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Episode 2: Lisa Kuznak · Black Ibis Social Club

• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: This is Alexandru Constantin and you are listening to The Deceneus Review.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: Here at The Review, I like to discuss novels, film, art, and culture from a perspective outside the sclerotic mainstream.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: Therefore, I find the recent trend of young writers turning away from mainstream and embracing independent publishing to be one of the best things to have come out of the collapse of empire and the rise of millenia of digital age.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, independent self-publishing, fiction more so, is rife with problems, one of them being that while we have an eager and exciting writer community, the equally important editorial branch has not caught up with it or been embraced by the new digital fiction world.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: This, of course, means that the independent scene has been flooded with substandard, poorly written trash.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: The other issue with independent writing at this stage is the writers themselves.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: I go on and on about this, but there seems to be an inability for so many to realize that they are free to experiment, to drop the chains of 20th century convention, to move past the preferences of MFA programs and fiction magazines nobody reads.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: We are living in a brave new world of creative possibility.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: Take risk with your writing.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: Experiment.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: Adventure.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: As for me, I buy a lot of books.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of them.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: My Kindle right now has 78 downloaded and unread.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: I also buy a lot of hardcovers.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: I go to independent bookstores and if I find a copy of one of my favorite novels in hardcover, I add it to my library.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: Most of all, I like buying your book.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: I like buying your books.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: That is, I like supporting independent writers.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: So, if your work gets my attention, if your substack interests me, I will buy your book.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think that spending less than I would at Starbucks to support an independent author is more than worth it.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: If I was wealthy, I would invest money in supporting the arts.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: I would sponsor a prize, find a publishing platform.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm not rich, so this podcast is my attempt at supporting a healthy independent community of writers and artists.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I do have to confess, just because I'd buy your novel does not mean I'll read it.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, between my full-time career, a husband, a father, working on my own writing, and this podcast, I just don't have a lot of time.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: But now and then I come across a writer that catches my attention, usually a combination of online presence, topics of conversation, and subject of their work.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: The most recent case is Lisa Kuznak and her debut novel, Palace.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: Kuznak is a regular substack commentator and an independent writer who seems to cross paths with several other characters I know in the scene, so when she recommended her novel a while back I immediately bought it and set it aside for a day when my mood turned towards science fiction.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: That happened to be a few days ago, so I started it up and found myself captivated by it.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: A truly enjoyable bit of sci-fi that embraces vintage pulp tradition while at the same time using contemporary writing and even a bit of stylistic experimentation.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, when I started this podcast, I knew I was going to invite Lisa on here as soon as possible, and here she is.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: Lisa, welcome to The Deceneus Review.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, hello.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, how are you doing?
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm doing all right.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I agree with a lot of the things that you said in your intro there.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think that the indie scene definitely allows for far more experimentation than in traditional publishing.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: So when I'm writing, it's not like I try to, you know, push boundaries, I just kind of I write what I want to write, I write what I want to read.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: So
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: The Deceneus Review
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: Lisa Kuznak
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: So tell me about Palace.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me about Palace.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: I love that book.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: It was a fantastic little bit of sci-fi.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: I actually read it in like a day and a half just sitting on the couch.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: So tell me a bit about some of the ideas behind it.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how did you come up with it?
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it actually started as kind of, at first I thought, has there ever been a folk horror in space?
