Latest / Messy Minded Mama / Episode 25 - When Pregnancy Doesn’t Continue for Both of You

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Episode 25 - When Pregnancy Doesn’t Continue for Both of You · Messy Minded Mama

• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Messy Minded Mama, a podcast for moms who look managed but might feel a bit messy on the inside.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Kate.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm Jen.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: And we are here creating space for real talk about motherhood, mental health, and the invisible load so many women carry.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to Messy Minded Mama.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: You have just Jen here today, but I am with a very special guest, my sister-in-law, Carolyn.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for joining me today.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, thanks for having me.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I am so excited you're here.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: You guys are gonna get to know all about Carolyn today and all about why she's my very special guest.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: But before we jump into our conversation, just wanted to give a quick little disclaimer for today's episode.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: We are here because we want to talk pretty openly about pregnancy loss, grief, and what it has been like for us just to navigate our lived experience together.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: And if you are currently going through loss, if you're pregnant after a loss, or maybe this is just a tender topic for you, we always want you to know that you can leave this conversation behind.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: You can stay for a little bit if you choose to, but most importantly, take care of yourself and listen only if it feels right for you.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: If it doesn't, that's okay too.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: You can always come back to this episode at another time if and when you choose to.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: So today, why we're here?
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: We're here because I think timing-wise, we really wanted to use this space to further recognize pregnancy and infant loss during this awareness month.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: And really just because Carolyn and I have a lived experience that I think so many people go through that we don't always often talk about, maybe in this way or as openly about kind of what it's like.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: So today you're gonna get to hear us, maybe for the first time, getting to talk about our experience of loss in pregnancy on my end, Carolyn having a successful pregnancy on her end, and really just us actually having a more in-depth conversation than we have ever had before around this topic.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, we're gonna do it.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna talk about it.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: We are gonna do it, and happy that I can do this with you again because you know you are my very special guest and one of my favorite humans in the world.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: So happy that it's a safe space for us to be able to talk about this and just reminisce a little bit on um our past together.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe we start, Carolyn, by just sharing a little bit about the beginning of us.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe how are we related?
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: How are we connected?
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to take that one on?
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so my husband is Jenny's husband, Tyler's older brother.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: I think they're about 18 months apart, so they're they're very close in age.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and very close, you know, brothers.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: They're they have a close friendship and relationship as well, which which is special.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um Tyler uh went to college in Colorado and was there after.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: And then um, so I and and Wit and I went to college um at University of Rhode Island, and so I met Tyler over the years when he would come home to visit.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: And um, I was dating my husband, Wit.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: And um, so yeah, I got to know Tyler over the years, and then Tyler and Jenny started dating, and so we met, and our relationship gradually, you know, grew stronger, and we got to know each other, and whenever we were together, we always had so much fun together.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the boys would kind of be like, they're like friends on their own, they're not just you know, we eventually became sister-in-laws.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I don't know if you want to add anything more to that story, but we eventually became sister-in-laws, and honestly, it didn't even matter anymore that that we were sister-in-laws because we were just really close friends.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I think part of that grew to our very close friendship because you and Tyler moved back to um or moved to Boston um you know, years into your relationship, but before you got married.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right?
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, we got engaged out there and then we got married a year after, yeah.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: So um when you guys lived here for a number of years, we got to hang out all the time and you get closer, and um we we like hung out as friends, and even though we were family, we hung out all the time and we're really close, and we had so much fun together in those pre-child years.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, those are some of the best memories for me is just us being back there, getting closer, getting to know you more, right?
