Latest / The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show / Episode 25, Season 2: Plant-Based Interventions for PTSD & CPTSD

Transcript

Episode 25, Season 2: Plant-Based Interventions for PTSD & CPTSD · The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show

• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Love Dog Podcast. I'm your co host Rana,
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: but you'er here with our host, doctor Sarah Hinsley, the
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: founder and CEO of the Love Doc relationship coaching services. Hi.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: Hey, I think we should start out by thanking our
• 0:24
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• 0:27
  Speaker 1: Armora colostrum has literally changed my gut. Guys. Yes, I've
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• 0:35
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. I was in the hospital on the night.
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  Speaker 2: She's in the hospital the night of my rehearsal dinner
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: because of her gut.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And then when I started taking armorh you know me.
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  Speaker 1: a dairy intolerance, just be mindful of that. But they
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  Speaker 2: Orange range, orange, watermelon, apricot, peanapple, pineapple. I'm gonna try
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  Speaker 1: No, I didn't like it as much it's still delicious.
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• 1:17
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• 1:26
  Speaker 1: can see them at armor dot com. Nice. All right,
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: so today we are going to talk about a really
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: really interesting topic.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: A controversial one.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah that's what I was about to say too. I
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: didn't want to say it.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: I have all these notes on my phone, So okay,
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: I'm just gonna let you go, like similar to last
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: week's episode, I'm just gonna let you go on your
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: little your little rant there where.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: You just I think sometimes I don't have a whole
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: lot to offer and I'm just over here and I'm
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: just like, and I'm trying to watch my rides in
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: a huhs. Yeah, that's trying to be mindful. I'm trying
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: to be mindful too.
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: Actually, I'm not trying to be mindful.
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: I actually am. And it's well, and I think it's
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: gotten easier for me to mind you know, the rights
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: in a huz because I'm just relaxing more into like
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: feeling good about doing the podcast. I don't get as
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: nervous like I used to get really nervous. Guys, I've
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: never done this before. Come on now, I mean I
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: knew you had been putting yourself out there for.
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: Well on social media. Yeah, but I've never done like
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: a long format like free flow, because this is none
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: of this is scripto. We're just I do have some
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: notes on my phone, but like that's just for not
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: reading verbatim.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: That's just because we're forty three year old women and
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: we have brain fog and we have to have some
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: guidance and peri MetOp. Yeah. So today we are going
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: to talk about plant based medicines that can help with
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: things like PTSD and CPTSD and CPTSD.
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: Yes, so PTSD is post traumatic stress disorder. C PTSD
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: is complex post traumatic stress disorder.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: Talk about the differences.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: First, PTSD is generally seen when we have someone who's
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: experienced some shock trauma. We see it like with combat bets,
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: and so they have symptoms that are more in line
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: with flashbacks and nightmares and things like that. CPTSD is
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: complex post traumatic stress disorder, which is is what happens
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: to the brain when someone has had prolonged and complex trauma.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: So it's not just like a one time shot trauma.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: It's like emotional abuse, manipulation, you know, sexual abuse. There
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: could be you know, some shock traumas in there, but
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: there's also a lot of you know, just complex relational
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: trauma that we see. And so I had a diagnosis
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: of CPTSD, I do not think I would meet the
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: criteria for that anymore. It very much overlaps with fearful
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: avoidant attachment. Majority of folks I meet with fearful avoidance
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: have had a diagnosis of CPTSD, or probably should.
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: I've ever had the diagnosis, but I'm pretty sure I haven't.
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: Just one of those things. And so what do you
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: get from complex post traumatic stress disorder, anxiety, sleep problems,
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: the unique health problems that we've talked about, all the
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: gut skin, brain, endocrine potential issues, migraines, anxiety, depression. We
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: can sometimes see like OCD type behaviors being woven in
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: their brain fog brain fog, working memory issues, executive dysfunction
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: ADHD type symptoms. In fact, so many people have complex
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: PTSD and they're diagnosed with ADHD and it's not really
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: organic ADHD, it's actually CPTSD, which if they treated it
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: as CPTSD instead of ADHD, they would probably get a
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: lot better. But that is just one conversation.
