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Aisling McCaffrey - The forks in the road that shaped her career · Difference Makers Podcast

• 0:14
  Sinead Donovan: Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, everybody, to this episode of Difference Makers Discuss.
• 0:20
  Sinead Donovan: I'm Sinead Dunovan and I am delighted I'm chatting to an old friend of mine today, uh member of Institute of Chartered Accountants Ireland, Ashleen McCaffrey.
• 0:31
  Sinead Donovan: I've known Ashleen for a number of years, and she is really truly an inspiring chartered accountant and an inspiring person.
• 0:39
  Sinead Donovan: I'm not sure how best to introduce her as she has so many achievements, but I've jotted down a few bullet points.
• 0:44
  Sinead Donovan: So she's a one young world ambassador.
• 0:47
  Sinead Donovan: She is a passionate advocate for all things EDI and sustainability, and has managed to combine her profession with these passions.
• 0:55
  Sinead Donovan: She is an international a international athlete, hence why I'm wearing my Irish rugby jersey.
• 1:01
  Sinead Donovan: I bear no apologies for that, but Ashlyn represented Ireland in tag and touch rugby, and she's genuinely one of the most authentic people I have worked with in my career.
• 1:12
  Sinead Donovan: So Ashley, I'm delighted to welcome you today.
• 1:16
  Sinead Donovan: You are talking to us from London, where you've relocated to, and you are currently working with the Impact Investing Institute, which I want to delve into.
• 1:25
  Sinead Donovan: But come here, fill in the gaps there.
• 1:27
  Sinead Donovan: Um all the things you've done in your life to date and and and all the things you've achieved.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh a few gaps to fill in, though I don't, I don't think so.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think you covered it all, Shanid.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I am very appreciative of the of the Irish charity.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: So uh thanks for representing as always.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, it's been um, I don't know, it's been an amazing journey so far in terms of where things have gotten to with my my career.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think if I were to kind of look back at where I was as a I don't know, 17-year-old, considering what I was going to do next coming out of school, I'm not sure that I would have been able to articulate where I am now or even half of the journey that that I've taken.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: And that's actually kind of half the fun of looking back is having that realization that I really couldn't have planned for some of this.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of it has been about um taking a bit of a leap of faith at certain times, um speaking to some amazing people that have kind of guided me along the way, and then fundamentally as well, the role that I guess the qualification has had in kind of giving me opening doors to a lot of different opportunities, whether it's been One Young World or career-wise.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then actually, even with Tag and Touch, like I started playing tag through a work, uh, a work social team.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: So uh weirdly enough, it's all it's all been interconnected, and that's as you said, um, got to play at an international level in Australia and Malaysia, which again couldn't have seen that coming.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so yeah, it's been it's been amazing.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: It still feels like there's so much more to do and so much more to see, but but like really excited at where I'm kind of landed at the moment and and kind of feels a little bit full circle in a sense, in terms of maybe some ideas that I did have about um you know working in kind of humanitarian settings.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: I always had this kind of desire to want to make things better, and I it's a very big, it's a very big statement, which is great.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: At some point I was like, I wish I just knew I wanted to be a doctor, and that would have made my life a lot easier.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: But um, I could never really put my finger on what that meant.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I think taking the time to just learn your own skill sets, learn more about yourself, understand what settings I kind of thrive in and where I can add value is getting me a lot closer to then understanding how, like what way can I work to kind of make things better, work to to improve um, you know, what's going on around me.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: So, so yeah, that's a little bit of like the gap filling, I guess.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's all being a bit interconnected, and I don't know, I still feel like I'm on the journey, so it's a bit strange looking.
• 4:13
  Sinead Donovan: Oh yeah, you've still got a long way to go, Ashley, and believe me, there's no putting your boots up yet.
• 4:18
  Sinead Donovan: Um so come here, let's go back to the beginning.
• 4:20
  Sinead Donovan: You am I right in saying you did an actuary actuary degree?
• 4:24
  Sinead Donovan: Yeah.
• 4:24
  Sinead Donovan: And then how did you go from there into accountancy and then talk to me a little bit about the passions?
