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45. Calm Money: Why Financial Self-Care Comes Before the Plan with Dr. Alex Melkumian · Planning & Beyond® - Where financial planning meets human understanding

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: One of my favorite questions in the therapy room is what do you need right now?
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: What do you need right now?
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's an experiential question.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_02: What do you need right now to dial down to activation?
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_02: What do you need right now to feel okay, at least in the in the here and now in the moment?
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_02: Let's not jump ahead and think of, you know, tomorrow or even the next minute.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: What do you need right now?
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the show where financial planning meets human understanding.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: As an exceptional financial advisor, you know that financial planning is about more than just numbers.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's about giving clients the clarity they need to align their money with what matters most, which is why each episode is designed with that goal in mind.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: You'll learn how to uncover the psychology behind client decisions and gain insights and behavioral strategies needed to create deeper, more meaningful client relationships.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: You'll discover techniques for navigating emotional client situations, drawn from conversations with leading industry experts in behavioral finance, psychology, communication, and more.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: Whether it's mastering discovery meanings, handling sensitive client conversations, or understanding what is truly keeping your client stuck, you'll walk away with not only strategies that you can use in your next client meeting, but also the confidence to do so.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, hi.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: I should probably introduce myself.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Ashley Kwamey, a therapist who somehow wandered into the world of financial behavior and kind of decided to stay.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: My mission is to help you bridge the gap between financial planning and human understanding.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because remember, finances don't have feelings, but your clients do.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: Let's dive in.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the podcast where financial planning meets human understanding.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Ashley Kwame, and today I am joined by my long-term friend, Alex slash Dr.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: Alex slash uh super cool human slash licensed marriage and family therapist and uh founder of the Financial Psychology Center out in LA, Alex slash all the slashes.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the show, friend.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad to have you here.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: We finally make you do this.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's been a little overdue, but I've been following you on LinkedIn and social media, and I love the work that you're doing.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, likewise, likewise.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: And actually today, what is super exciting is that we're here to talk about your work, the work that you've been doing.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you've been doing this work, which we will name here uh more specifically.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you've been doing this work for quite a while.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so let's talk about what that work is before we get into maybe the cool news, like what we're really here to talk about.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about just all the other work that's come before this.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like, who are you?
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, share a little bit about yourself.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: So let's let's take it all the way back.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: And and uh before actually we dive in, um, I guess I want to say like if you're listening to uh a podcast about money, congratulations, right?
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: You're already doing more financial self-care than half of America.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but my background is uh I'm a manager family therapist out here in Los Angeles.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: And um I was a garden variety therapist here in LA uh back in uh mid-2000s.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: And the Great Recession just started to creep up in 2007, eight, and nine.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: And all of a sudden, I started hearing my clients mentioning, you know, money things, all things related to money quite often.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, foreclosures on their homes, you know, losing, you know, quite a bit of their stock portfolios and so on and so on, retirement.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: And that's when I started to look around at my fellow mental health therapists to ask, you know, what are the resources that exist out there to help, you know, our clients deal with financial stress, anxiety, and all things related to money.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_02: And unfortunately at that time, 2008, nine, 10, it was, you know, all I heard was crickets.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: And um as uh one of my colleagues at that time said, um, you know, since you're already so interested in doing this, why don't you kind of go back to school and and get a doctorate and and and uh sort of be one of the speakers of your way, yeah.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so fast forward, uh, we're all you know, um overnight successes, 10 years in the making, 15 years in the making, something like that.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_02: So here we are.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: Here we are, here we are.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh well, you know, I have been familiar with your work for some time, and um, some of that is specifically because uh you are an LMFT like myself.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I thought that that was very interesting when I came into this space and looking at what you were doing, um, you know, and and learning and learning from you.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh what I like most about, you know, what you have currently been working on um is this idea around, and you kind of already named it here, like financial self-care and what does that look like?
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh now I know that for those listening to the show, those that tend to listen to planning and beyond, the advisor community, um, they know that we talk about self-care here on the show.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so that is likely not a new concept, um, self-care.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but let's talk about financial self-care.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, how do you define that?
