Latest / The Junto Podcast / E42: Harmonious Dissent - De-escalation, ICE, and the Cost of Extremes

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E42: Harmonious Dissent - De-escalation, ICE, and the Cost of Extremes · The Junto Podcast

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Hello, America. Welcome to the Junto Podcast, where we promote the practical
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applications of critical thinking and bold creativity.
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I am your host, Edgar Mills. Thanks for joining.
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Hello, good people. Welcome to episode 42. I appreciate you guys for sticking with me.
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In today's world, the social media, the news, everything we see,
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everything is very, very, very divisive.
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There's extremes on either end that seem to be the only things we get to look at.
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And thoughtful, objective debate and just discourses seems to be lost, seems to be.
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I'll tell you now, I spent a 25-year career being very disagreeable and,
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well, confrontational.
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I was an angry guy, had a chip on my shoulder most of my young adult life,
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and I was real quick for an argument, real quick for an argument.
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And, well, I'm not saying, my years in the 82nd, kind of, that's what,
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one of the things that drew me to the Army was that.
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I wasn't up for polite. The guy was telling me what to do, then whatever.
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That's what it was. There was no debate about it, really.
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As I went up in the rank a little bit, I started asking a lot of questions about why, why.
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But I wouldn't say I was a good, I mean, I can argue with somebody and I guess
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in terms of win or lose, I can win an argument, you know, with sarcasm and intimidation
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a little bit or whatever.
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But that's not, well, one, nobody wins.
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Nobody really wins an argument, I guess. And two, the point of debate isn't
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winning or losing necessarily.
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Well, no, I mean, I guess it is. But if you're on a debate stage,
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right, if you're a politician on a debate stage in an election cycle.
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Yeah, you win or lose.
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But what I'm saying here is that with normal humans on a daily life,
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arguments and debates shouldn't be for win or lose, but literally to find a
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way forward, You know, so we're going to talk about those things.
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And I feel kind of compelled. We're going to explore some of this,
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the ICE operations up there in Minneapolis and these two recent shootings and
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try to figure out, get some understanding on those.
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From my perspective, of course, everything is just opinion, good people,
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and it's opinion that I think is founded in objectivity.
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Reason. I did a blog, I don't know, last year, year and a half ago,
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Objectivity and Political Discourse, and talked about this stuff,
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how, well, one, when you're debating or arguing or having a conversation with
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somebody and differing opinions,
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one, you need to have verifiable facts on your side.
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Verifiable facts, not analyzed facts that you added in your feelings of why or how a thing happened.
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But yeah, to start with, you need to have verifiable facts.
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And then the next thing I believe when you're having these discussions or arguments
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or debates is trying to avoid emotional bias.
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And that's very difficult. It's very difficult, I know.
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Telling some people to suppress their emotions is like telling you to go,
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you know, just go run a hundred miler.
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Like it's without tree owner. It's just insane.
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Some people just, they're emotional people.
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And it's okay to be emotional, But when you're talking with someone else who
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isn't exactly like you and you're trying to get somewhere,
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right, if you're trying to come to some level of agreement, you've got to keep
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the emotions down a little.
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And you need to be able to see reality as it is and not as you want it to be.
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Everybody has a view of a perspective, I know, but there is an objective reality out there.
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And depending on the topic at hand, you need to be able to see that objective reality.
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And then, of course, for me, I believe everything should be analyzed through
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the filter of individual rights. Yeah.
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Everything always goes through that filter first. Does it violate individual rights or not?
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If we have the capacity to understand that everyone, whether they consciously
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or subconsciously, act out of self-interest, everyone does.
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The most selfless human being on the planet has to act.
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There has to be a certain level of self-interest, even if it's just to stay alive.
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At some point, you have to go eat.
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At some point you need a drink of water and that on the most base level is self-interest,
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but then as we add layers and layers and layers of social and cultural complexities on top of that,
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people still sort of act in their self-interest.
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And if it's rational self-interest right if it's well thought out and it and
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it there's a purpose in it and it's not coercive or it doesn't violate someone
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else, then yeah, then that's good and that's right.
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And if we understand that about everyone, not just people we agree with,
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but people we disagree with, if we can understand that about everyone,
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then we can start to find some kind of common ground there.
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Now, you guys know I love the Stoics.
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And this one comes up a lot but marcus aurelius said that we can't control outside
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events we can only control our reactions to them.
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And epictetus said it's not what happens to you but how you react to it that matters so there's,
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Even back then, not even even,
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everything we do comes from something that has a foundation,
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a history, you know, and debate, I think, back as far as the Stoics,
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they had very good roadmaps for how to behave.
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But using those stoic philosophies, if you're having a heated debate about whether
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or not ice ought to be in Minneapolis or wherever,
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you have to take a step back.
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You know, do your little breathing exercise And then you have to have a meaningful
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response That has a foundation in some kind of value system Some kind of, yeah, justice, right?
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That's one of the big things that the protesters are up there on about Justice Right,
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But they're not, they don't talk much about some of the other virtues like patience or whatever.
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And they do consider themselves courageous, I'm sure.
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But these are things that you need to consider before you respond to some of
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these hyperbolic situations out there.
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These are things that I've only learned and am still learning in my latter years here, folks.
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Again, I was a very confrontational guy, and all it took was one word given to me,
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an ill will or being condescending or sarcastic, and I would launch.
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I could have a debate, but the very moment, you've heard people say,
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I will match your energy. Well, that's not what I did.
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I would immediately try to intensify that.
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So if you come at me and it's not in good faith, if you're trying to especially
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be condescending, I was especially tender to that, maybe out of insecurity.
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You know, I don't know, but I was especially tender to the condescension and
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I would immediately turn into the gigantic asshole.
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So, yeah, I've learned in my latter years here, the more I read,
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you know, the more I read, the more I interact with humans different than me.
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In the Army, there's a lot of humans different than you, for sure, even on your team.
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But you all have a common a very humongous common,
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factor there. And that's, yeah, being in the army.
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So anyway, where I lost it, virtue, you have to take a breath, all right?
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Don't immediately respond. And if somebody is coming at you in a sarcastic tone,
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don't give it back straight away.
