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Engagement Is Not a Unicorn—It's a Narwhal: Real Strategies for Real Classrooms · C3 Connecting, Coaches, Cognition

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  Music.
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  Welcome back to another episode of C3. I'm Courtney Groskin, and I'm here with...
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  You heard that right. I'm here by myself today. Unfortunately,
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  Violet has decided to step away from C3.
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  All that coaching we did around work-life balance, Violet realized that she
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  needed to spend more time at home with her girls. We wish her the best.
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  Be sure to tune in next month to find out who my new co-host is.
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  Let's get back to our regularly scheduled content. We're so fortunate to have
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  Dr. Heather Lyon join us today.
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  Dr. Heather Lyon has a PhD in educational administration and a master's in reading
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  from the University of Buffalo.
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  She is a consultant, speaker, and author, blogger, and superintendent.
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  Heather's books include Engagement is Not a Unicorn, It's a Narwhal,
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  The Big Book of Engagement Strategies, and 50 Ways to Engage Students with Google Apps.
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  Welcome to C3, Heather. Heather, welcome to C3 Podcast. We are thrilled to have
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  here to be able to engage in this conversation for our listeners. How are you doing today?
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  I'm really excited to be here. I'm doing well. Thank you for having me.
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  We are just excited to be able to share this. I even shared the name of one
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  of your books today with a colleague and they were like, what?
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  No, it makes me want to pick it up.
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  So we're excited to share you with our listeners and we'll dive right in.
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  Will you start by just telling us about your background and how you have gotten
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  to where you are right now.
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  Yeah, I was the kid who wanted to be a writer and went to school to get a degree in English.
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  And I needed to not live with my parents for the rest of my life.
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  So teaching was the backup plan. In truth, I was really lucky because my cooperating
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  teacher, my first one, her passion for teaching was contagious.
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  And so I realized that, oh, wait, I want to be an English teacher.
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  And they get to assign people what they want to read and write about.
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  So I was like, oh, I could totally do this. And then I needed a new backup plan.
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  And so administration became the new backup plan.
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  And honestly, I've spent much more of my career being an administrator,
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  several different titles, and now I'm a superintendent, which is really exciting.
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  But I've been a staff developer, a teacher, coordinator, you name it.
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  I've probably done it in education, 3K through.
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  I also teach education.
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  People working on an additional master's, and I teach curriculum leadership with them.
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  So I've worn many hats, and I actually did become a writer.
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  So that's what brings me to you today.
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  So that came about very quickly because I had been trained in doing classroom
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  observations, and people were talking to me about engagement at the time.
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  And that got my wheels turning. I started talking to people about what my wheels
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  were turning about. And they said, oh, where did you get that?
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  And I said, no, no, no, that's mine. And they said, you should write a book.
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  And when you are somebody who wanted to be an author, that's all you need.
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  Somebody to tell you, you should write a book.
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  So that's what got me here today. Well, we're so glad that you wrote that book
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  so we can have this wonderful conversation with you.
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  Your book, Engagement is Not a Unicorn, It's a Narwhal, reframes the concept
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  of engagement in such a memorable way.
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  What inspired you to choose a narwhal and what does the metaphor mean for educators
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  working to foster true engagement?
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  So for your listeners, not everybody does know what a narwhal is.
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  So a narwhal looks like a dolphin and a unicorn had a baby.
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  It's a mammal swimming around in our oceans right now.
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  And you've probably seen it on a three-year-old's t-shirt or if you've seen the movie Elf.
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  And so the idea is that a narwhal is a real thing.
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  And yet some people don't believe that it's a real thing, just like engagement is a real thing.
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  But if you think of engagement as students standing up and applauding for you
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  at the end of a lesson, then that's a unicorn. That's a mythical thing.
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  And really what had happened was I started writing the book, the manuscript, which,
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  And it's sequential in that it talks about continuum of engagement.
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  And there are four levels.