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: What is that?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think of financial self-care as um a set of compassionate relatable money practices that can help a person feel safer, feel clearer and more capable uh with money, especially when it comes to stress.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_02: And so, as you may just mention, you know, we're so often hear, you know, narratives and themes out there in social media about self-care, improving our self-care and what all of that looks like.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_02: And usually it's you know, taking a walk, working out, eating healthier, um, sort of the the usual suspects.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: And um uh that actually tells us that, you know, there's uh this is a helpful story where people are engaging in self-care.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: And um many reports report really a lot of benefit coming from uh self-care, less stress, less less physical health issues, and and so on and so on.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_02: But the data also kind of quietly points to something that is a kind of a cache, that most of it happens in small births.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_02: And um overall, we're just kind of too busy in our lives.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: We're you know, running around trying to earn, you know, have uh a job and a side gig.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: I know in LA that's very common, especially for families who have kids, uh being able to provide uh and uh for for your family and um you know the cost of living and and um you know the the median income is rising and rising and rising.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: Or um, so that's you know really at the crux of regular self-care, right?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: And um even globally, the the the World Health Organization has emphasized that self-care is an essential long-term health um uh health improvement for for chronic conditions.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: Now, um there's a gap, right?
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: And this gap exists between traditional self-care, which often skips the stressor that's very quietly driving so many of our uh overwhelming emotions, our feelings of being triggered and activated in our nervous system, which is money, right?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: As so many of us in the financial services and mental health field, and anybody who is a financial therapist, we know the statistic that according to the APA, um, it's long been highlighted that money has been the number one stressor for most Americans.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's actually been since 2008, if I'm not mistaken.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: So um, we end up with this um strange split, right?
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, do I do meditation?
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: Or do I learn a walk?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: Do we talk about it?
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, do I need to sleep more or what do I need to do to kind of address the elephant in the room of this you know, financial stress that keeps being so pervasive, right?
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, as a practitioner, uh a financial psychologist who works with people and organizations and groups, you know, the tightness of the chest, the shallow breath, racing thoughts, all of those are there and constant, unfortunately, for so many people.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um so that's where kind of the the journey of of my new project, Calm Money, uh begins.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: Calm Money is actually uh a book and a financial self-care journal um in the form of a workbook.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: And that journey, again, really started when so many of my clients um came into my room and it didn't start with like a budget or a spreadsheet or a financial portfolio.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: It started with a feeling.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um I kept seeing you know, my clients who are smart, they're capable, they are hardworking people who weren't bad with money.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they were just living in this quiet state of financial tension, stress, overwhelmment, um, and and deep shame.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess, you know, some of them were felt like they were controlled by money and try to control every dollar as a result.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: And then others kind of felt that there's so much uncertainty that was almost uh unbearable, right?
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: So a lot of a lot of clients report back that they their relationship with money can be really extreme.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um and it kind of pushes them into mindsets of, oh, I'll deal with it tomorrow, right?
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: That's the avoidance piece, and then oh, I have to fix it right here, right now.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: That's the vigilance piece.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_02: And really the the biggest question that came out of that was why does money feel like this?
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's almost like you know, that's the therapist in me, the experiential practitioner in me, uh raised that question.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: And that question became really actually the center of my first book called Financial Psychology, Restoring Financial Wellness in the Post-COVID economy.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: And when you when I zoomed out, I saw at that time that there's an epidemic of financial stress that we were not talking about, right?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: And it was built on a premise.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_02: That book was built on a premise that I actually still believe to this day, which is that financial literacy plus financial psychology equals financial health.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: Because just information alone, in my experience, doesn't really calm our nervous system.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't um soothe us to be able to make the right choice financially.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_02: And unfortunately, I wish this was so, but mindset alone also doesn't pay the bills, right?
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: I was thinking and I was thinking in my mind, like around financial self-care and was laughing, I guess, because you know, in my mind, I was like, man, it sure would be nice if like if I just went for a walk, like more money showed up in my bank account.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, or or if I just went for a walk, then like this financial stress like would be solved, like the self-care part, doing things that calm our nervous system, uh, that are restorative, uh, that are, you know, I would say even like therapeutic, like for us to take care of our body and mind, like those things often don't take care of our finances.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I I love that you mentioned that gap and then even bringing that forward to talking about financial literacy, you know, plus financial.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you said wellness.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: What was the word that you said?
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: Financial psychology.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: Financial psychology.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, how did I miss that?
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, all right, how many cups of coffee have I had?