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: Now, obviously the book is far more than just folk horror in space.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: It wound up evolving into
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: me touching on a whole bunch of other different ideas.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, the first draft looks absolutely nothing like the version that you read.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: And as I wrote, I found myself being inspired by things that, you know, has happened in my own past, especially a lot of stuff with my own, right before I started writing it.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I started researching stuff to do with, you know,
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: mushrooms and all that stuff and it and originally the book had absolutely nothing to do with mushrooms like it was totally uh it came after it was mushroomless and i kept coming across these like it did not no um and i kept coming across these pop sci articles that were like oh mushrooms are the way of the future and um
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: stuff about like all these 3d printers that can like print mycelium so that we don't have to use wood and you know all this stuff and a bunch of future stuff um and i've always been really really inspired by um retro future right so i i've had a lot of people comment like as they're reading it they can picture
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: the 1960s or 1970s rather than the future from the 2020 point of view and so I think that's really interesting because
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know what, I do want to, you know, sorry for cutting in.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's okay.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: Reading Pallas, it felt a lot like I was reminded a lot by like one of the 1960s Star Trek episodes, you know, where they go to the creepy lotus planet and it's weird and kind of like something's going on, but you know, they don't know what's going on.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: And that's, that's, that was a really cool vibe.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: But also for our listeners, when you said,
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: A Folklore in Space
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: When I first sent the book out to beta readers and one of the guys says, this reminds me of The Wicker Man in space, I was like, thank you.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: That is exactly the vibe I was going for.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's always nice when you get that feedback.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's a great feeling when you're like, oh, somebody gets it.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: Somebody is in tune with my weird freaking mushroom fantasy over here, you know?
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: The book changes a lot from that initial vibe.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, that was a big inspiration.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know what it also reminded me of?
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like, just a tiny, tiny bit.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure, it's been such a long time, but like, it reminds me of one of the levels in the first Mass Effect game, where you go to that weird planet with all the grass everywhere and stuff like that.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you ever played that video game.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: But when I first came up with the idea and I started reading all those PopSci articles and started thinking about, well, what if I incorporate fungus and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, the very first Last of Us game came out and my idea was still so new at the time that I'm like, okay, I'm just gonna, I don't want to write something that's going to be too similar to Last of Us.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I actually sat on it for a really long time.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't actually write the first draft until, um,
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: 2019 I think December 2019 so like right at the start of the pandemic that's awesome I've never played I never played that one never played Last of Us I didn't play it my husband did okay so yeah and then I was like oh well everybody's gonna think I'm ripping off Last of Us but it's that it I hope anyway that it's different um I I think there was there must have been something in the zeitgeist at the time I think that uh the BBC
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: Lisa Kuznak
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know what?
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think, you know, I haven't played Last of Us, but I did own it when it was, like, free on the PlayStation Network.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: I just, I don't have time for video games.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: But for all the listeners, there is no Mushroom Zombies if you're concerned about that.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: There's no zombies.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: No Mushroom Zombies.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: Spoiler.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay?
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's completely a different take, and it's actually a fantastically fascinating take, and I really enjoyed, you know,
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: It kind of also reminded me of Dune a little bit, but anyway, I loved it.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: A little bit.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've been sharing it with everybody I know in real life and on the internet.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: I do have a question.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate that.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: So you are a Canadian, you're Canadian, and how is the independent writer scene up there compared to us down here in the deep American South?
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think as far as the online space is concerned, there's really no difference.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: If you're trying to get published in a Canadian lit mag, the environment is a lot different than an American trying to get published in an American lit mag.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: The Canadian literary scene, or can-lit, you know, it's almost like everybody's trying to get featured by the CBC.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not...
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: If you're not writing something very specific, it's not really going to get the attention of a lot of Canadian editors and stuff like that.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like, when I look at agents and stuff like that, most Canadians who are writing genre fiction, especially science fiction and fantasy, because, like, for whatever reason, thriller gets, like, a literary pass these days.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of agents that only take literary will take thriller, but anyway.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: If you're writing science fiction or fantasy or anything like that, you're getting an American agent.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, it's most the Canadian literary scene is very like capital L literary, like introspective immigrant stories and that type of shit.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: Especially like women's fiction.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, basically, women's or immigrant
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to say that's all there is, because I haven't read every single can-lit piece that's ever been published, but that's the general idea.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: If you look at what a CBC reads, you'll get the gist.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: You'll get the gist.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: So, to continue along this question, if I want to interrupt a bit.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: Looking at the Canadian scene and even the American scene we have, what made you decide to go independent?
