Latest / Gospel Talks Podcast / #91 - None Seek After God!?! Then Why Are We Talking About Evangelism?

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#91 - None Seek After God!?! Then Why Are We Talking About Evangelism? · Gospel Talks Podcast

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  we just finished a whole episode on nobody's really seeking after God.
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  That's not how we come out.
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  It's not it's not how we're bent.
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  But we end every episode by saying the harvest is plenteous, but the laborers are few.
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  What's in between that is this idea, this question of what does God's drawing people look like?
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  Because Jesus said he's drawing people.
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  Want to know what that looks like, what that means.
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  what the implications are theologically for that.
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  if you're one of those thoughtful Christians who've thought a lot about this topic, you've probably read some books or commentaries, theology books on it, this is for you.
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  You're going to get some biblical answers.
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  So here we go.
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  Welcome everybody to Gospel Talks Podcast, where we help Christians all over the world become more effective in relational evangelism and discipleship.
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  My name is George Binoca and with me today is Jeff
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  Musgrave, the author and founder of the exchange.
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  We're diving into a deep topic, so grab your scuba gear and join us in God's word.
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  Jeff, how you doing?
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  Doing good.
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  Good to see you today.
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  Good to see you too, brother.
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  Um, you know, Jesus said, No one comes to me unless the Father draws him.
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  What does that mean?
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  Yeah, yeah.
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  I I I I think that some of these concepts are so br big that sometimes it gets a little overwhelming.
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  but I maybe just to go back and review w where we ended up with the Bible says we're dead and trespasses and sin a and that they're it so in other words, if a person is dead,
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  they're
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  They're not looking for anything.
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  I mean, so spiritually, I'm I'm without Jesus, I'm I'm dead.
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  I don't have that uh capacity to uh look for him.
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  I'm looking, I have an empty spot, there's a human part of me that's alive.
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  and so that's why that verse has to say in verse four, but God in his great love and in his reach re
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  Rich mercy reaches out and woos us.
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  So I think there's a couple of things that he's actually doing.
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  Number one, he wants he he I like to use the word woo, that's drawing, uh and and then the word crowd, uh, that's kind of pushing.
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  And I don't know, it God doesn't push us to to anything, but he does push us to conclusions.
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  Does that make sense?
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  In other words, there are times in which I'm kind of walking contrary to God, and he just boxes me into a corner in which I have to see what it is he wants me to look at.
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  And so that's why I I like to use the the words it's like one is is loving and beautiful and and I've watched people come to Jesus that path and it's just it's just beautiful.
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  And then there are others that get crowded to Jesus, and that's really usually a little ugly.
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  Uh, but
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  The outcome is the same.
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  Jesus gets them.
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  And here's here's what I I think is being done during that wooing or crowding process.
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  And number one, he wants them to see the real needs of their soul.
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  and and then he wants them to turn to the only one who can meet that soul need.
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  that it
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  When people are looking in all the wrong places, like we talked about last week, the they're they're actually more lost.
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  They they get further and further and further away.
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  It's when they see the real soul need and recognize that that this is not a need that's gonna be met in this world, on this plane, stuffing worldly physical.
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  concepts into my life, that's not going to meet it.
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  Or even finding the religions that have been created in this world, that's not going to meet that need.
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  And therefore I have to turn to the only one that can meet the need.
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  And of course we know that is God.
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  Hm.
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  Yeah.
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  Um, I I think that's that's so important.
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  At our core we're spiritual beings.
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  So it makes total sense that all the things that actually answer the deep questions of our soul are spiritual in nature.
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  that the solution is spiritual.
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  and and I you know, sometimes we wonder, is God is God actually doing that?
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  I mean, it didn't look like it to me physically.
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  And I think we just have to remember this is the same God who said, For God so loved the world that he gave his only son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have
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  everlasting life.
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  God Jesus not only cared about the needs of people's souls, but he literally came to earth.
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  I you know, there's in my life.
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  There are people who tell me they care.
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  And then there are people who show up.
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  And Jesus showed up.
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  So we don't have to wonder whether or not He He is doing anything about this.
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  Jesus came to earth to experience our pain, to meet our need.
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  And, you know, the Bible tells us that God says, I have loved you with an everlasting love.
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  Therefore, I have continued in my faithfulness to you.
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  I mean, that's what the love of God demands that he do.
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  The book of Hosea is a beautiful book.
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  I mean, Hosea's wife was an adulteress.
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  She had walked away from him.
