Latest / Books4Guys / Still Human | Bonnie Davis on AI, Leadership, and the Future of Work

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Still Human | Bonnie Davis on AI, Leadership, and the Future of Work · Books4Guys

• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: I love Denver.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: We were out there in the fall.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: October, I guess it was, last year, and it was perfect.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: Good time.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we were out there for an event, and it was, yeah, probably one of the bet better times you could be in Colorado, I would assume.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's definitely a great time.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Bonnie, I'm super excited to have you on the Books for Guys podcast, and thank you so much for taking the time to do this.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: As we were just talking as we were kicking this off about how there may not be a more perfect time it may not be more perfect timing than for your book to be released, which just so everyone knows is called Still Human: How to Build Organizations Where Leaders and Teams Thrive with AI.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: Are you still human with AI is a good nickname?
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: We all we all are that word has been infiltrated in our lives in so many ways, and personally, professionally, and I love the message that you are trying to share, just the importance of how to use it and balance it in the workplace and in some different scenarios.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: Bonnie, you do a lot of things.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: You speak, you coach, you help run a company you've created.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: Now you're an author, and the book's been out a couple months.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: I would love for you to just kind of take the mic for a second and share a little bit of just your story and your career path and really, really what I don't want to say triggered, but motivated you to write this book.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, Chris, I love what you do as the mom of a college kid and the wife of a husband who's an avid reader and seeing my kids not read as much as I would like.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to thank you for what you're doing in the world because I think it's awesome.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: I am an avid reader myself, which is why I was beyond excited to finally publish my own book.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: And it was a career-long dream for me.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: I never knew what that would be.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: But my whole career, I have a degree in organizational psychology.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: I've always been fascinated by what makes people be their best at work.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: I always loved being at work in big companies.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: I had great bosses, great teammates, many people who were still an important part of my life decades later.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: But work wasn't always easy.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: I felt like I had to sometimes be somebody that I didn't know if that was my authentic self to fit in and be successful.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: I felt like I sometimes had lots of great bosses.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: I had some not great bosses, I had some teams that were hard to work on.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: Then yay, I became a people manager, and nobody really told me what I was getting myself into with that.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: So as I climbed through, I started as a consultant at Deloitte in New York, where I'm from, switched to HR roles when I moved to Denver in 2000.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: And over those years, I just continued to build on my love for learning and my joy of helping people be their best at work.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: So in HR roles, I loved that I could be closer to the business and understand really how a business can succeed.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then about 14 years ago, I decided to leave my last corporate gig and start my own business.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's when I decided to become coach, consultant, and facilitator.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: I had gotten some certifications along the way.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: And the theme in all of my work is change, and it always has been changed.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: Most people either work with a consultant, come to a team building or a leadership or a management workshop, or come to a coach because they'd like to make positive change happen in their lives.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm not afraid of change.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: I love change.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, within reason.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right now, there's a lot more change going on now than many of us would like to.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: But all of that collectively led me to see what was going on with AI, see my own children and my own worries for the next generation, see my own brain starting to feel like it wasn't doing what it used to do and my own attention span.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: Thinking about social media and how boy, wouldn't it be nice if we had a crystal ball 10 or so years ago to go, wait a minute, people, do you realize what's going to happen?
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so pausing to go, now is the time with AI.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: Now is the time to write our AI story, pause and rethink a new playbook for leadership, for culture, for teamwork.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what the book is about.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's based on a framework that I created years ago on what does it take to be a great organization and then updated it last year when AI was clearly not going away.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: No, I mean you're you're a well-seasoned and well-rounded professional in being able to experience and learn many different parts of organizations.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's really cool that you've been able to see it from probably different lenses depending on what role you've been in.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so that probably helps a lot in being able to walk into an organization and maybe see what's going on and figure out maybe some of the puzzle pieces on how to configure it properly in the context of what you're working on.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: But Bonnie, I'm curious because you talked about organizational psychology, right?
