Latest / Show, don't Tell Writing with Suzy Vadori / 68. Fantasy with Richie Billing

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68. Fantasy with Richie Billing · Show, don't Tell Writing with Suzy Vadori

• 0:07
  Welcome to Show.
• 0:07
  Don't Tell Writing with me, Suzy Vidori, where I teach you the tried and true secrets to writing fiction nonfiction that are gonna wow your readers broken down step by step.
• 0:18
  We're gonna explore writing techniques.
• 0:21
  I'm gonna show you a glimpse behind the scenes of successful writers' careers that you wouldn't have access to otherwise.
• 0:27
  And I'm also gonna coach writers live on their pages so that you can learn and transform your own storytelling.
• 0:33
  Whether you're just starting out, you're drafting your first book, you're editing, or you're currently rewriting that book, or maybe even your 10th book, this show's gonna help you unlock the writing skills that you didn't even know you needed, but you definitely do.
• 0:48
  I'm so looking forward to helping you get your amazing ideas from your mind onto your pages in an exciting way for both you and your readers, so that you can achieve your wildest writing dreams, and you're gonna also have some fun doing it.
• 1:02
  Let's dive in.
• 1:03
  Today we welcome Richie billing to the show and I, I just love the conversation that we were able to have because he has such a wide knowledge of the fantasy genre.
• 1:14
  So if you are curious about what it's like to write fantasy, what's going on in fantasy, all of that.
• 1:19
  He is the host of the popular podcast, the Fantasy Writers Tool shed, and he gets to talk to hundreds of writers about fantasy.
• 1:28
  So we do that today.
• 1:29
  We talk about what it is to write fantasy, how his process is when he builds a world, and then we talk a little bit about his books.
• 1:38
  He writes all kinds of stories, actually, not just books from short story to novels to, uh, recently released novella, but mostly in fantasy and literary fiction.
• 1:51
  His tales often explore real world issues, which is one of those cool things that you could do in fantasy.
• 1:56
  It's how you can address things that are happening in today's world, and Richie shares what kinds of things he shares or writes about in this episode, but with a fantasy twist so that we don't feel like we're reading a news report.
• 2:10
  He focuses on characters and their troubles, and so we kind of follow the characters through that journey and what becomes of them so he can play out different scenarios.
• 2:19
  His short fiction has been published by the Mark has Review and Gas Lab, pulp Z among others, with one story adapted for BBC radio.
• 2:29
  In March, 2025, Richie released his fantasy novella.
• 2:32
  Together.
• 2:33
  We Rise, that We talk about quite a bit in this podcast episode.
• 2:37
  It's a timely book about fighting corruption and injustice.
• 2:41
  Richie also hosts the podcast, the Fantasy Writers Tool Shed, and links to all of that or in the show notes.
• 2:48
  Welcome, Richie.
• 2:49
  It is so great to have you on the podcast today.
• 2:53
  Thank you very much for inviting me on Suzie.
• 2:55
  It's lovely to be here.
• 2:56
  We wanted to do when we were talking about planning this, this session, we wanted to talk about fantasy as a whole.
• 3:03
  Because many of my listeners, you know, they might write fantasy or they're not sure if they're writing fantasy or they're interested in writing fantasy.
• 3:09
  So what does fantasy mean to you, Richie?
• 3:12
  And not to put you on the spot, we can have a back and forth on it, but what is this like, so-called genre, this big umbrella of fantasy to you?
• 3:21
  Yeah, it's um, it's definitely one that's.
• 3:24
  Garnered a lot of attention for decades and more recently, like it's become more mainstream.
• 3:29
  And I think for me it's a, a world of not like different to ours.
• 3:35
  I mean, there's a spectrum there that you can include, but probably on the more extreme side of fantasy, you've got something that completely different from where we are now.
• 3:44
  There might be dragons, there might be magic, and it, it sort of, that spectrum goes all the way to sort of almost like Harry Potter level where.
• 3:52
  It's like a hidden world within our world.
• 3:55
  And I think that's one of the best things about it, is that it brings in bits of every genre.
• 4:01
  You still, you can have romantic fans, most popular humor.
• 4:04
  Yes.
• 4:04
  Which is what I raised.
• 4:05
  Yeah, exactly.
• 4:07
  Not romantic.
• 4:08
  That's a different thing.
• 4:08
  We can talk about that too, but that's different.
• 4:10
  Keep going.
• 4:11
  Yeah.
• 4:12
  But then you can have almost like, uh, crime stories with fancy will.
• 4:17
  You've got like the sort of epics like Game of throne and there's so much, it's so rich and I think that what the reason why I love it is you can tell real world stories and probably real world issues, but you just got this complete reading to tell it in any way that you want.
• 4:35
  Yeah, I mean, you nailed it.
• 4:36
  It's really just a world that isn't.
• 4:39
  It would be magical realism.
• 4:41
  I think you were alluding to where it's, it's in our world, but there's some magical elements or a completely fantastical world, uh, which may or may not have magic.
• 4:50
  There are categories of people can debate this.
• 4:53
  There are categories of fantasy where there is actually no magic, but you might not notice because the world is so cool that you just automatically assume that there's magic there.
• 5:03
  But.
• 5:03
  I know I've got a a few writer friends that write there in that space after writing in Pure Fantasy Worlds, and then they're like, woo, I'm missing my dead out of jail free card.