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  She was looking for every place in the world that she could have her needs met besides her husband.
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  And he came and literally purchased her.
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  out of the slave market that she had put herself in through her own sinfulness and and loved her again.
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  That's the that's the picture of what God.
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  In fact, he says in at chapter 11 of that book, I led or literally drew them with cords of kindness and with bands of love.
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  That's that's that's what God is doing
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  uh in I don't know, you talked last week about the Exchange Bible study.
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  There's a there's a section in there, and I thought it would behoove us to to just read what that says.
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  As a person is studying this, even people who have told me at the beginning they're not real sure there's really a God.
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  by the time we get this far, this is in lesson three, we've been studying what the Bible says about God, it becomes more and more apparent.
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  That it's real.
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  And this it it comes in at after t introducing the concept of love, it says, even now God is drawing you to himself in love.
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  Won't you open your heart?
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  God created all of us for an appetite for his love that cannot be satisfied with anything but a intimate, loving relationship with him.
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  And I I think that's really where we get to is recognize that and
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  We're not even talking about how God does that yet.
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  We're just simply promising this is what the Bible tells us God is doing.
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  Love that.
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  so to dig down, let's I want to drill down for a second on what you're saying here.
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  Talk about God drawing somebody.
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  I mean, what are we actually talking about?
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  Like is it an emotion?
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  Is it a feeling?
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  Is it a thought?
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  Is it I mean what what what does that actually look like?
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  Yeah.
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  Uh when I saw this question, I thought, you know, we we often use physical pictures to paint spiritual realities.
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  And so when we use the words, do you sense God speaking to you?
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  Um, we we really are not meaning that our did you hear an audible voice?
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  do you know there's a there's a
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  uh we use words that sometimes are a little bit uh obscure.
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  Uh and so I think even the word drawing or the word wooing, those can those can be a little obscure.
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  Uh again, from the Exchange Bible studies.
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  So this is directly, this is at the end of every lesson.
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  we're encouraging people to just read the Bible and to let God talk to them.
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  And so, you know, having said those words, we have to
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  say, you know, God is real, he can do that.
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  He promises that he will convince you in your heart that certain things are true about himself and about you.
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  And I I think last week we talked about, you know, what does that desire of the heart look like?
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  And part of it becomes an an understanding and a real convincement.
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  So God starts telling us: here are the truths.
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  This is an internal work that he does.
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  He's not gonna speak to and I'm going back to quoting again.
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  He will not speak to you in an audible voice, but you will have a growing awareness of what the Bible says is true.
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  And I've often said it this way it's almost like there's this voice in the back of your head that says, That's true.
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  That's true, and you know it.
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  And and it sometimes people, and again from the book.
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  you might even feel a tugging or a squeezing of your heart.
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  That's that's the Lord.
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  That's how God talks to people.
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  So there's probably especially some unbelievers that would might hear that and think that God's drawing is like mystical, magical, sudden, or does it happen through ordinary means?
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  I mean, does preaching play a part in this?
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  Church, scripture, conviction?
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  what are your thoughts on that?
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  Yeah.
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  I I I if it's interesting, just listening to the words we've said, we're we're still using physical pictures of these spiritual realities.
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  And when we use the words, where have you seen the hand of God today?
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  I mean we I ask that question to people, you know, a lot.
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  Where where have you s where have you seen God working lately?
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  Um w we're not talking about a physical hand.
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  We're
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  We're not talking about I was uh driving by a field the other day and I saw God out there working.
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  it at the same time, this is not spooky-ooky, and that's that's a that's a Jeff word.
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  it's interesting, God in First Kings 19 gave us a a a picture that that helps us to kind of understand he caused his
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  voice, his speaking, a still small voice.
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  in in the passage, the prophet was running from a king who said, I'm gonna kill you.
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  And he runs and runs and runs and God confronts him.
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  I love when God arrests people.
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  He's arrested me before.
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  And it says that there was a mighty wind and
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  And then there was an earthquake, and then there was a fire, but in each one of those it says, God was not in the wind, God was not in the earthquake, God was not in the fire.
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  And then it says that this still small voice, that's the King James, some of the modern translations will say there was a gentle whisper or a soft whisper.
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  And the picture is of of a a breath.
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  And it's interesting.
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  Y you know this because you've studied the Greek word, both the Greek and the Hebrew, the word f for wind or breath and the word for spirit is the same word.
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  Obviously in Hebrew it's one word in in Greek it's pneuma.
