Latest / The You Project / #1713 Scamming The Scammers - David Gillespie

Transcript

#1713 Scamming The Scammers - David Gillespie · The You Project

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Speaker 1: I'll get a team. Welcome to another installment of your
0:02
Speaker 1: favorite show, with your favorite people. David, John Ken, Patrick Gillespie,
0:06
Speaker 1: Tiffany and Margaret, Woman of Veronica. Two dogs, cook cloak cookie.
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Speaker 2: Good they two dogs?
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Speaker 1: Are you all right?
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Speaker 2: I'm great?
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Speaker 3: Thanks great?
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Speaker 1: Great, dog's good, dog good, cat good, motorbike good.
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Speaker 2: Everything's good.
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Speaker 1: To get rid of the cat, the motorbike or the dog.
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Speaker 1: What would go first?
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Speaker 2: One of them? None of them? We all live homeless
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Speaker 2: on food stamps. If we had two meat, the cat,
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Speaker 2: the dog and the motorbike.
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Speaker 1: A food stamp still a thing.
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Speaker 3: I don't know.
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Speaker 4: They never were in Australia, but I think they are
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Speaker 4: in the US.
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Speaker 1: Yeah. I think you've been watching too many Disney movies. Tiff. Hello,
0:44
Speaker 1: Professor Gillespie, how are you?
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Speaker 2: Yeah?
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Speaker 3: Good? Good to be here.
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Speaker 4: I got to ask that last time we talked, Tiff
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Speaker 4: had bought an accessory for her bike to make it
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Speaker 4: really really noisy.
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Speaker 3: Has that being now fitted? Tiff?
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Speaker 2: It's been fitted. It's so good. I am so obsessed.
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Speaker 2: Now you've got no idea, David. We'll talk about it later.
1:03
Speaker 1: No, talk about it, talk about it now, because I
1:05
Speaker 1: want people to know what I have to contend with.
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Speaker 4: So you're frustrated at writing around on the equivalent of
1:12
Speaker 4: a singer sewing machine, and now it's a singer sewing
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Speaker 4: machine that sounds like a Harley is it?
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Speaker 3: It really is?
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Speaker 2: And it's like I can't even describe. It has transformed
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Speaker 2: my relationship with the bike. I cannot ride it enough.
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Speaker 1: There aren't too many women that I know that are
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Speaker 1: I mean, in fact, you might be the only one
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Speaker 1: that's totally enamored with a motorbike that's loud and obnoxious.
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Speaker 2: So how good is it?
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Speaker 1: Though? It is good? It is good. It does sound
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Speaker 1: I mean, but I'm a bogan.
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Speaker 4: So you're going to have to get a sound clip
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Speaker 4: and edit it in here, Tiff, so that people know
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Speaker 4: what we're talking about.
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Speaker 2: I'll go give it a few revs. Maybe next week
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Speaker 2: I'll get out on it, give it a few revs,
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Speaker 2: and pop it in for the listeners.
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Speaker 1: You could just go out record it to your phone.
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Speaker 1: Could you do that? Could you literally record it on
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Speaker 1: your phone and insert it into this episode.
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Speaker 3: I could do that.
2:06
Speaker 1: I could do it, Tiff. Let's hear your motorbike now, boom,
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Speaker 1: And that was TIFF's motorbike. Everyone I've just created some
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Speaker 1: more work for every woman listens to the show will
2:29
Speaker 1: be like, not every woman, but a lot will be like,
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Speaker 1: I don't get it.
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Speaker 2: I didn't get it.
2:35
Speaker 1: What didn't you get? What do you get now? Sorry, David,
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Speaker 1: this is really this is very inappropriate. But what do
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Speaker 1: you get now that you didn't get?
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Speaker 2: Well, I didn't get how much it was going to
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Speaker 2: change the entire riding experience, not just the ah Everyone's
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Speaker 2: back bokes louder than mine. And I'm on a Junomi
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Speaker 2: sewing machine. Well, I go the long way home. I
3:01
Speaker 2: couldn't be bothered getting it, getting it unpacked, to bring
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Speaker 2: it fifteen minutes to the gym before. Now, I, oh,
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Speaker 2: I don't know something, something happens. It's very visceral. It's
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Speaker 2: it's the sound, it's the feeling. Do you know what.
