Latest / Regina UNSCRIPTED / The Christmas Miracle That Changed a Boy’s Life | 'In Conversation' with John Sonnen

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The Christmas Miracle That Changed a Boy’s Life | 'In Conversation' with John Sonnen · Regina UNSCRIPTED

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when I was a kid, my grandfather would tell me the story.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: His family shows up for midnight mass in 1925 at their church, and there was a blizzard or something like that.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: So the organist did not show up.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: So the head nun who had directed the choir was in a in a bind, but she knew my grandfather was teaching himself piano.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: She knew that he was kind of a baby Mozart, that he had a real gift for it.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: So she turned to him uh before uh the stroke of midnight and she said, You know, little Louie, can you can you play the organ?
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: Can you save the day for us?
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: Can you can you save Christmas for us?
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: And uh his father was opposed to him pursuing that.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: His father did not think that was suitable for boys.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: So my grandfather suffered in silence.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: Hello and welcome to Regina Unscripted.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Catherine Bennett.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm Mark Lambert.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: And joining us today is our friend and author, John Sonnen.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: You're welcome.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Catherine.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Mark.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: Great to be here.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's good to have you join us.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: And perhaps you could tell us a little bit about yourself for our audience, and then we're going to get into the reason why you're here today to discuss something with us, something very specific.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I I kind of consider myself in some ways a cultural critic.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I've had the chance to live abroad and study different uh sciences related to philosophy, theology, Catholic studies.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so I've always had a strong interest in the subject of Catholic culture and what does Catholic culture mean and how do we cultivate Catholic culture?
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: And as a young baccalaureate um age student in college, I got to know uh the the re uh the writings of a of an English historian by the name of Dr.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: Christopher Dawson.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: And he he helped inspire me.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: And and he, in some ways, through his writings, planted a seed in me to move to Rome, Italy and uh to pursue graduate studies.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so I did that and got a job in the Vatican.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: I was a tour guide and did that for many years.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: And and so my background has been teaching, but but a different kind of teaching, uh uh teaching as a tour guide, as a tour operator.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I did that for eight years, and and it was a very interesting time in my life, just insofar as it was it was a full immersion in Catholic culture, you know, uh living in Rome, working in the Vatican, that sort of thing, being there every every day.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and so and so it changed me in many ways.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then when I returned home to America, uh I wanted to share that um some of those experiences and knowledge with others, and that led me to write my first book, which was on the church of Sant'Anofrio in Rome.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: And now uh I've I've last year I wrote my my second book, which is this children's book called Little Louise A Christmas Miracle.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: And what I what I really envisioned with that was to uh you know create something that uh that could teach, a teaching tool, right, to help evangelize uh not only children, but also their parents, and to try to kind of light the match and and really ignite uh that spirit of Christmas, right?
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: And what Christmas means in the Christian tradition.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: And and the book kind of encompasses various different aspects of Catholic culture.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, you have the home life, you have the school life, and you have the church life.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: So so that was kind of the whole thing behind that.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then and and and the final thing I'd like to say about the book is you know, we live in an age where uh, you know, everyone has everything and yet no one's happy.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's and it's it's an age of of consumerism where the market, the market really is in charge, and the market wants us and needs us to be consumers.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it's called buy, buy, buy, me, me, me.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and so, and that's that's really what Christmas has turned into.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: So hopefully the book will have a good effect on families, parents, and kids alike, you know, planting a seed and and being kind of an invitation for them to consider uh to enter more into the into the mystery of Christmas, you know, what is it really about?
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, is it about giving, is it about receiving, or is it about uh uh really coming to know the the incarnation and and and finding Christ?
