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Jack the Ripper’s Identity Revealed After DNA Breakthrough, Historian Says · Murder Files Unsealed

0:00
Speaker 1: Welcome to the deep dive. Today we are tackling, well,
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probably the biggest historical cold case there is Jack the Ripper.
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Speaker 2: It's the one, isn't it? The mystery that.
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Speaker 1: Haunts us for one hundred and thirty seven years? The
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identity of the killer who stalked London's Whitechapel. It's just
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been lost in fog and endless speculation.
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Speaker 2: Absolutely, we're talking about that intense period August to November
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eighteen eighty eight. At least five women, the canonical five,
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all prostitutes, just trying to survive. They met these horrific ends.
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Speaker 1: Horrific is the word. The mutilations were brutal, but also
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disturbingly precise. It immediately made people think, you know, this
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person knows something about anatomy exactly.
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Speaker 2: And despite this huge police effort Scotland Yard threw what
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over two thousand officers at it.
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Speaker 1: A massive number for the time, right.
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Speaker 2: But the killer just vanished, and over the next century
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the list of suspects became well, almost absurd, royalty like
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Prince Albert Victor.
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Speaker 1: Queen Victoria's grandson no Less, all the way.
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Speaker 2: To sort of eccentric figures. This American quack doctor Francis Tumblety,
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the Ripper became this almost supernatural figure, less.
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Speaker 1: A person, more ghost story. Yeah, until that is February fourteenth,
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twenty twenty five. That's when this British historian Russell Edwards
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made this huge claim. He said, basically, mystery salt through
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advanced DNA analysis.
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Speaker 2: And he named a name, Aaron Kosminski, a twenty three
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year old Polish Jewish barber living right there in Whitechapel.
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Speaker 1: Right in the heart of it. And Edwards is completely
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convinced his quote was without a doubt, one hundred percent.
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It's him really unambiguous.
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Speaker 2: So that's our deep dive today. We need to unpack this.
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We'll look at the tear of Whitechapel back, then the
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original police case against Cosminski.
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Speaker 1: Himself, which often gets forgotten right.
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Speaker 2: Then dive into the science, the DNA, the shal it's
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fascinating stuff, but also crucially we need to look at
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the doubts, the skepticism, because with evidence this old, well
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it's complicated.
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Speaker 1: It really is. You can't just take it at face value.
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Speaker 2: Okay, So before we get to the DNA testing in
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twenty twenty five, let's really set the scene ten eighty
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eight Whitechapel. You can't grasp the horror of the murders
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without understanding the place itself. You called it a pauldron
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of despair. That's a good way to put it. The
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poverty there, it's hard for us to even imagine. Now,
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this wasn't the London of top hats and carriages people
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might think of. It was a slum packed.
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Speaker 1: Volatile, packed with who mainly.
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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, people pouring in from the English countryside hoping
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for factory work, but also huge waves of immigrants, Irish
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families fleeing hardship, and critically for this story, Eastern European
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Jews like Kasminski's family exactly fleeing these horrific anti Semitic
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programs in the Russian Empire. They landed in the East
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End seeking safety, but found grinding poverty instead.
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Speaker 1: The numbers you mentioned are just staggering. Eighty thousand people
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crammed into these tiny, squalid tenements.
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Speaker 2: The density was unbelievable. Think about sanitation, disease, and the
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crime statistics just reflected that desperation. The murder rate was
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apparently fifty times higher than the rest of.
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Speaker 1: London, fifty times wow.
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Speaker 2: Bible was everything, and for so many women that meant
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turning to prostitution. Estimates are around twelve hundred sex workers
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in just that small area.
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Speaker 1: We have to remember these victims weren't just names on
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a list. They were real people pushed to the absolute edge.
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Mary Ann Nichols the first canonical victim. She was a
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mother of five, a widow.
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Speaker 2: Just trying to earn enough for a bed for the night.
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That's the level of vulnerability the Ripper preate on the
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absolute most marginalized people in a deeply broken society.
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Speaker 1: Let's quickly walk through the timeline of those canonical five murders,
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because the way the violence escalated really shows the growing panic.
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Speaker 2: It starts August thirty first, Mary Anne Nichols found in
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Buck's Row, throat cut, abdomen slashed open.