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: Because we just had like little trips here and there that we got to visit each other before that time, but the kind of two years, I think, pre-kids that we were both early in marriage and got to experience that together, and yeah, just became like really close and so grateful for that.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's funny.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: We always probably said that you know the guys were lucky to have found us at the end of the day, but really I think we both genuinely feel like we're the lucky ones that they kind of pulled us together and that we were able to become a part of this family and have this close relationship together.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: And and even though now you're back in Colorado and we're still in New England, um, our relationship has stayed close and you are one of my very best friends, and I'm so lucky to have you.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I'm gonna cry before we even get into anything else on this topic today.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: I love you too.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: You're the best.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, let's move into what we're here to talk about today.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: So we talked about a little background of you know, two about two years of Tyler and I living back east, living in Boston, spending a lot of time with you guys.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I can remember during those years, like I said, we were engaged, we got married, and then quickly after that, I think we were both kind of in this realm of when are we gonna start a family?
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: And talking about this with our husbands and kind of like planning out what the future looked like.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: And then I think for me, at least that became like, okay, I'm not just excited to, you know, become moms, but to become moms together.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like, when is this?
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: When is your timeline?
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: What is going on?
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: And we would have conversations around, okay, what what is this, and try to at least be on the same page with okay, what could this really look like when it comes to building out a family and having cousins that are close together as well?
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I um I'm a planner, so I think I was very clear that my plan was that we would have um, as we called it, our last summer of freedom.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and we had a fabulous um summer where we did everything that we could possibly want to do.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, now I also realize we can do anything we want to do with our fabulous two children, but it was different.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: And so I said, we're gonna have this summer and then we're gonna start trying and really not knowing what that journey was gonna be like.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um so yeah, then we dove in.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and we were in the same boat.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think Tyler surprised me because he was a little ahead of schedule from where I thought he would be.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: I was like ready before he was, but we had this conversation.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, oh, he's actually ready.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, we had similar kind of timeline when it came to okay, I think we're ready just to like see where this can go.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then we both got pregnant pretty quickly when after that happened, right?
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe let's take it back to the night that Carolyn is a planner, but Carolyn is also like you can't get anything past her kind of woman.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I remember again having like these conversations leading up to this of like, oh my gosh, okay, like I think we're all like on the same page, and this is gonna be really fun.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then we found out that we were pregnant, and we had I had friends in town, I had like two girlfriends visiting from Colorado, and then you and Wit, and I think some cousins, we all like came and had the night together and we went to the Red Sox game.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like I had just found out I was pregnant, and we weren't really at a place where we were telling that many people yet.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: I knew we would tell you guys early, but didn't know when we would tell you, and didn't want to share the news with everybody there.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: But I remember you that night just being like something's different with you.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: You're like, you need to tell me sketchy.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: You were acting sketchy.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I was sketchy because it's like here's my best friend that has been like, we've been talking about this, and now I like have to keep this sneaker from her.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I can't do this.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: That was impossible.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm sure I was acting really sketchy.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: You were like smiley but sketchy.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_02: So it was all just very suspicious.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I think what ended up happening that night after Carolyn, you know, was calling me out probably multiple times on like, I know something's going on, you need to tell me.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: We let everyone, you guys stayed the night at our house that night in Boston at our place, and then everyone kind of left the next morning and we like couldn't hold it in anymore.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: So we called you as you were like driving back to Rhode Island, I think, and just shared the news because we couldn't keep it in anymore.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and then that's how we were.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: Do you remember what happened one week, two weeks?
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even know the timeline.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, I think one week or two weeks later, yeah, we realized that we were pregnant as well, and you know, kind of surprised that that it happened quickly for us, which is a blessing.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: And um, and knowing that we had to tell you guys right away because we just couldn't believe the remarkable timing.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that we, you know, thought we were gonna have kids within weeks of each other.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: And looking at due dates and being like, oh my gosh, this is this is crazy.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I think from there it became quickly like planning out again, that's very early pregnancy.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: We were probably both four weeks along, I imagine, when we found out um, maybe four or five weeks, but we were very early along, and I think it quickly became like, okay, so our maternity leaves are gonna line up and we're gonna like be able to be off together from work and we're gonna have summer babies.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's totally summer babies and be able to enjoy it and get together in Boston and Rhode Island and just drive to see each other all the time was the vision I think that quickly took shape and formed from there.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right, and a lot of yeah, a lot of excitement about it, and and I think that um, you know, our husband's parents, especially mom, was just like absolutely beside herself um thinking about it all.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_02: And it was, yeah, it was pretty crazy.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think next it becomes the when things changed, right?