• 5:12
  Which is the magic.
• 5:13
  You write yourself into a corner.
• 5:15
  You can't just magic your way out of it, right.
• 5:17
  When you don't have magic in your world.
• 5:19
  But yeah, it's really that.
• 5:22
  And I think when I go to conferences and they speak to writers all over the world.
• 5:26
  And they ask why they read fantasy.
• 5:29
  If I'm teaching something about magic systems or something and they ask, why are you reading fantasy?
• 5:34
  Like, what is it about it?
• 5:36
  And I get that same answer all the time.
• 5:39
  It doesn't matter who the room is or if I'm teaching students like kids, adults doesn't matter.
• 5:44
  The answers are escape entertainment, right?
• 5:47
  Like that they wanna get away.
• 5:49
  But you're absolutely right.
• 5:51
  The lasting fantasy, the ones that do really well, often have real world events that they draw on are real world themes, and that's sort of what you were alluding to, and whether that's the world itself that's influenced by a culture or whether you're mirroring something in a slightly safer environment so that it doesn't feel like we're, you know.
• 6:14
  Social studies lesson or something, or a history lesson, but we're learning it in a new way.
• 6:20
  Yeah.
• 6:21
  Yeah.
• 6:21
  I think we get so like so much is thrown at us and consistently all the negative news and it's hard for us to really engage with it.
• 6:30
  After a while we become desy and to really like understand perspectives.
• 6:37
  And this was some nuances of different, sometimes you need to take a step back and put it in a, a story setting and create characters that people can relate to and show them what it it's actually like, um, to be from a different perspective that we might be opposed to.
• 6:54
  And.
• 6:55
  Stories.
• 6:56
  This is one of the best thing about stories, isn't it?
• 6:58
  Is that, um, it allows people to sort of look at something without the sort of biases that they've got in day-today life.
• 7:05
  They can sort of go at some, a more open mind, and that's how you do culture and any sort of creative thing.
• 7:11
  You've got the ability to reach people, um, who are wise closed off.
• 7:15
  Yeah.
• 7:15
  I mean, is that what draws you to writing fantasy?
• 7:18
  Is being able to explore that or is it something else that keeps you writing fantasy?
• 7:23
  For me, it is the, it's the escape, like being able to do something in cultivating that could be, but more recently it has been more of a sort of way to tell a story that is like about our world.
• 7:37
  Our world has become more, feel well being, more and more like a fantasy world to be on.
• 7:42
  Yeah.
• 7:43
  Creating donor.
• 7:44
  Well, it's enabling me to sort of process things as a writer and as a person as well.
• 7:50
  And it's a, like I say, with Together We Rise, it was more sort of focused on me trying to deal with frustrations and helplessness because we are sort of battered out with Bad Knee.
• 8:03
  It's, and the books, books are, are really.
• 8:06
  We were so prevalent and I mean my feeds are full of, a lot of it's AI ed now.
• 8:12
  It's just regurgitating the same thing or changing it.
• 8:14
  But yes, it's so accessible and I am, I'm with you.
• 8:19
  I some of my favorite.
• 8:21
  Genres to read or historical fiction or, you know, really tricky mystery, those types of things.
• 8:27
  But when I sit down to write it, it's always fantasy and, and there's a few reasons for that.
• 8:33
  You were talking about trying to process things or working through things and writing is always personal.
• 8:39
  So if you're out there listening and you're writing a novel, I can guarantee you that there, you know, if you hadn't taken a beat to think about it.
• 8:45
  There probably is something, some reason, some deeper reason that you're writing about, that you're trying to process at this mo this particular novel at this particular moment in time, and there's no shame in that.
• 8:57
  That's what makes the magic, you know, different from fantasy magic, but that's what makes your writing special and unique and that can only come from you.
• 9:07
  That's actually what been going on in my head, in your own.
• 9:10
  Yeah, I mean, I'm, because I coach it, I'm actually hyper aware of it.
• 9:15
  It sometimes stops me from writing, so I'm like, woo, that's on the page.
• 9:18
  And I feel like everybody's, especially when they first start writing, I felt like people were gonna see themselves in my characters and understand what I was pr.
• 9:27
  But guess what?
• 9:28
  They don't, and, and, you know, five or six drafts in, you've morphed that idea so much that people aren't gonna recognize the specific events or they don't really know, you know, is this something that Susie did or is it something she wished she did?
• 9:42
  Is it something she wished she did differently?
• 9:44
  Is it something she never did?
• 9:45
  Right.
• 9:45
  Uh, all of those things that you can only really.
• 9:49
  Right.
• 9:50
  From your own perspective in that, whether it's something you would do or something you wouldn't do or something you want to do.
• 9:56
  I, it's all kind of colored by that.
• 9:59
  Yeah.
• 10:00
  Um, yeah.
• 10:01
  Human mind, I think.
• 10:03
  Yeah.
• 10:03
  I mean, I love, like I said, I love reading historical fiction in particular, uh, and working with historical writers.
• 10:10
  For me, that research isn't a draw.
• 10:14
  So if I'm writing, I don't wanna spend that time researching because like you said, we're inundated with news these days and um, certainly temporary news.
• 10:23
  And I just don't want that as part of my process.
• 10:25
  I wanna make things up.