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: That's okay, episode, I guess.
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: So I want to start with cannabis.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, let's talk about it.
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: So this is controversial, first and foremost, I want to
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: make a strong statement that this is not clinical or
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: medical advice. Do not start using any substance without talking
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: to your doctor and getting approval from your doctor.
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: There, Yes, okay, covered.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: I am not trying to tell you to go use
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  Speaker 2: cannabis or magic mushrooms psilocybin, which is what we're going
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: to talk about today. But I'm a scientist and I'm like, man,
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: these are plans. Yeah, she means that God made them right.
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: And of course, you know God said be a sober mind.
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: But what God means by that because there's a lot
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: of people in the Bible that are drinking wine and whatnot, right,
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  Speaker 2: So obviously God's not completely opposed to engaging in these
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: things that alter wine alter yeah, alter your consciousness somewhat.
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  Speaker 2: But what it means is you can't get to the
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: point where you're not where you're susceptible to the kingdom
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: of darkness, so where you can't make good decisions, or
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: where it becomes an idol in your life or it
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  Speaker 2: rules over you. Right. So we're talking about addiction, We're
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: talking about over use, We're talking about all of those.
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: Things, right, masking pain.
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: I am talking about medical use. Right again, ask your doctor.
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: Right, you're from opinion, right.
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: Say this is my opinion, and this is my summary
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: of the science. I am not telling you to go
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  Speaker 2: use these things. Can we please just be very clear
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  Speaker 2: about that.
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  Speaker 1: I don't wish I was a medical doctor. Time out
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: for just because we were just talking about this the
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: other day. But I thought, how cool would it have
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: been if I was a doctor, because my name would
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: be doctor Butcher, like a plastic surgeon. Like that's kind
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: of a scary name for a plastic surgeon, but what
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: a cool doctor name. Okay, Okay, to go back to
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: what you're okay saying.
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: So, the endocannabinoid system in the in the body is
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: a set of receptors, and interesting, why would we have
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: an endocannabinoid receptor if we're never supposed to ever use cannabis.
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: It's interesting.
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: That's just a question. I'm not saying we should use cannabis.
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: I'm just saying interesting that we have one.
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: Right explain it because I've never even thought of that.
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: An acannabinoid system in the body is responsible for homeostasis.
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: So it's its job is to actively try to bring
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: homeostasis into your body throughout all systems. From what I
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: understand it, I think there's probably a little more complex
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: than that. That's a very, very watered down definition of
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: the endocannabinoid system, but it can regulate things like pain
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: and oh my gosh, there's so many different places that
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: you have endocannabinoid receptors. Okay, so we have a ton
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: of science on chronic pain in cannabis. That's positive. And
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: after having seen my dad lose his mind and his
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: health over opiates and lost my ex husband to alcohol
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: and opiates a combined overdose accidental overdose, I am very
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: anti opiate. We have a huge We are like the
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: nation's like opiate overdose capital of the world in Kentucky,
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: and it is you can't find someone that has not
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: been affected by the opiate crisis in Kentucky. So if
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: you ask me, would you rather someone take opiates or
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  Speaker 2: smoke cannabis or use cannabis gummies or whatever. One hundred
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  Speaker 2: percent cannabis, one hundred percent cannabis, and it is medically
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  Speaker 2: legal in Kentucky now, which is really great. And I
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  Speaker 2: do give props to our governor Andebush here, even though
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: I don't agree with everything Andebisher does or says, I
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: give him props for bringing that medical solution, especially for
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: our veterans who deal with long term pain in PTSD.
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  Speaker 2: So I just want to focus on some research that
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: shows very positive findings for cannabis use and PTSD and CPTSD.
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  Speaker 2: So this is for trauma, and so many people obviously
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  Speaker 2: that we work with have attachment trauma, and attachment trauma
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  Speaker 2: is trauma. It's trauma in the brain and the nervous system.