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Speaker 1: Bad enough, obviously, but then it gets worse.
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Speaker 2: A week later, Annie Chapman found in the backyard of
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twenty nine Hanbury Street, eviscerated. Her uterus was actually removed
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and tucked into her apron.
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Speaker 1: That's when the press really latched onto the idea of
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a specific skilled killer, right the White Chapel fiend.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, the surgical aspect became undeniable and then, of course
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the killer gave himself a name, the.
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Speaker 1: Dear Boss letter sent to a news agency signed.
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Speaker 2: He act a Ripper.
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Speaker 1: And suddenly it wasn't just a series of murders. It
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was this public performance, almost a taunt, which must have
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terrified people even more.
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Speaker 2: Absolutely, the panic peaked with the double event September thirtieth,
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early morning. First Elizabeth Stride in Duttfield's yard, throat cut
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but minimal mutilation. The thinking is he was likely interrupted.
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Speaker 1: Interrupted because he wasn't done for the night, apparently not.
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Speaker 2: Just forty five minutes later, maybe a ten minute walk away,
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Catherine ETOs is found in Miter Square, and this time
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the brutality is off the scale.
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Speaker 1: Face mutilated, intestines removed and draped over her shoulder, kidneys
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and uter is.
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Speaker 2: Taken like trophies. It's chilling, and this double murder, this
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rapid escalation, leads directly to maybe the most debated piece
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of evidence from the original investigation.
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Speaker 1: The Golston Street graffito.
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Speaker 2: Exactly near where they found Eto's body, police disc cover
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a piece of her apron stained with blood and uh feces.
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But nearby, under an archway, someone had chalked a message.
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Speaker 1: The Jews are the men that will not be blamed
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for nothing spelled juwees.
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Speaker 2: Right now, think about the context. Whitechapel is overflowing with
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newly arrived Jewish refugees, anti immigrant, anti Semitic feeling is
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already simmering.
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Speaker 1: So the police see this message and.
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Speaker 2: The police commissioner himself, Sir Charles Warren, races to the scene.
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He orders it washed off immediately gone.
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Speaker 1: Wait, they destroyed potential evidence, they did.
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Speaker 2: They took a photograph apparently, but the chalk itself was erased.
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The fear was that if that message stayed up, it
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would spark huge anti Semitic riots, mass violence.
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Speaker 1: So public order versus forensic evidence a.
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Speaker 2: Terrible choice, really, but it shows you the tension in
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the air. The fear wasn't just about the ripper. It
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was about the whole society potentially tearing itself apart.
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Speaker 1: And after that explosion of violence, the final canonical murder
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comes about six weeks.
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Speaker 2: Later, November ninth, Mary Jane Kelly in her room thirteen
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Miller's Court. The scene was indescribable, apparently a complete butcher shop,
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far beyond anything before body flayed. Organs removed her heart
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was missing.
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Speaker 1: The absolute peak of the horror.
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Speaker 2: And then nothing silence. The ripper just stops, vanishes. The
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public outcry is immense. Sir Charles Warren resigns, the case
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goes cold, the legend begins.
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Speaker 1: That pressure, that public outcry and the failure to catch
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him must have forced the police to really scrutinize the
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local community, which brings us back to Erin Kazminsky. He
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wasn't just a later theory. He was a suspect back then.
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Speaker 2: He absolutely was, and his life story places him right
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in the middle of everything. Aaron Wardki Kazminsky born eighteen
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sixty five in Klodawa, part of Russian.
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Speaker 1: Poland then fleeing persecution.
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Speaker 2: Yes, his family escaped the pogroms like so many others,
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arriving in England around eighteen eighty one.
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Speaker 1: And where did they settle Whitechapel. Naturally right in the
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Jewish enclave. He lives just streets away from where the
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murders happened, and his job he was a hairdresser working
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at nine Providence Court, just off Spittlefield's.
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Speaker 2: Market, which is literally yards from Hanbury Street where Annie
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Chapman was killed.
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Speaker 1: Exactly the geography fits perfectly. He's there, he's present, But.