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, listen, a lot of times independent authors, specifically like self-published, small publishing, we tend to get a rap of being like, oh, lower quality, not accepted.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: But looking at your novel, it's fantastic.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not even going to blow smoke here, but I read a lot of the Hugo-nominated
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: science fiction fantasy award novels and Palace is better than a lot of the stuff I've read in the last few years and I think it's a fantastic novel.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: So what made you go independent?
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: What made you go do things on your own?
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: Mostly because I like doing what I want.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: I don't like people telling me what to do so the indie scene kind of just really fit in with that.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: A spite, a little bit, a little bit of spite.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: Palace was almost signed by a small press
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: And they just to be a little bit Gen Z slang here, they did not pass the vibe check.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so I decided to not sign any contracts.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'll say I'll do it myself.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: I did it myself.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's fantastic.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm happy about that.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, what are some of the challenges of doing it yourself?
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I know the challenges, but maybe the listeners don't.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so what did you what did you come across?
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well, mostly, if anything goes wrong with the book, you only have yourself to blame.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: So, if you can't handle that idea, don't self-publish.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: The cover, the editing, the layout of the book, how you market it, and, like, I'm not a marketer, so a lot of my sales and stuff have been just word of mouth, which is fantastic, and I think a lot of, I think
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: To step back a little bit, I think one of the problems with the indie scene is that a lot of it is writers selling to other writers, and so we need to try our best to actually get readers to talk about our books, because other readers are listening to other readers.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like, if I say make an Instagram book about my post, three people might watch it, but if Bookstagrammer talks about an indie novel, that'll get it a lot more attention.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: right right so there's there's kind of a weird writers need to of course we need to promote our own books right it's like we also go ahead it's like a ghetto you know we're stuck in the ghetto almost yeah yeah it can be really rough oh i was just gonna say there's a lot of um book influencers and stuff that won't even accept indie novels you try to if you try to ask a lot of people like hey do you want to take a look at my book
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: and you're an indie author and they won't even look at it.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a huge challenge is getting readers to pay attention to your book and readers to talk about your book.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: Right, because they're out there.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: And by the way, this is me, I'm going to try to become a book influencer here with this podcast.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: So go ahead, like, share across YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I will become the indie book.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: I will shill all day, every day, multiple times a week.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: But no, you hear a lot of people say, nobody reads anymore, books are dead, novels are dead, the novel's dead, nobody reads.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then I live in a pretty small to medium town in South Carolina in the United States, which is, you know, the South.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: and I also prior to moving here I lived in Los Angeles and even here in my small South Carolina town I know three different book clubs okay my wife's in a book club with her with our neighbor and they meet up once a month and they read tons of books
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: At my work, there's a bunch of early 20s girls that have a book club and they talk about books.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: They're always carrying novels around.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: They're always walking around work with novels.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: And these are not like MFA people or other writers themselves.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: These are just regular normie readers.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then I know another group that also reads a bunch, right?
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: So there are readers out there, but we have to be able to get our books into their hands.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the bridge we have to gap because we don't have the power, you know,
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, here's the other thing too.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: Even traditional publishers don't know how to do that.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like when that whole Penguin Random House trial thing was going on and basically the CEO is basically admitting that they don't actually know what they're doing and if there's a bestseller it's almost like by chance.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I think us indie authors can cut ourselves some slack a little bit when it comes to that because it's a challenge.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's a big challenge.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: And it's almost always just word of mouth.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: Lisa Kuznak
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: Lisa Kuznak
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: And the other thing that's missing, and I've gone on and on about this on Substack and on my old newsletter, is that there isn't a very good critical editorial element in The Independent Scene.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: There's so much back-patting, you know, buy this book, it's great, buy this book, it's great, but there's no real, you know, real reviews, real conversation because nobody wants to hurt anybody's feelings.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: So then we let crap get through and then it basically pollutes the entire pond.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: And that's something that we need to work on, you know, that's hopefully something I'm trying to work on a lot by doing these reviews and having you guys come on here and we can talk about books all day.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: Would you agree with that?