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Just take it in and then respond with a little bit of, of patience. Yeah.
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I think the goal, especially, well, if things start to escalate,
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like tensions start to rise a little bit, the goal is de-escalation.
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It's not even necessarily now even finding common ground.
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And I'm not saying you got to back off of every argument at all.
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That's not at all what I'm saying.
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But you absolutely need to maintain a certain level of civility.
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And you can't let it escalate to violence for sure.
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And at some point, I mean, you agree to disagree and be done with it.
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We have a hard time doing that these days. Well, I see this on the socials and
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on the news and stuff, which is, that's, I mean, that's part of the answer is
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it's on the socials and the news.
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So is it even real you know there are
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people out there i mean never mind paid agitators and never mind all these things
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there are people who are deeply invested on one side or the other of of any
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given situation practically speaking right subtle debate techniques are,
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How you talk to people can really just change, maybe not change their mind on
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an issue, but definitely change the way they interact with you.
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You don't have to call someone out or you don't have to directly,
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harshly challenge their worldview.
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You can ask probing questions without attacking anyone, right?
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You can ask slightly more subtle questions, and you don't have to immediately
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start hammering someone with your perspective either. Take theirs in.
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What evidence brought you to this point of view, man? What was the catalyst?
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Why do you think the way you think?
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And not in a confrontational way, just like genuine, give me some history on
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how you came to this conclusion.
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And then once you understand that, you can start to develop a counterargument or a strategy.
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Active listening, and I'm still kind of hard at this. I'm not very good at this.
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But active listening is very important. It's something as simple as just repeating
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back what they said, right?
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So that they see that you understand or you're listening, for one,
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and that you understand.
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And it kind of shows a level of respect. if you take the time just to listen
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without responding, yeah, that'll open the dialogue a little bit.
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And if I say this all the time, I don't have a lot of sympathy for a lot of
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things, but I do have empathy for everyone and everything.
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I understand a lot of perspectives and understand why people are where they are.
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Whether I agree with it or not, it's one thing, but empathy.
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You have to have some empathy to avoid, you know, getting into a conflict.
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And if somebody feels like you understand them, yeah, you're halfway to a friendship right there.
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But in a debate, right, in an argument, in a dissent over some of these,
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hey, I understand why this is important to you.
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And then you can start to shape your argument.
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Instead of going all the way hard right or left to your perspective,
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you go to a shared sort of common ground and discuss on that for a little while.
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And these aren't like Jedi mind tricks.
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They seem that way, but they're not Jedi mind tricks.
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It's just tools to build a connection with someone, a real connection with someone.
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Then if you call yourself a Christian, then these tools are kind of rooted in compassion, right?
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You don't have to hate somebody on the other side of the political aisle.
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You can still have compassion for their perspective.
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Love your neighbor as you love yourself, even when you disagree.
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Now, a lot of people, you know, I know you guys are listening and talking about,
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You're thinking in your mind some of the more extreme acts out there that go beyond this.
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But those things started brewing somewhere, right?
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So if we can keep our early conversations very civil and our early disagreements
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and our early debates very civil, we can avoid these extremes down the road.
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Oh, man. Excuse me for coughing so much here. So if you spend time on social
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media, yeah, your echo chambers, they amplify the extremes.
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And in some cases, it's turning average citizens into enemies.
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Now, listen to me when I say enemies. I've said this before on this podcast,
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and I'm going to continue to say this.
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Enemy is a strong word. We have, in the modern day,
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allowed words to be manipulated, to lose their true meaning, to...
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To lose effect. But I'm telling you right now, enemy is a strong word.
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And no average citizen is enemies with any other average citizen.
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No matter what you think, unless you're a psychopath willing to go murder your
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enemy and his whole family and bloodline, then you're not enemies. You just disagree.
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Please don't minimize the power of words, good people.
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And a good example of that is the left like to use the word Nazi.
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They love to use the word Nazi. Everybody's a Nazi.
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Or racist. Everybody's a racist. And it just, after a while, loses its juice.
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And then nobody gives it any credence. in a modern political climate here.
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Now, so what we're talking about today is the ICE stuff, right?
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The immigration and the methods in which it's being enforced and the outcome,
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the consequences, whether intended or unintended, and all these things.
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On one side of that aisle, you got, you could say, I guess, the left who is
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prioritizing illegal immigrants, essentially over citizens.
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Borders are imaginary. There is no such thing as borders. No human is illegal.
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Leave them alone. Everybody should come in and be paid for. And then on the
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other side of that is you have extreme law and order.
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We have to close our borders down,
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build the wall as high as humanly possible and close it and send out the troops
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to round up the illegals,
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which is kind of what's happening to achieve some magical level of absolute security.
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And this is extreme as well. It overlooks each individual unique story out there.
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Because yes, this country was in fact built by immigrants.
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Everybody ultimately is an immigrant in America.
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Historically, right? Historically. Doesn't matter how many generations lived here.
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The point is your forefathers came from somewhere. Probably Europe. Yeah, right.
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In America, probably the majority of folks are English, Irish,
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Scottish, Italian, German, European.
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There's a balance. Now, I'll go ahead and hammer on government a little bit.
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You know, Congress, is mandated in the Constitution to make regular immigration and nationalization.
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It's Congress's job to create policy and SOP to make this a practical thing.
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Well, Congress has failed, as Congress does over and over again.
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Yes, I'm a libertarian. No, I don't believe in open borders.
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I do believe in free trade,
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and I do believe we should have regulated immigration, simply because you have
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to know you're not a sovereign nation if you don't know who's coming and going.
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You can't have benefits from the government,
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which arguably there shouldn't be anyway, But you can't have a system of benefits
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and then not be able to track citizens, at least who is or isn't a citizen.
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Because at that point, you have more people.
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The government's paying out more than it's bringing in. And good people,
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I'm pretty sure Social Security is a good example of that.
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It's a necessary, just logistical thing. It's got nothing to do with human rights.
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It's got nothing to do with no person is illegal or whatever.
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It's got to do with logistics. Now, hey, just get rid of all the entitlements.
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I'm on board with it. I'm on board with it, good people.