• 10:27
  That's part of the fun of being a fantasy writer.
• 10:29
  We get to make it out.
• 10:30
  Yeah.
• 10:32
  True.
• 10:32
  Are you just thinking deeply about this?
• 10:34
  You're like, yeah, I guess I make things up.
• 10:35
  It's pure fiction.
• 10:37
  Right.
• 10:37
  Um, and I think you bring a lot of historical, like you kind of blend those two little I love fiction as well.
• 10:43
  Yeah.
• 10:44
  So I, I love the medieval sense.
• 10:45
  I don't know why.
• 10:46
  And so do you do a lot of research for that?
• 10:48
  I mean, this is why, it's why I write.
• 10:50
  I have pure like, fantasy worlds that don't have a lot of historical influence for myself.
• 10:54
  Um, but I, I love, love, love that you do that research.
• 10:57
  And so what kind of research would you do and how true to the historical setting do you stay, uh, versus where do you give yourself some leeway?
• 11:07
  And, and don't worry too much about the accuracy.
• 11:10
  Yeah, so I, I like, I, I'm like you, I absolutely love historical fiction and, um, I, I have studied it as well.
• 11:17
  So I, medieval history is the, the, that period for me, the sort of anywhere, well to be honest, anywhere from like ancient Greece up to like maybe 12, 13 hundreds before canons really things started getting a bit dickering.
• 11:31
  The cans, so, well it was groom before then, anyway, people cutting each other's heads up and whatnot.
• 11:37
  But, um, I just like that sort of.
• 11:40
  I just, for me it just feels like every, it probably wasn't, but took, it felt like, or feels like that life was a bit of a battle, more of a battle in it.
• 11:48
  Now got, it's almost a metaphor, right?
• 11:51
  Like life was worth something different or just a very different experience then.
• 11:56
  Mm. Yeah.
• 11:57
  So I just feel like, um, there's already a layer of comfort there that you've got, and it's interesting to sort of add layers to it then with like magic and like the different aspects of world building.
• 12:08
  Like, uh, I've seen one person write a story where it was in Paris world, infested one, one guy.
• 12:16
  So we were just talking about historical and how had you ever written a contemporary novel or a novel without magic in it, even if it was historical.
• 12:26
  Not a novel, but I do like short stories and stuff.
• 12:30
  I got told, I wrote, actually wrote a magical realism, short story this year, got published a year, and that was about the war and garden.
• 12:38
  Um Oh wow.
• 12:39
  Yeah, so that was just, it's called Harden from Dragons, and it's about two young, two brothers, two young boys at trying to escape their war zone.
• 12:48
  And the main character, he's so traumatized that he sees jets as dragons.
• 12:53
  Um, so, 'cause he loves fantasy.
• 12:55
  So his world was sort of becomes this horrible fantasy world now.
• 12:58
  And so that, again, this is just whatever is on my mind, what I'm trying to deal with and process, that's what built us through and influences what I right.
• 13:08
  Like I'm writing another short story or just finishing it, lockdown editing.
• 13:11
  And it's about basically conscription because there's been a lot of talk in this country and in Europe about people getting scripted into the arms.
• 13:20
  Yeah.
• 13:21
  Which is something that we never thought we'd see in our lifetime.
• 13:23
  And there's these huge shifts happening right where your mind changes and it's easy to say in peace times.
• 13:30
  It's easy to say, oh, like I don't support that.
• 13:32
  And then.
• 13:33
  How you get challenged is certainly, uh, I love that you're writing about that, but still is, is that book still fantasy?
• 13:41
  Is there magic in it that isn't a fantasy?
• 13:44
  Well, that story, one book conscription, but yeah, I have, I've wrote written stories like about homelessness and the poem home.
• 13:52
  I've written one story, story also set in, but not long.
• 13:57
  It's all short stories maybe.
• 13:59
  Yeah.
• 14:00
  Maybe one day.
• 14:01
  I, I love that.
• 14:02
  And I mean, I write a lot of nonfiction as well because I teach writing.
• 14:05
  I write about writing.
• 14:06
  Uh, it's a little bit meta, but in terms of fiction.
• 14:11
  It's a challenge for me to not include something.
• 14:14
  There was a time in 2020 when ya fantasy was slow.
• 14:19
  There was a bit of a glut and it wasn't selling as well.
• 14:21
  And you know, I spoke with my agent and they suggested that I write a contemporary novel and I did on proposal.
• 14:28
  I wrote a proposal for contemporary novel called My Agent partway through like maybe chapter four, and I'm like, okay, here's the thing.
• 14:35
  I was writing a contemporary novel, man.
• 14:37
  An pirate ship showed up and I'm just roll with this, try to write a contemporary novel with no magic in it.
• 14:44
  And, uh, my agent was like, yeah, no, that tracks let's, let's go with that.
• 14:48
  And so we did, but we, I didn't end up writing the full book, but I, it might go back to that one because I just love it, but.
• 14:54
  That was sort what, where it took me, I tried and then I was like, no, this is not gonna work.
• 14:59
  And all of a sudden we had magic splashing and exploding all over the page.
• 15:05
  And that's just, you know, what made it fun for me.
• 15:09
  Yeah.
• 15:09
  And love, love, love your podcast.
• 15:11
  Oh, thank God.
• 15:11
  And yeah, and thank you for doing it.
