Latest / Real STRength with Sarah Draper / Creating Space for Healthy Leadership with Joel Junker | #20
Transcript
- speaker-0: Today I'm joined by Joel Junker. And this conversation is a little different. What came up for me were these three words. Metanoia, transformation, and space. What is life asking of me right now? speaker-1: Is it always gonna be as heavy? speaker-0: Welcome to the Future Walk Podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Drapert. Each week on the podcast, I explore tools to help you lead your best now and into the future, and I talk with top leaders to see how they stay focused when life gets cluttered. It's time to stop reacting to your life and start leading it. Welcome to Future Walk. Welcome to the Future Walk Podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Draper, and I'm so glad you're here. Today I'm joined by Joel Junker. And this conversation is a little different from my usual ones because Joel's not just a guest. He's a friend, a colleague, and someone I deeply respect. So I'm really excited and grateful, Joel, that you're on the show today. Joel's an executive coach and a leadership consultant who spent more than two decades helping leaders navigate critical transitions. He's a senior vice president at Cameron Brooks, where he's helped thousands of military officers transition from the military to corporate America. He's a professional certified coach through the International Coaching Federation. And he's a fellow graduate of Gonzaga University's Master of Arts and Organizational Leadership Program. We both completed the same program. It was transformative for both of us, which we're going to get into today. We did it a few years apart. But that's how we first came in contact with each other. And last year we we met when I was a guest on his podcast. And then it was like beautiful. Full circle moment. I had the honor of delivering the alumni speech at his graduation from Gonzaga ⁓ last spring. And we're now we're both alumni ambassadors for Gonzaga's School of Leadership Studies, and we are deeply aligned on this core belief that healthy leaders are strong leaders. His work focuses on helping leaders when the role changes faster than they do. He helps leaders. Move from transactional to transformational leadership and his own journey through that Gonzaga program, including a Mount Adams climb in Washington State, it fundamentally changed how he leads and lives, as it did for me. This is a powerful, powerful example of what is possible when leaders invest in their own growth. So I'm so grateful he's here. Really looking forward to hearing his story, exploring that, his transformation. and what is going on with Joel Junker right now. So Joel, welcome to the podcast. speaker-1: And thank you, Sarah. Well if I didn't have a ⁓ a confidence boost starting my day to day I have one now. I feel good. speaker-0: There you go. I'll just like show up for you every day. We'll record this and just press play in the morning. You you are a great person. ⁓ my gosh. ⁓ I'm so glad you're here. You know, one of my practices before I do this podcast, and it's a future wag podcast, and I I do this like for different reasons and and and times throughout my kind of day, week, month, etc. But before every podcast. I got everything all set up, I get all my notes, I review them one more time, and then I go on a future walk. And just do like five or ten minutes to just really try to distill down what is most important about the conversation or what do I anticipate is gonna be most important about the conversation I'm about to have. And for you, what came up for me were these three words metanoia, transformation, and space. Hmm. What's that mean here? speaker-1: Well we probably need to define metanoia first. I'm not even sure I'm saying it right. yeah, the Greek term metanoia fundamental shift of one's being, one way of of thinking. I'm not sure of the true definition. I've never really looked it up. I've had the Dr. Carey and Dr. Popa tell me ⁓ what it means. But it's Greek, pretty sure. And it's just this fundle fundamentally different way of looking at something or of being. And ⁓ yeah, I've had ⁓ a few metametanoias over the last few years. and then yeah, tre that'll be fun to talk about. Transformation. That's a that's a big word. ⁓ that ⁓ transformed my thinking ⁓ with our in the space piece. W that's that future walk that you're talking about, which I wanna add on to. Please ⁓ we talked about on the podcast that we did together. on this power of of sitting in silence as well. I think they both have a great purpose on self care but also of of really figuring out what's important. So yeah, that's it's gonna be great diving into these topics. Where do we go with those three? speaker-0: Where do we go? Perfect. Let's you know, we have so much alignment, but I I don't, you know, I don't I don't want to make any assumptions ⁓ about certain of of these things. And so I just shared that, you know, before we talked, do this practice of this feature walk, and that's what came up with for you. Do you do any walking and thinking? speaker-1: Yeah, I do. ⁓ first of all, I I've been called a deep thinker before. So ⁓ I think that's part of just my nature. And I love to to go for walks. I just love being outside, love walking my dog. I go for a walk with my wife Susan after dinner in the evenings. And even that ends up being a bit of a future walk because we end up talking about a little bit about the day, but what's going on tomorrow, where we're going on our trips. And I love to hike and be outside. I love to, you know, going back to Mount Adams here in three weeks as a mentor. And ⁓ that's a version of a walk, and the future in that mountain is always a metaphor back to what's happening in our life. And ⁓ so I'm doing some more training on that. I told you I can't wait to talk a little bit about this future walk that I did without even knowing I did it. I was on vacation in Aruba ⁓ back in early May when you reached out. And ⁓ I love sitting on the beach and reading, but I can't sit too long. So I just love walking on the beach back and forth and and I didn't know it but I was doing a future walk and then you reached out to be a guest center. He's like, I've been doing that every day. speaker-0: That's fantastic. That's awesome. What ⁓ what what would like and what came up for you during that time? You ha you've built this into your rhythm. So this is a big part. I I mean I love first of all just highlighting you do this with Susan. That's something Rod and I do my husband. That's the origin of the future walk is something one of these evening walks, after dinner walks we did long, long ago. ⁓ that's where this came from, just this idea of being outside, talking or thinking intentionally, moving forward, what's happening with your brain. what's happening in your social at the social aspects and psychology and all that. So I I love that this is such an important part of your your rhythms. speaker-1: Yeah. So I'm I wanna get there, but I wanna go back to