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: Is that what you I'm assuming through your career you have seen a lot of different changes in the way that companies and organizations, and I and I'm thinking of like just the workplace employees operate.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm thinking like even in my short career of over, you know, a little over a decade, what 2015 looked like, and then like COVID right after COVID, and then now it's still a little bit different.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: How do you, I guess, just what's your personal experience in seeing, and how I guess, how do you keep up with just your self-evaluation and learning how these organizations change and then how you're able to go in there and and still coach?
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm assuming you've got to do your own self, and you said that you're constantly learning and challenging yourself.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: But what are some things you do to stay on top of things so that you can then help these companies do what they need to do?
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: Much has changed, and yet the bare bones of what humans need to feel successful really has not.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: If you think back to your childhood and getting praise from teachers and feeling like there was a job well done and feeling important, and feeling a sense of trust and connection with other people, feeling like you had a sense of well-being and health and you can learn and grow.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: Much of that really has not changed.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: Our basic human need for relationships and for community and connection.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of it is relying on that.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: As so much changes, one of my favorite coaching tools is simply to pause and ask ourselves, what can I control and what can't I control?
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: Because if we try to control it all, that is when we get completely stressed out and feel like a failure because we can't control it all.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: So often what we can control is things like what the list I just mentioned.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: I can ask for help.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: I can connect with the people, I can pause and say, I don't need to have all the answers.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: Where can I learn more in this moment?
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: So that brings, of course, you to the things you can't control.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then often that means, well, I'm gonna see what I can do to park those things.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to manage them and not fix them, because there's a difference between managing and fixing.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: Those are some of the tools that I've used over the years.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: And the question about how do I, how have I stayed current?
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think like a lot of people, it's experimentation and curiosity because I am a super curious person.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: I do love to experiment.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: Although I have to say, one reason I love this work is I learn from the people that I coach with all the time.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: I can teach a leadership workshop and I'm asking people for examples and I'm learning from their examples.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: Learning by connecting.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I mean, I there are tools I use like LinkedIn Learning, if I can give a plug for that.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's a great free tool.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: I have a free membership through my public library, and I do a lot of books and audiobooks for my library.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: I do a lot of podcasts.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I feel like I have ears, I can always be listening.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: So listening is a big part of my learning as well.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: I love some of the things you just said because I've had a lot of conversations with people, and it seems like the high-level achievers, consultants, coaches, curiosity is that main word of just staying curious, continuous learning.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm sitting here laughing too.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, all right, this is why Bonnie is the coach and the consultant, because the way I asked that question, I overcomplicated things myself.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of organizations do.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: There's so many new tools to use and processes to implement, and we're running at the speed of light because we've got metrics to hit and clients to close deals with.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes it takes someone like you coming in and like motivating everyone to, hey, let's let's take a quick pause.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: Let's take a reset here, let's evaluate where maybe we might be going off the rails a little bit.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, maybe people are feeling a little overwhelmed, or processes are getting a little out of whack, or maybe we're using AI in a way that's hurting us more than it's helping us.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: So let's just take a quick break, nothing too, you know, serious, but let's let's manage.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's not fixed yet.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: Let's manage and figure out where we can improve these.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I just love the way you broke that down.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: Number one, because of curious, and number two, I was thinking just how important it is for someone to come in and help us pause to make sure we, again, don't go too far south before it's unfixable.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: That is a really important message.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to spread the word on right now.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: Now is that time to take that pause and to think about what do we want to hold on to?
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: What do we want to protect as humans?
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: What are the things that we will not give up to AI that are fundamentally important to us?
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: And it really usually comes down to our values and the fact that there are things that when you think about your, your most, your best moments of your entire life, I would bet money that they did not involve a device.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: Using the device to take a picture, but in those very best moments, what was present and what were the things that you don't want to compromise?