• 15:14
  And you get to talk to a lot of writers and one of the things that.
• 15:18
  I've noticed that you like to talk about with writers is how they grow with each and every story, and so you're talking about writing different genres and writing in different mediums and all of these things and writing short stories and a novel, and you now have a novella, right?
• 15:35
  Like all of these different things.
• 15:37
  Is that part of what's fun for you in writing is learning and changing and exploring those different lengths of story?
• 15:46
  Yeah, I found it really interesting, but the main reason why I sort of pivoted this, because I just got really tired.
• 15:52
  The writing novels take too long to end.
• 15:56
  Tell me about it.
• 15:57
  Literally, my job is editing novels.
• 15:58
  Well, yeah, so I got, I got it just became a, a chore, and so I just like, oh, go back through that.
• 16:05
  And that's when I started together.
• 16:06
  We rides and since then I've just been working on shows and stuff and I've enjoyed it a lot more.
• 16:12
  I might be say, playing with structure, playing with form.
• 16:15
  That's something that's been interested in me a lot more.
• 16:17
  So I, I've written two short stories with, I would say unique structures.
• 16:22
  One is a fantasy story, and it's basically a weekly to-do list.
• 16:28
  They're a goblin.
• 16:28
  She, oh my goodness, that sounds amazing.
• 16:32
  And it absolutely links in with another short story, which is like the opposite of 8,000 word.
• 16:38
  But, um, it sort of, you get like a, an idea of what's going on by getting these sort of bullet pointed things that he needs to do, and sometimes you get a bit of a reasoning behind why you've gotta do it.
• 16:50
  Um, so like he's going through like a, a tough town with his, his wife getting kicked off of the house.
• 16:54
  Then there's some trouble with the fme.
• 16:56
  You mean No problems in all.
• 16:58
  I wish the listeners could actually see your face.
• 17:00
  We're recording this and you won't get to see the video, but Richie is absolutely lit up and you can't tell'cause he's very chill, but absolutely grinning from ear to ear when he talks about this goblins to-do list and it just makes me wanna read it to be honest.
• 17:14
  It just, um.
• 17:16
  You had fun with it and I love it.
• 17:18
  And I see that, um, the short story is written, is it from eight point of view characters?
• 17:24
  Is that, is that correct?
• 17:25
  Yeah, it's Together Arises, it's eight characters, so you could technically call it a short Golden Apology, both oh eight characters.
• 17:32
  But are they all pointed view characters or there's just eight characters in this story?
• 17:36
  Eight principally characters, yeah.
• 17:38
  Yeah.
• 17:38
  So each one's got one chapter each.
• 17:40
  I like to think of it as like a relay race.
• 17:42
  So each character passes.
• 17:44
  Baton onto the next one.
• 17:46
  So there's like a bit of overlap.
• 17:48
  There's a connection.
• 17:49
  There's like a thread.
• 17:49
  Thread.
• 17:50
  There's a thread, right?
• 17:50
  There's a thread and the story continues.
• 17:52
  Oh, so challenging and, but I mean, you've been writing for a long time and so when you're listening podcast, if you're writing your first novel, we don't need to try every single structure, fancy structure thing because sometimes.
• 18:07
  As beginning writers, we often will see something that really inspires us, and then we wanna tackle these really crazy structures.
• 18:13
  And I often have to tell writers, Hey, don't do it.
• 18:17
  And for your first book, because.
• 18:20
  You brought a long life of, of writing ahead of you.
• 18:23
  I challenge you to just eat, what is it?
• 18:25
  What is the Eminem commercial?
• 18:26
  Is it m and m's?
• 18:27
  Just you can't eat just one or bet you can't eat just one.
• 18:30
  I don't know.
• 18:30
  It's some commercial, but the same thing with novels or books.
• 18:34
  You're gonna have a chance and your first book, you're often working on so many other things that creating a complex structure, you're making things harder for yourself.
• 18:44
  And to be honest, I mean unless your book is.
• 18:47
  A thriller or a suspense novel where the structure is kind of part of it.
• 18:52
  You don't need it necessarily to write a great book.
• 18:55
  So the payoff isn't there for all the extra work, but for those of us who are career writers or addicted forever to writing, changing that up, it does keep it fresh, right?
• 19:06
  Writing in different formats or writing in different structures, or playing with it.
• 19:10
  I've never written something with eight point of view characters, right?
• 19:13
  Like something like that.
• 19:14
  As you get more and more advanced can create more interest so that you don't get bored, uh, when you've kind of mastered the basics.
• 19:23
  Is that why you do that challenge yourself?
• 19:26
  Yeah.
• 19:27
  I, I seem challenged.
• 19:28
  Yeah.
• 19:28
  I completely agree with what you say there because I was saying it for someone on another podcast and it's like, when I started writing, I was like, oh, gonna like read two book fantasy series, be the great sponsor story of.
• 19:42
  You wanna write the most epic thing to start, right?
• 19:45
  Yeah.
• 19:45
  I so many people do that.
• 19:46
  They go, I'm gonna write a 10 book savings.
• 19:48
  And I just think now, don't do that yourself.
• 19:51
  Just start, you're making it way harder on yourself.
• 19:53
  Yeah.
• 19:54
  See how it goes.
• 19:56
  You short stories, but used to tell'em complete stories and then scale up your project and learn, focus on learning, but in skill, like dialogue.