something to to the listeners about the importance of because you mentioned the psychology and the walk. Mm-hmm. And this goes back to the story and it's gonna tie into this walk that I did on the beach many times. So walking and you can let your mind wander. You know, you've done all the studies, but the other part of walking too that has been letting my mind wander and get on a topic and go with it, that's helpful. But the other part has been help super helpful because I know you do mindfulness training is being mindful on my walk. And ⁓ I actually learned this by listening to Judd Brewer. He's ⁓ you can somebody can look him out. I can't remember what his website's called, but he's a ⁓ psychologist. And when I walk And you noticing I'm seeing. So you see trees, I see trees. I feel my feet hitting the the ground. I feel the wind on my hands. ⁓ I see a bar. ⁓ so seeing, feeling, sensing, and you keep noticing this because sometimes our minds just that monkey mind goes helpful on the walk sometimes where we're trying to wrestle with something that's good on the walk. But I also think there's a good part of a walk. And I do this for breaks during work. I think we talked about this last time, mindfulness snacks, where walk outside, feel this, and I and I just notice, feel the sun, brightness of the sun, see the grass, the wind on my hands. And that just centers like right now, I'm in this moment. And this moment is really what matters the most to be present. So I know the future walk is important, but I also want to bring this part of. Something that was really helpful at a time for me when while I was just carrying a lot, I was going on these walks in the morning and every morning I was just trying to get centered. ⁓ so that was super helpful. So I wanted to share that. speaker-0: appreciate that that you brought up like that importance and that can't be overstated the importance of mindfulness and and how the tool of walking can help bring you back to that present moment just by sending your attention to a feeling a sensation of a whatever right and that that's a really important part of this too and that's kind of part of the way the brain works as well. It like you mentioned the monkey mind it can get all over the place. But can you do you have a skill do you have tool to bring it back. ⁓ I can just feel my feet on the ground. ⁓ I can notice the sunshine, just a sensation that brings your mind back to where you are to help you. Maybe, maybe that is that moment is what you are working through. Or maybe you do want to let have a longer walk, you know, like after 15 or 20 minutes when the default mode network can kind of elevate in in an ⁓ activity in your brain and let your mind wander more freely. It takes a little while time for your brain to warm up. Maybe that's what you want to get to. And that can be a longer walk that helps that happen. But just really bringing yourself back to that moment, because I struggle with it, I know others do too. You hide out all well intended and you're you're so distracted that you're not really getting to ⁓ what you want to accomplish. So having something that you can do to bring you back and then return yourself to the intention for that walk. speaker-1: Yeah, you know, we talked about I know I'm still not getting to your question, but your model which you can correct me, but healthy leaders are strong leaders. And that if if taking that time during the day to just go for the walk, to be back centered in that present moment is refreshing. It's centering. And ⁓ otherwise we're just grinding through the day, moving from one conversation to the next to the next. And I've actually d done that all day this morning, but this ⁓ from you know 815 all the way till you know it's one twenty-five right now central time, it has been back-to-back conversations and I've been jumping topics. But one thing that really helped me this morning ⁓ that I do every day is I sit in the the ten minutes of silence. Yeah. And that silence really ⁓ centers me. And ⁓ so back to the original question, the future walk. So the for the listeners, I was on vacation in early May ⁓ with Susan, my spouse, and we were in Aruba ⁓ for celebrating our thirtieth wedding anniversary. speaker-0: Congratulations. That's phenomenal. That's great. Four kids, right? Amazing. speaker-1: Yeah, four kids, thirty years. And ⁓ yeah, just an incredible gift. And so I love to walk on ⁓ on the beach and Ruby's just got some great beaches to go for long walks on. And so Sarah, you emailed me during this vacation to be a guest and about the future walk. I went and watched the YouTube videos about this, and I was like, Boy, I'm already doing this. So here's what happened on that on on that on that beach. I was going for a walk one day. And I was trying to make sense of this year ⁓ twenty it was really twenty twenty four. September of twenty twenty-three, really till the end of September of December of twenty twenty four, really trying to make sense of just some changes in the business environment that we're in, changes in the team that I lead here, people that I built a career with that were no longer in the organization that I clearly miss, like being around and working with. ⁓ a health issue for Susan that we navigated through. And this is where the metanoia came through. And I talked about it in another podcast with ⁓ Dr. Kerry. You had so that's why I don't want to ⁓ from Gonzaga, I want to repeat the whole story, but I was trying to make sense of this. So we I was done with the block, I was thinking through and was like, okay, I'm gonna write, I'm just gonna write a reflection on this. No, no intent where it went. So we get done with the beach in the morning, we go back to the Airbnb. And should be taking a nap and relaxing. And I couldn't, so I wrote the reflection. And then later that afternoon, I was like, ⁓ I started going for a walk thinking about something else. It's like, let me write a reflection on this. And then so over that week I wrote ten reflections. Wow. From this experience of Susan navigating this health, issue the metanoia that I went through of really like speaker-0: ⁓ speaker-1: surrendering control, letting go of the control that I trying to always I thought leadership was like I gotta control everything. Mm-hmm. But leadership is so much more complex than that. And then I was reflecting on this note that one of my team members who's since retired, her name's Mary Lou, has on her bulletin board. When it's still there, it's called It's Not About Me. And I'll even send you a picture of it. And so I wrote about like how Mary Lou Was one of the most selfless people I've ever been around in my entire life, had that note on her board and what that meant to her and what it should have meant to be meant to me. And so the next thing I knew is had 10 to 12 of these chapters, and I was like, well, let's just write a few more. And I was like, you know, I've always thought of writing like a reflection for this transformational, self-transcendent leader. in transformational self-transcendent