My hair, I mean, my pajamas, just I don't care.
• 31:57
  Natasha Rai (2): And so we got on zoom and she said, we would love to publish you.
• 32:01
  Natasha Rai (2): And I just screamed and screamed.
• 32:04
  Natasha Rai (2): And all I could think of was I'm alone in my friend's house and there's no one here to witness this moment.
• 32:09
  Natasha Rai (2): It was the best moment, not ever, but very close.
• 32:13
  Madeleine Cleary: So this is a journey that's taken six years from the day that you finished on sort, uh, until getting the book deal, which is an incredible feat.
• 32:23
  Madeleine Cleary: And obviously, you know, you've gone through that rollercoaster, what, what was helpful for you to continue persisting with, with onslaught?
• 32:34
  Madeleine Cleary: Like, was there something that really helped you?
• 32:38
  Natasha Rai (2): There were two things, I think, looking back, one was my own.
• 32:41
  Natasha Rai (2): Um, feeling that it was, it was worth telling because I know, I know that lots of writers when their debut novels come out, say this was not the first novel I wrote.
• 32:51
  Natasha Rai (2): Um, and I, so I was aware of that, but I just had this feeling it had to be told it was relevant.
• 32:58
  Natasha Rai (2): It was an Australian story, an Australian story that we don't always get to hear.
• 33:03
  Natasha Rai (2): And the other thing, the other thing that kept me going was these moments of light, these competitions, this feedback that was saying, There is something worth telling here.
• 33:15
  Natasha Rai (2): It's just not ready yet.
• 33:17
  Natasha Rai (2): So I think those two things just helped keep pushing.
• 33:21
  Madeleine Cleary: So you signed in May, 2023.
• 33:24
  Madeleine Cleary: It's now March 2025,
• 33:27
  Natasha Rai (2): almost two years.
• 33:28
  Natasha Rai (2): I know.
• 33:29
  Natasha Rai (2): And she said, when I said, Oh, when, when are you thinking?
• 33:32
  Natasha Rai (2): She goes March, 2025.
• 33:33
  Natasha Rai (2): My heart did sink a little bit.
• 33:35
  Natasha Rai (2): I have to admit, I was like, Oh, okay.
• 33:38
  Natasha Rai (2): And then I thought, who cares?
• 33:39
  Natasha Rai (2): I've come this far.
• 33:40
  Natasha Rai (2): Like what's another year and a half.
• 33:42
  Madeleine Cleary: And have you, has the time been worthwhile,
• 33:45
  Natasha Rai (2): do you feel?
• 33:46
  Natasha Rai (2): Oh, for sure.
• 33:47
  Natasha Rai (2): Because I've learned now so much more about editing than I learned from all the editors I've worked with across, across that time.
• 33:54
  Natasha Rai (2): And I've been working on other stuff as well.
• 33:56
  Natasha Rai (2): So I just, I feel like I'm, I've got a good, Way of doing that, where I can just put things aside and say, I cannot worry about that.
• 34:05
  Natasha Rai (2): I cannot do anything more about that.
• 34:06
  Natasha Rai (2): Let me focus on this.
• 34:08
  Natasha Rai (2): And that helps me go.
• 34:09
  Natasha Rai (2): And of course, our debut crew having this amazing community has all been amazing.
• 34:15
  Madeleine Cleary: And I feel Natasha, your story throughout this journey of yours that you've gone down to your pathway to publication.
• 34:24
  Madeleine Cleary: The thing that stands out for me is the community for you and the connection.
• 34:28
  Madeleine Cleary: That's been a really big.
• 34:30
  Madeleine Cleary: support for you.
• 34:31
  Madeleine Cleary: And I think it's a testament to you that you go out there and make connections.
• 34:35
  Madeleine Cleary: There's a reason why you were the second person to reach or first person to reach out to me, number two member of the debut crew.
• 34:42
  Madeleine Cleary: And the way that you had talked about your story, like you, you signed up to the courses the year in the novel with Emily McGuire, Emily, and you are now very good friends.
• 34:50
  Madeleine Cleary: As a result of that, you keep maintaining these connections.
• 34:53
  Madeleine Cleary: You met that wonderful editor who helped you along the way.
• 34:56
  Madeleine Cleary: Like all these people have.
• 34:58
  Madeleine Cleary: Come, and Kate, obviously your champion.
• 35:00
  Natasha Rai (2): Yes.
• 35:01
  Natasha Rai (2): She's in Pantera.
• 35:02
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
• 35:02
  Madeleine Cleary: So do you wanna talk a little bit about the community and how important that is?
• 35:06
  Natasha Rai (2): For sure.
• 35:06
  Natasha Rai (2): And this is one of my other top tips and I'm just sliding all into your episode.
• 35:11
  Natasha Rai (2): um, community is the thing because writing is obviously a solitary, um, exercise activity, but what it does listening to other writers talk about the writers is there is a thrill, a connection that feels so deep when somebody else.