• 20:04
  So like I, I've got a bit of a course that I, I've not yet done, but I've started dealing with the library system in a book, which is 10 parts or so.
• 20:14
  Um, each one you just focus on specific thing and then you use the skills that you've learned there to write a short story, which is quite specific.
• 20:21
  So if, if it was like dialogue.
• 20:24
  A conversation, a conversation based, short story, and we have to sort of get your capitalization in the plot and resolution as well as doing it through dialogue.
• 20:33
  It's the only way you can learn, isn't that?
• 20:35
  Totally, yeah.
• 20:36
  You need to get the basics down and together we rise is set in your ever expanding world.
• 20:41
  Turia and I saying that right?
• 20:43
  Tevia?
• 20:43
  Yeah.
• 20:43
  Yeah.
• 20:44
  Well, I'm not saying it with the Liverpool accent, so let's hear you say it Ted.
• 20:47
  Yeah.
• 20:48
  That's how you say it correctly.
• 20:49
  But tell us what is that world like?
• 20:52
  So the best way I have to explain it is that I love, the reason I'm Draw fantasy is that this philosophical debate between good new, what is good, what is evil, what is the very nature of it.
• 21:04
  I philosophy is like a big part of new read and of through and do the writing.
• 21:11
  In this world, I'm trying to explain the nature of good meal and I see it and in this world of life and I is nothing.
• 21:18
  The two opposing forces and in, in sort of being to make it as hard as possible to be destroyed by the nothingness, life is sort of split and created and sort of spread across there.
• 21:30
  So this battle between good and evil is waged on every layer of life.
• 21:36
  So humans, insects, fish, whatever.
• 21:39
  'cause sometimes you see animals doing mad things like you'll see uh, a lion ravage or the build a pizza or something.
• 21:47
  And then the next step thing we'll do a video and you'll see like a wolf and a bear just rolling out together and a couple of mates and it type.
• 21:53
  There's something going on there we can't quite explain and this is my, in my fancy world anyway, this is a way of trying to explain sort of the good, the nature of good Neil.
• 22:02
  And in this particular story, the main bad guys, this, these sort of, this group, I call it the chira.
• 22:09
  They're trying to bring about a more demonic life.
• 22:13
  So ter, so their task, they leading pre it to open de portals and they're constantly trying to find way to do that and then trying to stop them at the good guys.
• 22:24
  They're called them magpies and they're sort of job is to maintain balance and order in the world.
• 22:30
  It's a bit of a shadow war that goes on between, but every now and then a spill route into the wider world.
• 22:36
  And in this particular story there, um, the RA have sort of senior control of the Sydney of p Tellis where stories and they create good.
• 22:46
  Oracle Capsule Evil at its core.
• 22:49
  Um, and, uh, the people of, and one of the people involved in the Story Hill, she's lived in the city a whole life and she's ended up getting married, quite an abusive person, and he is a captain in the, in the police force, the city guard.
• 23:04
  So he's got a position of power, but he's using it for evil.
• 23:09
  The police are just another gang in this.
• 23:11
  They're another gang.
• 23:12
  Okay, good.
• 23:13
  Interesting perspective in your world.
• 23:15
  You can do whatever you like.
• 23:16
  Definitely.
• 23:17
  Yeah.
• 23:17
  So it's pretty grim, but still feather and she ends up, long story short, she needs this revolution and the story is the day of the revolution.
• 23:25
  Um, so that's all backstory that you don't get in.
• 23:27
  Yeah, exactly.
• 23:28
  And backstory, I mean, backstory, it, it's funny because that's where many fantasy writers start.
• 23:33
  And I like to say you need it as the writer, but that probably isn't all in the book.
• 23:38
  Right.
• 23:38
  So if you read the, yeah, if you read the novella, you're not gonna get all of that that you just heard from Richie.
• 23:44
  You gotta kind of, yeah.
• 23:45
  Figure it out as along the way, as, as you should.
• 23:48
  And so you talk about it ever expanding the, the sort of, as it's expanding, this is what we need to do to keep it fresh.
• 23:56
  Was this something that you planned at the beginning, your magic system or, or that world building?
• 24:03
  Did you know where it was going or is it adding to itself?
• 24:06
  Are you finding you kind of reach a limit of ex exploration and then you have to invent a new corner of the world?
• 24:13
  Or how is it expanding?
• 24:15
  I've always sort of focused on this era in the work to sort of this period of times suppose where these two forces that I mentioned, they've been waging more and going at each other hundred years and the balance is no start to be the bad guys.
• 24:29
  They've just discovered as we learn in together your eyes magic again, magic is does exist in the world, but it's been like.
• 24:37
  If anyone who knows anything about it being like long killed off, and there's, there's very few sort of relics left of it.
• 24:44
  Like there's a few enchanted the weapon so people know that magic is the thing.
• 24:49
  Do they call it?
• 24:50
  Do they call it magic, like the actual word magic, or do they have a different word for it?
• 24:54
  I call it maje, M-A-G-E-A.
• 24:58
  Just little skin, not one of them.
• 25:00
  I, I love just pointing out little tricks for the listeners because it's one of the things, you know in your world, yes, we talk about magic systems, but if your characters are always calling it magic, I like to use the example.