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: Clearly, not enough.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh, financial literacy, financial literacy plus financial psychology is financial wellness.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that is really important because it isn't just knowledge and it isn't just self-care, uh, right, that can help us navigate as we navigate.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: Now, you also mentioned your new project, and your new project is a new book that uh just released, uh, Calm Money.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: You are giving us a little bit of preview there, I think, kind of with it, but let's dive in.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like, tell us a little bit more like what is what's Calm Money about?
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: What are people who read it, what are they gonna take away from it?
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: What are they gonna learn from it?
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_02: I think I want to kind of go back to the my my first book.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: And the reason why is is the contest is important.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: That particular book, even though it's focused on financial stress, um the question or or the comment that I got as a result of writing that book was this is great, this is great information, but how do I apply this?
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know, what do I do?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_02: Where is the how-to?
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: And really that's where the impetus for calm money really came from.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I as a as a therapist, you know that it's not just what you say, it's how you say it.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_02: That's a common narrative in therapy.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I think this is a really important piece to um, you know, why and how I wrote this particular book because you and I are fans of so many amazing authors in the financial wellness space.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: There's not a shortage of great books and information and literacy, but I felt like there was still a missing piece that I wanted to write the most empathic therapeutic book about money that I that I could muster, right?
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: And kind of and birth it into the world.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I wrote called money in from a standpoint of of being disarming, uh, of having a curious voice that really meets my clients exactly where they are, um, especially like in the messy middle, uh, where there's shame and fear and financial stress and all the things that I see, you know, day to day in my therapy room, whether it's telehealth or on my couch, therapeutic couch.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I wanted to write this book for the client who's really struggling the most.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I had a couple of clients in my mind.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I almost had to do um a meditative sort of exercise before I would sit down to write and really think of those particular clients and what they would need out of this book.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: And who, what are they struggling with?
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that the one client who feels that they're behind, they're stuck, they're too even exhausted to pretend to have it all together, that kind of thing.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess that's the therapist in me, uh, the empath in me that I wanted to offer offer this uh not judgmental and pathic guide.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um that it's not based on perfection or theory, um, and it's no shot at all to all of the financial literacy and financial wellness books out there.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: But I wanted this book to allow the space for mistakes, for repair, for growth.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: And also, I think one of the things you said that I that resonates with me in I share a passion as well is the practical aspect of how do I do this?
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like what does it look like?
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I find that in a different way, like working with advisors and partnering with them is similar in the sense of, you know, they might say, yeah, hey, all of this financial psychology stuff, all of this communication, you know, learning.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um side of money.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like it, right, it makes sense, right?
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like I get it, it makes sense.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: But then like, what does it look like in practice?
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how do I actually do it?
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that gap is where it's exciting to see, you know, people like you writing and starting to fill in like that gap of okay, there's stress, right?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: We can validate maybe why there is stress, where does it come from, all of the aspects like around it.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: But then how do we care for it?
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how do we, how do we attune to it?
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it sounds like that's what you know, calm money, right, really is is bringing that like how-to piece, answering that question there for for clients.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: And you're you're you hit the nail on the head that you know, calm money is really filling that need, that gap.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: Where again, I go back mentally to so many of my clients who um some of them can't even fathom, you know, calling up a financial advisor.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: Mentally, they're not even in the same universe as somebody who has enough money and is confident financially, uh confident enough financially to be able to take that step.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yet others um have the money, have the wealth, but they have the lot the loss aversion, right?
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: And that's the roleblock when they work with their financial advisors.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm sure a lot of you know your financial planning audience can relate to that.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: So the book again is not um it's not about fixing people and fixing the mistakes, it's more about helping them feel safe enough to understand their money story.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: All right, so like that term is really thrown around quite a bit, but it's so, so powerful when you actually see a client have an aha moment and they and and something really clicks and they really understand their money story.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: And inadvertently it helps to soothe their nervous system.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_02: This aha moment is almost like a double-sided coin, if I may say it that way.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure, for sure.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: Before we continue, I'm gonna pause for just a second to tell you about something I'm so excited about.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, I know that this is a classic podcast move, right?
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: But just stay with me here because if what we've been talking about today resonates with you, this is going to feel really relevant.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: If you're a firm owner, if you're an advisor who knows that there's more to financial planning than the numbers, but maybe you're not quite sure how to systematically bring the human side into your practice, I want to tell you about our foundations offering.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: This is a three-tiered offering that Medlerts and I created to help advisory firms integrate financial psychology into every area of support.