• 35:29
  Natasha Rai (2): It's like, it's so true, isn't it?
• 35:39
  Natasha Rai (2): When you have somebody going, Oh my God, I totally understand it.
• 35:42
  Natasha Rai (2): You know, that timeline isn't working.
• 35:44
  Natasha Rai (2): Like, have you thought about, and you're having a discussion, a very serious discussion about something that is completely made up.
• 35:51
  Natasha Rai (2): There is nothing like it in the world.
• 35:53
  Natasha Rai (2): It is the most special thing ever.
• 35:56
  Natasha Rai (2): And so when you have that connection of people or people in your life that are willing to do that with you and you do that for them, and then of course it deepens, you read each other's work, you give feedback and you start to get a sense of somebody's style, somebody's habits, especially writing, I mean, and it just feels like a connection, like no other.
• 36:17
  Natasha Rai (2): And there'll be lots of false starts along the way, like, as a quick aside, years ago, I was trying to find my community in terms of swapping work to give feedback.
• 36:25
  Natasha Rai (2): And I found somebody online and we swapped our work.
• 36:30
  Natasha Rai (2): And two days before we had agreed the deadline to give the feedback, she said, I'm so sorry.
• 36:34
  Natasha Rai (2): I can't reach a manuscript.
• 36:35
  Natasha Rai (2): It's too triggering.
• 36:36
  Natasha Rai (2): And it was another manuscript.
• 36:37
  Natasha Rai (2): It wasn't even on sort.
• 36:39
  Natasha Rai (2): And I had taken the time, obviously to read her manuscript, to write detailed notes, to do all of it.
• 36:45
  Natasha Rai (2): And I was so crushed.
• 36:47
  Um, by
• 36:47
  Natasha Rai (2): that.
• 36:48
  Natasha Rai (2): So it is a little bit like dating for the single writers out there where you can meet people and it's not a good fit, but persevere, persevere, persevere.
• 36:58
  Madeleine Cleary: Emily McGuire once said to me when I met her for the first time in a, an event in Melbourne, we were talking about you, Natasha.
• 37:04
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh God.
• 37:05
  Madeleine Cleary: Okay.
• 37:06
  Madeleine Cleary: She said, you are a beautiful writer, but you're also an excellent reader.
• 37:12
  Madeleine Cleary: And you've read a lot of her early work.
• 37:14
  Madeleine Cleary: She said you are an incredible observer and great reader.
• 37:19
  Madeleine Cleary: Reading I think is another top tip, isn't it?
• 37:22
  Madeleine Cleary: When it comes to writing.
• 37:23
  Natasha Rai (2): I have met writers who are like, I don't read.
• 37:25
  Natasha Rai (2): I'm like, what?
• 37:26
  Natasha Rai (2): How can you possibly write anything?
• 37:28
  Natasha Rai (2): Oh yeah.
• 37:28
  Natasha Rai (2): I read, I read, I read.
• 37:30
  Natasha Rai (2): I mean, I think one of my biggest flaws with reading is I do tend to only read in my, in Genre, which is literary fiction.
• 37:38
  Natasha Rai (2): So I am trying to widen and broaden that.
• 37:41
  Natasha Rai (2): Um, but I love reading, like reading for me is like breathing.
• 37:44
  Natasha Rai (2): You know, when people say, Oh no, I've got to make time for it.
• 37:47
  Natasha Rai (2): And I'm like, it's like saying I'm going to make time to live.
• 37:49
  Natasha Rai (2): Like what?
• 37:50
  Natasha Rai (2): Um, yeah, I don't leave the house without a book in my bag or an audio book.
• 37:53
  Natasha Rai (2): If I don't carry a bag, like it's impossible.
• 37:56
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
• 37:57
  Madeleine Cleary: I totally understand.
• 37:59
  Madeleine Cleary: Okay.
• 38:00
  Madeleine Cleary: So your book's coming out in the world after so many years.
• 38:03
  Madeleine Cleary: What are you most excited about?
• 38:07
  Natasha Rai (2): I'm really excited about sharing the story.
• 38:10
  Natasha Rai (2): Um, with people, I'm excited about the idea that somebody might pick it up and say, Oh my God, that resonates with me, or that resonates with parts of my experience.
• 38:21
  Natasha Rai (2): And there is hope that there is a way to change.
• 38:25
  Natasha Rai (2): And just also just reading something that's really different.
• 38:29
  Natasha Rai (2): Australian stories, especially growing up, were either set in the bush or parts of cities that, and lives that had nothing to do with mine, that I really wanted because I thought that was what was the right thing for me to want.
• 38:42
  Natasha Rai (2): Um, so.
• 38:44
  Natasha Rai (2): Yeah, I think those things are what I'm most excited about.
• 38:47
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh, I am so excited to come out into the world and to tell everyone about how amazing it is.