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  So noncompliant, compliant, interested, and absorbed.
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  So in the book, it's sequentially talking about what does it mean to be noncompliant?
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  What does it mean to be compliant?
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  What does it mean to be interested? What does it mean to be absorbed?
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  And then it goes into not just the what, but the so what and the now what.
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  And I got to the part in the book where I started to think about,
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  well, what does it mean to be absorbed in a classroom?
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  And I kind of hit a wall because I knew what absorption looked like outside of classrooms.
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  But in classrooms, absorption is actually quite rare.
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  And I set
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  the manuscript aside and I was running
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  that summer and so I had time
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  to think and I was thinking about it like well maybe I don't know what I'm talking
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  about maybe absorption doesn't exist inside of schools and I was like no no
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  it's a narwhal it's real it's out there you just have to know where to look and what to look for.
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  And it's not a unicorn, this mythical thing. It's a real thing.
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  And actually, Dave Burgess, who wrote Teach Like a Pirate, I had been in communication
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  with him when I was in the early stages of writing the book.
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  And then I reached out to him when I finished the manuscript.
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  And I was telling him about this concept of the novel because it didn't yet
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  really have a title. And he was like, you got that kit.
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  Like, he goes, I can picture so many people like in an audience wearing like
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  the narwhal horn on their head.
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  So really, he inspired me to make sure that narwhal was in the title.
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  It's such a great catching title. I mean, I you can't I don't think there's
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  another title out there to rival that.
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  Thank you it's such a great hook thank you
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  so much i it's not necessarily
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  the most telling title but the
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  book is pretty descriptive so i can hook people with the title and then i can
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  dive into the deeper things in the book and i really appreciate you laying out
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  the different levels of engagement i think that's something a lot of educators
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  and administrators looking for engagement in a classroom struggle with.
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  It's either there or it's not, it seems like, in an observation.
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  But there's a continuum of levels here of what to look for in students.
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  That was the big aha, I think, is that rather than being like an on-off switch
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  on a wall, it's more like a dimmer switch.
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  And so you can be a little bit engaged or a little bit disengaged or a lot of one or the other.
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  And so that's why that continuum is so important. And I felt like a rock star
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  when I really conceptualized those four levels.
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  But as an educator it's not enough to
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  understand oh yeah okay so sure compliant
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  is better than non-compliant interested is better than
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  compliant absorbed is better than interested but as an educator what do I do
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  in order to help somebody shift from one level of engagement to another level
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  it's so powerful and I I completely agree with the narwhal analogy of being
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  just so clear and I love you bringing it back to that.
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  It is something real, but sometimes it feels unattainable and we have to,
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  you being able to share your wrestling with your efficacy and some of those things as well.
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  I laugh, my daughter has always called it a unicorn hopper.
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  So instead of a narwhal at our house, it's called a unicorn hopper from very
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  old stuffy from long ago.
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  But it just, as soon as I saw that title, I read it to my daughter and she goes,
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  oh my gosh, a unicorn hopper coaching book. This is great, mom.
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  So you're enticing even the next generation of educators possibly.
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  And we want to drill in and share even more of your work and a little deeper understanding.
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  In the big book of engagement strategies, you had collaborated with other educators
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  to offer over 50 strategies.
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  Now, obviously, we don't have time for all of those, but can you highlight one
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  or two of those that have personally surprised you in your terms of impact and
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  why did they impact you in such a way that they did? Yeah.
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  So I just want to point out that the big book of engagement strategies really
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  came as I was writing, Engagement is Not a Unicorn, It's a Narwhal.
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  I had all of these strategies in mind.
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  And I was like, the book is already pretty big.
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  I think I have enough strategies to be the start of another book.
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  And the more I interact with people, the more I hear these great things that
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  they're doing that I want to be able to share with others.
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  So furthermore, the contributors to the big book of engagement strategies are practitioners.