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the maybe more complicated part of the story that we're headed into today, but I'm I'm laughing, I'm smiling, I'm all the things because that was such a joyous time for us having those conversations.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I love like reflecting on those moments of everything that we had in those early days because I do think it was a clear indication of just the closeness that we had for each other going into that.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but then also how that continued to like stay true into where we're headed next with this story.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: So nine weeks into my pregnancy, I went in for my first ultrasound and obviously super excited as anyone would be with their first baby in general, with any baby going into Hear the Heartbeat.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: And unfortunately, we were, I think the statistic is one in four that of loss, and we were we were literally one in four at that point in time.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: I had you and I had two other really good friends of mine that we were all due within weeks of each other, and that statistic has always stuck with me because of that reason.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: But um, we were the one in four, and we went in and did not hear the heartbeat that day.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: Devastating day for us.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I wouldn't wish that on anybody.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: I know there's so many people out there with stories similar to that and stories that are a lot different than that.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: So today is really just sharing our own experience through this, not speaking for what anyone else's journey has been like because it's very unique depending on the situation, depending on the person.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: But that was a lot.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: That was devastating, that was hard, that was all the things that I can think of.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: And meanwhile, Carolyn's pregnancy, thankfully, was continuing on and was healthy.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: But we had this, I don't I think awkward, I don't know how else to describe it, but kind of this very awkward time for us to navigate um after that happened.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll pause there.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if anything just from that like early reminders.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: We have plenty of time together after that that we'll talk about.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: But in anything in those early days, like when you guys found out or anything that came to your mind or Wit's mind.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, of of course we were utterly devastated for you guys, um, and and also and also for ourselves, you know.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: We we had lost this potential um niece or nephew as well, and we're just absolutely heartbroken, and and all of those plans and dreams and excitement just crashed for for all of us.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then also just some fear of this happened to them, could it, could it happen to us too?
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't even really realize how common it was at that point either.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then just not knowing how to be there for you, and and we'll talk about that a lot more.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, in those early days and and you're going through um the different steps of of the loss, wanting to be there for you and check in on you, but not knowing if I was the right person to be checking on you because I didn't want you to feel like I was rubbing it in your face that my pregnancy was continuing, or even if you know, not saying anything except for how are you, just not not being sure if I was the person you needed and wanted, but wanting to be there for you because you're my best friend, and just just simply not knowing how often or when or what to say, and just feeling really, really conflicted um in those days.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think one thing you brought up just then is this thought of were we gonna end up in the same boat?
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I like I appreciate you sharing that.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: I never even really thought about that of when we went in being two weeks ahead of you pregnancy-wise.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: You probably hadn't even gone in for a scan yet yourself, right?
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: Or did you go for an early one?
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: I don't remember.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: I can't recall.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: I I vaguely remember that perhaps my ultrasound was earlier than yours because I don't distinctly remember being scared about that possibility, and I think I probably would have been terrified waiting to hear that heartbeat.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_02: So I I for some reason recall my ultrasound maybe being at like six or seven weeks.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: So I feel like it was before.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I even remember like sending pictures to you and us being excited, and then being excited for you guys to have that same opportunity.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: And then the news that we got was just so heartbreaking.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: Now that you say that, that does sound like the right timeline because I don't remember afterwards you like having to call and be like ours is ours is good, right?