leader are really big words but it's not about me is really not that big of a word. It's really what I want to do. So I was like I wonder if I have something that could become a book. So there's this whole industry of what they call hybrid publishers where ⁓ and there's certain versions of them where where they'll you pay them. So I don't want you to think this is like penguin or speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Arper Collins or somebody big reaching and like, hey, we want to publish a book by Joel Junker. I'm you made me feel special when you start, but I'm not that special. And ⁓ so I reached out to one and I was like, I actually reached out to two. And one got back to me within a week and said, We are this is different. We've never seen anything like this. We are very interested in it. Finish the manuscript and ⁓ let's where we want to see where this goes. So another one said, Hey, it doesn't really fit our mold, we were gonna refer you to somebody else. speaker-0: Come on, come on. speaker-1: But I have somebody that's interested in this. And I finished the manuscript in in like 10 weeks. And it's fifty-two and it's it's fifty-two reflections on on this ⁓ this journey of the really the the arc of it is leaders shape organizations, organizations shape people, and the people then end up impacting all these other people. How do we be thinking about as a leader that this isn't about us? It's about how we are impacting other people and how do we do that and make sense of it? So what you'll find in the book ⁓ when you say I don't know when this is gonna come out, the I submitted to the publisher was all excited. It was actually he's on vacation, so he's gonna get back to me next week. so I don't know when it's gonna come out, but what I'm really proud of ⁓ in the book is speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: The core characters in every chapter are not about me. They're about other people interacting with me, things they've shared with me, things that I'm still wrestling with. I'm never it's never a a topic that I've arrived with, but something that I'm still wrestling with. And there's no famous people at the center. This is not like Ryan Holiday, who's written some great like the Daily Stoic and things like that, but those are with really you know, famous historical people. And those are good. I don't want to be that. I don't need to I'll never be those types of writers. But these are just good, humble, normal people living everyday lives, ⁓ good leaders, passing on great leadership lessons to me and how they've they've ⁓ they've shaped me. So that ended up being my future walk, doing those walks and all of a sudden I ended up with a manuscript for a book. ⁓ And see where it goes. Does that does that meet the future walk intent even though I even speaker-0: So I'll give it. I'll give it. That's great. Yes. Just like creating. ⁓ my gosh. Well, it's just so much, so much there, and a number of things I'm going to go back to, but to answer that question, creating speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: You didn't really create it for you because it's always been a part of you. Like you love outdoors, you love doing this, but really embracing those circumstances that help you do your best thinking. And some say, you know, creating the circumstances that help you do your best work, walking, walking in nature, walking while thinking, being outside quiets the noise and that brain stuff's happening. If you're with someone else, there's some psychological stuff happening, social dynamics, all these different things that are conspiring. for you to do your best thinking. And I love, love, love that you've just come back and written about it, right? We've written those reflections. And then making it something to share with others. That's it's truly be like brilliant and beautiful. That's fantastic. speaker-1: And so what I would do through the rest of the vacation is I would go on the the walk and there would be like an idea. And so I'd go back to my phone and I would type in the idea. And then I'd go for another walk and I type in the three ideas. And so all of a sudden I ended up with like twenty-five, twenty-six, twenty-seven ideas of of topics that I could write about. And you know, in full disclosure, AI didn't write it for me, but I did use AI to say this is what I'm building. Here are my chapters, where are my gaps? And this is where it would say you need something on ⁓ You need something on forgiveness. I was like, okay, I need a top, I need a ⁓ I've got that. And and so I have all these characters, I have all these family members, and it's like, you haven't written about your brother yet. I was like, well, when has my brother taught me this leadership lesson? I went for a I went for a walk. This is after, this is recently that went for a walk, and there's this story that I'm super proud of. And I'm gonna share this story. Hopefully this will resonate with people. Thanks. And and so I this is my brother taught me without really meaning to teach me that you as a leader are going to make decisions that are gonna make people unhappy and you can't run around and try to keep making them happy. And I didn't even it once you made the decision. And you know that being in the army and the FBI, being a parent for crying out loud, you know that. You can't spend all your time making a tough decision and in that. So I came up with that concept to write on a walk, but this is how my brother taught me this. I was seventeen years old. This is the great thing about the book. It goes from like teenager all the way up to now, just experiences. But I was 17, my brother and I ⁓ lived our in our house is right next to the the city baseball field. We played there, we coached select teams there, then we ended up ⁓ umpiring there. And so my brother and I are umpiring a junior league fourteen year olds, pretty you know, select baseball game. It was one of those games if you've ever been a part of where it got real intense real fast. speaker-0: Out of time. speaker-1: Team, yeah, out-of-town team, hometown team. And then there's a lot of close calls. You know, it's just like fucking fire. You know, we're just doing the best we can we can. My brother's 20, I'm 17. We know baseball. Probably didn't get everything right. And ⁓ the other team was getting got upset with us and the game was over, they lost. And my brother and I went to the concession stand, the the equipment shed, and he's leaning against the counter, eating a hot dog. Drinking a soda, get we're getting ready for the next game, we're gonna umpire. Well, the other team coaches and players come up to the concession stand and they start yelling at us. Getting mad at us and everything. No, this is great. It's the greatest nobody's gonna remember this story except for me. Because it's like the greatest lesson ever. Yeah. I'm like rattled. I'm a harmony guy. And I don't like this. My brother just keeps eating his hot dog. And the guy coach's done kind of getting mad and yelling, and the brother says, All right, you done? He's like, ⁓ yeah. And my brother's like, You can go now. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: And they leave. And I'm like, ⁓ my gosh. And it's like, Joel, man, let this go. This is just a game. We made some tough calls, but so what? It's such a game. And I think about that when I was writing that chapter, for example, walking, I was like, okay, what is the lesson here? This is a story. It's like the lesson is you're gonna make tough decisions ⁓ as a leader. You're gonna make tough decisions. And you can't run around and make everybody happy and calm everything down. It's just gonna happen. And you don't need to escalate. So that also came up on a walk. And that was just the genesis of how all these chapters just kept coming and coming. They were probably I'd never intended to write a book. In fact, I wrote the intro introduction. The first sentence is, I never intended to write a book. This happened by going on a walk on vacation, and the ideas just kept coming as I was going on these walks. speaker-0: It's like waves, just as you're there, like the ideas just keep coming in for you. You're on this endless beach, probably you're seeing like just your mind is expansive because of all these factors, environmental and otherwise. It just keeps coming. That's brilliant. That's so beautiful. Thank you. I ⁓ one you know, one thing comes up for me that made me recall and I do not remember remember the name of the ref, but it was during the women's world cup. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: less time. And so it was a few years back, it might have been the final or the semifinal, and there was a call, and the players were in the ref's face. And she was so calm, cool, and collected. And she she explained the reasoning. She heard them out. They kept trying to advocate for their side. I'll have to pull this clip up again because it is ⁓ just phenomenal to watch, like a phenomenal lesson on leadership, on how you're energy extends way beyond you and she just like explained it was calm You know, and they kept trying and then the whole thing kind of dissipated, right? And and people ex accepted whatever the call was and and played on. And and I look at that, I I I look at that as a great like leadership example. Your brother was at demonstrated that too, right? You can't please everyone, and your energy is going to extend out to those others. We match that. So what a nice, nice lesson. Thank you. speaker-1: I'm gonna pull that through though, because it's another thing that I talked about in the draft of the book. You talked about the energy. And I think this is the point of the future walk and getting people to walk. And I'm gonna just add my two cents. I know it's your podcast, but I'm gonna add my two cents. Add, add, add. Yeah, sure. It's but also this time and silence, too. even just sitting in and meditating or in in some sort of meditative prayer or just regular meditation. What they do is they they create this, ⁓ you talked about the ref, or did my brother just naturally has that way of being him. Although I think inside he's churning. I think he just doesn't tell you that. Like I just show you everything. there's something about that calm, that centering that people pick up on more than your words. And that's what that walk does for you, does for us, all of us, five minutes, thirty minutes. puts us in that center, even if it's not a centering walk, even if it's just like I'm getting my mind in the right place, and I'm and I'm ⁓ reflecting and I'm clearing away all that dust, all that heavy, the meditation does the same thing as well. And so that's why I really think the medit the the future walk is a great concept for clearing What's below the surface? What is underneath of to still it's what it does is it stills that. I don't have all the science. You probably have put that in your introduction, all the science about the walks and things like that. But so does just sit in like sit, you it's five thirty in the morning and just sit in the dark on the couch with the dog next to me with my eyes closed in silence. So they both just do so much and encourage probably your listeners are already doing that, ⁓ if they're coming here, but just encourage that it takes time. And the the benefits they do pay off because the transformation for me, use that word, that was a big component of my transformation, is spending that time in silence and clearing away and settling to get to my really core of who am I instead of this person who's always reacting and trying to get something done. speaker-0: Yes, yes, yes and yes. Who were you who were you before? I only know this Joel. I didn't get to see you before that transcript. speaker-1: No, I was telling somebody, I was telling ⁓ Dr. Sherry Lynch who came to Frederick, Associate Dean from Gonzaga came to Fredericksburg where we are to do leadership training for our nonprofit foundation community leaders. And she met with the team and I said, like, hey, don't believe anything my team says to you because they think all I'm super intense. She goes, I don't think you're super intense. I was like I used to be super intense. I think I still am, just not quite as much. ⁓ we talked about this. I think the best way to to talk about this is ⁓ a couple metaphors. But you and I did the podcast, we talked about these rocks in this ⁓ backpack and ⁓ I picked up a lot of rocks along the way and was carrying a lot of weight. And some of the times that weight really wasn't mine to carry. That's what happens when you when one confuses control with responsibility. I can be responsible for certain processes, systems, and but some control outcomes I can't control. And I've got to surrender those. And I became a lot more comfortable with controlling what I can control, understanding the difference between those two. It's kind of like the serenity, serenity prayer, you know, that they have for alcoholics and ⁓ anybody with addiction or just in general serenity prayer is really good. And in recognizing that, that was step one. What's the difference between responsibility and control and then surrendering, holding things loosely? That was ⁓ number one. ⁓ the number two is ⁓ this theme that runs underneath the Gonzaga program. Of and and I think it comes from Adrian, Dr. Popa, and may come from someplace else. He's just certainly the one that introduced me to be love do. Yeah. to be in my words, to be humble, to listen, ⁓ to be present, ⁓ be open, to be forgiving, yeah, to be helpful, to love. It doesn't have that long list, it can all be summed up in one. phrase, will the good of the other person. It's not romantic love, but to will the good of the other person. Do none of it matters unless that's put into action, but that do, and you know you've been on Mount Adams, that do can be as simply something as simple as, hey, do you want a bite of my extra bagel that I have in my pocket over here? Can I get your water bottle? Can I put your pack on? Do can be sitting with that person and at work that is