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I I got a lovely text the other day from somebody I she had, I was helping her find a new job, and she landed and she was thrilled, and she sent me this lovely text thanking me about my help on her journey and how hard it's been and where she's she's so happy and amazing.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: This text reeked of being written by AI.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: It couldn't have been more phony.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought that is an example of something that we need to protect.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: Make it messy, make it sloppy.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: I don't need to see polished, polished messaging anymore.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: I just I don't, not if it's fake.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: So get really clear for yourself what am I protecting?
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: If you are a leader, help your team understand what I am protecting because now is the time.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: Our brains are losing capacity.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: You might be feeling this yourself.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: The research is really clear.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: If you it's an old cliche, but if you don't use it, you lose it.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: So you use the word pause, Chris, and now is the time to pause and do all that stuff because we are gonna wake up one day and go, oh no, in 2026, when I had the chance, I should have taken advantage and been a little bit slower and more intentional and more thoughtful.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm laughing too, because I almost appreciate a good like grammar mistake now because then I at least know somebody was typing it or you know, talking to me and and not just running it through a uh a model.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it's so easy to spot now, too.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure people and I guess it's just because we're always looking to optimize and human nature is always looking to make things easier, so the shortcuts are are very easy to take.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I've I've talked with someone recently too about the mindset the mindset shift of almost like purposely trying to make things a little more challenging and hard because that is the better route to go.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I see you want to say, what are your thoughts on that?
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: Well, our brains need friction.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: We learn and grow from friction.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: If think about your biggest life lessons and your biggest learning, whether it was in school or work or sports or even personal challenges, where would you be right now?
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: Where would any of us be if we didn't have that friction and those challenges?
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then you think about even relationships.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: When you've hit a sticky spot with somebody and you talk it through and you work it out, and the relationship is better for it.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: And that can happen with teams going through a tough time, it can happen in our personal lives.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: Friction sucks.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: I like to avoid it.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: I am conflict avoidant.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'll be the first to admit as a coach, I love helping people deal with conflict, but as a human, I I'm happy to avoid it.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: And yet it it helps us grow.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: We we actually really, really need it.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: So let's not outsource all of that thinking and all that friction to AI because what happens in 10 or 20 years?
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: What happens to the children that are being raised that never knew a world without AI?
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: The first college grads have just graduated now, like this week or either this month with college graduations.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: They are the first to have AI for all four years of college.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: They November of their freshman year.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so anybody after that, it's just less and less of their lives that they knew pre-AI.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: What do we want them to hold on to?
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: What do we want them to not forget in terms of how to use their brain in deeper ways?
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: Bonnie, this conversation is so important because I've I feel like, especially over the past probably three to four months, I've had more in-depth conversations around this.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I can see your passion behind it and for lack of a better term, your worry about what is going to happen if we don't figure out some things.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: Because again, to your point, everybody's just sprinting and trying to implement the latest AI tool or add-on or and all this stuff.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: And it's interesting you say that.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we people just don't seem to be challenging themselves enough.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: And you said it in a lot of different ways, relationships.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, if something doesn't go well, you you break up, you move on.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like people are just shifting and changing directions all the time instead of just continuing to chip away at maybe a path that's going to lead to some prosperity in many different areas of your life, professionally, personally.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: And it's getting harder and harder, it seems, to get those mindsets instilled in people early on because even the adults are starting to lose some of that as they dig more into AI and automation.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: And you hear people and even tech leaders say, hey, it's important, we've got to figure out how to balance this, yet nobody seems to really be doing anything or taking any real drastic measures to balance it out.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: I have a tool for that.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I also want to be clear, I am not anti-AI.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: I love AI.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: It has been life-changing, full stop, life-changing in many ways.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: Everything from recipe planning for gluten-free food, which is newer in my family, to vacation planning, writing things for my work.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, all the reasons that everyone loves AI.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: And lately I've been using Claude Co-work, which is going to the next level.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I am not anti-AI.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: However, I am very much in favor of thinking about this new term.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: We've heard of your IQ and your EQ.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: Well, now there's your AIQ.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: And that is really understanding, being very clear about the best use of humans and AI, and not just using AI as your automatic, the tool that works for everything.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: So in my book, I talk about three zones.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: And those are the connection zone, the precision zone, and the transformation zone.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: The connection zone is like this: having the one-on-one connection.