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: I do.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: Now, taste being subjective, there's
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I wouldn't want to say to someone, don't publish your book because, you know, it's not good.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: Because you never know, there might be someone out there that it could be their perfect book, right?
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I wouldn't say like, you know, don't publish a book if you're still an amateur or whatever.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: This is the freedom of the internet.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: You can put out whatever you want.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's what I love about Substack.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: I can put out a short story, warts and all, and people are still reading it.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: And that's fantastic.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: However, that said, if you can't afford an editor, like I can't afford a developmental editor.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's just not in the cards.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: But what I will do is I'll get beta readers, I'll get critique partners, I'll get multiple eyes on my book.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have to agree with everything that a beta reader says or what a critique partner says.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, there's a lot of times where, you know, a critique partner might say like, I don't understand what you mean.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: Lisa Kuznak
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: And just like I said last week, to use the Cormac McCarthy quote over and over and over is that books are made of books.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: Books are made of books and one of the massive failures I see in people, in independent writers,
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: in you know our communities like Substack and the blog sphere is that you have a bunch of guys writing that don't read they don't have oh yeah they don't have this base they don't have this like you know you have people get on podcasts and say well you don't have to read the old stuff at all you don't have to read anything you know just I do what I want and then they put out a giant yeah they put out a giant turd because
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: What they do might be original today, but it's been done a hundred years ago, numerous times, and it's some old crap over and over because they don't have the solid base of the literary tradition and the conversation with other authors.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: And that is one of the failures.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: There's a high level of illiteracy in the independent book scene.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: and The Deceneus
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: The Deceneus Review
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think with fantasy especially, fantasy is an extremely incestuous genre.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's really disappointing because there's so, so, so much that you can do under the fantasy umbrella.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I think
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like, there's this really popular trope that, oh, Tolkien ruined fantasy.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think Tolkien ruined fantasy.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: Tolkien did a pretty good job with his books.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's the fans who are to blame.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I am a fantasy fan.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so I
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like I'm coming from within that culture, and so that gives me a little bit of permission to critique it.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: But for example, if someone says, oh, this book in particular, I'm not going to throw shade at any specific books, but I think we've had a similar conversation before, so you can probably picture the book.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, the writing is so poetic.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: And when I read the book, it's like, I don't think the author has read a single poem in their life.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: and I don't think the reader who said that this book is poetic has ever read a single poem in their life.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's important not just to read, but to read widely.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: Going back to like beta readers, there's been quite a few times when I can tell if, speaking of fantasy especially,
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: My next book coming out is a literary fantasy and I've actually had a couple beta readers drop it because the first third of the book doesn't even have any magic in it.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's it's a literary fantasy.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so I can tell when the feedback I'm getting is from someone who hasn't read much outside of their whatever their chosen genre is.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so if I were trying to write a more
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: very tropey, very standard fantasy.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: I would take their feedback with more salt, I guess.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's absolutely true, right?
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, you're just not really that well read.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: So you don't get it, you know?