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I'm on board with it. But we know there's other nefarious stuff going on there,
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importing voters and such.
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But then what? Then what are we going to look like? What are we going to do?
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All the dystopian movies, I watched a movie last night. It was whatever the
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newer version of The Running Man.
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Now, I'm an 80s kid, right? I was born in 72.
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All the action heroes of the 80s, Arnold Schwarzenegger and Stallone and all those.
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Running Man, it was pretty good. It was awesome. I liked the storyline, the whole thing.
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The new one I saw last night, they tried to set it up.
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You could see that it may have had a little bit of a lefty spin on it, a little bit.
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You know, they tried to make unions, you know, guys look like the heroes,
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which I don't believe is the case at all.
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And if you're in a union, you know, let's argue it.
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Speaking of civil debate, I'm down for it.
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Unions have outlived their purpose. And in my opinion, unions now are just another lobby,
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just another centralized authority to suck money out of those that professes the help. Yeah.
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Anyway, I didn't think it was that great. I like the idea of a rebellion in
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the underground, but they didn't do a lot of good character development.
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The most interesting character in the movie was Michael Cera,
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who played a—his dad was a cop, and it was corrupt.
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When they went public, the cops went from working for the community to—.
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For the government and then working for a corporation right ultimately a corporation
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runs everything in this movie which is very you know corporation corporations doing,
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corporationy things it's evil and i don't 100 disagree with that but anyway
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michael cera was the most interesting character he was in it for like 10 15
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minutes yeah that it was a dystopian,
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max control your everything was you know 1984 style
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and you were out there doing the running man
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for entertainment you know
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betting your your life against money
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right so i don't know
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i didn't think it went over that well and then at the end you
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know he was like the every man with the hoodie and the
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and a face mask on and they
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tried to glorify that right the little man beats the
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corporation and then at the very end when
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killian was who was
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josh bro who in the middle of the big studio
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the big bazillion dollar studio and he's falling down on his face and then ben
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richards comes up and shoot you know and murders and murders the guy they glorified
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a thing that i don't think they should be glorified in that way in the modern day.
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Yeah, protest. Do. It's inherently American to protest.
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But understand the environment that you're in. Understand.
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If you're protesting government overreach because Donald Trump's in charge,
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but you didn't protest government overreach because Biden was in charge,
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what are you doing? It's just a fashion statement.
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You're just protesting as a fucking fashion statement.
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If you want to protest all government overreach all the time,
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I'm on board. I'm on board with it.
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Protest it all. Yeah, to include entitlements, to include taxing everything, everything,
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to include the militaristic use of ICE. Yeah.
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So let's get to that. Let's get to that.
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Again, I look at everything, folks, through a libertarian lens.
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I value limited government, and I value individual liberty and personal freedoms.
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And I call myself a Christian. I got bad language, yes.
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But I do believe in mercy and justice, justice for all.
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Yeah, that's right. I believe in those things. but I'm not what you would classify
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as a single issue voter, right?
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I take a lot of things into account when I'm out here analyzing a situation.
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And no matter what the situation, extremes lead to unintended consequences.
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That's it. That's what happens.
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Extremes lead to unintended consequences.
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We see this in politics like magnified.
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You never see a debate, a political debate, that don't immediately go personal.
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And as soon as it does, it's obviously.
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Obscured obfuscated the topic
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at hand and three sentences
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into a retort or rebut or rebuttal you don't even know what the actual question
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was anymore you're like what the hell are they talking about and when you start
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attacking people personally demonizing people and it's easy to do good people,
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because everybody's got something,
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right? Nobody among us is perfect.
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Everybody's got something that they're embarrassed about or that they don't
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want the general public to know about. Everybody does.
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It's easy to get personal in one of these debates.
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And then once we start demonizing these people personally, then we start to
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lose our humanity little bits at a time.
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Once we look at our opponents in this dehumanized way, our humanity slowly erodes.
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And at some point, you're not even looking at this person as a human anymore. And this is evidence.
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You can see the evidence of this is all these people who cheer and celebrate when somebody dies.
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Yeah, I talked about Charlie Kirk before. Well, what about this young lady?
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What's her name? Good. Renee Good.
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Who knows? We'll get to it. We'll get to it.
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People cheered when Charlie Kirk died. People cheered when Trump nearly got killed.
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There's a whole segment out there who say both of those are fake and Charlie Kirk's alive.
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And they set up the fake assassination on Trump.
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Who else? I mean, the left cheers when a cop gets killed.
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Yeah. Well, a segment of left. I'm saying a segment, right? The extremes.
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They cheer when a cop or someone gets killed.
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And then just slam dunk him for he shouldn't have been out there doing blah, blah, blah anyway.
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And then the inconsistency and the structure of your belief, it falls apart.
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So when we're talking about these things with other people who may or may not
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disagree with us, we should consider some things.
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The words we use, words matter. Yeah, they do.
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And then we should consider what we're delivering.
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Now, I deliver opinion, folks. That's what I'm delivering to you right now.
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If I say something's a fact, I've checked it most likely, or it's been proven to be a fact.
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But most of the stuff I'm delivering is opinion, and I'll tell you it's opinion.
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But let's look.
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So all that's going on in Minneapolis right now with the, I think it's Operation
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Metro Surge is what it's called.
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And all the news, they're reporting on all these things, and there's a lot of
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immigration arrests, and that is sparking protest.
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But I'm going to draw comparisons here for a sec. Hold on. So,
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you know, you got the protesters out there.
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We want ICE out of our city. Disband ICE. Yeah.
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And then when the unintended consequences, well, it depends,
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I guess, it could be intended from a more nefarious, centralized perspective.
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They could be trying to get these results.
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So there's been two shootings in the past couple weeks. And the first was Renee Nicole Good.
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And with the news because most outlets
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are are left they you know you remember they were showing the picture of her
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you know eight or ten years ago all innocent and pretty and this and that and
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they were and they talk about she was a mother of three who loved singing and writing poetry,
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and she was shot and killed by ice.
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Is that meant to be misleading? I mean, are those true things?
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Yeah, they're probably true things. Maybe she definitely was a mother and she
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maybe loved singing and writing poetry.
