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How to save at restaurants if you're burnt out on cooking · Silver FM 100.6

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  Speaker 3: Do you remember when we would go to that bar
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  Speaker 3: in Philly after work for a happy hour?
• 0:32
  Speaker 4: Oh, big time.
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  Speaker 5: The cheap pizzas and the generous beer pores.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I remember that the happy hour deals were pretty
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  Speaker 3: were pretty key. I actually liked the pizza.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, it was good at the time.
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  Speaker 3: I remember I would get a whole one from myself
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, like do some defensive maneuvers.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, like the arm around the plate.
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  Speaker 3: I remember people being like, you get really quiet when
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  Speaker 3: you eat.
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  Speaker 4: I'm like, yeah, focus, right, I don't want you interrupting me.
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  Speaker 6: All right, Well, you're listening to Life Kit.
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  Speaker 3: This is Mary el Sagada I'm here with Joe Hernandez.
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  Speaker 3: We used to work together back at WHYY. We were
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: both reporters at the time, right, yeah, and Joe, you
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: have been reporting on this topic actually, right, like on
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: food and how much we pay for it basically, right.
• 1:34
  Speaker 5: Well, we started thinking about how everything is so expensive
• 1:38
  Speaker 5: right now, and specifically food, how food prices are just
• 1:41
  Speaker 5: going up, and you know, we were thinking about sort
• 1:44
  Speaker 5: of what are people feeling about this right now? What
• 1:46
  Speaker 5: sorts of strategies are they using to deal with this
• 1:50
  Speaker 5: moment when it feels like food has gotten much more expensive?
• 1:54
  Speaker 5: But we all need to eat, And part of that
• 1:57
  Speaker 5: was how to go out and not spend a ton
• 2:00
  Speaker 5: of money because many of us don't want to cook
• 2:02
  Speaker 5: every single meal of the day and every single day
• 2:05
  Speaker 5: of the week, so we're going to go out sometimes.
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  Speaker 5: So how can you do that a little bit more
• 2:08
  Speaker 5: affordably than you otherwise would?
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, because we know generally that eating at a restaurant
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: or getting takeout is going to be more expensive than
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: cooking at home. But you can't give the advice never
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: do it.
• 2:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 2:22
  Speaker 5: I think some people don't do it at all, but
• 2:24
  Speaker 5: many people, myself included, will go out to a restaurant
• 2:27
  Speaker 5: sometimes or get takeout, and there are benefits to just
• 2:31
  Speaker 5: being in a restaurant. I talked to Hannah Garth about this.
• 2:35
  Speaker 5: She's a Princeton University anthropology professor who does research on
• 2:39
  Speaker 5: food access, specifically in Los Angeles.
• 2:42
  Speaker 7: For a lot of people, it's just about breaking from
• 2:45
  Speaker 7: the routine and the monotony of eating at home. It's
• 2:49
  Speaker 7: about alleviating that the burden of the work of cooking
• 2:53
  Speaker 7: a meal and cleaning up after the meal.
• 2:55
  Speaker 4: But there's also a social benefit here.
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  Speaker 5: Restaurants are what's known as third space, which is an
• 3:01
  Speaker 5: area outside of our home or where we work, where
• 3:04
  Speaker 5: we interact with other people, and those casual interactions with
• 3:08
  Speaker 5: strangers with acquaintances, they can actually boost our mental health.
• 3:12
  Speaker 4: A little bit. Yeah.
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: I definitely found that when we were working together, it
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: was like, you'd have such a long day, and if
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: every day I just had to go home and kind
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: of cook by myself, I think that can get pretty lonely.
• 3:25
  Speaker 5: Yeah, And just even small talk with a stranger, or
• 3:29
  Speaker 5: talking with your waiter, or turning to the table next
• 3:32
  Speaker 5: to you and asking them how the dessert was, you know,
• 3:35
  Speaker 5: those kinds of small interactions can can just make us
• 3:37
  Speaker 5: feel better and make us feel like part of a community.
• 3:41
  Speaker 3: On this episode of Life Kit, how to Eat Out
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: on a Budget. All right, Joe, so what is your
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: first tip?
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  Speaker 5: So the first tip that I heard from multiple experts
• 3:51
  Speaker 5: is think about why you want to eat out in
• 3:53
  Speaker 5: the first place. That's what Kimberly Palmer of Nerdwallet told me.