just so frustrated with a client or whatever it may be and not trying to solve it but just sitting with them. You is going home and giving your child a hug just because that's that that's that in the action. So it's not soft. I don't think anybody would ever describe me as someone who's soft and and ⁓ squishy and milk toasty or whatever. ⁓ they would in fact I've been told I'm abrupt, I'm serious, I'm stern, and but in deep inside of me I really have this great love of people and I really want them to thrive and to succeed. ⁓ And back to your future walk in silence. They help over time that's helped center me so that I'm more reflective of them. ⁓ I got one more third I say I think I'm talking too long. In one of the chapters in the book, I talk about this lake up in northern Wisconsin that we go to. My parents have a cabin up there that ⁓ it's called Leader Lake and it is so pure and calm. And you know, most days when it's pure and calm, you you see the jack pine trees just reflecting back the clouds, the sky. That's the leader. That's the importance of the walk and the importance of the of the of the meditation time because it creates that surface that can relax back well. To the other people. I don't even remember the original question, but boy I had a lot to say. speaker-0: All good. Did you I love all I mean it's all great stuff. Did you when you went through your transformation, if you will? Did you you had this within you, I suspect? Did you just find the words for it? Did you find did something come up out of you? Or did you experience a big change in who you are? Yeah. speaker-1: ⁓ so I'll just cause I don't want to make the assumption that the other listeners have heard of the other podcasts or the same listeners. So and I and and I'm sure everybody has a story like this. And I saw what to share with you I'm not unique. But I think everybody's journey of suffering or whatever it may be is unique to them. Suffering is suffering. So in this in the beginning of like it was around twenty twenty-three, Susan and I are going on vacation and and we're on a drive. Down to the coast and we're trying to talk about our future. And this is what I was trying to make sense of on that walk and journaling. This is the story. Susan she talks with S ⁓ kids are almost out of the house, or last one, like I think it like a sophomore junior at this time. Okay, well, is it always gonna be this heavy? And I was like, What do you mean? She goes, it gets always heavy. It's like there's just stress. There's anxiety. We're always you're always worried about this. We go on vacation. You're thinking about this. You're trying to do this. You do this. And this is these rocks, right? Picking up all these rocks. And I'm just filling in with my backpack. And it's heavy. And what I'm doing is what she's telling me here is, hey, and those rocks, you think you're just carrying them? You're they're like spilling out of your pack and you're kind of like they're falling over on me, they're falling over on the kids. And follow over what work. speaker-0: Great visualization of that. I think you're carrying it, but it's you and then other people speaker-1: No, no, no. And naturally you're like, ⁓ these are so heavy, can you help me carry these? They just like, sure. Right? People at work, you're the leader. Sure. You'll I'll carry it with you. Yeah. And and then ⁓ October of that year is where some changes worked, the economy was getting harder, and you know, and I really care about people here at work and doing well, but it it's hard. And then Susan was diagnosed with breast cancer and For somebody who's in control, like thinks they're in control and has controlled everything in their life, all of a sudden it's like there's a big wake-up call. Like you are not in control. The universe, in this case, for me and my faith journey, the Lord was saying to me, Hey, you're not in control. And there's this work is going on. And ⁓ so this starts like October, November, December, and January. speaker-0: Right. speaker-1: We go to New Orleans, Susan did all this research on where to do her surgery, and she chose to do I don't know the technical term of it, but basically double mastectomy and a reconstruction with her own tissue. So there was a couple surgeries in the spring and the somewhere around that January, February timeframe, I'm washing Susan's hair because she can't lift her arms above her head. You know, she's sitting on a stool and washing her hair. And you think about be, you think about love, and you think about do. Be present. Certainly she's being humble. Here's my husband, and I'm sitting on a stool and she's having to wash my hair, but be present, be humble, be available, not about me, washing her hair. That's the the love. Will the good of the other person. That's easier when she's your spouse. I can't pass these rocks onto her. She's carrying enough the way it is. And then do put it into action and and all of a sudden it's like this is what matters. Yes, all this other stuff does matter, but I am not in control. And all I can do, all I can do is do the most loving, willing the good for the other person in this moment. So this became my leadership mantra. In this moment, what is being asked of me to do the most loving thing for this other person and then do it, and then I've got to let go of the outcome. Now that doesn't mean That I'm not like working my people will tell you I work hard and and I probably have a little bit of an addiction to work to try to cover up some of those anxieties. But that's where the moments really started to change, that metanoia of wait a second, leadership is not about control. Leadership is not about results. Leadership is important about accountability because accountability is loving somebody. But accountability without empathy. Is punitive almost, but empathy without accountability is not really caring and loving somebody else. It's gotta be both. You know? So this is where I started to reconcile these things. And so it was Susan's question, and then this demonstration of of the opportunity to to be love and do with her on this journey was, hey, ⁓ I've gotta show up differently. That was part of it, but my daughter Ella. ⁓ in December so the surgeries are in January. She was in Austin coming home and helping out. She said she called. She's like, hey dad, listen, I don't want to come home anymore. If you're gonna be this way. It wasn't like I was angry. She's like, I feel the stress. I'm gonna come home, I feel it even more. You've got to change. And I just great juni I shouldn't call him a junior leader. He's like 30s, phenomenal. His name's Brock. And Brock sits he's sitting in my office. We meet once a week at this time. I was like, Hey, Brock, what do need from me? And he gets all kind of uncomfortable. At this time he's like 27, by the way. And he gets really uncomfortable. He's shifting his papers and he said, Yeah, ⁓ I want to walk work with you for a long time. And you can't keep doing this if I'm going to do that. And I was like, All right. Yeah. So fortunately I