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When Trauma and The Legal System Meet with Mark Astor · The Trauma Therapist

0:00
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma Favers podcast. My name is guiming
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Speaker 1: Person and I interview incredible people who share the story
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Speaker 1: of how trauma has shaped their lives. And a big
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Speaker 1: thank you for sponsoring today's episode goes to my guest
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Speaker 1: and our sponsors. So five four, three, two and one,
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Speaker 1: our folks, welcome back to the podcast. Very excited to
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Speaker 1: have as mic us today, Mark Astor, Mark, welcome.
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Speaker 2: Guy, Thank you for having me on as a guest.
0:32
Speaker 2: Great to meet you, Excited to talk to you.
0:34
Speaker 1: All right, So, Mark is a co founder of Astor
0:37
Speaker 1: Samivic Law, a firm dedicated to helping families in crisis
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Speaker 1: one a loved one is struggling with substance use, mental
0:44
Speaker 1: health issues, or repeated recovery failures. With over thirty years
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Speaker 1: of legal experience, Mark leads a trauma informed practice that
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Speaker 1: combines legal advocacy with clinical collaboration, supporting not only individuals
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Speaker 1: and crisis, but also empowering the families to hear. By
1:00
Speaker 1: working closely with clinicians and treatment centers, he fights for
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Speaker 1: outcomes that respect dignity and prioritize long term healing. All right, Mark,
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Speaker 1: So just a little bit about you, but before we
1:11
Speaker 1: get go and show with the listeners where you're from
1:13
Speaker 1: originally and where you are currently.
1:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, originally from the United Kingdom. Came in I've been
1:20
Speaker 2: here since nineteen eighty seven. The bulk of my time
1:23
Speaker 2: has been in Florida. I mean, I'm a resident of Florida.
1:26
Speaker 2: I'm here in Florida now is with who my family is.
1:28
Speaker 2: But spent a couple of years up in Annabur, Michigan
1:30
Speaker 2: doing an undergrad spent a year in California having fun,
1:36
Speaker 2: spent a year in DC getting a master's degree. I
1:38
Speaker 2: spent a journey for me guy, and you know now
1:42
Speaker 2: I'm back in Florida and this is home and I
1:45
Speaker 2: love it. I'm happy here.
1:47
Speaker 1: Awesome, all right, So let's get into it. How did
1:50
Speaker 1: this start for you? How did your interest in becoming
1:56
Speaker 1: a lawyer? And then we'll get into more specifically mental health.
2:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's been quite the journey for me. So
2:05
Speaker 2: just by way background, I told you grew up in England.
2:07
Speaker 2: I came here in eighty seven, which was right before
2:09
Speaker 2: my twenty first birthday. So I guess your listeners will
2:11
Speaker 2: be able to guess how old I am. But I
2:14
Speaker 2: come from somewhat humble beginnings. My father left school at fourteen,
2:18
Speaker 2: my mother sixteen. My father was an entrepreneur. He built businesses,
2:22
Speaker 2: some worked, some didn't, and he was a big proponent
2:26
Speaker 2: and always sort of mentored me and said, look, it's
2:30
Speaker 2: important to have a profession behind you because I think
2:33
Speaker 2: it'll make in the long run, it'll make life easy
2:35
Speaker 2: for you in terms of being able to make a living.
2:38
Speaker 2: And he, you know, he talked to me about law
2:40
Speaker 2: school and when I when I got towards the end
2:43
Speaker 2: of my college career, I said, well, if I do
2:45
Speaker 2: I'm going to law school now, I'm never going to go.
2:47
Speaker 2: So I ended up going. I did.
2:49
Speaker 1: So you didn't go into college thinking I'm going to
2:52
Speaker 1: be a lawyer.
2:53
Speaker 2: I don't know what I was going to do. Backround,
2:55
Speaker 2: I really didn't know what I honestly, what I was
2:57
Speaker 2: going to do. I really had other than having a time,
3:00
Speaker 2: I didn't really have a passion for much. But I
3:04
Speaker 2: remembered my father's you know, words of wisdom, and now
3:06
Speaker 2: he's gone, I remember them even more, and so I
3:10
Speaker 2: think towards the end of college, I said, okay, well
3:12
Speaker 2: maybe I just need to sit the l sat and
3:14
Speaker 2: see what happens, and I did ended up getting into
3:17
Speaker 2: to law school down here in South Florida, and during
3:22
Speaker 2: between my second and third years of law school, which
3:25
Speaker 2: I didn't really I didn't really care for law school.
3:27
Speaker 2: I can't tell you I was the greatest laws did
3:30
Speaker 2: and I didn't really have a passion for the law.
