Latest / SEA of Startups / 🎙️ EP 12:The Great Reality Check: How SEA's Tech Scene Finally Grew Up (And Why Silicon Valley Should Pay Attention)

Transcript

🎙️ EP 12:The Great Reality Check: How SEA's Tech Scene Finally Grew Up (And Why Silicon Valley Should Pay Attention) · SEA of Startups

0:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
0:01
SPEAKER_01: All right.
0:02
SPEAKER_01: You know what's fascinating about this region?
0:05
We went from the whole growth at all costs mentality to,
0:08
wait,
0:09
can you actually make money?
0:11
All within the span of about 18 months,
0:14
that pendulum has swung dramatically.
0:17
SPEAKER_00: That's one and a half years,
0:19
and that's probably the most diplomatic way I've ever heard
0:23
someone describe what's
0:24
SPEAKER_00: basically been a complete reality check for the entire ecosystem.
0:29
SPEAKER_01: Exactly right.
0:31
SPEAKER_01: And so we're going to be diving into exactly that today.
0:35
So we've got a range of topics that we're going to touch on
0:38
from Malaysia pumping
0:39
SPEAKER_01: the brakes on data sensors,
0:41
SPEAKER_01: AI services absolutely exploding,
0:45
SPEAKER_01: and startups finally asking the revolutionary question,
0:48
SPEAKER_01: how do we build something that lasts?
0:52
SPEAKER_00: And this isn't just about one country or one sector.
0:54
We're talking about three massive shifts happening
0:57
simultaneously that are
0:58
SPEAKER_00: reshaping how the entire region thinks about tech growth.
1:02
And we are,
1:03
you know,
1:03
at the third quarter of a year now and things are happening.
1:07
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah.
1:08
SPEAKER_01: Exactly, exactly.
1:09
SPEAKER_01: We've got a lot to unpack today.
1:11
SPEAKER_01: So buckle up.
1:22
SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to Sea of Startups,
1:25
SPEAKER_01: the podcast that digs into the real stories behind building,
1:28
SPEAKER_01: funding,
1:28
SPEAKER_01: and navigating startup life in Southeast Asia.
1:31
SPEAKER_01: I'm Kevin Brocklin,
1:32
SPEAKER_01: and as always,
1:33
SPEAKER_01: I'm joined by my co-host,
1:34
SPEAKER_01: Kim,
1:35
who's been helping keep me honest about the messy middle
1:38
between pitch decks and
1:39
SPEAKER_01: polished headlines for,
1:41
SPEAKER_01: what are we,
1:42
SPEAKER_01: 12 episodes,
1:43
SPEAKER_01: something like that right now?
1:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, 12.
1:46
SPEAKER_00: 12.
1:46
SPEAKER_00: It's been a journey.
1:47
I mean,
1:48
September,
1:49
we first started talking about this in January of February and
1:51
12.
1:53
SPEAKER_00: And I have to say to this topic,
1:54
feels like we're finally talking about a grown-up version of
1:57
everything we've been
1:58
SPEAKER_00: discussing since we started this show.
2:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's exactly right.
2:02
So we're calling this one the new reality check because that's
2:05
exactly what we're
2:06
SPEAKER_01: going through right now.
2:08
SPEAKER_01: We're seeing this across the region.
2:09
SPEAKER_01: And if you've been following along with our previous episodes,
2:12
you know we love digging into the inflection points where we're
2:15
looking at
2:15
SPEAKER_01: narrative shifts going on.
2:18
SPEAKER_00: and touching on some spicy, spicy topics and shift it has.
2:22
SPEAKER_00: They're talking about infrastructure getting strategic,
2:25
SPEAKER_00: AI services booming in ways nobody predicted,
2:27
SPEAKER_00: and the startup ecosystem finally growing up.
2:30
SPEAKER_00: About damn time, they would say.
2:32
But Kevin,
2:33
what makes this moment different is that all three are
2:36
happening at the same time.
2:38
SPEAKER_01: Yes,
2:38
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
2:39
it's part of the growing pains of the region where we're trying
2:41
to find that new
2:42
SPEAKER_01: equilibrium.
2:43
SPEAKER_01: As I referenced before, the pendulum is swinging.
2:46
SPEAKER_01: We're trying to find that new sensor point.
2:48
SPEAKER_01: The region is,
2:50
SPEAKER_01: well,
2:50
SPEAKER_01: it is slowing down,
2:51
SPEAKER_01: but it isn't really slowing down because it's just trying to get smarter.
2:54
SPEAKER_01: It's just trying to find its own feet again.
2:57
SPEAKER_01: And so today we're going to break down exactly what that looks like,
3:00
SPEAKER_01: what it means for founders,
3:01
SPEAKER_01: investors,
3:02
and really anyone trying to understand where Southeast Asian
3:05
tech is going.
3:07
SPEAKER_00: It's like puberty, right?
3:08
Kids in puberty and then you find them sleeping and then
3:10
they're like trying to
3:12
SPEAKER_00: grow up so fast and then they're not because of sleeping and all that.
3:15
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, that's one life example that I'm looking at now.
3:18
SPEAKER_00: So not that I have kids,
3:19
SPEAKER_00: but anyway,
3:20
SPEAKER_00: so grab your coffee,
3:21
SPEAKER_00: settle in because we're going to take our time with this one.
3:23
SPEAKER_00: This is the kind of conversation that deserves space to breathe.
3:26
SPEAKER_01: All right,
3:26
so let's start with what I think is the perfect metaphor for
3:30
this new era,
3:30
SPEAKER_01: which is talking about the data sensor story.
3:34
SPEAKER_01: And front and center of a lot of this story has been Malaysia,
3:37
SPEAKER_01: because we've seen this massive boom.
3:39
SPEAKER_01: Malaysia has been leading the pack of Southeast Asia.
3:43
SPEAKER_01: In regards to the amount of data centers that have been coming up,
3:47
SPEAKER_01: the committed investments,
3:49
SPEAKER_01: all of this sort of stuff.
3:50
SPEAKER_01: Kim, you've been tracking this closely as well.
3:52
And I think this actually encapsulates how the region is kind
3:58
of shifting presently.