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Speaker 2: What about him as a person. The record suggests he
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was well, deeply troubled. Definitely physically apparently quite unremarkable, five
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foot five, pale, light brown hair, slate mustache, but mentally
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things were clearly going wrong. He was actually institutionalized briefly
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back in eighteen eighty five, even before the main Ripper period,
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for insanity.
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Speaker 1: And later diagnosed with schizophrenia yes.
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Speaker 2: Which often involves paranoia delusions of persecution. Records show he
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believed people were trying to poison him, starve him, force
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him to do things, a very tormented mind.
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Speaker 1: But here's the major sticking point, isn't it? The contradiction
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in his behavior.
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Speaker 2: It's a huge one. On the one hand, he could
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be violent. There's a record of him threatening his own
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sister with a knife. That fits a pally violent profile, okay.
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But on the other hand, asylum record specifically mentioned he
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had a phobia, a phobia of blood and of knives.
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Speaker 1: How is that square with someone carrying out these incredibly
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bloody hands on mutilations. It seems incompatible.
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Speaker 2: It's a massive challenge to the theory. How could someone
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terrified of blood wide into that kind of gore. It's
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a question that hangs over the whole case against him historically.
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Speaker 1: Yet despite this, the police at the time seriously considered him.
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What specific evidence did they have beyond proximity and his
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known instability.
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Speaker 2: The strongest pointers come from internal police documents written slightly
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after the murder stopped. Sir Melville McNaughton, the Assistant Chief Constable,
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wrote a memo in eighteen ninety four.
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Speaker 1: The famous McNaughton memoranda right, and in.
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Speaker 2: It he lists his top three suspects. Because Minsky is
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one of them, he explicitly names him.
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Speaker 1: And there was an eyewitness connection too.
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Speaker 2: Yes, this is crucial. Here's a witness, Israel Schwartz, who
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saw a man attacking Elizabeth Stride shortly before she was
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found dead. Okay, Later, around eighteen ninety five, Detective Chief
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Inspector Donald Swanson, a key figure in the investigation, wrote
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notes in the margin of another police file. He actually
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circled Kazminsky's.
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Speaker 1: Name, circled his name and wrote what he wrote.
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Speaker 2: That Kazminsky had been positively identified by the witness positively identified.
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Speaker 1: Then why wasn't he arrested charged? If they had an
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id ah.
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Speaker 2: This is the heartbreaking part. Swanson's note goes on to
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say why the witness Schwartz, would not testify against a
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fellow Jew.
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Speaker 1: Because of the anti Semitism, the fear of backlash against
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the whole community.
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Speaker 2: Exactly remember the Golston Street graffito. The community was terrified.
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If Schwartz had publicly pointed the finger out a Polish Jew,
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the consequences could have been dire for everyone. So he
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refused to give formal evidence in court.
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Speaker 1: No witness testimony, no prosecution, even with a positive ID.
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Speaker 2: Precisely, they couldn't make the murder charge stick without that
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crucial courtroom testimony.
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Speaker 1: So Kazminsky avoids a murder trial.
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Speaker 2: What happens to him then, well, his mental health gave
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the authorities another option. In eighteen ninety one, just as
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the murders had stopped, he's committed sent to call me
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atch asylum on.
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Speaker 1: What grounds surely not suspicion of murder.
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Speaker 2: No, the official reasons listed were quite bizarre, masturbation and
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persecution mania.
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Speaker 1: That seems like a pretext almost or just a reflection
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of psychiatric understanding back then.
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Speaker 2: Probably a bit of both. But the timing is incredibly convenient,
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isn't it. The ripper murders stop and this prime suspect
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is taken off the streets and locked.
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Speaker 1: Away, where he stayed for the rest of his life
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pretty much.
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Speaker 2: He was later moved to Leavesden Asylum. The records from
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there paint a grim picture. He became mute, apparently quite feral,
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refused to wash, wouldn't eat properly, described as a very
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dirty fellow, just completely deteriorated.
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Speaker 1: And he died there, yes.
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Speaker 2: In nineteen nineteen, aged fifty three, having spent almost thirty
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years locked away, completely forgotten.
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Speaker 1: It's interesting how later researchers like Martin Fido in the
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eighties connected Cosminsky to another figure mentioned in police notes,
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This anonymous David Cohen. Right.