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, no, the fact that they did drop it is feedback in itself.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it tells me, okay, I'm not writing a book that is for a standard
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: The Deceneus Journal
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: science fiction era novels.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: Last year I read Dying Inside by Silverberg and that is like the perfect example of why the idea of genre is kind of ridiculous.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: It really should be on a literary shelf but
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: Lisa Kuznak
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: kind of reimagine what science fiction could be about.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean if you look at a lot of the pulpy sci-fi that came out in like the 50s it's almost like schlocky and so they were looking at that stuff and decided to reimagine it and then the same something similar happens like I'm waiting for something similar to happen with fantasy because pre-Tolkien the era of like Clark Ashton Smith
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: and H.P.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: Lovecraft and all that stuff, Lord Dunstany.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: There was so much variety in what qualified as fantasy and then post Tolkien it became, especially in the 80s and 90s,
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right, just sclerotic, basically stuck, you know, it became sclerotic stuck in the same scenes, you know, massive tomes of people walking around, you know, doing people walking around, like political religious stuff, you know, and having arguments about the chosen one or whatever the hell like 99% of massive tome fantasy is.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: And look, I get accused of being a fantasy hater.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not I love Tolkien.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: I love Lord Dunsany or Dunsany or however you say it.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: Lisa Kuznak
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: Jack Vance is probably my favourite author.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: I will fangirl about Jack Vance all day.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: And Lioness, yeah.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: Lioness is probably, and a lot of people who love Tolkien will fight with me, but Lioness is probably the best fantasy trilogy ever written.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: No, I agree.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: I love it so much.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: And you know why?
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's so out there.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's so different like and it goes back to my kind of my once again my opening point is like you're independent you can write fantasy why is your fantasy the same thing that every video game every movie you know it's the same there's nothing fresh and crazy nothing like out there you know I want my fantasy to be more like um
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: and David Bowie.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: Lisa Kuznak
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, fantasy, fantasy will give you the permission to be super duper weird.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I love the genre, because when you do find gems like that, it's, it's so special.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like I was saying before, I think the whole separation of genre from literary is complete marketing.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's just to organize a bookstore shelf.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: I, if it were up to me, there wouldn't be any division like that.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: But that said,
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: when you talk to fans of a specific genre and that's like all they read then the shelving system is really convenient because they can just go to the fantasy shelf and pick a fantasy book and
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: Lisa Kuznak
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: I was reading Michel Houellebecq the other day, and I was reading his novel The Possibility of an Island, and you read that novel, and it's a freaking science fiction novel.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: A novel about the far future, you know, post-humans, an apocalypse, freaking reincarnation, like biological reincarnation using light technology.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: And, of course, but it's a literary novel.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's considered a literary novel.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's shelved under literary in Barnes & Noble or wherever you buy your books.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: The Deceneus Review
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: So, I think there's a huge overlap and I agree with you, I hate the idea of genre, you know, I hate the idea of like individual ghettos everywhere.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's science fiction that's literary and I think there's literary books that are not, that are like genre, you know, deep down in heart.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, to go on, we talked a little bit about Vance, but what are some of your other inspirations, writers, movies, novels?
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I can get inspiration by just about anything.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: I joke a lot about the struggles of my, you know, like ADHD, but in reality, it's kind of a superpower, like I can look at an exit sign and then get an idea.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: So, um...
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, just about everywhere, just about everywhere.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: Movies, people I've known, dreams, as cliche as that is.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: Just, you can find a source of, like, the seed of an idea in just about everything.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm looking right now over there, a box of Polaroid pictures.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: Why not write a story about someone with a Polaroid camera?
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe there's something about the camera specifically and they walk around, whatever.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: Lisa Kuznak
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think I have a copy of that one actually.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, say cheese and die.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, say cheese and die.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there was like two or three of them.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I can I can get inspired by just about anything.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's executing.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's executing the idea.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's the challenge, you know, the challenge.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: Because ideas are a dime a dozen.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: And that's one of the reasons why I don't keep a notebook for ideas because
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: There's just so many in my brain that I have to have some sort of natural filter and I feel like if I write them down then I've made permanent a crappy idea and we don't want to do that.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I know a lot of people do live with their notebooks in their pocket and they're constantly writing stuff down but that's not me.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: I let my brain just filter out all the bad ideas.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: Also, the downside of keeping a notebook with your thoughts and ideas is that it can be used against you in a court of law when the FBI finds it.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's true.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's always a good thing.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we don't need evidence.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: So, along those lines, have you read anything good lately?
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: Any novels you've really enjoyed?
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I just today finished a Jack Vance book.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: Surprise, surprise.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: And that was really, really fun.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: Half the book was him, just the main character, just griping about how he wasn't paid enough.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: Which one was it?