3:32
Speaker 2: It was more of, Okay, I'm going to get my
3:33
Speaker 2: law degree and we'll see where it takes us. But
3:35
Speaker 2: I got an opportunity between second and third year of
3:37
Speaker 2: law school to intern at the local State Attorney's office
3:41
Speaker 2: here in Palm Beach County, and I knew five minutes
3:43
Speaker 2: into my first trial because they allowed us to try
3:46
Speaker 2: cases that my skill set was best served in the courtroom,
3:53
Speaker 2: and which was good because I hated writing, so but
3:57
Speaker 2: I could really I realized I could try the pantsuff
3:59
Speaker 2: just about any case, and I didn't care who the
4:01
Speaker 2: opposing counsel was. I felt like, yeah, I could beat
4:03
Speaker 2: this guy, well, this girl whoever it was. There wasn't
4:06
Speaker 2: always the case, but I felt that this is where
4:08
Speaker 2: I was supposed to be. And long story short, as
4:10
Speaker 2: they hired me about a month before I grated out
4:12
Speaker 2: of law school, and so in May of nineteen ninety four,
4:17
Speaker 2: I popped out of law school. I spent a month
4:20
Speaker 2: working at the State Attorney's office. I went to I
4:23
Speaker 2: studied for the bar at night. Then I took three
4:25
Speaker 2: weeks off right before the exam started, my rear end off,
4:29
Speaker 2: and then I went right back to work and I
4:31
Speaker 2: ended up I was a prosecutor for five years. And
4:34
Speaker 2: what was interesting is, you know, especially when you get
4:36
Speaker 2: out of law school and you're trying cases, you're full
4:39
Speaker 2: of piston vinegar, right, you want to nail everybody when
4:42
Speaker 2: every case. But what I realized was there was a
4:45
Speaker 2: serious problem with our criminal justice system, especially here in Florida,
4:49
Speaker 2: which was that we were we were seeing a lot
4:52
Speaker 2: of the same faces over and over again, you know,
4:55
Speaker 2: individuals with substance and mental health issues, but we didn't
4:58
Speaker 2: have anywhere to take care of them. And the mandate,
5:01
Speaker 2: even today, as it was back in the mid nineties
5:03
Speaker 2: when I was proscined, was to punish first and rehabilit
5:06
Speaker 2: take second. Well, if you don't have anywhere to send
5:09
Speaker 2: these people, and you don't have resources for the monster
5:11
Speaker 2: in the criminal justice system, it doesn't leave much of
5:14
Speaker 2: an option, right, And I mean either means we're putting
5:16
Speaker 2: on probation or locking them up. That's it. Fortunately that
5:20
Speaker 2: has changed somewhat, but that was on my first exposure.
5:24
Speaker 2: I left after five years. I did defense work, I
5:27
Speaker 2: made a lot more money. I was completely miserable. I
5:30
Speaker 2: got married and divorced in the period of about a year.
5:33
Speaker 2: So I was married at thirty four, I was divorced
5:35
Speaker 2: at thirty five, and that really started starting me on
5:40
Speaker 2: a bit of a journey to find out what my
5:41
Speaker 2: purpose in life was. And like I said, I went
5:44
Speaker 2: to California. I actually moved to California in twenty ten.
5:47
Speaker 2: I was there till about twenty thirteen. I took what
5:50
Speaker 2: money I had left, had a good time out there.
5:53
Speaker 2: I took the bar exam out there twice. I felled
5:56
Speaker 2: it twice. I came back after three years when I
5:59
Speaker 2: was pretty much broke. I studied for the California Bar
6:02
Speaker 2: a third time while I was in Florida, and I
6:04
Speaker 2: fell at a third time. And you know, all my
6:07
Speaker 2: friends are like, well, you know, you're not listening to
6:09
Speaker 2: the universe. You're supposed to be here in Florida. I
6:12
Speaker 2: studied for the Florida Bar three weeks. For three weeks,
6:14
Speaker 2: and pasted it. I studied for almost a year for
6:15
Speaker 2: the California Bar and the third time I got within
6:18
Speaker 2: a percentage point, but still couldn't pass it. And then
6:21
Speaker 2: I met somebody that basically changed the complete course of
6:24
Speaker 2: my life. And this was the beginning of a new
6:27
Speaker 2: journey for me. So there's a company down here in Miami.
6:31
Speaker 2: It's called How to Manage a Small law Firm, and
6:34
Speaker 2: it is operated by guy. It was founded by a guy.
6:36
Speaker 1: His name is R.
6:36
Speaker 2: John Robbins AR John Robbins. The was giving a breakfast
6:42
Speaker 2: morning speech. This was about twelve years ago. He was
6:46
Speaker 2: giving a speech to a bunch of lawyers about being
6:48
Speaker 2: an entrepreneurial lawyer. They how to manage teachers, lawyers, the
6:51
Speaker 2: business side of being a lawyer. And coming from, you know,
6:54
Speaker 2: an entrepreneurial father. When I heard him speak, I found this,
6:58
Speaker 2: I found a very exciting and I basically him for
7:00
Speaker 2: a job and I spent a year working for him,
7:03
Speaker 2: watching him show other lawyers how to build their business.
7:07
Speaker 2: But at the very core Guy of How to Manage
7:11
Speaker 2: is that they are a personal growth company for lawyers,
7:16
Speaker 2: and they believe that financial growth has to be preceded
7:19
Speaker 2: by personal growth, and so I basically spent a year
7:22
Speaker 2: working for a personal growth company whose focus was lawyers.
7:26
Speaker 2: And it took me that year to not only grow up,
7:30
Speaker 2: but to also finally take one hundred percent responsibility for
7:34
Speaker 2: my life, both personally and professionally. And after a year there,
7:39
Speaker 2: I decided I was ready. I wanted to open up
7:41
Speaker 2: my own war firm, and I had close family members
7:44
Speaker 2: and friends who had these issues. And in February of
7:47
Speaker 2: twenty sixteen, I set myself down on the local library.