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: Well, let's get into that then, John.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: You've covered a lot of ground there, but yeah, I'm really excited about this because I love this time of year.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: The the leaves have started to fall over here, autumn, or as you say, fall is upon us.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then we we have that lead-in to Advent, such a beautiful time in the church, such a quiet time, and then of course this great feast of Christmas.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: But over here, and I'm sure it's the same in America, because we're very happy to blame the Americans for a lot of our commercialization, but over here, the shops are already full of Christmas trees and Christmas things, and they have been for a couple of weeks, uh, which really means late September they started they started filling up.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: And the problem with that is you get Christmas fatigue, you get sort of festivity fatigue by the time you even get to those precious holy days.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um so that's why I'm so excited to have a chance to uh discuss your book and perhaps to encourage our viewers to choose this book this year for a loved one, for a grandchild, a niece, a nephew, a son, a daughter.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um to to remember that it's not about those things you just mentioned, it's not about the material things, uh, and that it's much deeper than that.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_02: And we were talking just before we recorded, weren't we, John, about um Pope John Paul II saying that he he bemoaned this loss of uh focus on the true Christmas story, didn't he?
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_02: Do you want to tell us about that?
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: He did.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: So one of the last things Pope John Paul did before he died, you know, he was alien for a long time.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: He was he was in his mate mid eighties, he had Parkinson's, but but he wrote a book entitled Rise, Let Us Be On Our Way.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it was kind of a forgotten book because you know it was published and then he died.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: And and so it never really, I think, had the the chance to really be be read and known.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it it the book gives a fascinating glimpse of uh kind of his last thoughts on his life, you know, looking back on his priesthood, his childhood, um, his time as a bishop, his time as pope.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and there's a very interesting section of that book where he talks about um his childhood in Poland and the devotion he had to Saint Nicholas.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: And Saint Nicholas in those days, in that part of the world, you know, in Catholic countries, was kind of one of the favorite saints, right?
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: Because Saint Nicholas came on the Feast of St.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: Nicholas every December.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: And and and even when I was a boy, I came from a German family.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: So St.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: Nicholas featured prominently.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: So my father, like my grandfather before him and his father before him, St.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: Nicholas Day, was a big deal.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: So we'd always put our shoes out the night before.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, the shoes were filled uh the morning after.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so Pope John Paul talks about this custom, this tradition, and this excitement in his book, and then he turns and he blames the communists for having flipped uh that that tradition in Poland where he says says the communists came in after World War II, and they had to cancel the church and they had to reinvent the calendar and they had to create a new dystopian secular culture.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so one of the things they did right away is they they they canceled Christmas, but they canceled Saint Nicholas, and so they they reinvented a new figure in Poland.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, this is in in the late 40s, and that's that was Father Christmas or you know, uh Jack Frost or you know, um what whatever it was.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, but you know, one of the things that really that really makes me think, you know, a little deeper about this whole subject is is you can see that a generation before the same thing was happening on a global level, uh, really in the United States, we're we're with the American overreach with our and Americans in some ways invented the science of marketing, but we look at the Coca-Cola company and such.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: And but but the Americans are, you know, they they they themselves brought in this this secular uh you know, Santa Claus character who was you know a product of the of the 20th century and and an invention of of these these architects of of you know, I would say, you know, uh, you know, of secularism.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so so Santa Claus was long being canceled, I think, uh rather St.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: Nicholas, uh, you know, long before that.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: But it's uh it's to the point now where I think for a lot of people, Christmas is just a little old pudgy guy with the white beard who comes down the chimney and leaves presents for a lot of kids, for a lot of families.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a real poverty in that.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: And Pope John Paul talks about that because it takes away, you know, the truth.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: And the truth is that the whole story of Saint Nicholas is uh, you know, the whole story of Santa Claus or Babbo Natale, as they call him in Italy, or whatever he happens to be, uh, Father Christmas in any country, um, it really takes away from from the truth, and the truth being that uh, you know, it's it's Saint Nicholas, right?