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  And so it's really nice to see practitioners supporting other practitioners.
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  So I just want to say the big book of engagement strategies, my name's on the cover.
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  There are dozens of people who contributed to the book and they deserve real recognition.
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  I want to point out, I'm a big, so,
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  okay, let's back this up just a moment because I talked about the engagement
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  continuum and I alluded to that there are leverage points that would shift somebody
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  from one direction to another.
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  If it's all right, if I could dive into kind of what those levers are.
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  Absolutely. Please. Okay. So you need to envision a four-pane window.
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  So I've never met a two-by-two matrix I don't like.
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  It's a great graphic organizer of thinking.
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  So along the bottom of this window, going horizontally, is somebody's relationship to the task.
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  Do they want to do it or don't they want to do it? And that's really the first
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  question you need to ask somebody in order to determine whether or not they're
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  engaged. So that's a leverage point.
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  Do you want to do it? Don't you want to do it? That's pretty simple.
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  And if somebody wants to do it, they're either going to be interested or they're
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  going to be absorbed. Those are your two options.
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  If they don't want to do it, they're going to be non-compliant or compliant.
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  So how do you shift somebody?
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  Well, that's the vertical axis.
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  And the vertical axis is the relationship to the person assigning the task or
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  the consequence, neutral term, positive or negative, for doing the task.
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  So somebody who is non-compliant in this window frame, their bottom left,
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  And so noncompliant people, they don't want to do the task.
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  They don't care about the consequence, positive or negative, for doing the task.
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  And they don't care about the relationship between themselves and the person assigning the task.
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  So my classic example is I'm not taking out the garbage. I don't want to take
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  out the garbage. I don't like taking out the garbage. I'm not doing it.
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  But if grandma asked me to take out the garbage, I mean, I love grandma.
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  I'm not going to let grandma down. I'll take out the garbage.
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  So I'll shift from non-compliant to compliant because of that relationship.
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  And teachers see that, right?
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  When they're talking to other teachers and they're like, wait,
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  that kid is doing their work for you? You're like, yeah, wait,
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  they're not doing their work for you.
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  It's about the relationship sometimes.
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  Sometimes it's about the negative consequence. I don't want to take out the
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  garbage, but you tell me that you are going to find me money if I don't take
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  out the garbage. I'm doing it.
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  I'm not going to pay you $10 because I don't take out the garbage.
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  And then the last option is I don't want to take out the garbage,
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  but you're going to pay me to take out the garbage. Okay, I will shift from
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  noncompliant to compliant because I'm going to do it for this reward.
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  Now, let's not get it twisted.
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  Somebody who is compliant does not enjoy the task any more than somebody who is noncompliant.
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  What they enjoy is either the relationship, the positive consequence,
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  or the lack of negative consequence that they are receiving because they're doing it.
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  So that is really critical to understanding how all of these different strategies work.
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  Because if you are working with somebody who is noncompliant,
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  it is a victory to get them to be compliant.
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  So what are the things that you could work on if somebody is noncompliant?
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  You can work on your relationship with them.
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  You can work on the negative consequence or you can work on the positive consequence
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  or some combination thereof.
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  And so I personally like to build relationships with people.
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  So one of the strategies that I really like is just, it's in the big book of
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  engagement strategies.
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  I call them caught tickets. And I literally catch people doing good things.
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  It's a really brief handwritten.
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  It used to be handwritten. Now I type it or whatever, but I send people,
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  I say, this week I caught you being good when you did this thing.
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  And it reinforces the behavior that I want to see more of anyway.
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  So it's a win-win. That small investment of time makes that person feel seen
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  and valued for doing things that they were already doing anyway.
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  So I really love that. Another quick strategy, and this one is to go from compliant to interested.
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  I'm a huge fan of this strategy. It's the almost some learning targets where
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  you differentiate the learning target itself so the people who are doing the
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  work understand what's expected of them.
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  So in the learning target, all students do this really basic thing.