had people that were being present for me, loving me and telling me the truth, loving me, willing the good, and doing and telling me the truth. So that ended up being the transformation for me. That was the metanoia on leadership for me. And then, yeah, you know, hey, I gotta start creating space for me, also creating the space for other people. And that was ultimately, Sarah, the the the first reflection that I wrote. It's not the first chapter of the book, but it's a reflection in the book about responsibility and control and difference between the two. And once I figured that was a part of it, that really changed me. put me on the journey of being a different leader. And now in my leadership coaching, we talked about some of this leadership for the that are in transitions. As I'm working with other leaders, I keep bumping into this topic though of how do I lead well. And show up well from these from these 50-something, you know, forty-five to fifty-five-year-old leaders that have been in for a long time. I'm gonna keep bumping into this adjacent leadership topic ⁓ as well. So I'm curious to s I don't have an answer, but I'm curious to see where this other executive leadership coaching goes on that topic as well. speaker-0: Yeah, that's I I don't know if there's a way to like rate the questions, but it seems to be a very ⁓ common place where you get at that age. A leader gets at that age and wants to lead well. And there's certain things that cause them that reflection back. speaker-1: This is your space, right? Healthy bottom speaker-0: You you exactly like you heard these different messages. You got these different messages. Maybe they were already there. I don't know. Maybe, but it was maybe something about that time period you're going through with your with your leader sitting there across the table from you, sharing something, with your daughter sharing something. Yeah. Enough points kind of on a map to start to draw out a picture for you, ⁓ that you recognize that. And I I've seen a oftentimes A lot of times leaders will hit a certain stage. There's some other transformation happening, maybe or some transition rather happening. Maybe it's empty nesting. Maybe it is a health issue with them or a loved one. Maybe it's you know something else that that causes maybe maybe a parent or something that causes a little re-evaluation of of where things are in life and that reflection that comes inward. So we're listening to. to it and spending time with it and using or developing tools like as you've been doing for you walking coming back reflecting and writing journaling right I've I've made journaling part of future walking like it's yeah it's gotta happen if yeah it's gotta happen you got to come back and write it down don't do it while you're out there it'll ruin your flow right don't put in a podcast just you're just walk to think that silence but when you come back jot those things down and they'll start to make sense but whatever that practice is for a leader that causes ⁓ them to put their own points on a map and start to recognize what what might be different and then how do you stay well and what does that mean for you? What does that mean? I mean from in my in in in my space the way I do it when I'm working with someone as well as the feature walk the idea is thinking forward a few years. And so you you shared how you and Susan were driving driving down to New Orleans or you were down in New Orleans when speaker-1: We went to New Orleans for her ⁓ surgeries. speaker-0: Surgery. You're driving for people. Okay. And that's I mean, that is literally where the future walk came from. Rod and I, this is how many years, 10 years ago now. We were in the chaos of everything. Young kids, two crazy careers in the FBI, like life, like getting through each day. I would literally be like, the end of each day, just like, ⁓ my gosh, I made it through another day. Like it was all about tasks, getting stuff done. And then every part of the day was like that. But we would do an evening walk. Because we had a dog and we had to walk the dog. And normally there was just this like catalog of okay, you know, you kind of download one day, maybe, but you're just really thinking through the next. Okay, you got drop-off, I got pickup, we're gonna do this, I got this, the some reason that one time that conversation shifted. So very similar. Like, where do we want to be when our youngest is Whitney? Where do we want to be when she gets out of high school? She's gonna be a senior now, and where do we want our lives to be like that? And all these things ultimately came. from that. That is why I went to grad school Gonzaga, you know, in my late 40s when I started grad school. That or whatever, mid forties at the time. That is why we moved across the country back to Virginia. That is why we did so and we still do, because we continue to think forward. So back to that question of where to begin, I really recommend a person, if they're starting to, if you're starting to think about, okay, what is next? What is going on? Or you've had something happen in your life. And you're like, wow, maybe there's an area in my life, I call it drift, like that long term drift. Maybe you've drifted away from your values, you've drifted away from something, something important, but it's it's come back in your in your in your field of view, if you will. And you're like, whoa, I need to pay whatever it is health, relationship, spiritual connection, your future, like maybe I do want to retire one day, you know, whatever it is. I recommend walking, moving in nature, giving yourself some time. If another person's part of that future with you then take that person have a conversation you want to set it up so they know they know what they're what they're in for with this but just think out loud time brainstorm time or maybe just for yourself you do it for yourself you got to give it more than for that longer term Thinking, you gotta give it, you know, 30, 50 minutes, an hour or longer, because your brain has to warm up to it, and then come back and just write down everything as you've done. Just write down everything that came up for you. And you do this and maybe that first time you're gonna have amazing clarity. More likely you'll get a couple things, but you want to go back and revisit or have a couple conversations and do it again, and then just come back and and that repetition, the things that are most important will. start to stand up or come up for you. speaker-1: Yeah, I think I think part of the reason the f you we do you're talking about the future walk is it it's time to pause and to look out a little bit further. Where where am I going? Why, not just where, but why am I going there? And and there's a lot of different ways we can go with those two points. what are my one of the things I found really helpful. is what are my values? Yes. What do I and then okay, how does how am I in what ways am I living my values intentionally? In what ways am I not honoring those values? What changes would I like to make so I more