• 19:51
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• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: We have done for you quarterly trainings, bi-monthly case consultations, on-call one-on-one client coaching sessions, white label newsletters, client-facing tools, even strategic support that builds your team's confidence over time.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: If you're ready to transform how you show up for your clients, visit BeyondTheFP.com to reach out to us and start the conversation.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: All right, let's get back to the show.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so all right, I'm gonna pull back a little bit because I'm imagining, and I could be wrong, um, but I am imagining um a listener, a financial advisor.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: I always picture Clayton when I do this exercise, um, which I should probably ask him if that's offensive.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's offended that I do this.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: But I always think, think about like what questions like he might have um or thoughts.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so one of the things that's coming up for me that an advisor, a listener might be thinking is they might be thinking, okay, Alex, like this sounds great, like financial self-care and like like filling in this gap.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: But when I'm working with clients, like, how do I, what does that maybe sound like?
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how would I know that they might need um some financial self-care?
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: How do I know that they need you know calm money?
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like what might that sound like?
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: Can you paint us a picture here?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm thinking of so many colleagues who in conversation, whether it's just chatting or you know, real sort of business strategy and development, when they come into my office and they're beyond frustrated and they're telling me about a client.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: And they sat down with that client or many different clients, and they've gone over the portfolio, they've gone over the strategy, check all the boxes, they had the conversation, the client nodded, they'd said they understood, and by the next meeting, nothing Was implemented, right?
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, or only 50%.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: And for a lot of financial planners, that's a hard um place to be that um not the whole strategy was implemented.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_02: And and so again, I also rolled the call money book from um bridging the gap narrative to financial planners and to mental health professionals.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: And here's the reframe that I think that if there's a financial plan or a budget, that financial plan or portfolio is sort of the front door to financial health, right?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: But financial self-care is often sort of the back door for a lot of people, it's kind of like walking through the door again, feels impossible, scary, threatening, all of that.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's what I would call a hot stove moment.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: And when we bring in the therapy, the psychology piece, the human side of money, the advisor may want to ask, what's your experience with money been like?
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: Have you had hot stove moments with money?
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: When you come in contact with money, what does that feel like?
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: Is it painful every time?
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I've had these kind of conversations with planners, and um, you know, again, that's an aha moment, a light bulb moment for them, that they didn't realize that their client in between meetings, even though they've gone over the strategy, they've gone over the portfolio, they've gone over the financial plan in between meetings.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_02: Whenever the client came in contact with money, that contact was painful.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_02: And how do we undo that?
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: And how do we undo it?
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_02: That's the prerequisite.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I know how we do that.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: We buy them the book, call money and send us for them, right?
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, I don't know how to do available now on Amazon.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: Available now on Amazon, wherever you buy books.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I think that um I like everything that you that you shared, that you shared there and just painting that picture of like how a client shows up.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm glad that you actually mentioned like not following through, because I feel like sometimes maybe there's a myth or misconception that um clients in distress or clients that are experiencing a lot of financial stress, like they're gonna be, it's gonna be written all over like their face and they're gonna be actively like dysregulated um, you know, in front of you or like with you.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: But that's not always the case, right?
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: They could be, you know, in need of financial self-care.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: They could be, you know, experiencing like financial stress and not be really anxious um in like in front of you or with you.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: It might show up and it might look like, you know, not following through or avoidance or you know, other things, right?
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like that.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm glad that you mentioned that because those are also um like behavioral indicators, right?
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: That might kind of point to, you know, hey, this client, we might need to ask a few different questions and also send them, you know, Alex's book there.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm curious, like with couples.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I love couples.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so let's talk couples for a second.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what might for like a financial planner, how might that show up as far as you know, a couple or a maybe it's just one partner within the coupleship, like needing some kind of financial self-care.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: What would they see there from a couple?