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And she was indeed shot and killed by ice. But it's definitely crafted to...
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And then her wife, Becca, shared a heartfelt statement about the profound loss.
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Well, from a different perspective on that, folks, you could say she was out there agitating.
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What do you call it? Interfering with official operations.
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And that her wife, Becca, was instigating the incident while videoing it on
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video camera saying, drive, baby, drive, or whatever.
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And you can see the lead up video to where she's antagonizing these officers.
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Now, I'm not saying that to say anything except there are two sides that he
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said, she said, but there are actually three sides, right? And then there's the reality.
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And you can And you can argue that the ICE guy acted too aggressively.
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Is it possible that he could have just stepped out of the way? Is it possible?
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Well, because he's allowed under the rules of engagement to shoot her,
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does that mean he should have?
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Was she there? Was it in good faith? Was she there just to express her support for illegal aliens?
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Or was she there to, yeah, disrupt and interfere?
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And I can't remember what the legal term is right at this moment.
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Was she there to disrupt?
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Executions of warrant by a federal agent.
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Now, objectively speaking, right, unless some of the facts of the matter,
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she definitely stopped in the middle of a street to block traffic. That happened.
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Whether or not, what was her intention? I don't know. She blocked traffic.
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And, you know, they got these little groups out there now. Now these,
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I can't remember what they call them, the watchers, the something, observers.
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And they got their apps and they got the little, the whistles where they draw
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people, protesters, you know, that they announce their locations and stuff like that.
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Kind of like these flash mobs back in the day, you know, where they'd show up
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and it's kind of like that. And then this guy, this agent, Ross,
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approached the vehicle.
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He was on foot. All the agents were on foot. Well, most of them. They were a vehicle.
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And he was videoing. And he walked up in front of the SUV. Yep.
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And then to the driver's side. Yep.
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And Becca, her wife, got out and confronted the agent, also with her cell phone.
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Everybody's got their cell phone in their hands.
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And she's antagonizing the agent, telling him to show his face because he had a mask on.
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And then tensions escalated.
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Then two ICE officers approached and tried to open the driver's side door and
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ordered Renee Nicole Good to get out of the car.
34:32
And meanwhile, wife Becca Good urges Renee Good to drive Baby Drive.
34:41
Renee Good, she backed up the SUV a little bit, and then she,
34:46
you could see on video, she turned her wheel to the right and then stepped on
34:50
it because you could see the tires spin.
34:53
And on one of the videos, you can see that she clipped Agent Ross, the ICE agent,
35:00
and then it shows he drew his gun,
35:06
fired three shots into the windshield while angling off to his right,
35:12
and then through the driver's side door or window,
35:18
and then she crashed into a pole,
35:22
like a telephone pole. that's what happened.
35:25
All the whys and hows and what was said and all those things...
35:31
Are kind of irrelevant to Renee Goode, right?
35:35
She's dead now. Did she have a right to be at a protest? Yeah,
35:40
for sure she had every right to be.
35:43
Was she willing to die for immigrants? I mean, I don't know.
35:46
Was she all in for protesting ICE?
35:53
At what level of commitment do you think she had? Did she think,
35:57
did she have a realistic perspective on what might happen?
36:01
What are the possible outcomes here of what I'm doing?
36:07
Or was she caught up in a moment emotionally and with her wife urging her on, agging her on to?
36:16
Now, as far as blame goes, I put a lot of it on the wife.
36:20
Yeah so i think
36:24
legally the guy was legally within his rights
36:27
to to shoot her if he thought that she was trying to run him down i think tactically
36:35
speaking he probably could have de-escalated that whole thing could have probably
36:41
not been escalated but that's not what the norm is right now with ICE.
36:46
They're going out there to escalate tensions, it seems, which begs the question,
36:51
are they diverting from something else?
36:54
Who knows? But I don't see a lot of de-escalation going on on the videos.
36:59
And I'm an armchair quarterback. You know, I'm not in the moment,
37:04
but if I'm one of, say, 10 agents who are surrounded by a mob of 100 people,
37:14
I'm probably going to feel a little vulnerable and so there's a lot of factors yeah a lot of factors.
37:23
I don't think she needed to be dead this guy may or may not he may or may not
37:30
be able to sleep with himself at night I don't know.
37:34
Way he thinks about it. I know the culture of some units is one of aggression and us against them.
37:46
I don't think that's necessarily correct either, especially with federal agents
37:51
who are even meant to police non-citizens, but especially agents who are meant
37:57
to out there police and citizens,
37:59
interacting with potentially your neighbor.
38:04
I mean, you're out there escalating stuff because you have a sense of authority.
38:08
There's doing your job, there's executing your mandated authority,
38:13
and then there's having this sense of power and absolute authority, right,
38:20
over all things because you're doing your job and you think your job is the
38:24
most important thing on the planet.
38:27
So yeah, there's a couple of sides to it.
38:31
It's hard not to get heated when there's death involved over a topic,
38:36
but you have to be able to look at both sides.
38:40
You have to be able to look at both sides. Both people involved,
38:44
I think she was, I don't think she was very smart for being out there and doing what she did.
38:50
I don't think she had any clue of what the potential outcomes could be.
38:55
I don't think she had any goal physically.
39:00
Oh, I'm just going to disrupt these guys for a minute or whatever.
39:04
I don't think she played it out. I don't think she played it out.
39:08
I don't think she understood.
39:11
And then the agent, did he wake up in the morning thinking he was going to smoke somebody?
39:16
I like to say no. I like to think no on that.
39:20
I like to think, unless you're a psychopath, I like to think that you wake up
39:24
in the morning, you know, all right, I'm going to do my job today.
39:29
I hope everything goes well.
39:32
And we execute whatever we're executing, the warrant, you know.
39:36
And did he think, I'm going to go out and treat all these people with absolute dignity and respect.
39:42
And hopefully they'll see that I'm a genuine human and not just some machine.
39:49
I don't know. I don't know.
39:53
But you got to take all that into account. Do we need to abolish ICE? No, not necessarily.
40:01
Well, let me back that up. Let me back that up.