7:49
Speaker 2: I was flat broke, I had no money, but I
7:52
Speaker 2: had an idea, and I had a mission finally, and
7:54
Speaker 2: a bunch of people that I wanted to help, and
7:56
Speaker 2: I just I got the cheapest business cards I could
7:59
Speaker 2: made from Vista. I drove around to various treatment centers,
8:03
Speaker 2: hand that up my business card and said, I'm here
8:05
Speaker 2: to help, and their responsibles we've never heard of you,
8:08
Speaker 2: and I'm like, you know you haven't, but you will
8:10
Speaker 2: do very soon. And eleven months say and I lost
8:13
Speaker 2: my dad. You know, I was financially not in a
8:16
Speaker 2: good place, so it was a real scramble to find
8:18
Speaker 2: the money to bury him. But I got I was
8:20
Speaker 2: able to finally get a little tiny office, which we
8:23
Speaker 2: actually still have ten years later here in Boca. And
8:27
Speaker 2: the second year I was there, I met my now wife.
8:29
Speaker 2: She's my law partner. We've been partners for many years,
8:32
Speaker 2: but we got married only eighteen months ago. Like I said,
8:34
Speaker 2: it's been a bit of a journey for me. Guys,
8:36
Speaker 2: so I had to take responsibility for that part of
8:38
Speaker 2: my life too. And she really I couldn't do it
8:41
Speaker 2: without her. Is she really runs the business I take
8:45
Speaker 2: care of. I'm the face of the business. I share
8:47
Speaker 2: my passion, I share my mission, and I try to
8:49
Speaker 2: get in front of as many people as I can
8:51
Speaker 2: because there's so many families that are suffering.
8:53
Speaker 1: And let me pause you here for a seconds, So
8:56
Speaker 1: thank you. I really appreciate you hearing that, and and
9:01
Speaker 1: you appreciate your your honesty and candidness. When you met
9:07
Speaker 1: that gentleman who had that company, who was that entrepreneur
9:13
Speaker 1: and you worked for him, you said it was basically
9:17
Speaker 1: a personal growth, Yeah, situation. What was it about that
9:23
Speaker 1: for you that you said you had to finally like
9:26
Speaker 1: own up to what was going on with you? What
9:28
Speaker 1: was that? What did you mean by that?
9:30
Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean I think I think part of The
9:32
Speaker 2: problem was, you know, look I had you know, I'd
9:36
Speaker 2: done defense work, I'd made a lot of money, and
9:38
Speaker 2: I had realized that even though I was making two
9:41
Speaker 2: or three times more than I was, like I'm a lawyer,
9:43
Speaker 2: I was completely miserable and as a result, I wasn't
9:46
Speaker 2: really I wasn't really attracting into my life. I would
9:50
Speaker 2: never have attracted into my life my current wife, she
9:53
Speaker 2: wouldn't have given me the time of day. So I
9:56
Speaker 2: think it I think it was about that. I think
9:58
Speaker 2: it was also understanding, and I share this with my
10:01
Speaker 2: step son. You know, a guy, there's three ways to
10:03
Speaker 2: get money. You either earn it, you steal it, or
10:06
Speaker 2: someone gives it to you. Right. Well, I don't come
10:09
Speaker 2: from a wealthy family. I'm not going to win the lottery,
10:12
Speaker 2: and I don't want to go to jail. So I
10:14
Speaker 2: finally realized the way to get it right was to
10:17
Speaker 2: work really hard, was to find a bunch of people
10:21
Speaker 2: that really needed my skill set, and and to focus
10:25
Speaker 2: my efforts on going out there and helping those people,
10:28
Speaker 2: and by doing that, the universe would reward me financially,
10:32
Speaker 2: as opposed to I'm just going to find a bunch
10:34
Speaker 2: of people and see how much money I can get
10:36
Speaker 2: out of them. Right, I got my I got my
10:39
Speaker 2: I got my mission figured out first, and then I
10:43
Speaker 2: figured out how to monetize it as opposed to just
10:46
Speaker 2: searching for the dollar. And I listen, I'm I like
10:49
Speaker 2: material things too. That this mission of mine has helped
10:51
Speaker 2: me to take care of my mother for the last
10:53
Speaker 2: nine years since my dad passed, So I'm very blessed
10:56
Speaker 2: in that way. But I but I realized that there
10:58
Speaker 2: was you cannot make any excuse uses if you don't
11:00
Speaker 2: have the things in your life that you want, whether
11:03
Speaker 2: it's personal or professional. If you want that nice car
11:06
Speaker 2: or that nice house, or you want to attract someone
11:08
Speaker 2: into your life that's going to really make a difference,
11:13
Speaker 2: then you have to become that person that's going to
11:16
Speaker 2: attract the right person, that's going to be able to
11:18
Speaker 2: help the right clients. And that's when I when I
11:22
Speaker 2: talk about the whole personal growthing, I think that's where
11:24
Speaker 2: I'm coming from. And also being you know, comfortable with
11:27
Speaker 2: the fact that you're going to have some failures along
11:29
Speaker 2: the way, and that's okay as long as you learn
11:31
Speaker 2: from them and you and you own them and don't
11:33
Speaker 2: blame somebody else when the phone doesn't ring, or the
11:36
Speaker 2: wrong clients are calling you, or you know, well, I've
11:39
Speaker 2: attracted the wrong person into my life. It's on me.
11:42
Speaker 2: It's on me.
11:46
Speaker 1: The whole topic of the quote unquote the system, the
11:51
Speaker 1: legal system, mental health, recidivism. Sounds like a mess. I
11:58
Speaker 1: think it is, Like, it's sound like a mess. What
12:04
Speaker 1: do you do specifically as as a lawyer works in
12:08
Speaker 1: this Yeah, within this context. Okay.