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Speaker 2: I've got a comms unit the communications for other writers,
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Speaker 2: and I don't like it because it takes me away
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Speaker 2: from the presence of the sensation of the whole bike experience.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I know what, I know what you're talking about.
3:27
Speaker 4: You know my first car was a Gemini, Yeah, which
3:34
Speaker 4: was a you know, it's a single sewing routine with
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Speaker 4: four wheels. And it it became a lot faster and
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Speaker 4: better when I went and bought some speech stripes and
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Speaker 4: put you stuck them down the side of it.
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Speaker 1: It's it's it's an indictment on you that you owned
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Speaker 1: a Gemini and but that you are brave enough to
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Speaker 1: say that you are under Gemini a long time ago.
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Speaker 1: Although back the day they were they were kind of okay.
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Speaker 4: It wasn't that kind of Gemini. It was a blue
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Speaker 4: nurse's car. So it was a lovely hell blue.
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Speaker 1: That kind of baby powder blue. All right, Now, we're
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Speaker 1: not here to talk about bloody motorbikes or forty year
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Speaker 1: old Geminis. We're here to talk about the things that
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Speaker 1: you've been sticking your nose into, because you fucking stick
4:24
Speaker 1: your nose in a lot of places.
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Speaker 4: You do.
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Speaker 1: You do open doors that nobody asked you to open.
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Speaker 1: Let's just say that. But you do it with gay
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Speaker 1: abandon You just you just throw it open and just
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Speaker 1: cartwheel in there. And so one of that. By the way, everyone,
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Speaker 1: David who please help him get some more followers on
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Speaker 1: buddy LinkedIn. He's up to two thousand, but my nana's
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Speaker 1: on two and a half thousand and she's dead. So
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Speaker 1: if you could give him, if you could give him
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Speaker 1: a chop out, follow him on LinkedIn. And also, if
4:56
Speaker 1: you're not a member or if you're not following on
4:59
Speaker 1: the You Project podcast facebook page where he posts every
5:04
Speaker 1: second or third one of his articles, jump in there.
5:07
Speaker 1: Also follow on there. But you put up something this
5:10
Speaker 1: week around an AI kind of let's call it a
5:15
Speaker 1: resource that was developed. Do you want to I won't.
5:18
Speaker 1: I won't spoil the I won't spoil the show. Tell
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Speaker 1: us what was developed and what it's for.
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Speaker 3: Okay.
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Speaker 4: So O two, which is a British telecommunications company, decided
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Speaker 4: that rather than just blocking scammer numbers as they're coming
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Speaker 4: through their servers, they would prefer to waste the scammer's time,
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Speaker 4: figuring that that's actually a more powerful this incentive to
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Speaker 4: phone scammers because just blocking their numbers just means that
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Speaker 4: the computer moves on to the next number, and you know,
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Speaker 4: they haven't really harmed the scammer at all. So what
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Speaker 4: they developed was an AI that imitates your grant and
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Speaker 4: this AI will have a really lengthy conversation with anyone
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Speaker 4: that rings them, and it's really interesting. I think you've
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Speaker 4: got some audio here, Tiff, and I whack it in
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Speaker 4: because listening to this is your You're now going to
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Speaker 4: listen to the actual AI having a real conversation with
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Speaker 4: real phone scammers.
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Speaker 5: So w is than a dot And then DoD, I
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Speaker 5: think you're perfectly bothering people, right.
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Speaker 6: I'm just trying to have a little chat. Gosh, how
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Speaker 6: time flying. It's showing me a picture of my cat Fluffy.
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Speaker 1: It's showing you the picture of your cat Fluffy. It's
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Speaker 1: not calling med stupid.
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Speaker 6: Got it, dear, because while they're busy talking to me,
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Speaker 6: they can't be scamming you. And let's face it, Dear,
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Speaker 6: I've got all the time in the world.
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Speaker 3: So you know, she's got a bit of a sense
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Speaker 3: of humor as well.