• 4:29
  Sinead Donovan: Because your passions were there from the word go.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so um I did actuarial studies at UCD, and um I think I mean from day one, it was always a bit of a I didn't really, as I said, I didn't really know what I wanted to do career-wise.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: I never had a very fixed like, oh, I want to go into this career or that.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly, at the time, my subjects were music and maths, were like my two strongest subjects in school, and it was careers advisor because that was like you should give actuary a go.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, it's at the time they were it was quite sought after.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: And um, so my just for a bit of a laugh, my first choice was actuary in UCD, and my second choice was Irish music and dance in University of Limerick.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: So there was all there's always been forks in the road, and I've gone a certain way, and it could have been a very different, um, very different career path.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: But yes, I ended up in UCD.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it was a really, really tough course.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: It was really fun.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: There wasn't about 24 of us in the class.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: It kind of did feel like an extension of school, which I think worked really well for me, but it was really hard.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was a bit of a wake-up moment for me, and that you know, I'd done quite well in school always.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: And this was the first time that I really had been given a fairly big challenge in terms of like not really being able to understand things straight away, having to go and ask for support.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: So honestly, I learned a lot in those four years, and I got I got through the course.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think in the process of doing that, I learned a lot about myself in terms of what I wanted to do, and I got an opportunity to do work placement as well, which was brilliant as part of the course.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: But it that did a lot again for kind of giving me a better understanding of what the role would be.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think for me, there was a lot of motivation to be in the space because you know it was a it was a brilliant career, it was really well paid, um, but ultimately it wasn't kind of lighting me up, and I still was at a point where I was like, I don't know what it is that lights me up, but I kind of know it's not this now that I've gone through this four years.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I was really lucky.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: I was able to do a bit of traveling um uh and went to Australia, where worked, worked all summer in um reception in my mom's work in Holly in Belfast and took off, went to Australia.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: And when I was there, um I worked when I was there and I met some incredible people, and one woman in in in particular that um had done loads of work in the humanitarian space.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I had always had an interest, had done lots of volunteering um in both in UCD, but also from quite a young age, I went to um China with Special Olympics Ireland as a volunteer.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: And that was, I would say that was one of those moments of 17 that absolutely blew my mind open as to one, what you can do as a volunteer and just to be part of that incredible experience, but also going to China and just like the absolute, like just seeing the cultural differences and really having my eyes open to like the world that was out there.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd always been toying around with this idea of like wanting to kind of be in that space.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'd looked at a master's in humanitarian development.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: And anyway, I met this amazing woman and I was kind of at this again, another, I would say, crossroads moment where I had a few options open to me.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: One, do this master's uh in in back in UCD in humanitarian development.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: It was two years.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: Two, I still could go into actuary, like I had opportunities from a job perspective, or three question mark, question mark something else.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um and obviously I was in Australia, so I could have could have stayed stayed there for a little bit.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I met this incredible woman, and she honestly, I think it was like one conversation over about two hours where she really gave me a great steer on um kind of I had this passion and desire to want to be in this space, but I don't, I didn't really have an understanding of what it meant.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: And uh her being in the kind of NGO and humanitarian world kind of gave me a really good understanding of like this is hard work, like it's it's difficult.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: I've had maybe like short-term voluntary experiences that have felt, you know, great and lovely, but she was like, this is difficult.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: And she was like, I think given where I was kind of just out of college, she was like the best thing that you could do right now is keep developing your skill set.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I didn't really know what I was good at, apart from you know, obviously I could study uh a lot, um, but just really understanding like what value can I add?
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it was it was actually her that said to me, Well, what about um what about accountancy?
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: She was like, if you're good at maths and so you've gotten through your your uh actuary degree, um, she was like, accountancy's, you know, kind of general business, you'll learn a bit of tax the law.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: She was like, Why don't you go with that first and keep kind of going in terms of developing your skills and see where that takes you?
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: So that's honestly that's how I ended up an accountant and and I ended up in GT again.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's a bit of a bit of a laugh, but I'd miss the the window um for kind of grad placements.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I was digging on the GT website and somehow applied to the grad program and got a very quick email from HR to be like, How did you manage to get through the system and find the like hidden page to apply that we thought we closed?