fully honor those values? ⁓ I was in a coaching conversation with a ⁓ young professional I say young like early 30s. like a decade in investment banking. And ⁓ he did did extraordinarily well. And for whatever reason, he got let go of his and his last company and he came to me because he wanted help. He lost some of his confidence. So he wanted help re entering back in and applying and things like that. And ⁓ speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: I think what happened in his last role was he just wasn't aligned with the the boss as well, it with the expectation of the organization, 'cause he did so well. So that you know, rationally, everything made sense. Like go get back into investment banking. That was just a blip. That's what he came for. But was we got into the conversation, somehow we got into like his values. And I said, Will have you like really sat down and Define like your top five values. So there's all sorts of values cards exercises. So he did that. And I said, Okay, how does you just it's sensing some resistance to just not like confidence, resistance to get back into ⁓ investment banking. Sit with your values and how does this service serve it? Mm-hmm. He came back and he's like, It serves some of them, but boy, I'm compromising a few of these that I never really even took stock that I'm Doing that. It's like, well, what do you see three, four years down? And then he described what he was trying to get to. Said, All right, take investment banking, what you just described to you, and just go back to the silence. I said, Go home over the next two weeks. I want you to sit with those every day. Which one? What does it feel like when you hold them? And he's like, the investment banking just feels gray. I want to get back into investment banking. He left. I need to pursue a career in this other path over here. And I think the the point being about the future walk, in what you're just talking about, is that when you're grinding away, you're not examining. I think this is a my point where the the silence creates the space. Remember, you said this is one of the three words. Didn't intentionally mean to do this. The walking and the silence create space. To examine what am I doing? Who am I being? Who am I becoming? And that goes back to Gonzaga, the Jesuit education. Being who am I? How am I showing up? How has my team experienced me? How am I showing up in the world? Who am I becoming? What is the world asking of me? What does that mean for me to grow and develop to nurture and let go of? speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Yeah. speaker-1: That is the the idea of, you know, I need to look out. I can't just look at the trees that are right in front of me, which is super hard for those parents that are pe parenting right now, early in your career, just grinding it out. But how do I create that space? Am I living that authentic life? speaker-0: Yeah. I think that's where that transcendent piece comes in, right? But ⁓ what is the world asking of me? As you I think you've said it and you just shared a great story about it. The presenting issue is really, really what's going on. The thing like with him, it was not really, but it took that intentional creation of space. Space with silence, space with an act with something, or just a space sitting, you know, walking, sitting, but silence. Time. I think time is the space. Me personally, time's the space I want to fill all the time, right? Like time and I I feel like ⁓ I gotta like I have a I my my personal mantra is embrace space. Like literally, and I think I shared that on your podcast because that is something I need to continually remind myself about. But having having the confidence to sit sit literally or or figuratively to to hold that discomfort of not knowing and not being able to influence it, maybe listening though. And I I I think you you just said this, ⁓ but I love this idea too. Rather than what's in it for me, what is life asking of me? Right. That's a huge transcendent challenge. speaker-1: Right. Right. And that ⁓ comes back to Mount Adams, Victor From and Search for Meaning, you know, where it you know, we search for meaning. But I I think even Arthur Brooks, who wrote just recently wrote a book on meaning. I I can't remember what its title, but I did read it. But he's like, meaning will find you, you know. I mean you have to be aware, pay attention, up find you, but if you're not paying attention and aware, you won't see it. But it's gonna avail itself to you right in that ⁓ in that moment. ⁓ right right there in the the in the people that you see and experience each day. And I have a you know, we've haven't talked too much about Cameron Brooks, ⁓ but but but ⁓ but we help for the listeners, I mean we help military officers, junior officers transition out into business careers and I'd rather talk to forty people a week. speaker-0: ⁓ Wow. speaker-1: in ⁓ what I've come to recognize is those every one of those is in front of in in a conversation with me that day for a reason, for a purpose, and something's being asked of me. ⁓ it's could get in there and transact. Or I can get in there and be in the moment, do the most loving thing that I can and then let it you know, let the outcome take care of itself. And that's what I've tried to do. I think some people probably argue they may have experienced something different and human. yeah. But I it it's been a real gift. Back to that meaning, it's been a real gift to have a career here at Cameron Brooks because speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: I don't have to search very far. The meaning will come find me. I just have to come with that different shift, that mindset. But if you come with the mindset of I'm a leader, I have to deliver this number, I have to deliver this result, I have to deliver and you do have to deliver results. I don't want anybody ever say this is soft leadership. No, you have to. But what's the method that you're getting there along the way? Because you can be like that speedboat going down the middle of the lake and you're just tossing people up on the wake, up on the shores. Yeah. speaker-0: Right. speaker-1: Or you're that speedboat gun down the middle and you're lifting people up. Which one are you gonna be? I'm gonna and so I I don't think that I was as bad as tossing people on the shores, but clearly people were feeling some sort of heaviness and ⁓ along the way ⁓ of that and paying attention, being being aware of how I'm showing up. The signs, frankly, Sarah, were probably there before. speaker-0: ⁓ Yeah. speaker-1: For whatever reason I wasn't paying attention to it. And eventually Susan was wise enough to look out further and say, Hey, where are we going? What's this gonna look like? That's sort of what our question was asking. Is it all is it always gonna be this heavy? Hey, let's look out to the future. And I wanna know, because I need to prepare for it probably. I wanna know how much longer I need to endure this with you. ⁓ that's probably what she was saying. And ⁓ Yeah, wake up call. speaker-0: Wake up calling you just celebrated your thirtieth anniversary. So there is there is a pathway forward. We but creating it, right? And so sometimes maybe maybe finding meaning, sometimes creating meaning. speaker-1: Yeah. Sometimes just being aware and I think it'll find you. I think it'll be right in front of you. I I don't want to give too much of a way to talk about every chapter in the book, but one of the things I did talk about comes back to this meeting. There's this ⁓ Saint Andre St Andrews Abbey, which is a part of the Gonzaga experience. Saint Andrew's Abbey in Valeramo, California. I never got to go to the Abbey as a part of the academic curriculum. I went as a on a retreat, which was amazing back in February. And I met this brother, Brother Columba. And I just and he's he's an artist and he's self-trained. You think a monk in a monastery is self-trained. How does he train stuff? They watch YouTube, believe it or not. He watches YouTube. He is so good. But anyway, no, he was saying, ⁓ he left something with me. He said, Come and see. You know, whether you're spiritual, ⁓ religious, spiritual, just you know, or just the universe, whatever it may be. I think it's a great. way you think like come and see, wake up in the morning, come and see what the day has in store for you. Come and see how this day is gonna s gonna bless you. Come and see what this day is gonna ask of you. And that's it. And and back to this like the walk, being present, you know, the d it's gonna be right in front of us if we pay attention, that meaning, that opportunity. And then if I pull it all the way back through to the to the beginning The be, the love, the do. Be present. Be humble. Love. Will the good of the other person. Do the most loving thing that you can. It's probably gonna be imperfect. It's not what we're asking. Not it's not what's being asked of us because we're human. And then we gotta for me, it's like I gotta let go of the outcome. Now that doesn't mean okay, I'm done. I'm gonna go home and la la, whatever happens, I'm gonna be taken care of. I don't believe that. But I just believe now there's just I don't have control of speaker-0: Yeah. And finding your peace in that. De love do. I would love to keep on talking about this. speaker-1: That's not mine, I just wanna be very clear. That's Adrian's, that's Doctor Pope. No. speaker-0: Dr. Popa's, he's he's brilliant. He was ⁓ he's the dean of the School of Leadership Studies now again Sega, and he's he was my advisor and a dear mentor and friend as well. So that's great. Be love do. ⁓ but I also love this, and I think it's a really great way to kind of finish up this conversation today is come and see. Just that openness, that just openness to what the day, the life, the world has for you come and see what it asks of you that really important part what is the world asking of me how can I serve in it come and see what the day how the day can bless you so thank you speaker-1: So much. Yeah, just ⁓ one I didn't want to take away from your wrap up there. But listeners that we all have something so unique and wonderful to give, but only we can give. So when it says come and see, recognize you're the only one in the world that has that, whatever it is to give, and though it's asking something of you. speaker-0: You are. Wow. ⁓ my gosh, Joel. Thank you. Thank you so much. ⁓ just all of this. This is all of this has been a true gift, a gift of ⁓ insights and wisdom and and ideas and you're just sharing so openly and and and that's really what I want to be able to do with this podcast is help other leaders find themselves in these stories and find these ways like I'm not alone. Right. I'm not alone with these struggles. I'm not alone with my spouse saying, Hey, what where are we going with this? I'm not alone with these these parenting struggles, or or someone shares something with me that lands very differently than I ⁓ I thought I was being. And what what do I do with this? I'm not alone in in any of this. ⁓ there's other people out there who've experienced this, and there's a way forward, right? That way's gonna be different because as you said, everyone's got their own gifts, everyone's got their uniquenesses. Come and see what it can bring to the world. That that journey of learning and growth is one of trial and learn ⁓ with reflection is a critical piece. And I mean, look what your reflections have led, right? To this really tangible thing. I'm just thrilled to hear about your book and I cannot wait to read it. ⁓ But reflection, even if on any given day, in any given moment, what what stood out to you? Take a take a minute to write a few things down and soon. Soon enough those things might start making sense. Maybe like you said, maybe you're carrying too many rocks. Maybe your rock your pack is overflowed and your rocks are going into someone else and you didn't even realize it. Maybe your rock, you're so full of your rocks that someone comes to you and they need help. You've got nothing to give them. speaker-1: Yeah, can't we know? speaker-0: So maybe that's your thing for me. Like it was residue. I've just put it all on, pretend it didn't matter. You know, I just like like armor almost. And ⁓ I that was my journey. But your your journey is one of of taught me rocks and and growth and and and now your capacity. I I think it's like it's endless when you do those things that help you be well and and it's grounded as yours is in this idea of service ⁓ and listening. listening for what the world's asking for you, what you know, for and your faith, what the Lord is asking of you, what though the what is needed of you, what you can do. So thank you so much for sharing all that. speaker-1: Thank you, Sarah, for having me on. It's been a pleasure and always fun to connect with you. speaker-0: Yeah, it's always so good. And ⁓ yeah, so for everyone listening, ⁓ my goodness, so much here. Joel Junker.com. You can find him there on LinkedIn. If you are a military officer considering a transition to corporate America, Cameron Brooks has I mean you guys were out when I got out of the army a bunch a bunch of years ago and it is ⁓ it's just a phenomenal resource. ⁓ and so please do check out Cameron Brooks and look into that. ⁓ And if you're finding value in this podcast, please follow so you don't miss any future episodes. And I would truly love if you leave a comment about what resonated most, what you got out of this conversation with Joel. I've got pages of notes, ⁓ but again, it's we're on this journey together and we all lift each other up when we share these things, these struggles, these challenges. And and if you're willing to share what you got out of this, I know it's going to help someone else out there who's who's facing some. Perhaps similar to what you are. So as you head out to the rest of your week, just ask yourself: what is life asking of me right now? And then take that future walk and see what answer comes. And until next time, again, thank you for being here and build the life you're working for.