• 3:57
  Speaker 5: Are you going to try like a buzzy new restaurant
• 4:00
  Speaker 5: or are you just out to socialize with your friends
• 4:02
  Speaker 5: or your family members. Because if it's just to socialize,
• 4:06
  Speaker 5: you get some more flexibility in choosing how you eventually
• 4:10
  Speaker 5: decide to eat out.
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  Speaker 6: You might be getting just as much value and enjoyment
• 4:14
  Speaker 6: by going out for a less expensive pizza than a
• 4:17
  Speaker 6: nicer restaurant. So just putting some time into thinking about
• 4:20
  Speaker 6: why you're going out, what you want to get out
• 4:22
  Speaker 6: of it, that can help guide your decisions.
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  Speaker 5: And your decision might be to not go out at all.
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  Speaker 5: Kimberly says she sometimes just orders catering trays from a
• 4:32
  Speaker 5: favorite local spot and has people over to her house,
• 4:34
  Speaker 5: and then any leftovers that come from that she just
• 4:37
  Speaker 5: has for lunch the next day. But if you are
• 4:40
  Speaker 5: going to go out. She and others say, first figure
• 4:43
  Speaker 5: out that why what you want to get out of
• 4:45
  Speaker 5: the experience, and then give yourself a budget.
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: Is there an amount that the experts you spoke to
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: recommend for how much we should budget for eating out?
• 4:54
  Speaker 4: Not exactly.
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  Speaker 5: I mean, I think it's going to be different for everybody,
• 4:58
  Speaker 5: but there are some strategies for how you could think
• 5:01
  Speaker 5: about it. So one is to look back at your
• 5:04
  Speaker 5: spending habits and see how much you've been spending on
• 5:07
  Speaker 5: food outside of your home, and then that would kind
• 5:09
  Speaker 5: of be your starting point if you want to save
• 5:11
  Speaker 5: money from there, and that might also highlight some patterns
• 5:14
  Speaker 5: for you. So if you've been buying a salad or
• 5:17
  Speaker 5: something every day at work, you could start packing your
• 5:19
  Speaker 5: lunch more often.
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• 7:06
  Speaker 3: I always end up eating these slot bowls nar O
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: office when I forget to pack my lunch, and they're
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: just like they're at least fifteen dollars and I never
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: like them, and it's just too much dressing a lot
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: of the time, so by the time you got halfway
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: through the bowl, you're like, I don't want to eat
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: any of the rest of this, you know, yep, And
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: that for me is really just about the convenience. It's
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: like I didn't have time to throw together lunch that day,
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: which I mean it is its own reason to eat out, right,
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: You don't have to cook or plan ahead for that meal.
• 7:35
  Speaker 5: Yeah, And if it's worth it to you to spend
• 7:38
  Speaker 5: that money and save yourself the time, then it's worth it.
• 7:41
  Speaker 5: But if you would rather not be spending that money
• 7:43
  Speaker 5: and you just do it because you're you know, you
• 7:45
  Speaker 5: don't have any lunch prepared for that day, all the
• 7:48
  Speaker 5: experts I spoke to said one of the most important
• 7:50
  Speaker 5: things that you can do is plan ahead, and in
• 7:53
  Speaker 5: this case that could mean like making a big batch
• 7:55
  Speaker 5: of lunches over the weekend and then bringing it with
• 7:58
  Speaker 5: you to work.
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: And then if you do that, I mean, you're saving
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: yourself more of your eating out budget for stuff that
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: you'd actually enjoy.
• 8:08
  Speaker 5: Right, You can kind of pick and choose rather than
• 8:10
  Speaker 5: be limited because you ended up spending forty five dollars
• 8:14
  Speaker 5: the previous week getting those.
• 8:16
  Speaker 4: Lunches that you just didn't pack.
• 8:18
  Speaker 5: And then there's kind of like the question of where
• 8:21
  Speaker 5: is that eating out budget Because one of the experts
• 8:24
  Speaker 5: I spoke to, financial counselor, Lindsey Plum, says she keeps
• 8:27
  Speaker 5: her eating out budget separate from her grocery budget. So
• 8:31
  Speaker 5: the thinking there is that your grocery budget is kind
• 8:35
  Speaker 5: of its own thing, and that's just for groceries, and
• 8:38
  Speaker 5: separating it from your eating out money and other whatever
• 8:41
  Speaker 5: other parts of your budget you have means you're not
• 8:43
  Speaker 5: dipping into your grocery money for expensive restaurants or other
• 8:46
  Speaker 5: costs that are just for fun.