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: Masked Fairy.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's one of the guy in reach books, but it's not a sci-fi stuff.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: A standalone.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's the word I'm looking for.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: The last book I finished before that one was an indie novel called Children of Doroh by Emma Clark and if you like philosophy in your sci-fi, pick that one up.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think she describes it as Dostoevsky in space.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: yeah it's it's that gets my attention that gets my attention.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: Dostoevsky's my favorite.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: And she's she is on Substack too so check her out.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: Okay Dostoevsky's my favorite writer so anything whenever somebody says Dostoevsky I'm like oh okay I'll go I'll go swing in on that real quick and she's she's on Substack you know we'll link to her on uh yes she is on the on the podcast page when uh when I find her because I like to share this kind of stuff with everybody
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah and it's kind of funny because I actually started, I discovered her book right after Notes was first announced on Substack which was right when I first started mine so it would be about April, May-ish of last year and
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I started reading it then and because my brain is the way it is I'm always reading multiple books at once but sometimes I'll put a book down and then for no reason I just don't pick it back up again and then months go by and it's like oh yeah I was reading that book.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: So it took me a long time to read it but it was really worth it.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: It was nice to read some science fiction that was very very philosophical.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: As much as I do like pulpier sci-fi of course
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: you know with laser guns and all that stuff um it was nice it was a good read and um sorry my my brain just blanked because i was just like oh my gosh it's been almost a year it's been almost a year since i started my sub stack wow in april it'll be a year um and i've i've discovered quite a lot of like like you said you discover a lot of books you grab them i don't always have time to read them and i will eventually get around to them um maybe i just hoard them yeah that's what i do i have
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think my Kindle's gonna crash because of all the stuff I have loaded on it.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even know how much space it has left on it.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: You're a Vance fan, alright?
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: So, I know the guys over at Pylon Press, which is a fantastic little indie publisher, and those guys are Vance fanatics, you know?
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: They are all about Vance, and I've sat through so many conversations with those guys about their obsession with Vance.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: What makes you attracted to Vance's work?
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: You said he was your favorite fiction writer.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: Just the way that he uses language, his wit, his imagination.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: probably my favorite thing about him and his writing is that he just he just writes about whatever he wants in space like that's he uh oh my gosh like okay so for example the the demon prince's books i don't know if you read those i've i have not read those but there's like the subplot okay there's this subplot where basically
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: he uses a bunch of laundered money and he invests it into like this magazine and then so that he he's able to like spy on these like evil guys through this money laundering scheme like magazine thing that he's propped up oh my gosh it's just it's so silly um i love that he um will describe very like and he's not the only one that does this and this is one of the reasons why i do like sci-fi from that era because it just tickles me like describing analog technology
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: but in space or like people smoking and it's like the future people are still smoking in the future apparently so this is like really it just it just tickles me uh describing how he he forges these uh documents or photographs or something like that if i recall uh using like scissors and glue in space it's just so funny and then his but the other thing too is that his uh
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: heroes almost always like that standard like Vance-ian hero is kind of like a a sly kind of trickster kind of like he doesn't write like action heroes he doesn't even with like the demon princes and with like planet of adventure there there is fun stuff that happens like the the heroes will
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: Lisa Kuznak
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: Language is a big one and actually when I was in grade 8 I almost failed because I skipped school to go to the library so much and during this span of time I was inhaling books I went through so so so many books because that's literally all I did I just go to the library and I'd sit and I just
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: Lisa Kuznak
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: The name Jack Vance was the first time that I had ever really like started seeking out a specific author.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: I was hunting down this third book for years.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: I finally found it, read it, it was awesome, fantastic.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah that was Jack Vance and actually Patricia A McKillop too was another one that they those were the first two authors that their names have like stuck in my brain at that age.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: You picked up everything by them, right?