4:00
SPEAKER_00: And I'd say like,
4:01
SPEAKER_00: given how it is shifting,
4:03
SPEAKER_00: like Jakarta,
4:04
SPEAKER_00: like we talked about at one point,
4:06
SPEAKER_00: HNEX is 144 megawatts.
4:08
SPEAKER_00: I guess it has competition right now with Malaysia.
4:11
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, imagine you're hosting the ultimate tech house party.
4:14
SPEAKER_00: That'd be fun, right?
4:15
SPEAKER_00: You have Microsoft, Amazon, Google, they all show up.
4:18
SPEAKER_00: But on the flip side, so do Tencent, Huawei, Alibaba.
4:22
SPEAKER_00: Everyone wants to be there because you've got cheap land,
4:25
SPEAKER_00: low electricity costs,
4:26
SPEAKER_00: and you're literally next door to Singapore's tech.
4:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
4:29
But,
4:29
you know,
4:31
we have this aspect where we have like a capacity issue that's
4:35
going on.
4:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
4:38
SPEAKER_01: So this whole data sensor boom,
4:42
SPEAKER_01: no matter which part of the world that you're talking about,
4:44
SPEAKER_01: we have limiting factors that are naturally in it.
4:46
SPEAKER_01: And I'm not necessarily solely talking about chips.
4:49
SPEAKER_01: That's obviously a portion of this story, but it's not really just chips.
4:54
Because where a lot of this mentality is shifting around is
4:57
because we're also
4:58
SPEAKER_01: talking about the challenges associated with the resources required.
5:04
And so resources that I'm talking about are really the energy
5:07
in order to power
5:09
SPEAKER_01: these data sensors.
5:10
SPEAKER_01: And we're also talking about water because we're in a tropical climate.
5:13
SPEAKER_01: We need to be able to keep these things cool.
5:17
And so some of the biggest considerations that are going on
5:20
right now are revolving
5:21
around these resources and whether or not they're sufficient in
5:26
order to not have
5:28
SPEAKER_01: negative consequences to the rest of the population.
5:31
Keep in mind that a lot of this data sensor boom is happening
5:34
in the southern state
5:35
SPEAKER_01: of Johor right across from Singapore.
5:37
SPEAKER_01: And a lot of that is because land is cheap,
5:40
SPEAKER_01: it's all available,
5:41
SPEAKER_01: and it's intended to power Singapore.
5:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah?
5:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
5:44
SPEAKER_01: But what else are we sending to Singapore?
5:46
SPEAKER_01: We're sending water.
5:48
And so if all of a sudden the state of Johor needs the water in
5:51
order to keep the
5:53
SPEAKER_01: data sensor cool,
5:54
SPEAKER_01: what's going to happen to the taps in Singapore?
5:58
SPEAKER_00: That's what's going to happen.
5:59
We're thirsty for the data sensor,
6:01
so we're going to go thirsty for the water?
6:02
SPEAKER_01: Or what's going to end up happening here?
6:05
SPEAKER_00: Singapore's sense will benefit a lot from this one.
6:07
SPEAKER_00: I mean, like I said, right?
6:08
SPEAKER_00: Resources is...
6:11
SPEAKER_00: We are battling with it every day.
6:12
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's not going to help with climate change and whatnot.
6:16
SPEAKER_00: The world's going to get hotter.
6:18
SPEAKER_00: How's it going to compound on it?
6:19
SPEAKER_00: Europe's going to be on our backs in a way.
6:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you know what?
6:23
SPEAKER_00: Malaysia, the way I see it, it's so conflicting, right?
6:29
SPEAKER_00: On one hand, it's benefiting Malaysia so much.
6:32
SPEAKER_00: On the other hand, it's not as helpful to the environment.
6:35
SPEAKER_00: I'm on the fence on that one.
6:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
6:38
Malaysia has captured over 60% of all new data center capacity
6:42
under construction
6:43
SPEAKER_00: in Southeast Asia's major markets.
6:45
SPEAKER_00: And that's big.
6:46
SPEAKER_00: That's huge for Malaysia.
6:47
SPEAKER_00: Given where we are right now, I think that's a big win for us.
6:50
SPEAKER_00: But we're talking about a genuine boom here, right?
6:52
SPEAKER_00: Like the parties got too big for the house.
6:54
SPEAKER_00: Infrastructure strain.
6:56
sustainability concerns and then this whole geopolitical layer
7:00
that changed
7:01
everything us versus china and you're seeing it pan out in this
7:04
area as well like
7:05
you're feeling it here because data centers um china wants in
7:09
us wants in everyone
7:11
wants in and you know each of these factors tells us something
7:13
different about how
7:14
growth strategies are evolving um and it's not just a malaysia
7:19
problem like you
7:19
SPEAKER_00: have jakarta and jakarta even then
7:22
geopolitically is going through something as well that protests
7:25
happening so
7:26
Malaysia seems like at this point seems like the one that's
7:31
apart from Singapore
7:32
SPEAKER_00: benefiting it right
7:34
SPEAKER_01: We definitely have to put it in context of these things.
7:37
SPEAKER_01: And I think Singapore had a moratorium,
7:42
which is the reason why a lot of it started getting built over
7:45
in Malaysia.
7:46
Across all the markets,
7:49
we're seeing data centers being built up across everyone.
7:52
SPEAKER_01: It's just that Malaysia has been capturing a lot of it.
7:54
SPEAKER_01: And part of that is because of the benefit of the proximity to Singapore,
7:57
SPEAKER_01: to be perfectly honest with you,
7:58
SPEAKER_01: because there's not the space where they could
8:00
SPEAKER_01: a capability in order to put it there.
8:03
SPEAKER_01: But a lot of the sensor still is dominated by there.
8:07
So the closest place that we could end up putting it is inside
8:11
of Malaysia.
8:11
SPEAKER_01: So Malaysia has definitely benefited from that aspect.
8:15
SPEAKER_01: But I think there's a number of other things in relation to this.
8:19
SPEAKER_01: data sensors are not per se a job creator in and of themselves.
8:25
SPEAKER_01: So when you think about all of this,
8:28
when the government throws out these quotes of like billions
8:31
and billions of
8:31
SPEAKER_01: investment going into data sensors,
8:34
SPEAKER_01: it's not directly creating jobs or otherwise.
8:38
SPEAKER_01: Ultimately, you need the rest of the ecosystem.