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Speaker 4: You know that one fellow saying has been nearly an hour,
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Speaker 4: and she's saying, oh, how time flies. So it's an
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Speaker 4: interesting approach to the problem in that they figured, well,
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Speaker 4: we haven't just got one grannie we can put on
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Speaker 4: the phone. You know, got one AI grannie, You've got
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Speaker 4: a billion of them, so you know, run them all simultaneously.
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Speaker 4: And so that's their plan, is to just waste the
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Speaker 4: scammer's time and clog up their calling networks with conversations
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Speaker 4: with not very real grannies.
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Speaker 1: Is is it? It must be bloody great AI. If
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Speaker 1: they can keep someone on the phone for an hour
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Speaker 1: thinking that they're actually having a real conversation with the
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Speaker 1: real person.
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Speaker 4: Well, they've got a strong motivation to stay on the phone.
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Speaker 4: So you're remembering that, you know, it's a fairly unrewarding job,
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Speaker 4: I guess, in the sense that you know, ninety nine
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Speaker 4: percent of people have to speak hang up with it
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Speaker 4: in the first second. So they want to stay on
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Speaker 4: the phone. They want to think that they're making progress.
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Speaker 4: They want to talk to someone and see if they
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Speaker 4: can get them too interested in what they're doing. And
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Speaker 4: the interesting thing about an AI is that it can adapt.
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Speaker 4: It can have a genuine conversation with you. It can
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Speaker 4: talk to you about what you've said, it can listen
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Speaker 4: to what you've said, it can engage in it. And
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Speaker 4: this one has been told programmed to keep the conversation
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Speaker 4: going whatever it takes. And as you heard from those examples,
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Speaker 4: it was managing to do it for an hour, which now, look,
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Speaker 4: I suspect this is a fairly short term solution and
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Speaker 4: that you know pretty soon these scammers will be AIS themselves,
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Speaker 4: and soe AI is talking to our eyes and no
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Speaker 4: one will waste anyone's time. But I guess a few
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Speaker 4: within megacycles of computing time might go down the drain.
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Speaker 4: But it's an interesting use of AI at the moment,
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Speaker 4: and it shows how far it's gone that you could
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Speaker 4: be talking to what you think as a person in
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Speaker 4: real time and in fact you're.
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Speaker 1: Not getting It's getting harder and harder to identify what
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Speaker 1: is real and what is not. Like I got sent
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Speaker 1: something today through one of the speaking agencies that I
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Speaker 1: do some work for, and I didn't open it, but
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Speaker 1: it looked legit. It was from there, had there had
9:22
Speaker 1: everything that looks like the other emails I get from them,
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Speaker 1: but it had a file to open, which didn't make sense,
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Speaker 1: so I didn't open it. And I'm nine to nine
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Speaker 1: point nine, I'm sent. Sure it was a virus or something,
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Speaker 1: but I just nearly automatically opened it because I've opened
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Speaker 1: things from them many times and it just came in
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Speaker 1: and it's like, oh, there's a file here, blah blah
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Speaker 1: blah about that, and then I read what it was about,
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Speaker 1: and I'm like, what what is What is that, but
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Speaker 1: you I think if you're not ever vigilant, you know
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Speaker 1: we're going to get in trouble because the quality. I mean,
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Speaker 1: there's also some ridiculously terrible kind of you know, scams,
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Speaker 1: but some of them are pretty high level, aren't they.
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Speaker 4: Yeah, But I guess on the flip side of this
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Speaker 4: is it's worth thinking about where it could be useful.
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Speaker 4: If you've got AI capable of holding a reasonable conversation
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Speaker 4: with you, but also with access to a significant amount
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Speaker 4: of data about the organization it works for, then wouldn't
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Speaker 4: you rather be talking to an AI like that than
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Speaker 4: sitting on hold for two days waiting for your bank
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Speaker 4: to talk to you, or for your telcoe to talk
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Speaker 4: to you, or for send a link to talk to you,
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Speaker 4: which is the alternative at the moment, which is press
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Speaker 4: this button and then go on hold for three days.