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Speaker 2: Fido argued they might be the same person, another Jewish
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immigrant suspect who ended up in an asylum right when
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the killing ceased. It all feeds this idea that the
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police likely knew who their man was, but the legal
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and social hurdles meant they couldn't prove it in court.
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Speaker 1: Okay, so that sets the historical stage. Kauz Minsky a
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strong suspect identified but not prosecuted locked away as the
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murder stop. Let's jump forward over a century into the
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world of DNA.
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Speaker 2: And into the story of Russell Edwards. He's not a
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history by trade, right, He's a financial pr consultant, that's right.
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Speaker 1: But he became obsessed with a ripper case, a real ripperologist.
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Speaker 2: And his obsession centered on a specific object, a silk
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shawl stained with what looked like blood.
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Speaker 1: He bought it at auction in two thousand and seven,
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paid about two thousand pounds for it. He was convinced
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it belonged to Catherine Etto's, the victim from mider Square.
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Speaker 2: What was the story behind the shawl? How did it
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supposedly link to crime scene?
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Speaker 1: The provenance is is well, it's based on family lore.
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The story goes that a police sergeant named Amos, who
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was supposedly at the Miters Square scene, took it and
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it was passed down through his family for generations.
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Speaker 2: Okay, so a family story, not an official police reckae.
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Speaker 1: That's important later definitely Now, Edwards tried to use this
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shawl back in twenty fourteen. He published some findings claiming
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a DNA match, but it didn't really land it.
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Speaker 2: Now it was met with a lot of skepticism. Firstly,
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that provenance issue, the family story no official record, big
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red flag.
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Speaker 1: For historians, and the DNA itself.
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Speaker 2: The main finding then was mitochondrial DNA mtDNA, which, as
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we know, is passed down the maternal line.
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Speaker 1: Right, let's break that down quickly for listeners. Why is
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mtDNA not great for pinpointing one specific person?
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Speaker 2: Okay, think of mtDNA like a very common family name
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passed down only from mothers to all their children. It's stable,
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lasts a long time in samples, so it's good for
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tracing ancient ancestry or ruling people out if their maternal
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line doesn't match.
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Speaker 1: But lots of people can share the same maternal.
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Speaker 2: Surname exactly, especially in a place like eighteen eighty eight
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Whitechapel full of immigrants from specific regions in Eastern Europe.
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Thousands of unrelated people might share the same mtDNA profile
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just because their distant maternal ancestors came from the same area.
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So you can say the DNA could belong to someone
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from Edo's maternal line or Cosminski's, but you can't say
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it definitely does to the exclusion of everyone else So.
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Speaker 1: Twenty fourteen interesting, suggestive, but ultimately flawed. What changed for
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the twenty twenty five.
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Speaker 2: Claim Edwards didn't give up. He commissioned a much more
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advanced analysis, this time with biochemists Jerry Lohalanin and David Miller.
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Their paper came out in the Journal of Forensic Sciences
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in February twenty twenty five. They called it the most
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systematic and advanced genetic analysis to date on the Ripper.
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Speaker 1: Case, and the technology that these was key right.
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Speaker 2: Next generation sequencing absolutely NNGS is a game changer for
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ancient degraded DNA. You're dealing with DNA that's over one
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hundred and thirty years old, probably handled by dozens of
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people exposed to the environment. The strands are broken into
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tiny pieces. Oh that's hard to read, very hard with
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older methods. But NGNGS can sequence millions of these tiny
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fragments simultaneously and piece them back together, almost like a
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digital jigsaw puzzle. It lets you get usable information from
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samples that were previously thought to be too damaged. They
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also use sophisticated statistics Bayesian analysis to assess the probability
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of the.
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Speaker 1: Matches, and crucially, they weren't just testing the shawl in isolation.
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They got DNA from living relatives.
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Speaker 2: Yes, this was vital for rigor. They tracked down and
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got DNA samples from three living descendants of Catherine Edo's
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through her granddaughter Alice, that confirmed her maternal mtDNA line
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and for Cousminsky, they found a living maternal relative of
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Kusminsky's sister Matilda. This gave them the confirmed comparison points
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for both the victims and the potential killers lineages.
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Speaker 1: Okay, so let's get to the results from the shawl itself. Kah.