8:41
It's a precedent layer that you want to have those data sensors
8:47
because there's
8:47
SPEAKER_01: value to those for the rest of the economy.
8:50
SPEAKER_01: But ultimately,
8:51
you're going to need to get more of the local enterprises to
8:54
make the switch to
8:55
SPEAKER_01: cloud.
8:56
SPEAKER_01: You're going to need to develop more of a tech industry.
8:58
SPEAKER_01: You're going to need to develop a lot more.
9:00
SPEAKER_01: This is just really one step to it.
9:02
SPEAKER_01: But the interesting thing is that I'm usually hesitant on regulation,
9:07
but I do like the fact that they're finally reining it in
9:10
because it was going to
9:11
SPEAKER_01: skew.
9:12
It seemed like it was skewing too far that there was just such
9:16
a boom that it was
9:17
just going to overpopulate and end up causing strains on
9:21
electricity costs,
9:22
SPEAKER_01: on water resources,
9:24
on all of these other variables that would end up having a
9:27
detrimental impact on
9:29
SPEAKER_01: the rest of the market.
9:31
at least they're reining it in ultimately it needs to be a
9:35
measured sort of pace
9:36
and it is good that it's coming but it needs to be balanced
9:40
which is good like
9:41
Johor's now got a vetting committee you've got these other
9:44
things that are going on
9:45
so it's not just the red tape it's actually like trying to make
9:49
sure that things
9:50
SPEAKER_01: are sustainable yeah
9:51
Yeah,
9:52
and the really fascinating part is the geopolitical chess game
9:55
that's playing out.
9:57
The US is quietly urging Malaysia not to let Chinese firms use
10:00
local data centers
10:01
SPEAKER_00: as a backdoor to obtain advanced AI chips that are under export ban.
10:06
So technically,
10:07
as much as China wants to,
10:09
pun intended,
10:10
chip in,
10:11
the US is saying no.
10:12
SPEAKER_00: You know,
10:13
we can't have you chip in and that's getting really complex
10:16
because you're not just
10:16
SPEAKER_00: talking about business decisions anymore.
10:18
SPEAKER_00: You're talking about national security.
10:20
You're talking about trade policy and technological sovereignty
10:23
all rolled into one.
10:24
SPEAKER_00: And this is happening not just within Southeast Asia, it's everywhere.
10:28
SPEAKER_00: Like Canada is looking at that,
10:30
SPEAKER_00: you know,
10:31
SPEAKER_00: so many other places and everyone's the protectionist walls are
10:36
SPEAKER_00: getting higher and higher as time goes by,
10:38
SPEAKER_00: as long as the Trump administration is really accelerating that.
10:42
SPEAKER_00: But it seems like it's happening everywhere.
10:44
SPEAKER_00: It's not just this end of the world.
10:46
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, U.S.
10:47
officials are worried that the Chinese companies could route
10:50
high-end AI chips into
10:51
China via overseas data centers to train AI models for military
10:56
or other sensitive
10:57
SPEAKER_00: purposes.
10:57
SPEAKER_00: That's not just business competition.
10:59
SPEAKER_00: It's strategic.
11:00
SPEAKER_01: There's inevitably going to be that,
11:02
SPEAKER_01: trying to make sure that you don't see the transshipments,
11:04
SPEAKER_01: all of this.
11:05
SPEAKER_01: It's going to be very difficult in order to stamp it out entirely.
11:10
SPEAKER_01: There's inevitably going to be leaky holes.
11:13
SPEAKER_01: There's the geopolitics that are at play.
11:16
Those are the types of things for like folks like us that are
11:19
just operators,
11:20
like business operators in the region that are just trying to
11:23
get along with our
11:24
day to day life and are less sort of compelled for
11:28
nationalistic or geopolitical
11:30
SPEAKER_01: purposes.
11:31
SPEAKER_01: We're just trying to operate business.
11:34
SPEAKER_01: We're just trying to continue on and do what we need to do.
11:38
SPEAKER_01: So it is inevitably going to be a consideration.
11:42
SPEAKER_01: We can't turn a blind eye to it,
11:44
SPEAKER_01: but we also need to make sure that we keep our business as business,
11:49
SPEAKER_01: guys.
11:50
SPEAKER_01: Let's just keep on trying to build cool tech, new businesses, et cetera.
11:54
SPEAKER_00: when you talk about businesses as well,
11:56
SPEAKER_00: talking about that,
11:57
SPEAKER_00: it's fascinating that how major players adapted like GDS Holdings,
12:00
SPEAKER_00: you know,
12:00
SPEAKER_00: one of China's biggest data center operators,
12:03
quietly spun off their overseas operations into a separate
12:06
entity called Day One.
12:09
SPEAKER_00: It's just funny how they named it, like as though this is a clean slate.
12:12
SPEAKER_00: They're operating in Southeast Asia.
12:14
SPEAKER_00: This is Day One.
12:15
SPEAKER_00: We're not associated with China anymore.
12:16
SPEAKER_00: We're here.
12:17
SPEAKER_00: And Day One is how we're going to start.
12:20
SPEAKER_00: It's not just corporate restructuring, I think.
12:22
SPEAKER_00: It's just...
12:23
SPEAKER_00: insulation from the geopolitical pressure.
12:25
SPEAKER_00: I think it's a smart way to do it.
12:26
And it signals that these companies saw the writing on the wall
12:29
and were trying to
12:29
separate their international business from Chinese oversight
12:32
and potential US
12:33
SPEAKER_00: protein.
12:34
SPEAKER_00: So I think
12:35
SPEAKER_00: this would ultimately help readers like us.
12:38
SPEAKER_00: There's some objectivity that as someone who is just being in the middle,
12:41
we can go with it rather than getting stuck in between these
12:45
two powerhouses.
12:46
SPEAKER_01: It's definitely interesting.
12:49
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
12:50
SPEAKER_01: day one,
12:50
SPEAKER_01: when you said that kind of made me laugh because I thought of AWS,
12:56
SPEAKER_01: which always says it's still day zero.
12:58
Yeah.
12:59
SPEAKER_01: I can't help but think of it and be like,
13:01
SPEAKER_01: okay,
13:02
SPEAKER_01: well,
13:02
SPEAKER_01: is this a play on the AWS,
13:04
SPEAKER_01: which is one of the biggest players in Cloud?