12:12
Speaker 2: So there's three components to what we do. The first
12:15
Speaker 2: is legal, so they are foll lawyers in the office,
12:18
Speaker 2: and we basically operate under three different statutes here in
12:21
Speaker 2: Florida that allow us, for lack of a better word,
12:25
Speaker 2: to involuntarily commit somebody. Basically, we are we are giving
12:29
Speaker 2: getting families the authority from a judge so that they
12:33
Speaker 2: can place their loved one into a clinically appropriate facility
12:37
Speaker 2: and keep them there long enough. Okay. And that may
12:41
Speaker 2: also include making sure they take their medication. It may
12:45
Speaker 2: be we restrict our ability to travel, who they spend
12:47
Speaker 2: time with, where they live. We want to be Maybe
12:50
Speaker 2: perhaps there is there's property money that we need to
12:53
Speaker 2: be able to control so that it doesn't get wasted.
12:55
Speaker 2: While this person is experiencing recovery. So there's the legal
12:59
Speaker 2: component to it, because we got we have to be
13:02
Speaker 2: able to get control of what is typically by the
13:04
Speaker 2: time they get to us, a completely out of control
13:07
Speaker 2: situation that's been going on for years and years and
13:10
Speaker 2: years and nothing has worked.
13:12
Speaker 1: So that's what do you mean by the time they
13:14
Speaker 1: get to you? Because are you saying by the time
13:16
Speaker 1: they get to you, it's like the last stop.
13:19
Speaker 2: Or or yes, yeah, we're typically the last portal, call
13:22
Speaker 2: my my father, other and amongst other things you used
13:26
Speaker 2: to set him. Listen, you know when people come to you, understand,
13:29
Speaker 2: nobody wants to call a lawyer, and they definitely don't
13:31
Speaker 2: want to give you any money. So if they are
13:34
Speaker 2: coming to you, it's because you know they're desperate, they've
13:36
Speaker 2: reached the end of the rope, and you have to
13:38
Speaker 2: honor that and respect it. And so we know when
13:41
Speaker 2: the time clients come to us, they have tried lots
13:44
Speaker 2: of different things. Their loved ones been in multiple treatment centers,
13:46
Speaker 2: they may even have worked with another law firm, They
13:49
Speaker 2: are not taking their medications. Nothing has seems to have worked,
13:52
Speaker 2: or if it did work, it didn't stay working long
13:55
Speaker 2: enough for what I call the miracle of recovery to
13:58
Speaker 2: not only happen, but to main because obviously we want
14:01
Speaker 2: to get this right the first time. I don't want
14:02
Speaker 2: to keep doing this is it's too stressful for the
14:05
Speaker 2: family and it's too expensive. So we're trying to get
14:07
Speaker 2: it right so that that legal component allows us to
14:10
Speaker 2: basically grab somebody because because this is you've got to
14:13
Speaker 2: think of somebody who has a serious behavior health issue.
14:16
Speaker 2: It's as if their brain has been kidnapped, it really is,
14:20
Speaker 2: and the families looking at them like I don't understand,
14:22
Speaker 2: why can Why do they continue to do these self
14:25
Speaker 2: destructive things? Why are they not able to make the
14:28
Speaker 2: decision to save themselves? Because that's the nature of the disease.
14:31
Speaker 2: They don't think there's anything wrong with them. If they did,
14:34
Speaker 2: of course they would look to save themselves. But they
14:37
Speaker 2: think they're fine. They think that they're looking at you,
14:39
Speaker 2: like the family, like you're the problem. So if they
14:43
Speaker 2: can't make the decision to save themselves, who can Well,
14:46
Speaker 2: either the family can step in, which is where we
14:48
Speaker 2: come along, or the state of Florida will gladly do
14:51
Speaker 2: it for you, either through the criminal justice system or
14:54
Speaker 2: through the mental health system, and I can tell you
14:57
Speaker 2: that neither of those are good avenues for some want
15:00
Speaker 2: to experience recovery. Because the state of Florida, like many states,
15:03
Speaker 2: is terrible at taking care of people with behavioral health issues.
15:07
Speaker 2: And so we want the family to have that authority
15:09
Speaker 2: because they're the ones that know this person best. This
15:12
Speaker 2: is their loved one, and they care the most, and
15:15
Speaker 2: they're going to make the decisions that are in the
15:17
Speaker 2: person's best interest. But we have to give them that
15:20
Speaker 2: authority first, otherwise nothing else works. So the first component
15:25
Speaker 2: of the three is the legal component.
15:28
Speaker 1: Okay, what is it? What are the other components?
15:32
Speaker 2: So the second component is the clinical So obviously we
15:36
Speaker 2: have to not only put the person into some type
15:40
Speaker 2: of treatment for a period of time, but it has
15:42
Speaker 2: to be the one that's clinically appropriate. Now, when I
15:45
Speaker 2: first started doing this work in February of sixteen, Guy,
15:48
Speaker 2: the bulk of the cases that I was getting were
15:52
Speaker 2: alcohol and recreational drug related, which was fine. They weren't
15:56
Speaker 2: what I would call clinically challenging cases, and the options
15:59
Speaker 2: for treatment were you know, there was lots of them.