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  Speaker 11: My grocery money does not touch I call it our
• 8:52
  Speaker 11: our spend with joy money, the spend with joy money.
• 8:55
  Speaker 11: I get to spend truly with joy, you know, not
• 8:57
  Speaker 11: worrying whether or not I can pay my mortgage or
• 9:00
  Speaker 11: buy the groceries, or you know, if the kids need leats,
• 9:04
  Speaker 11: because we have a sports account and that's the one
• 9:07
  Speaker 11: that's going to pay for the cleats. Our grocery account
• 9:09
  Speaker 11: is going to pay.
• 9:10
  Speaker 3: For our groceries.
• 9:11
  Speaker 5: And then there are a few kind of other things
• 9:13
  Speaker 5: that the personal finance experts told me about budgeting. Sometimes
• 9:17
  Speaker 5: restaurants will have these loyalty programs that offer discounts or
• 9:21
  Speaker 5: free items, so you could sign up for those, and
• 9:23
  Speaker 5: then some credit card rewards programs also give customers extra
• 9:26
  Speaker 5: points for spending money in restaurants.
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: I think one problem that people often have when they
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: do go to restaurants is that they overspend. What can
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: you do to avoid that?
• 9:38
  Speaker 5: So one more thing before you even show up is
• 9:41
  Speaker 5: to look at them menu. Because the experts that I
• 9:44
  Speaker 5: spoke to, they all said preparation is key to saving money.
• 9:48
  Speaker 5: So if you look at the menu ahead of time,
• 9:50
  Speaker 5: you can kind of come up with a game plan
• 9:52
  Speaker 5: of what you might want to order a little bit better.
• 9:54
  Speaker 5: You're not under pressure to do it when the waiter
• 9:57
  Speaker 5: is like standing right next to you waiting for you
• 9:59
  Speaker 5: to make a decision about whatever it is that you want.
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: I feel like I do that anyway, just because I'm
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: always super hungry. I'm trying to game plan, like, Okay,
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: we're gonna get in, and I know what I want immediately,
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: I don't have to the waiter just even have to
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: hand me a menu, and then I'm like is it
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: ready yet? Is it right?
• 10:19
  Speaker 4: Right?
• 10:19
  Speaker 5: And that's another thing, like showing up too hungry, you
• 10:23
  Speaker 5: might order too much. You know, your stomach might get
• 10:27
  Speaker 5: ahead of your brain a little bit.
• 10:28
  Speaker 3: There, I've done that.
• 10:30
  Speaker 5: Some other tips like sharing plates to save money, or
• 10:33
  Speaker 5: skipping drinks, or even using the time of day to
• 10:35
  Speaker 5: your advantage, like food deals tend to be a little
• 10:39
  Speaker 5: bit cheaper during happy hours, for example.
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: I find that sometimes it can cost more if I
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: want to eat healthy when I'm eating out. I wonder
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: what tips did the experts have for dining out on
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: a budget and also trying to eat healthy food right?
• 10:55
  Speaker 5: And there are ways to do this, so registered dietitian
• 10:59
  Speaker 5: Amy Loss told me that she encourages people to build
• 11:04
  Speaker 5: their restaurant meals around protein and fiber. Those are the
• 11:08
  Speaker 5: things that will kind of keep you full. And one
• 11:10
  Speaker 5: way to do that is what she calls the balanced plate.
• 11:14
  Speaker 5: Half the plate is non starchy vegetables, a quarter is protein,
• 11:18
  Speaker 5: and a quarter is complex carbs. And some cuisines like
• 11:22
  Speaker 5: Mediterranean might make that easier than others. And it can
• 11:26
  Speaker 5: be hard to actually get that balance if you're ordering
• 11:28
  Speaker 5: something like a super a chili where you don't really
• 11:31
  Speaker 5: have control over that ratio, like a half to a
• 11:34
  Speaker 5: quarter to a quarter. Just making sure you're hitting all
• 11:37
  Speaker 5: those categories of non starchy vegetables, protein, and complex carbs
• 11:41
  Speaker 5: will help you.
• 11:42
  Speaker 4: She says.
• 11:43
  Speaker 5: The key to making this possible, same thing with keeping
• 11:45
  Speaker 5: track of your spending is preparing ahead of time, reading
• 11:49
  Speaker 5: the menu ahead of time, and then making that plan.