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  Speaker 2: We know that. So I'm just gonna I wrote some
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  Speaker 2: notes down about some more recent research, you know, from
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  Speaker 2: twenty eight, twenty nineteen into the twenty twenties on cannabis
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  Speaker 2: and PTSD. So we have von Miller at all twenty
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  Speaker 2: twenty the Long Term Perspective Therapeutic Impact of Cannabis on
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  Speaker 2: Post Traumatic Stress Disorder in the Journal of Cannabis and
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: Cannabinoid Research. They had one hundred and fifty participants with
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  Speaker 2: PTSD followed over one year, and they followed users versus
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: non users. So this was not a randomized controlled trial.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: So there's a little bit of whenever we don't have
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  Speaker 2: a randomized controlled trial, let me just break this basic
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  Speaker 2: scientific concept down. Randomized controlled trials use what's called random assignment.
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: That's where the randomized piece comes in. And random assignment
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  Speaker 2: randomly chooses who's in what condition. You're in the placebo
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: group or you're in the active medication group. Okay, so
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: you're not as the researcher. You're not like, hey, you buddy,
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: you go over here. It's like a lottery system. So,
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: and what that does is that any individual differences between
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: people that could affect the outcome are likely to appear
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: equally in both groups. That is what random assignment achieves
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: in science. Got so then we have a control group.
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  Speaker 2: So the controlled aspect of randomized controlled is you have
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  Speaker 2: a true place ebo, so you have something to compare
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: the active medication group to somebody who got nothing right,
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: which allows us to isolate the effect of the medication. Right. Yeah,
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: you would have learned this in psychology and you would
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: have learned that in research methods, and so our cts
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: are our gold standard research. But not every thing can
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: be measured with an RCT, like I think about.
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: In this case, it would need to be.
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: It would need to be, or it could be. But
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: also RCTs are very expensive and very time consuming. So
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: a lot of times we want to get data like
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: prospective data or you know, non randomized data. You know,
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: we might want to look at other types of research
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: studies that were less expensive and less time consuming to
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: see if it's valuable to go ahead and invest in
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: doing an RCT. So that's why we don't see just RCTs.
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: They're expensive, time consuming, very hard to get approved through
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: internal review board, there's a lot of red tape, etc.
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: So one hundred and fifty participants users versus non users.
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: The finding was that cannabis users showed greater decrease in
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: PTSD symptoms severity over time. They were two point five
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: seven times more likely to no longer meet PTSD criteria
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: at the end of the study. So in real world
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: use cannabis was associated with meaningful improvement in PTSD diagnoses
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: status over time. Listen, I know this is going to
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: be controversial because I know a lot of people have
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: always been told cannabis is a gateway drug. It's not.
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: The data doesn't support that. I'm not talking about recreational
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: cannabis use here, I'm talking about medical cannabis use. Okay,
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: So again, supervised by a physician, prescribed by a physician,
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: dosed by a physician, all of that stuff. Okay, Although
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: that particular study just looked at people using it in
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: real time, not in a medical diagnostic way or or
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: medical use way. We have Elms and Shannon twenty nineteen.
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: Cannabis and the Management of PTSD a systematic review. Systematic
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: reviews are great because they look at it's a scientific
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: methodology that condenses the research that we have. So it
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: really looks at like a bunch of literature reviews and
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: looks at, okay, what are the main themes of the
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: scientific literature in this area, and the method in which
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: you pick what study goes into the review has a
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: scientific methodology to it, so we're not just pulling random studies.
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: They have to meet really strict criteria to be included
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: in the systematic kind of summer and they summarize it. Right.
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: So several observational studies reported cannabis use was significantly a
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: soociated with reduction in overall PTSD symptoms and improved quality
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: of life or what we call QOL in psychology. Seventy
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: seven point two percent reduction in symptoms.
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: Wow, that's substantial.
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: Substantial, ross at all. Twenty twenty two Medical cannabis for
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: treatment resistant combat PTSD in Frontiers of Psychiatry. This sample
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: used veterans with combat PTSD that was treatment resistant. I
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: mean they've tried everything, They've thrown the kitchen sink at it,
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: and these people still can't function. Okay. Over sixty five
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: percent experienced at least a twenty percent reduction in PTSD symptoms.
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: Nearly eighty percent reported improvement in sleep and quality duration.