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Speaker 4: Wouldn't you rather be answered every single time, even if
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Speaker 4: it's by an AI that you can actually have a
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Speaker 4: conversation with and who probably has a pretty good chance
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Speaker 4: of giving you the information you're after.
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Speaker 1: And also you're not talking to anything that gets pissed
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Speaker 1: off or impatient or frustrated or has emotions or is
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Speaker 1: going to judge you or you know.
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Speaker 4: So in the example we just played the grands, they
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Speaker 4: were swearing at her. She's perfectly calm, just keeps the conversation.
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Speaker 1: Going, Yeah, yeah, that is, that is.
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Speaker 3: Yeah.
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Speaker 1: There are a range of applications even with I don't
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Speaker 1: use chat GPT for any of my writing or obviously
11:23
Speaker 1: for my research because it's irrelevant. But sometimes I'll look
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Speaker 1: up something just to see what it says about something
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Speaker 1: I already understand, to see if what they bring up
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Speaker 1: is similar to what I would write or what I
11:37
Speaker 1: would say. And I was thinking the other day about
11:43
Speaker 1: what I call in personal intelligence, like how the ability
11:47
Speaker 1: to be able to you know, understand others, all that communicates,
11:50
Speaker 1: solve problems, work alongside other people, that kind of social intelligence.
11:54
Speaker 1: And I thought, I've never heard the term into personal intelligence.
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Speaker 1: I wonder if it's actually a term and an area
12:02
Speaker 1: of research. And I pulled it up and I said,
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Speaker 1: what is inter personal intelligence? On chat GPAT? And it
12:10
Speaker 1: brought it up and A Blowke wrote a book Come
12:12
Speaker 1: on Boy you forty years ago, whole thesis, whole and
12:16
Speaker 1: a guy at a Harvard a psychologist and a professor,
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Speaker 1: and yeah, it's one of eight kinds of intelligence he describes.
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Speaker 1: But anyways, so it finished, and then at the end,
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Speaker 1: unprompted by me chat, GPT goes, I hope you find
12:29
Speaker 1: that valuable, Craig, because it's interesting because that intersects with
12:32
Speaker 1: your research and probably something you could talk about in
12:36
Speaker 1: your workshops and on your podcast. Like it gave me
12:39
Speaker 1: a whole paragraph of just general advice around how I
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Speaker 1: could potentially use this information in different capacities and context
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Speaker 1: and I didn't ask it any of that. I'm like,
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Speaker 1: this motherfucker has been studying me, like what it's like,
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Speaker 1: it knows me.
12:56
Speaker 4: Well, that's a nice segue to the next bit that
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Speaker 4: we want to talk about, Craig, which is you would
13:01
Speaker 4: have seen the things about Bunnings getting a slap over
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Speaker 4: the wrist with a damp piece of lettuce by the
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Speaker 4: Privacy Commissioner saying, oh, you'ren aughty folks, you shouldn't have
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Speaker 4: done that. And what Bunnings were doing was for three
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Speaker 4: years they ran profiling software in their stores without telling
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Speaker 4: anyone they were doing it. So this was facial recognition
13:27
Speaker 4: and the reason that Bunnings said they were doing it
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Speaker 4: was to because they wanted to identify criminals in known shoplifters,
13:37
Speaker 4: potential trouble makers, etc. In their stores. They say seventy
13:41
Speaker 4: percent of problems in their stores come from a very
13:44
Speaker 4: very small group of people that they would use this
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Speaker 4: software to identify, and the privacy commissioner said, wow, you
13:53
Speaker 4: can't do that. They didn't have a problem with them
13:56
Speaker 4: using the software, they had a problem with them doing
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Speaker 4: it without telling any one. So and this sort of
14:05
Speaker 4: thing is increasingly becoming part of retail. I don't know
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Speaker 4: if you've ever paid close attention to the self checkout
14:13
Speaker 4: kiosks in the supermarket, but if you have, you would
14:15
Speaker 4: have noticed a real time video of yourself operating the machine.
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Speaker 4: And there's no guarantees around any of this stuff, you know.
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Speaker 4: Bunning said, Look, it was deleted as soon as it
14:27
Speaker 4: wasn't a match, like you know, in less than a second,
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Speaker 4: your photo was off the system. No one was keeping anything.