• 11:51
  Speaker 12: Especially when we go to a restaurant and we get
• 11:54
  Speaker 12: there and we are really hungry, our hunger hormones are
• 11:58
  Speaker 12: really loud and they are telling us I want give
• 12:00
  Speaker 12: me all the carbohydrates, give me the simple things, give
• 12:03
  Speaker 12: me the biggest source of fuel. So it can kind
• 12:05
  Speaker 12: of muddle in our brain what we are choices in
• 12:08
  Speaker 12: terms of making the healthiest choice.
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I feel that for sure. It can be
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: hard if you are ordering an entree because they just
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: played it the way they played it and they like
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: give you the amount of protein or rice or whatever
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: that they're going to give you. Although I guess you
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: can you can start to notice patterns like in the
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: places you go and maybe just get like a protein
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: heavy appetizer or something right.
• 12:32
  Speaker 5: And also, I mean, for me, if a plate of
• 12:35
  Speaker 5: food comes out, it's going to be hard for me
• 12:37
  Speaker 5: to like not eat that plate of food. But one
• 12:39
  Speaker 5: of her tips is you can get a to go
• 12:43
  Speaker 5: box right when your food comes out and put half
• 12:45
  Speaker 5: of it in the to go box, and that will
• 12:47
  Speaker 5: kind of control how much you're gonna eat while you're
• 12:49
  Speaker 5: sitting there. And by the way, there's a couple other
• 12:52
  Speaker 5: small tips that Lawson suggested, such as you can ask
• 12:57
  Speaker 5: to customize things. You could get protein from chicken or
• 13:00
  Speaker 5: beans rather than steak, for example. And then if you
• 13:03
  Speaker 5: skip the sugary drinks altogether, you're gonna save yourself money
• 13:07
  Speaker 5: and it.
• 13:07
  Speaker 4: Will be healthier.
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: We'll have more life kit after the break.
• 13:28
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• 13:52
  Speaker 3: Okay, well let's talk about takeout now. It can be
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: so expensive. So how do you save money this?
• 14:00
  Speaker 5: I mean, one of the simplest ways to save on
• 14:02
  Speaker 5: takeout is to pick up your order yourself. If you
• 14:04
  Speaker 5: can do that the website lending Tree found that fast
• 14:07
  Speaker 5: food and fast casual delivery orders in the top ten
• 14:10
  Speaker 5: US metro areas cost nearly eighty percent more than if customers.
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: Had picked them up eighty percent a lot, right, yeah.
• 14:18
  Speaker 5: And so you know, if the convenience of it is
• 14:21
  Speaker 5: necessary for you in that moment, you can factor those
• 14:24
  Speaker 5: fees into your budget. But for a lot of us,
• 14:27
  Speaker 5: some or many of those delivery orders are kind of
• 14:30
  Speaker 5: spur the moment. It's just something that you have to
• 14:32
  Speaker 5: do because you forgot to cook or you don't have
• 14:34
  Speaker 5: the energy to cook, and you.
• 14:35
  Speaker 4: May end up spending more than you intended. Yeah.
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: I have often spent forty five dollars on a delivery
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: meal and then it gets there and it's mostly rice.
• 14:44
  Speaker 5: Right, Yeah, it's not fun. And actually some of the
• 14:48
  Speaker 5: tips we got from readers touch on this about how
• 14:50
  Speaker 5: like you could get takeout for the part of the
• 14:54
  Speaker 5: meal that maybe you don't want to cook or can't
• 14:56
  Speaker 5: cook yourself, and then supplement it at home with something
• 14:59
  Speaker 5: that is easy for to make. So, for example, you
• 15:01
  Speaker 5: could get a pizza and then at home make a
• 15:04
  Speaker 5: salad or something like that.
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: And I also think about not just what's easier to make,
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: but what is more expensive versus less expensive? Right, Like,
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: sometimes I'll go and I'll get like a protein heavy
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: appetizer like meat on a stick from the tie place
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: or the Greek place, and that maybe cost me ten bucks,
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: and then I make the rice at home because rice
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: is cheap. But if they put the two together at
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: the restaurant, then they call it an entree.
• 15:31
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 15:31
  Speaker 5: This kind of touches on the idea of like planning,
• 15:36
  Speaker 5: like how you're going to use this food because you're
• 15:39
  Speaker 5: you're just buying basically what you don't maybe don't have
• 15:42
  Speaker 5: at home, or what would take longer for you to
• 15:43
  Speaker 5: cook or be more expensive for you to get, and
• 15:46
  Speaker 5: then supplementing it like maybe not every takeout.
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: Meal has to be a full meal.