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: The takeaways In very challenging cases, medical cannabis was associated
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: with meaningful symptom relief, especially sleep, in a majority of participants.
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: Cannabis is interesting. I don't want to devalue that one,
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: because that is that is huge. Go back to that
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: one for just a second. Okay, So for veterans that's
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: it all. Yeah, So for veterans who had basically tried everything.
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: Else, all the antidepressants, all the benzodiazepines, all the therapy,
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: emdr everything in this study, they threw the kitchen sink
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: at it. I mean it's treatment resistant. They were not
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: able to find a treatment that relieved their symptoms.
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: And how much of a reduction in symptoms twenty.
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: Percent reduction and eighty percent improvement in sleep.
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: That's huge, It's huge. Yeah. The sleep component is sleep component.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: If you have ever had chronic insomnia, and I have
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: in my life, it will ruin you. It will wreck you.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: It will wreck you.
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's the foundation of everything.
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: I am not going to judge one person that takes
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: them a little gummy to go to sleep again. Why
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: do we have no cannabinoids and why does cannot sleep cannabis?
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: Why is it a plant that's accessible, that grows in
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: the wild.
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: When you take doesn't cause compounding others?
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: You can't overdose from cannabis. You can't unless a bail
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: of it falls on your head. You cannot overdose. Can
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: you take too much and feel awful? Yes, that's why
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: your doctor needs to dose it out for you. That's
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: why you don't. You're not left up to your own devices.
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: Okay, the less time, but when was the lesson which
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: I'm just throwing this out there. Of course I don't
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: know any of the science, but when was the last
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: time somebody used cannabis and then needed another medication on
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: top of that to deflect a symptom or a side
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: side effect. They were happening, not that.
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: I know of. But again, when you're talking about medical use,
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: you're talking about people being very intentional about your dosing
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: and how much you're using. Because of course we can
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: see problems when people overuse. In recreational use, we can
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: see problems, right, So don't come at me, all right,
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: and if you do, you can go look at these studies.
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: Let's see CPTSD, Cannabis and Complex post Traumatic stress Disorder
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: and narrative re View with consideration of benefits and harms.
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: What they found. This review looked at how cannabis use
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: intersects with CPTSD symptoms and improvement in things like affect dysregulation,
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: negative self concept, and relational disturbances. CPTSD sufferers report relief
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: and symptoms of anxiety, insomnia, and nightmares for those that
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: had overuse. So again we're talking about overuse, not medical use,
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: but those who were clearly overusing, they were at risk
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: for dissociation dependency, and relational avoidance. So again, with most
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: things in life, guys, moderation is going to be key. Right.
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: You can if you're smoking cannabis all day every day,
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: it's probably not gonna be a good thing, right, You're
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: going to zone out. So but I think what we
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: can learn from the science is where can we optimize
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: it for things like pain relief and sleep and integration
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: of trauma versus when we start to see too much
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: use and we start to get the downhill curve where
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: we might get negative side effects. Okay. Title Cannabis assisted
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: Psychotherapy for Complex Dissociative and Trauma Related Disorders in Frontiers
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: of Psychiatry in twenty twenty three. They found in trauma
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: populations including PTSD and CPTSD, cannabis assisted psychotherapy was reported
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: to help with flashbacks in nightmares and it shows clinical
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: implementation for the early stage in CPTSD research specifically. So
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: we're seeing small early effects of help in CPTSD.
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: Okay, So as the long term research just not there.
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: It's not there yet.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: Okay, it's not there yet.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: It makes sense because the government blocked cannabis research when
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: it was considered an illegal.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: Dreads and what's considered long term research anyway, like years wise, decades.
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, decades, Yeah, ten plus years at least at the
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: least at least. Yeah, we want to see ten plus
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: years of data.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So it makes sense because medical marijuana has only
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: been on the scene.
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: For it's not even in all fiby states.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not there.
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: It's not there, Like Tennessee is illegal still in Kentucky
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: just implemented it two years ago. Okay, let's go to psilocybin.