13:09
But certainly an interesting oversight as we see that there's
13:14
more spinoff.
13:15
SPEAKER_01: I mean...
13:16
it used to be the data sensors were not like as big of an
13:21
investment target,
13:22
but like now the big private equity infrastructure players that
13:27
would normally
13:27
SPEAKER_01: build roads,
13:29
SPEAKER_01: telco operations,
13:31
SPEAKER_01: airports,
13:32
SPEAKER_01: railroads,
13:33
SPEAKER_01: ports, those sort of things.
13:35
SPEAKER_01: A lot of those players are now looking into mega data sensor projects.
13:39
I think some of them were involved in the one that we discussed
13:42
in Indonesia.
13:43
They're probably some of them are incorporated into some of
13:46
these ones that are
13:47
SPEAKER_01: going on in Malaysia.
13:48
SPEAKER_01: I don't know the investor base in a lot of them.
13:51
SPEAKER_01: I didn't do that research.
13:52
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure we could pull that info up.
13:54
But it's certainly interesting how infrastructure plays and
14:00
what that means to the next level.
14:03
Are we getting into the new era of AI and what that means for
14:08
the rest of businesses?
14:09
It shows us what responsible expansion looks like when you have
14:13
to balance both
14:14
economic opportunity with resource constraints and geopolitical
14:18
realities.
14:19
SPEAKER_00: And I think the takeaway for the broader system is really significant.
14:23
Like the days of purely opportunistic infrastructure expansion
14:26
where you just grab
14:27
the bull by its horns or whatever opportunities are available
14:31
without thinking
14:31
SPEAKER_00: through the second and third order effects.
14:33
SPEAKER_00: I think those are over.
14:34
SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, you have one belt, one road kind of thing.
14:37
SPEAKER_00: This is...
14:38
SPEAKER_00: the next level.
14:39
SPEAKER_00: You're looking at data centers now,
14:43
SPEAKER_00: which creates interesting opportunities for other players as well,
14:45
SPEAKER_00: local operators,
14:46
SPEAKER_00: regional players who can navigate these complexities,
14:49
SPEAKER_00: companies that can build sustainable infrastructure from the ground.
14:52
And it sets the stage for our next topic because while pure
14:55
infrastructure plays
14:56
SPEAKER_00: are getting more and more complex,
14:58
SPEAKER_00: the applications and services layer is
15:01
SPEAKER_00: mind-blowing on the next level.
15:03
SPEAKER_00: And in this where the story gets really exciting,
15:06
SPEAKER_00: you know,
15:06
SPEAKER_00: while Malaysia is being strategic about data centers,
15:09
SPEAKER_00: the AI services industry is entering what I can only describe as,
15:13
SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure if it's golden age is the right word,
15:15
SPEAKER_00: because everything seems to be a golden age,
15:17
SPEAKER_00: then what's the next one,
15:18
SPEAKER_00: right?
15:18
SPEAKER_00: Or the gilded age, I don't know.
15:19
SPEAKER_00: And the timing couldn't be more perfect.
15:21
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what we call it, which do you have any idea?
15:23
SPEAKER_00: It's like one door closing another opening, right?
15:26
I mean,
15:27
there's a bit of flavor of the month,
15:29
I think,
15:29
to be perfectly honest with you.
15:32
SPEAKER_01: But it is one of these things to where...
15:36
everybody is talking about it so as this infrastructure is
15:40
getting built out as the
15:42
popularity and the the awareness of ai and the productivity and
15:47
the benefits that
15:48
can come out of it we need to see transformation digital
15:52
transformation we've
15:53
always talked about digital transformation for a very long time
15:57
but now we have ai
15:58
SPEAKER_01: driven digital transformation
16:01
SPEAKER_01: And a lot of people are unsure how to do it.
16:03
SPEAKER_01: So we've seen like a boom of consultants that are coming out.
16:07
SPEAKER_01: The service industry is getting revamped.
16:11
SPEAKER_01: It's their new heyday.
16:11
SPEAKER_01: They've got a new shiny toy to start selling people.
16:16
SPEAKER_00: Everyone's selling something at this point.
16:17
SPEAKER_00: I mean, just look at LinkedIn.
16:19
SPEAKER_00: It's not just products now.
16:21
SPEAKER_00: It's your own brand too.
16:22
SPEAKER_00: So that's safe for something, right?
16:24
SPEAKER_00: Like,
16:25
SPEAKER_00: you know,
16:25
SPEAKER_00: perfect example,
16:26
Vietnam's AFPT Corporation just signed a $30 million MOU for a
16:31
multi-year AI
16:32
transformation with one of the Southeast Asia's largest
16:34
industrial conglomerates.
16:35
SPEAKER_00: Obviously,
16:36
SPEAKER_00: they're not going to say who,
16:37
SPEAKER_00: but we're talking about building factories of the future here.
16:40
That was an interesting story that slid cross and kind of
16:42
prompted this to be on
16:43
SPEAKER_01: the docket for today.
16:44
But it's,
16:45
you know,
16:46
that's a pretty reasonable size contract with a single company.
16:52
SPEAKER_01: I think this is kind of indicative of what we're going to see elsewhere.
16:57
SPEAKER_01: Maybe not of that contract value.
16:59
SPEAKER_01: That's quite impressive.
17:00
SPEAKER_01: Good for them.
17:00
SPEAKER_01: Kudos.
17:02
SPEAKER_01: Would love to see it.
17:03
SPEAKER_01: Maybe I'm in the wrong business.
17:04
SPEAKER_01: I should be doing that today.
17:06
SPEAKER_01: transformation consulting.
17:08
SPEAKER_01: I've seen a lot of new consultants popping up that are AI experts,
17:13
SPEAKER_01: experts that are targeting corporates.
17:15
I've seen the big consulting firms of the world are now
17:20
repositioning themselves.
17:22
SPEAKER_01: And if you go and talk to them,
17:23
they sound more like tech companies than they sound like the
17:25
old style management
17:26
SPEAKER_01: consultants.
17:27
And so it's really kind of changing the game in regards to how
17:33
we'll see Southeast
17:35
Asia's top companies trying to figure out and there's a ripe
17:40
area for the services
17:42
SPEAKER_01: industry right now.