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: Saint Nicholas, the Bishop of Myrna, who happens to be buried in Bari, Italy.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, people go there on pilgrimage, they see his tomb.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but he was the first Santa Claus, and uh, and it's such a beautiful tradition to maintain uh and in the Latin and Greek world.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, the the Byzantine Catholics and and and Orthodox have have really maintained a devotion to um uh a strong devotion to Saint Nicholas, but it would be nice to see the same uh a revival of that in the Latin West.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: It is amazing, isn't it, that that's a complete secularization when you think about it.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't really thought about it, John, until you've explained it that way.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: But when you think about it, we are my generation, we've grown up with Father Chris, like that's what Christmas has always been about.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it really is, we've been robbed of that background, of that history, of what it's really about.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: I remember as a child, there was always a disconnect between, you know, like what we did at Mass, going, you know, the fact that we went to Mass and it seemed like this incredibly important feast of the nativity, and yet um at the same time, it there was this big thing about this bloke in a red suit that I could never quite make fit with the rest of the narrative.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a real pity, and it's it's a cultural poverty, and and you know, it's it's just it's part of a whole um, you might say, kind of a whole apparatus of of you know, a process of secularization that we've essentially been experiencing um since since since the time of the Protestant Reformation.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, people ask, you know, what when did all of this really begin, this deconstruction of Catholic culture and Catholic civilization?
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: And and some people blame, you know, I don't know, the Enlightenment or the Enlightenment, or you know, but but they don't go back far enough because it it really began with the Protestant Reformation.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the first time that you know uh these things were questioned.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: And uh always happened to blame the Protestants on this channel, yeah.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's it's a very interesting thing because when you look at the Protestant Reformation before that, you really see how united Europe actually was as as a common culture, you know, as many cultures that that shared a common culture, and that was their Catholic identity.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: And you look at the rich history there of the liturgical calendar and and a calendar which reflected the seasons, and and you see uh, you know, how certain, you know, uh one of the great traits of European culture was the imagination.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: And Newman talks about that and the cultivation of imagination, and it's indisputable.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: You see that in Catholic art and architecture and liturgy and music.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the highest work of art of Western civilization is is is the Roman Rite.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's our liturgy, our mass and office, and and and and with with all that went into that, and then and then the customs behind the feast days and and the you know, feast of St.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: Nicholas is one of many.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: And then in December, there's the Feast of St.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: Lu um Lucy, there's the whole Advent tradition, um, and then the whole tradition of midnight mass.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: But for for for people today, they know nothing of these things.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: And the Ember days, there was always the Ember days, you know, in the autumn and winter.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think, you know, in really kind of you know, reevaluating all of this, we we can see, you know, the importance of kind of uh, you know, the the need to kind of reignite the magic of Christmas.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: And in some ways, Dickens did that in 19th century England, where a lot of those secular voices had really kind of ba humbugged Christmas, you know.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: And then Dickens writes this marvelous Christmas carol, this marvelous work, which kind of reignites, you know, the true meaning of Christmas, you know, that that you know, forget about the ba humbugs, you know.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, what about Tidy Tim?
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: And what about you know, the true, the true joy and the true magic of Christmas?
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so, um, so I'm optimistic for the future, but but we have a lot of work ahead of ourselves, I think, in in kind of re-Christianizing society in this in this in this area and putting Christmas back on track where it belongs.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and and sometimes you'll even see bumper stickers, you know, uh, in the US around Christmas time.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: They're magnets, but Christians and Catholics will put them on their cars and it says, keep Christ in Christmas.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's a message that uh is more relevant today than ever.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's like we've forgotten that that that's the origin of the word Christmas, of course, you could it's inescapable.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: And you were inspired, you've mentioned a few reasons uh behind what inspired you to write this book.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: But if we show our audience now a few of the images from your book, perhaps you could, without giving too much away, so obviously we hope people will in will will pick up a copy.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: Do you want to tell us a little more?
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: You mentioned your grandfather there, who is little Louie, and what's the story?
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, why do you think people should go out this Christmas or in preparation for Christmas to to pick up a copy?