40:05
If Congress could put together a goddang coherent immigration and naturalization
40:11
doctrine, you know, law, plan, SOPs,
40:17
and enforce those just with local law enforcement.
40:21
Now, I think we need some kind of literal border security and immigration-type
40:27
thing because we need borders.
40:30
I also happen to think that the military should handle that,
40:34
but that's another thing.
40:35
I mean, there's a whole lot of entanglement there, but do I think we should get rid of ICE?
40:43
Generally speaking, yeah, I think we should get rid of all three-letter agencies.
40:46
I don't think any of them are very valuable.
40:50
And I think in this instance they're
40:53
contributing more to the problem than they are minimizing the problem now that
40:58
being said how many did they roll up did they get the number of people they
41:03
meant to get did they get whoever was on the warrants from that and does that
41:09
equal mission success, even if someone died? I don't think so.
41:14
I don't think so. Yeah. And then we got the other one, the one that just happened
41:20
like day before yesterday or yesterday, day before yesterday, Alex Pretty.
41:25
In the news, he's a dedicated ICU nurse at the VA.
41:33
Of course, and then ABC report that he was unarmed, possibly holding a phone,
41:39
not a weapon, as video suggests.
41:41
And it is questionable whether or not he was holding a weapon or not. I don't think he was.
41:45
I saw some video that looked very much like, well, I'll get to it in a sec.
41:50
Clearly, the federal officers claim self-defense, and this has just stepped up.
41:57
This has just stepped up the uh the protests right this is just stepped them up.
42:04
Now that guy had a gun holstered he was a concealed carrier that's one thing,
42:12
did he have a right yeah absolutely had a right did he have a right to carry
42:17
a gun out of protest yeah for for sure he did,
42:23
But did he do the risk assessment in his mind? Did he go out intending to be a martyr?
42:29
I doubt it. I don't know. I doubt it.
42:34
He was filming this stuff going on.
42:38
And, you know, they had their little apps with the whistles going out and people were showing up.
42:45
And an ICE agent kind of shoved a couple of protesters away from one of the vehicles.
42:54
I don't even know if it was ICE agent. Honestly, it might have been Department of Homeland Security.
42:59
They shoved two people away, and then this dude, Petty, attempted to get in
43:05
between the agents and the two civilians.
43:07
So he's a self-appointed protector of the protestors and a dedicated nurse at the VA.
43:17
And then one of the agents sprayed Freddie with a pepper spray.
43:25
And then on one of the videos, it shows him holding his phone in one hand,
43:29
and he raised the other hand up to kind of shield his face from the spray.
43:33
And then at that point, seven agents grabbed Freddy and wrestled him to the ground.
43:42
And he, of course, resisted. And they pinned him down.
43:49
The pepper spray was hitting this dude with the pepper spray can.
43:54
And while he was on his knees and restrained, now not restrained in cuffs,
44:01
restrained with his arms pinned by some of those, you know, a handful of those agents,
44:08
one agent pulls Pretty's gun from his holster.
44:13
Yep. So he was essentially disarming Pretty.
44:17
And somewhere around eight seconds after that an agent yells yells out about a gun right,
44:29
and the agent who pulled the gun out moved away and then another agent unholstered
44:36
and started blazing fired one shot into this dude while he was still being held
44:43
down restrained well four shots, ultimately,
44:47
that guy shot. And then another agent.
44:51
Had the pepper spray, drew his firearm and fired six shots into this dude.
44:59
Now, DHS says that, well, all it says was approach the U.S.
45:06
Border Patrol officers with a nine millimeter semi-automatic handgun.
45:10
I approach everybody every day with a nine millimeter semi-automatic handgun.
45:15
That's what I carry, right? He was not wrong for that.
45:19
He didn't have in his hand. They didn't know that The guy was armed until they
45:22
had him down on the ground scuffing him up.
45:26
So another angle on that is that the agent who disarmed Preddy with Preddy's
45:34
gun had a negligent discharge, which was the one shot heard first.
45:42
And then one of the agents drew and pumped three into the guy.
45:45
And then the other guy drew and pumped four into the guy.
45:49
So now i'm in i'm inclined to believe this and i'm inclined i'll go back and
45:57
do do a little more in detail research i didn't mean to make this a zapruder
46:02
film analysis here i'm just saying,
46:06
what one angle on this is that negligence from the agents not just abuse of
46:13
power and authority but negligence caused this dude to get shot.
46:18
And I'm inclined to believe it, good people. I'm just inclined to believe it
46:22
based on what I know about officer training.
46:28
Yeah, based on what I know about officer training. All right,
46:32
so did Freddie, what was he doing out there?
46:35
Did he have every right to be there? Yeah, he had every right to be there.
46:38
Did he have any right to step in between a DHS agent who was dealing with other people?
46:47
Well, no, not really, right? Not really. He became the self-appointed hero of the day.
46:54
Did he have a right to have a firearm on him? Yeah, absolutely he did.
46:58
I think he was a licensed concealed carrier.
47:00
Now, the fact that he was carrying a SIG, that's a whole nother.
47:05
All right. Anyway, I'm not making fun of this guy's death at all.
47:10
I'm saying the SIG could have went off by itself. That's all I'm saying. All right.
47:17
He had every right to carry that SIG. Now, let me tell you what one of the news
47:21
stories wrote or what I read on some of the things.
47:25
They said that he went there. They tried to tell you his intent,
47:29
that he went there with two extended capacity mags, and it had a red dot optic
47:38
on it, so he meant to engage at long range.
47:42
So he was prepared for a long range shootout because he had two mags and an optic on his gun.
47:51
And the only reason my gun doesn't have 21 rounds is because it's a Glock 19
47:56
and only carries 15 round mags.
48:01
Modern handguns, there are some out there with that capacity.
48:07
Hey, folks, one sec, one sec, one sec.
48:11
All right, good people. Sorry about that.
48:17
Yeah, right to own a gun. That guy had every right. Yes. Yes, he did. Every right.
48:22
Let's see. Had a right to be there. Yes, he did. Did he have a right to interject
48:27
into DHS, Border Patrol, ICE operations?
48:32
No, not really. Legally speaking, no.