• 38:53
  Madeleine Cleary: I just couldn't believe it's a debut.
• 38:54
  Madeleine Cleary: It's been through a lot of work.
• 38:57
  Natasha Rai (2): It has, it really has.
• 39:00
  Madeleine Cleary: And what are you writing next as well?
• 39:03
  Madeleine Cleary: I'm sure this will be a common question in all your interviews.
• 39:05
  Madeleine Cleary: What is it that you're working on now, Natasha?
• 39:08
  Natasha Rai (2): So, uh, because I'm me and I don't make life easy for myself, I'm working on two things actually.
• 39:15
  Natasha Rai (2): You're like Tina then.
• 39:16
  Natasha Rai (2): Oh yes, I guess so.
• 39:18
  Natasha Rai (2): Um, yeah.
• 39:19
  Natasha Rai (2): So one is something, a manuscript I've been working on for about four years, maybe even longer.
• 39:24
  Natasha Rai (2): Um, it's set across three timelines.
• 39:26
  Natasha Rai (2): I think I have a thing for timelines, Madeleine.
• 39:29
  Natasha Rai (2): You do.
• 39:29
  Natasha Rai (2): You do.
• 39:29
  Natasha Rai (2): You do it well though.
• 39:30
  Natasha Rai (2): So continue.
• 39:31
  Natasha Rai (2): Um, and I'm just struggling with one of the timelines, which is why it's taken me so long.
• 39:35
  Natasha Rai (2): And the other one is more, um, of a single timeline, single point of view.
• 39:42
  Natasha Rai (2): It's a meditation on grief.
• 39:43
  So
• 39:44
  Natasha Rai (2): I keep going back and forth because I feel differently about different things at certain times, but that's what I'm working on.
• 39:51
  Madeleine Cleary: I forgot to ask you as well.
• 39:53
  Madeleine Cleary: What, what was the inspiration behind the title?
• 39:56
  Natasha Rai (2): Ah, yes.
• 39:57
  Natasha Rai (2): So, um, I'm terrible at titles.
• 39:59
  Natasha Rai (2): Um, so I usually don't have any titles for anything.
• 40:02
  Natasha Rai (2): Um, I think it was called Untitled by Natasha Rack?
• 40:05
  Natasha Rai (2): Well, it was called Arch, I think, for ages, just as a file name.
• 40:09
  Natasha Rai (2): And it was, I was writing, I was writing a scene one day, and I just wrote without meaning to, I just wrote something about the sun coming out from behind the clouds, and she was hit by an onslaught of light.
• 40:19
  Natasha Rai (2): And I'm like, whoa, that sounds good.
• 40:23
  Natasha Rai (2): I know the scene.
• 40:24
  Madeleine Cleary: It was in the Blue Mountains.
• 40:25
  Natasha Rai (2): Yes, that's right.
• 40:26
  Natasha Rai (2): And I'm like, that's it.
• 40:28
  Natasha Rai (2): That's the title.
• 40:29
  Natasha Rai (2): So that's how it came about.
• 40:30
  Madeleine Cleary: Love it.
• 40:31
  Madeleine Cleary: Okay, so you have given us so many top tips already.
• 40:35
  Madeleine Cleary: Do you have a final top tip, Natasha?
• 40:39
  Natasha Rai (2): Keep going.
• 40:40
  Natasha Rai (2): You just have to keep going.
• 40:41
  Natasha Rai (2): If you really want to be traditionally published, you have to persevere.
• 40:46
  Natasha Rai (2): Take the time you need when you get disappointed.
• 40:50
  Natasha Rai (2): Take the time, take a day, take a week, take a month, whatever you need, and allow that to come in, because you know some people, I think sometimes you think, well you have to keep going, which means you can't acknowledge those feelings, you totally should, because disappointment is real, it's crushing, but don't let it bow you out, and don't let it break you down, just use it as a way to say, well you know what, it's No, I still have something to say, and I'm going to keep going.
• 41:15
  Madeleine Cleary: I want to write down all your advice, Natasha, and just put it on wall on my walls in my office.
• 41:21
  Madeleine Cleary: Like, I feel like you're, you have some great quotes to put around.
• 41:25
  Madeleine Cleary: I could listen to you talk for days.
• 41:29
  Natasha Rai (2): Well, it's been a real pleasure to be on here and talking to you like this.
• 41:32
  Natasha Rai (2): I've really loved it.
• 41:34
  Madeleine Cleary: I have loved it as well.
• 41:35
  Madeleine Cleary: So thank you for joining us, Natasha.
• 41:36
  Madeleine Cleary: Thank you, Madeleine.
• 41:37
  Madeleine Cleary: Good
• 41:37
  Natasha Rai (2): luck.
• 41:39
  Tina Strachan (2): Thanks.
• 41:40
  Tina Strachan (2): Thank you for listening to the book deal podcast.
• 41:43
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• 41:52
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