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  And this really basic thing is really what would be on a four point scale, most likely a two.
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  So the kids who can't do this all thing, they're really a level one.
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  The kids who can only do this are a level two. Now, most students should be
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  able to do the bump up from that.
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  Those are the level three kids. And then in the learning target itself,
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  almost some students will aim for this highest level.
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  And if you can achieve that highest level, you get the level four,
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  which is above expectation. So I really love it because it's a great way to
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  differentiate and not a heavy lift.
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  And the reason why this is a shift from non-compliant to compliant is because
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  it crosses that threshold into choice and voice, which is the easiest way.
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  People always ask me, you know, what advice do you have? What's the easy takeaway?
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  How do you get people to be engaged? Well, remember, the lowest level of engagement is interested.
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  Interested is top right. Top right means I like the task and I need some relationship
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  or consequence in order to do the task.
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  Because when the bell rings, interested kids hear the bell and leave.
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  Absorbed kids don't hear the bell.
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  You have to, you know, push them out.
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  Absorbed kids are the kids who come back to you the next day and they tell you
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  all about this, you know, hole that they have drilled deeply into this thing
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  that they're learning about.
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  So my point here with this is that Interested is actually the place I encourage
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  folks to target in all classes every day.
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  Absorbed, I've never met anybody who's absorbed in everything.
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  And so absorption is the place you visit, not the place you live.
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  So target interested and, and this is a great way to achieve that. And then lastly,
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  I'll just say the last strategy in, or no, hold on.
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  Yeah, the last strategy in the big book of engagement strategies is room to breathe.
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  And again, this is for people looking for absorption, like this could really get it.
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  But the concept of room to breathe, and it's by Erin Quinn and Tara VanderTorn out of Canada.
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  They talk about it as inhaling and exhaling.
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  So inhales are texts and other things that you would take in and input and exhaling
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  is what the students would produce.
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  And I really love that dynamic relationship in learning because so often kids
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  feel so passive and that passivity causes disengagement.
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  So when you have this inhale, take this in and this exhale, what are you going
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  to produce based off of what you are inhaling?
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  And giving students the choice in what that exhale looks like is just really
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  powerful and dynamic. Highly recommend it.
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  Those are some great tangible ways for classroom teachers to start making this shift.
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  What are some ways instructional coaches can help teachers move students into
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  a higher level of engagement?
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  So quite honestly, this framework is not a school-based framework that I've developed.
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  It is a human-based framework that I've developed. And you do not have to be
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  pre-K through 12 in order to experience non-compliance, compliance,
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  interest, and absorption.
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  I am sure that there are lots of things that, unfortunately,
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  professionals have to do where they're like, I'd rather not.
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  Paperwork, grading, I mean, fill in the blank, right?
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  So I think about coaches and the work that they're doing.
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  And I invite them to use this framework and thinking about the work that they're
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  doing with the adults to help adults garner deeper engagement with what it is they're doing.
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  And again, the easiest way to think about this is through choice and voice.
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  There are certainly states and school districts that are more rigid in terms
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  of what teachers are required to do or assessments they're required to administer.
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  But more often than not, it is a an outcome standard with so many different
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  mechanisms to achieve that standard.
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  And we paint ourselves into a corner of doing things one way.
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  And I was an English teacher once upon a time. And I would assign, you know.
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  120 students the same essay prompt, and then wonder why I was crying as I was
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  creating it because of the monotony of having to read the same thing 120 different ways.
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  And it would have taken me very little to think about the standard of what the
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  expected learning outcome was, devise two,
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  three, four different ways that students could have demonstrated that learning standard outcome,
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  and they would have been more engaged just through the function of their choice,
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  and I would have been more engaged just because I wasn't reading the same thing 120 different times.
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  I do want to say, here's the difference between choice and voice,
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  because we use these terms, right? But do we really know what they mean?