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: And it was just a bit of luck that you know, um Nicodora that we know had joined and was looking for an additional trainee.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I that's how I went in.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: So it has been funny.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: Things have just, you know, there's been forks in the road, also, there's just been a lot of a lot of luck along the way in terms of timing.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and just on that, that's something that my granny used to say to me, you know, oh, you're really lucky.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: And when I was younger, I used to get really annoyed at that.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, I worked really hard.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like, stop saying I'm lucky.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: But actually, when you look at things, you know, it is a lot of it is luck in terms of like where you were at a certain time or where you were born into, you know, that that kind of thing.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so yeah, that's how I ended up kind of into the accountancy world.
• 10:22
  Sinead Donovan: It's a training.
• 10:23
  Sinead Donovan: Fantastic, fantastic story.
• 10:24
  Sinead Donovan: And and if I could meet that woman, I would shake her hand and say, Thank you so much for giving Ashlyn that bit of advice.
• 10:30
  Sinead Donovan: And what a great what a great advocate for the uh for the profession.
• 10:33
  Sinead Donovan: And on the luck piece, I do believe that you need to be good to be lucky, but you also need to seize those opportunities.
• 10:40
  Sinead Donovan: A lot of people let luck pass them by, and you do need to be put it, but it's also nice to um acknowledge them.
• 10:47
  Sinead Donovan: So, GT, we won't dwell we won't dwell too much in that, but we will be coming back to that because you essentially uh combined your passion for um sustainability with your work there.
• 10:57
  Sinead Donovan: But before we go there, talk to me a bit about One Young World.
• 11:00
  Sinead Donovan: So you were a One Young World ambassador in 20 COVID years, wasn't it?
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think yeah, it was just after COVID, 21, 22.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, I went to I went to One Young World in Munich.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I actually think that was when you talk about you know passion for sustainability, I actually think One Young World was the thing that that crystallized a lot of that.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, as I've talked, like I've done, as I've said, I've done bits of volunteering, I've done, you know, coaching and and different things in rugby and and others.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so I always had this like wide range of things that I was interested in.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: But it's quite hard to describe.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: And somebody would be like, you know, what are you if somebody said to me, What are you passionate about, what are you?
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: I could list off about 25 different things that I was interested in, whether it was like women and girls in sport or just generally like, you know, people with disabilities and getting access to opportunities.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: There was there's reams of stuff I just found that there was lots of things that I enjoyed.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that was a bit of a struggle to be able to actually articulate that in a coherent way.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things that One Young World unlocked was was was that connectivity across to sustainable development goals as a starting point and as a as a language to talk about what I was interested in.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd never really, I was aware of the goals, I'd never really spent a lot of time with them to really understand why they existed, what they were about, and what they actually said.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: And part of the process for One Young World at the time when I applied was you had to kind of articulate what goals you were most interested in, and then also what you were doing around those goals.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it was for me, it was such an eye-opening moment where I suddenly was like, oh, there's loads of these things that I'm interested in that seem like kind of random, but actually a lot of them kind of come together under specific goals, whether it's you know, gender equality, whether it is environmental.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it meant that I was able to be a lot more precise about explaining different things that I was passionate about.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that was also tied to these goals, which basically said, if we can do all of these things, we'll move into a much better world.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: And it was like such a light bulb moment for me to be like, oh, okay, this isn't just like me on my own thinking about all these random things, like this is how they connect to this much bigger global picture, and here's how I'm in my little way, individually, but also alongside others, working towards these like overarching goals.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: And it really did like blow open a lot of thinking for me in that aspect.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say that was like pretty pivotal into how my career transitioned as well.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: Again, kind of good timing when this happened, and then from a career perspective, lots of EU regulation came out, and I was in the financial services consulting space, but it gave me the language to say, even internally, look, this is some sustainability is something I'm interested in.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: Would I have said that three years earlier, I don't think I would have had the words to describe it in that way.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: And One Young World really gave me that by going through the process and then actually going um to Munich was just incredible, and meeting people that were just doing all these amazing things.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: And the the yeah, the most I was so glad to be there with Caroline.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: There was two of us that year, and I remember on the first day we just sat back and looked at each other and went, Oh my god, how did we get here?