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Speaker 4: And maybe that's true, it probably is, But the fact
14:39
Speaker 4: that it's being recorded at all and is being used
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Speaker 4: for identification, I think gives pause for thought. Because profiling
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Speaker 4: software like that, which well facial recognition software all of
14:51
Speaker 4: us use all the time, use it, probably every morning
14:54
Speaker 4: to unlock your phone every five minutes to unlock your
14:56
Speaker 4: phone and is using facial recognition software. It's used at
14:59
Speaker 4: the airports to you know, get you through customs all
15:04
Speaker 4: that sort of stuff. The question then comes, is it
15:07
Speaker 4: okay for to just be being used everywhere all the time,
15:10
Speaker 4: for us to be able to be identified, particularly in
15:13
Speaker 4: places where it can be matched to other information about us,
15:18
Speaker 4: like our credit card or our Flyby's number, or our
15:22
Speaker 4: rewards number which records every purchase we've ever made, and
15:25
Speaker 4: our preferences, you know, whether we happen to like the
15:28
Speaker 4: full fat milk or the trim All that kind of
15:30
Speaker 4: stuff starts to be then being associated with stuff that
15:34
Speaker 4: can be picked out immediately by software that's automatically identifying you.
15:39
Speaker 4: Because if you all had a number plate stable to
15:41
Speaker 4: your forehead, So how comfortable are we with that? So
15:46
Speaker 4: taking the example that you just gave with chat GPT,
15:49
Speaker 4: what if you you know, you were browsing the women's
15:52
Speaker 4: little Lingerie section at Target as you do, and you know,
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Speaker 4: the facial recognitions software says, oh, it's got an interest
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Speaker 4: in women's.
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Speaker 3: Underwear back again.
16:07
Speaker 4: And pops onto Instagram, does a complete search of Instagram.
16:12
Speaker 4: You know, the reverse image search of Instagram, which your
16:14
Speaker 4: face identifies your Instagram account and then starts popping ads
16:18
Speaker 4: for women's underwear in your Instagram. So that's the sort
16:22
Speaker 4: of thing that can be used commercially and is all
16:26
Speaker 4: doable now with existing technology, And who's to say it isn't.
16:30
Speaker 4: I mean, how did chat GPT know so much about you?
16:33
Speaker 4: He is a good question to ask, But the question
16:38
Speaker 4: is how much of this are we prepared to allow
16:40
Speaker 4: have happening. It's all a bit amusing when it's about
16:43
Speaker 4: your lingerie shopping habits, but it's less amusing when you
16:48
Speaker 4: get a fine in the post for jaywalking at two
16:50
Speaker 4: am and Mount Iseres because you know a camera picked
16:54
Speaker 4: you up, identified your face, I reported you to authorities
16:58
Speaker 4: and sent you a fine. Or when your car, as
17:01
Speaker 4: we've talked before, you know, shoots a letter off to
17:04
Speaker 4: the to the coppers and says, oh, by the way,
17:09
Speaker 4: Harps was doing five k over the limit and he's
17:11
Speaker 4: photographic proof of it.
17:15
Speaker 1: You know, even what you were saying with at Woolworth,
17:19
Speaker 1: I was thinking that because well, where I shop anyway,
17:23
Speaker 1: there's I think there's two cameras, so there's one that
17:26
Speaker 1: is straight on at my face. But then there's one
17:29
Speaker 1: above me where it can see what you're doing. It
17:33
Speaker 1: can see you scanning things. So it's above my head
17:36
Speaker 1: looking at me, scanning things, looking at me taking things
17:40
Speaker 1: out of the basket, scanning them, then putting them into
17:42
Speaker 1: my bag. So it's this kind of overhead view and
17:48
Speaker 1: I think, I mean, honestly, I guess it doesn't bother
17:51
Speaker 1: me because I've never thought about it too much. But no, no,
17:56
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe it's there, but I've never seen this
17:58
Speaker 1: anywhere where it says, by the way, you're being filmed
18:01
Speaker 1: right now.