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  So imagine, Courtney, that it is your birthday. Happy birthday, Courtney.
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  And I asked you, where would you like to go for dinner?
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  And just for the ease of this experiment right now, you are going to say, name a fast food place.
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  So Courtney, where are we going to go for your birthday dinner?
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  Taco Bell. Fabulous. Taco Bell it is.
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  So Courtney had voice into
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  where we were going and now I'm going to give her
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  choice when because she at Taco
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  Bell cannot order a Big Mac so she no longer has voice when she gets to the
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  menu she is choosing the options so voice is where do you want to go choice
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  is what are you going to select off of that menu and so the best and easiest way to insert,
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  Voice is actually easier to offer people because you say, here are these three choices.
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  The fourth option is you tell me what you want to do that would still achieve
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  this outcome and let them decide.
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  So that's the difference between choice and voice. And those two pieces are game changers,
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  both for the students, but also the adult who can feel very disengaged doing
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  the same thing repetitively,
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  especially when it is something that the standard or the performance or whatever
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  has low levels of choice for the adult.
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  I appreciate how you illuminate that voice and choice both with students and
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  with educators and how really we're trying to do the same thing and it helps
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  to enhance the relationship when you do that.
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  So it's only going to help with that first piece because in everything in you
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  were speaking, you start with those
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  levers and you always go back to the relationship and the starting there.
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  And that's where we build that solid foundation for good teaching and learning, right?
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  So I appreciate you bringing that to the forefront again. Thank you.
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  So I'm sure we have a lot of teachers hooked. Other than reading the book, where can they start?
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  What's one practical step that they could try tomorrow if they want to make
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  an immediate difference in their classroom?
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  Again, I know I sound like a broken record here, but honestly,
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  first of all, start small. Do one thing.
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  I am, like most teachers, I think we're all perfectionists.
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  I think there's a solid, you know, thread of that woven through educators.
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  I'm a recovering perfectionist.
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  I like to introduce myself that way. Hi, I'm Heather.
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  I was a perfectionist. And what I realized about perfectionism is that it does
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  not give me joy. It gives me anxiety.
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  And quite honestly, I don't like being anxious.
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  And so what actually gives me joy is progress. I love progress.
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  So progress means identifying what the starting, I'm sorry, what the finish
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  line is that you're headed towards, but also how do you know the mile markers
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  along the way in the marathon?
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  Because when you are one mile into a 26.2 mile race, like you have left the
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  starting line. This is good news.
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  But if all you're thinking about is I have 25.2 miles left, that is exceptionally discouraging.
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  So I would say start small find
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  one thing find one assignment this year that you can in the first marking period
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  insert some level of choice in voice and see how it goes that would be a really
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  small bite oh here's my here's my new next analogy I'm full of them.
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  So let's go back it is now Violet's birthday happy birthday Okay.
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  And yeah, let's imagine that I got you your most favorite yummy delicious birthday
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  treat. What would that be, Violet?
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  Harbour Gummy Bears. Really? Yes, that's my favorite treat.
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  Okay. So let's imagine I bought you a one pound bag for your birthday treat.
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  So does that sound enticing to you?
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  Absolutely. Okay. Now, what if I told you you have to eat this entire one-pound bag in one bite?
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  Do you still want these gummy bears? No. No, thank you.
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  And what's important here about that is,
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  People will refuse things that they want if it is not served to them in ways that are manageable.
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  Resistance is generally not to the thing, it's to the how.
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  And so if I told you, you have as long as you want to eat all of these bears.
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  And or what if I told you over the course of this month, we're going to finish
• 25:44
  this bag, we're going to finish it together.
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  You get to decide how much you want and you can share it with other people to
• 25:49
  lighten the load here because eating a pound of gummy bears in a month might
• 25:53
  be a lot. I don't know what your consumption is.
• 25:56
  I eat. I allow myself four at a four-first serving of these gummy bears.