48:36
And look, I'm going to always draw the distinction between, well,
48:41
legally don't mean morally right.
48:43
But if you try to use morals as a standard, good people, especially from the
48:48
left, if you're saying morally you have the high ground, which in this case maybe you do,
48:55
are you holding yourself to the same moral standard across the board?
49:00
Now, I saw a very good interaction on the socials.
49:05
And some guy says, and he posts up, and he was in defense of ICE,
49:11
right, in defense of DHS or whatever.
49:13
And he says, why was that guy bringing a gun to a protest?
49:19
And you might go, yeah, why would he do that?
49:22
That doesn't make any sense. And then the retort to that was,
49:26
well, Kyle Rittenhouse brought a gun to a protest.
49:32
Now, I thought that was pretty succinct because the right, generally speaking,
49:38
got behind Rittenhouse based on moral high ground and his right to keep and bear arms.
49:45
Is the right on board with Mr.
49:50
Preddy, Miss Alex Preddy, his right to keep him bare arms?
49:55
Yeah, I don't know. I mean, think about it. Are you intellectually consistent? Yeah.
50:02
Anyway, there's there's two sides. There's three sides. Hell,
50:05
I keep saying this. There's your perspective, their perspective.
50:09
And then and then the facts of the matter.
50:13
So I'm not going to I'm not I'm going to go ahead and say that I think the Renee
50:22
Nicole Renee Good thing, I think legally it's pretty cut and dry.
50:27
It's been a long-standing precedent that
50:30
if somebody tries to hit you with a car that's considered
50:33
assault with a deadly weapon or whatever
50:36
legally speaking now yeah
50:40
i'm saying legally guys but this one right here i think is a little more ambiguous
50:46
i think it's a lot more ambiguous and i think if video evidence comes out that
50:52
this god dang dhs guy or whoever had a negligent discharge,
50:57
which caused the sympathetic fire from other agents.
51:03
I think we're going to have a problem there. Yeah, legally speaking.
51:09
And somebody might get charged with murder or whatever you want to call it.
51:15
No, I don't know what the charges are. I'm not a goddamn lawyer.
51:21
Negligent homicide, maybe.
51:24
Hey man A lot of stuff going on Fog of war There's a lot of stuff going on Are we at war?
51:31
Hell no Well not on American soil.
51:37
We need to stop acting like it's war. And this is going to bother some of my Republican homies.
51:43
We need to stop acting like it's war and start acting like what it is,
51:49
is a law enforcement action.
51:52
And it needs to go down like a law enforcement. And then, and here's the other comparison, folks.
51:57
I want to say probably more people were deported during the Obama presidency
52:02
than the Trump presidency.
52:05
You didn't see a whole bunch of ICE riots during the Obama presidency.
52:14
And one take on that is that these sanctuary cities and all these places that
52:20
where ICE had warrants to go and arrest folks,
52:26
that the local law enforcement were in support of the federal law enforcement.
52:35
And I don't mean morally. I mean, just physically. They supported the effort.
52:39
The local government supported the federal government's effort to do what they
52:43
did. And we didn't see all the madness on television.
52:49
Yeah. I think with these liberal cities trying to take some kind of,
52:55
trying to be morally superior and virtue signal by not supporting federal agents
53:03
because they don't like Donald Trump.
53:05
Literally only because they don't like Donald Trump.
53:10
It's creating more chaos, which is leading to more uncertainty, more fog of war.
53:18
And then you got people getting smoked by marginally trained federal agents
53:25
who are dressed like they're in the operators in Call of Duty.
53:32
On, man. There's a lot going on with all that stuff. I think the tactics from the,
53:37
the political tactics, which spill over into the federal agency tactics,
53:43
this approach of doing these large scale deployments of agents, right.
53:50
And they, and they're rolling in with their like RGs or whatever,
53:54
the big, you know, the Bearcats and all these things.
54:01
And they're rolling in like a military unit. And, like, I mean,
54:04
like, company-size elements, you know, 10, 15 trucks.
54:09
And it looks militaristic.
54:11
They got all the gear on. They look like they're in the Call of Duty.
54:15
And I do think that the Trump administration is trying to project all this power and all this force.
54:25
To strike fear into the, well, at least the immigrant population,
54:30
but also to thumb their nose at the left population.
54:35
And yes, to enforce existing immigration law.
54:40
So to me, it's not what they're doing, it's how they're doing it.
54:45
I think immigration law needs to be enforced.
54:49
And I think if they have warrants, then that's the validity right there.
54:54
Now, if they can get legitimate warrants for humans, right, not a place,
55:01
not a city, like, okay, we got a warrant to go into Minneapolis and round up whoever.
55:06
No, man, that's not the case at all. I think if they got legitimate warrants,
55:11
then they are well within their rights to go in and enforce immigration law.
55:17
I think that the local law enforcement should facilitate that.
55:23
And I think they shouldn't be doing this with a...
55:28
And with the military type, shock and awe.
55:34
I just think it's creating more problems than it's not. That's what I think.
55:42
Because we get these unintended consequences. Yeah, Trump's trying to instill fear and shock and awe.
55:48
The unintended consequences are that we got American citizens getting smoked
55:53
by other American citizens who work for the government.
55:57
Which paints a picture of these dystopian futures like you see on Running Man
56:02
and, you know, 1984 and whatnot.
56:06
Now, when Obama was in charge of stuff, the right side saw all government action
56:11
as like dystopian future, Running Man, 1984 stuff.
56:16
And now that Trump's in charge, the left sees all government stuff as dystopian future.
56:23
So what's the common thread there?
56:28
Government. It doesn't matter who's in charge. The government needs to be restrained
56:33
and it needs to do what it's prescribed to do via the Constitution.
56:38
If you can look at things from that, and I think that's a very centrist view, folks.
56:43
I really do. I think it's a centrist perspective.
56:49
All these things that happen, they create unintended consequences,
56:53
and they create equal and opposite reactions.
56:57
Maybe not even equal, maybe overreactions on the extremes. Yeah.
57:04
We need law and order. We need accountability in our country on all levels,
57:10
folks. I mean, individual accountability, government accountability,
57:15
corporate accountability.