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  And so you can you have to translate pneuma based on the context that it's talking about because sometimes it literally is talking about a breath or a wind.
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  And sometimes it's talking about the invisible work of the Holy Spirit.
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  And I think that it's important for us to kind of get into our minds.
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  Jesus used this picture in John 3 when he said, Nicodemus, you're you're a teacher of the Bible.
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  And don't you know the work of the Holy Spirit?
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  He said, you know, we we all know there you can't see the wind, but you can see what the wind does, same way with the Holy Spirit.
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  You you don't feel a physical, this is what the Holy Spirit did.
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  You don't see the Holy Spirit, and yet we can sense God working on our life.
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  And I maybe I should say it this way.
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  I I have sensed the Lord speaking to me through my own Bible reading.
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  that's why I start every single day with with coffee and God.
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  And I mean
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  I I the coffee so I can wake up and God because I can't do it without him.
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  But literally, I am every single day opening the word because I often sense God speaking to me.
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  In fact, maybe I should say I don't think a day goes by.
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  I keep a journal and I I write down in my journal, here's what God has shown me about himself today.
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  And I've you if you went down and s looked in my journal today, there's a page and a half.
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  of of the things that God touched my heart about today, just simply reading the word of God.
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  And I knew it was that still small voice in the back of my mind, Jeff, this is it.
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  It's it's that quiet whisper.
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  It's not, it's not pushy.
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  It it is persistent.
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  It doesn't go away.
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  It's it's that work that God does quietly.
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  You know, I've I've sensed him working through preaching.
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  You asked specifically about that, where someone preached something
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  And there were just I could just feel my heart excited and and and alive because of that truth that just resonated with my heart.
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  sometimes there's actually a conviction of something that I've done wrong and that I've known I shouldn't have done.
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  And as someone's preaching, I I I I remember it.
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  It's like the God used the word in the preaching to speak to me in a specific way.
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  I've actually sensed it in conversations with other believers.
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  it may be that there's an unbeliever listening to this podcast.
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  And maybe the friend that's telling you about Jesus, when you talk to him, you can kind of almost feel this tugging or squeezing inside of you.
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  It's like that voice in the back of your head saying, Wow, that's that's actually true.
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  And that's the way the Holy Spirit speaks.
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  So
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  Technically speaking, the role the Holy Spirit plays in awakening this spiritual desire inside of us is besides what you've just said in that in that sense and that conviction,
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  is there another role that the Holy Spirit 'cause we usually see him as playing a big role in all this.
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  I mean, Pentecost, Acts chapter two, he had a big role.
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  What's the role he plays today?
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  That's by the way, one of the things that I read in my Bible reading today is just watching the Holy Spirit for the first time working not just around and on, but in and
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  through believers.
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  Just really, really exciting to be able to see what the Holy Spirit did and what was accomplished through that.
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  But I think it's important for us to go back to when Jesus was.
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  First introducing the ministry of the Holy Spirit to his disciples.
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  And this is what he said I will not leave you as orphans.
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  I will come to you.
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  And when we're talking about the work of the Holy Spirit, this is not spooky ooky, kind of ooh, stuff in the air.
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  Uh, this this is God with us today.
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  When when Jesus said, I will come to you, he literally was saying, I, in the third person of the Trinity, am gonna come and live with you.
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  Colossians says it this way.
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  Starting kind of in the middle of a thought, to them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery.
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  And then he says, here's what the mystery is: Christ in you, the hope of glory.
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  And so I love that verse because it's it's helping us to recognize when people are seeking God.
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  Really what it is is God making himself known to that person.
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  And he does that through believers with God in them, the hope of glory, and his word in which he speaks to people and shows himself to them.
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  Hmm.
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  So sticky question.
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  Does God's drawing then force somebody against their will?
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  I mean, is it a drawing or is it a dragging and kicking and screaming?
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  Does it change what they desire?
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  Does it manipulate?
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  Yeah.
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  Well let me go back and answer another question because I and I'm on I'm not ignoring your question and I'm not uh I'm I'm not going back.
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  I'm I'm answering it with this.
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  you ask a minute ago, is it natural or is it some mysterious event?
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  And my answer is yes.
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  It it it it is natural because God supernaturally
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  Uses natural events, natural conversations in our lives to work in our lives.
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  But that work is a gentle whisper.
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  It's a mysterious yearning.
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  It's a persistent inner voice.
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  And so the reason I went back and answered that question again is kind of bring us back to.
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  how the Holy Spirit speaks.