• 26:01
  People make fun of me about my four gummy bears. But yeah.
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  And then they get stale because I don't eat them quickly enough.
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  And then I'm like, listen, it's worth chewing these stale gummy bears.
• 26:11
  So I think that it has negative calories because I'm burning more calories than I am consuming.
• 26:18
  Your gummy bear strategy. I love it. Yeah. I see a future book.
• 26:24
  Right. The gummy bear strategy.
• 26:29
  Oh, my goodness. But I love that analogy and thinking of it that way.
• 26:33
  And in my family, I always said you can't eat an elephant in one bite. So same idea,
• 26:37
  we have to go one step at a time and give ourselves some grace and honor that
• 26:40
  there's always a lot on an educator's plate and any one small shift to elevate
• 26:45
  that practice is a good shift and a good step forward, right? Yes.
• 26:50
  Well, let's shift just lightly here and let's go to our rapid fire question.
• 26:54
  So as in roughly 30 seconds to a minute or so, let us know what is one strategy
• 27:00
  every coach should have in their back pocket, according to you.
• 27:03
  I think some type of goal setting strategy with accountability.
• 27:08
  I'm a big fan of Jim Knight's peers, a goal setting strategy to make it personable or personal.
• 27:16
  But setting a goal is insufficient. You need somebody to help hold you accountable.
• 27:21
  And that's really the value of the coach.
• 27:23
  They get to see you doing the things that you don't get to see.
• 27:26
  And they're your partner in this. So when they're asking you, how's it going?
• 27:31
  They're asking you because they're there to help you achieve the things that you want to achieve.
• 27:37
  Absolutely. And having a thought partner is so powerful. And somehow,
• 27:41
  Jim Knight always finds his way into one question or another.
• 27:45
  So here's another episode. We'll put it on the tally board there,
• 27:48
  Courtney, of how many times we've looped back to Jim.
• 27:51
  But tell us one more here, Ms. Heather, is if you had 60 seconds with a brand
• 27:55
  new teacher, what's one thing that you would tell them?
• 27:59
  I would talk to them about the difference between motivation and engagement.
• 28:04
  We often use these terms synonymously, but they do not mean the same thing.
• 28:10
  Motivation is why we do what we do. Engagement is how we feel about what we're doing.
• 28:15
  So you can be highly motivated to do something that you're disengaged in.
• 28:19
  My classic example of this is paying taxes. So I am yet to meet anybody who
• 28:26
  is engaged in paying taxes.
• 28:28
  They may be engaged in doing taxes, but they're not engaged in paying taxes.
• 28:32
  But most people are highly motivated to do it.
• 28:36
  And when we confuse the difference between motivation and engagement,
• 28:42
  we are working on the wrong leverage point.
• 28:45
  And we're shifting. And that's where grades come in.
• 28:49
  Some other time I will digress into grades because grades and engagement work hand in hand.
• 28:54
  And I feel really strongly about this, but focus less on motivation,
• 29:00
  why somebody is doing what they're doing and focus on how they're feeling,
• 29:04
  which I know I'm long for 60 seconds. So I'll take a pause here.
• 29:10
  You're all good. You're all good. But I will circle back to a conversation that
• 29:15
  we had earlier in terms of engagement and motivation when we were talking about
• 29:22
  the levers that shift somebody from one point to another point,
• 29:27
  if the first question we're asking is,
• 29:31
  Does the person doing the task like what they're doing?
• 29:34
  Are they engaged? That's the first question. You know, do they like it?
• 29:39
  You cannot tell by looking whether or not somebody is compliant or interested.
• 29:46
  You have to talk to somebody.
• 29:49
  And because the person doing it, taking out the garbage because you're paying
• 29:54
  them $10 is different than the person who is doing it because they like a clean
• 29:58
  and tidy environment for themselves.