16:02
Speaker 2: Then COVID came along, and then we we legalize marijuana
16:05
Speaker 2: here in Florida, albeit for medicinal purposes, and that really
16:08
Speaker 2: changed the game significantly. We and our cases all shifted
16:13
Speaker 2: really to primary mental illness. And you throw a little
16:16
Speaker 2: legalized marijuana in the mix, and you've got a really challenging,
16:19
Speaker 2: combustible situation where the person is very erratic and their
16:24
Speaker 2: actions are unpredictable. And so we said, okay, look, these
16:28
Speaker 2: other treatment sets that we've been working with is this
16:29
Speaker 2: is not going to do the job. And so we
16:31
Speaker 2: really had to boil it down. So, you know, there's
16:33
Speaker 2: maybe a handful if that facilities that we work with
16:36
Speaker 2: here in Florida. But the other thing that was important
16:39
Speaker 2: to me was was to have a couple of clinicians
16:41
Speaker 2: that I that are sort of part of our team.
16:44
Speaker 2: They're an ali catte option for clients. They don't have
16:46
Speaker 2: to work with them, but they are options. These are
16:49
Speaker 2: my go to. There's two collisions, and these are the
16:51
Speaker 2: folks that I trust the most, that I would send
16:53
Speaker 2: my own family members to and frankly have on occasion
16:57
Speaker 2: and I say to the family, look here's another option.
17:00
Speaker 2: I have this amazing clinician, him and his team can
17:02
Speaker 2: come in here, we can. They'll help us to find
17:04
Speaker 2: the right place, they'll help us to get insurance approved,
17:06
Speaker 2: and they will be there as for the for the
17:09
Speaker 2: emotional support that you're going to need, because recovery is
17:13
Speaker 2: not it's I tell people, it's like the stock market.
17:16
Speaker 2: It goes up and down, but it trends upwards. But
17:19
Speaker 2: the ups and downs, at least initially are or dramatic.
17:23
Speaker 2: It's like being on a roller coaster. And we need
17:25
Speaker 2: to be there for you. And so this person with
17:27
Speaker 2: his team, working in conjunction with us, can really help things.
17:31
Speaker 2: So the clinical part is key and critical. And then
17:34
Speaker 2: the third component is what I call law enforcement. So
17:39
Speaker 2: I've got a retired coup and stuff at John's retired
17:42
Speaker 2: federal agent, and he's got a team of investigators. We
17:45
Speaker 2: get a lot, of course from missing people, people on
17:47
Speaker 2: the streets, people that walk out of treatment. And if
17:50
Speaker 2: I can get a judge to give me a court order,
17:52
Speaker 2: and sometimes even without a court order, rather than waiting
17:55
Speaker 2: for law enforcement to do it. And it's not because
17:57
Speaker 2: they don't care, it's just that they don't have the
17:58
Speaker 2: resources to go looking for people, we'll do it for them,
18:01
Speaker 2: and we'll go find them and so that you know,
18:04
Speaker 2: those three things combined together are powerful. But it's not
18:08
Speaker 2: a magic want. I mean, it takes time for all
18:10
Speaker 2: of this to work. And you know, by the time
18:12
Speaker 2: folks get to us, they've already gone through a lot
18:15
Speaker 2: of time, energy, and money, and they're tired and sometimes broke.
18:19
Speaker 1: Well and correct me if I'm wrong here, But I
18:22
Speaker 1: would imagine I mean we're talking. If someone is under
18:28
Speaker 1: the age of what eighteen, certainly they can their parents
18:33
Speaker 1: can put them into a phasically correct. But if they're
18:35
Speaker 1: over that age, you got it, then we're things get
18:39
Speaker 1: a little bit more complicated. And I'm curious if you
18:44
Speaker 1: can give me a specific example of what with the
18:47
Speaker 1: understanding that everything is different, but how you might work
18:51
Speaker 1: if someone says twenty five and things aren't working for them,
18:56
Speaker 1: they've been in recovery multiple times, they don't want to
19:00
Speaker 1: go back. I'm fine, how does that work? Yeah?
19:05
Speaker 2: So you know, I told you this, there's three statues
19:08
Speaker 2: that we operate under. And depending on the case and
19:10
Speaker 2: what kind of relief we need to get, that's going
19:13
Speaker 2: to depend on what kind of case or cases that
19:16
Speaker 2: we're going to file. But you know, you make a
19:18
Speaker 2: good point here, guy, most of the of the of
19:20
Speaker 2: the families that we're working with, their loved one is
19:23
Speaker 2: probably between twenty five and forty five, occasionally a little older,
19:27
Speaker 2: but that's our sort of window. And as you correctly
19:29
Speaker 2: pointed out, whether they're over eighteen and so, well, they
19:33
Speaker 2: get to make their own decisions about their medical care
19:36
Speaker 2: and their mental health services, right, I mean, they're an adult.
19:39
Speaker 2: Problem is that when someone's dealing with the behavioral health issue,
19:44
Speaker 2: they may not be capable of making what we would
19:46
Speaker 2: consider objectively rational decisions about their health care. You know.
19:51
Speaker 2: I'll give you an example we had. I've represented a family.
19:55
Speaker 2: Both of the parents were lawyers. This young man ha
20:00
Speaker 2: all of the benefits of coming from a family, you know,
20:03
Speaker 2: that loved him and cared from a hat and had
20:05
Speaker 2: all the resources that one would ever need to take
20:07
Speaker 2: care of somebody. But this individual he was I think
20:10
Speaker 2: he's twenty seven to twenty eight and has been using
20:15
Speaker 2: marijuana for the last five or five or six years.