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: After we had shared the news.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I do think we already knew that yours was looking good at that point in time.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I think one thing you also mentioned is just how to show up for me.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the the things that I know we'll get into in this conversation today, but is the challenges and being able to show up for each other.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: Because I also didn't know, I didn't know how to take care of myself in those moments, but I also didn't know how to hold, I didn't know how to hold both feelings.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't know how to and to do it.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think I did it very well when I look back on it.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because I just don't think I knew how.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I imagine there's so many people that struggle with this really deep grief that, you know, was I'd never felt anything like that before when it came to a loss like that and and the grief I was going through, and still being really excited for you, and again, other friends that I mentioned that were going through the same thing, but not just not knowing how to navigate that and hold space.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I think we were both in this place, it sounds like, of just not knowing how to show up for each other.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_02: Right, and I think that you hit it really well, and I don't I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing, truly.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um because I I don't remember you ever making me feel bad.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, I felt bad about the situation, but that was never anything you ever portrayed on me or put on me.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: You continue to support me and be excited for me every step of the way.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um but I hope you also knew at the time that I was absolutely there and you could have been like, this sucks and it isn't fair.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: And you know.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um but it was just tricky.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: We just, you know, and I don't, and I'm very thankful that I don't think it affected our relationship or our friendship at all, thank God.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_02: Or at least I didn't I didn't feel that it did.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I think that that's really lucky because it it really it could have.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, totally agree.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think that yeah, I think I'm a type of person that when that I'll just kind of separate myself when I need like the space, and I just remember doing that a lot of even so let's fast forward a little to Thanksgiving, which was honestly not that it was like two weeks after.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think I I found this out and and went through a DNC and had that like November 10th and Thanksgiving, you know, right around the corner from there.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: And we were going to your house for Thanksgiving, and it was a joint Duncan family Thanksgiving and chicken.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: So your family was there as well.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: I distinctly remember, and I don't know if you do, but you told I found this out later, but you had pulled your family aside, and you were like, please don't over-celebrate my pregnancy, let's just now talk about it if we don't need to, because Jenny's going through something really tough and Tyler, and I don't want us to like make that worse for them.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: Do you remember like even pulling your family aside and saying that?
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't remember it just off the top of my head, but when we were talking about this podcast, you had reminded me, and it it that did come right back where they had been there ahead of time.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I even remember being like, Do you guys still want to come?
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like, of course we want you to be here, but like, are you ready to see us?
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: And my sisters both had young kids there, I think like two-year-old, two and three-year-old, something maybe like that.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, or maybe older.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: Anyways, um, no, I yeah, I think they probably had like they both had two kids.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_02: So there was like four and two, and you know, three-year-olds there.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_02: And um, being like, Are you sure this is something you you want to do?
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: We want you to be here, but like this is your call.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think before you guys came down, I did tell my family.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't want to like tell them your private stuff, but at the same time, I thought it was important that they know so that um they didn't make you feel uncomfortable or just like put it in your face.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_02: I just I just felt so horrible and I just didn't I just didn't know how to act, but I knew that I knew that you feeling comfortable was more important and that I had plenty of time the rest of the weekend to celebrate with my family.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: And like learning that later, because again, I don't remember how I I mean I knew I knew everyone's pretty quiet about it, right?
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: So like I think it just naturally I was probably picking up on like, oh, they're all just trying to be cautious around us, how nice.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm like, oh my gosh, for you to be that's just such a selfless act in those moments to be again, you were experiencing something very joyful, and for us to be in complete opposite sides of the spectrum in what you must have been feeling for yourself and what I was feeling for myself, and then this like beautiful way to just like show up for each other.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's just it again, you said it earlier.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: Our relationship, our friendship, our everything like has did not change, and I think that's a testament to just showing up for each other in like the good, the bad, the ugly, right?
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: When you need to, and was you know, not surprised at all that you did that, but just like really touched that you did that.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think that people don't always know what to say, and I didn't know what to say, and I don't know that there's a right answer, you know.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: There's not like a one size fits all, this is what you say when someone has gone through a pregnancy loss.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: But I don't I don't know that you need a script.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's just, you know, I mean you tell me because because you went through it, but just how are you?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm here if you need me, and you know all the other explanations or things that people say, like it's it's I don't I don't think it's necessary, you know.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: People don't need to come up with with different things to try to make you feel better, just say I'm here, you know, and and that's what I was trying to do and and portray without crowding you or you know, saying the wrong thing.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and you think that's a fear, right?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: You're not going to show up for someone the way that like you want to or need to.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I again I had that on my side too in a different way of like, how am I still gonna show joy and still show up and be happy when I'm experiencing this?