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  And you know, I I mentioned it he he doesn't make me do something but he is persistent and keeps pushing keeps keeps that keeps that pro process in front of me and so really to get
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  underneath of that question we have to look at it from God's side not just our side and
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  What is it that God wants?
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  I mean, He doesn't need followers.
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  What is it that God wants?
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  And the answer is God wants our hearts.
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  The greatest command is to love the Lord our God with all of our heart and our soul and our mind.
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  I mean, that's what God wants.
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  God wants my heart.
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  He wants me to love him.
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  And he can't force anyone to love them.
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  So what he does is he changes our hearts so that we can love him.
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  And that's that's the beauty of redemption, is that literally redemption is God changing my heart so that I love him from inside.
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  Uh this last week I had the privilege of preaching in our church.
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  And I preached from Hebrews chapter 10, where it talks about God.
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  At conversion, literally writing his laws on our heart, so that the things that we want are the things that God wants.
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  And it it's not a force in which he's making us do it, but it is a transformation.
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  There it can't happen without that transformation.
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  There has to be a beautiful, glorious transformation.
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  So he woos and he speaks with that gentle whisper.
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  that mysterious yearning, that persistent internal voice.
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  And when a person says, Yes, God,
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  Then God comes and he just completely, and we call it new birth, we call it regeneration.
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  It's it's literally God says, I'm going to allow that old person to die, and I'm going to give you a new life.
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  And this new life is now written with the laws of God and the desires of the Lord.
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  Hmm.
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  So and I'm not sure if I'm sure we can answer this biblically, but I've not actually done a study like this in the Bible.
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  What are some signs that God may be drawing a person?
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  Could I mean is there anything we could see visibly that might lead us on to believe, hey, God's probably drawing that guy over there?
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  Yeah.
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  Well, I I think that the real issue here is
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  When we see
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  People who are by nature hostile to God and rebellious against his law, beginning to show an interest in God and trying to figure out how they could possibly get to the place where
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  they could do the things the Bible teaches.
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  and you've talked to people like this, you know, I I get it, but
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  Man, I I just don't know how I could ever be that way.
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  You know, and when a person is starting to say those things, it's like, that's the work of God.
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  And I don't know how many times w I've looked at someone and thought to myself, God's after him.
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  And it's because we look and we see unnatural desires coming out of a natural man.
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  He he's he's when a when a man
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  Is looking toward the possibility that the Bible might have answers for me.
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  That I I want to look into that book.
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  I want to figure out what it says.
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  So I actually think it this way.
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  When I ask my friend, would you do an exchange Bible study with me?
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  And he is at least curious enough to say, Yeah, I'll look at it.
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  I I just can't hardly help but think, hmm, I think God's after him.
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  Mm.
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  So can somebody resist that then?
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  I know this is a controversial quo I'm asking you a controversial question live on the air, but can someone resist this drawing you're talking about?
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  Yeah.
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  Anytime I answer a question like this, I feel like the safest and best way for me to answer it is not to tell you, well, here's what Jeff thinks, but to try to go and find
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  what does the word say?
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  I think it's interesting.
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  You listen to this is a saved man talking to unsaved people.
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  Stephen in his martyrdom.
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  Acts chapter seven says, You stiff necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit, as your fathers did, so do you.
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  And so we certainly hear of these.
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  Um it's interesting.
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  Jesus said it this way.
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  This is in Matthew chapter twelve, beginning with verse thirty-one.
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  Therefore, I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven, people.
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  But the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.
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  We tend to call this the an unpardonable sin.
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  Uh there is no unpardonable sin, but as a person rebels against that work of the Holy Spirit.
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  So we've been talking about the the quiet.
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  persistent internal communication of God in a person's heart.
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  When someone s says and and literally speaks against the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is working, it it says that will not be forgiven.
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  So you you cannot r say that's I'm I'm not I don't believe that's the Holy Spirit.
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  I'm not gonna listen to
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  the voice of God.
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  so I I I say that because these these are pictures in which clearly God is wooing, God is speaking, and humans are resisting.
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  I'm I'm I uh there's all kinds of stuff going through my brain.
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  there are people
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  who would um quickly add that in his sovereignty god still accomplishes what he wants to accomplish and i will not disagree with that cannot of course that's true but i i also
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  can't come up with a answer to a s a a honest question that you ask without pointing to the scripture the bible also uses relational words um so
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  We're talking about forming a relationship with God and being distant and and separated from God.
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  He uses these words.
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  Do not grieve the Holy Spirit.