57:19
We're desperately lacking accountability in almost every capacity here in America these days.
57:26
But I can tell you this, the government is legally bound to be accountable to
57:33
its citizens. Yeah, that's right.
57:36
The government is bound to be accountable to its citizens via the Constitution.
57:42
So as you're debating with your friends and your family about these things,
57:47
just take a moment, folks, and look at both sides.
57:51
Now, if you're on one of those extreme sides, this might be more difficult for you.
57:57
You might find it difficult to look and empathize with the other side.
58:05
You might find it difficult.
58:09
And if you're having a holiday dinner debate with your, you know,
58:16
extreme right wing uncle or your extreme liberal niece, you guys,
58:23
can you have a civil debate?
58:27
If you can't have a civil debate with your own family, you probably need to
58:33
avoid having debates at all for a little while. Don't go out in public.
58:39
And if you get a little more irrational just because it is your family,
58:44
and you feel like you have a little more leniency with poor behavior,
58:50
reevaluate that, because you're probably treating your family kind of wrong.
58:55
Yeah. But as you're having these debates, folks, as you're having these arguments,
59:00
or your lefty dude at work who...
59:05
On the coffee machine and call each other names because you both disagree with whatever.
59:11
Look at the other side. Where are they coming from?
59:15
If you can't see it, ask, hey, man, I don't, what, what leads you to this?
59:23
What was the buildup to get you to this point?
59:27
Now, that's, that's a broad statement, right? But I mean, be specific.
59:31
And if he can't articulate that, now we can see a little bit.
59:35
But if he can't articulate that, if he can't articulate that,
59:41
well, then that's something for you to process now.
59:43
Now you're like, okay, I get it. I see why.
59:47
And now let's, okay, now that I can understand why, I can sort of see his perspective
59:55
in a different way and I can find some common ground.
59:58
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's out there, the common ground.
1:00:01
We don't have these debates in order to blame people or to demonize people.
1:00:08
Well, we shouldn't be. And if that's why you're having a debate,
1:00:11
then you just don't. You don't need to.
1:00:15
And we don't necessarily, folks, have these debates or these arguments in order
1:00:20
to change other people's minds.
1:00:23
It's just to open up the door for rational debate.
1:00:28
You're probably not going to. There ain't many of you out there who have the
1:00:33
capacity to change my mind on what I believe in the political spectrum.
1:00:39
You can give an impassioned speech. You can sell it and and frilly it up all you want.
1:00:47
But chances are you're not going to be able to change my mind.
1:00:51
Your perspective. And if you tell me, then I can understand why your perspective is what it is.
1:00:58
And if you're a rational human, then we can both agree to disagree and still
1:01:03
be friends. That's the way it is.
1:01:05
But you don't have these arguments to change someone's mind necessarily.
1:01:11
Now, if you can present your perspective and why you got there in a compelling
1:01:17
way, you might leave a little seed there to the.
1:01:25
Nurtured. But if you start blaming and name-calling and taking score,
1:01:31
you've lost the argument there.
1:01:34
These debates and these arguments should be more about a collaboration on how
1:01:41
to best benefit ourselves, our immediate space,
1:01:47
our immediate community, how to foster human dignity even amongst those you
1:01:53
disagree with. Oh man, yeah.
1:01:56
Even amongst those you disagree with.
1:01:59
And libertarian or not, anarchist or not, we need some rule of law in our society.
1:02:07
Anarchy is a romantical notion. And if you're willing for the world to go into
1:02:14
absolute murderous chaos for probably about what?
1:02:19
But it probably would burn out in about four to six months, I imagine.
1:02:25
Millions would be dead. Little pockets of people would be hunkered down in places.
1:02:32
It would be dystopian, I believe. Because I believe there's enough bad humans
1:02:37
out there that would create this negative dystopian future.
1:02:43
The romantic side of that is anarchy means no control and no regulate,
1:02:49
no people, and then little communities flourish amongst each other.
1:02:57
Goes about their business. But you have to understand there is a devil floating around out there.
1:03:05
So I don't think that's practically it. We need the rule of law, folks.
1:03:09
As much as some of you want to hate on the cops, we need law.
1:03:16
Now, I think policing should be done at the
1:03:19
lowest municipal level possible and
1:03:23
i believe it should be headed by elected
1:03:26
officials and i mean locally elected officials and if and if some police chief
1:03:33
ain't doing the right thing and he his department ain't doing the right thing
1:03:38
then get his ass out of there and been unless elected someone who will do the right things.
1:03:45
Well, what are the right things? Well, to protect individual rights,
1:03:52
to settle contract disputes, and yeah,
1:03:57
protect individual rights and protect contract disputes, and yeah,
1:04:02
to solve any crime that may have, any physical crime that may have been committed.
1:04:10
Not a whole lot else It's not about blame Don't blame Don't blame It's about
1:04:16
collaboration Alright It's about Productive Way forward And.
1:04:23
Previous podcasts. Compromise. It exists. It's the way it is.
1:04:28
You can't have all my way or the highway.
1:04:32
We're not Joe Cabot from Reservoir Dogs, where it's my way or the highway,
1:04:39
right? That ain't the way it is.
1:04:41
We have to be civil, good people. And hey, check it out. We need to use critical thinking.
1:04:47
And we need to try to find positive solutions, positive solutions.
1:04:54
Make an effort to just be a little nicer to the general public.
1:05:00
And then keep the Stoics in mind, folks. Look, their philosophy has stood the test.
1:05:08
The Stoic philosophies have stood the test, This has been around since,
1:05:12
I don't know, 700 B.C., somewhere.
1:05:17
Stoic philosophy, right? Control your reaction to things and respond with a little bit of respect.
1:05:27
Treat each other as co-equal fellow humans, not one better or lesser than another.
1:05:36
And I know this is a hard one. And the Christians tell us that we need to love our enemies.
1:05:42
It's hard. But again, enemy is a big, big word.
1:05:47
Enemy is a big, big word, folks. Is there anyone out there who is your enemy?
1:05:53
Think about that. Somebody you're willing to take them and their entire bloodline
1:05:58
off the planet of the earth.