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_02: I think first of all, thank you for mentioning all of the body language and everything that that goes internally, goes on internally with our bodies, that financial stress may not look like you think it would in the room.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and as you're speaking, I thought of so many clients who are overwhelmed with feelings of shame and saying the wrong thing, or not sounding smart, or um not being smart with money.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_02: So they may actually forego saying something um in order to preserve a certain appearance that they understand.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_02: They will just nod as you're speaking, but in reality, unfortunately, they may not.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: And um, they're again just too self-conscious, afraid to say how they're actually feeling.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_02: And then when, you know, they they leave your office and unfortunately don't necessarily implement, you know, some of the financial plan, maybe not, uh, or any of the financial plan, there may be again more uh it just builds that feeling of shame.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_02: And and it reminds me of of a saying that a a triggered mind is a controlled mind.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's good.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, a triggered mind is a controlled mind.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: So they may be going through fight, flight, and freeze in your office, and they may be in freeze right now.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: And they just they're they their control, they're maybe, I don't know, as severe as blanking out.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that almost like stone wall kind of forward them their emotional uh equilibrium back to a safe place.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: So calm money is that gentle, gentler entry point and a way in that doesn't require you to like force force yourself to um you know adhere to a budget uh and and force yourself past protective patterns uh before you get to self-regulate.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: And um actually I was speaking to a client of mine earlier this week, and um, she was just describing her state of being around money, and and what she said was so often, you know, we as human beings are trying to fit ourselves into a framework, a portfolio framework or financial plan framework.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_02: But it should be the opposite.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_02: It should be that we fit the framework around the human being and their intricacies.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: If only right or at that easy, right?
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think what I what I love about this topic that we're talking about specifically too as it relates to financial advisors, is what I have found, and I'm curious if this is maybe similar for you.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: What I have found is that advisors generally are amazing, like with their clients and recognizing needs, like maybe some financial self-care or um like you know, hey, you probably should give yourself a raise.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like you haven't given yourself a raise in like several years.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like it would be really good like for you to do that.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: I find that most advisors are really good at attuning to um at attuning to their clients.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: But then if we pull the curtain back, sometimes they are not always the best, like on the home front, uh like with their partner or with themselves.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that might look like avoiding conversations or not putting themselves first, uh, you know, financially, not you know, maybe being on like autopilot and creating, I've talked to a lot of advisors with them that can create almost a deeper sense of shame, right?
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like I do this professionally for a living.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of like, you know, us as clinicians, like especially like doing couples therapy.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like there was always this assumption that I had a perfect marriage.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and while I think that Clayton and I have a great relationship, like it is not perfect, nor has it not had its own hurdles and struggles.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think sometimes like there's this, this there can be a shame around like I should, I should be doing on the personal side, like my life, right?
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so I want to maybe just take a moment if you're okay with it.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: I would love to talk to maybe the advisors who maybe need some financial self-care for themselves.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, let's maybe take the focus off of their client.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, for you as the listener, like I want to just talk about you for a second and how can maybe you employ some of this and and create your own financial self-care.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: Alex, you know, what would you say?
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, have you experienced that too, just in your conversations and like the professional community?
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_02: First of all, I'm perfect.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_02: My marriage is perfect, have the perfect credit score.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, me too.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: Same z's.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: But I love the this narrative, and and you actually took me all the way back to the early days.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that you know, when we talked about the Great Recession and you know, the difficulties that um, you know, we as Americans were experiencing, and so many of us were experiencing financial stress, and we as therapists, psychologists, and mental health professionals are supposed to be the experts at handling stress.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't matter if it's financial or any other type of stress, but in this particular realm, I I found, I'm sure you found the same thing, that mental health professionals are not extremely haven't been extremely extremely helpful and knowledgeable.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_02: And what became interesting is the research has shown that mental health professionals or any helping professionals are what what's called money avoidant.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_02: And we're too afraid to talk about money.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_02: We're too afraid of even just dealing with numbers.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: I hear this all the time from that phrase, I'm afraid with numbers of numbers.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_02: I don't do well with math.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_02: And and that's the mental health professional piece of this conversation.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, now for the financial planners, I think it, you know, there's so many parallels there too, that ultimately, you know, we're all human human first.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and we can't see what we can't see, right?
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_02: And it takes it takes a therapist having a therapist to work through some roadblocks, right?
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_02: Some impasses in that same way.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: A financial advisor may need to do some of this work uh similar to the work of uh the self of the financial therapist, the self of a financial advisor, and things like that.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_02: And that's where a calm money comes in.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it comes in because the book itself is, and I should kind of backtrack a little bit if you don't mind.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_02: So the the project unveiled in in the following way.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I mentioned to you that client um that I just spoke to, and she was actually one of the biggest impet impetuses, impetai, for writing, you know, engaging in this in this project because um she lost her job as a as a as the executive.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: She was going through a divorce at the same time, and she was just overwhelmed in in just a state of extreme activation, right?
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_02: And one of my favorite questions in the therapy room is what do you need right now?
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_02: What do you need right now?