17:42
SPEAKER_01: So I think the timing is really interesting.
17:52
I think you're not too far from it given how much exposure
17:54
you're getting at all
17:55
SPEAKER_00: the automations.
17:55
SPEAKER_00: Maybe you can just take a jab at it.
17:57
SPEAKER_00: You never know, right?
17:58
SPEAKER_00: I mean, given your experience, things could happen, you know?
18:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
18:03
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
18:04
the big challenge here and one of the layers where consultants
18:08
come in is,
18:10
SPEAKER_01: you know,
18:11
SPEAKER_01: we talked about previously about kind of the MIT report.
18:15
SPEAKER_01: I think that was a couple of episodes ago.
18:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
18:19
SPEAKER_01: And so one of the areas,
18:21
because the report highlighted that they're just not going deep
18:25
enough in regards
18:26
SPEAKER_01: to where the high ROI is.
18:28
But one of the big challenges in going after that is that
18:31
there's a big change
18:33
SPEAKER_01: management component of it.
18:36
Who always comes in anytime there's big change management to
18:39
handle for a big corporate?
18:41
SPEAKER_01: A consultant firm.
18:43
And so there's this natural-like pairing between these two
18:48
where it's a match made
18:50
in heaven that consultants and AI come together because they're
18:55
looking at the
18:55
SPEAKER_01: corporates and saying they need to transform.
18:58
SPEAKER_01: There's a change management process that it has to go through.
19:01
In order for these workflows to fit seamlessly in or to learn
19:06
these new toys,
19:07
SPEAKER_01: you need somebody to come in,
19:09
SPEAKER_01: help to go through the implementation.
19:11
Most corporates don't have that internal ambassador or leader
19:16
that can drive the
19:17
SPEAKER_01: change themselves.
19:18
SPEAKER_01: So they're looking for external help.
19:20
SPEAKER_01: There's going to be a boom in the services industry.
19:23
And you see it a lot with many of these consultant firms that
19:26
are out there,
19:27
SPEAKER_01: as well as new ones that are popping up.
19:29
SPEAKER_00: And it's going to go from there.
19:31
SPEAKER_00: Everything's going to be in tech now.
19:33
SPEAKER_00: There's no way of escaping.
19:36
SPEAKER_00: Change has to come with tech now.
19:37
It's not just change consulting and helping with people
19:41
management and whatnot.
19:42
Everything,
19:42
every layer of consultancy now is ingrained with tech moving
19:47
forward.
19:48
SPEAKER_00: That's how I see it.
19:49
SPEAKER_00: So much.
19:49
SPEAKER_00: So much.
19:51
SPEAKER_00: AI is at every level,
19:52
SPEAKER_00: every inflection,
19:54
SPEAKER_00: not inflection,
19:54
SPEAKER_00: but every layer of how we think right now.
19:56
SPEAKER_00: Like even I just got to know from a friend,
19:58
SPEAKER_00: he's including AI in the way they hire,
20:01
SPEAKER_00: you know,
20:01
SPEAKER_00: AI is able to capture.
20:04
SPEAKER_00: And then from there, it's helping in a job.
20:06
like literally shaping the job market right now you can't
20:09
survive without ai
20:10
there's no way around it and there's no two ways about it and i
20:13
think what strikes
20:14
me about this approach is you know this fpt is how methodical
20:17
it is they're not
20:18
trying to revolutionize everything overnight i think they're
20:20
just trying to build
20:21
capabilities layer by layer proving its value at each tab and
20:24
same goes to
20:25
consulting as well the match making heaven it's literally the
20:28
same thing right like
20:29
SPEAKER_00: it is working because fpt has landed their largest ever contract
20:33
SPEAKER_00: $256 million over five years with a leading energy corporation.
20:37
SPEAKER_01: That's not... Yeah, another big contract.
20:40
SPEAKER_01: They had a few announcements just recently.
20:42
SPEAKER_01: So there was a handful of these ones that came out.
20:44
I don't know if they intentionally planned it or maybe their PR
20:47
department was
20:49
SPEAKER_01: behind kind of the timing around of it.
20:52
SPEAKER_01: But it's a great market opportunity.
20:55
SPEAKER_01: Traditional industries have deep pockets.
20:58
They generally struggle with complex operational changes and
21:03
they need outside
21:04
SPEAKER_01: service companies like FPT that have the expertise that can come in.
21:09
SPEAKER_01: And it's not just FPT.
21:10
We're using them because that was the story that kind of
21:12
prompted this to be on the docket.
21:14
SPEAKER_01: But there's a lot of other players out there.
21:16
SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of other consultants.
21:17
SPEAKER_01: And I think the broader takeaway out of this is that
21:21
SPEAKER_01: We are seeing large corporates now putting more resources,
21:26
SPEAKER_01: trying to get consultants in,
21:28
SPEAKER_01: trying to educate themselves,
21:30
SPEAKER_01: trying to figure out how to do it.
21:32
So we're at a really interesting inflection point where digital
21:36
transformation is
21:37
starting to take hold and we're going to start seeing these
21:39
implementations.
21:42
So there's a couple of big takeaways that I would put to the
21:45
audience that's
21:46
SPEAKER_01: listening right now.
21:47
If you're a young person and you're trying to enter into the
21:50
career workforce,
21:52
SPEAKER_01: AI is table stakes.
21:53
SPEAKER_01: If you don't have technical skills in some shape or another,
21:58
SPEAKER_01: you're going to be at a disadvantage.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: That's takeaway number one.
22:02
Takeaway number two is if you're a startup looking at entering
22:07
in and trying to
22:07
SPEAKER_01: sell your services in the corporates,
22:09
SPEAKER_01: It's a great time right now because they're trying to figure it out.
22:13
SPEAKER_01: They're looking at ways to allocate these budgets.
22:17
SPEAKER_01: First,
22:17
it generally oftentimes happens with getting consultants on
22:21
board at first,
22:22
but that's going to start the triggering to where they're going
22:25
to be trying to
22:26
SPEAKER_01: figure out new software to implement,
22:28
SPEAKER_01: new processes to implement,
22:29
SPEAKER_01: new technology to implement.
22:31
It's a really good time to be looking at this space if you have
22:35
the technical wherewithal.
22:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
22:37
SPEAKER_00: and I think it's,
22:38
SPEAKER_00: and even on a personal level,
22:40
SPEAKER_00: like for us,
22:41
SPEAKER_00: everyone for that matter,
22:42
SPEAKER_00: I think for hiring process,
22:44
SPEAKER_00: they don't just hire because of what you have qualification-wise.
22:49
SPEAKER_00: It's also about your attitude,
22:50
SPEAKER_00: how you're adaptable,
22:51
how you can really move the market rather than anything else
22:55
because the world is
22:56
changing so fast that there's no way around of trying to be as
22:59
technical as you
23:00
SPEAKER_00: can,
23:00
SPEAKER_00: but also being as adaptable and building those soft skills up as well.
23:04
SPEAKER_00: You know, talking about startups, right?
23:05
SPEAKER_00: Moving on to the next one.
23:06
SPEAKER_00: When we started this podcast,
23:08
SPEAKER_00: we were talking about startups prioritizing profitability over growth.
23:11
And now I think that's impossible because the entire region was
23:14
built on the grow
23:15
SPEAKER_00: fast,
23:16
SPEAKER_00: figure out monetization later when the numbers don't lie.
23:19
SPEAKER_00: And the funding numbers are stark.
23:20
SPEAKER_00: You know, we had a weakest deal making pace in over six years.
23:24
SPEAKER_00: We covered this some time ago,
23:25
SPEAKER_00: like maybe five,
23:26
SPEAKER_00: six episodes ago,
23:27
SPEAKER_00: and first half of 2025,
23:29
only 2 to 9 equity deals raised about 1.85 billion total
23:33
compared to that when the
23:34
SPEAKER_00: money was flowing like water.
23:36
SPEAKER_00: But this isn't just gradual market connection.
23:39
The alleged fraud scandals that we also covered at some once
23:44
celebrated startups,
23:45
SPEAKER_00: e-fisheries,
23:46
SPEAKER_00: hint,
23:46
SPEAKER_00: hint.
23:47
SPEAKER_00: basically forced everyone to wake up and reassess everything.
23:50
SPEAKER_00: You know, there were companies that were supposed to be poster children.
23:53
SPEAKER_00: Southeast Asian innovation,
23:54
SPEAKER_00: when the governance issues came to light,
23:56
SPEAKER_00: it shook confidence in the entire playbook.
24:00
SPEAKER_00: I think they're calling it Windows error.
24:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
24:05
I mean,
24:06
it's prompting a lot of reflection and reset that's going on in
24:10
the ecosystem.
24:11
SPEAKER_01: But let's be honest, it's still nascent.
24:16
SPEAKER_01: So if you think about it,
24:18
the startup ecosystem has not existed for too extremely long in
24:23
this part of the
24:24
SPEAKER_01: world.
24:24
SPEAKER_01: So we're still going through the growing pains.
24:26
SPEAKER_01: You know,
24:27
SPEAKER_01: like if you've got,
24:28
SPEAKER_01: and I'll use little kids because I have little kids,
24:30
SPEAKER_01: so maybe this may not be relatable to every single person that's in here.
24:34
But if you've got kids and they're running around the house and
24:38
they knock over a
24:38
SPEAKER_01: vase and it ends up breaking,
24:41
SPEAKER_01: you're not going to say,
24:42
SPEAKER_01: ah,
24:42
SPEAKER_01: it's terrible,
24:43
SPEAKER_01: we should never have kids,
24:44
SPEAKER_01: blah,
24:44
SPEAKER_01: blah,
24:45
SPEAKER_01: blah.
24:45
It's just the fact of nature that sometimes stuff is going to
24:49
break as you're
24:50
SPEAKER_01: growing and as you're revising.
24:54
But the thing that is required is to try and turn this into a
24:58
learning episode
24:59
SPEAKER_01: where we can actually come out of it more strongly.
25:02
And I think I've long said that it's been the wrong strategies
25:06
applied to the wrong geographies.
25:09
leading to the wrong outcomes and we need a reset so that we're
25:13
more sized
25:13
appropriate in regards to the playbooks that we're looking at
25:16
and the lenses that
25:17
we're understanding that are specific and relevant to what the
25:22
southeast asian
25:23
context is we can't copy and paste what's going on in other
25:27
parts of the world and
25:29
if i hear another person say hey we're bringing silicon valley
25:32
into southeast asia
25:34
I mean,
25:34
I roll my eyes every time I hear somebody say that because it
25:38
doesn't actually work.
25:40
SPEAKER_01: Bring some of the mentality and the risk-accepting culture and mindset.
25:46
But the playbooks and the stage of development of the ecosystem
25:52
is very,
25:52
very different.
25:53
SPEAKER_01: And we have to keep that in context.
25:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:58
SPEAKER_00: I think you think fatherhood has kind of changed your perspective.
26:00
SPEAKER_00: Seems like your kids are really lucky to have you.
26:03
SPEAKER_00: Very patient.
26:05
SPEAKER_00: Seems like your nice dad though.
26:08
SPEAKER_01: Depends upon what they've done in the day.
26:12
SPEAKER_00: But here's what gives me optimism about this shift.
26:14
SPEAKER_00: The camel is still there.
26:16
SPEAKER_00: Late-stage companies with strong fundamentals are still raising money,
26:19
SPEAKER_00: but sometimes even good at valuation.
26:21
SPEAKER_00: But it's not that the investment has disappeared.
26:24
SPEAKER_00: It's just that the bar has been raised.
26:26
SPEAKER_00: Investors are going deeper on due diligence,
26:29
SPEAKER_00: asking harder questions about governance,
26:31
SPEAKER_00: requiring clearer paths to profitability.
26:33
SPEAKER_00: And also,
26:33
SPEAKER_00: like I said,
26:34
SPEAKER_00: you can't copy and paste Silicon Valley to Southeast Asia,
26:38
SPEAKER_00: nor it could happen...
26:39
vice versa maybe it's easier on you know when it's flipped but
26:44
Silicon Valley is in
26:45
terms of the maturity and the lifestyle of the market and how
26:50
it's been it's way
26:51
way far ahead from Southeast Asia and it's still like I said
26:54
maybe I'm not sure if
26:55
SPEAKER_00: it's hitting puberty but still a kid law
26:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
26:59
SPEAKER_01: No, I mean, we've seen two main things.