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What did this advanced to analysis find.
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Speaker 2: Two key things. First, on the bloodstains, they found NTDNA
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that was a one hundred two percent match to Catherine
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Eto's confirmed lineage from her descendants. They argued this specific
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mtDNA profile or haplotype was rare enough to rule out
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ninety nine point nine to nine percent of the general
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European population.
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Speaker 1: Okay, so that strongly links the showl to the victim.
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What about the killer?
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Speaker 2: They also found sieman stains on the showal and from
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these they extracted two types of male genetic information, which
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were first a Y chromosome profile. Unlike mtDNA. The Y
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chromosome passes directly from father to son, so it's much
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better for tracing a specific male line The y chromosome
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profile they found matched the lineage traced from Cosminsky's sisters relative, so.
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Speaker 1: That points to the Cosmiski family line. But they went
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further from more precision.
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Speaker 2: Yes, this is the really crucial bit. Scientifically. They managed
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to extract and analyze nuclear DNA as well, the DNA
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from the cell nucleus which contains the full genetic blueprint,
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and they looked for specific markers called SNP.
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Speaker 1: Single nucleotide polymorphisms tiny variation.
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Speaker 2: Exactly, but think of them like unique typos in the
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genetic code. They're much more individual specific than broad lineage
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markers like mt DNA or even Y chromosomes. They found
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SNPs in the semen sample that corroborated the link specifically
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to Kosminsky's lineage.
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Speaker 1: So it's like going from a family name mtDNA Y
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chromosome to a specific individual within that family smps.
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Speaker 2: That's a good analogy. The combination mtDNA matching the victim
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y chromosome plus corroborating SNPs from the semen matching the
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suspect's lineage. That's what Edwards and his team argue makes
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the case definitive. The one hundred percent it's him claim
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rests on this multi layered genetic evidence.
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Speaker 1: And Edwards ties this science back into the historical context.
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Speaker 2: Doesn't Yes, he argues, it makes the whole historical picture
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click in place. The Shawls DNA links it to ETOs
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fibers on it supposedly match for clothing. Kosminsky's job is
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a barber, sometimes called barber surgeons back then.
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Speaker 1: Because they did minor procedures right, lancing boils, things like
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that exactly.
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Speaker 2: So maybe that explains the anatomical knowledge, the skill with
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a blade, and then the timing. The murder stopped right
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when Cosminsky is committed to the asylum. Edwards argues, the
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DNA confirms the circumstantial case that was always there. But
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and it's a big butt. Even with this cutting edge science,
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the case isn't closed for everyone. Far from it. We
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absolutely have to look at the criticisms and the doubts.
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This isn't a simple victory lap for science.
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Speaker 1: No, especially with the case this legendary and evidence this old,
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you need intense scrutiny. So what are the main counter arguments?
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Where does this skepticism come from?
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Speaker 2: Okay, the first major challenge comes from other geneticists looking
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at the findings, specifically the mt DNA match for Eto's
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Remember they said it ruled out ninety nine point nine
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nine percent of Europeans.
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Speaker 1: Yes, sounds pretty definitive.
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Speaker 2: Well, the issue is which Europeans that specific mtDNA haplotype.
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The technical spring is one sixty four O nine C
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one six nine and so on. While rare overall, is
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actually quite common in certain populations, with populations specifically Eastern
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Europeans and even more specifically Ashkenazi Jews, which of course
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describes a Kuzminsky and thousands of others in Whitechapel at
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the time.
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Speaker 1: Ah, So the ninety nine point nine to nine percent
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figure might be misleading in the specific context of eighteen
18:08
eighty eight Whitechapel exactly.
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Speaker 2: Leading geneticists like Turi King at Lester University. She was
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involved in identifying Richard the Third's remain, so she knows
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ancient DNA. She pointed this out. Her take was essentially
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the mtDNA match could be from Kusminsky, sure, but it
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could also be from literally thousands of other people living
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in London then who shared that same common Ashkenazi maternal lineage.
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Speaker 1: So that casts doubt on the statistical certain deal least
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for the mtDNA part. Even the Y chromosome and SNPs
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are they completely unique.
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Speaker 2: They are much more specific, definitely, but ancient DNA is tricky.