• 25:13
  If I was somebody from the 1920s coming into a classroom today and seeing all the kids on their phones, talking to people on video, I might think that was magic.
• 25:21
  Right?
• 25:22
  But now it's just an iPhone or a phone, right?
• 25:25
  Or a FaceTime or whatever.
• 25:27
  We know the names of it.
• 25:28
  And so, yeah.
• 25:29
  I love that you called it something different to make it unique to your world.
• 25:32
  'cause it can be really tiring.
• 25:33
  And I've done this before.
• 25:35
  Sent a manuscript and my agent says, Susie, you have like the word magic 257 times.
• 25:41
  Well, let's change it up.
• 25:42
  Right?
• 25:42
  So, yeah, making, it's one of the things, I mean, we can't dive into everything today.
• 25:46
  I wish we could, but it's one of the things that you can do to make your.
• 25:50
  World feel really special.
• 25:52
  And you know, you also use the, the what Twigged it was, you said enchanted, right?
• 25:57
  So you're not saying they're magic weapons, they're enchanted weapons and we're kind of mixing that up and having, putting a little bit more meaning around it because it can be really boring to just call it magic.
• 26:06
  Yeah.
• 26:07
  Awesome.
• 26:08
  So how is it, you know, what else are you adding to it and where are you going with this world?
• 26:12
  Will it feature in in future stories or are you down with it?
• 26:15
  Definitely, yeah.
• 26:16
  So basically together we rise is the beginning of the.
• 26:20
  Did great battle or the presage of where the, the, the chira is starting to take hold and I've written a novel, which is the one I abandoned that, which I, I will go back then.
• 26:30
  But that is the next part of the story and the chira of pride, something else.
• 26:36
  Um, it's ended in this really destructive war between hu humans who live in this remote part and the being sort of battling these huge sort of troll like.
• 26:49
  Descended from the mountains and, and just laying weights there to everyone.
• 26:54
  So that's more of like a sort, it's a, it's a greatly migrant story, but it's about a young mother, uh, a widowed mother trying to escape as she's got across the water on country to get to the border.
• 27:08
  And that, again, very much inspired by what's been going on in the world.
• 27:11
  And horrendous attitude could work toward minds.
• 27:14
  I love that we appreciate the stories and the, the thing that people have to go to just to survive and then we get sort of this cold encount up you and we think about it as this history, but it's happening today in our world, right?
• 27:30
  Like there are many wartorn countries in many displaced people.
• 27:34
  Okay, let's go back to this abandoned novel for a minute.
• 27:38
  And I just wanna say, let's just normalize this because, you know, there's, there's not, and you're gonna go back to it.
• 27:45
  Maybe you will, maybe you won't.
• 27:47
  I don't know.
• 27:48
  But it does happen as writers and I think, you know what, what we talk about as writer's block or something is what we think that is Richie sitting there going, I can't finish this novel and banging his head on the table or something.
• 28:00
  But, but realistically, there's lots of reasons why writers can change course.
• 28:06
  You had mentioned it was just becoming overwhelming and you wanted to get something accomplished, right?
• 28:11
  Like so you, you switched to the novella.
• 28:14
  What's gonna allow you to go back to it?
• 28:16
  Did writing that novella kind of crystallize that world in your mind and now you're excited to go back to the novel or what do you need to get back there?
• 28:24
  What do you think?
• 28:26
  I just needed a break from the source of the drain of editing, and I was working, I worked with a professional editor on it and I got all in.
• 28:34
  Really.
• 28:35
  Um, well, it's, I made the end 200 pages in, I was like 300.
• 28:38
  So I will go back to it, but at the time it was just, I couldn't do it.
• 28:43
  I just lost interest and it partly because of fucking things going on in the world and just, uh, I just, I can't be writing about.
• 28:53
  About Orps, did you say?
• 28:54
  No, I said, I said I don't really feel like it's worthwhile writing about Orps at this particular moment.
• 28:59
  From that, we need it more than ever.
• 29:01
  We need it more than ever, but I get it.
• 29:04
  And the test, you know, I've abandoned novels before as well.
• 29:07
  And I may go back to them or may not.
• 29:11
  And one of the tests that we like to talk about with people who walk away is, Hey, if you put it aside and you're okay and you don't miss it, maybe it's not the right time.
• 29:21
  Like you said, we're always.
• 29:23
  Writing a specific book at a specific moment in time for a reason and we change as people.
• 29:28
  I have a book that, that was on submission five years ago now in the time when I mentioned earlier when ya was kind of in a bit of a Slump ya fantasy in terms of publishing and now I think about going back to it, I'm a different person.
• 29:42
  I wanna write about different things and I don't, I'll, I might take it and figure out how to make it cont, like make it more what I want to see today and the.
• 29:51
  The industry has changed and trends have changed.
• 29:53
  Yes.
• 29:54
  And readership changed, but I've changed as a human and the work that I wanna put out there at a particular moment in time changes as well.
• 30:01
  So I think, I don't know if that book, it certainly won't be in that for, yeah, that's, I think it's what is a really important, important point that you make because sometimes I think people get stuck.
• 30:11
  You like, I'm gonna write in and then you sort of box themselves in.
• 30:16
  But you should always have the freedom to do what you want, like.
• 30:20
  You said if you not hearing it or you, you change, you just change then don't be afraid to change.
• 30:27
  Allow your stories to change, you know?