• 30:01
  They're both taking out the garbage they and
• 30:05
  this goes back to how I got started in this
• 30:08
  in the first place I was being trained
• 30:12
  as an administrator to go into people's classrooms
• 30:15
  and to walk through and I was doing I was being taught to do things like tally
• 30:21
  up the number of kids who are doing what they're told to do so I'm being taught
• 30:26
  this and then at the same time I had a coach who was coaching me about what
• 30:33
  engagement was supposed to look like,
• 30:35
  and she referred to it as brain sweat.
• 30:38
  She said, when you go into a gym in physical education class and kids are supposed
• 30:44
  to be moving, how do you know if they're doing it? Well, you can see it like they're sweating.
• 30:49
  You can see their sweat. So you might be able to smell it, sorry.
• 30:53
  But she said in a classroom that is not performance-based in that same way, how do you know?
• 31:01
  There should be brain sweat going on. The students should be doing the heavy lift.
• 31:06
  Well, I don't know if they're doing that lift. If they're doing the lift,
• 31:10
  like you can see the kids who aren't doing the lift, right?
• 31:13
  But just because you see somebody doing the work doesn't mean that they're engaged.
• 31:17
  It means they're doing it. It means they're at least compliant.
• 31:21
  And by the way, and this is one of the real dangers when it comes to looking
• 31:27
  at students who are doing the work.
• 31:31
  It's that teachers get very comfortable with having students picturely compliant
• 31:41
  and instructionally non-compliant.
• 31:45
  In other words, they're quiet.
• 31:48
  They're not disrupting class. They turned the book open to the page that they're supposed to.
• 31:54
  That's what I need them to do. They're not. And so these are kids who can quietly
• 32:00
  slip through the cracks.
• 32:02
  These are kids who can get.
• 32:05
  I was a I used to be an 11th grade honors English teacher.
• 32:10
  And some of the kids who I had in my 11th grade honors English class were really nice kids.
• 32:15
  They were exceptionally polite and respectful and they did their work.
• 32:20
  But that didn't mean that they were at the level that they needed to be in terms
• 32:25
  of the quality of their work.
• 32:28
  But because they had been behaviorally compliant in kindergarten,
• 32:35
  first, second, third, all the way up to 10th grade, they were put into this honors class.
• 32:41
  And I was expecting then in 11th grade that they would have skill that they didn't have.
• 32:45
  How did that happen? It happened because they were nice kids.
• 32:49
  They were good kids. And that's just as dangerous as a kid who we let sleep
• 32:56
  in the back of class because they're not being disruptive,
• 32:59
  even though they have opted out of the learning expectation and we're doing nothing about it.
• 33:06
  Kids deserve us to care about whether or not they're actually learning.
• 33:11
  Oh, what a beautiful sentiment to end that up and tie it with a bow.
• 33:15
  And we're just so grateful to share your expertise and your wealth of knowledge
• 33:19
  with our listeners. And we love that you had that whole full circle moment of
• 33:22
  trying all things in education and becoming your dream of a writer.
• 33:26
  So we'll be looking for your next book out. And make sure you let us know when
• 33:30
  you have something coming down the pike.
• 33:32
  Thank you. I would encourage you and your listeners to check out my blog.
• 33:37
  I write a weekly blog post during the school year. And so there's much more
• 33:43
  where this came from, and it's all free.
• 33:46
  That is fantastic. Thank you so much. You beat me to the third question of where
• 33:50
  can we learn more from and with you?
• 33:52
  That would be the best place. I do have a couple of contributions that are coming out soon.
• 33:59
  One is connected to engagement and AI.
• 34:03
  So that's a really interesting pathway, too.
• 34:07
  So thank you so much for having me and for the amazing work that you guys are
• 34:12
  putting out into this world.
• 34:13
  We're all better for it. Thank you. Thank you.
• 34:17
  Thank you to Heather for really making engagement strategies visible.
• 34:22
  How might you support teachers with student engagement? Thanks for listening to another episode of.
• 34:26
  Music.