18:02
Speaker 4: Yeah, And that was the problem that the Privacy Commissioner
18:05
Speaker 4: had with what Bunning's were doing. Like I said, they
18:07
Speaker 4: didn't have a problem with the fact they were doing it.
18:09
Speaker 4: The problem was they didn't tell people they were doing
18:12
Speaker 4: it and give people the opportunity not to consent.
18:16
Speaker 1: So what would be then if they if they told everyone?
18:19
Speaker 1: I mean, what would you do tif if they went, hey,
18:23
Speaker 1: if you shop here, we're going to film you, would
18:25
Speaker 1: you still shop there? I mean probably, I guess. I
18:31
Speaker 1: get like, I know I'm being filmed, but then do
18:33
Speaker 1: we know what they'd do with that footage? David or
18:36
Speaker 1: As the.
18:37
Speaker 3: Big problem isn't it. No, we don't.
18:40
Speaker 4: We know what they say they do with it when
18:42
Speaker 4: the Privacy Commissioner hauls them up before them. But do
18:45
Speaker 4: we really know what they'd do with it and what
18:48
Speaker 4: guarantees we got. And last time when we talked about
18:50
Speaker 4: this with the cars, and this data was being sent
18:54
Speaker 4: off to Chinese and South Korean companies, and there was
18:57
Speaker 4: no explanation as to what was being done with it
19:00
Speaker 4: other than it was being used to train AI's well
19:03
Speaker 4: to do what you know, there's just no real detail
19:07
Speaker 4: about this stuff, and I don't think anyone can with
19:09
Speaker 4: confidence say they know what's being done. I guess that
19:12
Speaker 4: coming back to the question you asked about, would Tiff
19:15
Speaker 4: still go into Bunnings, Well, she might, but I reckon
19:18
Speaker 4: there'd probably be a roaring trade in those face masks
19:20
Speaker 4: things you can buy that make it really, really difficult
19:24
Speaker 4: for these detection softwares to work. So there's these ones
19:28
Speaker 4: that they sort of blur your features. They're still basically
19:32
Speaker 4: see through, but they blur your features and the software
19:35
Speaker 4: struggles with it. They were very very popular in Hong Kong,
19:38
Speaker 4: by the way, during the democracy riots because they knew
19:42
Speaker 4: that this technology was being used there, and so they
19:46
Speaker 4: sold a lot of those masks. You might see a
19:49
Speaker 4: lot of that sort of thing happening if people are
19:52
Speaker 4: being told what's going on and deciding, actually, I'd really
19:56
Speaker 4: rather not be identified. You know, when I go in
19:58
Speaker 4: and buy a lawnmower.
20:00
Speaker 1: I wonder if in some not too distant dystopian future
20:05
Speaker 1: they are selling So they're filming us and then selling
20:09
Speaker 1: that too. I mean, unless there was some commercial upside
20:14
Speaker 1: for them, there'd be no reason for them to record
20:18
Speaker 1: it unless they.
20:19
Speaker 3: Were going to there's a lot of commercial upside.
20:21
Speaker 4: So just just the example I gave you before, where
20:25
Speaker 4: you know, if it noticed that you're hanging around in
20:28
Speaker 4: the lingerer section, then that day not.
20:30
Speaker 1: Just stop saying that. Please, could you find another example,
20:33
Speaker 1: another example? Could it not be the produce section of something?
20:38
Speaker 4: To be really really clear, listeners, I have no evidence
20:43
Speaker 4: to hang around in the lingerie section.
20:45
Speaker 3: It is just a hopothetical.
20:47
Speaker 1: But target do though.
20:49
Speaker 4: But but I guess there's an instant commercial upside to that,
20:55
Speaker 4: which is that information is valuable to an advertiser of
20:58
Speaker 4: lingerie products, and there's other commercial applications as well, because
21:04
Speaker 4: then they've got that information linked to the other things
21:07
Speaker 4: that you purchase, So you may never purchase lingerie, but
21:11
Speaker 4: it now knows something about you that it didn't know before,
21:14
Speaker 4: which it would have only gotten from your purchase history,
21:17
Speaker 4: and so it can cater the advertising to you, It
21:20
Speaker 4: can target things to you, it can sell that targeting information.