• 30:30
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 30:32
  Yeah.
• 30:32
  And keep revisiting that because if you put it away and you're okay leaving it, maybe leave it.
• 30:38
  And if you put it away and you can't stop thinking about it, you're writing all these novellas and short stories in that world still.
• 30:44
  And you can't stop thinking, oh my gosh, I just need to finish that novel and I can't wait to get back to it.
• 30:48
  Then that's a totally different feeling.
• 30:50
  Then you definitely need to finish it and we'll be cheering you on.
• 30:53
  But there's nothing wrong with stepping away from a project and letting it go, even if it means 200 pages.
• 31:00
  Right.
• 31:00
  Everything that you learn by doing that will end up somewhere, somewhere else.
• 31:05
  All that learning.
• 31:05
  Right.
• 31:06
  Okay.
• 31:07
  We've come to the quick fire portion of my podcast, so we've got some couple quick questions for you that I ask as many writers as I can because I think they're really important for people to hear and we try to do the behind the scenes.
• 31:20
  Are you ready?
• 31:21
  Yeah, I'm ready.
• 31:22
  All right.
• 31:22
  How long did it take you to finish your first full length book?
• 31:27
  Yeah, two and a half years.
• 31:30
  Two and a half years from the time that you thought, I'm gonna write a book and here's what it's gonna be about, to the time that you either stopped writing it or press publish.
• 31:39
  Yeah.
• 31:39
  Well I start, well I started planning it and then it went to publisher and that I was part-time.
• 31:45
  So, uh, I imagine I could do it faster full time.
• 31:49
  You can always do, no, two and a half years is a very, is actually pretty fast.
• 31:53
  I always love it when people come up with 11 years or something and you, because we think.
• 31:58
  There's this misconception that most writers write quickly, and certainly we write books 2, 3, 4, 5.
• 32:04
  We write much more quickly in general.
• 32:06
  I mean, I'm not the fastest writer planet, so, and I had a 50 to a hundred books a year right now.
• 32:12
  So at some, like some piece of them, not the entire manuscript obviously.
• 32:16
  So I give myself some grips that I'm not the fastest writer.
• 32:20
  But yeah, it's a long time.
• 32:21
  It's a long time because you've gotta kind of.
• 32:24
  And when I, the biggest misconception I, I had was when I quit my corporate job to do things writing all full time, that I would all of a sudden be able to sit down and write and replicate my best days ever, which were like 10,000 words when I was sitting down once a month because I, that's all I had.
• 32:42
  Yeah.
• 32:42
  But sitting down every day, there's all that thinking and marinating time and you've gotta sort of form it and you can't just sit down and keep pounding 'cause there's nothing there.
• 32:51
  Yeah.
• 32:52
  Yeah.
• 32:53
  Yeah, I, I'd like to say too, that when you write your next books, you do get faster, but not, I mean, yeah, you learn things and you know things, but you spend a lot less time wallowing in the, am I doing this right?
• 33:05
  You know, do I really have to do all that editing?
• 33:08
  Is it really gonna make it better?
• 33:10
  Will anybody, all that stuff.
• 33:12
  Once you've done it, once, you kind of let all that baggage go and you spend much less time like spinning.
• 33:18
  Um, yeah, makes it faster.
• 33:22
  Find your own process a bit more and learn how you work and then it doesn't, like you can sort of map it out.
• 33:29
  So like I was to say now if I was playing a short story, I'd be like, alright, I'm gonna need a route three or 4,000 word tell the story.
• 33:38
  If I do this, I can probably draft it three year, four day, like that kind of thing.
• 33:43
  Because you know how you work and then you can easily plan it out.
• 33:47
  Yeah.
• 33:47
  It's just experience.
• 33:50
  Absolutely.
• 33:51
  And, and I wish I could bottle that and feed it to a new rider, sweaty cat.
• 33:55
  'cause you gotta figure out how you like to work and that's the whole point ly the gym.
• 33:59
  Right.
• 34:00
  What was your first big break where you were like, what was the moment when you're like, all right, I'm a real writer.
• 34:06
  This is happening.
• 34:08
  I think it was, rather than I first got a short story published, it is by, um, a print called the magazine.
• 34:17
  And it was a, a short story, a fantasy, short story.
• 34:21
  But again, there wasn't really much of a fantasy album for her, but that was about the grandmother and, um, having dementia, um, right.
• 34:29
  And yeah, that, I, I, again, I really, that's story.
• 34:33
  The first one I ever wrote.
• 34:34
  Probably not the best, but I always remember like getting email, like in Ignite when I was going through Feb and I was like, oh.
• 34:40
  Unbelievably because it felt like, yeah, someone's read something and thought, yeah, that's that.
• 34:45
  That's good.
• 34:47
  So that was the best, yeah, it's an amazing feeling.
• 34:49
  That's the best sort of bit of validation that you get.
• 34:53
  Um, it's a hard feeling to describe to non-writing friends.
• 34:56
  I assume you have non-writing friends in your life as well, and, and to tell them what that feels like to get that letter of acceptance or that public, like that notification that they wanna publish your story.
• 35:08
  Is like, because it doesn't happen for everyone.
• 35:11
  And I love, you know, I have the most supportive family and husband planet and I'm very lucky.
• 35:16
  But sometimes it's hard because, you know, when my first book got published, when I landed my agent, when all those big milestones happened, and he's like, but job honey.