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  Do not quench the Holy Spirit.
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  so you asked me a question and I have to answer the question.
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  It seems obvious that some do.
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  That seems obvious.
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  The here is the real issue.
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  the theological debate of um does God always get the man he goes for?
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  is is is God always going to win when he calls someone to himself?
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  And frankly, that's a theological debate that has been raging for hundreds of years.
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  And there's no way you and I, uh in our vast wisdom, are are gonna be able to answer that question.
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  And so I think it's better for us to stick to the words of God, listen to the warnings of God, not to resist, not to grieve, not to quench.
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  What I want to emphasize when I speak to humans, and so these are the people who are listening to us today, and these are the people that those of you who are listening that
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  you'll be speaking to that are uh listening to.
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  The work of the Holy Spirit through the Word of God as you study the Bible together.
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  Isaiah chapter 55 says it this way in verse 6: Seek the Lord while he may be found.
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  Call on him while he is near to you.
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  So I when I hear God warn, don't resist, don't grieve, don't quench.
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  And I hear him say, If I am near,
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  And you are hearing my voice, you better run toward me.
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  Uh, those those are the words that I have to stay with.
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  I and I'm not gonna try to answer the age-old question uh, because I don't know that that's the words that God uses to try to answer my question.
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  What God says is, seek me.
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  I'm near, I'm available.
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  Now you have to seek.
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  Don't quench, don't grieve.
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  Don't resist, seek.
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  Yeah, I think I wouldn't change a word.
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  One of the mistakes many have made is trying to explain what scripture only describes.
• 24:58
  And we see that in the doctrine of the Holy Spirit and or sorry in the doctrine of the Trinity and other doctrines as well.
• 25:04
  but now it it does lead us to the next topic, which I'm guessing we can make the next
• 25:10
  Part of this series, the next episode in this series, which is this is a big tension, right?
• 25:15
  People wrestle with it.
• 25:17
  If God is drawing, where does human responsibility fit in all that?
• 25:21
  And it's the stuff we're touching on right here.
• 25:23
  You know, we're right at the border of it.
• 25:26
  and I think we should dig into what does the Bible say about human responsibility?
• 25:31
  Because it does.
• 25:32
  you could make the mistake.
• 25:34
  anybody could make, which is there's two ditches, one on each side of the road.
• 25:38
  You could end up in either.
• 25:40
  And regardless, you're gonna have a bad day.
• 25:42
  I mean I feel like it's a bad day when you end up in a ditch
• 25:46
  You know, I don't know if you ever thought about this, George, but with a mile of road, there are two miles of ditches ditches.
• 25:51
  I mean, there's a lot more ditches than there is smooth road.
• 25:55
  That is great.
• 25:56
  I'm gonna have to remember that.
• 25:57
  so next time we'll answer the question, how can both be true?
• 26:01
  And we'll do it from the scripture.
• 26:03
  one of the things I'll just brag on Jeff for a second I love about him is he has the humility to say, I don't know, what does the Bible say?
• 26:10
  What does it not say?
• 26:11
  Let's not put words in God's mouth.
• 26:13
  Um but God
• 26:15
  thing that every every mature believer must learn, and that is balance.
• 26:21
  we we and and and Lord willing, we will speak to let let's look at the balance because that's it's it's not I'm I'm gonna try to you know, somebody says this and someone says
• 26:31
  this and I wanna get in the middle.
• 26:33
  That's not it at all.
• 26:34
  It's just, you know, what what does God say and where can I stand that's that's on
• 26:39
  ground that God gave me.
• 26:41
  And that's what we'll be looking at.
• 26:42
  Amen.
• 26:43
  Well, thank you guys for listening.
• 26:45
  thank you for subscribing.
• 26:46
  Thank you for sharing the podcast with your friends and families, with your pastor, your church.
• 26:51
  that's the kind of stuff that makes a big difference, the bottom line of the podcast.
• 26:54
  this podcast is supported by our donors.
• 26:57
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• 27:04
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• 27:10
  pray with us as we pray to the Lord of the harvest that he would send forth laborers.
• 27:16
  That is still our
• 27:18
  Mission has not changed.
• 27:20
  after all this theological conversation, it's still the thing that Jesus said.
• 27:24
  And so let's keep going.
• 27:26
  Let's go in the harvest.
• 27:27
  Let's find laborers.
• 27:28
  Let's recruit more laborers, and let's see what God will do.
• 27:31
  We love you guys.
• 27:32
  We'll see you next week.