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Degradation can cause errors that might look like SNPs, and
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even why profiles can be shared within extended families. The
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critics aren't necessarily saying the match is wrong, but that
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the level of certainty claimed might be overstated given the
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potential pool of matches and the degraded nature.
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Speaker 1: Of the sample, which leads us straight back to the
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biggest historical problem, the shawl itself. Where did it really
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come from?
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Speaker 2: This is probably the weakest link in the whole chain
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for many historians. People like Hallie Rubinholt, who wrote that
19:11
fantastic book focusing on the victims' lives, point out there
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is zero mention of a silk shawl in any official
19:19
police inventory from the Miterer Square crime scene, No coroner's
19:22
report mentions it nothing.
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Speaker 1: It only appears in the historical record much later, based
19:27
on that family story about Sergeant Amos taking it exactly.
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Speaker 2: It surfaces publicly in nineteen eighty eight. So if you
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can't definitively prove the shawl was at the crime scene
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with Catherine Edos's body, then well, what does the DNA
19:40
on it actually prove?
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Speaker 1: It proves Kazminski's DNA and Edo's DNA were on the
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same piece of silk at some point, but not necessarily
19:46
that he killed her.
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Speaker 2: Cisely, the chain of custody is completely broken. And think
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about contamination. This shawl wasn't sealed in an evidence bag
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for one hundred and thirty years.
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Speaker 1: No, it was kept by a family, handled, stored, probably washed,
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then auctioned.
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Speaker 2: Right, It's been exposed to countless potential sources of DNA
20:03
contamination over more than a century. Could someone else who
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handled it have left DNA? Could DNA have transferred from
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other objects stored nearby? Could Edo's DNA have got on
20:14
it after the murder if the policeman did take it home.
20:16
Could Kousminsky's DNA well, could it have got there some
20:19
other way entirely unrelated to the murder. The possibilities for
20:23
error with ancient, heavily handled items are huge.
20:27
Speaker 1: So some critics suggest the result might be a false positive,
20:30
or that the researchers were maybe too keen to find
20:32
a match that fit their suspect.
20:34
Speaker 2: That argument is definitely out there. People like Paul Begg,
20:37
another respected Ripper author, have voiced concerns about potential evidence manipulation,
20:42
maybe subconsciously to fit the pre existing theory about Cosminsky.
20:46
There was also criticism that the initial peer review of
20:48
the twenty twenty five paper didn't include the raw DNA
20:51
sequenced data, which makes independent verification harder.
20:55
Speaker 1: Okay, so we have genetic doubts about the rarity of
20:58
the markers, huge historical doubts the shawl's origin, and concerns
21:01
about contamination. What about the behavioral issues we touched on
21:04
earlier that.
21:05
Speaker 2: Still bothers people. Ripperologist Drew Gray really hammers this point.
21:09
Kuzminsky's documented phobia of blood, how does that fit with
21:13
the ripper who seemed almost to revel in gore, especially
21:17
with Mary Jane Kelly. It's a stark contradiction and.
21:20
Speaker 1: The idea that locking him up stop the murders. Yeah,
21:23
does that hold water completely?
21:25
Speaker 2: It's compelling timing undeniably, but correlation isn't causation. Skeptics ask
21:31
if he was this frenzied killer driven by this schizophrenia
21:34
with simply being confined stop the urges entirely. Asylum records
21:38
show he was difficult, yes, but not necessarily carrying out
21:41
Ripper style attacks inside. Why the complete cessation of that specific,
21:45
highly ritualized type of violence just because he was institutionalized.
21:49
It lines up, but it's not definitive proof.
21:51
Speaker 1: So where does this leave us. We have this incredibly
21:54
evaned science pointing strongly at one man, Aaron Kazminsky, the
21:57
most specific link ever found.
21:59
Speaker 2: Yet we also have these significant nagging doubts, the common
22:03
DNA markers in that specific population, the shaky origin story
22:06
of the crucial piece of evidence, the SHAWL, and those
22:09
behavioral inconsistencies. It's not quite the slam dunk case some
22:12
might have hoped for.
22:13
Speaker 1: But regardless of whether you're one hundred percent convinced or
22:15
still skeptical, this focus on Kasminsky does change the narrative,
22:19
doesn't it. It pulls Jack the Ripper out of the
22:22
realm of myth.