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's an experiential question.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_02: What do you need right now to dial down to activation?
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_02: What do you need right now to feel okay, at least in the in the here and now in the moment?
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_02: Let's not jump ahead and think of, you know, tomorrow or even the next minute.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_02: What do you need right now?
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: And she sat there and she kind of, you know, really checked in with herself.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: And she said, you know, when I was in therapy in the past, when she's had, you know, previous family of origin trauma, she said, I used to journal a lot.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_02: And that used to help me a lot.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, Well, there it is.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_02: Let's start there.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: And she started to journal, she started to bring the journaling into the room, and we used to started reading it together.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_02: And then, of course, in the back of my mind, I started thinking, well, why with so many different journaling options out there, why doesn't something like that exist in the financial wellness space?
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_02: So, first came the financial wellness journal, the 90-day um workbook.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: And then once that kind of got, you know, first drafted and come in the half completed, I just felt like there's a book that needs to be put in front of it.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: And the book needed to be born.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm so glad uh, you know, it was born on 212-26 and that it finally came out.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: All of uh, you know, three pounds, two ounces.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: Very healthy, uh, and green, I hear, green, uh as well.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: I I love that idea of journaling uh and in different parts of my own life personally have found it really um really helpful and have certainly um encouraged clients to go through and utilize that.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I would love to know if you're willing to share what are some of the maybe journal prompts in like call money.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm just thinking financial self-care, like, you know, what are what are some of these journal prompts, if you don't mind sharing, maybe a few.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: And when we mentioned the how-to a little bit earlier um in in in our episode, um, the journal really kind of brings together the practical and the emotional and kind of puts it into the same room.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_02: And it gives you like enough structure to create traction, but without a turning money into another place where you fail or another hot stove moment, right?
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_02: Again, I wanted this book to be extremely empathic.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: I wanted this book to be like a financial self-care companion wherever you go.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_02: And so each check-in, it pairs a concrete action with some inner work.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we talk about um like daily reflections.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, we talk about the money weather.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_02: Are you stressed?
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_02: Are you avoidant?
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_02: Are you impulsive or urgent?
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I like that.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: Money weather.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then still kind of making a dual plan around what you need to do today.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, there's weekly check-ins, and um, you're at that point from a weekly standpoint, you're really connecting the dots and looking for patterns and looking what beliefs are driving some of your behavior.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: So there's real accountability.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_02: And when we really, you know, kind of broaden out to uh and zoom out to the monthly reflections, um, we really get to see what's the money story that we're telling ourselves.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's right there on paper.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: And is this a money story that I want to tell?
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_02: And here's the real ability to change that money story.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I like I like that part, the reframe, right?
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of part.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_02: Now, there's also, you know, some practical aspects.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to overwhelm people who are sort of money avoidant and money averse, and they'll put the book down immediately, but there are some helpful tips and um that it creates a certain cadence and a rhythm.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, part of the journal piece is understanding that it it creates a muscle memory, right?
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_02: A muscle memory that then carries and and reshapes our our experience, experience of money and with money.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a rhythm, and this rhythm is simple.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_02: And this is what I call a daily financial hygiene, where you know, you just keep tabs on on your accounts.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: You log in.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_02: In the beginning, it's for some clients, it's it's that huge hurdle that it's almost it seems impossible that to to um jump over.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_02: But with time and regular, you know, tending to that, it becomes possible uh and easier with every step.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_02: We look at you know, cash flow, uh, if that's an issue.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, there's aspects to the journal where we talk about the 24-hour rule for people who are kind of impulsive and have a hard time um with shopaholism, with uh um shopping, and um especially taming the impulse, right?
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_02: So we need a little bit of a buffer.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um and from a similar lens, there's a context of uh having a spending threshold.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_02: So these are really kind of practical, they're not revolutionary ideas, but I guess when you put it all together, it's really again where the practical meets the psychological.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and to summary your point that you made earlier, framing it also from a place of curiosity and being non-judgmental.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I find that, you know, for for clients, for advisors, heck, even for myself, like that's actually the hardest part is becoming curious from a non-judgmental place.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why is it that I respond this way?
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why does my body respond this way when I see uh these numbers or when I start to think about this?
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, like, what is that?
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: What's that about?
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: Where does that come from?