• 35:26
  He doesn't really understand.
• 35:28
  He's like, well, didn't you say you were gonna do it?
• 35:30
  And then you went and did it.
• 35:30
  Like he just thinks I can do walk on water, which I wish I could, but he thinks I walk on water, which I love.
• 35:36
  But yeah, it's, it's not guaranteed that other people will ever understand our, our red.
• 35:42
  So you did something great there.
• 35:43
  Congratulations.
• 35:45
  Thank, um, okay.
• 35:46
  What's your best fantasy writing advice for those wanting to work in the genre?
• 35:51
  And then I'm gonna ask you for generic, your general advice in a second.
• 35:56
  So I think the best place to start is with the whale.
• 35:59
  You need to have an idea of your setting.
• 36:01
  And so one of the best ways to begin with that process is, is just to ask what if, what if until there was no more, no oceans or something like that, like the world.
• 36:13
  There's just like a few lakes, like something like that you, you start beginning to wonder then.
• 36:18
  What kind of people would live in this world?
• 36:19
  What kind of conflicts would there be in their life?
• 36:22
  And then all of a sudden you start add layer and layer and layer.
• 36:25
  And it all begins with a simple what if and just following different trails.
• 36:30
  And one of the main things is to not settle on the best idea.
• 36:34
  So you may go down one path and the question, but go back, ask it again and see where I picture, and then see how many different ideas you can come up with.
• 36:43
  And.
• 36:43
  Really sort of interrogate things because you set along an idea so that you know you're picking the right direction and the one that you're happy with.
• 36:50
  So that's what I would say.
• 36:53
  I love that.
• 36:54
  That's super helpful advice.
• 36:56
  I'm gonna add to that because they're gonna go away and write this world building exercise.
• 37:01
  The what if, and I just wanna remind our listeners that is not chapter one.
• 37:05
  You are not gonna put that three pages that you write as you're opening to your book.
• 37:09
  It does not count.
• 37:11
  It's brainstorming separately, but yes, thinking about that world and making decisions, because I find, especially as an editor, and I know that you edit as well, but, and as an editor I can tell if you haven't made a decision or you've thought, oh, I'll decide that later, and I read something about it, it's gonna feel so generic, a blend.
• 37:31
  I'm like, you haven't decided yet how this magic, sorry.
• 37:34
  Like you don't know.
• 37:36
  So make those decisions because even if you.
• 37:39
  Even if you make a decision and it's turns out to not work later or you wanna change it, you won't end up with these bland passages, which are placeholders for when you decide.
• 37:50
  Yeah, yeah.
• 37:51
  Do Richie's thing, go explore it.
• 37:53
  And what's your best general advice, fantasy or not?
• 37:56
  For writers that are just starting out?
• 38:00
  I would say the new writers try to capture the interview together.
• 38:05
  As much as possible, and I don't, I preserve it for as long as you can and there's a lot of things that will do derail you, uh, or try to derail you.
• 38:15
  Uh, imposter syndrome will probably kick in at some point and then you'll start to question whether you can do it.
• 38:21
  And tied to that, I'd say is keep your targets when you're starting out.
• 38:25
  Mind some you.
• 38:27
  Don't put too much pressure on yourself because if you start can make yourself to 200,000 word novels and you are gonna run into a lot of problems because it's gonna take a long time to write.
• 38:37
  The doubt is gonna creep in.
• 38:38
  You're probably gonna give up.
• 38:40
  So I think that's why you short stories are good because you can finish off most projects.
• 38:45
  You can start sending them out and if you bit of luck you, you might get some published and then I'll just set you on like a completely different path.
• 38:53
  Give you more confidence going into like a project, like a novel, and, and you'll often get feedback in during that process as well.
• 39:00
  That might help you with your larger projects.
• 39:03
  So amazing advice.
• 39:04
  Thank you so much, Richie.
• 39:06
  Where can we find you?
• 39:08
  Your podcast, your books, your novel, your novella, your short stories?
• 39:12
  Where can we find everything?
• 39:14
  The best place to go is richie billing.com and links for everything on there.
• 39:18
  You can also get everything on Patreon.
• 39:21
  Just search Richard Billing.
• 39:23
  There's not many rich billing, especially fantasy writers, so I'm not that hard on.
• 39:28
  And so you can, uh, Patriot is the best place.
• 39:32
  And then the Fantasy Writers Tool shed is the podcast.
• 39:35
  And they also have a book on writing fantasy called a Fantasy Writers Humble book, which has been offered amazing.
• 39:42
  So yeah, you can check that.
• 39:44
  Thank you so much for sharing all these resources, for Talking Fantasy with me today.
• 39:49
  It's been amazing to have you on the podcast.
• 39:52
  Thank you very much for writing.
• 39:53
  It's been lovely chatting.
• 40:02
  Thanks for tuning in to show.
• 40:03
  No, tell Writing with me, Suzy Vidori.
• 40:06
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• 40:10
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• 40:18
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• 40:32
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• 40:36
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• 40:41
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• 40:42
  Remember that book and your writing is going to open doors that you haven't even thought of yet, and I can't wait to help you make it the absolute best you're feeling called to write that book.
• 40:54
  Keep going and I'm gonna be right here cheering you on.
• 40:57
  See you again next week.