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: There's so many people, like literally changing the world.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: It was just so overwhelming, but it was incredible, it was just an incredible immersive experience and like really inspiring, but also gave me so much to think about in terms of like the different roles that people can play, how we can work together, um, and just like yeah, a kind of eye-opening to see what people were actually doing to drive things forward.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it was a really, a really important moment, I think, for me in terms of like doubling down on thing who I was and like helping bring that together cohesively, and then starting to tie that more directly into my skills and what I could do at work.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that was yeah, it was one of the I think biggest moments for me um over the last couple of years for that.
• 15:15
  Sinead Donovan: That's brilliant.
• 15:16
  Sinead Donovan: And and I think the way you describe those um the goals there is the best, is the best way I've ever heard them being described, and how you kind of mapped your passion and your life almost into them, which which is fantastic.
• 15:28
  Sinead Donovan: One Young World is something quite special, and and the more I learn about it, the more I realize how special it is for a lot of people.
• 15:34
  Sinead Donovan: It's been their kind of platform to move forward.
• 15:38
  Sinead Donovan: But I think you've used that platform incredibly well from a networking perspective as well as everything else.
• 15:43
  Sinead Donovan: And I I think a lot of your uh you use it, you use it in the way that a uh Kingsley uh Akins has taught us to use it, you give to get.
• 15:51
  Sinead Donovan: Um so I I really mean that, um, and I commend you on that.
• 15:55
  Sinead Donovan: So from that, you really discovered your I guess you mapped your passions into the profession, but you were instrumental in setting up the consulting team in in Granthorn that focused on sustainability, and that kind of started to me the obvious journey of where you moved professionally into your passion and you started making a real impact to those around you, to clients and and and to everyone.
• 16:21
  Sinead Donovan: But talk to me a little bit about that because I think that started the path into where you ultimately are now.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think yes, I think that was a it was a big moment again, like when I think of forks in the road uh timing-wise, it was it was it was a leap of faith, to be honest.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I think like it when you look at what got developed, it doesn't always seem that way because people were like, oh, what when they look at it, they're like, oh, there's a team in place and you know there's there's work and it's great.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I remember them that moment in time.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I mentioned um uh Nick O'Doric previously as someone that you know he had hired me and I'd always worked for him and I've been in Grant Thornton a long time.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I was about seven or eight years in at this stage.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I had a big career decision to make at the time.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, we were looking to do some work internationally.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: I was kind of asked to lead on that.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: I I knew that was a big career opportunity for me, as well as like, you know, opportunity for promotion and everything else.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: So that was the kind of decision that was put in front of me in terms of that being the option.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: And the other avenue was to kind of leap into this world of sustainability.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: And at the time, the regulation was just coming out.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: We were getting a little bit of interest from clients, but there was not like, you know, we didn't have work coming in, there wasn't a team.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think having gone through that process of really trying to understand what I was interested in and kind of having that moment of being like, I feel like this is for me.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like I don't fully know what it is, I don't know what exactly what role I will end up playing or we will end up playing as an organization.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: But this feels like the way that I need to go, even though it's not fully mapped out.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so I remember sitting in a room with three partners at the time, articulating that this is what I want to do.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: We don't have an offering, it's not clear what it is yet, but I'm passing up on this very obvious opportunity and for career progression and everything else that on paper made total sense.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think it was in that moment to have people that actually listened to me and say, and and and also trusted in me and gave me the kind of ability to make make that jump, put support around me to do that was was kind of incredible, to be honest, when I look back.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think people really they don't, you know, people don't see the ins and outs of those things, they just see whatever gets built.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but that was a reality at the time.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: I just had this gut instinct that this is what I wanted to do.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: It felt like also an opportunity work-wise.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I I was kind of throwing caution to the wind and saying, I'm gonna go this way, uh, this is what I'd like to do.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: And thankfully I had people that were willing to back me and say, okay, let's let's give it a go and see what happens.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, so it was kind of incredible and and really, you know, it was it felt almost felt like being in a startup, um, albeit you're in a very big organization, but that's what it felt like.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Catherine Duncan came in, who's incredible, and the two of us worked really hard together to kind of build out um the offering and grow the team.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: And and yeah, they ended up spending a number of years uh working um specifically with AIB, which was fantastic on their sustainability strategy, and that covered lots of different things integration of climate risk, um, you know, financial reporting, so a little bit of everything.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it was brilliant.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe just the other thing that to note alongside this, so that was like professional, as in like, you know, uh fee earning, like what I was actually doing consulting, but internally in GT with all the EDI work, I think like that was something I was always really passionate about.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: I maybe sat back for a while in terms of observing, you know, what was going on organizationally as you do, and you're kind of a grad and coming up.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then as I got more senior, I was like, actually, this is something that I can contribute to.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the work that I did internally was actually similar in that I was bringing my skill set that I had learned through consulting and working in, you know, um project management and everything else, and actually trying to apply that internally to develop kind of the DI strategy.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: So it was really it was just really cool to kind of sit back and be like, oh, I'm bringing my skills to this to progress it, and other people will have other elements that they can bring.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: But what I can bring is like articulating the process and trying to turn it into something that that can live beyond, you know, one to two key people.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it was like great to suddenly start to see that like, oh, these are the things that I can bring to these problem areas or these kind of challenges or questions.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: Here's what I can bring.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, it was a really great, it was a really great moment of kind of starting to understand myself a little bit better, I think, as well.