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I do, I think one thing that I remember the whole family doing really well is just being really understanding and giving grace when we change plans or something.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I even remember for that Thanksgiving trip, we were supposed to stay another night, and there was a point where I told Tyler, like, I'm just having a really hard time.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: And again, you guys did all these amazing things for me.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: So it wasn't even because of anything that was happening around me.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: It was just like I just needed space to be able to just wanted to be home.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: So we I think we booked a, I know we did.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: We booked a last minute trip to Nashville.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: And Tyler and I were like, sorry, we're gonna leave a night early and we're actually gonna go home and pack and we're gonna go like on this trip.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: And we just like skipped town for a couple nights.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: And it was what we needed, right?
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: But then just the grace, the understanding, and everyone just being, yes, please do what you need to do was, you know, absolutely.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so nice to have.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, one thing that I definitely remember that is coming up for me today as I like think back on this, is me just continuously saying, I just hope I'm pregnant again by the time the due date comes.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: There was something about it for me that was like, I just didn't want that time, I didn't want to feel the grief, I don't know, double down, I guess, is like how I was thinking is like if I wasn't pregnant by the due date of that baby I lost, then I was gonna be in a worse place.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think that's the one thing when you and I would be hanging out together that I would just continuously say to you, and you were just supportive, okay.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well then let's, this is what we're gonna hope for.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: This is what we're gonna, you know, be thinking about and um hoping that that would happen.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm I'm one of the lucky ones, right?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like I got pregnant again very quickly and that happened.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: I was pregnant before my due date, I was pregnant before your baby shower.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like I remember all these like little moments in our time together as we were like kind of going along this journey and having other things that happened in your pregnancy that then I honestly felt like I was able to show up in a more joyful way.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: I was scared to death that pregnancy, right?
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like I didn't know what was gonna happen.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's really hard being pregnant the second time after you experience that, I think, or anytime you're navigating something that is scary.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: But I remember just being like, okay, now I can at least take this deep breath.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: And then I felt like I could show up for you in like a different way.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember loving your baby shower and like being there and being able to help out.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I just I just wonder sometimes like, would I have been able to show up in like those ways for you, or how would I have been able to navigate that?
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: What would you have felt if if that hadn't happened and if I wouldn't have been able to like be there for you and maybe the ways that I ended up being able to be?
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: Right, and I think we all um like Wit and I were just so relieved and and happy for you.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and also like almost in a selfish way, we were relieved for ourselves because we felt like you know, we could celebrate with you guys and be able to, you know, act more normal, um, whatever that means, around you guys and share your joy.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think there was still some hesitation of, you know, we don't want to just move on and say, like, act like your loss never happened, you know, and and still acknowledge that and give that space, but at the same time be like, okay, phew, we're still gonna have babies close together, so everything's okay, you know.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um kind of stuck in between those two feelings, but but again, just just immense relief that you guys were were able to have a happy ending too.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and the way it turned out, we had our boys five months apart, and then we ended up having girls five months apart, which I think is so wild that it's after this, then we went on to a new timeline, right?
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then that timeline still just kind of stayed consistent for us having kids that are very same ages, and um, I think that's been like a blessing in disguise.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right, exactly.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we were we're really lucky to to have these kids that are are so close when they get together, and I'm very thankful for our kids' relationships and you know that we were able to have kids so close to each other.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm curious like, is there anything else that you wish would have gone different?