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's actually the for some reason, the hardest part is to become curious and non-judgmental.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so I love that what you're talking about, you know, with this book and workbook with Call Money is that, yeah, is putting maybe together a lot of tips and strategies.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and sure, I hear you like they're not revolutionary.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: Although I would imagine there's probably a lot of them in there that most people are like, good golly, I never thought about it like that way.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: That might be revolutionary.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_02: There might be just reminders, right?
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: It might be reminders.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: When you combine that with curiosity and, you know, a non-judgmental approach, like it really can be really powerful from an experience place.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so I am I am thoroughly looking forward to getting my copy of Call Money and diving in and highlighting uh all the things, all the things in there.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: Now, as we wrap up the show today, I would love maybe if you could just share, like, you know, there's obviously a lot, Alex, that you and I could talk about.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and as we were, you know, joking about before we hit record, we could probably talk for a few hours about a lot of different things.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, in thinking about call money and maybe what you would like for advisors to know or to take away, is there anything else there uh that you would say to them?
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_02: I guess the I I I really want to emphasize and implore that call money, I think of call money as a prerequisite for any financial planner working with clients who are struggling with financial stress.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_02: Because, you know, again, the best plan in the world um won't stick if a client's nervous system is uh, you know, in that threat mode, in fight or flight.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_02: And if they're avoiding shutting down or reacting to shame.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um most important is is you know, taming that inner tiger, inner lion, and restoring their emotional well-being so that they can respond instead of react.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that makes a lot that makes a lot of teaching the clients how to do that through this book.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_02: And also by reading this book yourselves, the the financial planners, you get to learn the language that would resonate with your client.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_02: You will speak the same language as the client, you'll embody some of that non-judgmental stance um that you just mentioned, Ashley.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I love that um I feel like the most one of the most powerful words in mental health and in therapy is notice.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_02: Notice what's happening, because it is non-judgmental, it's disarming.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I actually remember this whole topic being covered by Todd Gash.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you were there at the FTA um uh conference in Denver, and he did an amazing job describing the difference between a closed mindset and an open mindset.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_02: When we have that curious stance, when we just start to notice, it evokes and evolves that um that curiosity that helps us to want more, to learn more instead of just kind of being closed off to what's coming next.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: What a wonderful way to end us here.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, Alex, well, if people want more Dr.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: Alex in their life, uh if they want more of you, if they want more, call money.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, share with us if you if you don't mind where where can they find you?
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: Where can they get more Alex?
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so you and I know each other through the FTA and of course through LinkedIn.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm very involved with the LinkedIn community um as Dr.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_02: Alex and my company's Financial Psychology Center.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_02: So you can find me both on LinkedIn and Instagram.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you can also find me at Financial Psychology Center.com and of course, both of my books, but of course, Call Money is now available on Amazon.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_02: And if you don't mind, I'm gonna share my screen and just show um the QR code that I have for your audience.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yep.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so for those of you watching video right now, you'll be able to see this.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_00: For those of you who are listening, you will have to go into the show notes uh to click on that link there.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and he can uh you can grab that.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_00: You can grab your own copy uh there of Calm Money.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: And for those of you listening who cannot see the book, the cover, it's a nice calming green cover.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: So it really does even aesthetically embody everything that is calm.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Alex, thank you so much for coming on.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for sharing uh all about financial self-care, financial um or calm money, uh, just all the things.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_00: I am so grateful to be able to have this conversation with you.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: For those of you that are tuning in that are listening, thank you for allowing Alex and I into your ears and into your mind today.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: If this conversation resonated with you, I think I speak for both of us in saying that we would love to stay connected.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: We would love to keep that connection going.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_00: You can find me on LinkedIn as well, where I hang out probably way too much, uh, sharing insights on the human side of money and financial psychology.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, if you want more Ashley Kwame, I'm not saying that you do, but if you want more Ashley Kwame, if you want more uh Beyond the Plan, you can check out our monthly newsletter at www.beyondthefp.com.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: But most importantly, make sure that you follow the show, Planning and Beyond.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: Make sure that you follow the show so that you never miss a future conversation like this one.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: And as always, my friends, remember finances don't have feelings, but your clients do.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for joining me on this episode of Planning and Beyond.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you found today's insights valuable and inspiring for both your practice and your personal growth.
• 46:29
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• 46:34
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• 46:40
  SPEAKER_00: For more resources, tips, and to continue the conversation, visit our website at beyondthefp.com.
• 46:48
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• 46:55
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• 46:58
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• 47:01
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• 47:05
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