• 21:11
  Sinead Donovan: Yeah, well done.
• 21:11
  Sinead Donovan: And you've you've described that so well.
• 21:15
  Sinead Donovan: But I mean, I think the takeaways for for anyone, just to summarize the key takeaways for me there is you combined your passion with the drive to push yourself out of the comfort zone because because you absolutely did.
• 21:31
  Sinead Donovan: Um and and you then put hard work together.
• 21:34
  Sinead Donovan: So you did four things.
• 21:35
  Sinead Donovan: You had you had a passion, you had a purpose, you had uh push yourself out of your comfort zone, you had hard work.
• 21:40
  Sinead Donovan: And that's all to a lot of things in life, unfortunately or unfortunately, because it doesn't take hard work.
• 21:47
  Sinead Donovan: It doesn't always work out what it worked out, there for for you and thank you from an extraordinary and for the D and I because we we build something really should be proud of um there okay so now to where you are now because this the impact i'm gonna call it wrong impact investing institute have i got it right if i got it the right way around it's a fascinating um organization to tell us a bit about that and it really it just crystallizes everything that is you I think yeah it yeah and honestly it was it was just amazing to to come across them and then to be in here now is like it feels like such a um it was such a great fit and such a great move and I think for me again I had got to a point in my career where I was really proud of everything I'd done but I just always felt like there was more there was more to do um and I think maintaining that connection through One Young World specifically and like my peers in that group that I'm still in touch with today and seeing what they were doing and they're really pushing the boat out in terms of what they're driving at and where they're working.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I kind of always had that unsettlement of like I need to like push myself as hard as I can and it and now feels like the time to do it when I can when I'm young you know where when I don't have major sacrifices to make like why don't I just try this out so I honestly I the move to London and come to the institute again some some things came together at a great time but I I had had a gun instinct where I was like I need to just jump and see where I can land and because that feels like the next way to kind of push myself on to the next level and I was again the institute role came up I didn't wasn't that familiar with with the organization at the time went through their work and was just blown away by kind of their um an independent nonprofit and really interesting came off the back of a a UK government um task force that was looking at social uh impact investing as a way of kind of driving change within wider capital markets.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it just felt like this really great fit of moving into space where I guess ultimately we're like a systems change organization.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: We're trying to understand how to drive change within capital markets to be more intentional about environmental and social outcomes and using impact investing as one of the ways to kind of do that as a proof point and to bring people in.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I'd always wrestled with this idea over the years of like you know being in finance, financial services being an accountant versus like the real purist view of like what it means to be in for example in a humanitarian space or work for a nonprofit those two things never quite overlapped for me at times.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: Now I've been in some conversations where you know we've gotten there in terms of like the role of finance in driving change in the world but I think too often those come like these two worlds didn't overlap enough um in the spaces I was in.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: So it was amazing to land at the institute where effectively it was the Venn diagram of like how do we drive change positive change and how do we influence financial flows, capital markets, working with you know everyone from kind of mainstream big asset managers, pension funds the whole way over to individuals, family offices, foundations of the whole spectrum of capital to really understand how to um how to drive change and I guess then the work that I do is is centered on looking at specific challenges where money isn't currently flowing and doing a lot of convening to bring people together to have build trust but to have those really honest conversations as to what is needed to kind of we call it unkinking the hose but what is needed to kind of get that money moving and going beyond kind of some of those surface level like we can we can all agree in principle as to why certain things should happen but the only way we're gonna actually move forward is if we get down to that level of detail of like what are the actual blockers here some are obvious some are really not that obvious and and you can only really get that through like honest dialogue and and engagement.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: So it has honestly been amazing to kind of come into this space because it feels like a perfect combination of like what I've what I've learned so far in terms of interacting with the financial services world and also what I'm really passionate about, which is like solving for societal challenges and big ones and being able to kind of bring those two things together.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I also just love learning from other people and hearing what people are are doing.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: So being able to be in a kind of independent um nonprofit where that is part of my job is like going out and meeting different people and hearing what they're doing and then trying to be that connective tissue in terms of bringing some of these concepts together or amplifying work that's already out there is um yeah it's been it's been incredible.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm just yeah I'm so happy to to have landed here and the breadth of work that I get to do at the moment is just um yeah it's a bit it's a bit uh it's a bit crazy to be honest.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um I was in Ethiopia a few months ago with the UN did I see that coming a year and a half ago no you know so it's just been it's been incredible.