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: So Psilocybin is the main ingredient in magic mushrooms, which
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: again grow from the earth. There are some theories in
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: evolutionary psychology that our ancestors eight magic mushrooms and it
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: expanded parts of our brain that made us more intelligent
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: and more creative, and that that was part of the
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: developmental process of humans.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: Interesting. Interesting, right, very interesting.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: Again, consult your doctor. Don't go on a mushroom trip
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: without consulting your doctor. And in fact, most of this
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: research that I'm going to talk about talks about guided
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: psilocybin right trips yep. So you are with a therapeutic provider.
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: They are dosing it effectively. They have a trained psychotherapist,
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: trauma informed therapist. They're with you, that is guiding this experience, right, Okay,
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: so you're not just like in your basement, right, gobbling
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: up magic measures. Okay, let's be let's speak, let's be clear.
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: Self treatment so okay, self treatment of depression and complex
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: post traumatic stress disorder with psilocybin A retrospective case study.
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: What does that mean?
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: It means they looked at some but one person who
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: did it in the past. Okay, So this is a
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: case study. It's it's the it's weaker research. But again
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: it formulates the foundation to say we need more research.
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: If we see positive things in case studies and an
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: observational research, then we can we can make the case
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: like let's get a grant, let's try to fund a
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: clinical trial.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: This is so interesting because here's the irony. If I've
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: read this stuff, my brain would just go, it would
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: flat line, like because I wouldn't be able to like
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: cognitively break it down.
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: So it's really interesting to have you break.
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because I'm a trained scientist, right, Yeah, And I
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: think that's what I want people to know. I'm a scientist,
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: I'm not a clinician. I'm a coach. I'm a scientist.
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: I look at science. I work from the science, and
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: I can break down science.
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: I'm not a clinician. I'm not going to diagnose you.
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: I don't do any clinical diagnoses. I refer out for that.
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: If I think I see a narcissist, I say, you
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: need to go to see a clinical psychologist.
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: AnyWho, And you're a great teacher.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: Okay, So this is a case study, a retrospective case study,
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: just meaning they looked back in time young person with
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: complex PTSD used to psilocybin informally in reporting meaningful changes
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: and anxiety, depression, and trauma related symptoms. It matters. Even
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: though it's very limited evidence, it suggests that psychedelics might
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: affect CPTSD symptoms positively, and again was part of making
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: the case for more research. Okay, So we have to
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: when it comes to science, we have to start really,
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: really small and see the need to go bigger because
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: a lot of this is funded by the government. Sure,
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: so the government's not just going to give out money
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: for no reason, basically text or maybe they do. I
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: guess maybe they do. I don't want to let's not
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: talk about that. Yeah, Okay, JK. They do give out
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: money to a lot of things. But whatever for a
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: different episode. Okay. The Journal of Psychopharmacology, which is a
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: fantastic journal, in twenty twenty four, so recent research mechanisms
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: of psilocybin on the treatment of post traumatic stress disorder.
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: What they found? The study explored how psilocybin works for PTSD,
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: including fear extinction, memory reconsolidation, and emotional processing. Well, not
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: explicitly a study yet for CPTSD, the mechanisms are relevant
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: and gives a theoretical backing for how psychedelics might help
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: more complex trauma.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: Okay, okay, break it down. Break that down, like what what?
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: Okay? Essentially what I understand? And again, I am not
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: an expert in this this. I'm an expert in attachment
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: theory and romantic relationships. I am not an expert on
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: psilocybin for CPTSD, right, somebody else is, though, I'm just looking.
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: I'm an expert in how to conduct research too. So
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: I can read these studies and I can understand their merit,
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: like I can understand the difference between a case study
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: and a large randomized control trial, right that.
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: Okay, so you can tell us what you gather from it.
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: Right, So when we look at fear extinction, when we
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: have had complex trauma PTSD and complex trauma in larger amygdala,
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: which is in the middle of your brain, it's in
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: your limbic system, it's your fear anger and threat detection center.