21:23
Speaker 4: I'm not suggesting anyone is doing this, It's just possible.
21:28
Speaker 4: And whenever something is possible, there's likely to be someone
21:31
Speaker 4: pushing the envelope.
21:32
Speaker 1: If you look like you wanted to jump in.
21:35
Speaker 2: Well, I feel like, if this, why is this a
21:37
Speaker 2: thing around these sorts of things and not people that
21:41
Speaker 2: are doing child trafficking and pornography, and like, if this
21:45
Speaker 2: sort of stuff exists, is on their better uses than
21:49
Speaker 2: trying to catch someone fucking scanning a roma tomato or
21:52
Speaker 2: something else.
21:56
Speaker 4: It's yeah, it's probably because law enforcement often lags be
22:00
Speaker 4: in terms of its access to technology. And then the
22:03
Speaker 4: other problem is giving these sorts of capabilities to law
22:06
Speaker 4: enforcement is a whole new level as well, in the
22:09
Speaker 4: sense that it's people are almost okay with it if
22:12
Speaker 4: all it's going to happen is they're going to sell
22:14
Speaker 4: you a new pair of shoes with it, but they're
22:17
Speaker 4: less okay with it. If someone who can throw you
22:19
Speaker 4: in the slammer has access to this information.
22:23
Speaker 3: Oh, there is so.
22:24
Speaker 1: Much stuff to sort through with this. All right, let's
22:26
Speaker 1: do one more before we close the Gillespie door. So
22:30
Speaker 1: you wrote an article the other day. Well, there was
22:34
Speaker 1: an article that you commented on from the New York
22:36
Speaker 1: Times called is being busy good for people with ADHD?
22:40
Speaker 3: Yeah?
22:41
Speaker 1: What tell us about that? Because I'm I don't know
22:44
Speaker 1: the answer. I'm suspecting it might be.
22:47
Speaker 4: It is so interesting study, big study done in the
22:51
Speaker 4: United States tracking people over sixteen years to see whether
22:56
Speaker 4: there're ADHD symptoms, you know, stayed the same, got worse,
23:00
Speaker 4: got better, whatever. And what they discovered along the way
23:03
Speaker 4: was that it went in and out with adults, and
23:08
Speaker 4: that the thing that most accurately predicted the ADHD symptoms
23:13
Speaker 4: or the severity of them. And remembering what ADHD is,
23:16
Speaker 4: and that the primary symptom is lack of focus, you know,
23:19
Speaker 4: lack of an ability to focus, particularly in an adult,
23:22
Speaker 4: that can have severe consequences because you can't get anything done.
23:25
Speaker 4: You're a bit study at work and in general. And
23:30
Speaker 4: so they were tracking this and they found it really
23:34
Speaker 4: was affected by how busy you were, So the busier
23:38
Speaker 4: you were, the more you had on the more stress
23:41
Speaker 4: you were under, which is a little bit paradoxical. The
23:44
Speaker 4: more stress you were under, the less likely you were
23:47
Speaker 4: to have ADHD symptoms. So and in fact, for many people,
23:51
Speaker 4: the more stress they became, the more likely they were
23:53
Speaker 4: to be completely in remission from those symptoms. So that's
23:58
Speaker 4: an interesting finding and it backs up some other things
24:00
Speaker 4: that we've talked about sort of over many episodes, which
24:03
Speaker 4: is find a way to generate dopamine if what you
24:08
Speaker 4: want to do is address ADHD symptoms. ADHD is a
24:11
Speaker 4: lack of dopamine. You do not have enough dopamine to
24:14
Speaker 4: keep you focused. And the definition of enough is what
24:18
Speaker 4: your brain says is enough, and the level of that
24:21
Speaker 4: is dependent on how addicted or stressed you are. The
24:24
Speaker 4: higher your addiction or stress levels, the higher it says
24:27
Speaker 4: you need. And so even a normal level in someone
24:30
Speaker 4: else is not enough to keep you focused. So the
24:33
Speaker 4: way ADHD medication works is to give you a dopamine spike.