22:23
Speaker 2: It really does. If it is Cosminsky, then the Ripper
22:25
wasn't some evil genius or a phantom drifting through the fog.
22:29
He was a real person, a deeply unwell immigrant struggling
22:33
with severe mental illness, paranoid schizophrenia, living on the absolute
22:37
margins of society.
22:38
Speaker 1: It demystifies the killer, yeah, makes him less of a
22:40
monster perhaps, and more of a tragic broken figure himself,
22:44
albeit one who committed monstrous acts exactly.
22:47
Speaker 2: You see his life trajectory of fleeing persecution, ending up
22:50
in this desperate part of London, working with tools like razors,
22:53
which is chillingly relevant, and then the slow, sad decline
22:57
into psychosis in decades of institutionalsation, dying unknown. It's a
23:02
human story, albeit a very dark one.
23:04
Speaker 1: And maybe the most positive outcome of all this, whether
23:06
the idea is perfect or not, is that it brings
23:08
the focus back to the victims.
23:10
Speaker 2: Absolutely. For too long, they've just been ripper victims names
23:14
attached to the killer's legend. This reminds us they were
23:17
women like Catherine Edo's who worked in tinplate factories before
23:20
falling on hard times, or Mary Anne Nichols, a mother
23:23
trying to feed her kids.
23:25
Speaker 1: Their descendants are still seeking some kind of closure. You
23:28
mentioned Karen Miller Tter's great great great granddaughter.
23:31
Speaker 2: Yes, she and others have spoken about wanting a form
23:34
of justice, not revenge obviously, but validation, acknowledgment of what happened,
23:40
and perhaps finally knowing the name of the man responsible.
23:44
Speaker 1: And Russell Edwards isn't stopping here. He's actually trying to
23:46
make this official legally.
23:48
Speaker 2: That's right. He's petitioned the UK's Attorney General to reopen
23:51
the inquest into Catherine Eto's death based on this new
23:55
DNA evidence.
23:56
Speaker 1: Using coronial law? Can they do that after so long?
24:00
Speaker 2: So? The argument is that significant new evidence has come
24:03
to light that wasn't available at the original inquest in
24:06
eighteen eighty eight. And interestingly, some of Kazminsky's own relatives
24:10
are reportedly supporting this move. They want certainty too.
24:13
Speaker 1: Wow. If that inquest happens, what would it mean?
24:16
Speaker 2: It would be huge, potentially setting a massive precedent. You'd
24:20
have scientists testifying under oath about ancient DNA evidence in
24:24
a Victorian cold case. The court would have to weigh
24:27
the modern science against the historical doubts if they formerly
24:31
concluded Kosminsky was responsible. Well, it could open the door
24:34
for similar attempts in other historical mysteries.
24:37
Speaker 1: A real collision of history and forensic science at a courtroom.
24:40
Speaker 2: It really would be.
24:41
Speaker 1: So we end where we began. Really with this tension,
24:45
science seems to have pointed a finger, giving the killer
24:48
a name, Aaron Kazminski, for the first time with this
24:51
level of molecular backing. Yeah, but the doubts remain. So
24:55
here's the thought to leave you with. Is holding onto
24:57
those doubts, focusing on the Shawls Dodge providence, the common
25:01
DNA markers just a way of keeping the mystery alive.
25:05
Do we secretly prefer the caped phantom ripper myth to
25:08
the sad reality of a mentally ill barber?
25:10
Speaker 2: Or is that skepticism absolutely vital? Is it essential scientific
25:14
and historical rigor when you're dealing with degraded evidence from
25:17
over a century ago, evidence that could potentially point to
25:19
thousands of people. Has the Whitechapel file finally been slam
25:22
shut by science?
25:23
Speaker 1: Or has this DNA discovery just opened a whole new
25:27
chapter in the debate, one that historians and scientists will
25:30
be wrestling with for years to come.
25:31
Speaker 2: The ripper himself may be long dead, but it seems
25:34
the quest to truly understand what happened in Whitechapel in
25:37
eighteen eighty eight is very much alive.
25:39
Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us for this deep dive. We'll
25:41
see you next time.