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's easy for me anyway to sit here and have this conversation today because of how life has turned out, and because I have been able to process for years at this point in time.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's still something that deeply impacts me, it's still something that can bring tears to my eyes anytime I think about it, talk about it, and live that experience again.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: But I can be here with you and laugh and reminisce and like have this joyful conversation because of how life ended up working out.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: But if we were to go back and say, man, that really was tough, like things that we could have done differently for each other or for ourselves, is there anything that she would have done differently?
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think that we I think we did it the bet our best at the time with what we had.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: We were we were much younger than we are now.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_02: We're talking like nine years ago, um, I think would be.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um and so I think through our experiences um as moms and just as women, and also just like the change in in culture of of the world um in society has changed in terms of mental health, and I think being more aware to really show up for people and um be more open about mental health.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's changed significantly in the last nine years, and just um, you know, changes that we have made in our own lives for our own mental health and happiness um has allowed us to kind of have these more open conversations that we have with each other pretty frequently.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um and also like your change in life to become a mental health therapist, I think, you know, um really gives you, I'm sure, very different insight on it.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think we did our very best we could at the time, and I think we did pretty darn well showing up for each other.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I don't look back with any animosity, and um I hope that you felt supported, um, but also not like suffocated and like you know, things like that.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: But I do wish that we had would would have been able to be a little bit more open about it and just say, like, this is really hard.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm here for you in it whatever way you need me to be, and just tell me what that means, you know, and be able to just like straight up say that to each other, you know, or say, like, okay, I need space right now, and I don't want to see your your pregnant belly right now.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, I I agree, and that's where my mind goes too, of like looking back and just knowing the relationship we had then, knowing the relationship we still have today, and greater over the years, like I think it's gotten nothing but stronger, but I know how strong it was then.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: I do think if we would have just been able to openly acknowledge that both things can exist, like I don't really know that I knew that yet in this world that like two things can be true as much as I do today.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess probably I was I was doing that, I was living that, but I don't think I ever recognized that two things can be so deeply true.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: And saying that out loud to each other, I think would have just opened up a lot more space for us to for me to maybe cry more openly, right?
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: And not like behind closed doors.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that that was just like how I was processing and doing it.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe it wouldn't have changed anything, but maybe it would have.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: I remember one time I chose not to go to Vermont one weekend when you guys were up there, and I think you were with some friends who had their baby already and you were pregnant then.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I told Tyler I couldn't go, but then I think I came up with like some reason of why I couldn't be there, right?
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, well, no, everybody probably knows anyway.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I think, yeah, those are the things that looking back is just being able to just be a little bit more honest, knowing that everyone was a very understanding and accepting everything in those moments for what it was, um, would have been nice.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I think in hindsight, you hit exactly what I was thinking on the head of just this openness to be able to share with each other a little bit more would have been nice.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I but I think a lot of that just comes with maturity.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: And and just like totally knowing how to talk to people.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I I also think as our friendship has grown, we we are able to be really open with each other.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: I think at that point we had become, you know, extremely close friends and best friends, but um, I'm not saying that this to be cheesy, but now, you know, I I feel like we feel like sisters, you know.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_02: So I feel like there's nothing I can't tell you, and I and I don't know if if our relationship was at that point then, you know.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: Again, you're talking nine years ago, like you said.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think the ability to be more vulnerable exists today, and love that for us, right?