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so the book is is is extraordinary on a few levels.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: One of the one of the things that I think that appeals the most to people uh is that it's a true story.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: So it's uh it's a it's it's a story, it's the story of my grandfather who was born in 1911.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: And when he was a boy, um he always uh had a love for music and he had a knack for music.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: And they had a his family had an old dilapidated organ uh in storage in the upstairs that nobody ever played.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then they had a beautiful new piano they purchased uh for his sister, and that piano was a big purchase in those days uh in the 1920s.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: They paid$500 for it.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: We still have the piano in the family, and we still have the receipt uh for the purchase.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so that piano was just uh the centerpiece of the house.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: And and my my grandfather's sister uh played it, uh, but he he was the one with the real gift for music.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: And uh his father was opposed to him pursuing that.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: His father did not think that was suitable for boys.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: So my grandfather suffered in silence, but but he would hear for hours and hours his sister playing.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: And his his brain, because he had a musical brain, he uh he was he was recording all of this information in his head.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and uh and then he would go upstairs uh when nobody was around and he'd play on the on the dusty old organ and he'd he'd punch out uh all of those songs.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so so he had this love for music, uh, he had this gift for music.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then the whole genesis of the story is that uh, you know, when I was a kid, my grandfather would tell me the story, and uh, and it I always felt it was a story worth telling.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so what he does then is uh is is his family shows up for midnight mass in 1925 at their church, and there was a blizzard or something like that.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: So the organist did not show up.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: So how do you have midnight mass without with without without music, without an organ?
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: So uh so the head nun who had directed the choir was was in a uh in a bind, but she knew my grandfather was was teaching himself piano.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: She knew that he was uh kind of a baby Mozart, that he had a real gift for it.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: So she turned to him uh before uh the stroke of midnight and she said, you know, little Louie, can you can you play the organ?
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: Can you save the day for us?
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: Can you can you save Christmas for us?
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: And he was just just just a young lad.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: So um he had never really played the piano before.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: He had certainly never played the organ uh before in church.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so so he agreed to play that night, uh, and that was Christmas Eve 1925.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: So he went up there uh and he played all the Christmas songs that he it was all up here.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: He didn't know how to read uh the the notes or sheet music.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: So so he played from memory the whole mass, one Christmas song after another, and and a curier and a gloria, and uh and so so it was a real marvel that he had this gift.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so the nun recognized this, the pastor recognized this, the whole parish community recognized that.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: So so then then they paid for him to uh uh to have mute music lessons, and then he became the the choir director and the organist at this church for 72 years.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and he he held that role until the year 1997 when he retired.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: So so the whole book is essentially uh that story of Christmas Eve and uh and then his his kind of swinging in on the chandelier and saving the day by uh by playing uh the organ for midnight mass.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: Very interesting story.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I I think one of the biggest appeals is that it is a true story, uh, that it's you know it helps reignite the magic of Christmas, um, that it's the story of a young boy.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's uh it's the story of you know, uh a nun.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: So the nun features prominently.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: She was the the choir director.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: Love a nun, love a nun, story with a nun, folks.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: Come on, pick it up.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so and the nun lived to be quite elderly, so she she stayed in touch with my grandfather for many years.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then uh, and so so I kind of wanted to honor her as well.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: So Sister Johanna is her name.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: So the book ends with an epilogue where I kind of explain a little more detail about her and my grandfather, and uh, so but just an extraordinary thing that uh, you know, here here is you know a boy who loved music, uh, whose father was totally opposed to him pursuing that interest.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then in a bind, you know, he's able to, you know, kind of be airdropped into the into the organ seat.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: He plays the organ.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then and then once once he did that, then his family accepted his gift, you know, and then and then he was able to pursue this interest and these studies, and then and then in the end, his father gave him the piano.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: So um when his parents died, then that piano ended up in my grandfather's house, which which we still have to this day.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_02: That's so lovely.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: And that and that will have been a hundred years since that real event um being recaptured by you in this in this story.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the timing of the book was perfect.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: So in 2024, I was I went back to this church where all of this happened, the Church of the Assumption in downtown St.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: Paul, and I got chatting with the priest after Mass.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: And he was the priest I knew as a young boy, and he knew my grandfather who was employed there as the choir director and organist.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: So so it was a real pleasure to reconnect with him.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: And then in that moment, I reconnected uh with a friend who happened to be standing there who's an artist who who who illustrates children's books.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: So he and I were able to um kind of in that moment, we I I I kind of I kind of had this idea of the book, and I and I said, well, to my friend Bill, I said, Well, Bill, why don't we why don't I write this book?