20:19
Speaker 2: And when it comes to the marijuana issue, if there's
20:22
Speaker 2: any predisposition for mental health or mental health issues, I
20:28
Speaker 2: should say, it's like pouring gasoline on a fire. And
20:31
Speaker 2: so he just he as time went on, he just
20:33
Speaker 2: became more and more psychotic. I mean he was he
20:37
Speaker 2: was not speaking to the family, he wasn't showing up
20:40
Speaker 2: for work, he wasn't physically taking care of himself, he
20:42
Speaker 2: wasn't eating, and he was starting to the state, because
20:46
Speaker 2: he was in a different state, was starting to step
20:48
Speaker 2: in and involuntarily commit him into psychiatric hospitals. And the
20:51
Speaker 2: parents were really afraid that at some point the state
20:54
Speaker 2: would take him and wouldn't give him back. And they
20:56
Speaker 2: called us and we said, look, let's get him down
20:58
Speaker 2: to Florida, because otherwise, you know, the state will take
21:02
Speaker 2: him and you won't like you won't like what you
21:04
Speaker 2: see if you get him back. And so you know,
21:06
Speaker 2: we're dealing with with, you know, really in that case,
21:09
Speaker 2: marijuana and do psychosis, and this is a kid who's really,
21:12
Speaker 2: really smart, but making it just as almost as if
21:16
Speaker 2: he's disconnected from the matrix as it were. So we
21:19
Speaker 2: got him down here and we actually filed a couple
21:21
Speaker 2: of different causes of action that gave the family the
21:24
Speaker 2: ability to control not just where he was residing, but
21:26
Speaker 2: his treatment. We also took control of some of his
21:28
Speaker 2: finances because this kid was a real was a real
21:31
Speaker 2: sort of stock market wisdom was more than capable of
21:33
Speaker 2: making enough money where he could afford to run off
21:36
Speaker 2: and not come back. So we needed to control all
21:38
Speaker 2: that stuff. And so, you know, there's just one example.
21:41
Speaker 2: But you know, we have another case that recently walked
21:46
Speaker 2: in where we have a young lady, early thirties, who
21:50
Speaker 2: is convinced that her body is infected with some type
21:53
Speaker 2: of disease. And just about every doctor that the family
22:00
Speaker 2: has taken into us that this is a mental health issue.
22:02
Speaker 2: There's nothing physically wrong with her, and you know, the
22:05
Speaker 2: family is doing everything they can to appease her, and
22:08
Speaker 2: they finally course I said, look, you have to get
22:10
Speaker 2: her into treatment. This is all the professionals are telling you.
22:12
Speaker 2: There's a mental health issue here. This is not medical.
22:15
Speaker 2: You know, even though she's convinced there's something that's crawling
22:18
Speaker 2: around inside of her, it's it's up here that's the problem.
22:21
Speaker 2: And so we're gonna, well, in that case, we're going
22:23
Speaker 2: to fall for gardenship because she's over eighteen, of course,
22:25
Speaker 2: and so we've got to get control of her. And
22:28
Speaker 2: and we're going to find and I brought one of
22:29
Speaker 2: my coinians into work with the family and we're going
22:31
Speaker 2: to find a place for her. But she's to the
22:33
Speaker 2: point where she's not even feeding herself, and so I
22:36
Speaker 2: mean she's she's medically compromised. I think she lost another
22:39
Speaker 2: ninety days and then they'll be making you know, they'll
22:41
Speaker 2: be making funeral arrangements for her. And I hate to
22:43
Speaker 2: be blunt, but that's what we deal with. They will
22:45
Speaker 2: if if we don't get her into treatment soon.
22:48
Speaker 1: So it sounds like the families who are fortunate enough
22:55
Speaker 1: to recognize that there are options such as yourself, will
23:00
Speaker 1: take advantage of your services. But it also sounds like
23:04
Speaker 1: they're I mean, if we were to remove you from
23:08
Speaker 1: this equation, it sounds like a lot of people just
23:11
Speaker 1: fall off the deep end.
23:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, they do. You know, here in Florida, the state
23:18
Speaker 2: of Florida involuntarily commits to some degree, over one hundred
23:22
Speaker 2: thousand people every year. That means there's one hundred thousand
23:24
Speaker 2: people who here in Florida who are alleged to have
23:27
Speaker 2: some type of mental health crisis. And I don't know
23:31
Speaker 2: the exact numbers, but a lot of the time those
23:32
Speaker 2: people have been committed more than once, you know, and twice,
23:36
Speaker 2: and look, FYI it happened to my family member too,
23:39
Speaker 2: just a couple of days after I lost my dad,
23:40
Speaker 2: So I know what that feels like on a very
23:42
Speaker 2: personal level because I was there when it all went down.
23:45
Speaker 2: But the state will step in if they have to,
23:47
Speaker 2: and at some point they'll send you off to a
23:50
Speaker 2: state mental hospital. And I've had those calls. You cannot
23:54
Speaker 2: believe how terribly the state treats people in one of
23:57
Speaker 2: these hospitals. Because here's the deal. Once you in, nobody's
24:01
Speaker 2: nobody's watching, there's no oversight, nobody even knows you're there.
24:03
Speaker 2: I mean, you see, you get one hearing in front
24:05
Speaker 2: of a judge, that's it. Next case, goodbye, you know,
24:08
Speaker 2: see you in six months. So that's part of the problem.
24:12
Speaker 2: But this is it's not unique to Florida. I mean,
24:14
Speaker 2: the state is a state version of our Baker Act
24:17
Speaker 2: in just about every state. So I mean even in
24:19
Speaker 2: Massachusetts were reboard, we get calls there where people are
24:22
Speaker 2: being involuntarily committed. They have Section twelve up there, but
24:25
Speaker 2: it's the same type of thing. State steps in wrap
24:27
Speaker 2: the person locks them up, and you just I mean,
24:31
Speaker 2: you just don't want that happening, but it But the
24:33
Speaker 2: state will step in if they have to.