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: You'd always want to call your best friend for their birthday and not have AI do a robocall or things like that.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: At work, you're going to want to have the hard performance conversations.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: You're going to want to praise for great behavior, great performance.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: You're going to want to deal with conflict, all the things that you don't want AI to take over.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: Precision zone is where AI will save the day.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: Years ago in HR roles, I would have thousands of comments from an employee survey.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: Reading them was like painful.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: I loved it, but I would like to go too deep and I wonder who this person is.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I wonder that was not a good use of my time.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: Now AI can do a beautiful job.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: Give that to AI all day long.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: The analysis, the data, it will be amazing.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's a precision zone.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: Then we have the transformation zone.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: And this is where the magic happens.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: This is where we can truly find the best of AI and the best of humans.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: So this is like a problem that a company has been trying to solve for years and years and years, and nothing's worked.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: They ask AI for give me five really great solutions.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then they have a team assess the pros and cons of the five through the lens of what our customers need, what's our culture, and what's really important to our values.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: That is one way that these days you just pause and you say, what zone is this in?
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like just stop to ask yourself this question.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I've done it with coaching clients, and I'm finding that they're realizing that that is in the connection zone, but whoops, I was overusing AI.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just a way to be really clear and intentional instead of having AI be your go-to tool each time.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: Have you recently, and I'm thinking like just past six to 12 months in your role, has it been, are there more clients or people that almost push back and don't feel like they have an issue with AI and in their organization?
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: Or are you seeing kind of the opposite where people are kind of like we're talking about, everyone's using it, um, but they are worried that maybe they're going down a slippery slope.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's a it's a welcomed conversation.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm curious of just your challenges of trying to work with organizations and what those main challenges are versus the ones that are like, yes, we need help now, please, before this, you know, again, runs off the tracks.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: When I interviewed people for the book, I was curious to hear about the premise of the book, which is with all the AI in your organization, how are you keeping the human edge sharp?
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: Are you training leaders?
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: What are you doing to make sure that we don't lose that sense of humanity?
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: And here's what I heard.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: I heard actually, that's not our problem.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: Our problem is low AI adoption.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: People are resistant.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: They're afraid of it.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people are using it in their personal lives, but they're not using it at work.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: They don't want this sense of their company spying on them at work.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: We have Gen Z, who is very AI resistant.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: They want to, they're very concerned, and rightfully so, about the environmental and the sustainability impacts of AI.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: They have grown up with way too much technology.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's all they've known.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so they're like, whoa, we finally hit the tipping point here.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: You may have heard this term Grammy, granny skills, that a lot of Gen Z is what they want to do gardening and crocheting and knitting and things with their hands, that they see the direct impact.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: I did this, I'm not using my device.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of organizations to answer your question are having more of an adoption problem.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where I think that the problem is companies are seeing it as a technology implementation.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, it's some of that, but really it's so much bigger.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's identity.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's who am I?
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: How can I contribute if all those things I used to do with my brain are no longer needed?
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: How can I contribute if companies like Shopify are saying, if you have an open job, before you fill it with a human, you need to prove AI can't do it.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna look at AI first before we hire humans.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: So people have a lot of fear.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: And one thing I'm doing is helping organizations have these open conversations.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: What are you afraid about?
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: What are you excited about?
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: What can be different?
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: I had a great chat with a team a few weeks ago, the word cheating came up.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I'm just cheating if I use AI.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: And we explored that.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Well, last I checked, here's what cheating was.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: The kid in school who wrote the answers down their sleeve and they're reading the answers to their math test on their sleeve.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's cheating because only one kid has the answers on the on their arm.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's not cheating if every single one of us has access to the same tool, to the same intelligence.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: So what's important now is that you are super clear on what can you, Chris, what can me, Bonnie, what can any of us do that's really unique.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: So get really clear on your human strengths so that you can quote cheat with no guilt and realize it's not actually cheating, it's just being incredibly efficient, which your company is asking you to do.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: No, I think I love everything you're saying, especially around clarity, because I'm sitting here thinking of just me personally and how I feel kind of stuck and in the middle of it.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: In one regard, I'll do task and then I'll realize, oh, I can do this in AI.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, oh, I'm such an idiot.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: Why didn't I do this like a month ago?