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: You can illustrate it.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think of that?
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, Absolutely.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then it was able, uh, we were able to write it.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: I was able to write it, and he was able to illustrate it within a year, and then it went to print just in time uh for uh for Christmas last year.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: Perfect.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: What do you want, what do you want people to get from the book, John?
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: What's like what are you trying to inspire by telling us this story?
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so the whole point of the book for me is I really hope that the book will inspire kids to really have a love for Christmas, you know, that have a glow for Christmas, you know, is kind of the word that I always think of here, you know, because it is it is it's Christmas is intimately, I think, connected with the human imagination, right?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: And and what better storyline than this whole concept of a God becoming man?
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he's born penniless, you know, homeless in a manger.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I had the great privilege of visiting uh Bethlehem for the first time 20 years ago.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: And when you visit the manger, you see that uh it was actually a cave where Jesus was born.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: And and so when you go down.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: In this cave, um, it's really quite extraordinary because you see kind of how pathetic it was in so many ways, you know, um, that God would humble himself to become a man, and that God would humble himself to be born uh in a stable like this, right?
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, and the way they heated the stable was with the animals, right?
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: So a cold winter's night, uh, you know, the star of Bethlehem, it's it's it's the greatest story ever told.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: So to be able to kind of capture that magic and that glow and then kind of plant the seed of you know, the uh the beauty of midnight mass.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like what a beautiful tradition that uh that at 12 o'clock midnight we gather, the bells ring, you know, um, you know, we have mass, and uh it's just such a great way to begin the celebration.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: And and so I really hope that, you know, families reading this, parents reading this, kids reading this, that they'll really um that they'll really develop, you know, that it can really help cultivate a love uh for Christmas in in their hearts, right?
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: Something they can always carry with them, um, and something that will always be deeply liturgical.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because Christmas, you know, it it's it's not just the birth of Christ, but it's it's coming together, it's worshiping him on that day in church and praying together.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: And then I always think of the creed at midnight mass, you know, when we say, and the word was made flesh, and you know, everyone bows, you know, it's the word was made flesh on on in that moment, right?
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, on that night.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: So so that's definitely that's definitely my wish for the book.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: Can we go back then to Rome?
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: Is that all right if we go back?
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: Because I I've busting to ask you look, there's loads of things I want to know about your experiences in Rome.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like, for example, what was the if like you must have found out loads of secret, amazing places while you were working in Rome?
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: What's the most uh amazing secret place that you loved going to that you discovered when you were working in Rome?
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so one of one of the most interesting uh places in Rome is the Basilica of St.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: Mary Major, and that is that is the oldest Marian shrine in the West, and it is the largest church dedicated to Our Lady in Rome, and it is the oldest church dedicated to our lady in Rome.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: And and that is the station church for Christmas Day in the Latin church and the Roman church.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, in the Middle Ages, the Pope would go there and he would celebrate Mass.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: And and there were three station churches uh for Christmas in Rome, you know, as the Pope would process.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: And but the reason St.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: Mary Major has always been my favorite place to visit in Rome, and one of Rome's best kept secrets, is because there you have in the Confessio under the high altar uh what is believed to be uh parts of the crib from Bethlehem, where Christ was born.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so that's that's a relic that has been in Rome for for hundreds and hundreds of years, uh, a relic that was brought, uh it's believed brought to Rome, I think by Saint Jerome um in the fifth century.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: But in any event, uh fascinating uh place to visit.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so Saint Mary Major is a special place to visit on Christmas Eve because what they do is they bring that crib relic, that reliquary up.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: So it's normally kept down below in a special chapel called the Confessio, but uh for midnight mass, they they bring it up the stairs, they have all these guys carry it up and they they put it up in front of the altar.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, and so when you're there on Christmas Eve at St.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: Mary Major, you have a real opportunity to go very close to the relic uh and see it.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: And you can see the wood, you know, through the the mineral crystal, the glass, and and you can see, you know, even some scribbles on it, or some writing, you know, because because you're up so close.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that's a wonderful uh thing to see.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a wonderful place to visit.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: I I bring all my pilgrims there when I when I when I go to Rome with with friends or family or others, I always make sure to stop uh St.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: Mary Major, make sure everybody sees uh the crib from Bethlehem.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and so I think that's yeah, that's just uh that's just kind of a magical place to see that uh that is my favorite.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: There's loads of things in St.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: Mary Major, though, isn't there?