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: Fear and anger come from your amygdala. Okay, I mean
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: it's a very simplistic expert That is a very simplistic explanation. Okay,
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: other brain regions also can be involved, caveat, But fear
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: extinction is essentially sort of like using this psilocybin component
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: of magic mushrooms, which is like that active ingredient, to
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: potentially shrink the activity in the amygdala, so to extinguish fear,
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: to tamp down the amygdala, to say, hey, buddy, you know,
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: settle down, settle down. So memory reconsolidation has to do
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: with the fact that traumatic memories are encoded differently into
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: the brain than regular memories, and memory and emotion can
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: be very attached together, and then memory recall can elicit
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: the emotional re experiencing of trauma, and that's very prominent
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: in PTSD and can be a component of CPTSD. So
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: essentially therapy is like emdr try to break that connection
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: between the memory and the emotion tied to it, and
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: so psilocybin can essentially help take those memories that are
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: very tied to the emotional felt experience of the trauma
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: and reconsolidate them or deconstruct them, to re encode them
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: differently in the brain so that you might be able
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: to think about your trauma without having the same emotional reaction, okay.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: And then emotional processing, which much we just did an
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: episode on it can assist in people being able to
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: sit with the experience of the trauma as it is
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: appearing somatically or in the body, which is required for
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: processing and integration into the psyche. And that's what last
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: week's episode was all about. So essentially, a lot of
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: places like Colorado and I think it's they're trying to
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: get the lost past in Kentucky for what I understand.
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: From what I understand, they're trying to get these lost
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: past in Kentucky. For psilocybin treatment, you go to a
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: retreat center, medical center, they dose it out, They put
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: you in a stimulus free environment, so you're like blindfold
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: or do you have your plugs and then you have
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: a guide, so somebody that can gently speak to you
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: through your headphones and sort of like allow you to
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: experience your trauma and you're under the influence of the psilocybin.
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: And what people report is that they're able to have
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: like a bird's eye view of their trauma, so they're
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: able to see like the deeper meaning behind it and
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: the positive benefits of it, and they're able to step
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: back and sort of see that.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: It's the release of the egos.
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like a release of the ego. They're able
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: to see that maybe I was holding onto this too tightly,
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: maybe this was interfering with my life too much, Maybe
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: I was giving it too much power in my life.
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: And when they're able to sort of really zoom out,
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: that's what they kind of report being able to experience.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: Lauren September, who is on one of our episodes. I
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: don't think she would care at all that I shared this,
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: but you know, she went to a guided retreat center
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: in North Carolina and did not psilocybin. But I again
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: not again.
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: Astual Ganda, yeah, or not ash Ganda Gosha. So that's
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: another ayahuasca is.
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: It's another type of motion.
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: It's a moderator. So it's the other one that you
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: just said, ayahuasca, don't you puke when you do that? Yeah,
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: I mean she had a full on she had a
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: full on experience. I'm not going to speak for her
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: in terms of what the experience was, but I know
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: that one thing that she said that was extremely profound
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: was it really challenged her ego. So she was able
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: to just how you described it, just then it was
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: almost like she had this bird's eye view of her life. Yep.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: And it.
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: Completely changed her changed her brain like changed like she
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: just came out of that, Like I knew her before
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: that experience and after on a deep level, night and day,
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: totally different person. Interesting, and she got sober, that's when
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: she after that, she was able to get completely sober.
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: That's amazing. Yeah, because I think she she.
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: Struggled with alcohol. She struggled with alcohol for a long time,
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: and she's now been sober for over three years. That's amazing.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: I'm so proud of her. Yeah.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: So I think we have a lot of really interesting
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: studies on this, and I have some more. Let me
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: let me just read some more and then we'll wrap up.
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm curious love.
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: A study on psilocybin for trauma related disorders in twenty
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: twenty three found that in aumatized AID survivors, psilocybin assisted
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: therapy reduced PTSD symptoms, attachment, anxiety, demoralization, and improved self
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: compassion and connection.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: I love that A.