24:36
Speaker 1: What is this Baker Act?
24:37
Speaker 2: So, the Baker Act is a statute here in Florida
24:41
Speaker 2: that allows the state to basically take custody of somebody
24:45
Speaker 2: when there is the when there's a mental health crisis
24:48
Speaker 2: and there's an immediate need for services, i e. Somebody
24:51
Speaker 2: may be suicidal, they're threatening suicide, and so you know,
24:55
Speaker 2: families can pick up the phone call nine one one,
24:57
Speaker 2: and law enforcement will show up, sometimes with power medics,
25:00
Speaker 2: and then take the person to the hospital they need
25:03
Speaker 2: medical services, and then onto some type of behavioral health unit.
25:07
Speaker 2: The problem, guy, though, is that once you're Baker acted,
25:10
Speaker 2: nobody knows you're there. And I file at about one
25:12
Speaker 2: hundred cases every year, if not more, to get people
25:14
Speaker 2: out of Florida's mental health system that either shouldn't be
25:17
Speaker 2: there or are not getting the care that they need
25:19
Speaker 2: to be getting.
25:21
Speaker 1: So are you saying that if someone were to simply
25:26
Speaker 1: call nine one one, they're going to completely miss services
25:31
Speaker 1: that you might offer, like an oversight?
25:34
Speaker 2: So I mean, look that the whole the whole idea
25:36
Speaker 2: of the Baker Act is so that I mean, God forbid,
25:39
Speaker 2: somebody is actually suicidal. I we want to be able
25:42
Speaker 2: to pick up the phone, because that's the fastest way
25:44
Speaker 2: to get them into some some type of facility where
25:49
Speaker 2: they can where there are services, need for services can
25:51
Speaker 2: be addressed. I mean, we file something with the court,
25:53
Speaker 2: which means we got to drop the petition. It gets
25:55
Speaker 2: fired with the clerk, the clerk accepts that, he goes
25:57
Speaker 2: to a judge. The judge reviews it, and you know,
25:59
Speaker 2: it can take several lates to get us into court
26:01
Speaker 2: right even on an emergency basis. Well, if someone is suicidal,
26:05
Speaker 2: actively trying to harm themselves, or has it you know,
26:08
Speaker 2: has swallowed a bottle of pills, I mean, we don't
26:11
Speaker 2: have time for any of that stuff. They need help
26:12
Speaker 2: right now, not just you know, not just mental health help,
26:15
Speaker 2: but perhaps medical services to deal with an overdose, be it,
26:18
Speaker 2: you know, whether it's intentional or unintentional. So we want
26:21
Speaker 2: to be able to pick up the phone or call
26:23
Speaker 2: nine one one. The problem is that once they're there,
26:25
Speaker 2: there's nobody up here watching and making sure that the
26:28
Speaker 2: hospital does it right. And because they are a licensed
26:31
Speaker 2: agent of the state's mental health system and may may
26:34
Speaker 2: actually be private in nature and for profit, you can't
26:37
Speaker 2: sue them. They enjoy the sovereign immunity that state actors do.
26:41
Speaker 2: And so it's a problem. It's a real problem. I mean,
26:45
Speaker 2: you know, we just amended our Baker Ak statute last
26:48
Speaker 2: year and the local CBS network came over an interviewed,
26:51
Speaker 2: and they said, what do you think? And I said,
26:52
Speaker 2: they missed the poor I said, if the governor called me,
26:55
Speaker 2: had I told them in five minutes had to fix
26:57
Speaker 2: this thing. But nobody called. So it's still broken.
27:00
Speaker 1: Is there an ethical dance here? Do ethics come into
27:05
Speaker 1: play with with what you're doing? I can imagine people
27:11
Speaker 1: looking at this saying, oh my god, you know this.
27:15
Speaker 1: How can you involuntarily, you know, take someone and commit them,
27:21
Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera. And yet I'm thinking, well, what's
27:25
Speaker 1: the alternative?
27:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I and I and I. That's a really
27:29
Speaker 2: you know, I get that question a lot, guy, So
27:31
Speaker 2: I appreciate you asking it. I mean I think it
27:33
Speaker 2: really it's really about perspective. Am I involuntarily committing them?
27:38
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess you could look at it that way.
27:40
Speaker 2: I choose to look at it a different way. I say,
27:42
Speaker 2: it's not just that I'm involuntarily committing them. So I'm
27:46
Speaker 2: empowering the families to make decisions to get control of
27:52
Speaker 2: an out of control situation and make a decision to
27:55
Speaker 2: save their loved one, because otherwise this person, if they
27:58
Speaker 2: don't end up dead, will up in some way, you know,
28:01
Speaker 2: part of it, you know, within the state systems. I'm giving
28:04
Speaker 2: families the ability to save their loved one because they
28:08
Speaker 2: need the court's assistance, because otherwise there's no other way
28:12
Speaker 2: to do this. There really isn't. And so I mean,
28:15
Speaker 2: you know, people, you can call it what you want. Well,
28:17
Speaker 2: you know, I'm involuntarily committing them. Okay, better me than
28:20
Speaker 2: the state.