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh like one of the amazing things was the summer snows.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: What was that 385 AD or something like that?
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, 350.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so that that's another extraordinary story where uh, you know, it was the night of August the 4th to August 5th in the fourth century AD, and everyone knows Rome is is a terribly hot place in the month of August.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but it snowed that night.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: There was a little blizzard there on the Esquiline Hill, which is the highest hill in Rome.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it snowed right there where the church is located today.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: And there were many hundreds of eyewitnesses who saw this, and but there's a there's a there's a twist to the story.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: So that night the Pope had a dream that there was a snowstorm.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: And and that same night, uh another man uh in Rome had had the same dream, uh John the patrician, we call him.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: And and in the dream, uh it was revealed that there was to be this the snowstorm, and a church was to be built on that location dedicated to our lady.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: So the morning came and word spread through Rome.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: There was the snowfall in the Esquiline, and word reached the Vatican.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: And and so so everyone went to the Esquiline and saw this, and the Pope went, and then, and so they took it then as kind of a divine, um, you know, divine mandate to build there at that location.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so they began construction almost immediately.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: There had been a Roman villa there that's still there to this day, it's underground um under the basilica, but they just put up this beautiful church and uh and the Pope built it, uh Pope Liberius and then John the Patrician financed it.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's called the Liberian Basilica in honor of Pope Liberius who built it.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, and so there's always been this devotion to Our Lady of Snows there.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: So every August 5th, they have a big celebration and they they sprinkle jasmine petals through a ceiling tile that there's a coffered ceiling, they remove the tile, and all of these thousands of little white jasmine, you know, uh petals come down in commemoration of that snowfall.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: So to honor our lady of snows.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh, so yeah, St.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: Mary Major is a fascinating place, beautiful church, uh, one of one of the prettiest, I think, in the world.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: And the obviously the other amazing thing I think about it is the Salus Popoli Romani, isn't it?
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it has one of the, yeah, the Salus Popoli Romani is one of the most beloved of icons for Romans.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: There's many, many icons in Rome, but for the Roman people, um, they're very partial to the Salus Popoli Romani.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: And and so that's located in the famous Borghese chapel of St.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: Mary Major.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: And and that that painting is at least a thousand years old.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: There's a tradition that goes back to the Paleo-Christian era that Saint Saint Luke painted it.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's been restored in recent years.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's a real gem, it's uh a miraculous icon, and uh such a joy to visit there, to pray there.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's it's always uh it's it just warms the heart.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: And that chapel is particularly beautiful.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and there's there's just beautiful gold work and and and marble work and uh lots of blue marble.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's the lapis lapsuli marble that comes from Persia from modern-day Iran.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, St.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: Mary Major is a real gem of of immeasurable beauty.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: Did you do much in the scavi?
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what did you did you got any stories about that?
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: Which is that for people who don't know, that's the that's like the excavation underneath St.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: Peter's, isn't it?