• 27:18
  Sinead Donovan: It sounds like the type of role that if you if if you knew you could jot down a paper what you wanted to do it would be the type of role that that that you would write for for for yourself but but but having said that it is absolutely pushing you out of your comfort zone.
• 27:32
  Sinead Donovan: I mean as you said you were in Ethiopia with the UN I mean you're dealing with big stakeholders here.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah yeah and it's a real like every day is different in terms of those conversations like as I said I was in I was in Ethiopia and uh down in like Melcadida which is right down near the Somali um border um and I was down there with UN and HCR um and UNDP just trying to understand you know what is needed uh in this region.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: And again I'm obviously coming at it from a very different perspective.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have expertise in terms of the work that they're doing on the ground or operations but it's really trying to kind of listen hear all the different perspectives and then understand how do we start to translate some of that in terms of like private capital and and the people that we interact with and what conversations can I have with them to get there kind of challenge some of these assumptions.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: So it was amazing.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: So that was like one week and then the next week I come back and had a conversation with um people that were over from the Development Bank of Japan that wanted to learn about what was going on in the UK.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so and then the other work I've done in the last year is looking at the Texan apparel sector in India and what do we need to do to drive more um investor action there for just transition.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd be I was over in India a few times and it's just been yeah as I said it's been incredible.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: I get to speak to like a large range of different types of amazing people but also have the tough conversations about like you know all of this sounds great but like the reality is there isn't money flowing here and like how do we solve for that and that's not always an easy it's not an easy fix.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: If it was we wouldn't be having the conversation so it can be difficult in that sense where you're like I've been exposed to all these these great things that are happening and yet the money still isn't moving and there's so much systemic change that needs to happen.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: So just really trying to like yeah keep keep pushing um for that and and and and bring as many people around the table as possible to to try and enact that change I think um but yeah it's so it's been yeah it's been it's been incredible a lot of learning yeah I'd say so and and actually to that point I mean you say there about systemic change and and and some of the barriers and and all the rest.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean we live in a in a bit of a crazy world at the moment and there's a lot going on are are you hopeful or are you are you do you I know you I know you're not a natural person gets down but are you worried about some of the things you're seeing or or are you are you hopeful that you know really we'll we'll be okay we'll we'll we'll turn this around with a lot of work yeah I think I mean I think first of all I'm a kind of hopeless optimist rightly or wrongly um but maybe more so in that in order to also protect my own peace I try to you know look for the positive find the joy whilst also having like very realistic conversations about bringing clarity to challenges like can we really get to the bottom of why this isn't working and that kind of motivates me a lot is like there's a lot of issues there's a lot of stuckness and sometimes I feel like there's so many people working towards solutions and a lot of the time it's about bringing those people together and like helping translate between all the different languages that we're using whether that's in finance whether that's in NGO world or you know organizations that are on the ground working with communities.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's what kind of like motivates me.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yes there's a lot of horrendous things um going on in the world right now but I guess where I am I'm really focused on like what can we do about it?