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: Review in Clinical Conceptualization of PTSD in Psilocybin treatment. A
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: study in twenty twenty four suggested psilocybin attenuates hyperreactivity in
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: trauma brain circuits and enhances emotional regulation in CPTSD. Emotional
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: dysregulation is a huge component of CPTSD. Again, you're living
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: in fight flight free spawn well, and I know that
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: you know, or functional free residual effects of you know.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: I mean these are people also that have been have
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: had some addictive issues with opiates or alcohol, you know.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: And I know those are other studies that you don't
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: have in front of you, but I know that there's
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: some research in.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: That area of addiction for sure. Okay, therapeutic role of
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: psiloicide and m d M A Okay, now again, m
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: d M A if in my opinion, if it has
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: to be made in a lab and you have to
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: access together. I had a follow up question about out. Yeah,
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: so they tested psilocybin and m d M A and
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: what is that is that?
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: Kenn of meine.
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: M d M A is ecstasy?
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: Oh you're right, okay, right, it's molly, Yeah it is.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: Okay, yep, never used it. I have no idea, but
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: no comment.
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah I was a good I was a good no comment.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: So, but but psilocybin was shown to give rapid and
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: sustained relief of symptoms of trauma related disorders.
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: Interesting.
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: So bottom line, psychedelics may offer may offer deeper potential
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: relief for c PTSD and PTSD symptoms even in relational
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: attachment and self concept domain.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: I'll be really interested to see the long term research
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: get over the next few decades too of what happens
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: not just you know, with trauma based issues, but even
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: like medical and physical based issues.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Like I'm not anti. I mean I think antidepressants
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: and stuff can be life saving for people, and even
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: benzodiazepins can be life saving for people, even though they
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: have high side effect rates and high addictive tendency rates,
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: and there can be a lot of withdrawal symptoms. You know,
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: everybody might need something a little bit different but if
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: we're looking at the plants that God made, Like, to me,
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: that's like, thank you God for these like little gifts,
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: right that, when used appropriately, can potentially give people a
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: ton of relief, a ton of healing, and.
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: So and I just loved thinking about like where that
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: could lead, you know, because obviously, you know, cannabis and
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: psilocybin aren't the only plant based medicines out there.
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: There's a plethora.
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: There's a plethora, and I don't think we've really even
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: discovered them. So I just I didn't know what's talk
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: about today.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: And I thought that was really interesting. Personally, I thought
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: it was interesting. I would love to even have you
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: look even further and break down the science, because of
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: course my brain's just never going to read through that
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: and be like, oh gosh, yeah this is really registering it.
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: But when you break it down, it does register and
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: it makes it a lot more interesting. And so hopefully
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: you guys found it interesting too. So you know, it
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: would be really really interesting to have an actual researcher
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: on who's in the throes of.
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: Like to do that. So maybe that we got to
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: find somebody, we got to track them down, because I mean,
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: I truly believe. If you listen to two episodes ago
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: with Ashley, I truly believe God can restore you from
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: head to toe. But not all does it. Not everybody
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: is going to heal completely, and not everybody's going to
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: heal all at once. And I'm wondering, I'm.
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: Just it's not linear.
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: I'm just wondering if God's like, but I made this, Yeah,
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: like but I but I put it here for you, right,
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: just like he put essential oils or he puts alovira
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: or I'm just.
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: And it's just a piece, right, Like, it's just a piece.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: It's a piece. It's a tool not to be abused,
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: not to be overused, but as a as a therapeutic.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: Tool, right right, It's a piece to the puzzle. And
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: it's just interesting, it is, it's very interesting.
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: So you know.
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: Another piece to the puzzle, of course, can be doctor
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: Hinsley and her services, and if you would like to
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: check any of those out, please go visit her at
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: the lovedoc dot com or you can find her on
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: any social well TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube. The podcast also
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: has our own social media now we're trying to grow that,
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: so go follow the.
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: Love, Instagram and Facebook. We are trying so far, trying
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: to grow the pod YouTube. Yeah, our YouTube is just
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: about the pod.
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: Yep it is, and so please go follow her, check
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: out her services. Keep tuning in. We have so much
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: to come for season two. We are only just what like,
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: barely halfway through. Yeah, so, and I think I was
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: thinking about the other day, episode forty eight and season
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: two will be our one hundredth episode and we're just
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: gonna have like a really big celebration. We're gonna have
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: some balloons and stuff. So I think that'll be a
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: lot of fun. So guys, keep tuning in. We love
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: you all, and until next time, peace, love, and perspective.