28:22
Speaker 1: Right right. I could imagine if it was my family member,
28:26
Speaker 1: I would, as I said, as I'm sitting here, I
28:30
Speaker 1: would want to have that option.
28:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I certainly understand why families are uncomfortable. I mean,
28:35
Speaker 2: think about it. You've got adult child on one side
28:37
Speaker 2: of the courtroom and you've got mahmadad on the other
28:40
Speaker 2: in a potentially you know, adversarial relationship. And I say, listen,
28:45
Speaker 2: I know this looks like your loved one, your child,
28:48
Speaker 2: and it sounds like them, they walk like them, but
28:50
Speaker 2: right now it's not them. Their brain's been kidnapped. There's
28:55
Speaker 2: somewhere else right now, we got to get rid of
28:57
Speaker 2: this disease that's running the show. Then they'll come back.
29:00
Speaker 2: But the way to do that is to get them
29:01
Speaker 2: into treatment. And I know that that's a very uncomfortable
29:04
Speaker 2: feeling for a family. So you know, look, I mean
29:08
Speaker 2: part of our core values of the firm is understanding
29:12
Speaker 2: who we're really dealing with, right because but the time
29:16
Speaker 2: families get to us, they are emotional, they're exhausted, and
29:20
Speaker 2: they vacillate on whether or they want to do this.
29:23
Speaker 2: They make us start, then they stop, then they start,
29:26
Speaker 2: then they stop. Oh someone's in recovery for thirty days.
29:28
Speaker 2: You don't need the guardianship. Well, you know, now we're
29:31
Speaker 2: we have eleven months more to go because it's really
29:34
Speaker 2: a year long journey, and so it's very important and
29:38
Speaker 2: it's been part of of well my wife and I
29:41
Speaker 2: have really worked hard on is is making sure everybody
29:44
Speaker 2: in the team understands what the core values and the
29:46
Speaker 2: mission of the firm is, which is to save this family.
29:49
Speaker 2: And as frustrating as sometimes our clients can be, and
29:52
Speaker 2: as frustrating as dealing with the courts and the judges
29:55
Speaker 2: and the clerks, can be. At the end of the day,
29:58
Speaker 2: the mission here is to save these people, and we
30:00
Speaker 2: can't lose sight of that. As as easy it is
30:04
Speaker 2: as it is is to get caught in the weeds.
30:06
Speaker 2: And so it sounds intense and it is, but it's
30:11
Speaker 2: so rewarding. Guy, I see is this? See? Saving other
30:16
Speaker 2: people saved me. Saved my wife too, because when I
30:20
Speaker 2: met her she was reasonably newly divorced and she didn't
30:22
Speaker 2: have to Nichols either. It saved both of us. See,
30:26
Speaker 2: I get to take care of my mom now, she
30:28
Speaker 2: gets to take care of her two children because they're
30:30
Speaker 2: you know, her ex husband's anyway, you get the idea, right.
30:33
Speaker 2: But I also by helping more people, we grew a team.
30:36
Speaker 2: Those people now get to feed their families and live
30:39
Speaker 2: their best lives. And so it's it's very circular here,
30:42
Speaker 2: but it all starts with the mission.
30:45
Speaker 1: Wow, all right, So how do people learn more about
30:48
Speaker 1: you and you're mission and.
30:50
Speaker 2: What you're doing so they can find us out on
30:53
Speaker 2: find us on the line. The website is Mental Health
30:57
Speaker 2: Addiction Law Firm dot com. It's Mental Health Addiction Law
31:02
Speaker 2: Firm dot com. They can call us. The main number
31:04
Speaker 2: of the office is five' six one four one nine
31:09
Speaker 2: six zero nine five or just google. ME i mean
31:13
Speaker 2: one of the things THAT i do on a daily
31:15
Speaker 2: basis IS i put out video. Content So i'm all
31:18
Speaker 2: over social. Media there any, Information all of the information
31:21
Speaker 2: you could ever need about our services and whether or
31:23
Speaker 2: you would even want to talk to us is online
31:26
Speaker 2: and it's there for. Free and it's it's been really
31:30
Speaker 2: important to me to make sure that people get the
31:32
Speaker 2: right information Because google's full of full of the wrong
31:34
Speaker 2: information and comment through about people who have no idea
31:37
Speaker 2: what they're talking. About SO i give them the real
31:40
Speaker 2: stuff based on speaking to thousands of families and all
31:43
Speaker 2: the work that we've done over the, years AND i
31:45
Speaker 2: give it away four. Free and if there's AND i tell,
31:47
Speaker 2: people if you want me to make a, video answer a,
31:49
Speaker 2: question shoot, me you, know shoot me a message to the.
31:52
Speaker 2: Website i'll make you a. Video i'll put it out
31:53
Speaker 2: there and it'll help you and everybody else who has
31:55
Speaker 2: the same.
31:56
Speaker 1: Issue, awesome all, Right we'll have that linked up at
31:59
Speaker 1: our showing page at The Trauma Therapist podcast dot. Com once,
32:02
Speaker 1: again That's Mental Health Addiction Law firm dot. Com you
32:05
Speaker 1: also have testimonials on your website that are very interesting as. Well,
32:10
Speaker 1: mark thank you, man. Welcome really appreciate you and again
32:14
Speaker 1: appreciate you coming on here and sharing your story. Too
32:17
Speaker 1: it means a.
32:17
Speaker 2: Lot, well thank you for having me guy and allow
32:19
Speaker 2: me to share my passion with.
32:20
Speaker 1: You i'm. Grateful all, right we'll be in. Touch