24:36
Speaker 4: They're stimulants, so not that people would be prescribing it,
24:39
Speaker 4: but you could give someone cocaine. It will give them
24:41
Speaker 4: a dopa meane spike, and it will fix their dopamines
24:44
Speaker 4: their ADHD symptoms. So the interesting thing is this is
24:49
Speaker 4: entirely predictable, which is make someone busy, make them really
24:54
Speaker 4: really have to focus, have to stay on task all
24:57
Speaker 4: the time, they're having to generate their own dopamine because
25:00
Speaker 4: they're so busy. Put them under stress. Stress generates dopamine
25:04
Speaker 4: just as well. So make someone busy, time poor, under stress,
25:08
Speaker 4: they are likely to not have ADHD symptoms, is what
25:12
Speaker 4: this study is saying. And the reason is because of that,
25:15
Speaker 4: because they're generating their own dopamine.
25:17
Speaker 3: And this lines up with the stuff we've talked.
25:19
Speaker 5: About in the past about ice baths, for example, how
25:22
Speaker 5: do you address something like this jump in an ice
25:24
Speaker 5: bath because an ice bath is a massive dose of
25:27
Speaker 5: stress and it gives you a huge dopamine hit.
25:31
Speaker 3: So that's what this found.
25:32
Speaker 4: The interesting thing is also backed up with some earlier
25:35
Speaker 4: studies on students which found, okay, but what they're busy
25:39
Speaker 4: doing matters. So you have to be interested in the
25:43
Speaker 4: thing you are doing or that's keeping you busy, or
25:46
Speaker 4: you won't get any dopamine from it. So being busy
25:49
Speaker 4: doing housework, for example, did not have any effect on students'
25:53
Speaker 4: ability to focus. But being busy playing sport did oh right.
26:00
Speaker 1: It's not just any busy. It's a certain kind of busy.
26:02
Speaker 4: It has to be something you want to do. So
26:05
Speaker 4: it's got to be something that you enjoy or else
26:07
Speaker 4: you're not going to keep up motivation to stay busy
26:10
Speaker 4: with it anyway. But also, it's not actually giving you
26:13
Speaker 4: an open mean here because you don't want to do
26:14
Speaker 4: it in the first place.
26:15
Speaker 1: That is very interesting. I wonder if I wonder if
26:19
Speaker 1: knowing that in the education system, they could do something
26:23
Speaker 1: with that insight.
26:25
Speaker 4: I think a lot of teachers know this sort of
26:29
Speaker 4: without any official science behind it. They know if I
26:33
Speaker 4: want these boys in my class that are bouncing off
26:35
Speaker 4: the walls to focus, I'll let them go outside and
26:38
Speaker 4: bounce around for a bit and then I'll get more
26:40
Speaker 4: out of them.
26:43
Speaker 1: Well, t if it looks like you've got some editing
26:45
Speaker 1: to do, because you've got to insert you may have
26:48
Speaker 1: to reinsert that lady's audio because I don't know how
26:51
Speaker 1: good that was, and you have to it was bloody awful,
26:55
Speaker 1: and because yeah, that was a bit dodgy, So you
26:57
Speaker 1: might have to figure that out. But you're a whiz.
26:59
Speaker 1: And then you've got to insert the MT seven with
27:03
Speaker 1: the Akropovich System on it, which that means nothing to
27:08
Speaker 1: our listeners, but just.
27:09
Speaker 2: Trust me, it means something to some of them.
27:12
Speaker 1: It means something too much to the twelve Bogans that
27:15
Speaker 1: listen to the show. Shout out to the Bogans and
27:18
Speaker 1: Galspo's like, what's in Akropovich full system just makes it
27:22
Speaker 1: sound good?
27:22
Speaker 3: Mate?
27:22
Speaker 4: With the baffle out, I'm going to have to do
27:26
Speaker 4: something I've never done before. I'm going to have to
27:27
Speaker 4: go and listen to one of these episodes so I
27:29
Speaker 4: can hear it.
27:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, you'll hear it, So it'll be out, not tomorrow,
27:32
Speaker 1: the next day. I'm able to say goodbye, affair, but
27:35
Speaker 1: as always, we appreciate you. Thank you sir.
27:37
Speaker 3: Right out see y