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: Everything I could find by them.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: If you like poetic fantasy, pick up Patricia A. McKillop.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: I recently revisited a book that I hadn't read since I was a teenager by her and it was called Song for the Basilisk and it's just so beautifully written.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_01: yeah so she's she's another pro stylist that i that i um am very influenced by too okay i will add that i will add that i will add her to my to my list you know i i love linus right and i love i think i forget what the order of the books is soldier's garden is the first there's the green pearl and maudoc green pearl and then maduke maduke or however you say it i actually don't know how to pronounce it it sounds like that m-a-d-o-u-c
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: and that's the one that has the the changeling girl the the princess that's replaced by and she's such a such a great character the the changeling and she's such a yeah she's fun the whole thing is so fantastic she's a spunky little girl yeah and advance just makes up words like to this day from lioness i have no idea what a sandestin is or whatever it's like his little magician helper
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: He invented a ton of words.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I think people have actually published dictionaries just for words that Vance has invented, which I think is just, it's just wonderful.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's just so much fun.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: Have you ever read anything by Skye Herrenstrom?
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't yet, but he is actually on my TBR.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: I have, um, I do have a copy of, um, Thun?
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: Thun's Vision?
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Thun's Vision.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: T-H-U-N-E.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: Sky is very much, very much inspired by Vance and his stuff is fantastic.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: He is, he is probably one of the best independent kind of fiction writers I know.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: And he's a weird guy because he does not have social media.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: He doesn't care about anything.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: He doesn't, you know, he doesn't shill.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: He just writes his amazing stuff, puts it out.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: And that's really the way to be.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: It never takes the heat off, you know?
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's fantastic.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well, one more question before I let you go.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: What what do you have planned for the future?
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: I know you have a novel coming out soon.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: Want to tell me about it a bit?
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: So February 27th is the release date of the High Women Kennedy Thornwick.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: And that is the literary fantasy that I was talking about before.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have a copy of the book right now to read the blurb.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: But if you go to my sub stack, do I have a copy of the book?
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think I do.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: I have the blurb on there.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: Basically, it's kind of like if you mixed Snatch and Barry Lyndon, but with magic.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: So that gives a kind of an idea of the vibe I'm going for.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: Also, the book version of Cool Hand Luke, but not necessarily the movie version of Cool Hand Luke.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I'm intrigued.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: Barry Lyndon?
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we've got Prison Escapes, we've got Bank Heist, we've also got some existential, you know,
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: Examination of Identity and Friendship and you know it's all it's all good stuff and that comes out of February 27th I picked the release date and so that's that's the nearest thing on the docket and then I've also got is with Beta Readers right now it's a sci-fi that is
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: A little bit more Vance-ian than Palace.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's very kind of inspired by more like Edgar Rice Burroughs kind of stuff.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: But it's also secretly kind of an environmentalist novel.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then I've also got a first draft.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's the first book that I wrote 100% on the typewriter.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm currently transferring it from paper to my laptop, which is very time intensive.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: so that's that's not going to get ready for for beta readers or anything for quite a while because that's still still kind of in progress
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's a lot of stuff.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's more stuff than I have.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: I've always got something.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: I've always got something.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: I can't, I can't ever not have anything on the go.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: With my sub stack, I basically I started my sub stack not just as a way to kind of like show my books, but also because I don't really write short form stuff very often.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_00: I thought that having, starting my sub stack would be a good way to practice my short stories and stuff like that.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it was a way to like post my poetry and, and um,
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_00: Lisa Kuznak
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: Oh no, good, I'm glad I could inspire.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like she's been wanting to do some gear acquisition syndrome, yeah.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, she's been into film cameras now.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for coming on, okay?
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for coming on The Deceneus Review.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you come back.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you come back many more times, okay?
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_01: I want to have the same people over and over because I love these conversations.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_01: And most of all, thank you to my listeners.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then, of course, if you've enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, like, share across all the platforms because the more likes and the more shares we get, the more I can keep doing this.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: And thank you very much.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: Have a good day, guys.