• 15:52
  Speaker 5: And then there's kind of another phenomenon that's been popping
• 15:55
  Speaker 5: up related to this in the last few years, which
• 15:57
  Speaker 5: is people getting catering trays from places like Chipotle and
• 16:01
  Speaker 5: Texas Roadhouse and then like meal prepping their lunches with
• 16:05
  Speaker 5: that foods and they say it saves them time that
• 16:09
  Speaker 5: they would otherwise be cooking, and it could even be
• 16:11
  Speaker 5: cheaper for them than going to the grocery store.
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: It's like hybrid eating out right. Interesting. Any other favorite
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: tips that you've learned in reporting.
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah, we heard a lot.
• 16:22
  Speaker 5: So for example, go out for breakfast or lunch instead
• 16:26
  Speaker 5: of dinner because it's often cheaper and the restaurant might
• 16:29
  Speaker 5: be more chill at that time of day, you know,
• 16:32
  Speaker 5: instead of going for dinner, meet up for dessert. You
• 16:35
  Speaker 5: can use restaurant apps and coupons limit going out. And
• 16:40
  Speaker 5: then commentors were a little bit split on whether to
• 16:43
  Speaker 5: just make a meal of side dishes and appetizers to
• 16:45
  Speaker 5: save money, or to skip side dishes and appetizers and
• 16:49
  Speaker 5: just order entrees to save money. But it seems like
• 16:53
  Speaker 5: people do both of those strategies. A few other things,
• 16:55
  Speaker 5: order off the kids menu if the restaurant lets you.
• 16:58
  Speaker 5: Some people were doing that. Consider veget harry in options
• 17:01
  Speaker 5: because they might be cheaper as well.
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: Joe Hernandez, thank you so much.
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: For this, Yeah, no problem.
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: Thanks, that was reporter Joe Hernandez. All right, time for
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: a recap take away one. Take a look at your
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: spending habits when you dine out. Why are you doing it?
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: Cut back when the choice doesn't align with your values,
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: Like if you're buying a mediocre lunch every day because
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: you haven't made the habit of meal prepping take away two.
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: Create a dining out budget that's separate from your grocery budget,
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: your rent budget, or any money that you have to
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: spend every month. The money you allot to this dining
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: out budget you can spend on dining out guilt free
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: take away.
• 17:50
  Speaker 5: Three.
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: Avoid overspending when you're out at a restaurant. Make a
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: plan before you go, look at the menu, go when
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: they are happy hour deals, and if you get a
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: big old plate of food, get it to go box
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: right away and put half of it away to have
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: as leftovers take away.
• 18:06
  Speaker 10: Four.
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: When you're getting takeout, avoid delivery whenever possible. That makes
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: it way more expensive. Pick up the food yourself if
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: you can, and take away five. You can also use
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: restaurant food strategically to supplement your eating at home. For instance,
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: I like to buy some chicken skewer appetizers and then
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: make rice or a salad at home. Some people get
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: catering trees and use them to meal prep. Think about
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: the items that are cheaper all a cart. I find
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: that you can often get meat sticks for a reasonable
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: price on their own, but then the restaurant adds some
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: rice and a wilted salad and charges three times as much. Okay,
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: and a few other tips. Go out for breakfast or
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: lunch instead of dinner because it's often cheaper, and order
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: off the kids menu. If you're allowed. That's our show.
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: Would you consider rate and reviewing Life Kit? It helps
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: us grow. Here's a review from listener one L. I'm
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: disappointed that I'm just now discovering this podcast. What great
• 19:10
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  Speaker 3: a review in your podcast app right now. This episode
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  Speaker 3: of Life Kit was produced by Margaret Serino. Our digital
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: editor is Malika garib and our visuals editor is c J. Rikolon.
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: Megan Kane is our senior supervising editor, and Lauren Gonzalez
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: is our executive producer. Our production team also includes Andy Tagle, Claremorrationchniter,
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: and Sylvie Douglas. Engineering support comes from Jimmy Keely, fact
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: checking by Andrea Lopez Crusado. I'm Mariel Sagata, Thanks for listening.
• 19:58
  Speaker 15: Hi. It's Terry Gross, host of Fresh Air. Hey take
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  Speaker 15: a break from the twenty four hour news cycle with
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• 20:19
  Speaker 14: Recently, cybersecurity researchers discovered a striking computer virus seemingly related
• 20:25
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  Speaker 5: Everything about this thing screams special.
• 20:34
  Speaker 14: A cunning cyber weapon meant to gaslight nuclear scientists. Listen
• 20:38
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