27:02
SPEAKER_01: One is that,
27:04
SPEAKER_01: you know,
27:05
SPEAKER_01: the hot money,
27:07
SPEAKER_01: the money that chases momentum,
27:08
SPEAKER_01: that doesn't really have a thesis and is just kind of following the herd.
27:12
SPEAKER_01: The sort of tourist capital sort of is another way of putting it.
27:17
SPEAKER_01: That mostly has disappeared.
27:19
A lot of the capital that still remains in the region and is
27:23
being deployed is
27:25
SPEAKER_01: capital that actually is meaningfully attached.
27:29
and has strong connection to what's going on in the region and
27:33
still has the
27:33
SPEAKER_01: confidence in order to deploy.
27:36
So we have some positive signs that like we've rinsed out some
27:39
of the bad influence
27:42
SPEAKER_01: and now we've reset and we have a new foundation to build from.
27:47
SPEAKER_01: And the other thing is that we're seeing a little bit of sector rotation.
27:51
To where some of the bad strategy has come from a
27:56
misunderstanding of the consumer market.
27:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
27:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:02
led to,
28:03
in my opinion,
28:04
a lot of bad decisions and theses that didn't come to fruition.
28:08
SPEAKER_01: It's easy for me to say that in hindsight.
28:10
SPEAKER_01: I've been saying it for a long time, however.
28:13
But now we're seeing a lot more people giving more interest
28:17
into what I've been
28:18
SPEAKER_01: preaching for a long time,
28:20
SPEAKER_01: which is the B2B side of things,
28:22
SPEAKER_01: enterprise SaaS,
28:24
SPEAKER_01: Now,
28:24
SPEAKER_01: AI,
28:25
SPEAKER_01: B2B solutions,
28:27
basically the things that have more clear and demonstrable
28:30
value propositions,
28:32
SPEAKER_01: value creation,
28:33
SPEAKER_01: as opposed to just vanity metrics and chasing eyeballs.
28:38
SPEAKER_00: It's like...
28:39
SPEAKER_00: what you just said as well,
28:40
SPEAKER_00: like consumer super app dream is pretty much over,
28:43
SPEAKER_00: at least in its previous form,
28:45
SPEAKER_00: like cash burning,
28:45
SPEAKER_00: delivery apps,
28:47
SPEAKER_00: fintech plays that prioritized growth over fundamentals.
28:50
SPEAKER_00: Those business models look antiquated now.
28:52
SPEAKER_00: Again, it comes back to the fundamentals, right?
28:54
SPEAKER_00: Equity, still going through that profitable path.
28:56
SPEAKER_00: You can't just...
28:57
SPEAKER_00: burn through the roof and not have anything to prove off.
29:00
And what this means for founders is that the ecosystem is
29:03
becoming more selective,
29:04
SPEAKER_00: more demanding.
29:05
SPEAKER_00: And I think it's compounded by this venture winter as well.
29:08
SPEAKER_00: It's not helping.
29:09
But in terms of having the quality of startups,
29:13
I think it's getting better.
29:14
SPEAKER_00: It's like you said,
29:15
SPEAKER_00: the funnel at 1.1 of the episodes that you're saying,
29:17
SPEAKER_00: that the funnel is not getting as many ideas.
29:21
SPEAKER_00: you know,
29:21
SPEAKER_00: iterative as well as paying $10,000 to have ideas,
29:25
people who have ideas and then they want more ideas to come in
29:28
and they pay you
29:28
SPEAKER_00: $10,000 just to get the idea out.
29:30
So I think the days of raising money on a pitch deck and a
29:32
growth chart pretty much
29:34
SPEAKER_00: not over,
29:34
SPEAKER_00: they're still there,
29:35
SPEAKER_00: but it's not entirely as active as before.
29:38
And it creates interesting opportunities for founders who can
29:40
actually build
29:41
SPEAKER_00: sustainable businesses.
29:43
SPEAKER_00: less competition for talent,
29:45
SPEAKER_00: more rational market dynamics,
29:46
SPEAKER_00: customers who are willing to pay for real value.
29:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
29:50
SPEAKER_01: And this is not unique to Southeast Asia.
29:52
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's amplified because Southeast Asia is a nascent market.
29:56
So the dynamics that are pushing this mentality are a little
30:00
bit stronger here
30:02
SPEAKER_01: because we don't have as much depth in the capital stack.
30:04
SPEAKER_01: So we need to be more rational.
30:06
SPEAKER_01: We need to be more durable.
30:07
SPEAKER_01: We need these sort of adjustments.
30:09
SPEAKER_01: But you're seeing similar sort of change in mentality in Silicon Valley,
30:13
SPEAKER_01: in Europe,
30:14
SPEAKER_01: and other emerging markets.
30:15
SPEAKER_01: The whole idea of burn, burn, burn, growth at all cost.
30:19
I mean,
30:20
it's ending globally,
30:23
but that's the nature of maturation of ecosystems.
30:27
We need to be able to weather downturns,
30:29
adapt to the changing conditions.
30:31
SPEAKER_01: And this is kind of changing the dynamics for what
30:36
SPEAKER_01: the region's tech ambitions really are.
30:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
30:39
SPEAKER_00: which brings us,
30:40
SPEAKER_00: you know,
30:40
SPEAKER_00: as we start to wrap this up,
30:42
SPEAKER_00: I want to zoom up and look at the bigger picture.
30:44
SPEAKER_00: Like,
30:45
SPEAKER_00: we've got Malaysia being strategic about infrastructure,
30:48
SPEAKER_00: AI services booming,
30:49
SPEAKER_00: startups maturing.
30:51
SPEAKER_00: But what's a common thread here?
30:54
SPEAKER_01: So we're seeing that pendulum swing,
30:58
SPEAKER_01: you know,
30:58
SPEAKER_01: like we always have this motion where there's an overcorrection.
31:02
SPEAKER_01: We're trying to find the equilibrium.
31:04
So I think by and large,
31:06
at least I hope that the Wild West phase is over.
31:10
SPEAKER_01: I hope that we have more rational actors coming in, understanding.
31:14
SPEAKER_01: But that doesn't necessarily mean that innovation has to slow.
31:18
SPEAKER_01: It means that we just need to be more focused.