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like, let's start implementing this now.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: But I also have this pool where I'm also like, I would love to use less technology.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't want to be on it as much.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like my eyes are looking at a screen, you know, 12, 13 hours a day.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: There's it that can't be good for me.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: And the amount of information that I'm forcing myself to process can't be great, but but I'm gonna be behind if everyone else is using it and learning things every day and I'm taking a break.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: It just seems like we're in that stage too, where a lot of people maybe feel similar, the ones I've talked to.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, I know it's not good for me to do this much of it, but I need to be doing this much of it.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm sure that's something you work with teams and organizations too, of yeah, I mean, you kind of explained it, of helping people feel comfortable using it, but also not to the level of where it diminishes human relationships and conversation and trainings and such.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: There just seems to be a lot of muddied water that we have to walk through right now to try and, and I hate to use the word optimize, because that's kind of what this does, but like to really find the balance of it all.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: There's a bit of a goalie lock situation with AI.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people think that they're not using enough of it, they hear it.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: About it, what is it?
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: How can they use more of it?
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: Now I'm hearing about Claude and people are coding.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: And am I supposed to make my own app now and my own website?
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then there are some people who are that's the majority.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: They need to catch up.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's moving too fast.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then some people feel like I'm I'm overloading, I'm doing too much, I'm attached to screens too much.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think part of the way you find that perfect balance is research now shows that, and this is all over the place, depending on who you are, but on average it's saving most people two and a half hours a week of time.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: So the big question is what do you do with your two and a half hours?
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: Most people are just doing more work.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: So you're right.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: They're glued to their screens and they're like, good, I have a to-do list.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna just do more of my to-do list.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: Well, instead, we can very intentionally sure, maybe some of that is more computer work, more to-do list, no doubt.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: And if that can save you from working on the weekend, working on evenings, great.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm all for that.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: However, take some of that time and dedicate it to your relationships, your connection, to mentoring, to learning, to your health and well-being.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: Take some of that time away from your desk.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: Go for a walk, get fresh air.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: Be really intentional to say to yourself, what am I gonna do with that time?
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: I call these magic minutes.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: And these truly are you can make magic happen if you're using them in a thoughtful way instead of just putting them back into your computer.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: I do love that.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: I do love that.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: Thankfully, you know, and this is just me personally.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: I know people have different situations, but I've been more intentional about going on walks throughout the day and getting outside, leaving the phone inside.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I will say those 15, 20 minute breaks have made a world of difference in just my mood, the just my brain, my energy.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds so simple.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I've I've all I'm I exercise, I've always done all that, but but being a little more intentional, intentional about it recently, I've noticed a huge difference.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I think it seems like other people are realizing that too in a good way, that health and wellness is kind of making a big push and food you eat, and people do have some of these other things they're focused on.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: And but I don't think that message can be pushed enough because uh, like you said, that's very important.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: Take those, take that time you're saving by using AI and put it towards your well-being, and that would really help you find your balance.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: I've personally seen a big difference in in mine, so I I love that message.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: Good for you.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's really important, and I'm glad you're spreading the word on that.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: And ironically, you can ask AI to help you.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: You can say, you can even say, How much time do you think I'm saving?
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then you can say, with that time, for me to be a healthier person, more well-rounded, more connected, what do you recommend I do?
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I love using AI to ironically help with things that are not AI specific.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: Why not?