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like if I sit in that for too long it's it doesn't really get me anywhere.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: So my response to that is okay like how what can I do to drive any sort of change um here and you know what what challenge can I contribute to?
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: I can't fix everything but like surely I can help incrementally move something um along in some way with the skills that I have and and the kind of where I am and the people are people around me.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of what keeps me going.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: But also in this work and in this role I just honestly get to meet so many people that are doing incredible things and I think there's so much to that that just isn't always visible.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: And that that honestly is what gives me hope because it's it's the same it's like the converse of like you seeing all the negativity and and and horrendous stuff in the news but when you're also then exposed to like all this like innovation and people that are working together and collaborating in a whole other world that I would say didn't have that much visibility on.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what kind of I guess lights me up and kind of keeps me keeps me going is that I understand there's there's I'm just like a small cod.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: There's so many more people that are working really hard to try and like solve for for challenges and it's just how can we how can we make the most of that and how can we dial up the impact in decisions that people are making because yeah ultimately I feel like a lot of it's about human human beings making decisions in different places.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: So um I'm always interested in people and kind of curiosity around how decisions get made like what are people thinking about and how to influence so so yeah so I I would say I live in a bit of a hope bubble but that's what that's what keeps me motivated not without a healthy dose of realism just to be clear.
• 33:03
  Sinead Donovan: Yeah no no no absolutely and you know what struck me there when you were talking was I honestly believe that a lot of our training as chartered accountants is that logic aspect.
• 33:13
  Sinead Donovan: So what you described there was getting to the root of logic and actually getting people talking or trying to unlock the logic as to how to make A plus B equal C rather than focusing on that A and B are different.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: But I do think there's a little bit in how our brain works and how our training lots of logic lots of process also just humility to kind of like to under like I'm very comfortable being in a space where I'm like I don't have all the answers and I'm not the expert here but I would like to be the person that helps accelerate the thinking and maybe that's part of what's needed in certain scenarios and I think I think it is a lot of times it's just like we're we're we're working in so many different silos um or like we different mandates or people have you know even from an impact perspective they're interested in certain topics and it doesn't quite match with how we talk about a problem over here.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: So just really trying to do that in between work to say well actually these two things do do line up in this way.
• 34:18
  Sinead Donovan: Yeah that's what I that's what kind of motivates me I think brilliant um Ashley I can't believe it I've just looked at my watch and and and I'm gonna have to wrap it up you are uh an inspiration you you are amazing your energy is amazing your positivity is amazing if you could leave us with one final message what what would it be?
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: Anything the floor is yours oh the pressure um I think I think for me it's like the the biggest unlockers to to kind of me being where I am today and being I guess really happy with what I'm doing has just been one being really curious and and being willing to kind of listen to what other people are doing both like within my own space but a lot like way outside of that in terms of stuff that sounds mad but what can I learn from their journey and is any of that kind of applicable um to me because I always think there's a little bit of like every time you meet somebody a little bit of yourself kind of gets reflected back.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: So like having a diverse uh base of people that you interact with for me has been the key to just like unlocking my own potential.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's been probably one of the the the biggest things is just being open open to that.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then yeah just aware I can being able to kind of follow follow your your gut instinct really build out your skill set get to know what you're good at what you like and then where you can find those crossovers and and doing doing that activity around sustainable development goals was really interesting for me.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know I've said it to a few people in the past and people have found it useful just as a way to kind of I think we struggle sometimes with purpose and understanding what our purpose is or what it could be.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: And for me that was a really helpful actually framing on a personal level to to move forward.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: So um so yeah that was probably like six things as opposed to one really going to the punchy line but um but yeah better understanding of self and that can come from um lots of different things but being really open to experiences and people I guess is a way of learning.
• 36:25
  Sinead Donovan: Well done Ashlyn um brilliant as always and thank you so much for your time because I know you're a very busy woman and uh best of luck over the next uh while we will be in touch.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 36:35
  Sinead Donovan: Thank you so much Janaed and thank you to you our listeners um I hope that episode has um energized you as much as it's energized me um and yeah I look forward to seeing you for the next episode of Difference Makers Discuss.
• 36:51
  Sinead Donovan: Take care.
• 36:52
  Sinead Donovan: Bye bye, I'm gonna be able to