31:20
SPEAKER_01: We need to be more sustainable.
31:21
We need to have more contextualization that sustainable growth
31:27
beats breakneck growth.
31:28
SPEAKER_01: And we also need to have the context of what's the end game?
31:32
We don't have the IPO markets like NASDAQ in the US that we can
31:37
have Decacorn exits.
31:40
We need to keep in mind what is the pathway and where are the
31:45
probability of
31:46
SPEAKER_01: outcomes going to be?
31:47
SPEAKER_01: And keep that in the context in regards to,
31:49
SPEAKER_01: at least from the investor side,
31:51
SPEAKER_01: how we're approaching the market.
31:54
And I think we are looking at it as well in a more pragmatic,
31:57
value-driven way.
31:58
Like the startup ecosystem maturation means we are likely to
32:01
see companies that can
32:03
SPEAKER_00: weather economic cycles,
32:05
SPEAKER_00: adapt to changing conditions,
32:07
SPEAKER_00: and build long-term value.
32:08
And what I find encouraging is that I don't think it's
32:11
happening at the expense of ambition.
32:13
The region still wants to build great companies,
32:16
attract investment,
32:17
drive innovation.
32:18
SPEAKER_00: Their strategies have just gotten smarter.
32:21
SPEAKER_00: It's like, you know, you're 20s, right?
32:23
So the way I see it is that you're in 20s,
32:25
you break net speed,
32:26
you're making mistakes.
32:27
SPEAKER_00: And now it's like the millennial generation, essentially.
32:30
SPEAKER_00: You're just being more curious about things.
32:32
SPEAKER_00: You're more intentional about how you bring it forward.
32:34
SPEAKER_00: So I think that's where we are at right now.
32:36
SPEAKER_00: You know,
32:37
this might actually make Southeast Asian tech more globally
32:40
competitive in the long
32:41
SPEAKER_00: run.
32:42
Companies built on sustainable fundamentals tend to be a bit
32:45
more resilient when
32:46
SPEAKER_00: they expand into new markets.
32:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
32:49
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
32:50
SPEAKER_01: when we think of all the things going on in the world,
32:52
SPEAKER_01: we have climate change,
32:53
SPEAKER_01: resource constraints,
32:55
SPEAKER_01: geopolitics,
32:56
SPEAKER_01: geopolitical tensions,
32:57
SPEAKER_01: supply chain disruptions.
32:59
We've got all this kind of crazy stuff that's making life
33:02
uncertain,
33:03
difficult,
33:04
complex.
33:05
This is the kind of resilient,
33:07
sustainable approach that we need in tech development.
33:10
SPEAKER_01: It's not just a smart business.
33:13
SPEAKER_01: It's essential in order to build durable companies.
33:16
SPEAKER_01: And that's what we need more of in the ecosystem is durable businesses.
33:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
33:22
it's just grown up a little and grown up ambitions tend to
33:25
create solutions that
33:26
SPEAKER_00: actually stick around and make a lasting impact.
33:29
SPEAKER_00: So for our listeners who are building companies,
33:32
SPEAKER_00: investing or just trying to understand where C-Tech is headed,
33:36
SPEAKER_00: what are the key takeaways?
33:38
SPEAKER_01: Fundamentals matter more than ever.
33:41
SPEAKER_01: Unit economics, sustainable growth, clear paths to profitability.
33:45
SPEAKER_01: These are table stakes now.
33:47
They're requirements if you're going to find investors willing
33:50
to back your dream.
33:51
SPEAKER_00: And these are massive opportunities in B2B services,
33:55
SPEAKER_00: especially around AI transformation,
33:57
SPEAKER_00: like we spoke earlier,
33:57
SPEAKER_00: cloud migration,
33:59
SPEAKER_00: and digital infrastructure for traditional industries.
34:01
SPEAKER_00: So leveling up, essentially.
34:03
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
34:04
SPEAKER_01: We can't skip the geopolitical dimension, which is real and growing.
34:10
SPEAKER_01: It's unfortunate but true.
34:11
SPEAKER_01: Companies need to think strategically about the supply chains,
34:14
SPEAKER_01: data governance,
34:16
regulatory compliance across multiple jurisdictions and all the
34:19
complexities
34:20
SPEAKER_01: thereof.
34:21
SPEAKER_00: Just like life is a marathon, not a sprint.
34:24
And companies who thrive in this new environment are the ones
34:26
built for long-term
34:27
SPEAKER_00: rather than short-term metrics,
34:29
SPEAKER_00: not just vanity too.
34:32
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
34:32
SPEAKER_01: We're entering into a super interesting period in Southeast Asia tech.
34:37
Easy money,
34:38
fast money is gone,
34:39
but the real opportunities are just believing.
34:41
SPEAKER_01: And I'm a strong proponent of that,
34:43
SPEAKER_01: very much championing the Southeast Asia tech ecosystem here.
34:47
SPEAKER_00: And that's episode 12 of Sea of Startups.
34:49
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for diving deep with me on this one, Kevin.
34:52
SPEAKER_00: And it has felt like one of those conversations we really needed to have,
34:55
taking our time to really understanding what's happening
34:57
beneath the surface.
34:58
SPEAKER_00: And for everyone listening, we'd love to hear your thoughts.
35:01
SPEAKER_00: Are you seeing these shifts in your own experience?
35:04
SPEAKER_00: How are you adapting to this new reality?
35:06
SPEAKER_01: Drop us a line, leave us a comment.
35:07
SPEAKER_01: If you're building something in this new landscape, reach out.
35:10
We're always looking for stories to highlight and see what's
35:14
happening on the ground.
35:14
SPEAKER_00: And if today's conversation sparks something for you,
35:16
SPEAKER_00: share it with someone who needs to hear it.
35:19
They're the kinds of discussions that help all of us navigate
35:21
change more effectively.
35:24
SPEAKER_00: Until next time,
35:24
SPEAKER_00: keep building,
35:26
SPEAKER_00: keep adapting,
35:26
SPEAKER_00: and remember the most resilient companies are often built during the most
35:30
SPEAKER_00: challenging periods.
35:32
SPEAKER_00: Challenging periods equals the opportunity.
35:33
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening to Sea of Startups.
35:35
SPEAKER_01: See you next time.