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like I agree, there's nothing that I can't pick up the phone and like have a phone conversation with you about today.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously, we're gonna be in person soon, we're gonna be together for Thanksgiving this year, which I'm so excited about, and love that time together where we can just really say exactly what we want to need to be there to support each other in like this maybe deeper way as the years have gone by.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I love that.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: I love that we're able to do that, but I also agree that we did the best we could with what we had, and I'm just so grateful for your support and the way that you showed up and the way you were able just to navigate it was just a beautiful thing and really helped through that journey.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that you know, your the way you navigated it was was was very graceful and you know, maybe maybe too graceful, you know, where um I'm sure that there was a lot you were you were hiding and and holding back.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um but you were you were able to be an amazing auntie through it at through it all, you know, even even as our pregnancy was continuing in and you know, throughout the whole thing.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so we were very grateful to have you there with us throughout every step and you know, never felt anything but support from you, and and that's really, really lucky.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, see, we uh we are lucky that they brought us together.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: We can thank Tony.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean they're definitely very lucky, but we are too.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they're the luckiest, but we are also two lucky women on the side of it, too.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, maybe for one last thing, just for our listeners today.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think maybe it's not even a question, maybe it's just a couple of thoughts.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think that there's one thing that I learned through it, that there's no right or wrong way to navigate this.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: It is, again, I said at the beginning, this is only our experience and our journey through it.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: This is not speaking for anyone else and what anyone else may have gone through or might be going through.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I think just recognizing that giving yourself grace to take care of yourself first and foremost, no matter what side of this situation you're in or on, and being able to take it one day at a time.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: And that at the end of the day, I think just holding space for each other the best that you can too is a beautiful thing.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: But take care of yourself first, hold space for each other next.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: And it's important to make sure that you're just doing that, I guess.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I I think you make a good point of just knowing what you need, you know, um, whether it be throughout your pregnancy or pregnancy loss, whatever you're going through.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_02: If you need that village, um, first of all, go back to that episode and listen if you need to find a village.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: Love it.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: Shout out to Alyssa.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: Shout out to the village episode.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_02: But um, if you're someone who um, you know, thrives on on support of family and friends, then seek that out and and and find that.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: If you need to just be by yourself and um, you know, take that time to yourself, then then do that and and speak up for yourself and say, this is what I need in this moment.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and don't um I'm gonna think about the way I want to say this.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um don't be afraid to ask for what you need, whatever that is.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and just make sure you surround yourself with that support.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, agreed.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess one thing before I'll let listeners go today is it I feel responsible as a now perinatal mental health therapist to say this because I was not in that role in that career at that point in time, and I did not do all the best things for myself when it came to reaching out for additional support.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't know I needed it.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: Looking back on it, it would have done worked wonders.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: I have done that since then, like fast forward to after having two kids doing work and therapy around exactly what we're talking about, and it still helped heal years later.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: So, back to your point, Carolyn, I think just whatever support you need, it does not have to mean therapy.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_01: If it does, it's out there and it can be a very healing process to walk through and not feel so alone in it, um, whether it's group therapy, whether it's just individual, finding um a space to be able to kind of process and walk through those emotions can be very impactful.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I have to say that because it's so um, you know, deeply ingrained in me at this point in my life as a therapist that um there's a lot of good work that could be done if you feel like you need that support.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean you you took that, those words right out of my out of my mind because I I think we are very lucky in this day and age that um women's mental health has more of a space and there are more perinatal mental health therapists that specialize in this, and we're so lucky that that is a resource and absolutely don't hesitate to to find the right therapist for you or you know, family and friend support, what whatever that looks like.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_02: Agreed.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate again these are conversations, you know.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: We've had bits and pieces of this, obviously, as we were navigating it and living it ourselves, but we haven't really talked about this.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I just appreciate you coming on and being able to go a little bit deeper with me today.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's an important conversation for plenty of people out there that are navigating something that might look a little bit similar in their season of life as well.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: So to everyone out there listening, I hope that this meant something to you.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: If it resonated with you, feel free to reach out.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: We love just hearing anything that resonates with you and being able to kind of share that with us and just be a space that you feel like you can come to.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_01: So feel free to reach out, messy.minded.mama on Instagram.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: You can send us a message or you can email at hello at messy mindedmama.com.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Carolyn, so much for being here, and we will see y'all next time.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: Bye.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for being here with us today.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: If something in this episode resonated, we're really glad you listened.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: Messy minded or not, you're not alone in this, and you don't have to have it all figured out.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: If you'd like to stay connected, you can follow Messy Minded Mama wherever you listen to podcasts.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: And follow us on Instagram at messy.minded.mama.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: We'll be back to connect again soon.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for being here.