1:06:00
And if so, if you're willing to do that, I mean, Cheers.
1:06:07
That's pretty rough. Now I reckon in modern society, the only people who really
1:06:12
have like proper enemies, I would guess are like gangs, right?
1:06:17
One gang despises another gang so much they're willing to take them and their
1:06:22
entire bloodline off the planet of the earth.
1:06:25
That's very significant, man. You have people you disagree with.
1:06:30
You might have opponents.
1:06:33
Yeah, you might have opponents. You might have competitors.
1:06:37
In your business or whatever, but do you really have enemies?
1:06:42
Don't dehumanize people, right? Don't do that.
1:06:46
Look at the human behind their position. Even though some of these people,
1:06:51
their position has become their personality and their life, and that's tragic
1:06:57
for them, but look beyond that and see that they are human.
1:07:01
And just like with these two shootings, You know, question the sources, right?
1:07:07
Because Renee Good liked to write poetry that has nothing to do with the situation at hand.
1:07:15
So be objective and question the sources that you read these things from and
1:07:21
just pick out the facts, right?
1:07:26
And apply objective reasons to cut through the bias. There's always a bias somewhere.
1:07:33
Just cut through that with objective reasoning.
1:07:39
And when you're having conversations with these humans, listen,
1:07:45
be an active listener, find some common ground.
1:07:48
And if it looks like things are going down a dead-end road on a certain topic, agree to disagree.
1:07:56
Agree to disagree and grab a pint and talk about something else.
1:08:01
No need to cut off someone from being a friend or ally because you don't agree with their politics.
1:08:10
Because you might otherwise be able to build some greatness together.
1:08:19
And I've told you guys this. In my later years, I'm trying to be positive.
1:08:24
I'm trying to be more positive about the way I approach things,
1:08:27
trying to be more positive about outlooks and long term and always looking for positive solutions,
1:08:37
positive solutions to problems.
1:08:40
And that starts locally, folks. That's your media space. That's your neighborhood,
1:08:46
your town, your community.
1:08:49
And if you want to get active in local politics, do that. Do that.
1:08:54
Try to vote in people you know to be of good character. That's where it plays
1:08:58
out. All right. That's where it plays out, local politics.
1:09:01
And then obviously accountability, folks. Hold all these people accountable.
1:09:06
Hold yourself accountable.
1:09:08
Yep. Be responsible in your own words and your own actions and then hold yourself
1:09:16
and other people accountable. There you go.
1:09:19
Harmonious dissent, folks. Harmony might be a big word too, but we can live
1:09:24
in harmony with each other.
1:09:25
We don't have enemies out there. Not many of us have actual enemies.
1:09:30
Just because the parties are divided and the extremes are divided don't mean we have to be.
1:09:38
And we can build stronger communities just by a little active listening, a little bit of empathy.
1:09:46
Yep, that's it. And that's where I'm leaving it, folks. That's where I'm leaving it.
1:09:51
I felt compelled a little bit to talk about it.
1:09:56
This ice stuff is getting a little bit out of control.
1:10:00
The reaction to the ice stuff is getting a little bit out of control.
1:10:05
We got to try to rein this in, this extremism.
1:10:10
We got to try to rein it in. And that's on both sides. It's on both sides.
1:10:15
So make the effort this week. If you're not a nice person, if you're not a friendly
1:10:21
person, I'm not a friendly person necessarily.
1:10:24
Make an effort to be a little kinder to folks this week make an effort to do
1:10:30
a little bit of active listening start with your family and then and then branch out from there,
1:10:38
and then make an effort to have a little more empathy for the other side now
1:10:45
don't start with your family.
1:10:46
Now start from the farthest extreme from your side and try to really empathize
1:10:53
with the human, not the platform.
1:10:56
I'm never going to agree that a commie is correct.
1:11:00
Now they're, they're misguided. They're confused, but I can talk to this person
1:11:07
on a human, human level and maybe try to see how they got there anyway.
1:11:12
And then still maybe go be able to have a pint. That's it, folks.
1:11:16
That's what I'm leaving you with. I appreciate you guys for listening.
1:11:19
This may, again, you know, I feel like my last couple episodes are kind of,
1:11:23
maybe kind of weak because there's, politics is pervasive. It's causing extremes.
1:11:32
We don't want that. We want everyone.
1:11:37
Hopefully, maybe next time I'm going to try to do something around the arts.
1:11:41
Maybe, I don't know, maybe we'll discuss some movies or some.
1:11:44
I don't even know frigging poetry or something, uh, hit, hit me up. Good people.
1:11:49
So the tune, the Juntel podcast.com, you know,
1:11:54
feedback, drop a paper. If you, if you want, you can, you can,
1:11:59
from the website, you can attach files and we'll post those up on the blog.
1:12:07
Yeah. Like, and share and all that stuff for the juntoepodcast.com.
1:12:11
It's on all the platforms.
1:12:14
And then let's see, help a homie fund.
1:12:17
Yeah. Yeah, please continue. Look, those of you that are giving to that,
1:12:22
thank you so much. I appreciate you.
1:12:25
I've never been one to be able to ask for things.
1:12:29
I've always been, I guess, what you might say, fiercely independent or prideful and all that stuff.
1:12:37
But I think now I'm asking you for things in order to help other humans.
1:12:42
I mean, those ain't money, really, but we're not at the capacity right now where
1:12:48
we can take stuff as far as donated clothes or things like that.
1:12:53
But one day we might get there. At any rate, Help a Homie Fund, right?
1:12:57
That's givesingo.com backslash helpahomiefund.
1:13:03
And that's just my, that's my so far best effort to be able to be charitable
1:13:09
at the ground level, at the ground level, which is where I do business.
1:13:14
Okay. Thanks for listening. Please follow all the other stuff.
1:13:18
OspreyshootingSolutions.com, TwoTeamGuys.com.
1:13:22
And please give me your feedback on things. And also suggestions on topics.
1:13:28
Okay. Good people. Take care. Be careful through this cold weather thing we got going through here.
1:13:35
Bad weather, ice and snow and whatnot. Be careful out there.
1:13:39
And love your family. All right, good people. Take care. I love you.