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's great with scheduling.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm all for microhabits.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: We may not have time to take an hour to the gym, but microhabits means even if you're taking five minutes, even if you do grocery shopping and you park on the furthest end of the parking lot as you possibly can because you're getting in more steps.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: So build on those microhabits all day long.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: The healthy snack instead of the junky snack, more water, etc.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: We all know them, we just don't do them enough.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: Those little micro brain tricks that you can do and implement make a huge difference over the long haul.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: They feed our heart and soul and they make us more productive.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: They really do.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Bonnie, one, I got two more questions for you.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: And one, you may have kind of already answered in this last, just kind of how you were describing taking the time for yourself.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm curious to know, as people read your book and then they're going through it, what is a message if they don't take anything else away from what you are trying to put out there?
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: What do you hope that one bit of information is that they do consume and implement?
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: You as humans have agency.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: You have control.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: It feels like AI is taking over.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: It feels like technology is taking over.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: And in some ways, it is.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's our choice that we're making.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: So you as a human has have the control to be intentional, to be thoughtful about the places that you won't let AI take over and to think about at the maybe it's your retirement party.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: Some people think about their funeral, but we're gonna say your retirement party.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: How do you most want to be remembered?
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: Now is the time to live your life in those ways.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: And at the end of a week or a month, think about what have I done to really live and honor those ways that I want to be remembered.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: Because it probably wasn't, I was the fastest one with the newest tools.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so thinking about connecting with people for for learning and growth and relationships and connection to your community and all the things we've been talking about, be intentional to do those now because you have the power to do that.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of goes in line with something I saw last week where it talks about as humans, are we living or are we just existing?
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: The more we automate and our brains are going through all this technology, are we just going with emotions and doling ourselves down and not being intentional, talking and being around friends and family and doing things that feed our soul and our life.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I love that message from you.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: If we're in control, be intentional about it and don't let those things slip away too far because you can't get those moments and memories back as a human if you're not intentional about that.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I love that message, Bonnie.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: Last question for you.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: And you said you've listened to a few episodes, and so I love to ask this at the end of everyone just because I'm curious to know what different people are reading and interested in, and what can I recommend to our community.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: But Bonnie, for you personally, what is a book or two that has meant a lot to you, personally or professionally?
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: And what is a book or two that you love to recommend to other people?
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I to me I think more in terms of authors than books.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: So two for me are Brene Brown and Adam Grant, who ironically now I think have their own podcast going.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: But Brene Brown was the one who really shed the light for me on the idea of vulnerability and realizing that that for me was such a life changer.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: I thought I had to be the smartest and keep it buttoned up and be all polished, and we all have stuff.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: So this comes really as a big message in my book, Being Human First, and vulnerability is an important part of that.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: And then Adam Grant's work goes a little bit further and talks about how that shows up in organizations.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: Most of us will spend decades working.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so do what you can to take agency to make that work for you, whether it's managing up to a difficult boss, learning and growing things that will help you, or just seeking out the people who bring meaning outside of work because work is too hard for you.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: So those are two of my favorites.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: I love that question.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, great messages and great authors.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: So, Bonnie, again, thank you for taking the time to do this.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: And thank you for taking the time to write and publish your book because again, I think now is the time for that to be out there.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: And we're very proud and honored to share your work and your book and push that message as well to hopefully help us all find that balance as things continue to steam ahead.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Bonnie, keep keep doing what you're doing, keep sharing the message, keep talking about the book, keep write, write more if they if they come to you, and we'll be happy to spotlight those two.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: But no, very, very honored to have you on the Books for Guys podcast, and we really appreciate it.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, because I I was honored to be here.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: And the book has tips and tools and frameworks and reflection questions, and there's a free assessment that goes along with it.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: So it is meant to not be theory, but super actionable.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: I I my my mission is really to see change happen in work today and leaders in culture and teaming.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you for helping me get that message out there.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll make sure that we have all of that in the notes for everyone to go find the book as well, who's interested in purchasing it.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so, but no, this has been great.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Bonnie.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Chris.
• 29:54
  unknown: Um, you know, I think that's a good