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: Where you can walk all the way through to where St.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: Peter's remains were actually kept.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the Scobi Tour is a great opportunity for anyone who can visit Rome.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of a VIP experience, but you have to book through the Vatican, and it's a small group tour.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's where you go down into the sub-basement under the basement, under the crypt of St.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: Peter's Basilica.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: So when you go all the way down there, you're on the ground level of the first century A.D.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: So you're down where St.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: Peter walked, and uh, you know, the Emperor Nero would have walked.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: And and there's a pagan necropolis down there, a cemetery, an old Roman cemetery from the first century.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that's located next to the old uh stadium uh where where St.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: Peter was martyred.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: So uh when Peter was martyred there in about 68 A.D., then he was buried in in the in the cemetery located next door.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: So the whole reason for St.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: Peter's Basilica is that it's it's all built over the tomb, the original tomb of St.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: Peter.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: So so the dome of Michelangelo and the Baldechino of Bernini and the altar of Pope Clement, all of this is a direct uh linear um kind of funerary monument, so to speak, built directly over the tomb of Peter.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: So the Scavi Tour is an amazing opportunity to go down there to learn all about uh Peter, his time in Rome, his martyrdom, um, his seven years in Antioch before he came to Rome, uh his ministry in Rome where he lived on the Aventine and Trastevere.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then the tour ends by by you actually see his bones through a box donated by NASA.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a glass special uh box, and and and you you see what's left of his bones, and you learn all about how they were um accidentally discovered, you know, uh after a fashion, you know, after excavations began um in 1940 and secret excavations during the second world war, they didn't want people to know.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then and then they found the bones and then confirmed the bones and then never admitted, uh they never came up with a full report until 1968.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so almost it was like an ossuary, wasn't it, with like Petrus ABS or something scratched on it?
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, it's kind of a strange thing.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: So, so they they were kind of they they had all these different theories of what it would look like, the bones, or would they be in a golden box or whatever, and this and that, but but they were discovered in in the ruins in in in in what would have been a uh a silk cloth that would have been the purple, it would have been the violet, the cover of porphyry, but it was all decayed and rotten, but but they had like microscopic and little little pieces of this thread around these bones, right?
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: So, so the theory is that Constantine would have maybe possibly taken his cloak off or something like that and and wrapped the bones, because he would have been the last person to see them as he is as he placed them in this cavity, right?
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because only the emperor was allowed that color, um, violet, right?
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: So that was the imperial color.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: So so we know so so the historians believe that beyond beyond beyond reasonable doubt, uh, you know, though those actual bones that they discovered were Peter's, given that they were in that location, but also, you know, wrapped in this in this purple silk, right?
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so uh, but but the last time the tomb had been opened was the fourth century AD by Constantine.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: So it had never been open after that.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's quite extraordinary that that they be that they did open it in the 20th century, and they never intended to in the beginning.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: In the beginning, they just intended on lowering the floor in in the grottos in the crypt, and then and that began in 1940, and they just kept digging and digging and digging, and then and then, yeah, so then there was the the the all these different cavities where other people wanted to be buried around Peter.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: So, um, so and there was graffiti, and but you know, some of the graffiti indicated uh, you know, that Peter was there, that people these people wanted to be buried near Peter, um, and and so on and so forth.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: But but the tomb was very humble.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: So when they when they found the tomb, um, you know, it the the the location was was exactly where they they assumed it would be, directly, you know, um you know, where these previous altars had been built all under the ground, and and uh but but but truly, truly fascinating.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_02: Brilliant.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, John.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks so much for joining us this afternoon and telling us about your time in Rome, about the pilgrimages.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: I think you're the person I'd like to bring with me next time I go to Rome or when I go to Rome.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_02: This this is meant to be something I do for my 50th birthday, and that's coming up in December.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe, maybe in December, I've got your book, your Christmas book, and I've got my uh my trip to Rome, and maybe bring you in my handbag to help me, to help me around.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: Sounds like a deal.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm all in.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_02: Good, good, good.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thanks once again, and we hope that you, our viewers, do pick up that book, that lovely little book, called Little Louis, inspired by that wonderful story of John's own grandfather, and to remember uh what you know, that that glow as as John mentions often about around Christmas and maybe take away from the constant distraction and the flashing neon lights that are going on in the shops at this time.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_02: But John, thank you very much for joining us.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Catherine.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Mark.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: God bless you guys.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: God bless.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_02: Bye bye.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: Bye bye.